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LoungeMachine
09-13-2007, 06:43 PM
Our own little drinking game.

Take a shot everytime Chimpy leans on 9/11 tonight.

Don't forget to vote.

:gulp:

Bush's Speech: Treading Water

Thursday, Sep. 13, 2007 By TONY KARON


Strip away the varnish that President Bush will apply when he addresses the nation Thursday night, and the truth about Iraq is grim. Four and a half years after the launch of Operation Iraqi Freedom, a war that has cost America thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars is nowhere near a satisfactory conclusion.


The good news, as presented by military commander General David Petraeus, is that the situation is not deteriorating as rapidly as it was a year ago. The level of violence in Iraq, he appeared to be arguing ¡ª although his metrics were widely contested ¡ª has been reduced to those of the summer of 2006. Should such progress continue, it will be possible, he said, to reduce the U.S. troop commitment in Iraq by the summer of 2008 to the force levels of the summer of 2006.

"Accepting" this suggestion will be the headline centerpiece of President Bush's speech as he looks to reassure a nation that a light shines at the end of the tunnel. But it has been widely known by everyone in Washington ¡ª and, no doubt, by the field commanders of the various enemy formations America confronts in Iraq, who also watch CNN ¡ª that the U.S. could simply not sustain the troop levels of the surge much beyond next spring without seriously damaging its military. The drawdown, in other words, is not necessarily a sign of progress; it was inevitable given the current size of America's military.

More worrying, perhaps, is the fact that the levels of violence that prevailed in Iraq in the summer of 2006, even if they later became worse, were already horrific. In the best-case scenario, the surge has managed to tamp down the spike in violence that has occurred over the past year, but the surge itself is finite. So, it is hard to avoid the impression that the U.S. is essentially treading water in Iraq. And the various insurgencies and militias it confronts have the advantage of being the home team, which allows for patience greater than that of a military deployed thousands of miles away from home.

The surge was conceived of as a drive to take control of the streets, particularly Baghdad, in order to allow Iraq's elected politicians a safer environment in which to forge the vital compromises on issues ranging from reintegrating members of Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party into government and security structures to the sharing of oil revenues ¡ª in short, to negotiate their way to a stable power-sharing arrangement. That, quite simply, has not happened, nor is there any sign that it's likely to. The reason the politicians have failed to agree is not the violence on the streets; the violence itself is in most instances a symptom of the power struggles between Shi'ite, Sunni and Kurdish factions, as well as, in some cases, the internecine struggles for political dominance within those communities. The power struggle among Iraqis is nowhere near over.

So limited has progress been on the political front that the prime achievement the Bush Administration has been touting is the alliance the U.S. has struck up with Sunni tribal sheikhs in Anbar province against al-Qaeda. This is certainly an important tactical advance in confronting the jihadists in Iraq ¡ª although it's not entirely clear whether the greater shift has come from the sheikhs (long a backbone of both the Saddam regime and then of the insurgency), or from the U.S. in finally recognizing that the Ba'athists were open to cooperation against al-Qaeda. Although the fighters represented by the Anbar sheikhs made common cause with the jihadists for a time against the invader, the sheikhs have recognized that the Qaeda forces in their midst are doing them more harm than good.

But the groups with which the U.S. is cooperating in Anbar are not only outside of the Iraqi government; they are actively opposed to it, seeing it as a Shi'ite entity beholden to Iran. Such cooperation helps deal with the problem of al-Qaeda in Iraq ¡ª a brutal presence, to be sure, but still a minority element in the overall Sunni insurgency ¡ª but it doesn't necessarily reinforce national reconciliation.

If the U.S. is forced to make such local-level arrangements to deal with local-level problems, that's because the central government is an ineffective vehicle for the U.S. agenda, or, indeed, for any sort of governance right now. Having conceded to the principle of Iraqi sovereignty, however, Washington is in no position to change Iraq's government.

The testimony this week from Ambassador Ryan Crocker and General David Petraeus on Capitol Hill appeared to offer a reality check to a legislature whose debate on Iraq often appears disconnected from reality. The "benchmarks" set by Congress to measure Iraqi progress and justify the U.S. deployment were criticized by Ambassador Crocker as unrealistic. Indeed, they are U.S.-designed goals that Washington has spent years cajoling Iraqi politicians to pursue. But aside from promises, there's been scant evidence of any genuine Iraqi intent to implement them. The Iraqi leaders are unlikely to believe that the U.S. will make its decisions on how long to remain in Iraq based on their performance. They know that political and military realities will eventually force the U.S. to leave, and some of the key Iraqi players are using that as an opportunity to best position themselves for the power struggles ahead. Moqtada Sadr is a prime example: His tactical shifts between standing down his forces and alternately confronting the Americans, the Sunnis and his Shi'ite rivals suggest a strategy of boosting his position while husbanding his political and military resources for a post-U.S. power struggle.

While the Democrats will demand an accelerated troop reduction, that position may be more politically convenient than practical. By invading Iraq, the U.S. irreversibly altered the balance of power throughout the Middle East; now, Iraq cannot be treated as a policy decision in isolation from the full spectrum of U.S. interests throughout the region ¡ª all of which will be calamitously weakened if the U.S. were to precipitously retreat.

While the congressional discussion focused on the failure to achieve consensus among Iraq politicians, it may be that the absence of a consensus on Iraq between the U.S. and Iraq's neighbors is even more dangerous. Given the weakness of the central government in Iraq, stability there is unlikely without an agreement among Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey and Iran over managing the political contest there. The most powerful stakeholder among them is Iran, which has close ties to the dominant political parties returned by the Iraqi electorate. And as long as Iran believes the U.S. is pursuing a policy of regime-change in Tehran, it has little incentive to help out Washington.

Almost five years into the Iraq war, there's every reason to expect that the grim Iraq scenarios presented this week by General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker will be largely similar to those that will be on the desk of the incoming U.S. President in January 2009. From what we were told this week, it appears likely that the next Administration will inherit an Iraq with nearly as many troops as were there in the summer of 2006.

President Bush will console himself that at least he avoided the spectacle of an ignominious U.S. retreat from Iraq on his watch. But his successor will be handed a poisoned chalice.

ODShowtime
09-13-2007, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine


Strip away the varnish that President Bush will apply when he addresses the nation Thursday night, and the truth about Iraq is grim. Four and a half years after the launch of Operation Iraqi Freedom, a war that has cost America thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars is nowhere near a satisfactory conclusion.


Sounds like an important speech! I hope they have it on at cheetah's tonight.



But it has been widely known by everyone in Washington ¡ª and, no doubt, by the field commanders of the various enemy formations America confronts in Iraq, who also watch CNN ¡ª that the U.S. could simply not sustain the troop levels of the surge much beyond next spring without seriously damaging its military.

1. Does that mean we are unprepared to deploy the military anywhere else? That's got to be empowering to our enemies. I thought we were safer now.

2. So that means all the insurgent have to do is wait until next spring and then start attacking again. What's the difference if we leave now or then? Why let more Americans be murdered by those animals? What's the point? It's going to be a disaster no matter what.

LoungeMachine
09-13-2007, 07:04 PM
I voted for 6-10, having already seen Elly's package.

So, he's announcing we're cutting and running, 5,600 at a time?

:rolleyes:

Talk about throwing meat to shut up the lions....

:gulp:

ODShowtime
09-13-2007, 07:10 PM
So limited has progress been on the political front that the prime achievement the Bush Administration has been touting is the alliance the U.S. has struck up with Sunni tribal sheikhs in Anbar province against al-Qaeda. This is certainly an important tactical advance in confronting the jihadists in Iraq ¡ª although it's not entirely clear whether the greater shift has come from the sheikhs (long a backbone of both the Saddam regime and then of the insurgency), or from the U.S. in finally recognizing that the Ba'athists were open to cooperation against al-Qaeda. Although the fighters represented by the Anbar sheikhs made common cause with the jihadists for a time against the invader, the sheikhs have recognized that the Qaeda forces in their midst are doing them more harm than good.

Sounds good. Too bad their leader was murdered by al qaeda today:






Key anti-al-Qaida sheik slain in Iraq

By ROBERT H. REID, Associated Press Writer 39 minutes ago

The assassination Thursday of the leader of the Sunni Arab revolt against al-Qaida militants dealt a setback to one of the few success stories in U.S. efforts to stabilize Iraq, but tribesmen in Anbar province vowed not to be deterred in fighting the terror movement.

American and Iraqi officials hoped the death of Abdul-Sattar Abu Risha would not stall the campaign to drive al-Qaida in Iraq from the vast province spreading west of Baghdad and reconcile Sunnis with the Shiite-led national government.

It was the biggest blow to the Anbar tribal alliance since a suicide bomber killed four anti-al-Qaida sheiks as they met in a Baghdad hotel in June. Abu Risha himself had escaped a suicide attack in February. But those attacks and others did not stop the campaign against al-Qaida.

Abu Risha, head of the Anbar Awakening Council who met with President Bush just 10 days earlier, died when a roadside bomb exploded near his home just west of Ramadi as he returned from his farm, police Col. Tareq Youssef said. Two bodyguards and the driver also were killed.

Moments later a car bomb exploded nearby but caused no casualties. An Interior Ministry spokesman, Maj. Gen. Abdul-Karim Khalaf, said the second bomb was intended as a backup in case Abu Risha escaped the first blast.

The attack occurred one year after the goateed, charismatic, chain-smoking young sheik organized 25 Sunni Arab clans into an alliance against al-Qaida in Iraq, seeking to drive the terror movement from sanctuaries where it had flourished after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.

No group claimed responsibility for the assassination, but it was widely assumed to have been carried out by al-Qaida, which already had killed four of Abu Risha's brothers and six other relatives for working with the U.S. military.

U.S. officials credit Abu Risha and allied sheiks with a dramatic improvement in security in such Anbar flashpoints as Fallujah and Ramadi after years of American failure to subdue the extremists. U.S. officials now talk of using the Anbar model to organize tribal fighters elsewhere in Iraq.

Abu Risha's allies as well as U.S. and Iraqi officials insisted the assassination would not deter them from fighting al-Qaida, and the tribal alliance appears to have gained enough momentum to survive the loss of a single figure, no matter how key. Late Thursday, Abu Risha's brother, Ahmed, was selected to replace him as head of the council.

Still, the loss of such a charismatic leader is bound to complicate efforts to recruit more tribal leaders in the war against the terror network. Two Pentagon officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak about the matter, said the assassination sent a chilling message about the consequences of cooperating with the Americans.

"This is a criminal act and al-Qaida is behind it," said Sheik Jubeir Rashid, a senior member of Abu Risha's council. "We have to admit that it is a major blow to the council. But we are determined to strike back and continue our work. Such attack was expected, but this will not deter us."

Ali Hatem al-Sulaiman, deputy chief of the province's biggest Sunni tribe, said that if "only one small boy remains alive in Anbar, we will not hand the province over to al-Qaida."

Islamic extremist Web sites praised the killing in a flurry of postings, one of which called Abu Risha "one of the biggest pigs of the Crusaders," meaning the Americans. Another said Abu Risha would spend the Muslim holy month of Ramadan "in the pits of hell."

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, a Shiite who had been reluctant to support Abu Risha, expressed "great sorrow" over the killing, but said he was confident "that this criminal act will strengthen the determination of Anbar people to wipe out the terrorists."

During a visit Sept. 3 to al-Asad Air Base, Bush hailed the courage of Abu Risha and others "who have made a decision to reject violence and murder in return for moderation and peace."

"I'm looking forward to hearing from the tribal leaders who led the fight against the terrorists and are now leading the effort to rebuild their communities," Bush said. "I'm going to reassure them that America does not abandon our friends, and America will not abandon the Iraqi people."

In his appearance before Congress this week to testify about the situation in Iraq, the top U.S. military commander, Gen. David Petraeus, often cited the recent success in Anbar of the forces organized by Abu Risha, and he called the leader's killing tragic.

"It's a terrible loss for Anbar province and all of Iraq," Petraeus said in a statement released in Washington. "It shows how significant his importance was and it shows al-Qaida in Iraq remains a very dangerous and barbaric enemy. He was an organizing force that did help organize alliances and did help keep the various tribes together."

Bush spokeswoman Dana Perino said Abu Risha "was one of the first to come forward to want to work with the United States to repel al-Qaida."

She said U.S. officials would "redouble our efforts" to work with local Iraqis to build support against those behind such killings. "There has been a complete shift in attitude over the past year or so and we have to capitalize on that," Perino said.

It was unclear how the killers managed to penetrate the web of security which protected Abu Risha, suggesting someone in his clan might have turned against him.

Abu Risha, who was in his mid-30s, lived in a walled compound of several villas that were home to him and his extended family, across the street from the largest U.S. military base in Ramadi. Within the walls were camels, other animals and palm trees, which he showed off to visitors.

He spent his days meeting with tribal sheiks, discussing the fate of Anbar and al-Qaida. He was constantly busy, with lines of people waiting to speak to him, and took endless calls on his cell phone.

He smoked profusely and drank endless glasses of sweet tea. He carried a pistol, usually stuck in a holster strapped around his waist, and dressed in traditional flowing robes and headdresses.

Many Ramadi residents reacted with shock and sadness, calling Abu Risha a "hero" who helped pacify their city.

"We were able to reopen our shops and send our children back to school," said Alaa Abid, who owns an auto parts store. "Now we're afraid that the black days of al-Qaida will return to our city."

A U.S. general, meanwhile, said a fatal attack on the headquarters garrison of the American military in Iraq this week was carried out with 240 mm rocket — a type of weapon that he said Iran provides to Shiite extremists.

One person was killed and 11 were wounded in the attack Tuesday outside Baghdad at Camp Victory, which includes the headquarters of Multinational Forces-Iraq.

Maj. Gen. Kevin Bergner said the rocket was launched from the Rasheed district of west Baghdad, which he said was infiltrated by breakaway factions of the Mahdi Army militia of Muqtada al-Sadr.

Displaying a twisted piece of shrapnel from the attack, Bergner said military experts had so far determined only that its markings and manufacture were "consistent with" Iranian-produced munitions.

"Can I hold up a piece of fragment today that has a specific marking on it that traces this back to Iranian making?" he said. "At this moment I can't do that, but explosive experts — as I said — are still analyzing all the different fragments that they have gathered."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070913/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AmacJ_oW7hEcjfv1S7zxQzlvaA8F

How many times will al qaeda embarrass us?

Ellyllions
09-13-2007, 07:20 PM
I'm just trying to figure out how I got into the poll at all...

LoungeMachine
09-13-2007, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Ellyllions
I'm just trying to figure out how I got into the poll at all...

Old Republican trick....

Distract the voters while you lie to them.

Sorry to use you in such a way....

:gulp:

Ellyllions
09-13-2007, 07:26 PM
ah, hah!
Clever.

I hope that you get Hemorrhoids the size of clementines.

Warham
09-13-2007, 07:30 PM
How about all the troops?

LoungeMachine
09-13-2007, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by WAR
How about all the troops?

Leave enough to safely guard the embassey.

If they become targets, pull them out too.

Let the fucking Iraqis stand on their own.

Biden is right though. They will eventually split into 3 countries.

Kurdistan
Shiastan
Sunnistan

" Iraq " doesnt exist, it never has.

Warham
09-13-2007, 07:36 PM
Biden's pretty smart. That's the way they should do it.

LoungeMachine
09-13-2007, 07:43 PM
Biden would make an incredible Sec. of State

:cool:

LoungeMachine
09-13-2007, 07:44 PM
Enough of this fucking level-headed, makes sense to me, WARHAM

Bring back the old stuck in the mud, Bush apologist!!

;)

Warham
09-13-2007, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Enough of this fucking level-headed, makes sense to me, WARHAM

Bring back the old stuck in the mud, Bush apologist!!

;)

I can't go back...I just can't. :)

FORD
09-13-2007, 09:08 PM
Mike Malloy is carrying Chimpy's speech live. This should be good ;)

FORD
09-13-2007, 09:15 PM
What does the Chimpometer have to say about this speech??

http://texasholdemblogger.files.wordpress.com/2006/08/bullshit-o-meter.gif

Warham
09-13-2007, 09:34 PM
It was a laugher.

38 countries helping us? What the fuck!

Warham
09-13-2007, 09:36 PM
I'm getting ill...

FORD
09-13-2007, 09:40 PM
Are there ANY other countries that still have troops in Iraq?

Warham
09-13-2007, 10:13 PM
Britain has a few thousand, but I don't think anybody else is left. Maybe Australia has a few...

FORD
09-13-2007, 10:19 PM
I thought the Brits went home?

Warham
09-13-2007, 10:56 PM
They sent 500 home, I think. They closed up one of their bases.

Ellyllions
09-14-2007, 08:52 AM
How much further will he go to be correct?

I can't agree with the likes of Moveon.org, but I'm not supporting this anymore either.

DEMON CUNT
09-14-2007, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Ellyllions
How much further will he go to be correct?

I can't agree with the likes of Moveon.org, but I'm not supporting this anymore either.

What? No longer impressed by the President's determined and steely resolve? No longer impressed by his laser-like focus on the enemies of freedom and democracy?

Seriously, what do you mean by "likes of Moveon.org"? Why does that fringe site get so much mention?

LoungeMachine
09-14-2007, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Ellyllions
How much further will he go to be correct?

.

The term: Last man Standing comes to mind. :(

I honestly believe he'd sacrifice all 160,000 troops to prove the world he was right, and they were wrong.

Ellyllions
09-14-2007, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
What? No longer impressed by the President's determined and steely resolve? No longer impressed by his laser-like focus on the enemies of freedom and democracy?

Seriously, what do you mean by "likes of Moveon.org"? Why does that fringe site get so much mention?

A true sign of intelligence is when a person will change their mind.

When this became a civil war amongst the factions in Iraq, and it was clear some months ago, I posted that we should pull out. Either stand at the Iraqi borders to keep others from trying to take advantage of the instability and let them solve it, or come home and seal our borders. At this point, our soldiers are sitting in the middle of a boiling point that's not only dangerous but uncontrollable. Today isn't the first day of my shift in attitude.

But...what's going to happen with Iran worries me. But we can't solve that either, so there's nothing left to do.

I did, however, have an interesting conversation with a Green Beret this weekend who enlightened me on the aspects and planning that involves Syria that I swore not to share. But keep a weather eye on the horizon that you'll be hearing some news on Syria in the near future. And it won't be good news.

Moveon.org gets so much attention because they demand it. They do things like the latest shitty ad. I refuse to subscribe to anyone who uses sensationalism on either side. Rep or Dem.

Lounge, what bothers me most about his attitude with this is that I don't even think he sees those troops as human beings anymore. I believe that he's become displaced in his own mind and succumbed to the idea that this war isn't real. I know he's been over there lately but it completely behooves me as to why he's standing so firm on a plane of sand that's slipping from under him.

BTW, that Green Beret did say one thing that I will share which really set a fire under my ass. He said that those who don't support the war, don't support the troops.....

LoungeMachine
09-14-2007, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Ellyllions
A true sign of intelligence is when a person will change their mind.




Well that line certainly speaks volumes about our pResident.

Ellyllions
09-14-2007, 10:28 AM
Can I get an amen?!

So, the Petraeus hearings are still going on and the news cuts to the President. He'd called a meeting of the heads of both political parties to discuss the War in Iraq.

I'm thinking, "There you go George. You're watching what's happening, you are opening to the idea that it's time to do something ELSE..." Just a smidgen of hope with a dash of pride, but more relieved than anything.

Then he opens his mouth last night.
I thought, "Fuck."

LoungeMachine
09-14-2007, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Ellyllions




Lounge, what bothers me most about his attitude with this is that I don't even think he sees those troops as human beings anymore.


anymore? :confused:

He's never treated them as anything but pawns and/or props.

His latest Anbar Photo-op proves my point.

He doesnt give a shit about any of them. Never has.

Neither did Rummy.

But then, sometimes you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want. :rolleyes:

If ELVIS is right, and there is a hell, I hope W gets his own little corner.

knuckleboner
09-14-2007, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by DEMON CUNT


Seriously, what do you mean by "likes of Moveon.org"? Why does that fringe site get so much mention?

because, for whatever reason, they get a decent amount of press and oftentimes make it harder to have legitimate criticism of the administration as it can all get lumped together with the more radical and questionable complaints.

Ellyllions
09-14-2007, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
anymore? :confused:

He's never treated them as anything but pawns and/or props.

His latest Anbar Photo-op proves my point.

He doesnt give a shit about any of them. Never has.

Neither did Rummy.

But then, sometimes you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want. :rolleyes:

If ELVIS is right, and there is a hell, I hope W gets his own little corner.

Well, it's the General's jobs to treat troops like "assets" and not people.

At this point in this, the troops (assets) are surrounded, crippled, hog tied in the middle of a civil war that doesn't even involve them.

THAT's when the President needs to be the boss.


I stand by my earlier opinion that it's the Pentagon, the department of Defense and our intelligence agencies that have caused this to be the way it is. I'm now waiting for George to be the manager he's supposed to be.

Nickdfresh
09-14-2007, 10:44 AM
I didn't bother watching the clown's speech last night. The Red Sox were beating the shit out of Baltimore.

But from what I've gathered over the past few days- so Bush is going to send about 30,000 troops back home by next spring?

Really? No shit!

Um, the Generals (probably including Petraeus --secretly) have been telling him that the US Army will become combat ineffective by next summer if we keep the troop level at 170,000 for any longer.

Any talk of a drawdown based on successes or performance is completely disingenuous. They're all full of shit! We're going to begin a slow, methodical withdrawl, largely because we have too with a small all-volunteer Army...

Nickdfresh
09-14-2007, 10:46 AM
Who wants to be the last soldier to die in Iraq for a corrupt, militia-gov't?

LoungeMachine
09-14-2007, 10:55 AM
Umm, ELL hun....

The votes are in. The pols have spoken.

waiting....


still waiting......

:cool:

Ellyllions
09-14-2007, 11:02 AM
Yeah, I wanna have faith but the glaring facts are rapidly extinguishing that.

scamper
09-14-2007, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Umm, ELL hun....

The votes are in. The pols have spoken.

waiting....


still waiting......

:cool:


try it again LM

Guitar Shark
09-14-2007, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Ellyllions
Yeah, I wanna have faith but the glaring facts are rapidly extinguishing that.

What Lounge was saying, my dear, is that the voting results are in, and the Front Line readers have spoken. Show us your tits. :)

Ellyllions
09-14-2007, 11:31 AM
Nope.
They're all mine!

Lqskdiver
09-14-2007, 11:48 AM
**dupe**

Lqskdiver
09-14-2007, 11:52 AM
What Lounge was saying, my dear, is that the voting results are in, and the Front Line readers have spoken. Show us your tits.

Hang on, hang on!!!

I just voted, so now it's official and unanimous!

Motion seconded. Motion carried

:D

LoungeMachine
09-14-2007, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Ellyllions
Nope.
They're all mine!

Oh for God's sake, don't go getting all family values on us.

Be progresseive.

Show us you're not just another Bush apologist.

:cool:

Satan
09-14-2007, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine


If ELVIS is right, and there is a hell, I hope W gets his own little corner.

Corner??

The BCE has their own subdivision!! :D

Ellyllions
09-14-2007, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Oh for God's sake, don't go getting all family values on us.

Be progresseive.

Show us you're not just another Bush apologist.

:cool:

Family values?
Naw, I said that they're all MINE.

jhale667
09-14-2007, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Ellyllions
Family values?
Naw, I said that they're all MINE.

Well, share the wealth...:D

LoungeMachine
09-14-2007, 02:51 PM
When they were in her avatar, they were spectacular.

She's just shy.

It's cute.

:gulp:

Warham
09-14-2007, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
When they were in her avatar, they were spectacular.

She's just shy.

It's cute.

:gulp:

Lovely! :D

Warham
09-14-2007, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Ellyllions
A true sign of intelligence is when a person will change their mind.


Hmmmmm, maybe there is hope for me after all.

LoungeMachine
09-14-2007, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by WAR
Hmmmmm, maybe there is hope for me after all.

Makes want to cry I'm so happy.

:D