Reviving the Vietnam War

[Warham]

Reviving the Vietnam War
Democrats are learning the hard way that despite misgivings about the war in Iraq, Americans still don’t care much for defeatism.

By Jonah Goldberg

There's a deep irony to the Democratic Party's dilemma over Iraq. For 30 years, the party's left-wing base has reflexively proclaimed every foreign policy challenge "another Vietnam." These voices rise and fall with America's fortunes. In 1991, again in 2003 and ever since, they've insisted Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam. They also claimed that Afghanistan was Pashtun for Vietnam. There were even some who insisted Kosovo was Serbo-Croatian for Vietnam and, of course, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Grenada were each feared to be Spanish for Vietnam. Like the old saw about Eskimos having a hundred words for snow, it seemed that anyplace the United States sends troops creates a new word for Vietnam.

(Illustration by Sam Ward, USA TODAY)

Indeed, two years ago — when the air was already thick with Vietnam clichés — I wrote in this space, "You get the sense that Earth could be invaded by Klingons and some editorialist would hear 'echoes of Vietnam' amidst their disruptor blasts."

So it shouldn't be as surprising as it seems to be that, lo and behold, the Democrats are behaving as if Iraq is Vietnam all over again. But it is only now dawning on the Democrats that the Vietnam War wasn't exactly their finest hour.

The Democratic pickle is exquisitely simple: In the past election, they ran as the anti-war party and promised to bring the war to a close, but, like the dog who finally catches the car fender, they're at a loss about what to do now. As Virginia's Rep. Jim Moran says of his fellow Democrats, they "want to make sure this is still President Bush's war," but the only way they can end the war is to take possession of it. The Democratic base thinks that'd be fine. But, one gets the sense, someone in the party's leadership understands that might be a problem.

Long-lasting myths

The Democrats are incapable of escaping the gravitational pull of the Vietnam myths they've nurtured for decades. At the same time, the liberal memory of the Vietnam War has become so gauzy and saccharine with nostalgia that they're unprepared to grapple with the downsides of their own all-purpose analogy. All that seems to matter is proving that the Iraq war not only has been lost but must be lost, lest the Vietnam worldview be invalidated. As my colleague Rich Lowry said in regard to Pennsylvania Democrat John Murtha's effort to sneakily thwart the Bush surge: "It used to be that the war had to end because it was a failure; now it must fail so that it can end." For example, Massachusetts' Sen. Edward Kennedy ridicules the notion that a withdrawal from Iraq would have grave humanitarian costs.

"I heard the same kinds of suggestions at the time of the end of the Vietnam War," Kennedy told NBC's Tim Russert, mocking the notion that we'd have a "great bloodbath" with more than 100,000 dead. "And for those of us that were strongly opposed to the war, (we) heard those same kinds of arguments."

Yes, but those arguments were right. Our withdrawal from Vietnam did contribute to a great bloodbath. More than a half-million Vietnamese died at sea fleeing the grand peace Kennedy and his colleagues orchestrated. And more than 1.2 million Cambodians died at the hands of the Khmer Rouge, thanks to the power vacuum created by our "humanitarian" withdrawal. Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., a presidential candidate, insists that a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq can't make things any worse. In 1975 he took a similar line: "The greatest gift our country can give to the Cambodian people is peace, not guns. And the best way to accomplish that goal is by ending military aid now." Someone rent Dodd a DVD of The Killing Fields.

Of course, the costs of defeat in Vietnam were hardly just humanitarian. America's loss at the hands of a small, comparatively weaker nation arguably prolonged the Cold War and has long served as an emboldening example to enemies eager to believe Uncle Sam has a glass jaw — from Saddam Hussein to Osama bin Laden.

In the wake of 9/11, Ayman al-Zawahri, bin Laden's lieutenant, warned: "O, American people, your government is leading you to a new losing war. O, U.S. people, your government was defeated in Vietnam and fled scared from Lebanon. It fled from Somalia."

The Democratic Party itself — once the leader in vigorous internationalism — has since Vietnam been perceived as fundamentally unreliable on foreign policy by many American voters. Indeed, someone in the party recognizes this, which is why Democrats are working so hard to avoid being seen as the primary authors of U.S. defeat in Iraq, the way they were perceived after the Vietnam War.

The New Yorker's George Packer wrote in 2004 that since its experience with Vietnam, "the Democratic Party has had no foreign policy." Though Democrats were eager to spout the language of liberal internationalism in the 1990s, Packer noted, the Clinton administration nonetheless "allowed a genocidal war to bleed away in the Balkans for two-and-a-half years before acting to end it."

Sealing a defeat

I don't think it's fair to say the Democrats have had no foreign policy — it's more that they've had lots of them. But Packer's invocation of Clinton's intervention in the Balkans illuminates an important point. Today, liberals proudly tout the Yugoslavian campaign as nigh upon the sole proof that Democrats believe America can use its military power as a force for good. Forgotten are the anti-war left's opposition to an American empire, Clinton's circumvention of the United Nations (at least Bush had U.N. resolutions to back him up), or the ups-and-downs of public opinion. All people remember is victory.

If President Bush's surge is successful, odds are Americans will think it was all worth it. If, on the other hand, the Democrats are successful at ending the war in defeat, it's not at all clear Americans will see our loss as the unambiguous triumph Kennedy remembers in Vietnam. Nor is it clear they'll congratulate Democrats for securing a sure defeat rather than chancing a possible victory.

Jonah Goldberg is editor at large of National Review Online. He is a syndicated columnist and a member of USA TODAY's board of contributors.
Posted at 12:16 AM/ET, March 06, 2007 in Foreign Affairs - Asia - Forum, Foreign Affairs - Middle East - Forum, Forum commentary, Goldberg, Iraq - Forum, Military issues - Forum, Politics, Government - Forum | Permalin

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/03/post_15.html

[hideyoursheep]

Another topic that you don't know dick about.

[Nickdfresh]

A true piece of shit, written by a pussy Neo Con chickenhawk, FOR NEOCON PUSSY CHICKENHAWKS...

"Let's go out there and win the big game boys!
http://www.middle-east-online.com/pictures/big/_19829_US_Iraq_wounded.jpg
C'mon bitches, you only served four tours!!

Get yer' artificial leg on soldier!
http://www.truthdig.com/images/diguploads/wounded_804.jpg

And when you get to Walter Reed, make sure you get the Decon rat poison!"

[hideyoursheep]

GET YOUR GOAT-SMELLIN' ASS BACK IN HERE, WARHAMSTER!

I'M NOT DONE PLAYIN' WITH YOOO!

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Reviving the Vietnam War
Democrats are learning the hard way that despite misgivings about the war in Iraq, Americans still don’t care much for defeatism.

By Jonah Goldberg


Jonah Goldberg is editor at large of National Review Online.

There's a big part of why you're ignorant, WartHamster. You never pay attention to news, you read op-ed's from the Weakly Standard, National Review, and Washington Post, aside from your paid membership newsletter from Limpbauls.

How many copies of "See, I told You So" have you fouled with your own man-yogurt?

Are you aware of how many of your heros have slithered out of service during the period this asspipe is using as a reference?
You have no credibility whatsoever.:monekyr:

[Steve Savicki]

Republican't Americans may not care because that attitude, intelligent level, and mentallity of the President that specific group of Americans looks up to has been drilled into their head... kind of like those that cheered Coulter on.

[LoungeMachine]

I love it....

WARPIG getting OWNED over and over in his own thread, and too PUSSY to back it up.

:gulp:

Glad you're back, fuckbag.

I'm going to enjoy watching everyone bitchslap your stupid ass.

:gulp:

[FORD]

Fuck Jonah Goldberg and his horse faced Nazi bitch mother who he rode in on.

[Steve Savicki]

Actually, I must apologize because not all Republicans are what I mentioned above. Sarge certainly isn't and "John Ashcroft" (http://rotharmy.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=56), though opinionated, is level-headed as well.

[Hardrock69]

Some people are rational and are grounded in reality. Unlike Warham The Droolboy and his God, LittleBoyBrian.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Steve Savicki
Actually, I must apologize because not all Republicans are what I mentioned above. Sarge certainly isn't and "John Ashcroft" (http://rotharmy.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=56), though opinionated, is level-headed as well.

I'v seen enough of asscrack to believe otherwise.

[hideyoursheep]

This entire thread should be dumped on lack of principle.

The NeoCunts hiding behind the brave men that fought in a war they themselves tried so hard to stay out of.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Warham
In 1991, again in 2003 and ever since, they've insisted Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam. They also claimed that Afghanistan was Pashtun for Vietnam. There were even some who insisted Kosovo was Serbo-Croatian for Vietnam and, of course, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Grenada were each feared to be Spanish for Vietnam.

That's just fucking drivel.

Who the fuck ever thought or said that the invasion of 20 000 troops in Grenada taking on a dozen unarmed students was like Vietnam?

Was the US going to get bogged down in the college cafateria for months whilst 1000s of bodybags were going home full of troops killed by stapler injuries and multiple pencil stab wounds.

The whole thing only lasted a few hours for fuck sake, The only way it was similar to Vietnam was that it was a big fucking embaressment.


How was Nicaragua like Vietnam? The US sending money to sick fuck thugs to help them murder innocent civilians and overthrow the democratically elected government there? It was kind of like El Salvador though where to defeat the rebels, the US equipped and trained an army which kidnapped and disappeared more than 30,000 people, and carried out large-scale massacres of thousands of old people women and children.

Whoever wrote this piece is a fucking oaf.

If he thinks those are shining proud examples of US foreign policy then he's a sick bastard.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
That's just fucking drivel.

Who the fuck ever thought or said that the invasion of 20 000 troops in Grenada taking on a dozen unarmed students was like Vietnam?

Was the US going to get bogged down in the college cafateria for months whilst 1000s of bodybags were going home full of troops killed by stapler injuries and multiple pencil stab wounds.


LAFF MY FUCKING ASS OFF!!!

The article this thread was created to display is nothing more than some kind of lame attempt by an inept NeoCon shill to attack those who are sensible enough to demand our troops be brought home from Iraq.

Nicaragua and El Salvador were like Vietnam in one aspect....the genocide was a result of the usual manipulation of third-world countries by the US.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I love it....

WARPIG getting OWNED over and over in his own thread, and too PUSSY to back it up.

:gulp:

Glad you're back, fuckbag.

I'm going to enjoy watching everyone bitchslap your stupid ass.

:gulp:

Owned?

All I've seen your lackeys do is make stupid insults.

Anyone can be an Internet tough guy.

I've yet to see anyone "own" Warham or refute the article in this thread.

:gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
That's just fucking drivel.

Who the fuck ever thought or said that the invasion of 20 000 troops in Grenada taking on a dozen unarmed students was like Vietnam?

Was the US going to get bogged down in the college cafateria for months whilst 1000s of bodybags were going home full of troops killed by stapler injuries and multiple pencil stab wounds.

The whole thing only lasted a few hours for fuck sake, The only way it was similar to Vietnam was that it was a big fucking embaressment.



:gulp:

Once again, Sesh displays a keen aptitude of revisionist history.

Either that, or his anti-American attitude shines forth once again.

Read about Grenada again, Sesh. This time from a non-UK source.

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Owned?

All I've seen your lackeys do is make stupid insults.

Anyone can be an Internet tough guy.

I've yet to see anyone "own" Warham or refute the article in this thread.

:gulp:

That's because you're a moron.

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Once again, Sesh displays a keen aptitude of revisionist history.

Either that, or his anti-American attitude shines forth once again.

Can't decide which, eh dummy con?


Read about Grenada again, Sesh. This time from a non-UK source.

:gulp:

What does he need to know, BigJamie'sCryin'?

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
That's because you're a moron.

:gulp:

blah blah blah :rolleyes:

My point is proven.

[Nickdfresh]

BTW, BigBlandBrianne, what is the thesis of the article. I did actually have difficulty figuring out what Jonah Doucheberg was trying to say, but then again, so did he, probably...

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Owned?

All I've seen your lackeys do is make stupid insults.

Anyone can be an Internet tough guy.

I've yet to see anyone "own" Warham or refute the article in this thread.

:gulp:

The "article" refutes itself.

Gimme a break with the "internet tough guy" shit.

All I can do is assure you my takes are my own, and there's nothing I couldn't tell you personally that I don't post here- in fact, I hold back a bit being online-it's a rather 1-dimentional outlet, and call me a 'noid, but too much info could lead to problems. Who knows what kind of trolls are out there- I gotta keep people honest.

If the best you 'tards can do is link op-ed peices and quote right-wing radio, you "own" yourselves.

Make me proud, Brian. As a fellow vet, I expect you to have an honest opinion and be able to defend it with your OWN thoughts.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
blah blah blah :rolleyes:

My point is proven.

Sure it is! What was your "point" again?

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
There's a big part of why you're ignorant, WartHamster. You never pay attention to news, you read op-ed's from the Weakly Standard, National Review, and Washington Post, aside from your paid membership newsletter from Limpbauls.

How many copies of "See, I told You So" have you fouled with your own man-yogurt?

Are you aware of how many of your heros have slithered out of service during the period this asspipe is using as a reference?
You have no credibility whatsoever.:monekyr:

This was posted in the USA Today, which is NOT a conservative rag at all.

I dunno, George W. Bush served more than that draft-dodger Bill Clinton ever did. Isn't he your hero, HideMySheep?

[Warham]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I love it....

WARPIG getting OWNED over and over in his own thread, and too PUSSY to back it up.

:gulp:

Glad you're back, fuckbag.

I'm going to enjoy watching everyone bitchslap your stupid ass.

:gulp:

Dude, I take weekends off, because I have a life, unlike yourself.

I know, I know, you've got nothing left besides this place, eh?

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
The "article" refutes itself.

Gimme a break with the "internet tough guy" shit.

All I can do is assure you my takes are my own, and there's nothing I couldn't tell you personally that I don't post here- in fact, I hold back a bit being online-it's a rather 1-dimentional outlet, and call me a 'noid, but too much info could lead to problems. Who knows what kind of trolls are out there- I gotta keep people honest.

If the best you 'tards can do is link op-ed peices and quote right-wing radio, you "own" yourselves.

Make me proud, Brian. As a fellow vet, I expect you to have an honest opinion and be able to defend it with your OWN thoughts.

Oh, bullshit. If Brian posted any thoughts that are his own, you'd call him a fag (which is your favorite word) or anything else your little mind could conjure up.

Just admit you hate conservatives and we'll move on.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
This was posted in the USA Today, which is NOT a conservative rag at all.

I dunno, George W. Bush served more than that draft-dodger Bill Clinton ever did. Isn't he your hero, HideMySheep?

It was WRITTEN by Jonah Goldberg, editor-at large for one of you guys' favorite jerk-off rags, The National Review. Like alot of those so-called jounalists Faux Noise has sit on their "panel of experts" when an actual jounalist would rip them a new one on their own network.

George Bush served? Really? Where? Noone seemes to know...
Do you happen to know what happens to NG who neglect to report for drill 'ham? THEY GET PUT ON ACTIVE DUTY!!!! But not your fucking hero..No. He gets his pappy's status to bail him out 'cause somehow he's more "important" than people like, for instance, my father.
Fuck him.

Is Clinton really my hero? Or is it more profiling from a clueless NeoCunt jerk-off? You gotta stop with the ASSuming, 'ham.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Oh, bullshit. If Brian posted any thoughts that are his own, you'd call him a fag (which is your favorite word) or anything else your little mind could conjure up.

Just admit you hate conservatives and we'll move on.


Wrong again, 'ham. I don't hate conservatives, I married one. :D

I just hate mindless conservatives...

What's on your mind, 'ham?

[Warham]

Who said he didn't report for drills, and even if he didn't, that he didn't have permission? Where's your proof?

Bring it, Sheep.

My father went to Vietnam too, but that doesn't mean I have to hold it against George W. Bush. I'd rather hold it against guys who ran off to Canada (or England) rather than stay here and join the NG.

You have a problem with the NG?

My profiling has been correct so far.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Oh, bullshit.

As soon as you lose your points you start with the swear words, church boy.:rolleyes:

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
Wrong again, 'ham. I don't hate conservatives, I married one. :D

I just hate mindless conservatives...

What's on your mind, 'ham?

Well, she's definately the better half then.

No, you just hate conservatives you don't know and would never want to know. On the internet, no less.

I can't remember the number of times on this forum I've disagreed with things the adminstration has done, only to continue to be called 'mindless', or 'Bushbot' or any other stupid term. I'm tired of it, but I'm not going to continue doing so only to be trampled continually.

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
As soon as you lose your points you start with the swear words, church boy.:rolleyes:

Keep my religion out of it.

It has nothing to do with this thread.

If you want to ad in religious references, I'd like to know what you believe, so that I can use it for cheap attacks.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Who said he didn't report for drills, and even if he didn't, that he didn't have permission? Where's your proof?

Bring it, Sheep.

My father went to Vietnam too, but that doesn't mean I have to hold it against George W. Bush. I'd rather hold it against guys who ran off to Canada (or England) rather than stay here and join the NG.

You have a problem with the NG?

My profiling has been correct so far.
My dad going isn't the point numnuts, it EVERYONE ELSE going and HE DOESN'T!! You fucking 'tards wanna defend that, and give the green light for assholes of that caliber to slander the name of an actual vet, namely Kerry? You fucking clowns must be mental...You can't have it both ways!! How is it OK for one rich kid to buy his way into the NG, then blow it off, but not for another to VOLUNTEER, then become a spokesman for anti-war vets? Fuck, you make me sick....

And you didn't just join the NG back in the day either, Einstein.:mad:

Now, you wanna start with the Kerry was a traitor bullshit? Tell me some of what your old man knows...And don't fucking lie.:mad:

Bring it hardass...

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Keep my religion out of it.

Maybe you should try keeping some of your religion in it.

You can bear false witness like nobody's buisness.

[Warham]

How did John Kerry get involved in this thread?

John Kerry lied about what he did in the service, and what he saw while he was over there! Christmas in Cambodia anyone?

That's where I get off saying it's OK to criticize him!

If he would have told the fucking truth about his time in the service, I would have called the fucking Swift Boat guys as liars, but they didn't lie!

I never called John Kerry a traitor! Where the hell did you come up with that??? I've always said I admired him for his service, but it ends there.

And when did I ever say I joined the NG? I've always admitted I never served in the armed forces. I don't have to lie here to get my points across.

Read my fucking post instead of just hitting the reply button.

[Warham]

And I'm not going to tell you what my old man told me about Vietnam, because you wouldn't want to hear it.

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
Maybe you should try keeping some of your religion in it.

Believe me, I do...

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
And I'm not going to tell you what my old man told me about Vietnam, because you wouldn't want to hear it.

Trust me pal, I have.

By many.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
How did John Kerry get involved in this thread?

John Kerry lied about what he did in the service, and what he saw while he was over there! Christmas in Cambodia anyone?

That's where I get off saying it's OK to criticize him!

If he would have told the fucking truth about his time in the service, I would have called the fucking Swift Boat guys as liars, but they didn't lie!

I never called John Kerry a traitor! Where the hell did you come up with that??? I've always said I admired him for his service, but it ends there.

And when did I ever say I joined the NG? I've always admitted I never served in the armed forces. I don't have to lie here to get my points across.

Read my fucking post instead of just hitting the reply button.

Go lay down for a week or two 'ham. You seem cuntfused.

[hideyoursheep]

Back to your hero blowing off drill....


Explain the timeline between drill while he was "in" the Texas NG, the Alabama NG, then college....

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
Trust me pal, I have.

By many.

Fantastic, that makes two of us.

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
Go lay down for a week or two 'ham. You seem cuntfused.

No, you are the one who's confused. You go on one of your fact-free attacks against me, then when I give you some facts, you try to change the subject.

You tell me where I called Kerry a traitor, pal, or else this thread will be a one-way track.

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
Back to your hero blowing off drill....


Explain the timeline between drill while he was "in" the Texas NG, the Alabama NG, then college....

No, first you are going to explain the Kerry stuff, then we'll get on to Bush.

He's not my hero, either, so get off it.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
John Kerry lied about what he did in the service, and what he saw while he was over there! Christmas in Cambodia anyone?

Care to explain how this could be a lie? Were all 200+ swiftboatvets for Bush on board at the time? Was the man whose life he saved lying about that too?

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
How did John Kerry get involved in this thread?

:eek:

[hideyoursheep]

Wait for it......


Originally posted by Warham
No, first you are going to explain the Kerry stuff, then we'll get on to Bush.


Whatever you say. cheif.



:rolleyes:

[Warham]

No official documentation of any accidental or other incursion by either of Kerry's boats has been discovered. In addition, none of Kerry's crewmates have confirmed ever being sent to Cambodia. One of Kerry's crewmen, Steven Gardner, asserted that it was physically impossible to cross the Cambodian border, as it was blocked and patrolled by PBRs (a type of patrol boat) [50]; however, Kerry's boat was evidently patrolling with PBRs as part of the mission in question [51]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
Wait for it......

Whatever you say. cheif.

:rolleyes:

I'm not sure why I waste valuable minutes of my life arguing with you.

It really serves me no purpose.

[Steve Savicki]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
GET YOUR GOAT-SMELLIN' ASS BACK IN HERE, WARHAMSTER!

I'M NOT DONE PLAYIN' WITH YOOO!
hideyoursheep for next Front Line moderator?

[hideyoursheep]

Do you realize what this actually says, if you read into it?

Don't take it as gospel, 'ham.

FYI.... themonkey was nowhere near Cambodia, or VietNam.

Or his flight suit........

Well, I forgot picture day......:rolleyes:

[Warham]

Originally posted by Steve Savicki
hideyoursheep for next Front Line moderator?

Who knows.

Maybe I'll pass that along to Pojo when I retire.

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
Do you realize what this actually says, if you read into it?

Don't take it as gospel, 'ham.

FYI.... themonkey was nowhere near Cambodia, or VietNam.

Or his flight suit........

Well, I forgot picture day......:rolleyes:

Well, 'themonkey' didn't fabricate or embellish what he did while he was in the service either.

What's your point?

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
It really serves me no purpose.


Much like your beloved pResident....

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Well, 'themonkey' didn't fabricate or embellish what he did while he was in the service either.

What's your point?


What have you done to my ability to post?

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
Much like your beloved pResident....

Alright, Nick. Whatever you say.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Well, 'themonkey' didn't fabricate or embellish what he did while he was in the service either.

What's your point?

Uh, Yes. He did.

George Jones made more appearances than that yellow sumbitch.:mad:

You will never know whether or not Kerry was actually in Cambodia.
You choose to believe the Bushwhackers.

They don't know for sure either, and if they did, he still wouldn't have been there.
You don't get it, do you?

What year did this allegedly not take place, BTW?

[hideyoursheep]

Schachte seems to change his story whenever the GOP needs him to "remember"....

In 2003, Schachte made no mention of ever being on Kerry's boat, but said there was a "firefight" and that Kerry "got hit"...


In Aug. 2004 Schachte stated he was the COMMANDER of Kerry's boat...
Fucking NeoCon Liars!!!!!!!!

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Who knows.

Maybe I'll pass that along to Pojo when I retire.

You can't replace a snake with a tiger, 'ham.:D

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Fantastic, that makes two of us.

Yet you copied someone else's work again. Trying to link the Nam anti- war movement with EVERY military action since, which is what your copied homework did, and it's ridiculous. I wish you would read it first.


What was the point of this thread, 'ham? You're funnelled perception of the world make you think because Iraq was a premeditated buissness venture carried out by BushCo that Americans are anti military? Please explain. I want you opinion.

If you can form one.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
This was posted in the USA Today, which is NOT a conservative rag at all.

I dunno, George W. Bush served more than that draft-dodger Bill Clinton ever did. Isn't he your hero, HideMySheep?

Jonah Golddouche is also an editor for the Nat'l Review (I think), and a whorish right wing pundit that appears on CNN occasionally...

And Clinton never "dodged the draft."

His number simply never came up after he received education deferments...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Who said he didn't report for drills, and even if he didn't, that he didn't have permission? Where's your proof?

Bring it, Sheep.

My father went to Vietnam too, but that doesn't mean I have to hold it against George W. Bush. I'd rather hold it against guys who ran off to Canada (or England) rather than stay here and join the NG.

You have a problem with the NG?

My profiling has been correct so far.

The problem isn't with the ANG, the "problem" was that the Nat'l Guard served as the means to avoid active duty in Vietnam by the well-connected elites.

It was no more "honorable" than going to Canada...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Keep my religion out of it.

It has nothing to do with this thread.

If you want to ad in religious references, I'd like to know what you believe, so that I can use it for cheap attacks.

Oh look, Warpig can get personal and throw flaming lowblows, but never talk about how he's a total hypocrite...

After reading post upon post of yours War, I'm pretty sure you never ask yourself, "what would Jesus do?"

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
The problem isn't with the ANG, the "problem" was that the Nat'l Guard served as the means to avoid active duty in Vietnam by the well-connected elites.

It was no more "honorable" than going to Canada...

Heh...it was even "less" honourable because he ran off to Alabama....instead of Canada...

At least someone who went to Canada left the country instead of insulting the integrity of the US Armed Forced by hiding out IN the country....
:rolleyes:

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Warham
If you want to ad in religious references, I'd like to know what you believe, so that I can use it for cheap attacks.


Ha....ah...ha.....haha....hahaha...

THis is your new title:

WARHAM
MINISTER OF CHEAP ATTACKS

:D

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
green light for assholes of that caliber to slander the name of an actual vet, namely Kerry?

Kerry was a Vietnam candy-ass.

Three minor wounds about the severity of a paper-cut and he was out of there in five months. Others got wounded quite a bit more severely and did their full tour of 12-13 months.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Warham

If he would have told the fucking truth about his time in the service, I would have called the fucking Swift Boat guys as liars, but they didn't lie!

I never called John Kerry a traitor!

I've called him a traitor.

He IS one.

Not for his-shortened paper-cut wounds in Vietnam, but what he did when he came home.

John Kerry is disgraceful.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh


And Clinton never "dodged the draft."

His number simply never came up after he received education deferments...

Kind of like that National Guard thing, huh?

BTW...how many NG and ANG personnel were deployed to Vietnam.
Find out before you mock them any further.

[Hardrock69]

If anyone here is a traitor it is GEORGE W. BUSH.

If you support him, you are a traitor as well.

One thing you do not understand is that there were numerous other soldiers who were wounded even less than Kerry and were out of Vietnam.

Poor widdul boy brucie....when he grows up he wants to be a fucking Nazi...
:rolleyes:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
If anyone here is a traitor it is GEORGE W. BUSH.

If you support him, you are a traitor as well.

One thing you do not understand is that there were numerous other soldiers who were wounded even less than Kerry and were out of Vietnam.

Poor widdul boy brucie....when he grows up he wants to be a fucking Nazi...
:rolleyes:

Do you have kids? (I guess mutant turds are able to, right? :D )

Let them post for you.

I'm sure they can come up with something more intelligent than you've managed to pull out of your ass since you've been registered here.

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Kerry was a Vietnam candy-ass.

Pissing on the Navy as a bunch of candy-asses again, poop-deck swabber?

I know you must be ashamed of yourself, but try not to project...


Three minor wounds about the severity of a paper-cut and he was out of there in five months. Others got wounded quite a bit more severely and did their full tour of 12-13 months.

Three more "minor wounds" that Dumbya received while gallantly defending El Paso against the North Vietnamese Army, in a fighter that was all but useless in Vietnam, in a service that was rarely, if ever, activated (USANG assigned to NORAD).

And he left early because he was disgusted the way the War was damaging America's national interests and young men.

Something the vast majority of your chickenshithawk political 'heroes' know nothing about...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Kind of like that National Guard thing, huh?

BTW...how many NG and ANG personnel were deployed to Vietnam.
Find out before you mock them any further.

Really? Which ones? How many?

Your semantical overreaching is just beyond pathetic...

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
I've called him a traitor.

He IS one.

Not for his-shortened paper-cut wounds in Vietnam, but what he did when he came home.

John Kerry is disgraceful.

What did he do wrong, Brian? I think the least you can do is back up your claim....for once.

BTW, How's your "paper cuts", ya dud?!:p

[hideyoursheep]

One more time for those of you like Brian and 'Hamster, who are in total denial......


Originally posted by hideyoursheep
Do you happen to know what happens to NG who neglect to report for drill 'ham? THEY GET PUT ON ACTIVE DUTY!!!! But not your fucking hero..No. He uses his pappy's status to bail him out 'cause somehow he's more "important" than people like, for instance, my father.(or even 'ham's)
Fuck him.

...And you fucking KNOW it's the truth.:mad:

...but you'll never address this little issue, will you?

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Once again, Sesh displays a keen aptitude of revisionist history.

Either that, or his anti-American attitude shines forth once again.

Read about Grenada again, Sesh. This time from a non-UK source.

:gulp:

To be quite honest I can't be fucking bothered. If you have some great source apart from the Clint Eastwood movie please post it.

Greneda was a fucking joke.

[Nickdfresh]

Grenada was a fucking joke...

[Hardrock69]

Grenada was a fucking joke...and still is.

Just like littleboybrucie. All he does is try to recreate an argument clinic type atmosphere...

He WISHES he could back up anything he says, but he does not want anyone to figure out he is ignorant.....even though we figured it out years ago.

Warham looks up to this sad bastard...and thinks of him as some sort of teacher....and Ham has been a good student....he tries to emulate littleboybrucie, and ends up looking just as ignorant.

Oh well.

Whatever.

They provide entertainment, and for the rest of us also are a good means of practicing the fine art of verbally slaughtering easy prey....

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Do you have kids? (I guess mutant turds are able to, right? :D )

Let them post for you.

I'm sure they can come up with something more intelligent than you've managed to pull out of your ass since you've been registered here.

:gulp:

What? You can't do better than this?....

Brian..

Do you have a brain?.....Let it post for you.....

Rather than trying to drag shit out of someone else's ass and claiming it's yours.:rolleyes:

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Grenada was a fucking joke...and still is.

Just like littleboybrucie. All he does is try to recreate an argument clinic type atmosphere...

He WISHES he could back up anything he says, but he does not want anyone to figure out he is ignorant.....even though we figured it out years ago.

Warham looks up to this sad bastard...and thinks of him as some sort of teacher....and Ham has been a good student....he tries to emulate littleboybrucie, and ends up looking just as ignorant.

Oh well.

Whatever.

They provide entertainment, and for the rest of us also are a good means of practicing the fine art of verbally slaughtering easy prey.... I doubt Grenada was a joke to those who took part, but if that's your take,it's your take.

I just wanna clarify that Bri and 'Ham aren't very good at what they do in this forum....seems to this man they mostly take stabs in the dark and never have any basis on which to back up their claims....I'm trying to squeeze it out of you two, but I never get any substance...If you're conservative, fine. Liberal, that's OK....MOR with a difference of opinion, I'll listen. But no one in their right mind can honestly defend the actions of this so-called Commander-in-Chief or his administration solely because he's Republican. If you do,be prepared to defend your stance, 'cause you owe it to the real Americans. :cool:

[Hardrock69]

Let me put it this way...Grenada was a 'training excercise'.

Better?

Yeah even though you have only been posting here for 2 months, you have easily seen what BigBadHam are all about.

All fluff...lotsa 3rd-grade name-calling...nothing to back up their claims, and a refusal to accept reality (much like permanent residents of the darkest dungeons of the Institute For The Criminally Insane).

It truly is useless to explain to them how the world governments truly operate,
and are so delusional they cannot learn anything because they think they know everything, therefore they live in a NeoCon FantasyLand that has no basis in fact....well, it has it's basis in the Instructional Manual For NeoCon Sheeplicans....

Their greatest fantasy wish is to be butt-raped by Donald Rumsfeld while speeches by Hitler blare over their 5.1 Surround Sound system.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Let me put it this way...Grenada was a 'training excercise'.

Better?

Honestly, I dunno. That was before my time.
I do know there were alot more 'Nam vets still in there during my first few years....was with 1 guy I think that took part (Grenada) with some strange-looking airborne combat patch....mentioned alot of commo problems. Somebody out there prolly knows the unit I'm referring to..

..anyways.....

:p

[Nickdfresh]

Grenada was a "feel good operation (Urgent Fury)" devised and carried out largely to draw attention away from the Beirut USMC Barracks bombing...

There was some experience gained: mainly that the four services couldn't talk to each other on their incompatible communications gear. But it wasn't a great showcase for the special ops (four SEALs drowned, several were killed in an intel failure as they were sent in understrength to take an airfield. And the Delta Force was also inappropriately used as massed combat infantry rather than the highly skilled specialists they were/are).

It was a highly political operation, rife with "showcasing the superstars" mentality bullshit.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
It was a highly political operation, rife with "showcasing the superstars" mentality bullshit.

Bwaha....

He most certainly weren't no "superstar".....


His ol' lady on the other hand........

Had a talent.....

[Nickdfresh]

I mean they used a disproportionate number of special operations forces that really weren't required.

They also had to get every service a piece of the glory pie.

Shit, I think a bunch of SEALs ditched their weapons and uniforms, and had to be rescued!

Not their finest hour...

And airborne drops on a tiny island? WTF for? to cut off the Grenadian armored divisions?

They just need some Marines with a mop...

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I mean they used a disproportionate number of special operations forces that really weren't required.

They also had to get every service a piece of the glory pie.

Shit, I think a bunch of SEALs ditched their weapons and uniforms, and had to be rescued!

Not their finest hour...

And airborne drops on a tiny island? WTF for? to cut off the Grenadian armored divisions?

They just need some Marines with a mop...

Yeah, I guess sometimes you gotta drive the car before you can tell what needs fixed. During the race wouldn't be a good idea.....
I do remember my dumbass older brother coming home just before I left to go trying to use the "I just got back" line to get laid....didn't work, of course.....and he wasn't "there"...some 3rd AD foreward unit..I think it was Elvis' old outfit. The REAL Elvis....

[hideyoursheep]

Where are you?....



Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Kerry was a Vietnam candy-ass.

Three minor wounds about the severity of a paper-cut and he was out of there in five months. Others got wounded quite a bit more severely and did their full tour of 12-13 months.

[hideyoursheep]

YOO- HOOO!


Originally posted by hideyoursheep
What did he do wrong, Brian? I think the least you can do is back up your claim....for once.

BTW, How's your "paper cuts", ya dud?!:p

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
I've called him a traitor.

He IS one.

Not for his-shortened paper-cut wounds in Vietnam, but what he did when he came home.

John Kerry is disgraceful.

Where are you?...

You got some 'splainin' to do...

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian


BTW...how many NG and ANG personnel were deployed to Vietnam.
Find out before you mock them any further.


Get the fuck in here, dickless.:mad:

[studly hungwell]

Another vietnam? I don't know. It doesn't really matter now does it? I mean we are there.....don't we have to win? I know this line of thinking totally disgusts many Americans.....who see the world as a mirror of themselves. It is not.....it doesn't think like you, it doesn't feel like you and it will bite your ass if it senses fear or weakness. When they drug our dead, naked men through the streets and we did nothing...,..we asked for it. In my lifetime it used to be a big deal to be an American citizen walking this earth. Now, if you find yourself abroad, you better keep that secret close to the vest. A guerilla was is costly on both sides but it serves one purpose.....to break the will of the opposition. Man, I tell ya.....its working.

[Nickdfresh]

What about other peoples' civil wars?

[studly hungwell]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
What about other peoples' civil wars?

I don't know dude...if the enemy percieves weakness we may be inviting more aggression. It's a shitty situation all around. I don't think it is wise to advertise such polar opinions between the congress and the president on this issue. A lot of bickering could be done behind the scenes. There will be no graceful exit from Iraq. We need to make sure it is a strong one.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by studly hungwell
When they drug our dead, naked men through the streets and we did nothing...,..

What are you talking about?

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by studly hungwell
I don't know dude...if the enemy percieves weakness we may be inviting more aggression. It's a shitty situation all around. I don't think it is wise to advertise such polar opinions between the congress and the president on this issue. A lot of bickering could be done behind the scenes. There will be no graceful exit from Iraq. We need to make sure it is a strong one.

We've already won.

We have accomplished what we set out to do....twice.

WMD's?....okay, there weren't any, next....

Saddam, his sons and the Baath Party?..Gone. Now what.

Democracy? WTF????

Their problem.

Mount up and move out.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
What are you talking about?

I think he's talking about Somalia.

And we did do something...;)

[studly hungwell]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I think he's talking about Somalia.

And we did do something...;)

Look, man....I don't know it all and apparently I am ignorant to the response in Somalia. This may sound shitty but it's not meant to be. If we did respond I am ignorant of it. Also, the campaign in the former Yugoslavia..,...Clinton took ground troops 'off the table'. Our fly boys weren't permitted to fly below 10,000 feet or so I gather. Could one assume that America will not tolerate casualties? Fuck that word....I hate that word. Deaths! Could one assume from the actions taken during these two conflicts that America would not tolerate the death of their soldiers? Know your enemy.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Heh...it was even "less" honourable because he ran off to Alabama....instead of Canada...

At least someone who went to Canada left the country instead of insulting the integrity of the US Armed Forced by hiding out IN the country....
:rolleyes:

Bush did nothing to destroy the integrity of the Armed Forces while he served, Mr. Rather.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by studly hungwell
Know your enemy.

He's freeloading in the goddamed White House, and letting his real boss rape the National Treasury!


That lily-livered sumbitch! :mad:

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Oh look, Warpig can get personal and throw flaming lowblows, but never talk about how he's a total hypocrite...

I don't toss any more lowblows than anyone else here. In fact, I toss less.

At least I can call people by their actual handles, without resorting to third grade slings.

I love you too, NICK.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Bush did nothing to destroy the integrity of the Armed Forces while he served, Mr. Rather.

Hard for him to add or subtract from the integrity of something he played no part in, Einstein. :rolleyes:

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
Hard for him to add or subtract from the integrity of something he played no part in, Einstein. :rolleyes:

Well, when you give me proof he wasn't in the Reserves, then I'll believe you.

Until then...

:crickets chirping:

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
I don't toss any more lowblows than anyone else here. In fact, I toss less.

At least I can call people by their actual handles, without resorting to third grade slings.

I love you too, NICK. Can you carry on a conversation with yourself somewhere else?

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
Can you carry on a conversation with yourself somewhere else?

You can leave any time you like if you don't like what I say.

I thought you enjoyed it around here.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by studly hungwell
Look, man....I don't know it all and apparently I am ignorant to the response in Somalia.

It's not that you're "ignorant."

But there is speculation that the Warlord most responsible, Aidid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Farah_Aidid), was mysteriously assassinated by sniper fire not long after the debacle of "Blackhawk Down."

Speculation runs rampant, but he was killed on the same day the operation's commanding US general retired, so.....



This may sound shitty but it's not meant to be. If we did respond I am ignorant of it. Also, the campaign in the former Yugoslavia..,...Clinton took ground troops 'off the table'. Our fly boys weren't permitted to fly below 10,000 feet or so I gather. Could one assume that America will not tolerate casualties? Fuck that word....I hate that word. Deaths! Could one assume from the actions taken during these two conflicts that America would not tolerate the death of their soldiers? Know your enemy.

I understand what you are getting at. This is a leftover from the Vietnam War, and largely driven by the 90's vintage military senior command (who were privates, lieutenants, and captains in Vietnam), not necessarily Clinton.

But I think the Iraq War debacle shows we are willing to take casualties and spend money (blood and treasure) when we feel threatened to the point of irrationality...

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Well, when you give me proof he wasn't in the Reserves, then I'll believe you.

Until then...

:crickets chirping:


Depends on what his definition of the word "in" is.......

Harriett Miers knows...she spent alot of time "cleaning up" his record before others could see it.

It's already a thread.....go and see....

[Warham]

Did she clean up what his commanding officers said years ago as well?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
I don't toss any more lowblows than anyone else here. In fact, I toss less.

At least I can call people by their actual handles, without resorting to third grade slings.

I love you too, NICK.

~smooches~ War.:)

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
You can leave any time you like if you don't like what I say.

I thought you enjoyed it around here.
You aren't saying a goddam thing!

You have NEVER said a goddam thing!

You jumped in with shit about nick....that had nothing to do with where the conversation was going....

Jesus Cruise, you're thickheaded!

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Did she clean up what his commanding officers said years ago as well?

The Commanding officers at the time never heard of him...

Now they're dead.

Nice try.

Your serve.

[Warham]

Originally posted by hideyoursheep
You aren't saying a goddam thing!

You have NEVER said a goddam thing!

You jumped in with shit about nick....that had nothing to do with where the conversation was going....

Jesus Cruise, you're thickheaded!

I think I may be off here, but this is a MESSAGE BOARD, not a CHAT ROOM. Therefore, I can respond to any post in this THREAD of POSTS at any time, out of order.

Your serve, bucko.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
I think I may be off here...

What's new......:rolleyes:

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Warham
Well, when you give me proof he wasn't in the Reserves, then I'll believe you.

Until then,I'll just keep looking like an ass, because what I meant was the ANG...sometimes I doesn't think.....

*drool dripping on the keypad* :dork:

[Phil theStalker]

Originally posted by Steve Savicki
Republican't Americans may not care because that attitude, intelligent level, and mentallity of the President that specific group of Americans looks up to has been drilled into their head... kind of like those that cheered Coulter on.
Kinda like HITLER!

And his henchmen...and now henchwomen...aff u can call Coulter a woman, y'know wot I mean?

WARPIG=P'WND! AGIN!

Damd dat was SWEET!


:spank:

PS Stevie, ur an Army Donor. Wot did u donor? A kidney f4or Eddie? huh Joe Rogan could use a brain donor. If u donate Joe a head he said he'd like a soft o1ne, butt aff tit's a brain he'd like a slow o1ne, See wot you can do.

[Phil theStalker]

Originally posted by Warham
I think I may be off here, but this is a MESSAGE BOARD, not a CHAT ROOM. Therefore, I can respond to any post in this THREAD of POSTS at any time, out of order.

Your serve, bucko.
30-love, and a fight wit John McEnron.

Wot did u donate, your soft head or your slow brain?


:spank: