Shipping Damage or Foul Play?

[Sarge]

Well I finally received a really nice Esquire from a Relic Builder. It's has the Don Mare sting Ray pickup which really sounds great.
It is one of the nicest sounding Telecasters I have had the chance to play.

The neck is a fine 21 Fret USACG neck with a rosewood fretboard.
What is upsetting to me is that when I opened up the case (it's the New Fender USA case with Airport Latches) I saw this

http://www.rotharmy.com/byoc/relic1.jpg

http://www.rotharmy.com/byoc/relic2.jpg

http://www.rotharmy.com/byoc/relic3.jpg

http://www.rotharmy.com/byoc/relic4.jpg

I am going to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and hope that he did not ship it knowing that it had a cracked headstock.

But.. it looks fishy to me because

1. The placement- How many times have you seen someone screw in the upper tuner and have the wood split? It's a common mistake when you didn't drill a big enough hole.

2. It looks like the crack is "Dirty" inside. Like that when he reliced it.. some of the black relic pixie dust went in there.

What do you guys think?

[Sarge]

maybe this guy is taking relicing to a whole new level and breaking it?


:fufu:

[Sarge]

it looks really fishy to me..

[Sarge]

I would like to add that it is not "repaired" That is not glue in there.

[kwame k]

I am a drummer so, obviously my opinion doesn't count but........no fucking way was that done during shipping.....

[GAR]

Since 83 I've never seen any factory-shipped damage like this, where the finish was applied after the damage.

The shipper will deny the claim if they see the crack saturated with the lacquer like that.

[GAR]

The finish would have to be awfully soft to have spanned that gap.

Although the value of that neck has been virtually flushed down the shitter, it will function perfectly well as a club to beat the fucker down who split that headstock on you!

Leave the tuners in it when you do the pulverizing, they'll serve as meat tenderizing spikes when he winds up in emergency he'll have hundreds of these purple and yellow whelts on his back like a leopard for them to stitch shut.

Enjoy one fine-playing fucked up Tele neck Sarge!

[GAR]

http://www.rotharmy.com/byoc/relic3.jpg

The thing to look at here, is the shine from the flared Phillips grooves as the telltale overforced driving by some type of drill driver.

You may get away with driving fresh screws into bare wood when assembling tuners, alot of people escape unharmed. It may be this guy didn't predrill.

Predrilling for tuners is easy but some people don't do it because they're afraid they'll go completely thru the headstock while the drill goes uncontrollable.

This is avoided with a small strip of masking tape wrapped to a stopping point on the bit. You hold up the screw to the drill upside down with the head at the end, then you tape off the length the tip of the screw reaches up the bit.

Then, when you drill thru the hole you see the masking tape and stop the trigger before drilling down to the tape.

I've never ever split a keyhole if I pre-drilled the retaining screws before hand. I know I've seen this type damage before, and it's mostly been from the Schaller Mini's replacement fad where people don't ream the stock Kluson holes larger to accept the bigger bushings from the Schaller, Grover or Gotoh mini's. They force the key from behind, or overtighten the bushing nut from above.

Your key is the classic Kluson-type (Fender classic, Gibson classic) so there's no bushing to get wrong.

With that all said, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the guy did not predrill holes for his retaining screws, he just rammed 'em in with the cordless drill driver.

[GAR]

Dupe! ;)

[chefcraig]

Perhaps my glasses are fogged, yet to me the screw head appears jacked somewhat, as if the screw is boring into the would at an angle. This obviously points to the bore not being pre-routed. Could this have occured during shipping? The answer is yes, providing the wood was stressed enough and the guitar was dropped squarely upon the headstock. Yet the fact that residue has found it's way into the crack makes it unlikely, unless the UPS driver decided to:
(A) Open the package
(B) Determine that he was dissatisfied with the finish
(C) Decided to relic the guitar himself
(D) Repackage everything

That any of the above would have occured at the side of the road or in an office block parking lot points to the notion the headstock was damaged well before the item was shipped. However, proving the seller's awareness of this may prove to be a dodgy untertaking.

My advice to you in the future with issues like this is to hold off any reporting of things until the situation has been handled. By doing so, merely mentioning potential exposure via the internet to the seller works in your favor, as no one likes adverse publicity. In acting before resolution, it let's the cat out of the bag (so to speak), and removes any advantage you would hold over the fellow in the court of public opinion. I feel for you man, as you made the purchase in good faith. Let us know how this shakes out.

[indeedido]

No way that is from shipping. Like you said, too dirty. That has been there a while.

[kentuckyklira]

Since 83 I've never seen any factory-shipped damage like this, where the finish was applied after the damage.

The shipper will deny the claim if they see the crack saturated with the lacquer like that.

Agreed!

That is a typical crack from drilling too small a hole!

[sadaist]

It looks like the crack is "Dirty" inside.

Binnie would still hit it.

[Sarge]

here is some picutres of the crack near the tuner
I wrote the Builder a email
I am a US Army soldier stationed in Italy so it's a little expensive for me to pick up the phone and call the guy.
It looks like the top has some filler in it, but the part near the tuners does not. You can see and feel a pretty good gap in there.

http://www.rotharmy.com/byoc/relic5.jpg

http://www.rotharmy.com/byoc/relic6.jpg

[Sarge]

http://www.rotharmy.com/byoc/relic3.jpg
With that all said, I'm going to go out on a limb and say the guy did not predrill holes for his retaining screws, he just rammed 'em in with the cordless drill driver.

Gar,
I was hoping that you would comment in this thread.
I don't think the guy drilled any holes, and if he did they were too small.
This is the same guy who did the Stellar job on the Bound Bigsby guitar. That one should come in tomorrow. I am scared to se what the fuck I am going to get with that one!
:pullinghair:

[Sarge]

My advice to you in the future with issues like this is to hold off any reporting of things until the situation has been handled. By doing so, merely mentioning potential exposure via the internet to the seller works in your favor, as no one likes adverse publicity. In acting before resolution, it let's the cat out of the bag (so to speak), and removes any advantage you would hold over the fellow in the court of public opinion. I feel for you man, as you made the purchase in good faith. Let us know how this shakes out.
Thanks. I don't think it matters. There are plenty of gear forums out there.
This is a small fish in the sea compared to the others.

[Sarge]

He responds...


I've had that happen a couple of times - I put some epoxy in there and made the crack look old. I've never had any problems with that. It won't continue to crack. The last time that happened to me was about two years ago and my friend owns that guitar - still playing it.

Is it a problem?

[Reverberator]

Even though it's a relic I wouldn't be happy with that crack.

[GAR]

OMFG..

I'm rarely speechless Sarge, see above comment about Leopard Spots..

[GAR]

Even though it's a relic I wouldn't be happy with that crack.

The Custom Shop builder who would be responsible for fucking up that neck, would be told to run it through the bandsaw.. and as the 3" by 3" chunks of the necks' frets, headstock and truss are swept off the floor into the dust collector mouth, they would get sucked with a massive "clunk-clunkety-clukclunkk" sound passing thru the metal overhead ducting via high vaccuum enroute to the dumpster that awaits outside.

That would be the fate of this neck. You cannot fix it because the line of repair will always show even if I clamped it.

You could remove the tuners, and clamp it yourself. Just the ball of the headstock, a couple bar clamps with soft fabric or pieces of leather in the jaws, and white glue watered down very slightly.

I'd use 6 drops of white glue, in a coke cap, first with one drop of water stirred till it's like melted butter or thick milk. Then I'd take a razor or exacto knife and pick out the lacquer from just inside the crack - you don't want that stuck in the joint.

Then I'd brush the glue in with an old toothbrush jabbing the break deeply and squishing the parting together alot till it's completely saturated and no air in before clamping.

If you can't get good enough bite with a bar clamp, a Jorgensen clamp ("hand screw" clamp, they have wooden viselike jaws 2"x2") or one clamp should be sufficient to close the gap.

Then you wait a day. Glue sets in an hour, I'd wait a day before removing. Then with the razor again, slice and pick the glue residue then polish the end with 320 grit.

You'll remove the tinted lacquer and some of the joint, maybe you grind it down past the break and get lucky with no trace at all of the crack.

Little does this guy know you can visit the states on a furlough.. however if he's cool through all his fuckups the least he can do is send you some touchup clear - but I don't know how he's gonna mail it. Maybe one of those hobby shop plastic syringes?

When I attach tuners, I use a plastic 6" ruler to line all the gearbodies perfect, then I use a Bic pen to make an indentation for the drill, then I remove the tuners and drill with a drill press.

If I'm doing a kitchen-table assembly I might chance it with a drill driver, but that takes the chance you aren't drilling down at a perfectly perpendicular 90* degrees, which when that happens the screws going in at even the slightest angle tend to cockeye the key and you don't want that.

I'm guessing if you sight down the backside of the keys, they all look off-kilter.. not trying to start more shit, but that's how it's done.

And by "done" I don't want to drop names but it's done that at more than 6 different factorys I've been thru where a template or a CNC hasn't predrilled the keys already.

.. and I could drop names but I wont. It's how it's done! ALWAYS always retaining screws are always predrilled, never ever ever mashed-in with a drill driver.

The more this guy gets away with the necks he doesn't split, the more he'll convine himself predrilling isn't necessary and wonder what the clamor is all about.

Well, on asian necks like Mighty Mite, Squier, or other cheap soft-grained "hardwoods" like the Asian Elm and Phillipine Mahoganys passing for "maple" and "mahog" the screw thread bites its' way in just fine without a hole. But I've seen dozens of Asian branded necks or more I've rekeyed with evident factory drill-holes left, that I'm 100% percent certain industrywide we predrill retaining screws ALWAYS.

[kentuckyklira]

He responds...

That guy´s a fucking asshole!

Nuff said?


If I want cracks in my guitars I make them.

[GAR]

Oh, looking at the photo again, one more point before you clamp it:

Remove the tuners, and before you pick out the lacquer, drive a screw in there again with the tuner.

When you remove the tuners and retaining screw, the crack will close on itself.

I notice the crack isn't completely finished busting its way thru the other side to the face of the headstock so the gap will be under tension and will close once you pull the keys.

So put one key back in there, screw it down to spread the gap, then pick it out.

Hold the neck upside down, and brushing the glue in downward, let it fill the gap before you remove the key.

You won't be able to do that "squishy" thing I mentioned, causing the gap to open and close without the key because it's still under tension. Once you pull the key the second time after gluing, the gap will close and you can then clamp it until the gap closes cuntpletely.

[GAR]

That guy´s a fucking asshole!

Maybe, maybe not but one thing he isn't is a craftsman.

He's trying though but at the expense of other people, I'd advise him to find a factory to work at least a full year before taking on new work. He needs to refine what skills he seems to have a knack for.

[Sarge]

Thaks Gar, thinking about repairing it this weekend. I will use your post as a guide.

The guy emailed me back again.. I am not sure if I could post it here because it is just.. well awful.
What a mistake!

[GAR]

Like I said if he's gonna be in this business, it's a small world so he'll get a reputation before he's out of the gate if he doesn't master some of the basics by working for a factory or two and learning standard assembly procedures.

Plus, from learning about the story of how Harmony-Central bad reviews are having a severe effect on Behringer sales so much that Peavey aren't even worried about suing, all it takes is one or two poor-quality reviews to be posted about your poor service before people stop sending you stuff for repair or assembly.

[78/84 guy]

If you have picture's of before it was sent I would tell this guy it's coming back. I could have been split under the tuner and then during shipping it split more moving around in the case. But I don't like all the dirt in the split.

[GAR]

Yes those emails were a bother, but what's gonna be more of a problem is if when you pull the tuners does that crack stay open because of the epoxy he put over it?

We don't know yet.

Hopefully you can pick it out with the xacto knife.
Hopefully the crack isn't buggered with the epoxy.

Hopefully the replacement neck is sufficient.

[GAR]

.. could have been split under the tuner and then during shipping it split more moving around in the case.

The guy already admits in his email he broke it, then tried to hide it with epoxy:


I put some epoxy in there and made the crack look old.

Who ships product like this? Sarge wanted his guitar distressed and broken-in, not destroyed and broke. You can get that part free anywhere!

[chefcraig]

Yes those emails were a bother, but what's gonna be more of a problem is if when you pull the tuners does that crack stay open because of the epoxy he put over it?

We don't know yet.

Hopefully you can pick it out with the xacto knife.
Hopefully the crack isn't buggered with the epoxy.

Hopefully the replacement neck is sufficient.

That is very valid and astute observation. Now I'm wondering if in attempting to remove the crud in the gap if it may actually spread the crack even further?

More than anything, this calls for a slow, steady and most of all patient approach.

Would it be possible to suspend the headstock in some sort of solvent prior to attempting to remove the spillage in the crack, without doing any further damage to the affected area as well as the finish itself? In this manner it could serve to loosen the debris that may exist.

[78/84 guy]

[QUOTE=GAR;1321841]The guy already admits in his email he broke it, then tried to hide it with epoxy:

Sorry missed that part. I think that's pushing the relic look a little to far.

[ELVIS]

maybe this guy is taking relicing to a whole new level and breaking it?


:fufu:


Actually, I really thought that exact thing while examining the pics, but if that's the case there had better be some glue in there...

But my first opinion (as I have made this exact mistake myself) is that the crack is a result of trying to insert the tuning peg screw in a hole that is too small...

Maple is hard, but if the grain is in alignment with the hole and being close to the end of the headstock, it's easy to split...


Just my two dollars...

Feel free to pay me at any time...


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

I notice the crack isn't completely finished busting its way thru the other side to the face of the headstock so the gap will be under tension and will close once you pull the keys.



I just read all of your posts, and I agree with what you say here, that is, if there is no glue or filler in the crack, and I suspect there is some glue...


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

http://www.rotharmy.com/byoc/relic3.jpg

That looks partially filled with something...

[ELVIS]

And no kidding...

It very well may be reliced in that manner...

Look at the Yngwie relic. It's cracked like that as well as half way across the back of the body!

And look at some real vintage guitars. Cracks like that are common...

I would suggest removing the tuning peg and examining the entire crack and the screw hole with a magnifying glass...

That might reveal the true nature of whatever is going on here...


:elvis:

[GAR]

That might reveal the true nature of whatever is going on here...

Although he'll get another, this neck in the meantime needs to be fixed.

Hopefully, if his current work is any indicator of his efficiency, that crack only has surface epoxy and/or lacquer in there and can easily be picked out of the groove.

If it proves difficult or thick, I'd dab a little acetone with a Q-tip keeping the gap moist until the epoxy breaks up into little balls that can be sliced out with the xacto.

Otherwise, if wood fibers AND epoxy come rolling out, the gap could get wider from working the gap too much with the blade, so it's steady-hand work and not two sixpacks the night beforehand work.

It all depends if when the tuners come off, does the gap look like it wants to close? In that case there is hope, and there may only be a hair's worth of glue in the crack.

Main purpose in glueing is to prevent the gap from busting out to the face of the headstock. That's nothing you want to see in a guitar. I've had a neck or two like that, and everytime you look at your key when you reach to tune it, you see the fucking screw cracked gap and you just go "fuck" hating it every time you see it.

[ELVIS]

But what's wrong with something like this crack being part of a relic process as long as it is properly secured with epoxy or professional quality luthiers wood glue ??

Why does it have to be limited to a worn finish and artificially aged hardware and rusty screws, etc.

What would be wrong with, let's say a single coil cavity being gouged out with a chisle and a hammer to appear as if someone had done this to make room for a humbucker at some point and then returned back to a single coil pickup ??


:elvis:

[GAR]

Relic'ing is gently-aging.

A "players guitar" is one that's unacceptable condition to 90% everyone else. This is why pawn shops take just about any guitar, they got a market for players guitars.

[ELVIS]

"Gently-aging" isn't having nearly half of the finish destroyed...

[Top Jimmy]

Sarge-
make that fakker give you a new one!

First, after a while, that crack will spread,
from tuning the guitar and the stress it'll put on the screw...

second-
You did not pay for a cracked headstock...
at the very least make him send you a new neck/head.


Get what you paid for.

Be firm.

THIS is how he treats an American Soldier???

fucking shameful.

[Sarge]

Ok,
The guy is sending me "2" new necks.
I don't know why he is sending "2" but during the negotiation he managed to talk himself into it.
Edit..
Oh yeah.. the other neck is in exchange for the Finish Flaws on the non relic guitar (the Blue Bigsby Guitar) I haven't got that one yet.

Probably will take 3 weeks. Hopefully things will work out.
Keeping my fingers crossed.
Breasts,
Sarge

[jhale667]

Best of luck with that, Sarge. It does look like the dude caveman-drove the screw in too hard. And Gar's repair suggestions were spot on, though I agree no matter what you do, it's still going to be visible.

I'd be pissed about it, too.

[GAR]

If he can't get the shit out of it enough to clamp it shut with regular white glue, he could still salvage the neck with a refinishing but the clear would have to be really opaque with the orange candy tint to the clear heavy in order to hide the crack if he can't shut it.

OR he could let the refinisher "blend" the crack.

You have to be a really good touchup man, and they only guys who master that are piano restorers. They get good touchign up and matching grains of all kinds with colors and opaques like this of all kinds because every time you move a piano to a new owner, the movers always fuck it up. So the touchup guy gets called over to airbrush, to fill with the stain stick..

there is a couple ways to do a touchup on a crack.

Elmers makes a stick like this, in different colors of wood tone. Its intent is to fill in finish nail heads like in shelving and kitchen cabinetry, after the nail head is "set" below surface with the nailset tool. They they rub this thing like a crayon, and the wax fills it. Then they airbrush over it and it works okay.

If Sarge can't glue it, he could blade the crack open, then go to his local hardware store and find it, if its sold in Italy. It would be where they sell oil based wood stain in the paint department.

[Sarge]

I will attempt some sore of fix later this weekend.
I am thinking a vise and some Glue like Gar recommended.

Speaking of which.. would CA or watered down glue work better?
The tan Woodworkers glue might match better.

[GAR]

white glue wont leave a line, this is a crack not a joint so elmers would work or an equivalent in any schoolkids supplies

CA you mean the superglue?

That's a last resort, where if you take the tuner off and the crack won't spread open or close shut when you remove the screw, you could fill in the gap with a couple shots of then then wiping off real quick before it dries.

[jhale667]

Agreed, wouldn't use superglue to fill the crack; and unfortunately, it's probably too thin a crack to do the Elmers and sawdust trick...

[GAR]

No, superglue is used to fill gaps like this even at the factory.

If he can close the gap with little effort scraping off the epoxy, white glue.

If he has to dig it out, but it will close, white glue and then touchup with fill-stick crayon.

If the gap wont' close and there's too much epoxy in the gap, scrape some out of the crack, use fill stick, then cover with the gapfilling crazy glue, or his chick's nail polish clear.

I had a 58 strat fall off the strap, white nail polish filled the chips perfectly you'd barely notice.

[ELVIS]

Why white ??

[ELVIS]

I saw these (http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?product_id=360) while walking through Home Depot the other day...

http://www.dap.com/images/products/04080.jpg

DAP® Blend Stick® Value Packs
The fast, easy way to repair nail holes, scratches and other minor blemishes in finished wood surfaces. The four color sticks can be used individually or combined to match any wood tone. The Blend Stick's unique teardrop shape makes it easier to use than other blending products. It's ideal for wood and simulated wood surfaces such as paneling, woodwork, moulding, furniture and cabinets. It will not shrink, stain or discolor. Interior use.


I wouldn't use this method though...

I would clean the crack, put a small amount of CA in there and clamp it...

I would then work on touching up the finish...


:elvis:

[jhale667]

I saw these (http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?product_id=360) while walking through Home Depot the other day...

http://www.dap.com/images/products/04080.jpg

DAP® Blend Stick® Value Packs
The fast, easy way to repair nail holes, scratches and other minor blemishes in finished wood surfaces. The four color sticks can be used individually or combined to match any wood tone. The Blend Stick's unique teardrop shape makes it easier to use than other blending products. It's ideal for wood and simulated wood surfaces such as paneling, woodwork, moulding, furniture and cabinets. It will not shrink, stain or discolor. Interior use.


I wouldn't use this method though...

I would clean the crack, put a small amount of CA in there and clamp it...

I would then work on touching up the finish...


:elvis:


Yeah, I tried some similar DAP product like that to fill a tiny chip in one of my favorite old Charvel necks...looks OK at first, but does not age well it seems...it's totally noticeable (if you're looking for it, with the neck un-attached) these days, it darkened over time...:umm:

:guitar:

[GAR]

At a last resort of not being able to close the gap and glue it, you would dig out as much of the epoxy, then use the gap-filling superglue or CA, or whatever they have in Italy there..

Then you'd scrape the crack again to chip out what superglue oozes out so you could use the touchup stick - its part nylon pigments and mostly wax.

It's like a crayon, Sarge would use the tan colored one. You rub it into the crack, till it's level. But it butters all over the back of the fucking headstock - sure - but it will rag-off no prob.

Lastly, he could use Mrs. Sarge's nail polish clear, and clear coat over the touchup area. But no matter what, the hardest place to get away with this trick is the endgrain.

Which is why I hope the gap closes up, the endgrain may soak up the superglue and darken it slightly around the gap edge.

Also one might think to recommend the yellow woodworker's glue like Titebond II, which is the best and I'd use that for glueing fingerboards or body joints for superstrong holds - it contains aliphatic resin which is not easily water-soluble as is white glue.

But in fact the white glue will hold well enough in most cases for al guitar solidbody construction by itself, if the joint-edge of the two glued pieces are planed and parallel enough. However this is a gap not requiring strength, but requiring aesthetics so the white glue dries clear and in some cases not easily detectable after a break.

I've done a few headstock repairs, but wouldn't consider white glue at a headstock-nut area break. I'd use the Titebond II.

[Panamark]

I would have been pissed off bigtime Sarge...
If for no other reason that he didnt tell you there
was such an obvious "relic scar" before shipping it..
Obviously he knew it was there.

My 2 cents...

[GAR]

Yeah, I tried some similar DAP product like that to fill a tiny chip in one of my favorite old Charvel necks...looks OK at first, but does not age well it seems...it's totally noticeable (if you're looking for it, with the neck un-attached) these days, it darkened over time...:umm:

:guitar:

For neck dings I use a fucked up terry towel edge or old teeshirt, soaked in water you hold it in the ding-spot then roll the barrel edge not the tip of a low wattage soldering iron, like a 15-25 watty.

You roll as the steam rises, then pull the towel and look. As the grain rises you keep doing it till you get it level enough as you can. But in some cases, you need to chip a little of the finish off the indented area you're trying to raise level or else no moisture will get in to steam the fibers puffy and outward again to their original surface.

That's about 80% percent effective, for cheap necks or really fucked up dents I'd use the Elmers' wood putty - that's a paste it comes in little spackle tub or a tube and dries pretty quick. But the best filler is Famowood- that shit's got acetone in it and bites into the old wood really good, dries hard and dries quickly too.

Famowood takes stains and finishes best, and you can just butter it into gashes in bodies where you'd be tempted to use Bondo plastic filler. Famowoods' better for bare wood and most damages, Bondo would be preferred to paste over Kahler bridge plugs - which I got to do on a couple soon.

[Panamark]

That fucker should have offered to pay all freight costs and
exchange the neck... Wreaks of someone knowing they are
sending something that maybe questionable but tries to get
away with it anyway.

Damn, GAR & Elvis and all the good fellas on Page 1,
I feel majorly inadequate just attempting an intonation
adjustment after reading your posts !!!

I know Elvis doesnt do this for a living,(but could)
GAR, do you still do this shit ?? Are you a certified luthier
by any chance ? You know a shitload about this stuff

Are any of you other fellas making dollars from your craft ?
KK ?? CC ?? Jay ??? (Hope I didnt miss anyone)

Fookin ace advise, always......

[GAR]

I know Elvis doesnt do this for a living,(but could)
GAR, do you still do this shit ??

Nope, used to though and E sounds like he's got skills too.

Sarge doesn't seem that upset because he understands that "company" is a one-man.

Think small, act small, stay small. Perhaps the guy hasn't had a decent mentor or sought to apprentice himself to master this craft, so to stay out of future trouble what he should do is just focus on distressing finishes and hardware.

Which anyone can do: the factory uses chain pieces, wire cleaning brushes, glass microscope slides and wood scrapers and knives before final polish, and dipping plated hardware in muriatic pool solutions or cleaning acid is nothing new: the vintage guitar market fakers have been doing that for 25 years now.

[ELVIS]

Well, maybe the guy needs someone firm who demands the services that were agreed upon and paid for...

If the guy is worth his salt, he will learn from the process as well as having more satisfied customers in the future...

Nothing wrong with making an honest mistake...The problems arise when the "professional" doesn't own up to them...

And BTW, i'm not just referring to Sarge's particular case...


Also...I'm gonna try to get off my lazy ass tonight and post some of my guitars, workmanship and projects...


:elvis:

[GAR]

If the guy is worth his salt

Why devalue the salt with comparisons?

[Sarge]

I noticed that there was a 2nd crack developing on the opposite end of the first crack

http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/30.jpg


So I decided to take off the tuners and vise the neck together and fix this mess

And lookie what I saw?! Every FUCKING TUNER has a crack!

http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/18.jpg
http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/8.jpg
http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/8.jpg

I think it's obvious that he didn't predrill the neck. You can see by all the extra wood hanging out of the holes

Oh, let's look at the other end?!
http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/19.jpg


Because the neck didn't line up correctly , the Mark Jenny Painted body I provided got really messed up
http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/20.jpg

[Sarge]

So here are the problems

1. I asked that the body be shielded. It wasn't done.
2. That neck is toast. I provided it new from USACG
3. The body I provided (mjtelecaster.com) was prepainted and reliced. It was Not missing a huge chunk out of where the neck plate attaches.

[Sarge]

So I recieved the 2nd guitar the same builder was making today.

The body and neck, pickups and all hardware were bought by me and sent to the builder. Tommy at USACG made a special body that has a pitched neck pocket and he mounted the studs for the Roller bridge.
I paid the builder for
a. Pro setup / assembly / shielding / adding a nut
b. Pickups wiring
c. Paint the body and neck to a "NEW" finish, not a relic or closet classic
d. shipping back to me.
e. I bought the wood because I wanted USACG instead of Allparts, which is what most builders use. I didn't know it then , but that was a mistake.


It arrived inside of it's box

box>case>guitar

No padding
http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/27.jpg

No strings on the guitar! Once of the first things I noticed was the hardware that fell off the neck was loose inside the top part of the case
When I picked up the guitar the knobs fell off onto the floor.
http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/28.jpg
Decided to check out the guitar
Nick in headstock

http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/1.jpg

Chips around truss rod hole
http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/2.jpg

Where is the screw?
http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/4.jpg

http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/5.jpg


http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/10.jpg

Neck pocket Chip
http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/16.jpg

Weird Indentations
http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/13.jpg

Look at the binding paint
http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/15.jpg

http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/24.jpg

Messy pant around binding

http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/25.jpg


Look at the logo. It has bubbled up and has air under it.
http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/33.jpg



I am not someone who is concerned about every single problem, but I really feel like I got ripped off here.
Who ships a guitar without strings? I can't imagine it's setup.
Who misses installing a pickguard screw.
This guys attention to detail is really lacking.

I am going to ask for a full refund.

Everything is done to level BELOW what I could have done it at.

I am going to set up the Bigsby model tomorrow and see what other issues await me.

What a waste of my time...

[GAR]

Sorry man my sympathies.

The wierd dent by the bridge is from the guy playing with the hardware, lining up the bridge pieces while the clearcoat's still drying for some reason which I suspect you'll find the reason if you pull that and look underneath.

The decal looks like an inkjet waterslide decal, and if it is a real one, it's bubbling because you're supposed to screed water from beneath it like a windshield wiper.

You could use a playing card, a safety blade if you're careful but even when you're not and air bubbles happen you screed it to flatten it down. But you do that while it's wet.

If it's dry, its pretty hard to do but I've seen repositioning done. You take some warm, slightly soapy water (ivory bar, just wipe a finger or two then rinse in the warm water bowl no oily soaps) and just dab it. As the acrylic transfer takes on the water, you might be able to slide it down a little and dab the bubble down to lay flat.

http://www.thefretshack.com/teles/20.jpg




Because the neck didn't line up correctly , the Mark Jenny Painted body I provided got really messed up

Part of this is the guy struggling with the different bolt-patterns (it's always a hair off, that's why I mentioned doweling earlier) and all of those 2 screws chipping like that is the drill bit going down in from the wrong way (inside the pocket) busting out the paint, chipping out the wood, as the bit passed its' way out of the body.

You never drill OUT of a body, you only drill in. Plus he has the wrong size bit going in there, you'll notice he figured he'd just take some of that wood out of the way there for you so he could reach the neck holes.

Here's the thing about neck holes: FUCK em. They're not a magic bolt-circle pattern for your '73-1/2 Hemi Cuda convertible.. the neck is there for the screws to bite into, not the other way around. The screw is the priority!

The SCREW determines the lineup like I mentioned before: this guy should have stopped right there when he saw the misalignment and emailed you "what do I do now" but instead he damages the body. The screw holes don't matter for shit, you get two differently-sourced pieces and automatically dowel the neck holes. Drill out the holes for 1/8-3/16" and slide in the dowel with white glue, nip off with cutters, then block sand the dowel ends smooth with the neck.

Then you drill thru the body. The screws should always bite into new wood with every new body - I cant' think if I've ever had a perfect alignment out-of-the-blue! I have a neck or two with 4 or 5 redrillings.

But you drill into the body for neck screws, if wood breaks out its gonna break out but you let that happen on the pocket side not the painted side.

The Missing Screw: oops, looks like he dropped a pickguard screw. When I did work I had trays of shit, I'd get these by the hundreds and if I dropped a screw like this I'd pull one off another lesser piece of mine and replace it when I got another bag of scews.



Once the decal's flat you can spray acrylic lacquer over it to seal it from scratching off. Without a clear coat a decal is very susceptible to scratching off, very delicate.

In the 50's before they clearcoated the decals, the neck lacquer was nitro and the decal was nitro, not acrylic. So it would shrink as the neck lacquer shrank over many years, bonding itself to the neck. Still delicate, but less so compared to acrylic straight-laid on.

[78/84 guy]

That is fucked !! I would ask for a refund, be nice about it so you don't piss him off but at the same time be firm your not going to just let it go. If he start's to act like a dick tell him you are going to report him to the better business buero and post his name and photo's of his work on every guitar site you can on the internet !! I'm sure you spent alot of money on part's that are now fucked so I would tell him to refund some of the money for those to. He really fucked up the relic guitar !! Chance's are slim that he will do anything positive but you never know.

[Sarge]

I paid by paypal .. transferred the money in from my debit card.

Which one is better for filing a claim if he doesn't agree to the refund..
pAYPAL or my visa/bank debit?

[Sarge]

Gar thanks for responding. I am too tired to type..
Talk to you guys tomorrow...

[GAR]

I think youre covered both ways, but I'd take the time to document it all down in detailed bullet points, then call in for a claim form immediately.

With the card, you got 60 days, but with Paypal I think you got 120. But the sooner you call in the claim the better.

[Sarge]

Gar,
which one would you do? Paypal or the debit/visa/bank route?

[GAR]

Paypal is separate, totally separate from any claim with your bank.

You need to inform both especially since the born-on date of the inital transaction expires.. when? Shortly I'd assume.

You have two issues, I'd do both. Do Paypal tonite, it's easiest to hit. In the morning you can call your Customer Service at the bank and reverse charges for services not rendered and non-shipping damage.

[ELVIS]

I'd do paypal...

They will take care of you and any problems...

[Panamark]

That fucker smells fishier than Madonna's old vag !
What a turd burglar !! If you get your money back Sarge,
I would be happier than a seagull with a mouth full of fries...
Guitars are collectible works of art... Fook him !!!!
In fact he shuld pay you some hush money !!:devils:

[Sarge]

The guy agreed to give me a full refund and replace the neck...
I will let you guys know how it goes.. and thanks for the advise.

Breasts,
Sarge

[GAR]

Guitars are collectible works of art... Fook him !!!!

.. there may be a good clowning comin up for him

Know what I would just do, is keep it, play it, leave it as it is.

I'd put the tuners back in, let 'em split all the way thru. Grate cuntversation piece. It'll still play that way for years.

After all you get a refund, you'll get a replacement neck, and you need to start all over with another body anyways.

[jhale667]

I paid by paypal .. transferred the money in from my debit card.

Which one is better for filing a claim if he doesn't agree to the refund..
pAYPAL or my visa/bank debit?


Sorry for the late response, SARGE, been sick.

I'd agree, do a claim through PayPal, coordinated with your bank. That guy jacked you.

As for GAR's neck bolt theory, why would this guy have needed to "try different patterens" if he'd lined the shit up correctly to start with?

[GAR]

Sorry for the late response, SARGE, been sick.

I'd agree, do a claim through PayPal, coordinated with your bank. That guy jacked you.

As for GAR's neck bolt theory, why would this guy have needed to "try different patterens" if he'd lined the shit up correctly to start with?

He has to file a claim for both Paypal and his bank.

I think Paypal will totally fuck this guy out of everything if he doesn't refund in the next few days, if they do not Sarge has to rely on the purchase guarantee with his bank in a bank-to-Paypal transfer case for goods and service not received.

May sound like extra effort, but there won't be a double-pay on this. There will be a definate no-pay on it if Paypal wants to be a fucking dick like they were to me.

My situation was a different deal, I sent hardware and the guy disputed receiving it: I go and fucking type in the Fedex proof number, and the fucking website within SECONDS of posting the tracking # goes "okay fuck you, we determined this case in favor of the buyer" and I was WTF?

Fuck paypal, crooked pieces of shit. Never will I use them again, and if I use ebay again I will only take MO, if they wanna force me to use Paypal they can go fuck their fucking selves I got property deals and other shit going on so fuckem.

It's just so wrong. I was talking to Will Ray at NAMM and he feels exactly the same as I do: he went futher - he said when eBay started taking away the seller feedback, he quit selling his crap on ebay and sold his stock.

Will Ray says Fuckem. I said Fuckem. So fukkum!

[GAR]

Oh Jay, the neckbolt thing is no theory, you dowel the holes and redrill everytime. You dont' damage anything, but you do have to sand down whatever you use (dowel, twigg, matchsticks etc) flush with the pocket end of the neck before you remount with fresh holes.

Fresh holes every time one body meets an unmounted neck.

[ELVIS]

You could have just sent the parts to Gar or myself...

I'd have done the work professionally, beautifully, and for you, for FREE!


Seriously,


:elvis:

[Romeo Delight]

Not experienced with guitars, but have worked with all types of wood...finishing and refinishing for years.

The only way to fix this is with yellow woodworkers glue, not white glue. White glue is for kids and art projects. In fairness there are white glues that work but yellow glue is more reliable generally.

Key is to clean out crud from shite repair and then inject yellow glue with syringe if necessary. Then clamp and whipe clean with wet rag.

Then apply an epoxy putty stick. Nothing else will work. Products like the link below work amazingly. You should try to test to see what color it will dry. My experience is that you should try a lighter color than you think at first glance as it tends to dry darker.

No shrinkage at all and durable. I have never used this one in particular, but trust me, this type of product is the shit:

http://www.kingdomrestorations.com/catalog_i86625.html

[jhale667]

Oh Jay, the neckbolt thing is no theory, you dowel the holes and redrill everytime. You dont' damage anything, but you do have to sand down whatever you use (dowel, twigg, matchsticks etc) flush with the pocket end of the neck before you remount with fresh holes.

Fresh holes every time one body meets an unmounted neck.


I disagree.
Why would you need to dowel holes in a prefab body, unless you fucked them up in the first place? I can see doweling holes in a neck if you're remounting it, or if the holes in the body weren't pre-drilled at the factory (and again, you fucked them up), but never in a new assembly on a pre-drilled body and a neck w/o holes drilled. You align the shit correctly the first time, no need to dowel or re-drill. Perhaps throw in some matchsticks to make it bite better if the holes were drilled over-size. Maybe.

No one who ever helped me attach a neck in the past (before I learned to do it myself) needed to...except once, and it still wasn't necessary on the body.

Saw one semi-well-known area Luthier have to several years back on one of my necks when he thought he was so cool he didn't have to pre-align things...

I was like "Aren't you going to line them up first?"

He replies, while drilling "I've been doing this for so long I can just....uh-oh."

I respond "What the fuck do mean 'uh-oh'? Don't give me 'Uh-oh'!!" :pullinghair:

:guitar:

[Sarge]

The neck is through. I am going to replace it.
I used yellow woodworkers glue and CA to do the repair.
I clamped it.
It doesn't look too bad.
I might just leave it like it is until the neck falls completely apart.
When the weather starts changing again I bet we will se if it starts cracking some more..

The fretboard is really dark and the guitar sounds really good.
What a shame.

[Sarge]

You could have just sent the parts to Gar or myself...

I'd have done the work professionally, beautifully, and for you, for FREE!


Seriously,


:elvis:

Dude,
I would never not pay someone for work.
I know how to setup a guitar really... really good and wire in pickups.. etc..
But I haven't learned to paint.
I just don't want to learn how! I am too busy!

Are you using the reranch products?

[jhale667]

I've done some sealer-coats and prep for finishes before, and would like to learn how to use a proper sprayer/airbrush rig instead of the aerosol-can finish products you can get from Stew Mac. But I'm like you, Sarge, in that I don't have the time, nor the space to set up a properly ventilated spray-booth at the moment.

One look at the rolling gnat-storms that buzz through my neighborhood when it's warm deterred me from trying anything on my patio...:eek: I'd be sanding those little bitches out of every coat...

[Romeo Delight]

I've done some sealer-coats and prep for finishes before, and would like to learn how to use a proper sprayer/airbrush rig instead of the aerosol-can finish products you can get from Stew Mac. But I'm like you, Sarge, in that I don't have the time, nor the space to set up a properly ventilated spray-booth at the moment.

One look at the rolling gnat-storms that buzz through my neighborhood when it's warm deterred me from trying anything on my patio...:eek: I'd be sanding those little bitches out of every coat...

I am very good at finishing, having spayed every known finish imaginable.

You can actually get by with a smalll gun and pot for under $100.

You don't need a booth, just a relatively dust free space with ventalation, some good fine sandpaper and sanding sponge pads, and the knowledge.

The key is getting the right viscocity in the lacquer/paint to spray a smooth coat. Common mistakes is spraying too much. Patience grasshopper...

I may put in a tutorial on the basics of spraying. I actually finished fine furniture for an entire house with a $100 gun and no spray booth. The pros can do just as good a job on-site with the small setup as you can in a booth.

[jhale667]

I may put in a tutorial on the basics of spraying. I actually finished fine furniture for an entire house with a $100 gun and no spray booth. The pros can do just as good a job on-site with the small setup as you can in a booth.

Please do! :D Though I think in my current location, well-ventilated and dust-free are nearly impossible, I would still love to see it! :killer:

[GAR]

I disagree.
Why would you need to dowel holes in a prefab body

nonono JAY shit..

the NECK! The body holes dicktate where the neckholes will correspond as they go in.

You predrill (I think it is a 3/64th, haven't done it in a decade) the top pair, closest toward the tuners, straight down, directly center of the body holes.

Then, you drive 2 screws straight down, perfectly perpendicular to the body, 90* degrees save for a few turns.

Then, with that holding the neck in the pocket, predrill the next 2 neck screw holes angling from the top edge to the bottom opposite edge angling the drill motor towards the bottom of the guitar.

The slight angle is the KEY to pulling the neck into the slot, assuming the end of the pocket is coiffed of polishing manure, and paint and shit. You then drive the two screws in tight with the last full turn done BY HAND with the guitar butt down against the bench with hand on neck pushing down into the slot. Then you crank that last critical turn, then you do the last turn on the other screws.

It's a delicate procedure. I've seen guys say "why can't I get rid of that gap at the end of the neck?" well it's because they probably didn't redowel the neck holes and redrill, or understand the geometry of how the factory screws grab the neck.

I never said drill the body I said the body holes dictate the position of the screws: I mean, it's obvious.. just look at the plate! You have leeway going into the neck, but none with the body because the phillips heads must cinch down with the countersink for them in the plate, or they'll stick out obviously.

[ELVIS]

Dude,
Are you using the reranch products?

Not yet, but i've talking to them and i'm gonna get a couple cans of nitro and see how it looks on a neck...

I'm impressed with some of the sunburst jobs done by amatures on that site...


BTW, that CA glus isnt going anywhere when the weather changes...

Glue two two by fours together and try to break it at the glue joint...

A harem of virgins says you cant do it...


:elvis:

[GAR]

A harem of virgins can try to win the bet to break me, though.

[Sarge]

Well I found out why the Bigsby didn't have strings!
I stringed it up and gave it a minor setup (neck relief, action)
Plugged it in.. no sound.
I looked inside the control cavity and it looks like everything is good to go.
Going to put it on a multimeter and see what the guy did.
What a complete fucking retard!
Breasts,
Sarge

[Romeo Delight]

Please do! :D Though I think in my current location, well-ventilated and dust-free are nearly impossible, I would still love to see it! :killer:

It may have to wait until I move in about 3 months or so, but I will do it.

If it was summer, I could just set everything up out in the yard.

Dust-free is a relative term...immediate area just has to be dust-free.

Here is the type of pot I have been found to be most useful

http://www.allproducts.com/machine/geantai/08-pressure_pots.jpg

http://www.lemmer.com/contents/en-us/image_viewer.html?lmd=39863.621528

These types

http://www.lemmer.com/index1.html

with the spray gun attached to the pot (gravity-fed) always have problems unless you are meticulous with cleaning them. You should abviously clean any gun after spraying, but the first one is much better with a gun attached to a hose, rather than the pot itself. You hook the pot to your belt and have the spray gun in your hand.

I have seen the gun come with the pot at any auto supply store for about $100.

I won't get into the differences betwenn HVLP and Conventional other than this quick explanation. HVLP is better, but I have had superb results with conventional (and cheaper) spray guns.

Conventional
A spray gun combines the coating (paint) and compressed air from a separate air compressor in order to atomize the coating and direct it to the target surface. The coating is held either in a small bottle or container attached to the spray gun or in a separate pressurized container attached to the spray gun with a hose.

HVLP (High Volume Low Pressure)

This is similar to a conventional spray gun using a compressor or HVLP turbine to supply the air, but the spray gun itself requires a lower pressure (LP). A higher volume (HV) of paint is therefore applied at a lower air pressure. This results in more paint landing on the target surface instead of staying airborne. A regulator is often required so that the air pressure from a conventional compressor can be lowered for the HVLP spray gun.

HVLP spray systems are used in the automotive, marine, architectural coating, furniture finishing, and cosmetic industries.

[GAR]

Well I found out why the Bigsby didn't have strings!
I stringed it up and gave it a minor setup (neck relief, action)
Plugged it in.. no sound.
I looked inside the control cavity and it looks like everything is good to go.
Going to put it on a multimeter and see what the guy did.
What a complete fucking retard!
Breasts,
Sarge

Check for a grounding wire from either the bridge or the Bigsby tail coming out into the cavity. Should be one black stranded wire grounded to the back of a pot.

I wouldn't be surprised if he wired the ground to the hot side of the pot, the way this is turning out.

Betcha there's a ground wire off neither. When you place your palm on the strings, they ground out 60cycle wall power hum. The way it's done is wiring all grounds of pickups, pots and bridge grounds common off the back of the pots to the neg tab of the output jack.

[GAR]

HVLP spray systems are used in the automotive, marine, architectural coating, furniture finishing, and cosmetic industries.

HVLP setups used to be mega-expensive, now they've come down quite a bit.

Just the gun used to be $400.

I still like conventional pressure tank systems, it's just a feel. I had a regulator on my tank, and a mini one on my cup gun to balance any capacitant pressures within the hose because I dreaded that "drop" you get when you first hit the trigger.

Conventional still wastes more material than HLVP, it's more creative to work with but less effective overall.

My spray booth is an ancient 10x10 DeVilbiss with the vertical stack exaust and 2hp TEFC motor, and my tank is an Ingersoll 250 gallon gas station type. But I'm not setup to do any work right now, I bought that shit along time ago so I could paint cars and trucks as well as the guitar resto's it all sits stored and stacked.

[ELVIS]

Well I found out why the Bigsby didn't have strings!
I stringed it up and gave it a minor setup (neck relief, action)
Plugged it in.. no sound.
I looked inside the control cavity and it looks like everything is good to go.
Going to put it on a multimeter and see what the guy did.
What a complete fucking retard!
Breasts,
Sarge

Hmmm...

I've paid for paint work and some of my scallop jobs but never anything else...

Why would you waste money on having some jackass do that for you ??



:elvis:

[GAR]

I wonder if the electrical problem is due to shipping damage, maybe we could see some pix..

Surely the guy could at least get the wiring right!

[Sarge]

I looked into the control cavity and didn't see anything that looked wrong.
I checked the connections with the mulimeter and didn't see anything wrong.
I didn't look too closely.
The action is way too high.. even when the bridge is all the way down. At
the 12th fret it's .080 (fretted on the 1st fret) which is too high for me.

The bridge tune o matic posts need to be recessed or the bridge needs to be
grounded down so that the action is lower.
He really sent a non working guitar.
Anyways..
I sent it to Phil jacoby (philtone.com) today
for a plek, professional setup and to fix the bridge. I figure it's worth
the 275.00.. because right now I am not happy with the guitar at all.
Not sure what I am going to do about the horrendous paint on that thing. The
binding edge looks very.. well GAY!.
Hopefully I will get a refund and it will offset these costs.
What a money pit..
Thanks..

[GAR]

He had trouble with the output jack cup: I bet that's where the problem is, shorting out at the jack.

[Sarge]

:barf::barf::barf::barf:
He had trouble with the output jack cup: I bet that's where the problem is, shorting out at the jack.

I think his problem is ... is that he is a dickhead.

Nothing went right with the build.

All the money I sunk into it hopefully will be returned so I can start off fresh!
:barf::barf::barf::barf::barf::barf:

[GAR]

You're asking him to cough up the entire bill for his services refunded, plus the cost of the neck, or the entire cost of everything?

[Sarge]

He has agreed to send me a new neck and refund ALL of my money.
I filed a paypal dispute .. which prompted this.
I should have the check in hand between the 27th of Feb to the 5th of March.
Apparently he had some psych issues
I will keep you guys posted..

[GAR]

I think you need to place a claim with the card company, also.

With Paypal there's still the chance they could screw you, whereas you'd be covered by the card's merchantability preclusion against damage and services not rendered.

[Sarge]

I filed a claim with both.
Mastercard wants me to get an estimate from a luthier or a statement of non professional work.
I have some time.. I am going to wait for the check and if he doesn't come through .. pursue both of those avenues.
He already mailed the neck..

[ELVIS]

And next time on any Tele, use this (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Components:_Jacks/1/Electrosocket_Jack_Mount/Pictures.html#details)...

http://www.stewmac.com/product_images/1lg/4283/Electrosocket_Jack_Mount_Detail.jpg

http://www.stewmac.com/product_images/2lg/4283/Electrosocket_Jack_Mount_Detail2.jpg


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Apparently he had some psych issues
I will keep you guys posted..

:lmao:


:elvis:

[GAR]

I was curious to note the tunamatic, you may have to mill off quite a bit.

I've ground things like this down on the belt sander, if you do it slow enough and have a can of water to dip cool it, you won't burn the metal or the plating when there's so much to trim off.

[GAR]

Fender® Custom Shop (http://www.fender.com/customshop/instruments/search.php?partno=9270000354)

Sarge I found a pic of what I mean by "parchment" color pickguard material.

I don't know if Fender calls it Parchment but when Chandler used to be the only guy around doing custom pickguards and he called that color stock "parchment" as I recall.

It's "not" yellow, nor "mint" green.

Mint green occurs when a guitar sits in the case forever, a side-effect of plastics decay leeching Formaldehyde, discoloring the nitrocellulose in the original 50s-60s pickguard materials and also the knobs.

[ELVIS]

I have a Warmoth parchment pickguard and it's lust slightly off white...

Very nice...

But strip a pickguard and set in the sun for about an hour a day for a few days...

Instant parchment!


:elvis:

[Sarge]

Got the refund..
Still waiting on the neck.
Should be here any day now.

The Bigsby guitar is at Phil Jacoby's getting properly worked on.
the action is at .70 with the bridge all the way down. Either the bridge needs to be shaved down a bit or the posts for the bridge need to be recessed.
I am sure Phil will work it out.