Iraq Prison 'Torture' Allegations Overblown

[Viking]

Sunday, May. 2, 2004 1:43 PM EDT
Iraq Prison 'Torture' Allegations Overblown

Did U.S. soldiers in Baghdad "torture" Iraqi prisoners housed at Saddam Hussein's old Abu Ghraib prison?

That's the impression being given by the blanket coverage of photos showing Iraqi detainees being humiliated at hands of their American keepers - half of whom, by the way, were female.

That's right. Along with three male GIs suspected in the prison "torture" episode, three females, Spec. Megan Ambuhl, Spec. Sabrina Harman and Private Lynndie England have been named in the scandal.

England is the GI shown in several of the photos circulated throughout the world, cigarette dangling from her lips as she smirks at a masturbating Iraq prisoner.

Female torturers? That tidbit should send up a red flag immediately.

When Saddam routinely tortured Iraqi innocents held at Abu Ghraib for decades, press accounts make no mention of women feeding detainees into meat grinders, or dipping prisoners in acid, or dismembering victims to be sent home to family members in Hefty bags.

Soldiers or not, women are generally not the best candidates to administer physical "torture" of any kind.

In fact, what the photos show is not "torture" - or Iraqi prisoners being subjected to "atrocities," another term being tossed out to hype this story.

Instead, these GI's were likely doing what they were told to do - soften up their prisoners for interrogation that next day by using humiliation and intimidation.

Much the same way Iraq war hero Corporal Alan West fired his weapon in the presence of an Iraqi captive earlier in the war to get him to come clean about an impending attack against West's unit.

For all the hysterical headlines, this allegedly shocking episode sounds more like a college fraternity hazing:

"The photographs tell it all," writes the New Yorker's Seymour Hersh.

"In one, Private England, a cigarette dangling from her mouth, is giving a jaunty thumbs-up sign and pointing at the genitals of a young Iraqi, who is naked except for a sandbag over his head, as he masturbates.

"Three other hooded and naked Iraqi prisoners are shown, hands reflexively crossed over their genitals. A fifth prisoner has his hands at his sides. In another, England stands arm in arm with Specialist Graner; both are grinning and giving the thumbs-up behind a cluster of perhaps seven naked Iraqis, knees bent, piled clumsily on top of each other in a pyramid.

"There is another photograph of a cluster of naked prisoners, again piled in a pyramid. Near them stands Graner, smiling, his arms crossed; a woman soldier stands in front of him, bending over, and she, too, is smiling.

"Then, there is another cluster of hooded bodies, with a female soldier standing in front, taking photographs. Yet another photograph shows a kneeling, naked, unhooded male prisoner, head momentarily turned away from the camera, posed to make it appear that he is performing oral sex on another male prisoner, who is naked and hooded."

Embarrassing? Yes. But hardly the Bataan Death March.

Hersh also alleges that phosphoric liquid from chemical lights was poured on detainees; along with cold water. Others were subjected to "threats" of rape. Military dogs were used to "frighten and intimidate" prisoners, including one case in which a detainee was actually bitten.

Pretty weak stuff by the standards of Saddam, however, who used to have his Doberman Pincers devour dissidents alive as his Cabinet looked on.

Hersh does note the alleged sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick. But in a report ripe with quotes from a preliminary military investigation into the prisoner abuse scandal, he includes no direct quotes about this, the most egregious of all abuse allegations.

It's also worth noting that Hersh's reporting earlier in the war on terror turned out to be highly questionable.

The bottom line: While reporters pretend to be shocked that the U.S. isn't housing Iraqi POW's at the Baghdad Waldorf Astoria, complete with full room service, an in-room Jacuzzi and daily massage privileges, that kind of treatment isn't likely to yield much by way of actionable intelligence. And that, after all, was the point of all the harsh treatment.

The Bush administration needs to announce that while this entire episode may be regrettable, there was no "torture," "atrocities" weren't committed - and suggestions to the contrary by American reporters give aid and comfort to the enemy.

Meanwhile, if the Muslim world considers it "torture" to have female GIs looking at their undressed prisoners, they ought to consider how upset Americans get when the folks we sent over to rebuild one of their countries are shot, burned, have their corpses dragged through the streets and used for bridge ornaments.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/2/134454.shtml

[Wayne L.]

The news media should apologize to the US soldiers in Iraq as well as the American people for this story about mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners immediately if they wanrt to be fair or lose their credibility permanently.

[GAR]

This is bullshit: this is a popular form of entertainment in Arab culture - they're only supposed to be gettin' meals, clothing and shelter...

I know for a fact that it costs 2.5 Iraqi Dinaris for children to get this kind of amusement at any Muslim carnival celebration ride, and these prisoners are recieving this benefit for free.

Factor in the black party hats and you add at least another half-Dinari to the cost; WHAT THE FUCKS UP WITH THAT?

[alexpgrimes]

No one is talking about how our prisoners are being treated. Why is that?

[GAR]

Because we won the war.. and keep killing the fuckers who won't acknowledge it and like to challenge our strength.

[Jesus Christ]

What part of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" do ye not understand? :mad:

[Phil da Stalker]

Originally posted by Wayne L.
The news media should apologize to the US soldiers in Iraq as well as the American people for this story about mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners immediately if they wanrt to be fair or lose their credibility permanently.
To you all:

College hazing? The most debased thing you can do to a Muslim is sexual humiliation. What do you think you know about Islam?

When you're huffing that dirty bomb tell me the Arabs third world population understands what a college hazing is and other "Western" ideals that are not a part of Islam.

And by the way, after 40 years we still don't have Vietnam POW photos like this and there were a lot of Kodak Instamatic pocket cameras sold and carried there, and we were there much longer.

Remember people, these new kid "vets" are the same people who are coming back to be hired in careers as your local cops.

[Viking]

Some of the alleged perps are from the 372nd MP Unit, in my hometown. I'll bet a few of them were the ones that set the lockers on fire in high school, so we had to stand in 10 degree cold during the fire alarm. We threw snowballs at the firemen hanging off the side of the trucks. We always were a devious bunch of little fuckers. :D :killer:

[John Ashcroft]

Originally posted by Phil da Stalker
To you all:

College hazing? The most debased thing you can do to a Muslim is sexual humiliation. What do you think you know about Islam?


Enough.

You know, come to think about it, one of the most "debased" things you can do to an American is train terrorists how to hijack commercial airplanes at Salman Pak. Yep, hijacking airplanes and crashing them into buildings also debases us pretty good.

The difference is, we can do something about it.

[Phil da Stalker]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Enough.

You know, come to think about it, one of the most "debased" things you can do to an American is train terrorists how to hijack commercial airplanes at Salman Pak. Yep, hijacking airplanes and crashing them into buildings also debases us pretty good.

The difference is, we can do something about it.
Don't be sarcastic with me. I don't waste my breath when I speak. The alledged Arabs who were "used" didn't do it ALONE. History will prove that elements within the U.S. government and other states (Israel) carried out the financing, training (at USAF bases), and nurturing for 9/11, and so on...okay, with a nickname like J.Ashcroft you can play the game of the name as the real persona of that name would who knows what the third "engine" (see link) is on the bottom of "this here" plane that cannot be there in the real world, who built it, who flew it (remote control?), and who benefits!

Second American Civil War (http://www.letsroll911.org)
We won't be typing here much longer. You're right. There is something we can do about it. Get a portable water filter. Don't worry about getting a gun. There'll be plenty you can get from all of the dead bodies that will be all over the U.S. countryside soon.

Don't worry about it. Buy a pool, buy a house, get a loan, go fishing, get those VH tickets, and trust your government to the very end.
www.letsroll911.org (http://www.letsroll911.org)
Click here to see amazing 3rd engine! (http://www.letsroll911.org)
If you see the third engine (what is it?) then you have better vision than the public corporate President of the United States, it's corporate congress, corporate judicial (UCC - find out what it means), and the private corporate media. All those people.

If you see the third engine that can't be there then you didn't see it, because none of the above mentioned see it. They're protecting you. They're defending America, haha, yeh right.

You should be wandering around talking to yourself after you see the third engine like "object" nobody else who's mentioned above sees (not Tom Brokaw, not George Bush, not Bill Clinton, not Hillary Clinton), but you see it and I see it.

There is a mortal threat to America, but it's not from the Middle East.

Good luck in the future, but you sound like a casualty rather than a survivor.

[Jesus Christ]

Phillip, My son, ye are much closer to the Truth than most here, but watch thy back because the disciples of the Son of Bush will now be out to crucify thee :(

[John Ashcroft]

Phillip, My son, ye needith to putith downith the crackith pipe from timeth to timeth.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Phillip, My son, ye needith to putith downith the crackith pipe from timeth to timeth.

Do not blaspheme My words, ye who art the crotch of an ass :mad:

For it is thee who hath been deceived by the Son of Bush and the liars and false prophets who surround him. My Father hath restrained Me from revealing to ye mortals all of what happenned on that horrible day - freewill, Prime Directive, and all that - but I can tell thee this much. Ye are not hearing the truth from thy media, nor from the Son of Bush.

[worldbefree]

Wasn't Bernard Kerik the police chief of NYC when Abner Louima was sodomized with a plunger....

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Do not blaspheme My words, ye who art the crotch of an ass :mad:



Suck a low carb dick you bible twisting fool...

[Seshmeister]

It wasn't torture because there were women involved??

Whatever idiot wrote that article has obviously never been married...

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Suck a low carb dick you bible twisting fool...

Hey FORD, here's some helpful advice on you low-carb DIET. (http://www.illwillpress.com/fatkins.html)

[FORD]

Originally posted by worldbefree
Wasn't Bernard Kerik the police chief of NYC when Abner Louima was sodomized with a plunger....

Yep. He was also put in charge of the WTC cleanup, which was kept under very tight wraps.

Kinda funny how he turned up in Iraq, isn't it?

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Suck a low carb dick you bible twisting fool...

How very Christian of you to say.... to Jesus, no less!

And dicks, by definition, would be protein and naturally low carb. Not that they are on my list of dietary choices, but facts are facts.

You, on the other hand, seem to be obsessed with the idea.

[ELVIS]

Dude.. you're not Jesus...

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Hey FORD, here's some helpful advice on you low-carb DIET. (http://www.illwillpress.com/fatkins.html)

Hilarious, if not exactly accurate.

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Dude.. you're not Jesus...

I notice you didn't deny being obessed with dicks ;)

[ELVIS]

Man...:rolleyes:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Dude.. you're not Jesus...

God is Man
Jesus is God
FORD is a man
FORD is Jesus.

Is that not the kind of shit you Christian cult members come up with?:)

If not forgive me...

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
God is Man
Jesus is God
FORD is a man
FORD is Jesus.

Is that not the kind of shit you Christian cult members come up with?:)

If not forgive me...

Cheers!

:gulp:

Thou art forgiven :)

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Dude.. you're not Jesus...

And ye are not Elvis Presley.

[Angel]

I told you before Ford (JC), he's Elvis STOJKO!

[FORD]

Originally posted by Angel
I told you before Ford (JC), he's Elvis STOJKO!

Oh, so he's a figure skater?

Guess that explains his obsession with dicks..... :blow:

[ELVIS]

Hahahaha...funny...hahahahahahaha...:rolleyes:

[Mr Grimsdale]

While I don't see anything wrong with hooding certain prisoners or putting them in stress positions to soften them up the stories on last nights news about prisoners being given chemical burns is quite disturbing.

That is too reminiscent of things past. I dread to think what's going to happen next time a US or UK soldier is captured.

[ELVIS]

Chemical burns ??

I never heard that...

[Mr Grimsdale]

It was reported last night on UK TV news. I've been searching for evidence of it on news sites but can't find any so hopefully it was a mistake on the part of the TV news coverage.

I really hope it was a mistake because that is NOT nice.

[flappo]

..yes

..hmm


..plop plink splat

Normal Service has been Resumed

[knuckleboner]

if this isn't that big a deal, why is bush apologizing on arab television and publically reprimanding rumsfield?

that the prisoners weren't killed or injured doesn't make the conduct right.

yes, it's not on the same thought as saddam's torture. but is that what we really want to tell the iraqi people now? we saved you from saddam's brutal torture so that you could enjoy our largeless harmless, mostly pyschological torture?

bush understands some things. and he understands how bad this makes us look, and the damage it can do to our already fragile reputation in that part of the world.

[worldbefree]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
if this isn't that big a deal, why is bush apologizing on arab television and publically reprimanding rumsfield?

I love the irony that Bush has to go on Arab television and compare the things that have been done to the Iraqi people during his occupation of Iraq to the things that occurred under Sadaams regime.

Gotta love it.

[Angel]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
if this isn't that big a deal, why is bush apologizing on arab television and publically reprimanding rumsfield?

that the prisoners weren't killed or injured doesn't make the conduct right.

yes, it's not on the same thought as saddam's torture. but is that what we really want to tell the iraqi people now? we saved you from saddam's brutal torture so that you could enjoy our largeless harmless, mostly pyschological torture?



Actually, he didn't say sorry. Prisoners WERE killed and injured, being investigated as we speak. By the way, psychological torture is NOT harmless

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Angel
Actually, he didn't say sorry. Prisoners WERE killed and injured, being investigated as we speak. By the way, psychological torture is NOT harmless

actually, he did:


Originally stated by GWB
I told him I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners and the humiliation suffered by their families

that was bush taking to jordan's king abdullah from fox news (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119156,00.html)



and i said LARGELY harmless, in regards to the pyschological torture, to compare it with the maiming.

but you missed the point if you're focusing on that. my point was that EVEN IF the U.S. "torture" was benign, as the initial article in this thread seemed to indicate, that it was STILL wrong.

[John Ashcroft]

I say hang them all from a crane (the prisoners, not the G.I.s involved here)

[Angel]

Well, according to non-US news stations, he didn't actually say the words "sorry" in the interviews yesterday. Big mistake when dealing with Arabs. He did say that he said he was sorry when talking to the King of Jordan today. He SHOULD HAVE said the words yesterday. So, he's trying to do damage control now... too little, too late.

Hang the prisoners by a crane? Is that how you want American prisoners treated? (Do unto others as you would have done unto you)

How about a public stoning for the female soldier who is seen in more than one picture - the latest where she has a leash on a naked Iraqi male? I guess the cultural sensitivity training got missed, eh?

It is as disgusting as what our soldiers did in South Africa. Big difference, we broke the news right away, and the division in question was de-commissioned, right then and there.

It's great that the USA liberated the Iraqis from Saddam, but tell me, who the hell is going to liberate them from GWB?

[ELVIS]

Angel...

The authority on dealing with arabs...

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
I say hang them all from a crane (the prisoners, not the G.I.s involved here)

The voice of freedom and the American way. :rolleyes:

That's hardly going to endear the US to the rest of the world. OK, you can take the line that certain areas of the world are never going to warm to you but there's no point giving them extra ammunition.

[Seshmeister]

A few of the posters here like JA are morally bankrupt.

[High Life Man]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
damage it can do to our already fragile reputation in that part of the world.

Those fuckheads over there are so ass-backward we could grow grass, bring in food, make rainbows, ride unicorns and offer all of them 72 "virgins" and they'd still rather live like it was 988 AD. Their fearless leaders would still convince them to hate us.

Fuck the Middle East. Assholes...

I gotta agree with my buddy who was over in Israel as a military attache. They're tough people and don't take shit from anyone. They've long since realized there is no negotiating with the Arabs and Palestinians, you have to fight fire with fire.

[John Ashcroft]

Originally posted by Mr Grimsdale
The voice of freedom and the American way. :rolleyes:

That's hardly going to endear the US to the rest of the world. OK, you can take the line that certain areas of the world are never going to warm to you but there's no point giving them extra ammunition.

Fuck the rest of the world, they're not "endeared" to us anyway (except for taking our money that is)... Fuckin' bitches.

I'm just making the point that there's hardly any "outrage" from you Euroweenies when American contractors are burnt alive and hung by a crane.


Originally posted by Seshmeister
A few of the posters here like JA are morally bankrupt.

See above statement for your supposed "moral authority", bitch. Then go have another round while your wife raises your baby.

[John Ashcroft]

OK, that was a little harsh...

Sorry 'bout that Sesh. Please disregard the second sentence. The first still stands though.

[ELVIS]

Are you the real Ashcroft ???

Fuck an apology!

You said what you said.. He's a big boy...

:elvis:

[John Ashcroft]

Nah, I don't need to get personal to win arguments. I enjoy a good spat with Sesh from time to time, but rather it stick to politics.

But hell, he said I was immoral right? That's a personal attack no? Maybe I should reconsider my reconsideration...


Just kidding. Sesh, my apology stands.


Even if you are a bitch.

[ELVIS]

:D

[Phil da Stalker]

Originally posted by High Life Man
Those fuckheads over there are so ass-backward we could grow grass, bring in food, make rainbows, ride unicorns and offer all of them 72 "virgins" and they'd still rather live like it was 988 AD. Their fearless leaders would still convince them to hate us.

Fuck the Middle East. Assholes...

I gotta agree with my buddy who was over in Israel as a military attache. They're tough people and don't take shit from anyone. They've long since realized there is no negotiating with the Arabs and Palestinians, you have to fight fire with fire.
I meant to say you should get a portable water "purifier." A filter only removes some particales and doesnt' make the water safe for drinking. I recomend the Berkey Light (http://shop.store.yahoo.com/infowars-shop/berkeylight1.html). It's what the enemy (UN) uses. One day you will have to drink your our urine like this guy.

[Ally_Kat]

I think what happened to the Iraqi prisoners was wrong. That's not how we should do business, but


Originally posted by Angel


Hang the prisoners by a crane? Is that how you want American prisoners treated? (Do unto others as you would have done unto you)


http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040331/capt.sge.dfx48.310304165732.photo00.default-384x259.jpg
An Iraqi hits a burning car in Fallujah with a shovel. At least three of the four contractors killed in a brutal ambush west of Baghdad have been identified as civilian US citizens, a State Department official said.(AFP/Karim Sahib)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040331/capt.sge.dfg68.310304160127.photo03.default-384x285.jpg
An Iraqi man stands close to a charred human limb thrown tied to a brick onto an electricity cable in the flashpoint town of Fallujah. Angry residents armed with shovels mutilated the charred bodies of two people, believed to be foreigners, caught in an insurgents' attack and warned the rebel Iraqi town would be the 'cemetery' of US occupation forces.(AFP/Karim Sahib)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040331/capt.sge.dfg68.310304160127.photo01.default-267x384.jpg
An Iraqi boy flashes the victory sign near a charred body hanging from a bridge over the Euphrates River in the flashpoint town of Fallujah. Angry residents armed with shovels mutilated the charred bodies of two people, believed to be foreigners, caught in an insurgents'attack and warned the rebel Iraqi town would be the 'cemetery' of US occupation forces.(AFP/Sabah Arar)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040331/capt.sge.dev18.310304152642.photo00.default-384x256.jpg
Iraqis mutilate a burnt body of a dead man who was inside a car attacked in Fallujah. Four civilian contractors were believed killed when two cars were ambushed and set ablaze in the flashpoint town of Fallujah, a US-led coalition official said.(AFP/Karim Sahib)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040331/capt.sge.dev91.310304152830.photo02.default-254x384.jpg
Iraqis mutilate the burnt body of a dead man believed to be a US citizen who was inside a car attacked in the flashpoint town of Fallujah. At least two people believed to be Americans were killed when gunmen opened fire on two vehicles in Fallujah.(AFP/Karim Sahib)

and let us not forget this (http://download.consumptionjunction.com/multimedia/cj_9833.RAM)


unfortunately, I don't think it matters how we want American prisoners to be treated

*sigh*

[bonefish]

Originally posted by Phil da Stalker
I meant to say you should get a portable water "purifier." A filter only removes some particales and doesnt' make the water safe for drinking. I recomend the Berkey Light (http://shop.store.yahoo.com/infowars-shop/berkeylight1.html). It's what the enemy (UN) uses. One day you will have to drink your own urine like this guy.
I have a feeling that guy already drinks his own urine.

[bonefish]

Originally posted by flappo
..yes

..hmm


..plop plink splat

Normal Service has been Resumed
You're really having a goodtime. You've ruined this good thread.

[ELVIS]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040331/capt.sge.dev91.310304152830.photo02.default-254x384.jpg

You have a problem with this FORD ???

[bonefish]

Originally posted by ELVIS
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040331/capt.sge.dev91.310304152830.photo02.default-254x384.jpg

You have a problem with this FORD ???
They don't want McDonalds. I don't blame them.

[ELVIS]

What do Iraqis eat anyhow ??

[Jesus Christ]

Hummus, lamb, pita bread falafel. Typical Middle Eastern diet. They ate fish before the Tigris and Euphrates were polluted.

Verily, it is hard for even Me to picture the Garden of Eden being there anymore :(

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Nah, I don't need to get personal to win arguments. I enjoy a good spat with Sesh from time to time, but rather it stick to politics.

But hell, he said I was immoral right? That's a personal attack no? Maybe I should reconsider my reconsideration...


Just kidding. Sesh, my apology stands.


Even if you are a bitch.

I don't give a shit at all because it's aimed at the Seshmeister character rather than me in real life which are not the same particularly these days.

I noticed Cathedral did it a few weeks back and I guess that just meant I had made a hit in in a debate.

The morally bankrupt line is really aimed at the whole burn them, fuck them kill them 'christians' who are boring and depressing me.

I'm hoping that they are just doing it out of frustration to let off steam on the internet...

Cheers!

:gulp:

[cwsmith17]

"All is fair in love and war."

[John Ashcroft]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Hummus, lamb, pita bread falafel. Typical Middle Eastern diet. They ate fish before the Tigris and Euphrates were polluted.

Verily, it is hard for even Me to picture the Garden of Eden being there anymore :(

Yeah, Saddam really fucked that place up. It's gonna be awhile 'till we get the place back in order.

[bonefish]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Yeah, Saddam really fucked that place up. It's gonna be awhile 'till we get the place back in order.
You will burn in the dump, Seshy.