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chefcraig
03-10-2009, 12:37 PM
War on the Rich?
The bogus GOP claim that Obama is trying to bleed wealthy Americans.

By Daniel Gross

To hear conservatives tell it, you'd think mobs of shiftless welfare moms were marauding through the streets of Greenwich and Palm Springs, lynching bankers and hedge-fund managers, stringing up shopkeepers, and herding lawyers into internment camps. President Obama and his budgeteers, they say, have declared war on the rich.

On Tuesday, Washington Post columnist (and former Bush speechwriter) Michael Gerson argued in an op-ed that "Obama chose a time of recession to propose a massive increase in progressivity—a 10-year, trillion-dollar haul from the rich, already being punished by the stock market collapse and the housing market decline." The plans are so radical, "there will not be enough wealthy people left to bleed." CNBC's Larry Kudlow wrote that "Obama is declaring war on investors, entrepreneurs, small businesses, large corporations, and private-equity and venture-capital funds." Other segments on the financial news network warn of a tax on the rich, a war on the wealthy. My personal favorite was a piece from ABCNews.com, which had to be rewritten and reposted because the original was so poorly done. (The revised version isn't much better.) It quotes a dentist who is contemplating reducing "her income from her current $320,000 to under $250,000 by having her dental hygienist work fewer days and by treating fewer patients. [That way, she] would avoid paying higher taxes on the $70,000 that would be subject to increased taxation if Obama's proposal is signed into law."

It's hard to overstate how absurd these claims are. First, let's talk about the "massive increase in progressivity" that Gerson deplores. It consists largely (but not exclusively) of returning marginal tax rates to their levels of 2001, before Gerson and the epically incompetent Bush administration of which he was a part got their hands on the reins of power. Obama wants to let marginal rates for families with taxable income (not total income, but taxable income) of more than $250,000 revert from 33 percent to 36 percent, and to let the top rate—currently 35 percent on family income above $357,000—revert to 39 percent. There's also talk of capping—not eliminating, but capping—deductions on charitable giving and mortgage interest.


Obama's proposals don't mean the government would steal every penny you make above the $250,000 threshold, or that making more than $250,000 would somehow subject all of your income to higher taxes. Rather, you'd pay 36 cents to the government in income taxes on every dollar over the threshold, rather than 33 cents.

Second, this return to 2001's tax rates was actually part of the Bush tax plan. The Republicans who controlled the White House and the Republicans who controlled the Congress earlier this decade decreed that all the tax cuts they passed would sunset in 2010. They put in this sunset provision to hide the long-term fiscal costs of the cuts. The Bush team and congressional supporters had seven years to manage fiscal affairs in such a way that they would be able to extend the tax cuts in 2010. But they screwed it up. Instead of controlling spending and aligning tax revenues with outlays, the Bush administration and its congressional allies ramped up spending massively—on two wars, on a prescription drug benefit for Medicare, on earmarks, etc. Oh, and along the way, they so miserably mismanaged oversight of Wall Street and the financial sector that it required the passage of a hugely expensive bailout. Even before the passage of the TARP, the prospect of extending all the Bush tax cuts was a nonstarter. Once Bush signed the $700 billion bailout measure into law, extending tax cuts was really a nonstarter. The national debt nearly doubled during the Bush years. So if you want to blame someone for raising taxes back to where they were in 2001, don't blame Obama. Blame Bush, his feckless Office of Management and Budget directors, his economic advisers, and congressional appropriators like Trent Lott and Tom DeLay.

Third, we know from recent experience that marginal tax rates of 36 percent and 39 percent aren't wealth killers. I was around in the 1990s, when tax rates were at that level, and when capital gains and dividend taxes were significantly higher than they are today. And I seem to remember that we had a stock market boom, a broad rise in incomes (with the wealthy benefitting handily), and strong economic growth.

Fourth, we also know from recent experience that lower marginal rates on income taxes, and lower rates on capital gains and dividends, aren't necessarily wealth producers. The Bush years, which had lower marginal rates and capital gains taxes, were a fiasco. In fact, if you tally up the vast destruction of wealth in the late Bush years—caused by foolish hedge funds, investment banks, and other financial services companies, it seems like the wealthy have in fact been waging war on one another.

Finally, there has been a near total absence of discussion of what higher rates will mean in the real world. Say you're a CNBC anchor, or a Washington Post columnist with a seat at the Council on Foreign Relations, or a dentist, and you managed to cobble together $350,000 a year in income. You're doing quite well. If you subtract deductions for state and property taxes, mortgage interest and charitable deductions, and other deductions, the amount on which tax rates are calculated might total $300,000. What would happen if the marginal rate on the portion of your income above $250,000 were to rise from 33 percent to 36 percent? Under the old regime, you'd pay $16,500 in federal taxes on that amount. Under the new one, you'd pay $18,000. The difference is $1,500 per year, or $4.10 per day. Obviously, the numbers rise as you make more. But is $4.10 a day bleeding the rich, a war on the wealthy, a killer of innovation and enterprise? That dentist eager to slash her income from $320,000 to $250,000 would avoid the pain of paying an extra $2,100 in federal taxes. But she'd also deprive herself of an additional $70,000 in income!

Can she, or we, really be that stupid?









Is Obama Declaring War on the Wealthy? | Newsweek Voices - Daniel Gross | Newsweek.com (http://www.newsweek.com/id/187933)

Nickdfresh
03-10-2009, 02:13 PM
Obama is only seeking to return the tax rates (for the wealthy) to those of 1993...

And if tax cuts are great for the economy, how come we're in a recession after years of them?

Seshmeister
03-10-2009, 04:03 PM
To hear conservatives tell it, you'd think mobs of shiftless welfare moms were marauding through the streets of Greenwich and Palm Springs, lynching bankers and hedge-fund managers, stringing up shopkeepers, and herding lawyers into internment camps.


Why drag shopkeepers into this?

And internment is too good for lawyers.

swage33
03-10-2009, 09:40 PM
jesus, here we go....punish the rich. blame bush. rush just may get his wish....liberal economic philosophy does not work in the way we would like...it works in the way they would like. Liberals would love to expand the dependant welfare class so as to secure more votes. Punish the rich....they didn't earn it, anyway...fuck them. By the way, if any of you middle class people hope to be one of them someday, forget it! We're gonna make that little dream impossible. Give up your hopes and dreams....discourage your children....just lay down and take advantage of our programs....we'll see you in 2012.

Combat Ready
03-10-2009, 10:03 PM
jesus, here we go....punish the rich. blame bush. rush just may get his wish....liberal economic philosophy does not work in the way we would like...it works in the way they would like. Liberals would love to expand the dependant welfare class so as to secure more votes. Punish the rich....they didn't earn it, anyway...fuck them. By the way, if any of you middle class people hope to be one of them someday, forget it! We're gonna make that little dream impossible. Give up your hopes and dreams....discourage your children....just lay down and take advantage of our programs....we'll see you in 2012.

Agreed...To a point anyway. My take is that you just can't blame the libs. Bush DID expand government at an alarming clip...In the name of being a conservative no less. So yeah...blame Bush and the republicans for that, they deserve it.

The libs are what they are and they DO believe in bigger government. They were elected without trying to hide the fact. At least they were honest about it.

Hey--the voters want cradle to grave government care...At least for now. Gotta' face the facts swage.

Big Train
03-11-2009, 12:07 AM
So if expanding the government to it's current level was a horrible financial decision, Obama expanding it even more is better? How much will it take for Pelosi to keep her military operated G5 gassed and ready for memorial weekend?

The 3% tax isn't much, unless you make a lot of money. If you make millions yearly, it is a huge bite. Many small to medium size businesses fit that mold. That forces them to reconsider their tax and staffing implications over that lil old 3%, which will hurt more than help.

While things were improving in 1993, they weren't that rosy. Clinton himself says he overdid it with taxes.

Seshmeister
03-11-2009, 12:18 AM
There are the odd innovators or software types but most of the very wealthy tend to have made their money in property development.

So basically they are the people that got rich due to all these fuck ups by banks and who we are all bailing out now.

If it's possible to 'declare war' on them without hurting proper business then you should.

Seshmeister
03-11-2009, 12:18 AM
There are the odd innovators or software types but most of the very wealthy tend to have made their money in property development.

So basically they are the people that got rich due to all these fuck ups by banks and who we are all bailing out now.

If it's possible to 'declare war' on them without hurting proper business then you should.

Seshmeister
03-11-2009, 12:22 AM
Look at this shit. This is the problem.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqrguz/housingbubble/united_states.png

Big Train
03-12-2009, 03:10 AM
The Forbes 400 might tend to disagree with you Sesh, at least in this country. From this list anyway, you've got two pure real estate people.

The 400 Richest Americans sorted by Source - Forbes.com (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/54/400list08_The-400-Richest-Americans_SourceOfWealth_6.html)

While many have diversified their portfolio with real estate, the majority started or own vehicles which will all pay that lil ol' 3% , as well as individually.

Nickdfresh
03-12-2009, 04:27 AM
Um, most of them were wealthy or form upper middle class backgrounds to begin with...

Good luck with "the rich shouldn't pay taxes" theme though...

But many rich, like Buffet, would think this a retarded premise....

Warham
03-12-2009, 07:35 AM
Look at this shit. This is the problem.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeqrguz/housingbubble/united_states.png

I partially agree with you.

Big Train
03-13-2009, 12:46 AM
I don't think anyone is saying that they shouldn't pay taxes. Just making the distinction that the 3% is a lot of cash. Those paying the 3% also aren't all money bags type people either. Small to medium sized business will take a large hit too.

Maybe they can agree to pay the extra three points if the workers will throw in an paid extra 8 hours? "everyone has to sacrifice" so says the leader.

GAR
03-13-2009, 06:06 PM
So basically they are the people that got rich due to all these fuck ups by banks and who we are all bailing out now.

When I moved in '04, the chink landlord I rented from jacked the rent $250 because of the housing bubble jacking all real estate up.

Guess what? All those high rents don't come down by themselves. And the people across the street who moved before we did were paying $1100 for a 2 br, the fucking clown owner who barely slapped a little flat white on the walls and steamed the carpets advertised it for $1450.. yes he got it, but I drove by last month and both places have For Rent signs in the window.

Fuck You Obama. :fufu:

hideyoursheep
03-14-2009, 04:02 AM
When I moved in '04, the chink landlord I rented from jacked the rent $250 because of the housing bubble jacking all real estate up.

Guess what? All those high rents don't come down by themselves. And the people across the street who moved before we did were paying $1100 for a 2 br, the fucking clown owner who barely slapped a little flat white on the walls and steamed the carpets advertised it for $1450.. yes he got it, but I drove by last month and both places have For Rent signs in the window.

Fuck You Obama. :fufu:


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hideyoursheep
03-14-2009, 04:12 AM
If anything GARgoyle, your landlord should have lowered the rent, as apparently, people like you were handed loans they couldn't re-pay from mortgage companies who are currently stinging from the many defaults, hence our current state of the economy.
Why rent when you can own?

In other words,




you were too fuckin stoopid to get a freebie!
:D