Welcome to my nightmare Vs Destroyer

[Mr Badguy]

I listened to both of these albums today, one after the other.

Both were produced by Bob Ezrin, who was very much Alice Cooper`s producer when Kiss worked with him to record "Destroyer".

"Destroyer" steals wholesale the bells and whistles production that Ezrin had developed with Alice, a total turnaround from Kiss`s first three rough and ready studio albums and the career saving "Alive!".

Both albums are pretty much viewed as the high points of Cooper and Kiss`s careers, "Welcome to my nightmare" launched Cooper`s career as a bona fide solo artist and Kiss consolidated the success of "Alive!" (after the release of "Beth", before that the album was stalling and was seen as a failure, a fact that`s often forgotten).

"Welcome..." is a helluva record: all killer, no filler. Written with the concept of a stage show in mind, it is an excellent collection of songs, a record that Alice really had to deliver on after splitting with the Alice Cooper band. Dick Wagner`s economic yet melodic solos on "Only women bleed" and "Steven" are brilliant and he could write great riffs like "Devil`s food", "Department of youth" and "Escape".

"Destroyer", in my opinion, sounds half baked. The songwriting is top quality, half the tunes would go on to from the back bone of Kiss concerts until the present day. However, the production is sometimes over the top when it doesn`t have to be. "Great expectations" is all style and very little substance and as good as "Detroit rock city" and "God of thunder" sound on the record, the stripped away live versions on "Alive II" blow them away.

There`s no real reason to compare these albums other than Bob Ezrin, but lets have some fun.

What`s your take?

[binnie]

Destroyer.

I don't have any real reason that can be backed up objectively, all I can say is that it cheers me up everytime I here it - one of my favourite party records. I agree that the stripped down versions on Alive II are killer too, but there's just not the same magic on those performances - they may be rawer and rock harder, but I love the originals.

Yes the production is OTT (especially in comparison to the earlier records) but then, Kiss is over the top too. "Great Expectations" is the album's week link, but I still enjoy it and never skip it either.

And that's not to take anything away from Alice, "Welcome...." is a landmark album, strong songs, strong performances, sounds great, great production, and the visions of taking it out as a stage show demonstrates an astounding artistic vision. On every category it beats "Destroyer", but I just don't get the same magic feeling from it.

I suppose my vote says more about me than the records.......

[Tiki-Tom]

Coop's Nightmare wins hands down. why? because, well..........................it is Cooper and we are talkin Kiss VS Cooper. I love Kiss and all but Alice kills Kiss.

[Terry]

Voted Destroyer because I've always had very little use for Alice Cooper.

[rustoffa]

Originally posted by Mr Badguy
There`s no real reason to compare these albums other than Bob Ezrin, but lets have some fun.

What`s your take?


If KISS had auditioned for Frank Zappa? Timeline inclusive? I doubt they would have made the cut.

Shock rock was an accident waiting to happen, and the chicken incident bolstered the myth. I'd venture to guess that alot of bands borrowed from the old Alice Cooper schtick....KISS?

Wake me up when the "Schools Out"/"Rock And Roll Over" poll happens!!
:D

[Matt White]

DESTROYER

Though...I HATE ERZIN

The ALICE COOPER BAND was STELLAR.....

without the band...Vince isn't that good....

[Shaun Ponsonby]

Nightmare.



Never been overly keen on Kiss.

[binnie]

Jeezus this is close!

I thought Kiss would walk it, shows how wrong I am....

[Shaun Ponsonby]

Why?

[binnie]

Well, I figured there would be a lot more devout Kiss fans around here for one thing.....

ALthough Alice is a legend (and I am a fan, as I said above), I always thought that he was more of an aquired taste. I didn't realise how strong his legacy still was: a pleasant surpirse I must say.

I wasn't casting apsersions on Alice's musical output by any means...

[Shaun Ponsonby]

Alice's CUNTribution to rock and roll would only be ignored by a closed-minded CUNT.

I know such a CUNT.

[binnie]

Originally posted by Shaun Ponsonby
Alice's CUNTribution to rock and roll would only be ignored by a closed-minded CUNT.

I know such a CUNT.

Is it the same one who doesn't like Dio? (re: The Heaven & Hell thread)

[Shaun Ponsonby]

No, thats Atomic Rob, hes pretty KEWL really.

This is someone in my real life.

[Vinnie Velvet]

http://www.newdigitalreporter.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44&g2_serialNumber=1

[franksters]

Originally posted by Vinnie Velvet
http://www.newdigitalreporter.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44&g2_serialNumber=1

definitly...

[SparkieD]

Nightmare. I love old Kiss, but Destroyer just doesn't do much for me. I hate "Great Expectations" with it's orchestrated background noise, "Beth" just gets on my damn nerves (never thought rock bands were supposed to do ballads) and they fucking destroyed a killer tune when they decided carousel music would be cool in the chorus of "Flaming Youth." There's a bomb or three on Nightmare too, but the good songs make up for it. I know there's orchestrated background noise on it, too, but at least it works for the Coop.

Now, I might've voted differently if RnR Over was a choice.

[katie]

Cooper wins it for me. Huge production, great arrangements.
But the well ran dry for a bit after its release.

KISS - To me they have always reminded me of bad 70's french variety show.

[Mr. Vengeance]

WTMN. I like Destroyer, but overall the tunes aren't as consistent as Alice's offering. To be honest, neither one is really even close to being my fave from either act.

[WACF]

I was into Kiss first...but yeah, Alice had a better album.

I just did not hear it until the 80s...the pleasure of growing up in a small prarie town with no real rock radio...everyone seemed to know who kiss was though. A buddy's parents used to blast Kiss all the time.

Beth pushed Kiss forward...as weak a track as it may seem every act needs it's top 40 song to appeal to the masses and get that exposure.

[Anonymous]

I like Kiss, yeah... but any Alice Cooper album is way, way better - fer me, of course - then any Kiss album.

Hell, even Constrictor and Rauise Yer Fist & Yell sound better to me than any Kiss album. I'm a Cooper-maniac, perhaps.

In the light of all this, it's really a no-brainer. Destroyer wins, by far.

Cheers! :bottle:

[Anonymous]

Er, sorry... Welcome to my Nightmare... :o

Cheers! :bottle:

[Tiki-Tom]

And unlike Kiss, Alice is still going strong. He's not touring just on his old shit alone. Nightmare rules.

[Shaun Ponsonby]

Thats true.

His new material doesn't match the likes of "...Nightmare", "Billion Dollar Babies" or "Killer", but, by most people's standards, its still pretty good ("Brutal Planet" and "The Eyes of Alice Cooper" in particular). Much better than the majority of new bands and also better than most people do after almost 40 years making albums.

[binnie]

Well, I'm very surprised.

Hats off to Cooper I suppose...

[Anonymous]

Top-hats off, actually.

The Coop rewlz. I hope I have the opportunity to attend one of his shows before he retires. Hopefully he won't for many, many more years.

Kiss? Nostalgia act.

Cheers! :bottle:

[Tiki-Tom]

Me and the mrs. have a couple of times. Well worth your time.

[binnie]

I'll catch him next time over here...

[Shaun Ponsonby]

I think he's got a new album oot this year (apparently titled "Along Came A Spider"), so you should get a chance.

He RULED last time.

[binnie]

Well, I'll definately be going then.


I've enjoyed his last couple of records actaully....

[Shaun Ponsonby]

Get the Montreux DVD, it was recorded on the last tour. Got a nice varied setlist.

These days it seems that he's CUNTcentrating on music a lil' more than effects (either that or his budget won't allow it).

In fact, last time Twisted Sister supported. Damn, that was a good night.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Both are great records, but I'll go with DESTROYER. First off, I'm a huge Kiss fan, and even though this doesnt hold a candle to RARO, Love Gun, KISS, HTH, etc., it's still first rate. One thing I do despise is that Ezrin taught Gene and Paul it doesnt matter if you use studio musicians now and then, as long as everyone thinks it's the band on record. I'm not just talking about Ace on Flaming Youth and Sweet Pain, or the Alive 2 4th side, or Peter on Dynasty and Unmasked.....Gene's hardly played bass on a Kiss album since 77'.....

[PumpedUpMidget]

Would have to go with Destroyer...My Alice favorites are Special Forces and From the Inside

[Tiki-Tom]

Originally posted by Bill Lumbergh
Gene's hardly played bass on a Kiss album since 77'.....

I feel real sorry for the stand in if thats the case. Those are by far, not the most complicated bass lines in the world.

Don't get me wrong. I love old Kiss as much as the next guy but if Chaim couldn't cut it playing that stuff then he was in bad shape.
I wasn't there so I can't be sure but more than likely that's Witz your hearin'. At least on Destroyer it most likely is. His sound or playin' style if you will, have been (for better or worse)pretty consistent over the years. On the other hand, you could really tell the difference when Ace and Peter had stand ins.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Tiki-Tom
I feel real sorry for the stand in if thats the case. Those are by far, not the most complicated bass lines in the world.

Don't get me wrong. I love old Kiss as much as the next guy but if Chaim couldn't cut it playing that stuff then he was in bad shape.
I wasn't there so I can't be sure but more than likely that's Witz your hearin'. At least on Destroyer it most likely is. His sound or playin' style if you will, have been (for better or worse)pretty consistent over the years. On the other hand, you could really tell the difference when Ace and Peter had stand ins.

Oh, Gene was more than capable of "doing the work", he was just too busy with other things.....often it was other band members playing bass on the tunes(Ace, Paul, Kulick etc.)

[Vinnie Velvet]

Originally posted by Bill Lumbergh
Oh, Gene was more than capable of "doing the work", he was just too busy with other things.....often it was other band members playing bass on the tunes(Ace, Paul, Kulick etc.)

I think Gene started seriously playing bass again on Revenge. Though even that may be up for dispute -- its possible Kulick handled most of it.

[Mr Badguy]

Eric Carr, Jean Beauvior also played bass and it was one of their roadies who played bass on "Shandi".

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Mr Badguy
Eric Carr, Jean Beauvior also played bass and it was one of their roadies who played bass on "Shandi".

Yep Tom Harper...."He had a better feel for the track" :rolleyes:

[Bill Lumbergh]

Shandi-
Paul:guitars, vocals
Holly Knight:Keyboards
Tom Harper:Bass
Anton Fig: Drums

[Roy Munson]

Alice is a fellow Conservative so I'll have to go with him on this one.

Plus, Paul Stanley is gay if you haven't heard.

[Tiki-Tom]

But we are talking about Destroyer:rolleyes: I'm sure Gene was in full bass player of Kiss mode on that album. I suppose he was too busy with Van Halen or others to even lay down his own bass tracks. I'm not debating his absence (on bass) later, but at this particular point in the Kiss timeline, I'm thinking it was him.

[Mr Badguy]

"God of thunder" sucks on the album, IMO.

Those walkie talkie voices annoy the fuck out of me and it sounds really slow.

On "Alive II" it sounds amazing.

[Shaun Ponsonby]

Originally posted by Mr Badguy
Jean Beauvior also played bass


Well, I didn't know that...

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Tiki-Tom
But we are talking about Destroyer:rolleyes: I'm sure Gene was in full bass player of Kiss mode on that album. I suppose he was too busy with Van Halen or others to even lay down his own bass tracks. I'm not debating his absence (on bass) later, but at this particular point in the Kiss timeline, I'm thinking it was him.

Gee, sorry there fucko, I'll make sure from now on I never veer off a little bit, oh dear me WTF was I thinking!!!!! :rolleyes:

[Tiki-Tom]

Originally posted by Bill Lumbergh
Gee, sorry there fucko, I'll make sure from now on I never veer off a little bit, oh dear me WTF was I thinking!!!!! :rolleyes:

What's the matter? Is it a heavy flow day? Dig your panties out of your camel toe. It ain't that big a deal. You're the one who speculated Gene didn't play on Destroyer. Just calling it as I see it.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Tiki-Tom
What's the matter? Is it a heavy flow day? Dig your panties out of your camel toe. It ain't that big a deal. You're the one who speculated Gene didn't play on Destroyer. Just calling it as I see it.

When the hell did I say that? I said since 77'...as in 1977(really after 77' since he didnt play bass on his solo and hardly at all on Dynasty)..Destroyer came out in 76....you came "out" in 85, if I remember right...Maybe the redneck edition of Destroyer came out in 77.......BTW it's not a big deal to ME, obviously since you went out of your way to roll your eyes at a comment about Kiss, it was to you....and love those oh so original "blasts"....... :rolleyes: Have a good one!

[Bill Lumbergh]

BTW I actually had a point in mentioning that stuff about Gene(Ezrins involvment in the project and how it influenced future Kiss recording sessions....) Now, lets calmly kick back and fire up "Sweet Ophelia" :D

[Tiki-Tom]

Originally posted by Bill Lumbergh
When the hell did I say that? I said since 77'...as in 1977(really after 77' since he didnt play bass on his solo and hardly at all on Dynasty)..Destroyer came out in 76....you came "out" in 85, if I remember right...Maybe the redneck edition of Destroyer came out in 77.......BTW it's not a big deal to ME, obviously since you went out of your way to roll your eyes at a comment about Kiss, it was to you....and love those oh so original "blasts"....... :rolleyes: Have a good one!

No, you don't remember right. It wasn't me, Dude. Sorry to disappoint. You've got to get this gayness issue outta your head. A pair of rolling eyes and you get all flustered. Don't know what happened to you in '85 ,but that experience must've left a really bad taste in your mouth. My condolences.

Never thought of myself as a redneck. Hell, come to think of it, I have had a "ho" down or two in my day, so you might be right.

In all seriousness, I rolled my eyes at your comment about Gene being too busy in my reference to Destroyer in post #33. I'm not the "stay on topic post police." I could give a fuck about that really. I'll leave that to the mods. But Geezus, talk about getting bent outta shape over nothing. I'd have hated to be around you on the playground.

You wanted to insult me. Point taken. Hope it was fun. You're just insulting another Kiss fan. I can hang.
Have yourself a good one!

Signed,
Fucko... that's MISTER Fucko to you:rolleyes:

[Tiki-Tom]

As for "Sweet Ophelia," I'm a huge old Kiss fan, but I've got my limits. Lester is not my bag. If you like it, rock on.

[pflo]

Originally posted by Shaun Ponsonby
Get the Montreux DVD, it was recorded on the last tour. Got a nice varied setlist.

These days it seems that he's CUNTcentrating on music a lil' more than effects (either that or his budget won't allow it).

In fact, last time Twisted Sister supported. Damn, that was a good night. Is putting "cunt" into words supposed to be funny? Jesus...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Dan]

Originally posted by pflo
Is putting "cunt" into words supposed to be funny? Jesus...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Get a Life.:rolleyes:

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Tiki-Tom
No, you don't remember right. It wasn't me, Dude. Sorry to disappoint. You've got to get this gayness issue outta your head. A pair of rolling eyes and you get all flustered. Don't know what happened to you in '85 ,but that experience must've left a really bad taste in your mouth. My condolences.

Never thought of myself as a redneck. Hell, come to think of it, I have had a "ho" down or two in my day, so you might be right.

In all seriousness, I rolled my eyes at your comment about Gene being too busy in my reference to Destroyer in post #33. I'm not the "stay on topic post police." I could give a fuck about that really. I'll leave that to the mods. But Geezus, talk about getting bent outta shape over nothing. I'd have hated to be around you on the playground.

You wanted to insult me. Point taken. Hope it was fun. You're just insulting another Kiss fan. I can hang.
Have yourself a good one!

Signed,
Fucko... that's MISTER Fucko to you:rolleyes:

All in fun bro....and as for WL.....a lot of Kiss fans actually dig that album, but I for one cant stand it other than listening to it now and then for a good laugh. Then again, I can throw on Hot In The Shade for that....I dont get bent out of shape on message boards, my friend....Have a good night:cool:

[Tiki-Tom]

Originally posted by Bill Lumbergh
All in fun bro....and as for WL.....a lot of Kiss fans actually dig that album, but I for one cant stand it other than listening to it now and then for a good laugh. Then again, I can throw on Hot In The Shade for that.....Have a good night:cool:

It's all good :cool:
I'll tell ya the one I throw on for Shits & Giggles,
Paul singing God of Thunder.
Man, I gotta laugh to keep from cryin:D

God Gave Rock 'n' Roll to You II works also.
they put Double Cheese on that burger.....;)

[Shaun Ponsonby]

Originally posted by pflo
Is putting "cunt" into words supposed to be funny? Jesus...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Its a Sheep Pen/Dump Trademark.

So, yes.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Shaun Ponsonby
Its a Sheep Pen/Dump Trademark.

So, yes.

Card carrying member of "Its always funny to work the word "cunt" in Nation" here..........

[Shaun Ponsonby]

Larvelly.

Let's have a nice salad.