Border Agents Commuted

[Big Train]

Bush commutes sentences of former US border agents
By DEB RIECHMANN – 42 minutes ago (AP)

WASHINGTON (AP) — In his final acts of clemency, President George W. Bush on Monday commuted the prison sentences of two former U.S. Border Patrol agents whose convictions for shooting a Mexican drug dealer ignited fierce debate about illegal immigration.

Bush's decision to commute the sentences of Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean, who tried to cover up the shooting, was welcomed by both Republican and Democratic members of Congress. They had long argued that the agents were merely doing their jobs, defending the American border against criminals. They also maintained that the more than 10-year prison sentences the pair was given were too harsh.

Rancor over their convictions, sentencing and firings has simmered ever since the shooting occurred in 2005.

Ramos and Compean became a rallying point among conservatives and on talk shows where their supporters called them heroes. Nearly the entire bipartisan congressional delegation from Texas and other lawmakers from both sides of the political aisle pleaded with Bush to grant them clemency.
Bush didn't pardon the men for their crimes, but decided instead to commute their prison sentences because he believed they were excessive and that they had already suffered the loss of their jobs, freedom and reputations, a senior administration official said.

The action by the president, who believes the border agents received fair trials and that the verdicts were just, does not diminish the seriousness of their crimes, the official said.

Compean and Ramos, who have served about two years of their sentences, are expected to be released from prison within the next two months.
They were convicted of shooting admitted drug smuggler Osvaldo Aldrete Davila in the buttocks as he fled across the Rio Grande, away from an abandoned van load of marijuana. The border agents argued during their trials that they believed the smuggler was armed and that they shot him in self defense. The prosecutor in the case said there was no evidence linking the smuggler to the van of marijuana. The prosecutor also said the border agents didn't report the shooting and tampered with evidence by picking up several spent shell casings.

The agents were fired after their convictions on several charges, including assault with a dangerous weapon and with serious bodily injury, violation of civil rights and obstruction of justice. All their convictions, except obstruction of justice, were upheld on appeal.

With the new acts of clemency, Bush has granted a total of 189 pardons and 11 commutations.

That's fewer than half as many as Presidents Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan issued during their two-term tenures. Bush technically has until noon on Tuesday when President-elect Barack Obama is sworn into office to exercise his executive pardon authority, but presidential advisers said no more were forthcoming.

[GAR]

Disgusting. They deserved a pardon with the record fully expunged.

Now theyre out of prison, cool they shouldn't have been in there in the first place. However, if Im not mistaken, a commutation deals just with the sentence and not with restoring a person to what they once were.

Fuck Boosh!

[Hardrock69]

I agree. I have been appalled at their treatment ever since they were sent to the slammer.

They were doing what our government told them to do. It was their duty.

And they got crucified for it.

Disgusting.

[hideyoursheep]

If he knew them or had enough money to throw at the GOP, it would have happened loooong ago.

The last people in line.

Pure evil.

[Nickdfresh]

I dunno. When you begin looking past everything that the Lou Dobbes leave out, these guys shot an unarmed man and willfully lied about it by filing a fraudulent report. If any other police dept. had done that, they'd of been thrown in the slammer for a long while...

Sorry, but I'm not buying these guys are the "victims of the liberal immigration lobby" horseshit...

I agree that 10-years was too harsh. But they should serve a few years and not just get off. Then any cop anywhere has the right to open fire and then just file a false police report to CYA...

[sadaist]

I dunno. When you begin looking past everything that the Lou Dobbes leave out, these guys shot an unarmed man and willfully lied about it by filing a fraudulent report. If any other police dept. had done that, they'd of been thrown in the slammer for a long while...

Sorry, but I'm not buying these guys are the "victims of the liberal immigration lobby" horseshit...

I agree that 10-years was too harsh. But they should serve a few years and not just get off. Then any cop anywhere has the right to open fire and then just file a false police report...


What these agents did (the act itself) isn't the problem, it's the cover up they tried to pull after the fact. Rarely hear about that. Bush did the exact right thing here by commuting the sentences. Basically saying "you guys did something wrong (cover up) and it will remain on your record, but you've served enough prison time".

[Nickdfresh]

What these agents did (the act itself) isn't the problem, it's the cover up they tried to pull after the fact. Rarely hear about that. Bush did the exact right thing here by commuting the sentences. Basically saying "you guys did something wrong (cover up) and it will remain on your record, but you've served enough prison time".

If it wasn't a problem, the why did they try to cover it up?

And fine. But these guys shouldn't be allowed to guard a mall.

[GAR]

Sorry, but I'm not buying these guys are the "victims of the liberal immigration lobby" horseshit...

The van full of dope was left behind, and the drug runner got away with a bullet up his ass.

Then, the Wetback Lobby pressured for a temporary amnesty for the drug runner to obtain a visa, so that he could testify at trial.

The court disallowed testimony that the drug runner owned guns, was seen in Mexico carrying guns, and was known to run the border armed previously.

In the meantime, during the time it took to trial, the drug runner used his amnesty visa to continue running drugs of which later he was caught and is currently either on trial or convicted and in prison. I haven't followed this hopeless case in a year since, I assume he's serving time by now but you can't tell that to the Juror's and change their decision.

It's rediculous!

[GAR]

If it wasn't a problem, the why did they try to cover it up?

They discharged their weapons and failed to report it, since the guy escaped over the border.

That's it! That's why they're in trouble. If they'd filed a written report "tonite at 0200 hours, we confiscated said van and during the detainment interview, subject ran away brandishing an unknown weapon in view which we responded to with 3 shots as subject disappeared over sand dune.." they'd be free and clear of any legal issues.

They got the dope, and fired at the guy fleeing. I'd say that's doing a fine job! That's what a border cop is supposed to do and it's got to be a morale-killer for that unit to see some of their own patrolmen go to prison for doing their job.

[TongueNGroove]

If he knew them or had enough money to throw at the GOP, it would have happened loooong ago.

The last people in line.

Pure evil.


So Bush let's them go free, and you still dog him? Get your head out of your ass, please.

[Nickdfresh]

The van full of dope was left behind, and the drug runner got away with a bullet up his ass.

Then, the Wetback Lobby pressured for a temporary amnesty for the drug runner to obtain a visa, so that he could testify at trial.

The court disallowed testimony that the drug runner owned guns, was seen in Mexico carrying guns, and was known to run the border armed previously.

In the meantime, during the time it took to trial, the drug runner used his amnesty visa to continue running drugs of which later he was caught and is currently either on trial or convicted and in prison. I haven't followed this hopeless case in a year since, I assume he's serving time by now but you can't tell that to the Juror's and change their decision.

It's rediculous!


Oh, gotcha. So, the cops can summarily shoot anyone that might be a drug dealer and probably was carrying guns the previous time he ran over the border, but not the time they shot him.

Then file a false police report about it all....

Yeah, "rediculous" alright...

[Nickdfresh]

They discharged their weapons and failed to report it, since the guy escaped over the border.

Um, the shot him and failed to report why they opened fire...


That's it! That's why they're in trouble. If they'd filed a written report "tonite at 0200 hours, we confiscated said van and during the detainment interview, subject ran away brandishing an unknown weapon in view which we responded to with 3 shots as subject disappeared over sand dune.." they'd be free and clear of any legal issues.

They got the dope, and fired at the guy fleeing. I'd say that's doing a fine job! That's what a border cop is supposed to do and it's got to be a morale-killer for that unit to see some of their own patrolmen go to prison for doing their job.

They were in trouble because they shot a fleeing suspect offering no resistance, then fucking lied about it. They didn't "fail" to report, they willfully made up a work of fiction regarding their night on duty as well paid border guards...

And cop shooting a fleeing suspect will be certainly fired if not jailed. Filing a false report is a felony in itself...

If the guy hadn't been Mexican, but had been a Cuban and he'd been shot on a Florida beach after landing from a the sea during the Clinton Admin, I can only hear the uproar of right wing hypocrites about Janet Reno's out-of-control Justice dept., and the Cuban-Americans would have been burning Miami!

But we all know there's the double standard of the land of Hispanic immigrants, the Cubans fleeing communism (that vote mostly Republican) who can come here no questions asked. And the Mexicans and other Latins fleeing unemployment, despotic but US backed regimes, and drug violence fueled by US noses and fought with illegally imported US guns who are persona non grata...

[Seshmeister]

You're totally right.

There was a kind of similar case here in the UK a few years ago where the media came out defending a guy who shot a kid who had broken into his house.

Then it turned out he had shot them from behind as they ran out of the house, they were completely unarmed, with an illegally owned shotgun, and lied about the circumstances and had shot at a neighbor just the week before just for walking past his house and was a total nutcase.

It's all in the detail.

[hideyoursheep]

So Bush let's them go free, and you still dog him? Get your head out of your ass, please.

Git yer tounge out of your groove.



The last people in line.

Make sense now, dipshit? Or do you need me to spell it out for you!?
:fucku:

[hideyoursheep]

Fuck that Nick. They were crossing illegally. You think border agents should carry stun guns? when the hell are they going to get that close to use them? Those drug smugglers don't play by the rules down there. Covering shit up after the fact is wrong, but waiting to see if Gomez is a friendly is a chance I won't take, either!

[hideyoursheep]

..And don't get me started on Cubans...

[knuckleboner]

Fuck that Nick. They were crossing illegally. You think border agents should carry stun guns? when the hell are they going to get that close to use them? Those drug smugglers don't play by the rules down there. Covering shit up after the fact is wrong, but waiting to see if Gomez is a friendly is a chance I won't take, either!

law enforcement officers are always trained that you don't use deadly force unless somebody's safety is directly at stake.

that was NOT the case here. whether or not these officers thought the guy was a drug smuggler and whether or not they thought he might be carrying a weapon, he was fleeing them and they shot at his back.

we are not east germany; we do not shoot anybody who approaches our fence line.

[Big Train]

They probably shot in his direction, the guy kept going (he wasn't mortally wounded) and they just assumed they scared him off. It probably wasn't until the next time he gets caught that he comes back and offers them up. I assume the guy brandished a weapon.

I think justice was served here, but I wouldn't want them to do anything different.

[hideyoursheep]

we are not east germany; we do not shoot anybody who approaches our fence line.

You're right.

We should mine the fucking thing first.

If I'm not mistaken, The DDR line was to keep people in.

We need to keep people out.

[hideyoursheep]

law enforcement officers are always trained that you don't use deadly force unless somebody's safety is directly at stake.

that was NOT the case here. whether or not these officers thought the guy was a drug smuggler and whether or not they thought he might be carrying a weapon, he was fleeing them and they shot at his back.

What exactly are the rules of engagement for BP?

Anyone?

[LoungeMachine]

They probably shot in his direction, the guy kept going (he wasn't mortally wounded) and they just assumed they scared him off. It probably wasn't until the next time he gets caught that he comes back and offers them up. I assume the guy brandished a weapon.

I think justice was served here, but I wouldn't want them to do anything different.

probably.

assume.

I think.



:rolleyes:

[knuckleboner]

You're right.

We should mine the fucking thing first.

If I'm not mistaken, The DDR line was to keep people in.

We need to keep people out.

we're also not savages.

if we don't think you're a threat to do bodily harm, then we don't have to kill you to keep you out.



the fact is, these guys know they improperly fired their weapons, which is why they didn't report / faked a report, about what happened.

they should be punished. and they were.

[Nickdfresh]

They probably shot in his direction, the guy kept going (he wasn't mortally wounded) and they just assumed they scared him off. It probably wasn't until the next time he gets caught that he comes back and offers them up. I assume the guy brandished a weapon.

I think justice was served here, but I wouldn't want them to do anything different.


Apologist speculation, at best...

[Nickdfresh]

You're right.

We should mine the fucking thing first.

If I'm not mistaken, The DDR line was to keep people in.

We need to keep people out.

Why would we need a wall at all if nobody hired them?

As it is, immigration is down along with the economy...

And mine it all you want. But it was easier for immigrants to enter BEFORE the Clinton administration created barriers around border crossings. The reason was numbers of immigrants could stampede across and sort of "bumrush" their way into the US. When it was made more difficult is when immigrants began to settle in the US as it was too difficult to move freely back and forth between the US and Mexico. The "build a bigger wall/shoot them" argument is mostly shit at this point..

[Nickdfresh]

Why would we need a wall at all if nobody hired them?

As it is, immigration is down along with the economy...

And mine it all you want. But it was easier for immigrants to enter BEFORE the Clinton administration created barriers around border crossings. The reason was numbers of immigrants could stampede across and sort of "bumrush" their way into the US. When it was made more difficult is when immigrants began to settle in the US as it was too difficult to move freely back and forth between the US and Mexico. The "build a bigger wall/shoot them" argument is mostly shit at this point..

BTW, for clarification:

I think the argument should actually be:

If you have to pay Mexican drywall hangers as much as you pay American drywall hangers, then why would you fucking hire drywall hangers you can't understand?


It's about money and allowing corporations the luxury of thwarting the minimum wage and worker protection laws more than anything else. Gee, why would anyone think that Republicans are a bunch of two-faced fucking hypocrites on this? However do companies persist in hiring illegal aliens? Gee, the mysteries of the universe abound!

[Big Train]

I'm not apologizing for them at all. I don't mind that they shot at a drug dealer. I don't mind if they killed him. That's just me.

I say I assume, because I don't remember the finer details of the case and I also assume you don't either. Making a general statement.

If they just shot the fucker point blank with no weapon, no provocation, just as he drove up, then yea lock em up. If he was evading or attempting to injure them, all bets are off, kill him. I really don't care how many drug dealers die honestly.

[hideyoursheep]

we're also not savages.

if we don't think you're a threat to do bodily harm, then we don't have to kill you to keep you out.

the fact is, these guys know they improperly fired their weapons, which is why they didn't report / faked a report, about what happened.

they should be punished. and they were.

Since when is it 'savage' to protect your nation's border?

Why are they even furnished weapons if they cannot or should not use them?

How do we look into some one's soul to determine whether or not that person means to do bodily harm in the future if we already witness said person committing an illegal act?




Why would we need a wall at all if nobody hired them?

As it is, immigration is down along with the economy.....

What's wrong with going through the process of working legally?

Many people of many different nationalities can achive this without illegal entry and do quite well.

why should there be no repercussions for illegal activity such as coming here illegaly other than maybe being deported?

It isn't about race..

It's really not about some trigger-happy border guard...

It's about how much of a joke this nation's laws have become to those who don't care about breaking them because there are no consequences for doing so as far as they are concerned.

The exploitation business is just as big a wart as illegal immigration...

In fact, they go hand-in-hand.

Any idea how much money changes hands for things like false documentation, driver's licences, fake visas?

You know how many I've seen from Falls Church, Va?

[hideyoursheep]

You can't please everyone...


Some of you would hate it if I were in charge..

:drive:
;)

[knuckleboner]

Since when is it 'savage' to protect your nation's border?

Why are they even furnished weapons if they cannot or should not use them?

How do we look into some one's soul to determine whether or not that person means to do bodily harm in the future if we already witness said person committing an illegal act?



it's savage to shoot somebody in the back for crossing a line. apprehend them, sure. confine them. deport them. all fine. but shooting anybody seen running around the border is a bit savage. and it is certainly NOT the current U.S. policy. again, that's the reason these guys fudged on their report of the incident. they knew they didn't have the proper circumstances in which to fire.




What's wrong with going through the process of working legally?

Many people of many different nationalities can achive this without illegal entry and do quite well.

why should there be no repercussions for illegal activity such as coming here illegaly other than maybe being deported?

It isn't about race..

It's really not about some trigger-happy border guard...



so the repercussion for illegally crossing a border is death? dude, illegally immigrating is definitely against the law, but so is shoplifting, but we don't always kill people for every offense. i have no problem treating the illegal immigrant like a criminal human being, just so long as we still treat them like human beings.



It's about how much of a joke this nation's laws have become to those who don't care about breaking them because there are no consequences for doing so as far as they are concerned.

The exploitation business is just as big a wart as illegal immigration...

In fact, they go hand-in-hand.

Any idea how much money changes hands for things like false documentation, driver's licences, fake visas?

You know how many I've seen from Falls Church, Va?

then police the borders better. how many hundreds of millions (billions?) have we spent on a limited missile defense shield that won't ever be used? no actual country is going to try to lob 1 or 2 nukes at us, and no rogue group is every going to be able to set up an ICBM launch site, assuming they obtain a warhead. so, why not spend that money on upgraded border security?

[Nickdfresh]

...


What's wrong with going through the process of working legally?

Nothing. I think I've said as much, the whole point is that absolute control of the border is impossible without fucking the economy even more, and that the illegals wouldn't come hear illegally if no one hired them. Would they?

So how is it that they get hired?

Why is it the gov't seems hesitant to implement tougher checking procedures?


Many people of many different nationalities can achive this without illegal entry and do quite well.

why should there be no repercussions for illegal activity such as coming here illegaly other than maybe being deported?

Part of the problem is that there is a genuine need in certain segments such as agriculture for cheap, unskilled labor and there are in fact jobs that Americans do not want. But companies that can avoid censure in public opinion have been making gravy by skirting minimum wage and worker protections laws and this was a growing trend, although it has slowed a bit due to better enforcement and the economy...

The central problem is that there doesn't seem to be any sort of "guest worker" program that would allow for migrants to register and pass relatively easily back and forth between the US and Mexico while guaranteeing that they would only work in low wage industries without driving down wages further in more lucrative fields such as construction. They would also prevent the "exploitation" industry from cashing in whether they be transporters, forgers, or American businesses that all but advertise to illegals...

But there doesn't seem to be a middle ground. It's polarized as either build a bigger fucking wall, lay mines, and shoot them -or- allow anyone to come here and simply get the privilege of citizenship without any sort of selection process to keep out undesirables based on some immigration nostalgia and sentiment..


It isn't about race..

At least some of it is. There was a time when the biggest illegal communities were Western Europeans like the Irish were the illegals that stayed here. For the longest time, Mexicans came over and generally left. They've only begun to stay because it's too hard for them to get back and forth...


It's really not about some trigger-happy border guard...

This thread is.


It's about how much of a joke this nation's laws have become to those who don't care about breaking them because there are no consequences for doing so as far as they are concerned.

The exploitation business is just as big a wart as illegal immigration...

Sometimes laws are outdated. And people act as if immigrants have only been coming here for five or ten years. It's been going on since at least after WWII with few problems until they decided to stay in Anytown, USA...

I would in fact say that to an extent, Americans respect laws even less due to a more individualistic mindset that inherently distrusts gov't, but seems to give large corporations a free pass. I'd say most people here do not respect the speed limit, just like Sammy doesn't! :D..

The fact is that the vast majority of illegal immigrants abide by most laws other than the ones regarding citizenship.


In fact, they go hand-in-hand.

Any idea how much money changes hands for things like false documentation, driver's licences, fake visas?

You know how many I've seen from Falls Church, Va?

Of course. But Mexicans will counter that the ease of firearms laws in the US contributes to massive violence in their country and it is the illegal consumption of drugs in the US leads to huge social problems in their country. Both the USA's and Mexico's economies are inexorably linked, and there is only so much realistically that can be done....

[hideyoursheep]

it's savage to shoot somebody in the back for crossing a line. apprehend them, sure. confine them. deport them. all fine.

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:confused:

[hideyoursheep]

Nothing. I think I've said as much, the whole point is that absolute control of the border is impossible without fucking the economy even more, and that the illegals wouldn't come hear illegally if no one hired them. Would they?....

Yes Nick, they would.

Not every one that illegally crosses is necessarily looking for a job.

You know that.