Rudy's Lie of the Week

[LoungeMachine]

Giuliani's Bogus Diagnosis
__

By Eugene Robinson
Friday, November 2, 2007; Page A21

Even Rudy Giuliani would acknowledge that he can be prickly. Now, it seems, the tough-talking former mayor is growing estranged from empirical fact.

I'm referring to his presidential campaign's recent radio ad in New Hampshire, in which Giuliani speaks of his personal experience with prostate cancer and then cites an ear-grabbing statistic: "My chances of surviving prostate cancer -- and thank God I was cured of it -- in the United States: 82 percent. My chances of surviving prostate cancer in England: only 44 percent under socialized medicine."


Hold it, you mean I'd be nearly twice as likely to die of prostate cancer in Liverpool as in Los Angeles? Twice as likely to succumb in Oxfordshire as in Ohio? Amazing. Also, not remotely true.

As several truth-squading journalists -- notably, The Post's Michael Dobbs-- have pointed out, mortality rates from prostate cancer in Britain and the United States are roughly the same: About 25 men out of 100,000 die of prostate cancer each year in both countries. (That's the standard way of reporting mortality rates, deaths per 100,000 individuals.) I'll get to the math a little later -- that's a promise, not a threat -- but first, I want to try to understand Giuliani's thought process. Giuliani wasn't spoon-fed those dodgy figures by some speechwriter. He plucked his data on prostate cancer from an article in City Journal, a publication of the conservative Manhattan Institute, which has been crusading against the idea of single-payer health-care systems such as the National Health Service in Britain.

Campaign aides point out that City Journal is respected and that the article was written by a physician, David Gratzer. That's true, but still: If you read that you were twice as likely to die of a given disease in Cambodia than in the United States, that would be roughly consistent with what you know about Cambodia and what you know about the United States. It would make sense that advanced, lifesaving treatment would be hard to obtain in an underdeveloped country with a fairly rudimentary health-care system.


Britain, however, is hardly Cambodia. Giuliani has been to London as recently as September (it was there that he announced his status as "probably one of the four or five best-known Americans in the world"). Did it not strike him as unlikely that such an advanced society would be so callous, incompetent or both in treating a fairly common, well-studied disease such as prostate cancer? Wouldn't he want to have that statistic checked out before citing it in his presidential campaign?

I see two possibilities. One is that he believed what he wanted to believe -- that this huge supposed disparity in cancer outcomes fits so neatly into his worldview that it just had to be right. Hmmm, isn't cherry-picked data -- about weapons of mass destruction, not cancer survival rates -- the reason we have nearly 160,000 troops bogged down in Iraq?

The other possibility is that Giuliani didn't really care whether the figures made any sense or not. He invokes the specter of "Hillarycare" -- shorthand for any health-care reform that Hillary Clinton might propose -- almost as often as he reminds audiences of Sept. 11. Here was another weapon to use against his nemesis.

Okay, the math: Gratzer writes that his figures come from seven-year-old data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development on the numbers of men in various countries who are diagnosed with prostate cancer and, of those diagnosed, how many die from the disease. The latest official figures show a much smaller gap: Of men diagnosed with prostate cancer, about 98 percent survive five years in the United States vs. about 74 percent in Britain.

But even that is misleading, because -- as even Gratzer acknowledges -- a much higher percentage of American men than Britons are diagnosed with prostate cancer in the first place. The reason Americans are more likely to be diagnosed is that we are screened and tested much more often than our British counterparts. Doctors here are much more likely to diagnose, say, a slow-growing tumor in an elderly patient who will die of something else before the prostate cancer progresses to a serious state.

That's why the more relevant comparison, experts say, is mortality rates -- which are about equal. For the record, I prefer our system of screening and testing; if I'm going to be hit by a freight train, I want to see it coming.

What I don't want is another president who refuses to let the facts get in the way of a good story.

eugenerobinson@washpost.com





LMMFAO And this is your FRONT RUNNER, Repukes????

Good luck with that.

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

I think the US does overall have better cancer survival rates though not to the level RG was saying but I don't think its about the treatments so much as the diagnosis time.

It's just dumb human nature.

If you are personally paying to get checked up every few years you go.

If you can phone up and ask to get checked for free you don't bother until you get symptoms which in a lot of cancers is too late.

Cheers

:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

This is just another in a long line of Rudy Lies...

I just thought at this point it might be easier to track them all in one thread...

We only have so much bandwidth.

:gulp:

Next up: NY Firefighters and their radios

[pismo10]

I guess we should all just cling to Hilary's socialized everything and taxes that will put us back in the 60s-70s nightmare.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by pismo10
I guess we should all just cling to Hilary's socialized everything and taxes that will put us back in the 60s-70s nightmare.

:rolleyes:

What a firm grasp on reality you have...




What's Limbaugh talking about today?


:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by pismo10
I guess we should all just cling to Hilary's socialized everything and taxes that will put us back in the 60s-70s nightmare.

Speaking of socialized everything...

How's those private contractors and private mercenaries working out for you?

Find that $1.2 Billion that went missing yet?

[Jim Shetterlini]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
:rolleyes:

What a firm grasp on reality you have...




What's Limbaugh talking about today?


:gulp:
He's not on for antother 35 to 40 minutes...Check your local AM radio stations for further details. You might gain some valuable information from the other side since you shared with us editorial by a far left political hack.

[FORD]

Originally posted by pismo10
I guess we should all just cling to Hilary's socialized everything and taxes that will put us back in the 60s-70s nightmare.

If the 60's and 70's were your idea of a "nightmare", then Heaven must be your idea of Hell, right?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
He's not on for antother 35 to 40 minutes...Check your local AM radio stations for further details. You might gain some valuable information from the other side since you shared with us editorial by a far left political hack.

Check your AM stations and listen to Thom Hartmann instead. You might learn something.

[Nickdfresh]

I wonder if he got the cancer from helping to clear rubble at ground level zero so much?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I wonder if he got the cancer from helping to clear rubble at ground level zero so much?

You shouldn't give Rudi any ideas. If he actually managed to manufacture this lie without mentioning 9-11 50 or 60 times, that's more of a miracle than his being cured of cancer was!

I'm still not Joe Biden's biggest fan, and probably never will be, but he nailed Rudy's ass (and not in the Republican sense) when he said "A noun, a verb, and 9-11" was all that ever spews out of Rudi's mouth.

[Jim Shetterlini]

Originally posted by FORD
Check your AM stations and listen to Thom Hartmann instead. You might learn something.

Hey I don't mind listening to the other side, that way I can know the enemy better. I don't think he is available here. Does he broadcast on the web? BTW why do you think I read about every article posted by the one and only Mr. Lounge? So I can get my daily dose of liberalism with some socialism thrown in as well. How is the great NW today?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by FORD
You shouldn't give Rudi any ideas. If he actually managed to manufacture this lie without mentioning 9-11 50 or 60 times, that's more of a miracle than his being cured of cancer was!
...

Come on Ford! Rudy had a wheel barrel and shovel in one hand, and the leash of a 'cadaverdog" in the other, as he gallantly cleaned the 9/11 rubble after that attack by the omnipotent terrorists on 911 which allowed his city to shine and he 911ed the 911 on 911...

[FORD]

Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
Hey I don't mind listening to the other side, that way I can know the enemy better. I don't think he is available here. Does he broadcast on the web? BTW why do you think I read about every article posted by the one and only Mr. Lounge? So I can get my daily dose of liberalism with some socialism thrown in as well. How is the great NW today?

You actually might get some "socialism" thrown in today, since Thom usually has Bernie Sanders on for the first hour on Fridays. But Hartmann himself is no socialist.

His program airs live right now (9-12 Pacific/12-3 Eastern) but it's syndicated all day long depending on local stations.

If you can't hear it in your area right now, you can stream it online from novamradio.com

And the NW is 32 degrees and foggy right now. I actually had to turn the heat on this morning.

[Jim Shetterlini]

Originally posted by FORD
You actually might get some "socialism" thrown in today, since Thom usually has Bernie Sanders on for the first hour on Fridays. But Hartmann himself is no socialist.

His program airs live right now (9-12 Pacific/12-3 Eastern) but it's syndicated all day long depending on local stations.

If you can't hear it in your area right now, you can stream it online from novamradio.com

And the NW is 32 degrees and foggy right now. I actually had to turn the heat on this morning.

I will check it out. Yeah cold here about 26 degrees last night but it's actually been warmer than normal. Damn global warming! Have a good one!

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by pismo10
I guess we should all just cling to Hilary's socialized everything and taxes that will put us back in the 60s-70s nightmare.

I'm certainly no fan of Shrillary, but....

Do any of you Cons in here seriously think for one moment Clinton wouldn't wipe the floor with Rudy in a national campaign???

:rolleyes:

So you just keep on backing Rudy :D

Pretty please.

And perhaps float the idea of Bernie Kerik as AG while you're at it. ;)

[FORD]

Rudy's foreign policy team is made up of the neocons who Cheney thought were too crazy to be in the BCE cabinet.

Lunatics like Norman Podhoretz and Daniel "Crack" Pipes.

[Jim Shetterlini]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I'm certainly no fan of Shrillary, but....

Do any of you Cons in here seriously think for one moment Clinton wouldn't wipe the floor with Rudy in a national campaign???

:rolleyes:

So you just keep on backing Rudy :D

Pretty please.

And perhaps float the idea of Bernie Kerik as AG while you're at it. ;)

Which Clinton are you talkin about? The one that fucked herself miserably in the debate the other night or the Clinton that is more scripted and packaged than any candidate in the history of presidential politics. Guiliani isn't my fav either but if she can look that bad in a democratic debate, hell Rudy will have a field day.

[jhale667]

Originally posted by FORD

I'm still not Joe Biden's biggest fan, and probably never will be, but he nailed Rudy's ass (and not in the Republican sense) when he said "A noun, a verb, and 9-11" was all that ever spews out of Rudi's mouth.

Yeah, that was some classic ownage there....:D

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
Guiliani isn't my fav either but if she can look that bad in a democratic debate, hell Rudy will have a field day.

:rolleyes:

You can't be serious...

Have you seen any of the Repuke debates???

Rudy is terrible.

Once his 9/11 "credentials" have all been exposed, he'll be finished...

And God forbid The far Right mounts a 3rd party candy....

Rudy is a One-Trick Pony who's about to be shredded by the Clinton Attack Machine.

I actually had you pegged as one of the brighter Cons in here, Jimbo.

But damn man, if you think Rudy can take HC mano-a-mano ...... you've been drinking the Kool-aid for too long.

Especially if the toxic coattails of King George are seen wrapping their arms around Rudy again.


Any self-respecting Republican better PRAY it's not a Clinton/Giuliani matchup.

Actually, Giuliani doesn't match up well against any of the big 3 Dems.

He might be able to beat Dodd or Biden. [ Ironically enough my 2 fave guys]

[Jim Shetterlini]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
:rolleyes:

You can't be serious...

Have you seen any of the Repuke debates???

Rudy is terrible.

Once his 9/11 "credentials" have all been exposed, he'll be finished...

And God forbid The far Right mounts a 3rd party candy....

Rudy is a One-Trick Pony who's about to be shredded by the Clinton Attack Machine.

I actually had you pegged as one of the brighter Cons in here, Jimbo.

But damn man, if you think Rudy can take HC mano-a-mano ...... you've been drinking the Kool-aid for too long.

Especially if the toxic coattails of King George are seen wrapping their arms around Rudy again.


Any self-respecting Republican better PRAY it's not a Clinton/Giuliani matchup.

Actually, Giuliani doesn't match up well against any of the big 3 Dems.

He might be able to beat Dodd or Biden. [ Ironically enough my 2 fave guys]

Easy easy Lounge, I was talking about the debacle of hers the other night, I said Rudy would do well if "that" Clinton shows for the debates. Actually, I think the good battle would be a made in Arkansas rumble because that other former gov does pretty damn good in a debate situation from what I have seen. But see I am not a repub, I am a conservative...as quoted by Ford," I didn't leave the party the party left me." No one at this point gets me really jazzed, but I wil tell you this do not agree at all with Biden's politics but man the dude's got moxy. I don't drink anyone's kool-aid unless it's spiked and there's some nice tits behind the hand that's given it to me.LOL

[Kennedy]

You can't be serious...

Have you seen any of the Repuke debates???

Rudy is terrible.

Once his 9/11 "credentials" have all been exposed, he'll be finished...

And God forbid The far Right mounts a 3rd party candy....

Rudy is a One-Trick Pony who's about to be shredded by the Clinton Attack Machine.

I actually had you pegged as one of the brighter Cons in here, Jimbo.

But damn man, if you think Rudy can take HC mano-a-mano ...... you've been drinking the Kool-aid for too long.

Especially if the toxic coattails of King George are seen wrapping their arms around Rudy again.


Any self-respecting Republican better PRAY it's not a Clinton/Giuliani matchup.

Actually, Giuliani doesn't match up well against any of the big 3 Dems.

He might be able to beat Dodd or Biden. [ Ironically enough my 2 fave guys]

[LoungeMachine]

:rolleyes:

Great...

I have a stalker clone.

What a life you must lead...

[LoungeMachine]

So Kennedy lives in Long Beach :rolleyes:

Nice neighborhood.

LMAO

[Jesus Christ]

So much drama in the LBC
Sometimes it's hard being the Son of G-O- double D......

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
Which Clinton are you talkin about? The one that fucked herself miserably in the debate the other night or the Clinton that is more scripted and packaged than any candidate in the history of presidential politics. Guiliani isn't my fav either but if she can look that bad in a democratic debate, hell Rudy will have a field day.

If the debates made any difference to how people in the US vote then Bush wouldn't be in the Whitehouse. Twice.

[jhale667]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
So much drama in the LBC
Sometimes it's hard being the Son of G-O- double D......

:lol:

[Jim Shetterlini]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
If the debates made any difference to how people in the US vote then Bush wouldn't be in the Whitehouse. Twice.

Why?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
If the debates made any difference to how people in the US vote then Bush wouldn't be in the Whitehouse. Twice.

Actually it's scarier than that....

Rudy could literally stand there and answer "9/11" over and over again and probably sweep 44 states.

No one has ever tanked as bad as George when it came to Nat'l debates [Nixon and Dukakis included]

And the dumbass was WIRED with a receiver the whole time too, with Rove feeding him answers like some sort of Nazi Cyrano

:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
Why?

Because he was terrible?

:gulp:

[Jim Shetterlini]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Because he was terrible?

:gulp:

I thought Gore with his heavy breathing and Kerry with his pompaus ass nature looked worse to the avg american. I am just saying that Bush came across as the more likeable guy, which to most people I think means alot. That is why I think anybody has a good chance against Billary once this becomes national and the majority of americans start paying attention. I can't be the only one on here that thinks Hillary reminds you of a bitch on wheels ex-wife. I have one of those already and their ain't no fuckin way I am going to look at another one for 4 years on TV every night. I just get chills thinking about it....I better have a shot !

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
I thought Gore with his heavy breathing and Kerry with his pompaus ass nature looked worse to the avg american....

Yeah, Americans hate it when you have an articulate guy, not murdering every other polysyllabic word, that actually sort of knows what the fuck he is talking about owning blubbering, marble-mouthed idiots we all can relate too...

[Jim Shetterlini]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Yeah, Americans hate it when you have an articulate guy, not murdering every other polysyllabic word, that actually sort of knows what the fuck he is talking about owning blubbering, marble-mouthed idiots we all can relate too...

Well I understood him quite well but I am well trained in cons. jibberish..You're not gonna get me going tonight Nick, friday night and the drinks are goin down well. Got a "reasonable" chance for a hookup later so I'm stayin in a great mood tonight. Have a great one dude!

[LoungeMachine]

:gulp:

Cheers to ya Jimbo.

It's refreshing to see a con in here with some brains and a take.

Enjoy the weekend.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
Well I understood him quite well but I am well trained in cons. jibberish..You're not gonna get me going tonight Nick, friday night and the drinks are goin down well. Got a "reasonable" chance for a hookup later so I'm stayin in a great mood tonight. Have a great one dude!

Well, have a great weekend. The Sierra Nevadas are going back nice tonight...

And tomorrow night, it's time to find a waitress...

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
I thought Gore with his heavy breathing and Kerry with his pompaus ass nature looked worse to the avg american. I am just saying that Bush came across as the more likeable guy, which to most people I think means alot. That is why I think anybody has a good chance against Billary once this becomes national and the majority of americans start paying attention. I can't be the only one on here that thinks Hillary reminds you of a bitch on wheels ex-wife. I have one of those already and their ain't no fuckin way I am going to look at another one for 4 years on TV every night. I just get chills thinking about it....I better have a shot !

As a non US person I only watched the first Kerry-Bush debate and I thought Bush was retarded, completely out his depth and had no fucking idea.

I'm guessing most US voters didn't watch it but did see the billion dollars worth of Bush adverts.

[Seshmeister]

This 'likeable' idea is so fucked up too.

Churchill was a total cunt of a man but effective at the time.

What decision in your life apart from who to go for a beer should be based on likeability?

Would you buy a shitty house because the realtor was likeable?

Or a car?

Jeez...

Cheers!

:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

Sesh...

You're an honorary American Liberal.



[what's it say about american politics when a drunken scot on a dlr messageboard is better versed, read, and informed than half the population]


:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

Only half?:)

There are millions of fuckwits here too.

We don't have the endless political TV adverts though which I think is a good thing.

Last time I checked by percentage of population thare were as many Scottish troops in Iraq as US troops which is why I take an interest in what lunatic you are going to come up with next.:)

Cheers!

:gulp:

[BITEYOASS]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
As a non US person I only watched the first Kerry-Bush debate and I thought Bush was retarded, completely out his depth and had no fucking idea.

I'm guessing most US voters didn't watch it but did see the billion dollars worth of Bush adverts.

Oh I saw that debate, and DON'T FORGET ABOUT POLAND TOO! lol :D

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Only half?:)

There are millions of fuckwits here too.
...

Cheers!

:gulp:

Jesus Christ dude, you should watch TV in Northern Virginia these days. There's a flood here with some of the most putrid negative attack ads (for state Senate) I've ever seen...

[Jesus Christ]

Thank Dad we don't have elections or political ads in Heaven