Pilot Who Dropped Hiroshma Bomb Dies

[LoungeMachine]

U.S. pilot who dropped Hiroshima bomb dies:

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the U.S. bomber that dropped the first atomic bomb on Japan on August 6, 1945, died on Thursday at age 92, a newspaper reported.

Tibbets, who died at his home in Columbus, Ohio, had suffered strokes and was ill from heart failure, the Columbus Dispatch said in its online edition.

An experienced pilot who had flown some of the first bombing missions over Germany during World War Two, Tibbets was a 30-year-old colonel commanding the Enola Gay, a B-29 Superfortress bomber named for his mother.

After a six-hour flight to Japan, Tibbets' crew dropped the bomb, code-named "Little Boy," over Hiroshima at 8:15 a.m.

"If Dante had been with us on the plane, he would have been terrified," Tibbets said later. "The city we had seen so clearly in the sunlight a few minutes before was now an ugly smudge. It had completely disappeared under this awful blanket of smoke and fire."

The bomb instantly killed about 78,000 people. By the end of 1945, the number of dead had reached about 140,000 out of an estimated population of 350,000.

Three days later the United States dropped an atomic bomb nicknamed "Fat Man" on Nagasaki. Japan surrendered on August 15, 1945, bringing World War Two to an end.

Tibbets said in interviews he did not regret the decision to drop the bomb.

He became a brigadier general before leaving the military in 1966. Later he was president of Executive Jet Aviation, a Columbus-based international air-taxi service, the newspaper said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0143239820071101

[LoungeMachine]

Heard he didnt want a funeral or grave marker...

Feared his critics would use it.

[Figs]

good night funny man, good night.......

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Figs
good night funny man, good night.......

:confused:

[Nitro Express]

The crew that dropped this bomb probably filled their pants with shit when the shockwave hit the plane.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FfoQsZa8F1c"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FfoQsZa8F1c" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[LoungeMachine]

Seriously, I can't be the only one....

Can you NOT put yourself in this guy's shoes for a moment?

Did he not go to bed EVERY night thinking about the 140,000 civilians he evaporated with his trigger finger?

Did he then fall asleep comforted in the fact we may have lost 3X as many of our Guys invading japan?

I just can't imagine what it was like in this guy's head for the last 60 years...

Unbelievable

[Blackflag]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Seriously, I can't be the only one....

Can you NOT put yourself in this guy's shoes for a moment?

Did he not go to bed EVERY night thinking about the 140,000 civilians he evaporated with his trigger finger?

Did he then fall asleep comforted in the fact we may have lost 3X as many of our Guys invading japan?

I just can't imagine what it was like in this guy's head for the last 60 years...

Unbelievable

I know a guy that worked in a silo...and they specifically picked him and others like him because that part of his brain just isn't working. When you ask him questions like that, it's like he's just fucking clueless.

It's possible this guy just thought nothing every night...who knows.

[Nickdfresh]

Any bomber pilots are trained to detach themselves from that human instinct...

The B-29 crews that firebombed Tokyo, causing a rare, but massively destructive "firestorm" effect actually killed more people than the A-bombs did. And they were told that they were, and I quote, "baby-killers" by there own commanders...

It's much easier to drop bombs and not see your victims, in which case I think one can block most of the horrors out...

The moral trade-off is that more Japanese, and American servicemen, would have died in an invasion of Japan codenamed "Operation Downfall" than did by the bombs. The casualty projections were upwards of over 1,000,000 men...And that's just the Amercians...

[Blackflag]

That Eddie/Hannibal video is fucking hilarious.

[thome]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Seriously, I can't be the only one....

Can you NOT put yourself in this guy's shoes for a moment?

Did he not go to bed EVERY night thinking about the 140,000 civilians he evaporated with his trigger finger?

Did he then fall asleep comforted in the fact we may have lost 3X as many of our Guys invading japan?

I just can't imagine what it was like in this guy's head for the last 60 years...

Unbelievable

Were you there, Charlie?

Have you spoke with anyone who was.I have.

You post speaks not of concern but of a God-Like condemnation.

BAKUFU

Before you get started there are no civilians in a Imperialistic Society.

[thome]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Any bomber pilots are trained to detach themselves from that human instinct...

The B-29 crews that firebombed Tokyo, causing a rare, but massively destructive "firestorm" effect actually killed more people than the A-bombs did. And they were told that they were, and I quote, "baby-killers" by there own commanders...

It's much easier to drop bombs and not see your victims, in which case I think one can block most of the horrors out...

The moral trade-off is that more Japanese, and American servicemen, would have died in an invasion of Japan codenamed "Operation Downfall" than did by the bombs. The casualty projections were upwards of over 1,000,000 men...And that's just the Amercians...

MORAL TRADE................. OFFF OHH SH!TT!!!!

Were You there too?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by thome
MORAL TRADE................. OFFF OHH SH!TT!!!!

Were You there too?

No Thome, I just do that book readin' about stuff...

[thome]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
No Thome, I just do that book readin' about stuff...

Oh..... ok, that makes it all better.

Maybe the books will block a bullet headed towards you ,on the field of woe.

Perhaps you could read one to him about what he was thinking.

[matt19]

Originally posted by thome
Were you there, Charlie?

Have you spoke with anyone who was.I have.

You post speaks not of concern but of a God-Like condemnation.

BAKUFU

Before you get started there are no civilians in a Imperialistic Society.

:rolleyes:

Are you serious? That is a perfectly logical question, you are just to fucking stupid to read a comprehensive thought.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by thome
Oh..... ok, that makes it all better.

Maybe the books will block a bullet headed towards you ,on the field of woe.

Perhaps you could read one to him about what he was thinking.

Maybe you can get one with lots of pictures? or better yet, a pop-up one?

[thome]

Originally posted by matt19
:rolleyes:

Are you serious? That is a perfectly logical question, you are just to fucking stupid to read a comprehensive thought.

I really can't think of a thing to say.

"That is a perfectly logical question........

are you just to fu____ stupid."..hmmmmm....


Question for you.... Have we met?

Are you a loyal terrier for the poster I quoted.?

Do you just think you can roll up on me and use this style of language?

You may post like the people I have been speaking with, but
you may want to back off the tone a bit.

Do I at this point need to swing back with some ur momma slams?

You have a tinyer peepee that a bug fukker.?...am I cool?
Is that a good one?


Are you a pinbugdik needle fukker?

Do I giggle now?

How about a post of your own about the thread instead of backing up another poster with dirty words .

and..................

[thome]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Maybe you can get one with lots of pictures? or better yet, a pop-up one?

I don't need to read about a subject that has no way of being resolved you just punish yourself trying to understand these thing..go ahead. have at it.

Read away.

Here have a hand-up. The debate is over what's done is done and you cannot understand any of it, your OP's are wrong you weren't there.

The man is dead you have no ability to ask him all else is BS.

Dec 7th 1941

Payback is a bitch .

That was where I closed on this question over 30 years ago.

Have at it.

[matt19]

Originally posted by thome
I really can't think of a thing to say.

"That is a perfectly logical question........

are you just to fu____ stupid."..hmmmmm....


Question for you.... Have we met?

Are you a loyal terrier for the poster I quoted.?

Do you just think you can roll up on me and use this style of language?

You may post like the people I have been speaking with, but
you may want to back off the tone a bit.

Do I at this point need to swing back with some ur momma slams?

You have a tinyer peepee that a bug fukker.?...am I cool?
Is that a good one?


Are you a pinbugdik needle fukker?

Do I giggle now?

How about a post of your own about the thread instead of backing up another poster with dirty words .

and..................

You have to be kidding me. If you dont think that he would have wondered, perhaps even dozens of times during the rest of his life, about the masses of people that were killed because of the weapon that was dropped from his plane you have no empathy, and no fucking comprehension of rational thought.

And I can use whatever words I fucking want, be them too big for you to comprehend, or "dirty" enough to offened you.

Do me a favor and walk off a cliff.

[thome]

Originally posted by matt19
You have to be kidding me. If you dont think that he would have wondered, perhaps even dozens of times during the rest of his life, about the masses of people that were killed because of the weapon that was dropped from his plane you have no empathy, and no fucking comprehension of rational thought.

And I can use whatever words I fucking want, be them too big for you to comprehend, or "dirty" enough to offened you.

Do me a favor and walk off a cliff.

DANG ,YOU GOT ME!!!!

Go follow your new leaders some more, i'm down with it.

You can even wonder if you want ........that he may have thought of it never .

You can stay up all night wondering if he wondered 3.5 times or 63 thousand.


You could write a book about it I know a guy who reads alot.

[Blackflag]

Originally posted by thome
I don't need to read

[Nitro Express]

Originally posted by Blackflag
I know a guy that worked in a silo...and they specifically picked him and others like him because that part of his brain just isn't working. When you ask him questions like that, it's like he's just fucking clueless.

It's possible this guy just thought nothing every night...who knows.

The military dicipline type. They follow their orders and tune out the emotions because they break down the machine.

I don't care if you kill one or 140,000 people. As soon as you start thinking too much about who you killed and how that effected who was left behind or at home, it's psycological fuckland.

The key to killing is not to think too much about it. We are the green team and they are the red team. They lost. Now go to bed. :D

[ace diamond]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
U.S. pilot who dropped Hiroshima bomb dies:

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the U.S. bomber that dropped the first atomic bomb on Japan on August 6, 1945, died on Thursday at age 92, a newspaper reported.

Tibbets, who died at his home in Columbus, Ohio, had suffered strokes and was ill from heart failure, the Columbus Dispatch said in its online edition.

An experienced pilot who had flown some of the first bombing missions over Germany during World War Two, Tibbets was a 30-year-old colonel commanding the Enola Gay, a B-29 Superfortress bomber named for his mother.

After a six-hour flight to Japan, Tibbets' crew dropped the bomb, code-named "Little Boy," over Hiroshima at 8:15 a.m.

"If Dante had been with us on the plane, he would have been terrified," Tibbets said later. "The city we had seen so clearly in the sunlight a few minutes before was now an ugly smudge. It had completely disappeared under this awful blanket of smoke and fire."

The bomb instantly killed about 78,000 people. By the end of 1945, the number of dead had reached about 140,000 out of an estimated population of 350,000.

Three days later the United States dropped an atomic bomb nicknamed "Fat Man" on Nagasaki. Japan surrendered on August 15, 1945, bringing World War Two to an end.

Tibbets said in interviews he did not regret the decision to drop the bomb.

He became a brigadier general before leaving the military in 1966. Later he was president of Executive Jet Aviation, a Columbus-based international air-taxi service, the newspaper said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0143239820071101

hey, like it or not,the gentleman who piloted the "enola gay" in 1945 deserves every americans' respect. my grandfather was drafted into the navy and served during WWII. he was a radio operator on board the USS Missouri after it was raised,retro-fitted, re-commisioned and put back into service in late 1943 or early 1944 as part of the pacific fleet. this is what my grandfather told me before he died from cancer in 1989.
Robert Taft Hughes, Sr.
if I am wrong, i apologize. I am going on the info i was given when i was 10 years old in 1987, 20 years ago. the last time i saw my grandfather was when i was 10 in late 1987. my grandfather did not really discuss what went on during the war-ever. but i visited him before he passed and i pleaded with him. "Gramps,(my father's father,this is what everyone called him.his wife, and my only living grand-parent is granny,Sally Anne Hughes). my mother's parents were grandma and grandpa(Lee and Shirley) Ingalls. they are dead.
Anywho, I said to gramps in 1987, the last time time I saw him, I was about 10, "Gramps, I know and understand why you do not talk about WWII and your service. I want to know, so I may share with future generations of our family, what you did and what you know about those times because the history books are not entirely accurate. I want to be able to tell the truth to my children and my siblings children as well as future generations that will come around long after you, so that they may know your words and opinions, seeing as how you were there-as well as history books of the time."

"I want to be able to tell them 1st hand things the history books and gov't propaganda fails to mention."

now, seeing as how i lost gramps on june 27th,1989, only a few days before my own 12th birthday, his insights are now of very of great worth to me.anywho, i said to gramps,
"please tell me about your service to this great nation during WWII. I wish to know and under stand your reluctance to discuss it."

fortunately, when i explained to him why i was asking, he understood my reasoning.

In short, my grandfather was the radio operator on the USS Missouri
during WWII.
He says the guy monitoring the radar for enemy aircraft got a bit too close to the radar sceen and got cooked inside out from the microwaves.......the guy was burnt to a crisp. all that was left of him to bury were ashes.
this really made a severe imprint on gramps. when he told me this, I finally understood him a great deal better. unfortunately, we never spoke again after that.

i was not told of his death and funeral until 2 months after the fact.

i still hold it against my father to this day, it is a sore point between us. i am still angry with him for not telling me, but also i still have never seen my grandfather's gravesite. i refuse to go until my father apologizes for not telling me, and for allowing me to attend the funeral and to say my final goodbye to my grandfather.
i have a good relationship with my father, but he knows i am still
really pissed off at him for this.
after 18 years, i still have not forgiven my father, and he has yet to apologize.

[ace diamond]

lounge,i know we do not always agree and we do not always see eye to eye on political matters.

there is no bollocks in what i am saying in this thread.

if i am wrong,or if my grandfather was incorrect in what he told me, please provide me with correct info.
after all, this was 20 years ago, and i was 10 at the time.
I miss my dear Gramps dearly.

[BALLYJUNKIE]

VERY TOUCHING STORY ACE . AMAZING A 10 YEAR OLD KID COULD SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO GET FACTS ABOUT SUCH IMPORTANT EVENTS !!!!......... THE THING THAT BOTHERS ME THE MOST ABOUT THE A-BOMB IS ,YES JAPAN DID BOMB PEARL HARBOR ,BUT AT LEAST THEY BOMBED A NAVAL BASE(PEARL HARBOUR)IN WICH THE ENEMY (USA)COULD FIGHT BACK WITH ,WHEN THEY AMERICANS DROPPED THE A-BOMB THEY KILLED THOUSANS OF INNOCENT MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN THAT WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE WAR .....I GUESS PEOPLE CAN RATIONALIZE ANYTHING IN THIER MIND TO THINK NO MATTER HOW BAD SOMETHING THEY DID, IS ITS OK ,LETS HOPE NOTHING THAT BAD HAPPENS AGAIN

[ace diamond]

Originally posted by BALLYJUNKIE
VERY TOUCHING STORY ACE . AMAZING A 10 YEAR OLD KID COULD SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO GET FACTS ABOUT SUCH IMPORTANT EVENTS !!!!......... THE THING THAT BOTHERS ME THE MOST ABOUT THE A-BOMB IS ,YES JAPAN DID BOMB PEARL HARBOR ,BUT AT LEAST THEY BOMBED A NAVAL BASE(PEARL HARBOUR)IN WICH THE ENEMY (USA)COULD FIGHT BACK WITH ,WHEN THEY AMERICANS DROPPED THE A-BOMB THEY KILLED THOUSANS OF INNOCENT MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN THAT WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE WAR .....I GUESS PEOPLE CAN RATIONALIZE ANYTHING IN THIER MIND TO THINK NO MATTER HOW BAD SOMETHING THEY DID, IS ITS OK ,LETS HOPE NOTHING THAT BAD HAPPENS AGAIN

bally, when emeror hirohito signed the surrender, the ENOLA GAY was in the air over TOKYO,JAPAN with a-bomb #3 awaiting orders to deploy.

the united states told the emperor if he refused to agree to the terms of surrender that the united states put forth in 1945, tokyo would would be eliminated from the face of the earth and that japan would cease to exist.

they were not joking.

i agree it was a very sad day indeed,but it was a necessary evil.

without the A-bomb, we would not have won the "GREAT WAR".

[naturochem]

Originally posted by BALLYJUNKIE
VERY TOUCHING STORY ACE . AMAZING A 10 YEAR OLD KID COULD SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO GET FACTS ABOUT SUCH IMPORTANT EVENTS !!!!......... THE THING THAT BOTHERS ME THE MOST ABOUT THE A-BOMB IS ,YES JAPAN DID BOMB PEARL HARBOR ,BUT AT LEAST THEY BOMBED A NAVAL BASE(PEARL HARBOUR)IN WICH THE ENEMY (USA)COULD FIGHT BACK WITH ,WHEN THEY AMERICANS DROPPED THE A-BOMB THEY KILLED THOUSANS OF INNOCENT MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN THAT WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE WAR .....I GUESS PEOPLE CAN RATIONALIZE ANYTHING IN THIER MIND TO THINK NO MATTER HOW BAD SOMETHING THEY DID, IS ITS OK ,LETS HOPE NOTHING THAT BAD HAPPENS AGAIN
Were you home schooled?

[ace diamond]

Originally posted by naturochem
Were you home schooled?
no

[ace diamond]

reformatory

[ace diamond]

i made all the "bad kids" look like a bunch of amatuer babies

[naturochem]

Originally posted by naturochem
Were you home schooled?


Originally posted by ace diamond
reformatory
I was actually addressing the queen of the cap lock...Ballytwat

[ace diamond]

oops!
i fucked up
:D

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by naturochem
I was actually addressing the queen of the cap lock...Ballytwat

He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I don't know how many times I've posted this:

http://grownupgeek.com/capslock.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by thome
I don't need to read about a subject that has no way of being resolved you just punish yourself trying to understand these thing..go ahead. have at it.

Read away.

Here have a hand-up. The debate is over what's done is done and you cannot understand any of it, your OP's are wrong you weren't there.

The man is dead you have no ability to ask him all else is BS.

Dec 7th 1941

Payback is a bitch .

That was where I closed on this question over 30 years ago.

Have at it.

Thome, you barely literate mouth-breather...

The bomb wasn't dropped, or the bombs weren't dropped, in retaliation for Pearl Harbor, as the killing of 3000 mostly military personnel is no justification for the instant killing of 78,000 (mostly) civilians, as that would just be sick. The bomb was dropped to prevent this:

Operation Downfall (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4209)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Blackflag

It's possible this guy just thought nothing every night...who knows.

Possible, but I doubt it....

1945 these guys weren't trained for missle silos and Nukes.

This was just another pilot on a mission.

And I bet he wrestled with this.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Thome, you barely literate mouth-breather...



Have you noticed he's become EXACTLY what he accuses others of now?

He slips in and out of his shtick faster than the blind sheik, and now just trolls for mod fights/attention.

sad, really.

[LoungeMachine]

Enlist then, Modboi

[LoungeMachine]

He was a pilot.

He followed an order.

He was no more / less a Hero than the other millions who served.

Certainly not more than those who died.

We owe them all.

We also owe it to their memory not to become what they were fighting against.

Imperialist agressors who started wars and occupations in the name of the Homeland.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ace diamond
bally, when emeror hirohito signed the surrender, the ENOLA GAY was in the air over TOKYO,JAPAN with a-bomb #3 awaiting orders to deploy.

the united states told the emperor if he refused to agree to the terms of surrender that the united states put forth in 1945, tokyo would would be eliminated from the face of the earth and that japan would cease to exist.

they were not joking.

i agree it was a very sad day indeed,but it was a necessary evil.

without the A-bomb, we would not have won the "GREAT WAR".


The Great War was WWI.

[Seshmeister]

It's understandable that a lot of you take on board the the recieved wisdom/propoganda about the bombs to be to save a million US troops in an invasion of the Mainland.

I used to think that too but it doesn't really stand up.

http://www.doug-long.com/letter.htm




ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT
THE HISTORIANS' LETTER TO THE SMITHSONIAN


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. I. Michael Heyman
Secretary
The Smithsonian Institution
Washington, D.C. 20560
July 31, 1995

Dear Secretary Heyman:

Testifying before a House subcommittee on March 10, 1995, you promised that when you finally unveiled the Enola Gay exhibit, "I am just going to report the facts."[1]

Unfortunately, the Enola Gay exhibit contains a text which goes far beyond the facts. The critical label at the heart of the exhibit makes the following assertions:

* The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki "destroyed much of the two cities and caused many tens of thousands of deaths." This substantially understates the widely accepted figure that at least 200,000 men, women and children were killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. (Official Japanese records calculate a figure of more than 200,000 deaths--the vast majority of victims being women, children and elderly men.)[2]

* "However," claims the Smithsonian, "the use of the bombs led to the immediate surrender of Japan and made unnecessary the planned invasion of the Japanese home islands." Presented as fact, this sentence is actually a highly contentious interpretation. For example, an April 30, 1946 study by the War Department's Military Intelligence Division concluded, "The war would almost certainly have terminated when Russia entered the war against Japan."[3] (The Soviet entry into the war on August 8th is not even mentioned in the exhibit as a major factor in the Japanese surrender.) And it is also a fact that even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed, the Japanese still insisted that Emperor Hirohito be allowed to remain emperor as a condition of surrender. Only when that assurance was given did the Japanese agree to surrender. This was precisely the clarification of surrender terms that many of Truman's own top advisors had urged on him in the months prior to Hiroshima. This, too, is a widely known fact.[4]

* The Smithsonian's label also takes the highly partisan view that, "It was thought highly unlikely that Japan, while in a very weakened military condition, would have surrendered unconditionally without such an invasion." Nowhere in the exhibit is this interpretation balanced by other views. Visitors to the exhibit will not learn that many U.S. leaders--including Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower[5], Admiral William D. Leahy[6], War Secretary Henry L. Stimson[7], Acting Secretary of State Joseph C. Grew[8] and Assistant Secretary of War John J. McCloy[9]--thought it highly probable that the Japanese would surrender well before the earliest possible invasion, scheduled for November 1945. It is spurious to assert as fact that obliterating Hiroshima in August was needed to obviate an invasion in November. This is interpretation--the very thing you said would be banned from the exhibit.

* In yet another label, the Smithsonian asserts as fact that "Special leaflets were then dropped on Japanese cities three days before a bombing raid to warn civilians to evacuate." The very next sentence refers to the bombing of Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, implying that the civilian inhabitants of Hiroshima were given a warning. In fact, no evidence has ever been uncovered that leaflets warning of atomic attack were dropped on Hiroshima. Indeed, the decision of the Interim Committee was "that we could not give the Japanese any warning."[10]

* In a 16 minute video film in which the crew of the Enola Gay are allowed to speak at length about why they believe the atomic bombings were justified, pilot Col. Paul Tibbits asserts that Hiroshima was "definitely a military objective." Nowhere in the exhibit is this false assertion balanced by contrary information. Hiroshima was chosen as a target precisely because it had been very low on the previous spring's campaign of conventional bombing, and therefore was a pristine target on which to measure the destructive powers of the atomic bomb.[11] Defining Hiroshima as a "military" target is analogous to calling San Francisco a "military" target because it has a port and contains the Presidio. James Conant, a member of the Interim Committee that advised President Truman, defined the target for the bomb as a "vital war plant employing a large number of workers and closely surrounded by workers' houses."[12] There were indeed military factories in Hiroshima, but they lay on the outskirts of the city. Nevertheless, the Enola Gay bombardier's instructions were to target the bomb on the center of this civilian city.

The few words in the exhibit that attempt to provide some historical context for viewing the Enola Gay amount to a highly unbalanced and one-sided presentation of a largely discredited post-war justification of the atomic bombings.

Such errors of fact and such tendentious interpretation in the exhibit are no doubt partly the result of your decision earlier this year to take this exhibit out of the hands of professional curators and your own board of historical advisors. Accepting your stated concerns for accuracy, we trust that you will therefore adjust the exhibit, either to eliminate the highly contentious interpretations, or at the very least, balance them with other interpretations that can be easily drawn from the attached footnotes.

Sincerely,

Kai Bird and Martin Sherwin
Co-chairs of the Historians' Committee for Open Debate on Hiroshima

(see the attached sheet for additional signatories)


References

1. "Enola Gay Exhibit to 'Report the Facts,'" Washington Times, March 11, 1995.

2. Hiroshima and Nagasaki: The Physical, Medical, and Social Effects of the Atomic Bombings, (New York: Basic Books, 1981), p. 364.

3. "Memorandum for Chief, Strategic Policy Section, S&P Group, OPD, Subject: Use of the Atomic Bomb on Japan," April 30, 1946, ABC 471.6 Atom (17 August 1945) Sec 7, Entry 421, Record Group 165, National Archives.

4. Joseph C. Grew, Turbulent Era: A Diplomatic Record of Forty Years 1904-1945, Vol. II (Boston, MA: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1952), pp. 1406-1442; U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, Japan's Struggle to End the War (Washington, July 1946); Gar Alperovitz, "Hiroshima: Historians Reassess," Foreign Policy, Summer 1995, pp. 15-34; and, Martin Sherwin, A World Destroyed: Hiroshima and the Origins of the Arms Race, rev. ed. (New York, Random House, 1987), p. 225.

5. See "Notes on talk with President Eisenhower," April 6, 1960, War Department Notes envelope, Box 66, Herbert Feis Papers, Library of Congress Manuscript Division; and, Gen. Andrew Goodpaster, "Memorandum of Conference with the President, April 6, 1960," April 11, 1960, "Staff Notes--April 1960," Folder 2, DDE Diary Series, Box 49, Dwight D. Eisenhower Presidential Library; and also, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Mandate for Change, 1953-1956 (Garden City, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc.), pp. 312-313.

6. William D. Leahy, I Was There: The Personal Story of the Chief of Staff to Presidents Roosevelt and Truman, Based on His Notes and Diaries Made at the Time, (New York: McGraw-Hill Book Company, Inc., 1950), p. 441. See also his private diary (in particular the June 18, 1945 entry) available at the Library of Congress Manuscript Division.

7. Henry L. Stimson and McGeorge Bundy, On Active Service in Peace and War (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1947, 1948), pp. 628-629.

8. Joseph C. Grew, Turbulent Era, pp. 1406-1442; Martin Sherwin, A World Destroyed, p. 225.

9. See John J. McCloy interview with Fred Freed for NBC White Paper, "The Decision to Drop the Bomb," (interview conducted sometime between May 1964 and February 1965), Roll 1, p. 11, File 50A, Box SP2, McCloy Papers, Amherst College Archives.

10. Martin J. Sherwin, A World Destroyed, see Appendix L, "Notes of the Interim Committee Meeting, May 31, 1945," p. 302.

11. The papers of Gen. Leslie R. Groves, head of the Manhattan Project, are filled with his statements to the effect that he wanted a virgin target large enough so that the effects of the bomb would not dissipate by the time they reached the edge of the city. See for example the letter from Groves to John A. Shane, 12/27/60 on target selection, in the Groves Papers, Record Group 200, National Archives. See also, Martin Sherwin, A World Destroyed, pp. 229-230.

12. Martin J. Sherwin, A World Destroyed, see Appendix L, "Notes of the Interim Committee Meeting, May 31, 1945," p. 302.


List of Signatories

Kai Bird, co-chair of the Historians' Committee for Open Debate on Hiroshima

Martin Sherwin, co-chair of the Historians' Committee for Open Debate on Hiroshima

Walter LaFeber, Professor of History, Cornell University

Stanley Hoffman, Dillon Professor, Harvard University

Mark Selden, Chair, Department of Sociology, State University of New York at Binghamton

Jon Wiener, Professor of History, University of California, Irvine

William O. Walker III, Ohio Wesleyan University

Dr. E.B. Halpern, Lecturer in American History, University College London

John Morris, Professor, Miyagi Gakuin Women's Junior College, Sendai, Japan

Gar Alperovitz, historian and author of The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb

Stanley Goldberg, historian of science and biographer of Gen. Leslie Groves

James Hershberg, historian and author of James B. Conant: Harvard to Hiroshima and the Making of the Nuclear Age

Greg Mitchell, author of Hiroshima in America

Gaddis Smith, Professor of History, Yale University

Barton J. Bernstein, Professor of History, Stanford University

Michael J. Hogan, Professor of History, Ohio State University

Melvyn P. Leffler, Professor of History, University of Virginia

John W. Dower, Professor of History, MIT

Priscilla Johnson McMillan, Author and Fellow of the Russian Research Center, Harvard University

Bob Carter, Senior Lecturer in Sociology, Worcester College of Higher Education, England.

Douglas Haynes, Associate Professor of History, Dartmouth College

Bruce Nelson, Department of History, Dartmouth College

Walter J. Kendall, III, The John Marshall School of Law, Chicago

Patricia Morton, Assistant Professor, University of California, Riverside

Michael Kazin, Professor of History, American University

Gerald Figal, Asst. Professor of History, Lewis & Clark College, Portland, Oregon

R. David Arkush, Professor of History, University of Iowa, Iowa City

Barbara Brooks, Professor of Japanese and Chinese History, City College of New York

Dell Upton, Professor, University of California, Berkeley

Eric Schneider, Assistant Dean, College of Arts and Sciences, University of Pennsylvania

Janet Golden, Assistant Professor of History, Rutgers, Camden

Bob Buzzanco, Assistant Professor of History, University of Houston

Lawrence Badash, Professor of History of Science, University of California, Santa Barbara

Kanno Humio, Asociate Professor of Iwate University, Japan

Robert Entenmann, Associate Professor of History, St. Olaf College, Northfield, MN

Mark Lincicome, Assistant Professor, Department of History, College of the Holy Cross, Worcester, MA

Kristina Kade Troost, Duke University, Durham NC

Peter Zarrow, Assistant Professor of History, Vanderbilt University

Michael Kucher, University of Delaware

Lawrence Rogers, University of Hawaii at Hilo

Alan Baumler, Piedmont College

Timothy S. George, Harvard University

Ronald Dale Karr, University of Massachusetts, Lowell

Kikuchi Isao, Professor of Japanese History, Miyagi Gakuin Women's College, Sendai, Japan

Ohira Satoshi, Associate Professor of Japanese History, Miyagi Gakuin Women's College, Sendai, Japan

Inoue Ken'Ichiro Associate Professor of Japanese Art History, Miyagi Gakuin Women's College, Sendai, Japan

Yanagiya Keiko, Associate Professor of Japanese Literature, Siewa Women's College, Sendai, Japan

Sanho Tree, Research Director, Historians' Committee for Open Debate on Hiroshima

Eric Alterman, Stanford University

Jeff R. Schutts, Georgetown University

Gary Michael Tartakov, Iowa State University

W. Donald Smith, University of Washington, currently at Hitotsubashi University in Tokyo

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
He was a pilot.

He followed an order.

He was no more / less a Hero than the other millions who served.

Certainly not more than those who died.

We owe them all.

We also owe it to their memory not to become what they were fighting against.

Imperialist agressors who started wars and occupations in the name of the Homeland.

Exactly. He was a pilot possibly rated above average as far as pilots go. He did a job, and I doubt he'd claim to be anybody's hero. He simply resented being seen as some peoples' politicized, revisionist history, villain...

Especially of the Japanese who have assumed victim status regarding these bombings as often as possible to the point of near pseudo-martyrdom -yet- continually deny their own atrocities in China, The Philippines, Burma, etc...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
It's understandable that a lot of you take on board the the recieved wisdom/propoganda about the bombs to be to save a million US troops in an invasion of the Mainland.

I used to think that too but it doesn't really stand up.

http://www.doug-long.com/letter.htm

Actually, you're wrong. It's the revisionist history that doesn't stand up, Sesh...

While he might make some points, that article has been severally discredited...


* The Smithsonian's label also takes the highly partisan view that, "It was thought highly unlikely that Japan, while in a very weakened military condition, would have surrendered unconditionally without such an invasion." Nowhere in the exhibit is this interpretation balanced by other views.


Yeah, that would explain the attempted Imperial Japanese Army officer coup d'état to overthrow the Emperor EVEN AFTER the bombs had been dropped - in order to continue the War...

And as far as the Soviets entering the War, true they eviscerated the Japanese Army occupying Mongolia and Manchuria. But the USSR had little amphibious warfare capability making their contributions to a home island invasion very limited, if it were wanted at all...

[FORD]

I'm still waiting for the Republicans to demand that the history books change the name of the plane to the "Enola Straight".

[FORD]

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[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by FORD
I'm still waiting for the Republicans to demand that the history books change the name of the plane to the "Enola Straight".

It's okay as long as it stays in the closet and doesn't try to marry another B-29...

[FORD]

Must be one Hell of a big closet.

[Seshmeister]

He must have really hated his mother.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
[B]Actually, you're wrong. It's the revisionist history that doesn't stand up, Sesh...



Nothing wrong with revising original propoganda.

http://www.doug-long.com/hiroshim.htm

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Nothing wrong with revising original propoganda.

http://www.doug-long.com/hiroshim.htm

What "propaganda?" That the Japanese were ready to surrender? I think they contacted the Russians as an intercessor for peace talks. But the Soviets promptly invaded China, so that was just pissing up a rope. The fact is that the Japanese were banking on a strategy of attrition in hopes of gaining a favorable angle in negotiations...

The fact remained that if an invasion took place, there were going to be massive casualties on both sides. The US war plans included provisions for wide scale chemical warfare to overcome Japanese defenses since a surprise that was pulled off in Normandy was not going to happen. There was only one place to land. Not to mention the kamikazes probably sinking troop ships with thousands dying at a crack, or the civilian population, ALL men, women, and children, were considered to be in a militia and were ordered to fight to the last. I'm not saying they all would have, but judging the numbers of Japanese civilians killing themselves on Okinawa after the US victory, it's not a stretch to say that many would have died...

I do not believe the highest of the casualty estimates because the Japanese Imperial Army would have eventually collapsed in open terrain warfare against US tanks and airpower. But a lot of US and UK personnel were going with them...

[Seshmeister]

Nick I totally respect your knowledge on the WWII stuff but my worry on the thing is

a) After the bombs nothing changed. The Japs stll refused to surrender until the US agreed to keeping the emperor which they then did.

b) Nagasaki. You have a country that is fucked up and in a mess and they only give them 3 days?

c) If you are arguing against the US flexing it's muscles for the future cold war and using Jap cities as a testing ground, don't you think it's a bit fucking suspicious they used a plutonium bomb in Nagasaki after the Uranium one in Hiroshima?

d) In modern definitions it's terrorism because it was killing innocent people on mass to cause a political outcome. You can cite the firebombing of Tokyo or Dresden but that at least didn't fuck up the survivors for the rest of their lives with radiation poisoning. It was the biggest single two acts of terrorism in human history and you can dress it up all you like but that is a fact. The reason that Hiroshima was such a good target was that as a non strategic military target it hadn't been bombed up to that point so was the perfect place for the new toy to be tested.

I'm not alone on this. I cited dozens of historians in my last post.

Hiroshima was just plain wrong. Nagasaki was even worse.

Different times though I guess which is a good thing.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Nick I totally respect your knowledge on the WWII stuff but my worry on the thing is

a) After the bombs nothing changed. The Japs stll refused to surrender until the US agreed to keeping the emperor which they then did.

There was no effective means of communications between the US and IJ at that time. The only intermediary finally joined the War in August, and effectively shut down whatever communications there were. I suspect the Japanese bare a greater blame than the US in this, because what sensible, realistic men were in the IJ gov't were effectively menaced into submission by a hyper-aggressive Imperial Army, willing to fight to the last Japanese. Another aspect that people also ignore is that the Emperor was also a cunt, that presided over some of the most heinous war crimes in modern times conducted by any nation-state calling itself civilized. He had no right to demand anything. Although, the Viceroy Gen. MacArthur was smart enough to let things be...


b) Nagasaki. You have a country that is fucked up and in a mess and they only give them 3 days?

Yes, but the shock effect was considered necessary. Again, I've said in the past that I do not agree with the targeting list, and that a military or naval target such as the Tokyo Naval Yard should have been at least one of the targets.


c) If you are arguing against the US flexing it's muscles for the future cold war and using Jap cities as a testing ground, don't you think it's a bit fucking suspicious they used a plutonium bomb in Nagasaki after the Uranium one in Hiroshima?

Well, they didn't have a lot of choice as far as bombs went. I think the US had only three total at the time. But one could also argue that the bombings made subsequent uses more unlikely because little was known regarding "fallout" and the long term peripheral effects...


d) In modern definitions it's terrorism because it was killing innocent people on mass to cause a political outcome. You can cite the firebombing of Tokyo or Dresden but that at least didn't fuck up the survivors for the rest of their lives with radiation poisoning. It was the biggest single two acts of terrorism in human history and you can dress it up all you like but that is a fact. The reason that Hiroshima was such a good target was that as a non strategic military target it hadn't been bombed up to that point so was the perfect place for the new toy to be tested.

Of course the cities were kept pristine, even the Japanese living there knew this. But the Japanese were all inducted into the militia (the exact name escapes me) and were considered to be warriors (very unfairly, as the IJA's bastardization of the Code of Bushido was completely pseudo and a a recent construction).

The question is, was it better to kill 150,000 Japanese via atomic bombings, or to have a possible humanitarian catastrophe that could amount to millions. Also, you're discounting the experience of the US in the Iwo Jima and Okinawa invasions, in which entire Japanese armies fought to the last man, and inflicted some of the highest casualty rates in proportion with numbers, in all WWII...Then thousands of Japanese civilians started committing suicide and throwing their babies over cliffs before they jumped after them, because the Japanese has so ingrained in the population that the Americans were barbarians intent on raping and eating them.

And on the radiation question, limited numbers of the Japanese victims were actually severally irradiated since the fallout was dispersed by the air burst, much like a "radiation bomb" and the Japanese gov't continues to harp on this, blaming every death in the two cities on the A-bombs, to this day. This while they continually orchestrate a campaign effectively decontextualizing history, and most egregiously of all, their own perverse actions of murdering six-million Chinese civilians by starvation, bullet, and Samurai sword (just for starters).

The deaths of the civilians was horrifying. But at the same time, the Japanese claim on martyrdom on this issue is just repugnant, and judging the US bombings while avoiding discussions on The Rape of Nanjing and the fact that the Japanese effectively started WWII (Not at Pearl Harbor, but in their invasion of China some 10 years earlier)...


I'm not alone on this. I cited dozens of historians in my last post.

You're not alone, but that doesn't make them right...


Hiroshima was just plain wrong. Nagasaki was even worse.

Different times though I guess which is a good thing.

Cheers!

:gulp:

True. And in my own speculations was that the one positive that came out of these bombings was the horrific demonstrations provided may have caused a stigma that prevented their use in the Cold War. Who knows? And I'm a Japophile. I love their culture, but please, their statements on this stuff is just silly without taking responsibility for their "advances in Asia" during WWII. Even the ex-Japanese Defense Minister was forced to resign when he dared say that he could sort of see why the US dropped the bomb. Because there were only effectively military options left before "talks" could come about, invasion (Operation Downfall with the two subcomponents Olympia and Cornet) or a blockade, in both cases the misery would have gone on into 1946 or 47.'

[Seshmeister]

I just don't think the two choices were drop two bombs or have a hellish invasion.

There were other options.

The Japanese government was horrendous but I don't think for example you would want your family to be held to account for Bush's actions.

I seem to remember the US only had 3 bombs at the time too but still there was no need for Nagasaki at least.

And I'm not a Japophile, I think they have a uniquely odd outlook even to this day.:)

e.g. Vendng machines with schoolgirls panties?

Jeez.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Nitro Express]

It's easy to sit on our high horses and judge the past. None of us were on the Bataan Death March or spent time in a Japanese prison camp hell.

The war ended. The US and Japan got on with life and both prospered in the end. Life goes on.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
Life goes on.

For some anyway....


It's been said: History is written by the Victors.

And rewritten by Bushco, but I digress......


I was just wondering what's gone through this guy's mind for 60 years.

Wish he'd written a book.

The moral implications from BOTH sides in that war [or all wars for that matter] fascinate me.

The differences in the way people think about war and killing are important to study.

And I've actually learned some things from both sesh and nick by reading this.

Which is reallly saying something considering I'm here for the grins and the giggles.

:gulp:

[Nitro Express]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
For some anyway....


It's been said: History is written by the Victors.

And rewritten by Bushco, but I digress......


I was just wondering what's gone through this guy's mind for 60 years.

Wish he'd written a book.

The moral implications from BOTH sides in that war [or all wars for that matter] fascinate me.

The differences in the way people think about war and killing are important to study.

And I've actually learned some things from both sesh and nick by reading this.

Which is reallly saying something considering I'm here for the grins and the giggles.

:gulp:

I think you or me could have dropped that bomb if we lived during those times. Nobody saw the end of the war and the Japanese military was absolutely brutal. Plus, the prejudice against anything not of white European desent was high. That Japanese were Japs and hardly human in the eyes of many.

It's all a sad story but on the other hand, General Marshall and General MacArther did an excellent post war job. The Japanese got on with life and in the end, the prejudices melted away and we have had a great relationship with Japan.

What frustrates me is I see tyranny in our own govt. and the sheepish American people do nothing about it. We are going to lose our country because the citizens have been pacified by easy credit and entertainment. If Bubba can put it on his credit card and get it, he doesn't care what Bush does.

Who will use the next nuclear device? Probably either the US or Israel. We live in an age where the president thinks he's a law unto himself and he wants war. Nuclear weapons dissapear and then show up on a bomber at another base. There's dissention in the upper tiers of the Air Force and one high end brass commits suicide. Stuff you used to read about post communist Russia but now it's going on here.

[scamper]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
The Rape of Nanjing

Made Hitler look like a pussy.

[Nitro Express]

We went from The Rape of Nanjing, the Batan Death March, Japanese Prison Camp Hell, Tokyo firebombing, Hiroshima and Nagazaki nuking to Japanese nerds pretending they are Jimi Hendrix.

I would say things got better :D

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