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kwame k
01-31-2009, 09:16 AM
WASHINGTON – Less than two weeks into office, President Barack Obama faces a dilemma over protectionist provisions in a massive economic stimulus bill: Backing the measures could set off a trade war, while opposing them could trigger a backlash from his supporters.

The choice involves "buy American" provisions attached to White House-backed stimulus legislation moving through Congress. They would require major public works projects to favor U.S. steel, iron and manufacturing over imports.

Some Democratic lawmakers and interest groups allied to the president support the measures, but international allies and trading partners are warning that favoring U.S. companies would breach U.S. trade commitments and could set off tit-for-tat countermeasures around the world.

The two largest U.S. trading partners already have spoken out against the measures. On Thursday, Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper expressed concern and the European Union warned that it would not "stand idly by" if such measures were passed. On Friday, Brazil's president Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva also criticized the measures.

In November, world leaders, who gathered in Washington for the G-20 summit to consider how to right the global economy, pledged to avoid protectionism. But since taking office Jan. 20, Obama has said little on trade and has yet to nominate a trade representative. While campaigning, he argued that the Bush administration's strong support of free trade agreements should be moderated by including environmental and labor protections.

"The jury is out on how this administration is going on trade policy," said Steven Schrage, an international business analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "This will be a key test."

Asked about the protective provisions Friday, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs would say only that the administration was reviewing them.

The provisions are likely to find support among Americans outraged that money from a stimulus package likely to top $800 billion could go to foreign competitors of U.S. firms.

"I believe that when taxpayer dollars are used, they should support the things produced here at home," Democratic Sen. Byron Dorgan, author of one of the provisions, said in a statement.

Many analysts say the measures reflect the interests of small sectors over the larger economy, which could suffer from reduced trade and higher steel prices.

"The result, according to my calculations, is that the U.S. will lose more jobs than it will gain," said Gary Hufbauer, an economist with the Peterson Institute for International Economics, a Washington think tank. "We are going to poison the wells of world commerce if we do this."

The provisions are in a bill already approved by the House and a different version under consideration in the Senate. The Senate version states that none of the funds from the stimulus may be used for a project "unless all of the iron, steel and manufactured goods used in the projects are produced in the United States." The House version leaves out manufactured goods.

Obama, who has argued that stimulus measures are urgent, is unlikely to block passage of any bill approved by the Congress. But he could press lawmakers to remove the protectionist measures before it is passed.

"The problem is that Obama has not said anything yet," said Dan Ikenson of the libertarian Cato Institute.

Both versions of the bill include language that would allow the president to waive the protectionist measures if he decides that would be in the economic interests of the United States. But passage of the measures could in itself unnerve trading partners and encourage other countries to take similar protective action.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_trade;_ylt=Al01KgF0NClJjRWwYo7Uz7ayFz4D)

kwame k
01-31-2009, 09:23 AM
Some Democratic lawmakers and interest groups allied to the president support the measures, but international allies and trading partners are warning that favoring U.S. companies would breach U.S. trade commitments and could set off tit-for-tat countermeasures around the world.


They worry about a tit-for-tat, come on now.........to do business in China you have to build a factory in China and employ Chinese people in lead management roles......that really helps keep your product information secret and competitive.....there are so many instances of corporate espionage and stealing of proprietary information from China......they force a company to disclose information and then start a rival company using the information that said company gave them..........or "Fair Trade" is any thing but.....real simple, do on to others......we should play by the same rules as all these other countries.......

A great book to read is "Spies Among Us" by Ira Winkler..........it's an eye opener for corporate espionage.

Angel
01-31-2009, 10:21 AM
Protectionism was a huge contributor to the Great Depression.

...and Kwame, your biggest trading partner is Canada. In fact, our trading relationship is the biggest in the world.

kwame k
01-31-2009, 10:34 AM
Protectionism was a huge contributor to the Great Depression.

...and Kwame, your biggest trading partner is Canada. In fact, our trading relationship is the biggest in the world.

Not disputing that Angel, using China as an example.......I agree that Isolationism leads to many things.....a prolonged World War being just one.....I am not an Isolationist, I believe that free markets are the way to go.......but, we should have balanced and fair trade with the markets we do business with.......not special consideration but fair to both sides.......we don't have that.....

kwame k
01-31-2009, 10:47 AM
Staying with the China example............
Concern in Washington about China has been growing for some time, reflecting the unprecedented $214 billion US trade imbalance with China (through November 2006), a 16 percent increase over the first 11 months of 2005. By comparison, in 1987 at the height of US-Japanese trade tensions, the total US deficit with Japan was only $56 billion.


Moreover, the composition of the US trade balance with China is evolving. Whereas once China sold America straw goods, toys and shoes, increasingly the Chinese export high-value goods that Americans still make. China’s trade surplus with the US in electronics, for example, exploded in the first 11 months of 2006, up 165 percent over the comparable period in 2005. And the auto-parts deficit with China was up 29 percent in the first 9 months of 2006. These are politically sensitive segments of the economy.



Washington funds much of its current imbalance by borrowing from Beijing the dollars the Chinese have earned selling consumer goods to America. Almost all of this borrowing from China is through the sale of US Treasury securities – $347 billion as of November, 2006. Americans have to worry that in some future confrontation, Beijing might threaten to sell some of these highly liquid notes, driving up US interest rates overnight.



But China’s emergence as the global factory also has implications for US trade policy. Much of China’s surplus is a product of Chinese companies importing parts from Taiwan or elsewhere that are then assembled and exported to America. This role as the global-manufacturing middleman enhances Beijing’s influence throughout Asia. Thailand or Indonesia need China now more than they once did. Beijing’s recent aggressive pursuit of preferential trade agreements throughout Southeast Asia further draws these nations into the Chinese economic orbit.


Moreover, the emergence of China as both producer and consumer has meant that China, not the US, is now the largest trading partner for a number of American allies, including Japan, South Korea and Europe. As a result, Washington has relatively less influence over these governments on a range of issues.


Link (http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=8733)

sadaist
01-31-2009, 12:27 PM
I find it sad that in America we need a government provision to buy American made products.

kwame k
01-31-2009, 01:36 PM
Let me do a hypothetical scenario to make a point.......

OK, Al Gore invents a new alternative to gasoline (tongue firmly planted in cheek) yes, I know we would still import millions of barrels a day for other uses but this is a made up scenario and of course we'd need oil for many other things but...........would this stop terrorism or bankrupt the big bad oil men? No, what it would do would be to drive their product to other markets.....Yes, it might drop the price dramatically but it would not have the intended consequences we'd hope for.......stopping the Middle East from generating trillions of dollars a year and funding "terrarist".

All they would do is sell their product, albeit cheaper, to developing nations or countries that give a big FU to things like the Kyoto Treaty, you know like the US did. This simplistic, microwave mentality will never work....Yes, it may cut profits from billions of dollars to hundreds of millions of dollars a day but it will not stop Terrorism or unfriendly nations from acquiring wealth. All it would do is stop the problem here in the US and cause other countries to pollute the shit out of the Earth.....but as long as we don't see it, it's OK? It's not like if we got completely off the teat of oil it would force Oil producing Countries to just close down production and hire Joan Baez to sign a rousing round of Kumbaya.

Same with protectionism........if we enacted a law tomorrow outlawing all imports and produced everything here it won't solve all our problems.....Yes, it would hep but it never is that simple.....we don't need free markets we need fair markets......the imbalance between how we import from countries and how we allow those countries to skew how we can import with them is appalling and has been happening for decades........by tariffing the shit out of imported goods and driving the cost up to the point it would be cheaper to produce the goods here......never work because of Corporate greed and American outrage that they can't buy shit cheap.......

I love those stupid bumper stickers "Out of a job yet? Keep buying imports" Yeah, you inbreed fucking hick..... as the clothes on your back are made in 3rd world countries and the cell phone implanted to your ear is made in the good old US of A.....do a product search of your home asshole and look at the percentage of shit you own that's imported......better yet......be an example, throw away all the imports in your home.......I challenge anyone to do this......you won't have a fucking thing left in your home........but please by all means.....keep waving that American Flag made in China....You know one of the last fucking communist countries left....phew....end of rant.

I believe in a free market and believe that the best product at a completive price should win out but we are not allowed to trade that way......sure companies went to other countries to take advantage of cheap labor and NAFTA fucked us........what I still don't see anyone addressing is "fair trade" like tariffs imposed on our products going to other countries but we don't do the same......How can we compete if we have no give and take with our trading partners....A ton of blame can go to the US companies who outsourced manufacturing and labor......also to our government.......what I don't want to see is a knee jerk reaction like the dumb fucks who sold us on the fairy tale that invading Iraq would solve every problem in the world.......different scenario but the same mentality.

Even if we took away our markets and closed our borders it will not stop other countries from marketing their products.....all it will do is stop us from competing in those markets.........

Yes, our manufacturing base is fucked and we got so addicted to buying cheap shit a Wal Mart but guess what........doing a 360 and outlawing every type of import or demanding that we only produce all the goods we consume.....while on paper may sound good but will never happen.......now if we put tariffs on products made in other countries at the exact level they do or demand that China cannot sell a product in our country unless they build factories and hire American to run those factories like they do......now we're talking fair trade.......

Give us a fair chance to kick the world's ass in innovation, production and quality.....we've done it before we can do it again.

LoungeMachine
01-31-2009, 02:26 PM
I find it sad that in America we need a government provision to buy American made products.

Maybe if we hadn't made it so easy and profitable for US mfgs to move overease in the first place.....

Are there toasters, TV's, or garden hoses made in the US anymore?

Remember Sunbeam? Zenith?

We manufacture DEBT in this country...

oh, and shitty cars.

:gulp:

Nickdfresh
01-31-2009, 05:09 PM
I'm not for protectionism. But I'm also NOT for some of this bullshit where we let other countries like China get away with a lot more than any provisions in this bill...

Angel
01-31-2009, 08:32 PM
Of course, with Canada there are trade agreements... waiting to see what bullshit takes place this time around. Went through loads of fun with Clinton and the softwood lumber dispute.

Nickdfresh
01-31-2009, 08:48 PM
I'm drinking your beer as we speak...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3163/2852541346_88147059ec.jpg

GAR
02-01-2009, 01:54 AM
Let me do a hypothetical scenario to make a point.......

Your hypothesis had the hypo but lacked the thetico.

Throw this shit back in the oven set to 350* before you serve it.

GAR
02-01-2009, 01:58 AM
I find it sad that in America we need a government provision to buy American made products.

I'm finding it unfair to compete with a foreign currency (Yuan RMB) supported by our unwillingness to peg its' true value in dollars towards a floating fiscal policy that would FOR SURE provide a far-stronger exchange if the Chinese bank wasn't so crooked.

I need protection from that SHIT.

kwame k
02-01-2009, 10:39 AM
Your hypothesis had the hypo but lacked the thetico.

Throw this shit back in the oven set to 350* before you serve it.


Don't you have a cross to burn......