Evolution at Work: Watching Bacteria Grow Drug Resistant

[ODShowtime]

WallStreet Journal


Evolution at Work: Watching Bacteria Grow Drug Resistant


Friday June 8, 12:03 pm ET
By Robert Lee Hotz

Day by day, the doctors unwittingly helped the bacteria infecting their young heart patient to evolve. The more intensively they treated his affliction with antibiotics, the more the microbes resisted the therapy.

In a strict medical sense, the young man, identified only as Patient X, died of complications from a congenital heart ailment and a Staphylococcus aureus infection.

More broadly, evolution killed him.

The life-and-death struggle inside his infected heart was driven by the same evolutionary forces of natural selection and adaptation that are causing a pandemic of drug-resistant diseases world-wide. The emergence of such immunity among infectious diseases is one of the most well-documented problems in modern public health. Until now, however, researchers knew little about how bacteria multiplying inside the human body overcome the drugs designed to control them.

Last month, an international team of 11 scientists, led by biologists at Rockefeller University in New York, for the first time identified the genetic changes that occurred as Staph bacteria developed resistance to successive antibiotics, step by step, in the living test tube of a sick man. To document events inside these virulent cells, Rockefeller University biologist and his colleagues analyzed the infection's genetic code as it changed in a series of blood samples taken during the patient's stay. Their work, reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, details how the molecular mechanics of survival are strengthening many deadly diseases.

Patient X died in October 2000 after a 12-week hospital stay. His case comes to light now because researchers only recently developed the computational techniques needed to sequence generations of bacteria. The hospital, which also wasn't identified, gave the patient's Staph samples to the Rockefeller team for research purposes. The techniques still are too slow and expensive for clinical use.

When Patient X was admitted to the hospital, he was already suffering from a Staphylococcus aureus infection, but it was still vulnerable to antibiotics. During treatment, however, the bacteria quickly developed stronger resistance to four antibiotics, including vancomycin, the drug of last resort for intractable infections, the scientists reported. As living bacteria, the Staph were driven to survive.

Every time the patient took his medicine, the antibiotics killed the weakest bacteria in his bloodstream. Any cell that had developed a protective mutation to defend itself against the drug survived, passing on its special trait to descendants. With every round of treatment, the cells refined their defenses through the trial and error of survival. "It means that during a normal course of treatment there is an evolutionary revolution going on in your body," said Stanford University biologist , author of "The Evolution Explosion: How Humans Cause Rapid Evolutionary Change."

These resistant microbes, all disease-producing organisms spawned by the original infection, quickly accumulated 35 useful mutations. Each one altered a molecular sensor or production of a protein.

Researchers then matched these gradual genetic changes to increasing levels of drug resistance, shocked that it took so little to undermine the foundation of modern infectious-disease control. "We have now really looked into the belly of the beast and seen the mechanism," said Rockefeller microbiologist .

Nearly two million people catch bacterial infections in U.S. hospitals every year and 90,000 of them die -- seven times as high as a decade ago as germs become immune to almost every antibiotic developed during the past 60 years. The most common is the Staphylococcus bacteria. World-wide, some two billion people carry these bacteria; up to 53 million people are thought to harbor antibiotic-resistant forms.

On average, people who contract Staph infections stay in the hospital three times as long and face five times the risk of dying. But these infections are becoming more prevalent outside hospitals. Antibiotic-resistant Staph infections increased almost sevenfold from 2001 to 2005, researchers reported last week in the Archives of Internal Medicine. Contagions such as tuberculosis, pneumonia and bubonic plague also are becoming immune to the drugs that once kept them at bay.

The death of Patient X highlights the speed of natural selection in fostering antibiotic resistance. "When you talk about the evolution of an arm or an eye or a species, you might be talking about millions of years. You can get bacteria resistant in a week," Dr. Mwangi said.

The Rockefeller researchers believe that a better understanding of evolution will lead to better antibiotic treatments. They want to disable the genes that allow these disease bacteria to mutate and adapt. The Staph bacteria that evolved inside Patient X now have such strong defenses that, in recent tests, they easily withstood even the next generation of clinical antibiotics. For the time being, the microbes are keeping one step ahead.

[ODShowtime]

I'm about a week late, and I can't find the two really good articles about this I had saved...

but anyway, I'm really looking foward to some creationist input here to explain how this doesn't validate the theory of evolution.

[Seshmeister]

This is maybe the one zillionth bit of evidence against the creationist shit.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
This is maybe the one zillionth bit of evidence against the creationist shit.

Yeah, but this one is easy to understand and topical. Everyone is aware of the drug-resistant TB dude.

It's just such a crushing blow to people who scoff at evolution.

[jhale667]

Originally posted by ODShowtime

It's just such a crushing blow to people who scoff at evolution.

SPURS, I'm looking in your direction....:D

[Redballjets88]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
WallStreet Journal


Evolution at Work: Watching Bacteria Grow Drug Resistant


Friday June 8, 12:03 pm ET
By Robert Lee Hotz

Day by day, the doctors unwittingly helped the bacteria infecting their young heart patient to evolve. The more intensively they treated his affliction with antibiotics, the more the microbes resisted the therapy.

In a strict medical sense, the young man, identified only as Patient X, died of complications from a congenital heart ailment and a Staphylococcus aureus infection.

More broadly, evolution killed him.

The life-and-death struggle inside his infected heart was driven by the same evolutionary forces of natural selection and adaptation that are causing a pandemic of drug-resistant diseases world-wide. The emergence of such immunity among infectious diseases is one of the most well-documented problems in modern public health. Until now, however, researchers knew little about how bacteria multiplying inside the human body overcome the drugs designed to control them.

Last month, an international team of 11 scientists, led by biologists at Rockefeller University in New York, for the first time identified the genetic changes that occurred as Staph bacteria developed resistance to successive antibiotics, step by step, in the living test tube of a sick man. To document events inside these virulent cells, Rockefeller University biologist and his colleagues analyzed the infection's genetic code as it changed in a series of blood samples taken during the patient's stay. Their work, reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, details how the molecular mechanics of survival are strengthening many deadly diseases.

Patient X died in October 2000 after a 12-week hospital stay. His case comes to light now because researchers only recently developed the computational techniques needed to sequence generations of bacteria. The hospital, which also wasn't identified, gave the patient's Staph samples to the Rockefeller team for research purposes. The techniques still are too slow and expensive for clinical use.

When Patient X was admitted to the hospital, he was already suffering from a Staphylococcus aureus infection, but it was still vulnerable to antibiotics. During treatment, however, the bacteria quickly developed stronger resistance to four antibiotics, including vancomycin, the drug of last resort for intractable infections, the scientists reported. As living bacteria, the Staph were driven to survive.

Every time the patient took his medicine, the antibiotics killed the weakest bacteria in his bloodstream. Any cell that had developed a protective mutation to defend itself against the drug survived, passing on its special trait to descendants. With every round of treatment, the cells refined their defenses through the trial and error of survival. "It means that during a normal course of treatment there is an evolutionary revolution going on in your body," said Stanford University biologist , author of "The Evolution Explosion: How Humans Cause Rapid Evolutionary Change."

These resistant microbes, all disease-producing organisms spawned by the original infection, quickly accumulated 35 useful mutations. Each one altered a molecular sensor or production of a protein.

Researchers then matched these gradual genetic changes to increasing levels of drug resistance, shocked that it took so little to undermine the foundation of modern infectious-disease control. "We have now really looked into the belly of the beast and seen the mechanism," said Rockefeller microbiologist .

Nearly two million people catch bacterial infections in U.S. hospitals every year and 90,000 of them die -- seven times as high as a decade ago as germs become immune to almost every antibiotic developed during the past 60 years. The most common is the Staphylococcus bacteria. World-wide, some two billion people carry these bacteria; up to 53 million people are thought to harbor antibiotic-resistant forms.

On average, people who contract Staph infections stay in the hospital three times as long and face five times the risk of dying. But these infections are becoming more prevalent outside hospitals. Antibiotic-resistant Staph infections increased almost sevenfold from 2001 to 2005, researchers reported last week in the Archives of Internal Medicine. Contagions such as tuberculosis, pneumonia and bubonic plague also are becoming immune to the drugs that once kept them at bay.

The death of Patient X highlights the speed of natural selection in fostering antibiotic resistance. "When you talk about the evolution of an arm or an eye or a species, you might be talking about millions of years. You can get bacteria resistant in a week," Dr. Mwangi said.

The Rockefeller researchers believe that a better understanding of evolution will lead to better antibiotic treatments. They want to disable the genes that allow these disease bacteria to mutate and adapt. The Staph bacteria that evolved inside Patient X now have such strong defenses that, in recent tests, they easily withstood even the next generation of clinical antibiotics. For the time being, the microbes are keeping one step ahead.




ok cool info, but wtf is with the smile at the front, personally i dont like bacteria being able to resist medicine, i like not being sick

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Redballjets88
ok cool info, but wtf is with the smile at the front, personally i dont like bacteria being able to resist medicine, i like not being sick

Of course it's terrible that our most powerful tools against bacteria are being worn away by over prescription and misuse. It's terrifying to think that we might have a black death plague again.

I'm just happy about the point this proves. That's a cocky "checkmate" smile.

[matt19]

Originally posted by jhale667
SPURS, I'm looking in your direction....:D

You beat me too it... but I was going to say "Creationism is not fact!"

[Seshmeister]

You are a very polite young man...:)

[ODShowtime]

Spurious, I'm waiting...

[matt19]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
You are a very polite young man...:)

Who is ?

[Wallyg]

Interesting story...
When discussing genetic mutation and why we dont have any transitionary fossils, Darwin wrote:
"Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain, and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory."

[ELVIS]

I've already laid out what's wrong with genetic mutation as related to, or as a basis of cellular evolution...

I don't care to do it again...

As long as it satisfies your insistance that there is no God, and you're happy...

Who am I to rain on your parade...


:elvis:

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I've already laid out what's wrong with genetic mutation as related to, or as a basis of cellular evolution...


And you are qualified to render an opinion on this topic because... ?

[Wallyg]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
And you are qualified to render an opinion on this topic because... ?

OT: Hey GT, I just was given this as a gag gift by my kids for Father's Day. It plays well for a cheapo guitar. I used it for slide in open E at a gig Tuesday - you might like it.
http://store.nationalmusicsupply.com/Items/sty-30-ss?

[ELVIS]

Because I have been a health care professional for nearly twenty years and I am required to understand antibiotic therapy in theory and in practice...

I'm also a student furthering my education in health care, counselor...


:elvis:

[matt19]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
And you are qualified to render an opinion on this topic because... ?

Because christians are always right. I think it says it somewhere in that book they read... whats it called again?

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by matt19
Because christians are always right. I think it says it somewhere in that book they read... whats it called again?

Your mama's toilet paper ??

[matt19]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Your mama's toilet paper ??

I had no idea my mom wiped her ass with the bible. Most conventional use for that book yet.

[ELVIS]

I figured as much...

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Because I have been a health care professional for nearly twenty years and I am required to understand antibiotic therapy in theory and in practice...

I'm also a student furthering my education in health care, counselor...


:elvis:

I thought you were a nurse.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Wallyg
OT: Hey GT, I just was given this as a gag gift by my kids for Father's Day. It plays well for a cheapo guitar. I used it for slide in open E at a gig Tuesday - you might like it.
http://store.nationalmusicsupply.com/Items/sty-30-ss?

Thanks for the thought, but that looks like something a kid would like... :D

Man, there is a product for every taste these days!

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
I thought you were a nurse.

Very funny...

But this is no different than having a few scientists rally around Global Warming...

[matt19]

You dont believe global warming is real?

[Wallyg]

Help me out.
I've always had a problem with evolution and religion because it takes faith to beleive in either one.

[jhale667]

Originally posted by Wallyg
Help me out.
I've always had a problem with evolution and religion because it takes faith to beleive in either one.

You can find scientific evidence to support the theory of evolution. You can't say the same about religion. ;)

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Wallyg
Help me out.
I've always had a problem with evolution and religion because it takes faith to beleive in either one.

I'm siding with evolution.

Would a divine creator make THIS?

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/pv/Sammy%20Hagar-26.jpg

[jhale667]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
I'm siding with evolution.

Would a divine creator make THIS?

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/pv/Sammy%20Hagar-26.jpg

Certainly contradicts the idea of a "Benevolent Diety" ....:lol:

[Wallyg]

Originally posted by jhale667
You can find scientific evidence to support the theory of evolution. You can't say the same about religion. ;)

Within a species but not anymore than that.


VERY FUNNY GT!! I guess I'm convinced since that beats any scientific evidence I've seen.

[matt19]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
I'm siding with evolution.

Would a divine creator make THIS?

http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/pv/Sammy%20Hagar-26.jpg

LMMFAO! Are those the bassplayer's shorts on his head?

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by ELVIS
As long as it satisfies your insistance that there is no God, and you're happy...

I'm not arguing that god doesn't exist. I'm arguing that people need to use reason and logic instead of superstition. Superstition is what gets people in trouble.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Wallyg
Interesting story...
When discussing genetic mutation and why we dont have any transitionary fossils, Darwin wrote:
"Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain, and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory."

Fucking hell.

Stop being a sheep.

Darwin was a scientist. You don't read his stuff sentence by sentence like some holy fucking text like Phelps does with the bible.

You are missing the point entirely.

Darwin noticed some shit, He was correct. It has then been refiined and corrected and proved by hundreds of other scientists. That's the way it works. What you don't do is study a text from a hundred years ago(never mind 2000 years ago) and argue over every fucking comma.

This is why science is correct and superstition wrong.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Wallyg
Help me out.
I've always had a problem with evolution and religion because it takes faith to beleive in either one.

ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT!

Faith is belief that is not based on proof.

Evolution is based on proof as is all science.

Religion is the opposite.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Because I have been a health care professional for nearly twenty years and I am required to understand antibiotic therapy in theory and in practice...

I'm also a student furthering my education in health care, counselor...


:elvis:

I'm sorry but if you believe in creationism then being a nurse doesn't mean shit as far as your understanding of genetics or anything else scientific.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by matt19
You dont believe global warming is real?

I believe that recorded average temperatures have risen approximately one degree in the last 100 years. That's documented and can be proven...

But there is debate whether the current warming trend is a normal climatic variation or whether additional warming would be harmful or beneficial...

They have no idea, but algore wants to have a war on global warming!!

So you're 20 years old, right ?? You know what the headlines were 20 years ago ??

In April 1975 Newsweek posted a short article citing: "ominous signs that the earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically," the magazine warned of an impending "drastic decline in food production." Political disruptions stemming from food shortages could affect "just about every nation on earth." Scientists urged governments to consider emergency action to head off the terrible threat of . . . well, if you had been following the climate-change debates at the time, you'd have known that the threat was: GLOBAL COOLING!!!


So, which is it, warming or cooling ??

And what's even more preposterous is blaming either one on man and or driving SUV's...

algore PLAYED ON OUR FEARS!!!


Global warming...:rolleyes:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
I'm sorry but if you believe in creationism then being a nurse doesn't mean shit as far as your understanding of genetics or anything else scientific.

I never said either way what I believe, you implied it, my mind is open...

For instance, I'm not one of these Christians who thinks the earth is 6000 years old, that's rediculous...

I don't believe in a talking snake...

I don't believe Adam was literally made from dirt...

I do believe that the Bible somehow lines up with our creation, even though I dont know the specific answers to such questions...

[Seshmeister]

Cool.

In another 5 years my friend I'll have converted to athiesm...:)

[ELVIS]

Hmmm...;)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I believe that recorded average temperatures have risen approximately one degree in the last 100 years. That's documented and can be proven...

But there is debate whether the current warming trend is a normal climatic variation or whether additional warming would be harmful or beneficial...

They have no idea, but algore wants to have a war on global warming!!

So you're 20 years old, right ?? You know what the headlines were 20 years ago ??

In April 1975 Newsweek posted a short article citing: "ominous signs that the earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically," the magazine warned of an impending "drastic decline in food production." Political disruptions stemming from food shortages could affect "just about every nation on earth." Scientists urged governments to consider emergency action to head off the terrible threat of . . . well, if you had been following the climate-change debates at the time, you'd have known that the threat was: GLOBAL COOLING!!!


So, which is it, warming or cooling ??

And what's even more preposterous is blaming either one on man and or driving SUV's...

algore PLAYED ON OUR FEARS!!!


Global warming...:rolleyes:

"Fear?"

LOL The "War on Terra" bitch is on a roll of self deluded, completely unselfconscious irony...

Played on our fears? Okay Elvira, isn't it time to hide under your bed from all those "Islamofascists?"

[ELVIS]

Hide???

it's time to KILL 'EM ALL !!


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:lSKN6o3uyzRdEM:http://www.galeon.com/allmusic/caratulas/m/metallica_-_kill_em_all-front.jpg


:elvis:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Hide???

it's time to KILL 'EM ALL !!


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:lSKN6o3uyzRdEM:http://www.galeon.com/allmusic/caratulas/m/metallica_-_kill_em_all-front.jpg


:elvis:

You're too busy sponge-bathing people...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Sonic_Nurse.jpg

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by ELVIS
In April 1975 Newsweek posted a short article citing: "ominous signs that the earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically," the magazine warned of an impending "drastic decline in food production." Political disruptions stemming from food shortages could affect "just about every nation on earth." Scientists urged governments to consider emergency action to head off the terrible threat of . . . well, if you had been following the climate-change debates at the time, you'd have known that the threat was: GLOBAL COOLING!!!


So, which is it, warming or cooling ??

And what's even more preposterous is blaming either one on man and or driving SUV's...

algore PLAYED ON OUR FEARS!!!

They didn't have enough scientific evidence to say for sure what effects were coming, but it's obvious that man's work on the planet is changing the environment. They knew that then, they just didn't understand exactly what would happen. Just like they don't now.

This whole rejection of what the scientists are saying is the same mindset that clouds your understanding of evolution.

Your church leaders are afraid of science because they believe it will dimish their authority. That's why the brain wash you into believing that scientists are lying. They aren't They're constantly observing and learning new things are reporting on them. sharing them with others.

Not just reading from books that were written thousands of years ago and translated repeatedly.

It's just silly. You're here telling us we're wrong because of some fairy tale you read. :rolleyes: If it makes you feel better, fine. But it's not reality.

[ELVIS]

No, I was putting strings on a guitar...

Fix that for me...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I never said either way what I believe, you implied it, my mind is open...

For instance, I'm not one of these Christians who thinks the earth is 6000 years old, that's rediculous...

I don't believe in a talking snake...

I don't believe Adam was literally made from dirt...

I do believe that the Bible somehow lines up with our creation, even though I dont know the specific answers to such questions...

Now you're confusing me. :confused:

why are you so against evolution?

It is perfectly reasonable to believe that evolution is the mechanism of god's creation.

[ELVIS]

Thanks for fixin' my pic, dickhead...

[ELVIS]

http://www.ilbaluardo.com/Cover/Audio/M%20-%20N%20-%20O/METALLICA%20-%20Kill%20'em%20all%20-%20Front.jpg

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
why are you so against evolution?

I'm not completely against it, I don't know enough about it to be against it...

It is perfectly reasonable to believe that evolution is the mechanism of god's creation.

However we got here, God created the method...




:elvis:

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by ELVIS
'm not completely against it, I don't know enough about it to be against it...

Well then I guess I got you confused with spurious. sorry.

[Wallyg]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT!

Faith is belief that is not based on proof.

Evolution is based on proof as is all science.

Religion is the opposite.

Sure it takes faith.
No one has shown any concrete proof. Please share some if you have it.
Evolution says :
Time + Chance = Order
That's like saying you can take a box of scrabble letters and throw them up in the air over and over again and eventually you'll get a complete sentence. Logic and statistics easily defeat that equation.
You have to believe in evolution. It is called the "theory of evolution" not the fact.
I see it within species but there is no record of any transitional species anywhere in the rocks and that is where the theory falls apart.
That is where the faith comes in.
Just like any other religion.
You have to believe a reptile became a bird or a whale became a cow. Those are examples I've been taught in classes by "scientists"....without proof of course.
It's all religion after awhile.
When the transitional species fossil records show up then we have proof. Until then we have theories mixed with facts based upon history and/or historical writings which require faith which equals a belief system which is basically a religion of some kind.
Now who's the sheep and from what did they evolve?

[jhale667]

...You obviously didn't catch THIS (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/06/13/dinosaur.remains.reut/index.html?section=cnn_latest)
on the news yesterday...a new bird-like dinosaur species fossil found in China that had a beak and (most likely) feathers..sounds kind of "transistional" to me.... ;)

[FORD]

The most dramatic example of global warming's affect on this planet took place in Elvis' own back yard on August 29,2005.

And he's still in denial.......

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Wallyg
Sure it takes faith.
No one has shown any concrete proof. Please share some if you have it.
Evolution says :
Time + Chance = Order
That's like saying you can take a box of scrabble letters and throw them up in the air over and over again and eventually you'll get a complete sentence. Logic and statistics easily defeat that equation.
You have to believe in evolution. It is called the "theory of evolution" not the fact.
I see it within species but there is no record of any transitional species anywhere in the rocks and that is where the theory falls apart.
That is where the faith comes in.
Just like any other religion.
You have to believe a reptile became a bird or a whale became a cow. Those are examples I've been taught in classes by "scientists"....without proof of course.
It's all religion after awhile.
When the transitional species fossil records show up then we have proof. Until then we have theories mixed with facts based upon history and/or historical writings which require faith which equals a belief system which is basically a religion of some kind.
Now who's the sheep and from what did they evolve?

You are entirely wrong. Natural selection is not chance. Please watch this to explain your scrabble argument.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7ghuVDSHY48"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7ghuVDSHY48" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

You don't understand how the word theory is used in science.

Fossils were completely dealt with in this post

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46622&perpage=30&pagenumber=5


I'm sorry you have been poorly taught and it doesn't help it was done in an environment of superstition.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
The most dramatic example of global warming's affect on this planet took place in Elvis' own back yard on August 29,2005.

And he's still in denial.......

Hahaha...

That's so not true...


:elvis:

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Hahaha...

That's so not true...


:elvis:

What's not true?

That you're in denial, or that the effects of Katrina were intensified by global warming?

[ELVIS]

Both!

Did global warming intenisfy Camille in 1969 ??

[matt19]

You can think what you want. But what are you going to do if it just keeps getting worse, what would you blame then? You think people would just want to breathe cleaner air at least but no one wants to make a change.

[ELVIS]

What can you do about it ??

[matt19]

Who me?

[GO-SPURS-GO]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
And you are qualified to render an opinion on this topic because... ?

Probably not, But Micheal Behe is Qualified.:D

Hi, Mr. Hammonds, nice to meet you. Although it has severe public health consequences, the evolution of antibiotic resistance in bacteria is trivial. It involves tiny changes in molecular machinery that the bacteria already have on hand. It does not make any NEW, complex, functional machinery of life. The example you gave me fits the same mold. You have to learn to ignore the taunts of the evolutionists. Most of them simply don't know what they are talking about, and only parrot what they read. Best wishes.

Mike Behe

[jhale667]

Originally posted by GO-SPURS-GO
You have to learn to ignore the taunts of the creationists. Most of them simply don't know what they are talking about, and only parrot what they read.

See how easy that was? :D

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
What's not true?

That you're in denial, or that the effects of Katrina were intensified by global warming?

The way things are going he'll soon end up in De Nile.:)

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by GO-SPURS-GO
Probably not, But Micheal Behe is Qualified.:D


No he's not and 99.99% of scientists think he's a fucking idiot.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/science/creationism/behe.html

[TongueNGroove]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
I'm about a week late, and I can't find the two really good articles about this I had saved...

but anyway, I'm really looking foward to some creationist input here to explain how this doesn't validate the theory of evolution.

It is pretty simple in fact. God created the process of evolution which eventualy lead to our existance.

There can be a creator AND evolution...they are not mutualy exclusive.

[Seshmeister]

That's the view of pretty much every christian in the world that doesn't live in the US.

I would argue against it but at least it's not a stupid position to take.

[ODShowtime]

Exactly. That's reasonable.

Spending millions to create a museum that shows dinosaurs on the Noah's Arc and expecting people to believe it is not.

Why not just say scientists made up dinosaurs while you're at it?

It's embarrassing to me as a US citizen.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ODShowtime

It's embarrassing to me as a US citizen.


It is embaressing. But it's worse than that.

The US is maybe the most scientifically advanced country in the world and you have this fucking stupid shit going on. Does it matter? I'm not totally sure if it does but the posts of GO-SPURS-GO show how these fuckwits are patently lying to people and affecting them. I guess the equivalent of Go Spurs in Europe wouldn't have an opinion one way or the other and probably never gives it a thought but at least they aren't being lied to.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
It is embaressing. But it's worse than that.

The US is maybe the most scientifically advanced country in the world and you have this fucking stupid shit going on. Does it matter? I'm not totally sure if it does but the posts of GO-SPURS-GO show how these fuckwits are patently lying to people and affecting them. I guess the equivalent of Go Spurs in Europe wouldn't have an opinion one way or the other and probably never gives it a thought but at least they aren't being lied to.

It's terribly dangerous. For a society to use science to such a height that we can split atoms and then revert to superstition... It's a recipe for disaster.

I was always so proud of the US Army. They had such great equipment and such great planning...

and then a couple morons go and expose exactly how weak it is.

It's a disgrace.

[jhale667]

Originally posted by TongueNGroove
It is pretty simple in fact. God created the process of evolution which eventualy lead to our existance.

There can be a creator AND evolution...they are not mutualy exclusive.

Sounds almost reasonable. But most hardcore creationist/zealots would say you're going to hell for even postulating that....:D

Yeah, and the "museum" with the dinosaurs on Noah's ark....definitely an embarassment to US citizens. :(

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by jhale667
Yeah, and the "museum" with the dinosaurs on Noah's ark....definitely an embarassment to US citizens. :(

It's actually an embarrassment to humans in general.

[Seshmeister]

A billion people think that Mohammed was a cool guy who fucked children and got on a flying horse which took him up to heaven.

[jhale667]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
A billion people think that Mohammed was a cool guy who fucked children and got on a flying horse which took him up to heaven.

Geez, when you put it that way..

http://a.photos.cx/scaredycat-19a.jpg

YIKES.

[Wallyg]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
You are entirely wrong. Natural selection is not chance. Please watch this to explain your scrabble argument.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7ghuVDSHY48"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7ghuVDSHY48" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

You don't understand how the word theory is used in science.

Fossils were completely dealt with in this post

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46622&perpage=30&pagenumber=5


I'm sorry you have been poorly taught and it doesn't help it was done in an environment of superstition.

Cheers!

:gulp:

Thanks for the video, the link, and the pity.
I reviewed them and found them very interesting.
They were "theories mixed with facts based upon history and/or historical writings which require faith which equals a belief system which is basically a religion of some kind.'
I need to add another main component to all religions I left out earlier:
Apologetics and apologists
Almost always done with a smug, underlying arrogance........
If you know what I mean.........

[GO-SPURS-GO]

HAPPY FATHER'S DAY TO ALL WHO HAVE KIDS......

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Wallyg
Thanks for the video, the link, and the pity.



:)

Sorry but...

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I believe that recorded average temperatures have risen approximately one degree in the last 100 years. That's documented and can be proven...

But there is debate whether the current warming trend is a normal climatic variation or whether additional warming would be harmful or beneficial...

They have no idea, but algore wants to have a war on global warming!!

So you're 20 years old, right ?? You know what the headlines were 20 years ago ??

In April 1975 Newsweek posted a short article citing: "ominous signs that the earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically," the magazine warned of an impending "drastic decline in food production." Political disruptions stemming from food shortages could affect "just about every nation on earth." Scientists urged governments to consider emergency action to head off the terrible threat of . . . well, if you had been following the climate-change debates at the time, you'd have known that the threat was: GLOBAL COOLING!!!


So, which is it, warming or cooling ??

And what's even more preposterous is blaming either one on man and or driving SUV's...

algore PLAYED ON OUR FEARS!!!


Global warming...:rolleyes:

So, now you know more than the mojority of the experts on two major topics, evolution and global warming!

Wow, you should be nominated for a Nobel Prize. Maybe Leonardo da Vinci was your great great great etc. grandpa or something!

:rolleyes:

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Wallyg
Sure it takes faith.
No one has shown any concrete proof. Please share some if you have it.
Evolution says :
Time + Chance = Order
That's like saying you can take a box of scrabble letters and throw them up in the air over and over again and eventually you'll get a complete sentence. Logic and statistics easily defeat that equation.
You have to believe in evolution. It is called the "theory of evolution" not the fact.
I see it within species but there is no record of any transitional species anywhere in the rocks and that is where the theory falls apart.
That is where the faith comes in.
Just like any other religion.
You have to believe a reptile became a bird or a whale became a cow. Those are examples I've been taught in classes by "scientists"....without proof of course.
It's all religion after awhile.
When the transitional species fossil records show up then we have proof. Until then we have theories mixed with facts based upon history and/or historical writings which require faith which equals a belief system which is basically a religion of some kind.
Now who's the sheep and from what did they evolve? What planet have you been living on? Lots of said fossils have been found.

Plus, your mind appears to be an exceptionally dimly lit one. Most science is about theory and not rock solid fact. That´s the nature of science, find a theory that works and look for flaws in that theory, or for a better theory. That´s what makes science so much more useful than religion. Scientists accept that they might be mistaken, "believers" don´t.

Without all this theoretical science we most probably wouldn´t be sitting here posting stuff on a so called "world wide web"! Most of the complicated stuff going on in your computer is the result of people putting these theories to work. You´ll never "see" silicon atoms changing slightly as you press a key on your computer. Yet it´s obviously happening. What is actually happening to the atom, and more so on a sub-atom scale, is pure theory, and must therefore, according to your logic, be bullshit until proven in a way 2+2=4 can be proven. Or do you believe some "hand of god" is putting the images on your monitor´s screen?

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by matt19
You can think what you want. But what are you going to do if it just keeps getting worse, what would you blame then? You think people would just want to breathe cleaner air at least but no one wants to make a change. Most American Christian right-wingers are amongst the most selfish hypocrits the planet has ever seen. You gotta love how they´ll tell you you´re risking your comfortable place in afterlife by not believing in a 2000 year old myth that´s obviously not true, while at the same time they´ll gladly risk handing over a completely fucked up planet to their kids and grandchildren, just because they´re afraid of riding their bike to the ice-cream parlor instead of their SUV!

Those fuckers are just scum in my eyes, they deserve no respect whatsoever!

[Seshmeister]

http://imgplace.com/directory/dir4458/1182221833_4213.jpg

[matt19]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
Most American Christian right-wingers are amongst the most selfish hypocrits the planet has ever seen. You gotta love how they´ll tell you you´re risking your comfortable place in afterlife by not believing in a 2000 year old myth that´s obviously not true, while at the same time they´ll gladly risk handing over a completely fucked up planet to their kids and grandchildren, just because they´re afraid of riding their bike to the ice-cream parlor instead of their SUV!

Those fuckers are just scum in my eyes, they deserve no respect whatsoever!

:D

[matt19]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
http://imgplace.com/directory/dir4458/1182221833_4213.jpg


LMMFAO! :D

[Seshmeister]

Finally some proof of creationism...:)

http://imgplace.com/directory/dir4458/1182222346_7400.jpg

[Seshmeister]

:)

http://imgplace.com/directory/dir4459/1182222648_1730.gif

[Seshmeister]

http://imgplace.com/directory/dir4459/1182223010_3876.jpg

[Seshmeister]

http://imgplace.com/directory/dir4459/1182223223_2874.jpg

[matt19]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
http://imgplace.com/directory/dir4459/1182223223_2874.jpg
Isn't that Colorado City, Arizona too?

[jhale667]

:lol: LMAO!!!

[Seshmeister]

It's almost too easy a target to waste time on but I just noticed another schoolboy error.

Some revisionist creationist nuts argue 'ah but we don't know how long each of these days were. Maybe each day was a thousand years or more'.




Genesis Chapter 1

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so



That's on day fucking 2.

Day 3 he suddenly thinks fuck! No sun. How the hell are the plants going to work.:)


13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.



Ooops!