Hard rock & Heavy metal

[Cato]

what's the difference? :confused:


discuss...

[katie]

Hi Cato

Judas Priest are a good example to use.

Sin After Sin 1977 - Hard Rock

Screaming For Vengence 1982 - Heavy Metal

[binnie]

Originally posted by katie
Hi Cato

Judas Priest are a good example to use.

Sin After Sin 1977 - Hard Rock

Screaming For Vengence 1982 - Heavy Metal

I'd have to disagree with that Katie, sorry :)

Priest have always been a metal band to my ears, with the exception of Rocka Rolla, which was definately hard rock. Sin after Sin is a metal classic.

For me, the difference between Hard Rock and Heavy Metal is one of tone: Heavy Rock bands have a blusier tone on their guitars (Led Zepp, Aersomith, Kiss etc) and metal bands don't. Also, metal riffs generally "chug" more (I don't know what the technical terms is, can you tell? lol) whereas hard rock generally uses blues riffs - think of "Whiplash" vs "Black Dog."

That's the best way I can describe it.

Great idea for a thread Cato :)

[DrMaddVibe]

Righteous reply Binnie.

[binnie]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Righteous reply Binnie.

Thank-you Sir :D

[Mr Badguy]

I think it`s an attitude as well.

Hard rock bands look for a cross section of men/women in their audience whereas Metal bands don`t.

I could be wrong but in the main Metal is more of a masculine music.

[thome]

Hard Rock seems to leave room for lead Guitar.A break in the action.

More Syncopated

HM seems to be a -Rhythm Sound- driving to the end of the tunes.

Less breaks in the Rhythm.

Just guessing here?

[katie]

Originally posted by binnie
I'd have to disagree with that Katie, sorry :)

Priest have always been a metal band to my ears, with the exception of Rocka Rolla, which was definately hard rock. Sin after Sin is a metal classic.

For me, the difference between Hard Rock and Heavy Metal is one of tone: Heavy Rock bands have a blusier tone on their guitars (Led Zepp, Aersomith, Kiss etc) and metal bands don't. Also, metal riffs generally "chug" more (I don't know what the technical terms is, can you tell? lol) whereas hard rock generally uses blues riffs - think of "Whiplash" vs "Black Dog."

That's the best way I can describe it.

Great idea for a thread Cato :)

I hear what you're saying Binnie

I just looked at JP first 4 LPs and thought of them as a Hard rock band,
Then in 78 they changed their image (all leather and studs) the songs then became a tad more commercial as well with the BIG chourus etc.

Just my take

It's all apples & oranges at the end of the day.

PS - I always loved a Dave quote that went something like this 'It dosen't matter what music it is,at the end of the day it's all about shoes and haircuts'

[Cato]

the following are the things I see on the heavy metal bands and don't see on the hard rock bands.

black leather outfits, rivets, skinhead, gaudy tattoos, ESP guitars, and frown

[ace diamond]

hard rock bands have the occasional pussy ballad.bic lighters and all.
hard rocks bands attract a large number of chicks. you have fun at their concerts. you can get laid at their concerts. this is often called "arena" rock. hard rock bands want everyone to like them.
you leave these concerts peacefully, go home and sleep.


heavy metal bands have the biggest ball of them all.
heavy metal bands just plain don't give a fuck.
at heavy metal shows,you get as wasted as possible.
you get into the moshpit.you get hurt.you bleed.you get knocked on your ass.bones get broken.
heavy metal bands will kick the shit out of hard rock bands.
these are the kind of bands that write lyrics criticizing politics,war,religion etc.........if you dig it,cool. if you don't.....FUCK YOU!!!
the only times bic lighters are seen at heavy metal concert is to spark up a smoke of either variety.
you leave heavy metal shows 1 of a few ways.
1.ambulance.
2.cops
3.carried out
4.dragged out
5.you stagger out

[katie]

Where do VH (with Roth) fit in all this?

To me VH where always above all this and their live shows were an event rather than just a gig.

[naturochem]

Originally posted by katie
Where do VH (with Roth) fit in all this?

To me VH where always above all this and their live shows were an event rather than just a gig.
HM is mostly attitude, image... & like Binny said, absence of the bluesy influence found in most Hard Rock.

Modern Metal also has lost much of any sort of melody as well, depending upon short, two-note or three-note rhythmic blasts, mainly consisting of 8th or 16th notes. Some of the earlier Priest -- such as what is found on '79's Live 'Unleashed in the East" -- has a total metal vibe, and yet still contains a melodic feel, which is absent in much of the metal genre.

Funny, I remember early in my high school years when Chuck Billy, the front-man for bay area "Thrash" pioneers Testament (http://www.testamentlegions.com/), came over to my pad with Unleashed saying "dude, this is the heaviest shit I've ever heard!!!" That is the shit that motivated his entry into music... Who would have thought back then that he'd ultimately end up sharing the stage with Halford/Priest a number of times!!!

Anyway, Van Halen has the....make that, IS the party attitude that sums up the best of the hard rock genre, and with the melodic intricacies of their music, they could never be considered "Heavy Metal"....

Personally, I dig, and PLAY both.....quite well, I might add...

http://packy.dardan.com/walky/albums/album11/abq.thumb.gif

[Panamark]

2 Words.....

Speed Man !!!

Pretty easy, really.....

[naturochem]

Originally posted by Panamark
2 Words.....

Speed Man !!!

Pretty easy, really.....
There are plenty of slow Metal songs as well though...

Think: "dum da da dum da da dum" e.g. - Heaven & Hell, Holy Diver, Flight of Icarus etc etc...

[scorpion73]

The lines between the two have gotten much closer since the 1990's.As Katie mentioned,JP and bands like Metallica seem to jump between the 2.I consider early Van Halen,up to say "Diver Down", to be more hard rock sounding than rock or pop rock.Heavy metal was Black Sabbath,with their tuned down guitars and lyrics with a more sinister imagery.Led Zeppelin were more hard rock,being they tuned normally and were more "positive"lyrically.Everyone who followed more or less chose to sound like one band more than the other until the 90's.Alice in Chains could sound like BS on "Again",then sound like LZ on "I stay away".

[Panamark]

Originally posted by naturochem
There are plenty of slow Metal songs as well though...

Think: "dum da da dum da da dum" e.g. - Heaven & Hell, Holy Diver, Flight of Icarus etc etc...

Yeah, I guess.....
But could it not be argued that these slower tracks are
in fact Hard Rock ???

To me Metal is stuff like early Metallica and Megadeth,
the Priest argument is a good one, I actually think
Priest go a bit both ways (and I'm not referring
to Rob Halford's sexual tastes)
Some Priest songs I would call Metal eg: (Electric Eye)
others Hard Rock eg: (Livin after midnight)

No doubt its a great argument, the fact of the matter
is I bet 90% of us love both !

I've heard Led Zep labelled Heavy Metal, but really
the closest Metal song they have is probably the immigrant
song..
Rest of their stuff is blues based Rock/Hard Rock and even
straight out Blues...

Same argument for original Black Sabbath...
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is undeniably metal,
yet they had their fair share of hard rock
numbers too eg: (Paranoid)

Could it be that Metal is really just
a sub genre of Hard Rock ??

Rock, then Hard Rock was here before Metal.....

Perhaps the whole friggin lot is just sub genres
of ROCK !!

[binnie]

There are some great slower metal tunes though: Sabbath, Electric Wizard, Kyuss, Crowbar most Doom Metal bands (ask Bueno Bob)

Even the Metallica argument falls down here: "The Thing That Should Not Be", "Sad But True".....

I know what you mean Panamark, but I don't think that speed is a good divider....

[Panamark]

Yeah, ya got me with "The Thing that should not be"
I guess Im thinking more along the lines
of speed metal...

My head is officially popping..

I still believe Bands do both Metal and Hard Rock tunes..
Using Metallica again, what about Whiskey in the Jar ??
Thats definately a Rock song.

Perhaps Hard Rock is more melodic ???
Perhaps thats the defining difference ??

[Terry]

Originally posted by katie
Where do VH (with Roth) fit in all this?

To me VH where always above all this and their live shows were an event rather than just a gig.

I'd be tempted to say Van Halen were simply rock.

They had some stuff that sounded like hard rock, and a few tracks that were metalesque, but they were way too diverse for me to pigeonhole them into either hard rock or heavy metal.

[Panamark]

Terry,

They "ARE" way too diverse....
Were implies its over....

Lets keep the dream alive for a new album :)

[Panamark]

Cato what is your idea about the difference between HM and HR ??

[Cato]

Originally posted by Panamark
Cato what is your idea about the difference between HM and HR ??
HR is based on the blues but HM is not... I think?

[jharp84]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Terry
[B]I'd be tempted to say Van Halen were simply rock.

Technically: "BIG ROCK"

[Hardrock69]

Hardrock & Heavy metal

Go together jes' like peas 'n' carrots!
:D

http://i17.tinypic.com/6lm6wro.jpg

[Panamark]

Originally posted by Cato
HR is based on the blues but HM is not... I think?


Yeah, that and probably the rhythm and speed of the song.
HM also tends to jump around on flats and sharps in the
rhytym chords more than hard rock..

Its a really tough question, because there are many HM
songs based on the typical blues progressions...

I mean, could we not classify Hard Rock as Slower Metal ???

[naturochem]

Originally posted by Panamark
Yeah, that and probably the rhythm and speed of the song.
HM also tends to jump around on flats and sharps in the
rhytym chords more than hard rock..

Its a really tough question, because there are many HM
songs based on the typical blues progressions...

I mean, could we not classify Hard Rock as Slower Metal ???
Nope, without attitude there is no Metal!!

http://www.rockagogo.com/image/big/TR166-metalhead-dos.jpg

[rustoffa]

Originally posted by Cato
HR is based on the blues but HM is not... I think?


The metal stalwarts often point to Black Sabbath being a blues based outfit. I think Ritchie Blackmore hated what he perceived to be a bastardization of the Deep Purple moniker...as Black Sabbath's droning sound became popular. Kind of around the same timeline, Jimmy Page had glued together a supagroup after he bought some sunscreen, and a few asthma proscriptions.

Ignoring blatant questioning of the rank and file by The MC5, The Stooges, and New York Dolls, Judas Priest formed a non blues based band...with a droning sound.....2 dueling lead guitars. They had apparently ripped off Phil Lynott's idea.

IMO, Blue Oyster Cult made fun of the entire debacle as early as 1974.

More later......

[VanHalener]

Hard Rock
http://i19.tinypic.com/6yanmud.jpg

Heavy Metal
http://i9.tinypic.com/7wsstp1.jpg


;)


:rockit2: :gulp: :hitch:

[Satan]

Metal is about one thing.....

Me. http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/teufel/d010.gif

[Panamark]

Unless you are Stryper :D

[ace diamond]

Originally posted by Satan
Metal is about one thing.....

Me. http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/teufel/d010.gif

YES!!!!!!!!!!
HAIL SATAN!!!!!!

[ace diamond]

Originally posted by Panamark
Unless you are Stryper :D
FUCK STRYPER!

[Panamark]

Originally posted by ace diamond
FUCK STRYPER!

Are they still around, or did they vanish through
the gates of hell chasing Satan home ???