UK army probes alleged torture in Iraq

[lucky wilbury]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040430/325/esid9.html

UK army probes alleged torture in Iraq
By Michael Holden


LONDON (Reuters) - A probe has been launched into allegations British soldiers tortured Iraqi prisoners, a day after similar revelations involving U.S. troops received widespread condemnation.

Britain's army chief General Sir Mike Jackson ordered an immediate inquiry after it emerged that the Daily Mirror in its Saturday editions was to publish photos of British soldiers abusing prisoners.

The paper told Reuters the images included one of a British soldier urinating on a crouching, hooded Iraqi.

"I am aware of the allegations which have been made today of abuse of prisoners by British soldiers in Iraq," Jackson said in a statement.

"The allegations are already under investigation. If proven not only is such appalling conduct clearly unlawful it clearly contravenes the British army's high standards.

"If proven the perpetrators are not fit to wear the queen's uniform. They have besmirched the good name of the army and its honour."

The British probe comes after U.S. President George W. Bush said he was "deeply disgusted" by photos released this week showing American troops abusing Iraqi prisoners held at the Abu Ghraib prison, once a notorious centre of torture and executions under ousted President Saddam Hussein.

The U.S. military has brought criminal charges against six soldiers relating to accusations of abuses from November and December 2003 on some 20 detainees, including indecent acts with another person, maltreatment, battery, dereliction of duty and aggravated assault.

Prime Minister Tony Blair, who had earlier strongly condemned the abuse involving U.S. soldiers, gave his backing to the army's investigation.

"The prime minister fully endorses both the statement by General Sir Michael Jackson and the action he is taking as well as the speed with which the army is acting," his spokesman said.

"The prime minister agrees that allegations of this nature are treated most seriously, but they should not be taken as a reflection of the general behaviour of coalition forces and the work they are doing with the Iraqi people."

Britain's forces in Iraq, concentrated in the south of the country around Basra, have previously been praised for their conduct towards the Iraqi people.

There have been previous inquiries into allegations of abuse against British soldiers in Iraq, but none have warranted such a high-profile response from authorities.

The human rights charity Amnesty International said it had warned U.S. and British authorities in Iraq that captives were being abused.

"We have talked to ex-prisoners, who say when they were taken into custody they were hooded and beaten, sometimes numerous times and subjected on some occasions to psychological torture and acts of sexual humiliation," Amnesty's Neil Durkin told Sky News.

"They (the provisional authority) simply have not acted on these reports. There is on the face of it a pattern."

[ELVIS]

Oh bullshit!

The problem is that they have the privilege of being prisoners...

They should have been eliminated...

We wouldn't have this problem...

It's all a bunch of PC bullshit...

[Mr Grimsdale]

Those soldiers were complete idiots. They have brought shame on the most highly decorated unit in the Army and made things more difficult for all the troops out there.

They had the training, they knew their responsibilities and they acted like morons.

To re-iterate something Elvis and I both said yesterday it comes down to common sense.

A - They should have had the common sense to know better.
B - They should have had the common sense not to take pictures if they really wanted to do this.

[ELVIS]

People love cameras...

[FORD]

Michael Jackson's British now? :confused:

[BigBadBrian]

British soldier pissing on an Iraqi POW:

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/mirror/may2004/2/2/00070B15-4CBB-1093-953F80BFB6FA0000.jpg

[BigBadBrian]

Sesh, you had plenty of comments about the US incident. Anything you'd like to add about this? Hmmm?

[Seshmeister]

Ha you're gonna love this because it makes me look as though I'm being biased but the CBS pictures were checked for 2 weeks, these pics were put in the tabloid newspaper within a couple of hours and may well be fake.



BBC defence correspondent Paul Adams says sources close to The Queen's Lancashire Regiment are suspicious of some details in the photographs.

He says they believe they may not even have been taken in Iraq.

They believe the rifle is an SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq.

They say soldiers in Iraq wore berets or hard hats - and not floppy hats as in the photos.

They also believe the wrong type of Bedford truck is shown in the background - a type never deployed in Iraq.

Our correspondent said the regiment concerned had suffered a difficult tour in Iraq, with charges expected in the case of a man beaten to death in custody.

Colonel Bob Stewart, who commanded British forces in the Balkans, told BBC News Online he could not say whether the photos were genuine.


There is no place in our regiment for individuals capable of such appalling and sickening behaviour

As well as questions over the equipment, he said there were also discrepancies over clothing and the captive's condition.

"The shirt looks like a football shirt. Is that the sort of shirt that a captive might be wearing, slightly silky with an Iraqi flag?

"Why is it not dirty and dishevelled, why is the man not showing some signs of damage after eight hours of beatings?

"Why would the soldiers be wearing webbing that is undone? Normally soldiers are very particular about that."

But Colonel Stewart said regardless of the pictures' authenticity, the damage done to Iraqi and Arab opinion would act as a recruiting sergeant for insurgents.

"What happens to the next British soldier who is taken hostage?"



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3678221.stm

[Dr. Love]

Hey, if I can't piss on Iraqi POWs at my job, I don't want these guys doing it on theirs!


Fuck, share the Iraqis, goddamn.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Ha you're gonna love this because it makes me look as though I'm being biased but the CBS pictures were checked for 2 weeks, these pics were put in the tabloid newspaper within a couple of hours and may well be fake.



Biased? No, not you. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


BTW - I wasn't referring to just one photo. Do you categorically deny any mistreatment of Iraqis has taken place by British troops?

[Seshmeister]

Of course not.

But I don't think we should be there at all unless under the auspices of the a UN peacekeeping force.

I would argue that the British are better at police actions than the US in part because they have far more experience in dealing with situations like that.

The British have had much better relationships with the Iraqis in the South by taking a softly softly approach.

That prick Paul Bremmers ego in overreacting to criticism in the Iraqi press has caused most of the recent problems.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Of course not.

But I don't think we should be there at all unless under the auspices of the a UN peacekeeping force.



The UN is a miserbale failure.......Rwanda, for example. Most of the members of the Security Council won't agree to anything unless there is profit involved. :gulp:

[Seshmeister]

Or critical of Israel in which case the US vetos.

Maybe it's crap but it's all we've got.

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
They believe the rifle is an SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq.

A lot of the reserve units still use the SA80A1 rifle pictured.

The best evidence that the photo's are faked is that the type of truck depicted was never sent to Iraq. Also the quality of the pictures is of too high a quality, they're absolutely pin sharp, the prisoner is very clean and the shot of the guy shoving the rifle put in the prisoner knackers has a very staged look (something akin to Deirdres' Photo Casebook) about it.

Of course this doesn't mean that UK soldiers didn't do something like this only that those pictures are unlikely to be for real.

Also a good defence is that the Daily Mirror is a well know leftie pinko tabloid and would do anything to harm the reputation of the Army. I call that line the JA defence. :)

[Other-defcon]

I don't think the Brits to be involved in this bullshit.
To be against war is one thing.
To dishonour people are doing in the best way their job since the debut of this conflict, is another one.

I don't believe it, I don't buy...

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Other-defcon
I don't think the Brits to be involved in this bullshit.
To be against war is one thing.
To dishonour people are doing in the best way their job since the debut of this conflict, is another one.

I don't believe it, I don't buy...

Then open your damned eyes.

[Mr Grimsdale]

So you accept that the American military might just have some problems too?

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by FORD
Michael Jackson's British now? :confused:

...and his nickname in the Army is Darth Vader.

I kid you not.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Mr Grimsdale
, the prisoner is very clean

He's not just clean he's wearing a brand new t-shirt with an old Iraqi flag on it.

The Sunnis in the South where the British are would never wear a t-shirt with a Saddam flag on it.

The latest theory I heard was thet the CIA set up the pictures to deflect criticism from the US but that is a bit too FORDEsque for me.

I think it was set up for the money.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Mr Grimsdale
So you accept that the American military might just have some problems too?

I've never said they didn't. :gulp:

[rustoffa]

It's mind numbing. Welcome to the age of imbedded journalists, sensationalism, and an educated human collective so riddled with concerns of appearing "too far left" or "too far right" they can't walk down the middle of a fucking sidewalk. A broomstick up the ass pales in comparison to "ethnic cleansing". (sorry,no first hand footage) A pile of suspects resembling a pyramid pales in comparison to Mao's Or Pol's monolithic piles of flesh. (they're still excavating) Man oh man....some footage of Castro's "good ol' days" would make that miscreant group of AMERICAN soldiers look like the guardian angels. Hanging out in uncertain, horrific, doublecross ridden squalor is bound to take it's toll.

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
The Sunnis in the South where the British are would never wear a t-shirt with a Saddam flag on it.

Er... it's the Shiites in the south.

[Seshmeister]

What have the English got to do with this?:)

[FORD]

Originally posted by rustoffa
It's mind numbing. Welcome to the age of imbedded journalists, sensationalism, and an educated human collective so riddled with concerns of appearing "too far left" or "too far right" they can't walk down the middle of a fucking sidewalk. A broomstick up the ass pales in comparison to "ethnic cleansing". (sorry,no first hand footage) A pile of suspects resembling a pyramid pales in comparison to Mao's Or Pol's monolithic piles of flesh. (they're still excavating) Man oh man....some footage of Castro's "good ol' days" would make that miscreant group of AMERICAN soldiers look like the guardian angels. Hanging out in uncertain, horrific, doublecross ridden squalor is bound to take it's toll.

Ah, but the point is that "we" are supposed to be better than Mao, or Pol Pot, or Fidel Castro, or Saddam Hussein. And I suspect some photos of what's really going on at Auschwitz South er uh Guantanamo Bay would make these photos look like a Mormon church picnic by comparison.

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
What have the English got to do with this?:)

Or the Scots?

It's those bloody British, nothing to do with us.:rolleyes:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
Ah, but the point is that "we" are supposed to be better than Mao, or Pol Pot, or Fidel Castro, or Saddam Hussein.



No dickhead..

The problem is people like you look at ths as a "we" problem...

Some young military people did some wrong stuff...

Deal with it and move on...

Next...

:elvis:

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
No dickhead..

The problem is people like you look at ths as a "we" problem...

Some young military people did some wrong stuff...



No, the problem is that as far as most Iraqi citizens are concerned, these barbaric shitheads are representative of the US governement, and you better believe others in the Arab world have come to the same conclusion. It doesn't matter if those responsible are a small minority, it's enough to damage the credibility of ALL of us, military or civillian. As if the invasion and occupation themselves weren't enough for that.

Don't believe me?

Look at how Muslims - or even those percieved to be Muslims (Sikhs or other turban wearers) in this country have been treated by many because of the supposed actions of 19 people.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
No, the problem is that as far as most Iraqi citizens are concerned, these barbaric shitheads are representative of the US governement, and you better believe others in the Arab world have come to the same conclusion. It doesn't matter if those responsible are a small minority, it's enough to damage the credibility of ALL of us, military or civillian.


Nah.. that's not true...

[FORD]

Like I said, how many people in THIS country developed a hatred and/or paranoid fear of all Muslims over the supposed actions of 19 assholes?

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Nah.. that's not true...

Ford is correct. Military people visiting foreign ports are always cautioned to make a good show because they are seen to represent the entire nation. When they fuckup in behavior, they are usually hammered hard. However, him implying the Gitmo lockup is reminiscent of Pol Pot, Castro, or Saddam is simply disgusting.


:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

Closer to Stalins gulags, if a bit warmer.

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by FORD
Like I said, how many people in THIS country developed a hatred and/or paranoid fear of all Muslims over the supposed actions of 19 assholes?

I was listening to some Hindus talking at a place I was working a couple of months ago and they all believed the US was a bigger threat to world peace than Saddam et al.

Unfortunately the actions of the US are having a negative effect on the way it is perceived by a lot of different ethnic groups across the world.

[ELVIS]

Hmmm...

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Mr Grimsdale
I was listening to some Hindus talking at a place I was working a couple of months ago and they all believed the US was a bigger threat to world peace than Saddam et al.

Unfortunately the actions of the US are having a negative effect on the way it is perceived by a lot of different ethnic groups across the world.

And they will still seek our financial and military aid when they get in a jam. :gulp:

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Ford is correct.

**our hero passes out in shock**



However, him implying the Gitmo lockup is reminiscent of Pol Pot, Castro, or Saddam is simply disgusting.

I implied no such thing. But the point is, we don't know WHAT the fuck is going on at Gitmo, and if this barbarism is possible in the Iraq bases, where such revelations were bound to come out eventually, then what exactly are they NOT telling us about what's going on at Gitmo.

I have no doubt at all that you and the other vets and active military dudes here are just as sickened by these abuses as I am. But there's no fucking way I'm buying Rummy & Junior's half assed apologies. Those fascist fucks knew damn well this was going on.

[Seshmeister]

Bush and his pals need to take some responsibility for the US crimes because it was them that riled up a bunch of kids telling them the Iraqis caused 9-11 and then gave them guns and sent them over there.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Angel]

Originally posted by Mr Grimsdale
I was listening to some Hindus talking at a place I was working a couple of months ago and they all believed the US was a bigger threat to world peace than Saddam et al.

Up here in the Great White North, a LOT of US feel that way, be it whites, natives, East Indians, Africans, you get the picture...

[Dr. Love]

Originally posted by Angel
Up here in the Great White North, a LOT of US feel that way, be it whites, natives, East Indians, Africans, you get the picture...

I'm a threat to your world peace, baby. :cool:

[Other-defcon]

Originally posted by Mr Grimsdale
So you accept that the American military might just have some problems too?
The GIs show their face...what about the unseen brit faces?
I can hardly believe that soldiers from civilized nations to act as barbarians...

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Angel
Up here in the Great White North, a LOT of US feel that way, be it whites, natives, East Indians, Africans, you get the picture...

Yeah, but you're a twit. Nobody takes you seriously. :gulp:

[rustoffa]

Maybe eventually, the good ol' U S of A will close the borders, end all economic aid, tell the U.N. to fuck off and become neutral. Imagine the placid harmony sure to follow.

[Angel]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yeah, but you're a twit. Nobody takes you seriously. :gulp:

You, me..... outside.... (You better be wearing a cup) :D

[Seshmeister]

As ever we called it here first!:)

SORRY.. WE WERE HOAXED


May 15 2004 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14242612%26method=full%26siteid=50143% 26headline=sorry---we-were-hoaxed-name_page.html

VOICE OF THE MIRROR: Iraqi PoW abuse pictures handed to
us WERE fake.

IT is now clear that the photographs the Mirror published of British soldiers abusing an Iraqi prisoner were fakes. The evidence against them is not strong enough to convict in a court but that is not the burden of proof the Daily Mirror demands of itself. Our mission is to tell the truth. That is something this newspaper has been doing for more than 100 years and will always strive to do. If ever we fail, we are letting down the people who mean most to us. Our readers. So to you today we apologise for publishing pictures which we now believe were not genuine. We also say sorry to the Queen's Lancashire Regiment and our Army in Iraq for publishing those pictures.


Sorry isn't fucking good enough though.

They sacked their prick of an editor who I've hated for years now, a smarmy little gutter press prick who should now face crminal charges.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
As ever we called it here first!:)

SORRY.. WE WERE HOAXED




Sorry isn't fucking good enough though.

They sacked their prick of an editor who I've hated for years now, a smarmy little gutter press prick who should now face crminal charges.


The British press is even more of a joke than it was before. That doesn't, however, excuse the British Army of letting Lt. Col Collins off on his obviously-guilty charges. :gulp:

[Mr Grimsdale]

here we go again

says who?

the incident was investigated and charges were not pressed

like i said before you're just pissed cos' the evidence of a US officer was found to be incorrect

if collins had been responsible he'd have been punished
just as those British troops responsible for beatings will be

[Other-defcon]

Originally posted by rustoffa
Maybe eventually, the good ol' U S of A will close the borders, end all economic aid, tell the U.N. to fuck off and become neutral. Imagine the placid harmony sure to follow.

Don't forget all CIA agents around the world, the spy satellites, etc...

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Other-defcon
Don't forget all CIA agents around the world, the spy satellites, etc...

No, we'll always keep an eye on you Socialist bastards. You are the enemy. :gulp:

[Other-defcon]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
No, we'll always keep an eye on you Socialist bastards. You are the enemy. :gulp:

I think you need a hug...