Bin Laden's Best Friend? [Archive] - The Diamond David Lee Roth Army

LoungeMachine

09-10-2007, 01:55 PM

Heard this on Thom Hartmann this morning, and it makes perfect sense...

Allow me to paraphrase...

OBL demanded all US Military out of Saudi Arabia

BUSH did it for him.

BUSH needed another "Pearl Harbor" event

OBL obliged.

OBL wanted to be able to hide in the hills between Pakistan and Afghanistan, so he could continue to work.

BUSH stopeed the forces short, and allowed him to get away.

OBL needed Saddam out of the way, as he was hunting down and killing Jihadists

BUSH obliged.

OBL needed new recruits, and a training ground with plenty of live targets.

BUSH obliged

OBL wanted to be able to fight us in his own backyard, rather than having to try and penetrate our heightened security.

BUSH gladly re-stocks the human targets.

OBL wanted American Forces and Companies to destroy the economy and infrastructure of Iraq.

BUSH sent in Bremer and Halliburton.

What a team these 2 make...

:rolleyes:

DLR'sCock

09-10-2007, 02:06 PM

I noticed these "coincidences" years ago...

LoungeMachine

09-10-2007, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by DLR'sCock
I noticed these "coincidences" years ago...

You've always been ahead of your time. ;)

:gulp:

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 03:08 PM

Why do you think the neocon noise machine started claiming that the Dems were taking their cues, talking points, marching orders, etc. from Osama?

That is how they cloud an argument and give out the talking points that the faithful are sure rattle off over and over.

We have just seen an example of this with cadaverdog. No matter what info was offered to the contrary he remained focused on a single rather thin talking point. A talking point that I have heard from Hannity over and over.

FORD

09-10-2007, 03:22 PM

It's a matter of public record that the BCE and the Bin Laden family have been friends and business partners for decades.

Why should Chimpy and Osama working together surprise anybody?

LoungeMachine

09-10-2007, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by FORD
It's a matter of public record that the BCE and the Bin Laden family have been friends and business partners for decades.

Why should Chimpy and Osama working together surprise anybody?

The private dealings among The House of Saud and The Bushes, The Bin Ladens and The Bushes, Carlyle, etc, etc, etc is one thing...

But the more one steps back and takes a look at the last 7 years, it's starting to look like collusion.

It's looking down-right fucking scripted for fuck's sake.

Neither Bush nor Bin Laden would have the stature among their sheep if it wasn't for the other...

But much like Noriega when he wan no longer any use to the CIA, Osama better look out should Chimpy run out of options.

He may need to call in the last chit.

:gulp:

Warham

09-10-2007, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
Why do you think the neocon noise machine started claiming that the Dems were taking their cues, talking points, marching orders, etc. from Osama?

Because it's true?

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by WARhead
Because it's true?

No.

I know you want to believe in the talking points that you so gleefully spit all over this board.

However, you are unable to back up your many regurgitations with any information.

You take pride in your ignorance.

Warham

09-10-2007, 05:40 PM

Just look at what bin Laden says and what the Democrats say.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/images/cartoons/04/03/18.jpg

hehe!

LoungeMachine

09-10-2007, 05:42 PM

Yet BushCO has FOLLOWED Bin Laden's instructions for the last 6 years. They've done exactly as he's wished.

Bush is Bin Laden's bitch, doing his bidding for him.

Even 'PIG should be able to see that...

:gulp:

Warham

09-10-2007, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Yet BushCO has FOLLOWED Bin Laden's instructions for the last 6 years. They've done exactly as he's wished.

Bush is Bin Laden's bitch, doing his bidding for him.

Even 'PIG should be able to see that...

:gulp:

No, I don't have pinko-colored glasses on, so you'll have to explain yourself.

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 05:57 PM

Come oooooooooon....I could see Bush and his admin being so stupid and hungry for war that they get sucessfully manipulated by OBL over and over again, but outright collusion? That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it?

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 05:59 PM

Warhead the Ignorant is now presenting political cartoons as evidence for his taking points?

Sheesh. Evolution sure shortchanged the Warhead family.

Warham

09-10-2007, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
Warhead the Ignorant is now presenting political cartoons as evidence for his taking points?

Sheesh. Evolution sure shortchanged the Warhead family.

You take only the evidence that fits your view of reality, Cunt.

Like Neo, you need to open your mind.

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
I could see Bush and his admin being so stupid and hungry for war that they get sucessfully manipulated by OBL over and over again, but outright collusion? That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it?

Considering the long business relationship between the Bush and binLaden families, it isn't much of a stretch.

Who has profited as a result of the 911 attacks and Iraq invasion?

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by WAR
You take only the evidence that fits your view of reality, Cunt.

And you have to turn to the cartoons for yours.

Warham

09-10-2007, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
And you have to turn to the cartoons for yours.

Well, I admit I have a better sense of humor than you do. :D

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
Considering the long business relationship between the Bush and binLaden families, it isn't much of a stretch.

Who has profited as a result of the 911 attacks and Iraq invasion?

Yeah - I know the Bush family goes way back with the King of Saud...but isn't OBL, like, a blacksheep in that family? That's the rub, anyway. And if there was ever any hard evidence of Bush colluding with OBL - Bush would be charged with treason and put to death. Fuck, I'd take him out mydamnself. I just can't see it.

Warham

09-10-2007, 06:15 PM

Yes, bin Laden's family disowned him, but you won't catch any of these guys admitting that in here.

There's no evidence of Bush colluding with anybody, unless you happen to be of the DU crowd. Then you'll believe anything that's thrown out there.

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 06:20 PM

Pardon my ignorance but what's the "DU" crowd?

Warham

09-10-2007, 06:24 PM

The DU is the Democratic Underground, a site where liberals who have lost their minds post about how evil George W. Bush and Republicans are, and about how much they love Moveon.org.

It's like a commune. It's the same group of people who compare Bush to Hitler, and say our troops in Iraq are terrorists.

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 06:30 PM

Aha! Never been to that site. I don't think Bush is like Hitler. I think he is more like Bozo the Clown.

Warham

09-10-2007, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
Aha! Never been to that site. I don't think Bush is like Hitler. I think he is more like Bozo the Clown.

Well, you definately don't fit the bill. You sound like my father-in-law.

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 06:40 PM

Sometimes I hear wisdom coming from the right though not as often as I hear it from the left (just my opinion). Yet I rarely hear it coming from the fringe of either end of the political spectrum. But I am not presumptuous enough to belive that I have the answers.

OK - this is getting off topic...sorry.

Warham

09-10-2007, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
Sometimes I hear wisdom coming from the right though not as often as I hear it from the left (just my opinion). Yet I rarely hear it coming from the fringe of either end of the political spectrum. But I am not presumptuous enough to belive that I have the answers.

OK - this is getting off topic...sorry.

This isn't an attack, so don't take it that way. I'll actually have a rational discussion with you, unlike a few other people here.

What wisdom do you speak of that you hear coming from the left more than the right?

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 07:11 PM

Well....I don't want to hijack LM's thread here but since another mod specifically asked me a question:

Primarily, I think the rich are way too rich and the poor are way to poor. Taxation is an acceptable way to redistribute the wealth - to insure that basic necessities are covered for all Americans. If it means some highly productive capitalists won't be able to afford a house in the Hamptons or a third sports car, so be it.

Socialism would never work, certainly not in a country as populous as ours. We need some kind of invisible hand guiding the economy. It can't be micro-managed by bureaucrats. But this whole mind-set that if taxes are too high, people will lose incentive to work and take initiatives - that shit has to change.

And on the issue of war (and I acknowledge plenty of Democrats in Congress voted their approval of the current one) every opportunity to avoid war MUST be taken and then taken again and again before we commit our soldiers to die and kill in another country.

Humanitarian missions are one thing, for example, I thought we needed to get more involved in the travesty that happened in the former Yugoslavia 15 years ago (not necessarily a full scale invasion...). But as I recall, the right shot that down as a "quagmire" repeating buzz phrases such as "we can't be the world's police". Well, what gives in 2002? Talk about a quagmire! That's exactly what we have now.

It seems to me that information was manipulated by the right to make it seem like Sadam was on the verge of developing WMD, when this was not the case. It was a manipulation of the American public at a time when we were all vulnerable (right after 9/11) and it makes me very angry. So in general, the support coming from the right of the Iraq invasion seems like drivel to me.

To be fair, I don't give politicians, such as Ms. Clinton, much credit for joining the anti-war bandwagon now that she is running for President, and using the excuse that she relied upon information provided by the administration to support her record. I'm sorry - she should have done some independent research before she voted to commit the troops. A more likely scenario is that she just wanted to vote for whatever was popular and now that the war has become unpopular, she shifts her position accordingly.

OK...this is turning into a loooooong post (too long).

LoungeMachine

09-10-2007, 07:18 PM

Great post, Hyman.

You're much closer to my side of the aisle than WarPIG's. No question.

Now go take your nap.

When you awake, the money will be on the table, and you'll know you have a partner.

:gulp:

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 07:25 PM

Ha!

I would give 2 million just to be able to take a piss without it hurting!

ODShowtime

09-10-2007, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by WAR
No, I don't have pinko-colored glasses on, so you'll have to explain yourself.

I love how you answer to "pig" now, as if your truncated name wasn't funny enough.

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 07:38 PM

LoungeMachine

09-10-2007, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by WAR
The DU is the Democratic Underground, a site where liberals who have lost their minds post about how evil George W. Bush and Republicans are, and about how much they love Moveon.org.

It's like a commune. It's the same group of people who compare Bush to Hitler, and say our troops in Iraq are terrorists.

And for the WARPIG commune check out www.freerepublic.com One of BigBlandBrie's fave spots....

The freepers like 'PIG make Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity look sane and well spoken.

:D

:gulp:

ODShowtime

09-10-2007, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
Yeah - I know the Bush family goes way back with the King of Saud...but isn't OBL, like, a blacksheep in that family? That's the rub, anyway. And if there was ever any hard evidence of Bush colluding with OBL - Bush would be charged with treason and put to death. Fuck, I'd take him out mydamnself. I just can't see it.

Come on. Follow the money.

"It's crazy" ok

"It's too complicated and paranoid to be true" sure

"shit like this only happens in star wars movies" I agree

But you can't see it at all?

At this stage, either the leaders we elected the last 10 years are completely incompetent into the realm of negligence, or they are in collusion.

Which is more likely? I don't know.

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
So was Osama disowned before or after his half brother invested in a small oil company owned by GW?

I dunno. You tell me. Probly before. I thought Osama had, like, 19 brothers from his father's 22 some odd wifes and that he has fathered 24 children himself. I don't think the relationship of "brother" means the same thing in Saudi Arabia as it does the United States. Query whether the gentle man of which you speak was OBL brother by blood or half-brother.

I thought his citizenship was revoked and he had to high tail it to Sudan because he took issue with the alliance of Saudi Arabia and the international coalition during the first Bush war. I don't honestly know...

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
I dunno. You tell me. Probly before. I thought Osama had, like, 19 brothers from his father's 22 some odd wifes and that he has fathered 24 children himself. I don't think the relationship of "brother" means the same thing in Saudi Arabia as it does the United States. Query whether the gentle man of which you speak was OBL brother by blood or half-brother.

I thought his citizenship was revoked and he had to high tail it to Sudan because he took issue with the alliance of Saudi Arabia and the international coalition during the first Bush war. I don't honestly know...

So the man in charge used to do business with the half brother of the man responsible for the 911 attacks? Both members of the oppressive royal family of the country where most of the hijackers came from? Coincidence?

It sounds like you have some research to do.

Lqskdiver

09-10-2007, 08:31 PM

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by ODShowtime
Come on. Follow the money.

"It's crazy" ok

"It's too complicated and paranoid to be true" sure

"shit like this only happens in star wars movies" I agree

But you can't see it at all?

At this stage, either the leaders we elected the last 10 years are completely incompetent into the realm of negligence, or they are in collusion.

Which is more likely? I don't know.

I hear ya! I think DC asked the question earlier "who profited from the invasion". I'll admit its a rather salacious, interesting way to analyze the situation.

But I think I have seen NickDFresh and others use this argument to debunk the 9-11 / inside job conspiracy:

I just don't see how the administration could pull it off without getting caught. And they had to have considered the high risk of getting caught and the severity of the punishment. Its way too complicated to pull it off without some kind of "paper trail", so to speak.

Reagan got busted dealing Arms to the Contra's, they busted Gonzales with a few emails and a his inconsistent statements trying to cover it up, for God sakes, they even caught poor Larry Craig trying to get a little man-love in a public restroom. The list goes on and on.

Who in the Bush inner-circle is so competent to pull something like this off without someone catching wind of it? Scooter Libby? Oh yeah - he got busted too!! Email, I think it was...

Its much easier for me to picture an incompetent President and staff, comprised of people greedy enough to profit off a war and make life and death decisions motivated by their selfishness than it is for me to picture a brilliant team of geo-political experts capable of manipulating the world press, other powerful governments and Democrats out for their pound of flesh as well!

:D

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
So the man in charge used to do business with the half brother of the man responsible for the 911 attacks? Both members of the oppressive royal family of the country where most of the hijackers came from? Coincidence?

It sounds like you have some research to do.

Dude - I've been looking up boring shit all day. If I can't post about it without looking it up, I'll just have to take your word for it for now and put it on the long list of things I wish I knew more about. I tried to make it sound like I was just shooting the shit...I guess I failed.

ODShowtime

09-10-2007, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Lqskdiver
And it took the members of the Roth Army to figure it out and put it all together.

I knew this was an elite bunch, but one that is bringing down the Presidency...

:rolleyes:

Again, you and your cohorts have been having one too many tugs off the blunt.

:smoke2:

Don't be jealous that you spent your life following the rules while the rest of us had fun.

I wish I could hear a gw speech and be comforted that the gov't was helping me. But I know better.

ODShowtime

09-10-2007, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
Its much easier for me to picture an incompetent President and staff, comprised of people greedy enough to profit off a war and make life and death decisions motivated by their selfishness than it is for me to picture a brilliant team of geo-political experts capable of manipulating the world press, other powerful governments and Democrats out for their pound of flesh as well!

:D

Yeah, you're right. Incompetence is always the logical culprit. Especially judging by some of the mouthbreathers who post here. I'm referring to Lqskdiver of course.

Nitro Express

09-10-2007, 08:41 PM

Not to mention daddy Bush was director of the CIA when Osama was helping us throw a wrench into the Soviet takeover of Afganistahn. Also, the Bin Ladden Group were investors in the Carlyle Group along with the Bush family. Not to mention the Bin Ladden Group got contracts to build facilities for the US Govt.

Too many ties in my book. It's not like Osama Bin Laddan had no ties to the US, CIA, and Bush family before 9/11.

We can catch Saddam Hussain but we can't catch a 7 foot tall goon on a kidney dialisis machine?

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 08:43 PM

I thought his post was funny this time. So was your retort. I read y'alls exchange in the Trucker thread as well and got a good laugh. Siris should get you two to do a radio show together. :D

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by Nitro Express

....

We can catch Saddam Hussain but we can't catch a 7 foot tall goon on a kidney dialisis machine? [/B]

LMMFAO!!

Man - don't throw any more facts into this thread. Can't you see I am already confused? :D

ODShowtime

09-10-2007, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
I thought his post was funny this time. So was your retort. I read y'alls exchange in the Trucker thread as well and got a good laugh. Siris should get you two to do a radio show together. :D

I doubt it. He only has one joke that he's used about 3 times so far today.

At least he can mix it up. BBB ran away and pig is just pathetic these days.

:rolleyes:

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 08:54 PM

Man, there is a lot of hatred in this political forum it seems.

Are you guys all really cool with each other because we are all Americans (or at least on the same planet) and Van Halen fans or what?

Its kinda jammin' me a bit.

Lqskdiver

09-10-2007, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
I thought his post was funny this time. So was your retort. I read y'alls exchange in the Trucker thread as well and got a good laugh. Siris should get you two to do a radio show together. :D

I'd go for it and ask for TOPBILLING. Unfortunately, OD's stutter and lack of personality would only get us on NPR or some AM station slot between the financial news and Good Nursery Tips. My name would still go first, though.

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 09:13 PM

http://e.photos.cx/ohsnap2-547.gif

http://e.photos.cx/ohsnap-41f.gif

Hyman Roth

09-10-2007, 09:14 PM

Hey...wait a minute. I listen to NPR all day long. :mad:

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
Dude - I've been looking up boring shit all day. If I can't post about it without looking it up, I'll just have to take your word for it for now and put it on the long list of things I wish I knew more about. I tried to make it sound like I was just shooting the shit...I guess I failed.

Don't go getting your feelings hurt.

There are others here who know about the many Bush/bin Laden connections. Maybe they will join in.

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
Man, there is a lot of hatred in this political forum it seems.

Are you guys all really cool with each other because we are all Americans (or at least on the same planet) and Van Halen fans or what?

Its kinda jammin' me a bit.

I don't hate anyone here. This is fun and informative for me. We play rough around here and I am willing to put up with some abuse for the privilege.

I even missed Warhead when he was on "vacation." Clinton hadn't been mentioned in weeks!

Elly is interesting and unusually articulate. Lounge is fun (and not Kip Winger, by the way) and can be a very amusing dickhead. Nickd, ODShowtime, FORD, cadaverdog. I enjoy every one's input. Especially the ones begging to be owned with every post, like the "gentlemen" in my sig.

Good riddance to BBB, though. Serious douche.

Warham

09-10-2007, 09:47 PM

Warham

09-10-2007, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by ODShowtime
I doubt it. He only has one joke that he's used about 3 times so far today.

At least he can mix it up. BBB ran away and pig is just pathetic these days.

:rolleyes:

Why the hatred, OD?

Brian's not here to defend himself, and who's this 'pig' you keep referring to?

You guys need to sit back and smoke some weeeeed.

Warham

09-10-2007, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
Man, there is a lot of hatred in this political forum it seems.

Are you guys all really cool with each other because we are all Americans (or at least on the same planet) and Van Halen fans or what?

Its kinda jammin' me a bit.

Seriously, there's like ten people who post here on a regular basis, and these two or three (need I name them?) that think they are some kind of braintrust spreading the gospel of anti-Bush.

These guys would get their asses handed to them on any forum that took itself seriously, but they stay here in the cozy confines.

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by WAR
These guys would get their asses handed to them on any forum that took itself seriously, but they stay here in the cozy confines.

You sure took this place seriously when you complained to the webmasters about the forum. Claiming that things were going to change, threatening to close threads, etc. After your power grab failed you left on "vacation" with your tail between your legs.

Warham

09-10-2007, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
I don't hate anyone here. This is fun and informative for me. We play rough around here and I am willing to put up with some abuse for the privilege.

I even missed Warhead when he was on "vacation." Clinton hadn't been mentioned in weeks!

Elly is interesting and unusually articulate. Lounge is fun (and not Kip Winger, by the way) and can be a very amusing dickhead. Nickd, ODShowtime, FORD, cadaverdog. I enjoy every one's input. Especially the ones begging to be owned with every post, like the "gentlemen" in my sig.

Good riddance to BBB, though. Serious douche.

Oh, I love you too! :D

I think you guys are too rough on Brian. He's a nice guy, and he's a vet. He'll always get a bonus point from me just for that.

Warham

09-10-2007, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
You sure took this place seriously when you complained to the webmasters about the forum. Claiming that things were going to change, threatening to close threads, etc. After your power grab failed you left on "vacation" with your tail between your legs.

I don't remember you being a recipient of any PMs I sent to the webmasters here. Did I add you on those?

I threatened things around here just as much as any other mod has, but you would ignore that, right?

I know you felt threatened, didn't ya? Where was the power grab? I'm such a fascist around here, aren't I, closing all your threads?

Warham

09-10-2007, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
And for the WARPIG commune check out www.freerepublic.com One of BigBlandBrie's fave spots....

The freepers like 'PIG make Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity look sane and well spoken.

:D

:gulp:

I've read a few threads there, and they do look sane compared to those nuts over at the DU.

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by WAR
I don't remember you being a recipient of any PMs I sent to the webmasters here. Did I add you on those?

I threatened things around here just as much as any other mod has, but you would ignore that, right?

I know you felt threatened, didn't ya? Where was the power grab? I'm such a fascist around here, aren't I, closing all your threads?

Oh, the tears you cried. It was hilarious.

Ha ha! Where was the powergrab indeed.

Threatened by a chump like you? Please.

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by WAR
I've read a few threads there, and they do look sane compared to those nuts over at the DU.

Of course you think so. Clinton this, Clinton that, Dems love Osama, Obama Osama, Billary, $400 haircuts, etc.

It's the same pablum you bring here.

Warham

09-10-2007, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
Oh, the tears you cried. It was hilarious.

Ha ha! Where was the powergrab indeed.

Threatened by a chump like you? Please.

The tears I cried? I haven't cried since I saw Titanic in the movie theater back in '97.

I wasn't going for any powergrab, whatever that means. I've actually asked to get out of being a moderator, but Pojo seems to like me too much. It's a tough situation.

You were shaking like a leaf, but I'll admit, I like you too much to stuff your threads.

Warham

09-10-2007, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
Of course you think so. Clinton this, Clinton that, Dems love Osama, Obama Osama, Billary, $400 haircuts, etc.

It's the same pablum you bring here.

I haven't mentioned Edwards $400 haircut, but I'm glad you brought that up. Thanks!

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by WAR
Oh, I love you too! :D

I think you guys are too rough on Brian. He's a nice guy, and he's a vet. He'll always get a bonus point from me just for that.

Ew!

Yeah, somtimes I felt bad for BBB. I gotta say that he asked for some of it.

Warham

09-10-2007, 10:12 PM

Well, sure, we all ask for it! Isn't that why we're here?

Brian posted too many op-eds, I'll admit, but we all have our flaws.

DEMON CUNT

09-10-2007, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by WAR
The tears I cried? I haven't cried since I saw Titanic in the movie theater back in '97.

I wasn't going for any powergrab, whatever that means. I've actually asked to get out of being a moderator, but Pojo seems to like me too much. It's a tough situation.

You were shaking like a leaf, but I'll admit, I like you too much to stuff your threads.

You know what you posted in that thread in the webmaster forum.

You are right, do not upset Pojo.

Geez, it's getting mushy in here.