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Nickdfresh
03-12-2009, 09:04 AM
Report: Health care 'value gap' hurts U.S.
Americans spend a lot more than top countries, but aren’t as healthy
The Associated Press
Thurs., March. 12, 2009

WASHINGTON - If the global economy were a 100-yard dash, the U.S. would start 23 yards behind its closest competitors because of health care that costs too much and delivers too little, a business group says in a report to be released Thursday.

The report from the Business Roundtable, which represents CEOs of major companies, says America's health care system has become a liability in a global economy.

Concern about high U.S. costs has existed for years, and business executives — whose companies provide health coverage for workers — have long called for getting costs under control. Now President Barack Obama says the costs have become unsustainable and the system must be overhauled.

Americans spend $2.4 trillion a year on health care. The Business Roundtable report says Americans in 2006 spent $1,928 per capita on health care, at least two-and-a-half times more per person than any other advanced country.

In a different twist, the report took those costs and factored benefits into the equation.

It compares statistics on life expectancy, death rates and even cholesterol readings and blood pressures. The health measures are factored together with costs into a 100-point "value" scale. That hasn't been done before, the authors said.

The results are not encouraging.

The United States is 23 points behind five leading economic competitors: Canada, Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and France. The five nations cover all their citizens, and though their systems differ, in each country the government plays a much larger role than in the U.S.

The cost-benefit disparity is even wider — 46 points — when the U.S. is compared with emerging competitors: China, Brazil and India.

"What's important is that we measure and compare actual value — not just how much we spend on health care, but the performance we get back in return," said H. Edward Hanway, CEO of the insurance company Cigna. "That's what this study does, and the results are quite eye-opening."

Higher U.S. spending funnels away resources that could be invested elsewhere in the economy, but fails to deliver a healthier work force, the report said.

"Spending more would not be a problem if our health scores were proportionately higher," Dr. Arnold Milstein, one of the authors of the study, said in an interview. "But what this study shows is that the U.S. is not getting higher levels of health and quality of care."

Other countries spend less on health care and their workers are relatively healthier, the report said.

Medical costs have long been a problem for U.S. auto companies. General Motors spends more per car on health care than it does on steel. But as more American companies face global competition, the "value gap" is being felt by more CEOs — and their hard pressed workers.

One thing the report does not do is endorse the same solution that countries like Canada have adopted: a government-run health care system.

The CEOs of the Business Roundtable believe health care for U.S. workers and their families should stay in private hands, with a government-funded safety net for low-income people.

© 2009 The Associated Press on Google. (URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29641091/) All rights reserved.

Seshmeister
03-12-2009, 10:19 AM
The system just doesn't work.

sadaist
03-12-2009, 10:40 AM
We already have free health care. Don't speak English and don't bring any identification = covered.

Nickdfresh
03-12-2009, 08:08 PM
We already have free health care. Don't speak English and don't bring any identification = covered.


Stay on topic. And with the guns we're exporting, and all the drugs imported, from Mexico, of course we're going to have to patch them up!

Kristy
03-12-2009, 08:42 PM
Yes, good 'ol America where we have the best medical facilities in the world yet run by the most dumbfucked morons on the planet. I had the unfortunate experience of going through of what most Americas fear most: being brought to an Emergency Room with no heath insurance. And I'm not lying when I say not one person on staff that night asked me where it hurts as much as they did asking me who my carrier was. When I informed them I had no insurance they soon changed their tune and treated me like shit by making me wait and wait, denying me proper care by seeing other patients who came in after me (with lessor emergencies from what I could gather that night).

Before long they brought in a "Specialist" who saw me for oh, I'd about 27 seconds before turning to a nurse and saying "I don't know why you called me here for...I don't need to see her..." Six days later I got a bill from his contract physician service (Care Point Physicians) for the tune of $386. In fact my entire bill for a 2 hour visit was in the neighborhood of $2,300 and yet I was never properly treated. Most of the bill I haggled down to $400 and applied to charitable organizations to help pay for some of the cost and threatened legal action against the specialist for his over billing but in all the whole fucking system can collapse overnight and I could care less.

Certainly it was a learning experience. For if I'm ever in a health emergency again I'm just going to compitualte for death - at least that's still affordable in this county. But I'm sure there's a Bill on Obama's desk bringing an end to that as well.

FORD
03-12-2009, 09:01 PM
The United States is 23 points behind five leading economic competitors: Canada, Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and France. The five nations cover all their citizens, and though their systems differ, in each country the government plays a much larger role than in the U.S.

I believe all of the above health care systems were deployed in the years following World War II. In fact, President Truman tried to start one in the US at that time also. In fact the system set up in Japan and Germany - by the post war occupational government - was similar to what Truman had in mind. He even had it funded in the budget.

As you might have guessed, a Repuke congress got in the way. Now look at us.

Combat Ready
03-12-2009, 09:11 PM
I’m no medical expert and am not sure of how US citizens stack up with the rest of the world when it comes to prescription drugs. The amount of advertising for prescripts is staggering. How many people are going to the doctor to request the latest thing seen on TV? Lots of side effects could be making overall health worse?

Heck--if you can't brew it or grow it....Stay away.

Here are some examples: (sorry for the extra long post)

Prescription Drug TV Ads, which have been around for some time -Actonel.Avodart.Boniva.Celebrex.Cialis.Coreg. Crestor.Detrol.Ditropan.Enbrel.Fosamax.Humira. Levitra.Lunesta.Nexium.Paxil.Plavix.Premarin. Prilosec.Procrit.Strattera.Valtrex.Vesicare.Viagra . Vioxx.Vytorin.Wellbutrin.Zelnorm.Zocor.Zyprexa.
RED = Ads which have been removed due to SERIOUS SIDE EFFECTS, and/or FDA action.Recent Prescription Drug TV AdsMarketingBrand Name GenericChemical Name Purpose Manufacturer
AbilifyAlavertAmitizaAriceptCaduetCymbaltaEffexorE nablexEvistaFlowmax aripiprazoleloratadinelubiprostonedonepezil HClnorvasc, lipitorduloxetinevenlafaxine HCldarifenacinraloxifene HCltamsulosin HCl antipsychoticallergyconstipationAlzheimer'sBP, cholesteroldepres., paindepressionoveract. bladderosteoporosisBPH Bristol-Myers SquibbWyethSucampoPfizerPfizerEli LillyWyethNovartisEli LillyBoehringer Ingelheim
GardasilImitrexJanuviaLyricaMirapexMirena HPV vaccinesumatriptansitagliptinpregabalinpramipexole levonorgestrel cervical cancermigrainediabetesseizures, painRLSbirth control MerckGlaxoSmithKlineMerckPfizerBoehringer IngelheimBerlex
NasonexNeulastaOrenciaReclastRequipRestasisRozerem SingulairSpirivaSymbicort mometasone furoatepegfilgrastimabataceptzoledronic acidropinirole Hclcyclosporineramelteonmontelukasttiotropium bromidebudesonide nasal allergiescancerarthritisosteoporosisRLSdry eyessleep aidallergybronchospasmasthma Schering PloughAmgenBristol-Myers SquibbNovartisGlaxoSmithKlineAllerganTakedaMerckBo ehringer IngelheimAstraZeneca
How many of the latest TV ads listed above will eventually be pulled due to adverse side effects? About 1 out of 3, as were pulled in the older list at the top? You will find out, when the ongoing, de facto, long term drug safety tests are completed ON YOU! You will be protected, just as soon as enough other hapless individuals have suffered devastating ill effects. It does not pay to be an "early adopter" in this business. The FDA works the same way as the FAA - only tragedy evokes action.
100 160 150 180

Brand Name (generic name) Side Effects Manufacturer Prescribed For
Actonel(risedronate sodium) Brief:Chest pain, digestive problems OFFICIAL:"Patient InformationActonel and Actonel with Calcium are prescription medications to treat and prevent postmenopausal osteoporosis. You should not take Actonel with Calcium if you are allergic to any of the ingredients, if you have low blood calcium (hypocalcemia), have kidneys that work poorly, or cannot stand or sit upright for 30 minutes. Do not take Calcium tablets if you have high blood calcium (hypercalcemia). If you have had kidney stones please tell your doctor before you start taking Actonel with Calcium. Stop taking Actonel with Calcium and tell your doctor if you experience difficult or painful swallowing, chest pain, or severe or continuing heartburn, as these may be signs of serious upper digestive problems. Follow dosing instructions carefully to lower the chance of these events occurring. Side effects for Actonel® (risedronate sodium tablets) are generally mild or moderate and may include back, muscle, bone or joint pain, stomach pain or upset, or constipation. Contact your doctor if symptoms are severe. Calcium may cause constipation, flatulence, nausea, abdominal pain, and bloating. Tell your health care providers, including your dentist, about all the medicines that you take. See Patient Information for information about Actonel with Calcium. If you have questions, please talk to your doctor." Aventis(Proctor and Gamble) osteoporosis
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Avodart(dutasteride) Brief:Women must NOT EVEN TOUCH this poison due to birth defects in unborn male children, plus liver problems, sexual problems. OFFICIAL:"Important Information About AVODART® (dutasteride):AVODART is used to treat urinary symptoms of enlarging prostate. Only your doctor can tell if your symptoms are from an enlarged prostate and not a more serious condition, such as prostate cancer. See your doctor for regular exams. Women and children should not take AVODART. Women who are or could become pregnant should not handle AVODART due to the potential risk of a specific birth defect. Do not donate blood until at least 6 months after stopping AVODART. Tell your doctor if you have liver disease. AVODART may not be right for you. Possible side effects, including sexual side effects and swelling or tenderness of the breast, occur infrequently." Glaxo Smith Kline enlarged prostate
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Boniva(ibandronate sodium) Brief:Chest pain, severe heartburn, severe bone pain OFFICIAL: "Important Safety InformationBONIVA is a prescription medicine for the management of postmenopausal osteoporosis. You should not take BONIVA if you have low blood calcium, cannot sit or stand for at least 60 minutes, have severe kidney disease, or are allergic to BONIVA. Stop taking BONIVA and tell your healthcare provider if you experience difficult or painful swallowing, chest pain, or severe or continuing heartburn, as these may be signs of serious upper digestive problems. Follow the once-monthly BONIVA dosing instructions carefully to lower the chance of these events occurring. Side effects are generally mild or moderate and may include diarrhea, pain in the arms or legs, or upset stomach. If you develop severe bone, joint, and/or muscle pain, contact your healthcare provider. Your healthcare provider may also recommend a calcium and vitamin D supplement." RocheGlaxo Smith Kline osteoporosis
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Celebrex(celecoxib) BRIEF:Death, gastrointestinal hemorrhages, stomach bleeding, cardiovascular problems, kidney and liver damage, ulcers, indigestion, diarrhea, abdominal pain, allergic reactionsOFFICIAL:"Important Safety InformationPrescription CELEBREX is not for everyone. People with aspirin-sensitive asthma or allergic reactions due to aspirin or other arthritis medicines or certain drugs called sulfonamides should not take CELEBREX. IN rare cases, serious stomach problems such as bleeding can occur without warning. The most common side effects in clinical trials wer indigestion, diarrhea, and abdominal pain. CELEBREX should not be taken in late pregnancy. Tell your doctor if you have liver or kidney problems. If you think you are having an allergic reaction, or if you have other severe or unusual symptoms while taking CELEBREX, call your doctor, or other healthcare professional immediately." Pfizer arthritisand "off-label" uses
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Cialis(tadalafil) BRIEF:Permanent, partial blindness - (story released 5-27-05)OFFICIAL:"CIALIS is available by prescription only and is not for everyone. If you take nitrates, often used for chest pain (angina) do not take CIALIS. Such combinations could cause a sudden, unsafe drop in blood pressure. Don't drink alcohol in excess (to a level of intoxication) with CIALIS. This combination may increase your chances of getting dizzy or lowering your blood pressure. CIALIS does not protect a man or his partner from sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.The most common side effects with Cialis were headache and upset stomach. Backache or muscle ache were also reported, sometimes with delayed onset. Most men weren't bothered by the side effects enough to stop taking CIALIS. As with any prescription ED tablet, in the rare event of an erection lasting more than 4 hours (priapism), seek immediate medical attention to avoid long-term injury. Discuss your medical conditions and medications, including alpha blockers prescribed for prostate problems or high blood pressure, with your doctor to ensure CIALIS is right for you and that you are healthy enough for sexual activity." Eli Lilly ED - erectile dysfunction
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Coreg(carvedilol) BRIEF:OFFICIAL:"Important Safety InformationIt is important for patients to take their medicine every day as directed by their doctors or health care providers. Patients taking COREG should avoid stopping therapy abruptly. With certain beta-blocking agents, stopping therapy abruptly has led to chest pain and, in some cases, heart attack. If their doctor decides that they should stop taking COREG, their doctor or health care provider may slowly reduce their doses over a period of time before stopping it completely. Some common side effects associated with COREG include shortness of breath, a slow heartbeat, weight gain, fatigue, hypotension, dizziness, or faintness. People taking COREG who have any of these symptoms should call their doctor. Additionally, if patients experience fatigue or dizziness, they should sit or lie down and avoid driving or hazardous tasks. Beta-blockers may mask the symptoms of low blood sugar or alter blood sugar levels. People with diabetes should report any changes in blood sugar levels to their physician. Contact lens wearers may produce fewer tears or have dry eyes. As with any medicine, patients taking COREG should also first tell their doctor what other medications they are taking. As with any medicine, there are some people who should not take COREG. The people who should not take COREG include those with severe heart failure who are hospitalized in the intensive care unit. Also, people who require certain intravenous medications that help support their circulation (inotropic medications) should not receive COREG. Other people who should not take COREG are those who are prone to asthma or other breathing problems, those with a very slow heartbeat or heart that skips a beat (irregular heartbeat), and those with liver problems." Glaxo Smith Kline hypertensionheart attackheart failure
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Crestor(rosuvastatin) BRIEF: Unexplained muscle pain, weakness, liver problems, constipation, weakness, abdominal pain, nausea, food interactions, drug interactionsOFFICIAL:"Important safety information about CRESTORCRESTOR is prescribed along with diet for lowering cholesterol and is not for everyone, including people with liver disease, and women who are nursing, pregnant or may become pregnant. Tell your doctor promptly if you experience unexplained muscle pain or weakness, as they may be a sign of serious side effects. Be sure to tell your doctor about other medications you are taking, including cyclosporine, warfarin, gemfibrozil, or antacids. Simple blood tests are needed to check for liver problems before and 12 weeks after start of therapy or change of dose, and periodically, eg, semiannually thereafter. Side effects occur infrequently and include muscle aches, constipation, weakness, abdominal pain, and nausea. They are usually mild and tend to go away. CRESTOR has not been shown to prevent heart disease or heart attacks." Astrazeneca statinand "off-label" uses
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Detrol(tolterodine tartrate) BRIEF:OFFICIAL:"What are possible side effects of DETROL LA?The most common side effects with DETROL LA are:• dry mouth• constipation• headache• stomach pain Medicines like DETROL LA can cause blurred vision, dizziness, or drowsiness.Use caution while driving or doing other dangerous activities until you know how DETROL LA affectsThese are not all the side effects with DETROL LA. For a complete list, ask your doctor or pharmacist." Pfizer bladder control
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Ditropan(oxybutynin chloride) BRIEF:OFFICIAL:"Important Safety InformationDITROPAN XL is contraindicated in patients with urinary retention, gastric retention, or uncontrolled narrow-angle glaucoma, and in patients who are at risk for these conditions. DITROPAN XL is also contraindicated in patients who have demonstrated hypersensitivity to the drug substance or other components of the product.The incidence of side effects reported more commonly by patients treated with DITROPAN XL in clinical trials using 10 mg daily compared to those permitting doses of 5 to 30 mg daily was: dry mouth (29% vs 61%); constipation (7% vs 13%); drowsiness (2% vs 12%); headache (6% vs 10%); nausea (2% vs 9%); diarrhea (7% vs 9%); blurred vision (1% vs 8%) and dizziness (4% vs 6%).Heat prostration (fever and heat stroke due to decreased sweating) can occur when anticholinergics such as oxybutynin are administered in hot weather.Tablets must be swallowed whole with the aid of liquids, and must not be chewed, divided, or crushed." Ortho-McNeil bladder controland "off-label" uses
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Enbrel(etanercept) BRIEF:Serious infections, fatal blood disorders, cancerOFFICIAL:"Important Product Information. . . . . . . Since the product was first introduced, the following have been reported in patients using ENBREL: * Serious Infections* Many occurred in people prone to infection, such as those with advanced or poorly controlled diabetes* Some serious infections were fatal* Rare cases of tuberculosis* What to do/Not do * Do not start ENBREL if you have an infection or are allergic to ENBREL or its components * Tell your doctor if you are prone to infection* Stop ENBREL if a serious infection occurs* Contact your doctor if you have questions about ENBREL or develop an infection * Tell your doctor if you have ever been treated for heart failure * Serious nervous system disorders, such as multiple sclerosis, seizures, or inflammation of the nerves of the eyes. * Tell your doctor if you have ever had any of these disorders or if you develop them after starting ENBREL. * Rare reports of serious blood disorders (some fatal). * Contact your doctor immediately if you develop symptoms such as persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness * In medical studies of all TNF inhibitors, a higher rate of lymphoma (a type of cancer) was seen compared to the general population, however, the risk of lymphoma may be up to several-fold higher in RA and psoriasis patients.* The role of TNF inhibitors in the development of lymphoma is unknown.* The incidence of other cancers has not increased with exposure to ENBREL and is similar to the expected rate. * ENBREL can also cause injection site reactions. * In a medical study of patients with JRA, infections, headaches, abdominal pain, vomiting, and nausea occurred more frequently than in adults.* The kinds of infections reported were generally mild and similar to those usually seen in children * Other serious adverse reactions were reported rarely, including serious infections (2%) and depression/personality disorder (1%). . . " ImmunexWyethAmgen arthritisand "off-label" uses
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Fosamax(alendronate sodium) BRIEF:Heartburn, difficulty swallowingOFFICIAL:"Selected Cautionary Information About FOSAMAX and FOSAMAX PLUS D You should not use FOSAMAX or FOSAMAX PLUS D if you have certain disorders of the esophagus (the tube connecting the mouth with the stomach), are not able to stand or sit upright for 30 minutes, have severe kidney disease, low blood calcium, or are allergic to FOSAMAX or FOSAMAX PLUS D. Before use, talk to your doctor if you have or have had stomach or digestive problems or problems with swallowing. You should tell your doctor about all medicines you are taking, including prescription and nonprescription medicines, vitamins, and herbal supplements. In addition, for FOSAMAX PLUS D, you should talk to your doctor if you have conditions that may cause an overproduction of vitamin D (eg, sarcoidosis, leukemia, lymphoma). Stop taking FOSAMAX or FOSAMAX PLUS D and call your doctor right away if you develop new or worsening heartburn, difficult or painful swallowing, or chest pain because these may be signs of serious upper digestive problems, which can include irritation, inflammation, or ulceration of the esophagus. (See the Patient Product Information for more details.) If you develop severe bone, joint, and/or muscle pain at any time, contact your doctor. Digestive side effects in studies were generally mild and included stomach pain, indigestion/heartburn, or nausea." Merck osteoporosis
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Humira(adalimumab) BRIEF:Upper Respiratory infections, sinus infectionsOFFICIAL:"Important Safety InformationDo not start taking HURIMA®:* if you are allergic to the drug or anything in it. You should not start taking HUMIRA:* If you have any type of infection. An infection can be in one part of your body, such as an open sore, or it can be an illness such as the flu. Tell your doctor:* if you have had any infection in the past that keeps coming back, or if you have any problems that increase the risk of infections,* if you feel any numbness or tingling,* if you have ever had a disease that affects your nervous system such as multiple sclerosis, or* if you have ever been treated for heart failure. Before you take HUMIRA, your doctor should test you for tuberculosis, or TB. Tell your doctor if you have ever had TB, or been near someone who had TB.Signs of TB include:* a dry cough that doesn't go away* weight loss* fever* night sweats If these or any other signs of infection appear after you take HUMIRA, tell your doctor right away. Also tell your doctor:* about all the medicines you are taking or considering taking &endash; the combination of HUMIRA and Kineret (anakinra) is not recommended* before you receive any vaccines* if you are pregnant, become pregnant or plan to become pregnant Once you start taking HUMIRA, tell your doctor right away or seek emergency care immediately if you have an allergic reaction such as a bad rash, swollen face, or trouble breathing. Tell your doctor right away if you have signs of a blood disorder such as persistent fever, bruising, bleeding or paleness. There have been rare cases of severe allergic reactions after taking HUMIRA. There have also been rare cases of serious and sometimes fatal infections. Lymphoma, rare cases of nervous system disorders, and serious blood disorders have occurred in patients taking drugs called TNF blockers such as HUMIRA.The most common side effects of HUMIRA are:* injection site reactions * upper respiratory and sinus infections* headache* rash* injection site pain" Abbott rheumatoid arthritis
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Levitra(vardenafil HCL) BRIEF:Permanent, partial blindness - (story released 5-27-05)Drug interactions, headache, flushingOFFICIAL:"Men taking nitrate drugs, often used to control chest pain (also known as angina), should not take LEVITRA. Men who use alpha blockers, sometimes prescribed for high blood pressure or prostate problems, also should not take LEVITRA. Such combinations could cause blood pressure to drop to an unsafe level. You should not take LEVITRA if your doctor determines that sexual activity poses a health risk for you. Men who experience an erection for more than four hours should seek immediate medical attention. LEVITRA does not protect against sexually transmitted diseases. The starting dose of LEVITRA is 10 mg taken no more than once per day. Your doctor will decide the dose that is right for you. In patients taking certain medications such as ritonavir, indinavir, ketoconazole, itraconazole, and erythromycin, lower doses of LEVITRA are recommended, and time between doses of LEVITRA may need to be extended. In clinical trials, the most commonly reported side effects were headache, flushing, and stuffy or runny nose. LEVITRA is available in 2.5 mg, 5 mg, 10 mg, and 20 mg tablets." BayerGlaxo Smith KlineSchering Plough ED - erectile dysfunction
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Lunesta(eszopiclone)(estorra) BRIEF:Morning drowsiness, dependency, head ache, dizzinessOFFICIAL:"Important Safety Information:Lunesta should only be taken immediately before bedtime. Be sure you have at least eight hours to devote to sleep before becoming active. You should not engage in any activity after taking Lunesta that requires complete alertness, such as driving a car or operating machinery. You should use extreme care when engaging in these activities the morning after taking Lunesta. Do not use alcohol while taking any sleep medicine. All sleep medicines carry some risk of dependency. Do not use sleep medicines for extended periods without first talking to your doctor. Side effects may include unpleasant taste, headache, drowsiness and dizziness." Sepracor sleeping pill
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Nexium(esomeprazole magnesium) BRIEF:Headache, diarrhea, abdominal painOFFICIAL:"Talk to your doctor or healthcare professional to see if NEXIUM is right for you. Most erosions heal in 4 to 8 weeks with NEXIUM. The most common side effects of NEXIUM are headache, diarrhea, and abdominal pain. Symptom relief does not rule out serious stomach conditions. Please read the important Product Information about NEXIUM and discuss it with your healthcare professional. " Astrazenica indigestion(acid reflux disease)

Brand Name (generic name) Side Effects Manufacturer Prescribed For
Paxil(paroxetine) BRIEF:SuicideOFFICIAL:"WHAT DO I NEED TO KNOW ABOUT ANTIDEPRESSANTS AND POSSIBLE SUICIDAL BEHAVIOR OR THINKING?Paxil is approved only for adults 18 years and over. There are benefits and risks when using antidepressants. Depression and other illnesses can lead to suicidal thoughts or behavior whether or not you are taking antidepressants. In some children and teens, antidepressants increase suicidal thoughts or actions. You and your family should watch closely and call the doctor right away, if you have worsening depression, thoughts of suicide, or sudden or severe changes in mood or behavior (for example feeling anxious, agitated, panicky, irritable, hostile, aggressive, impulsive, severely restless, hyperactive, overly excited, or not being able to sleep), especially at the beginning of treatment or after any change in dose. CAN I TAKE PAXIL® (paroxetine HCl) WITH OTHER MEDICATIONS?In most cases, you can take Paxil with other medications. However, medicines known as monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs), thioridazine or pimozide should not be taken while you are taking Paxil. There may be other medicines that don't react well wih Paxil, so be sure to tell your healthcare provider about any prescription and over-the-counter medications that you are taking. DOES PAXIL CAUSE SIDE EFFECTS?As with any prescription medication, Paxil may cause some side effects, which are usually mild to moderate and may fade or disappear completely over time. A common side effect of Paxil is nausea, which may be lessened by taking it with food. Other side effects may include infection, diarrhea, dry mouth, constipation, decreased appetite, sleepiness, dizziness, sexual side effects, nervousness, tremor, yawning, sweating, weakness or insomnia. If you should experience any side effects, be sure to report them to your healthcare provider as soon as possible and follow his/her advice." Glaxo Smith Kline depression
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Plavix(clopidogrel bisulfate) BRIEF:Excessive bleeding (sometimes fatal), skin disordersan allergic reaction (difficulty breathing; closing of the throat; swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; or hives);bloody (or black) vomit or stools;severe headache, confusion, or dizziness;unexplained bruising or bleeding; or bleeding noseupset stomach;diarrhea or constipation;headache or dizzinessmany, many, drug interactionsOFFICIAL:There is NO "Important Safety Information" on the Plavix website. For good reason. Bristol-Myers Squibb blood thinner
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Premarin(conjugated estrogens tablets) BRIEF:Vaginitis, leg cramps, painful menstruationOFFICIAL:" . . . PREMARIN and PREMPRO should be used at the lowest effective dose and for the shortest duration consistent with your treatment goals and risks. If using PREMARIN or PREMPRO only to treat your symptoms of vaginal dryness, consider topical therapies first. If you do not have symptoms, non-estrogen treatments should be carefully considered before taking PREMARIN and PREMPRO solely for the prevention of postmenopausal osteoporosis.In a clinical trial, the most commonly reported (>5%) side effects that occurred more frequently with PREMARIN were vaginitis due to yeast or other causes, vaginal bleeding, painful menstruation, and leg cramps.In a clinical trial, the most commonly reported (>5%) side effects that occurred more frequently with PREMPRO 0.45 mg/1.5 mg and PREMPRO 0.625 mg/2.5 mg were breast pain/enlargement, vaginitis due to yeast or other causes, leg cramps, vaginal spotting/bleeding, and painful menstruation. In a clinical trial, there was no difference in the commonly reported (>5%) side effects for women taking PREMPRO 0.3 mg/1.5 mg compared to those taking placebo.The most commonly reported side effects of PREMARIN Vaginal Cream include vaginal discomfort or pain, breast pain, vaginitis, and itching. . . ." Wyeth menopause
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Prilosec(omeprazole) BRIEF:Allergic reaction, drug interactions, headacheOFFICIAL:The Prilosec website won't say, but the FDA DOES: headache, diarrhea, constipation, upset stomach, vomiting, stomach pain, cough, cold symptoms, dizziness, rash Proctor and Gamble heartburn
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Procrit(erythropoietin)(Epoetin Alfa) BRIEF:Hypertension, increased death rate, seizures, thrombosisOFFICIAL:(presented as a graphic only on the Procrit website, so search engines CANNOT read it)The following is from the National Institute of Health -"What side effects can this medication cause? Epoetin may cause side effects. Tell your doctor if any of these symptoms are severe or do not go away: * redness, swelling, stinging, bruising, itching, or a lump at the place where you injected epoetin * headache* joint or muscle pain* upset stomach* vomiting* indigestion or "heartburn"* stomach pain* diarrhea* constipation* runny nose* sneezing* difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep Some side effects can be serious. The following symptoms are uncommon, but if you experience any of them, call your doctor immediately:* leg pain or swelling* shortness of breath* coughing up blood* cough that doesn't go away* blue-grey color or darkening around mouth or nails* dizziness* fainting* blurred vision* temporary confusion* slow or difficult speech* loss of memory or ability to concentrate* hallucinating (seeing things or hearing voices that do not exist)* extreme tiredness* seizures* weakness, numbness, heaviness, or tingling in arms or legs* floppiness or loss of muscle tone* lack of energy* increased or rapid heart beat* irregular heart beat* chest pain or tightness* excessive sweating* fever, sore throat, chills, cough, and other signs of infection* rash* hives* itching* swelling of the face, throat, tongue, lips, eyes, hands, feet, or ankles* wheezing* difficulty breathing or swallowing* hoarseness You should know epoetin and other erythropoiesis stimulating medications may increase the risk of cardiovascular problems, including death, especially in patients with heart disease. It is important for your doctor to check your hemoglobin while you are taking epoetin. If your hemoglobin rises too high or too fast while using epoetin, serious problems may occur, including edema (swelling of the hands, feet, ankles, or lower legs), heart attack or heart failure, high blood pressure, seizures, stroke, and blood clots in your heart, legs, or lungs. This increased risk for high blood pressure, seizures, and blood clots reported with epoetin appears to be less in people with HIV using zidovudine and epoetin, and less in people with cancer using epoetin, than in people with serious kidney disease using epoetin. Talk to your doctor about the risks of using epoetin. Epoetin may cause other side effects. Call your doctor if you have any unusual problems while taking this medication." Ortho Biotech anemia
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Strattera(atomoxetine HCL) BRIEF:Jaundice, liver damageLife-thretening if taken within 2 weeks of taking a MAO inhibitor.OFFICIAL:"Safety Information* You should not take Strattera at the same time or within two weeks of taking an MAOI, or if you have narrow-angle glaucoma. Tell your doctor if you have a history of high or low blood pressure, increased heart rate, or any heart or blood vessel disease.* Some children may lose weight when starting treatment with Strattera. As with all ADHD medications, growth should be monitored during treatment.* In rare cases, Strattera can cause liver damage. Call your doctor right away if they have itching, dark urine, yellow skin/eyes, upper right-side abdominal tenderness, or unexplained "flu-like" symptoms.* In children, the most common side effects were upset stomach, decreased appetite, nausea or vomiting, tiredness, dizziness, and mood swings. In adults, the most common side effects were constipation, dry mouth, nausea, decreased appetite, dizziness, problems sleeping, sexual side effects, problems urinating, and menstrual cramps. Most people in clinical studies who experienced side effects were not bothered enough to stop using Strattera.* Strattera has not been tested in children under 6 years of age or in elderly adults." Eli Lilly ADHD(attention deficit hyperactivity disorder)
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Valtrex(valacyclovir HCL) BRIEF:Headache, nausea, abdominal pain, constipation, allergic reaction, dizziness, tremors, compromised immune system, drug interactionsOFFICIAL:"Important Information About VALTREXThere is no cure for herpes. Even with treatment, it may be possible to spread herpes.When daily VALTREX is used to reduce the risk of spreading genital herpes, safer sex practices should be used.It is not known if VALTREX reduces the risk of spreading genital herpes in same sex couples.While taking VALTREX for cold sores, you should not exceed one day of treatment, two doses taken 12 hours apart.VALTREX is intended for healthy adults and is available by prescription only. To avoid a potentially serious complication, tell your doctor if your immune system is not normal because of advanced HIV disease, bone marrow or kidney transplant. Common side effects are headache, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and dizziness." Glaxo Smith Kline herpes
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Vesicare(solifenacin succinate) BRIEF:Abdominal pain, constipation, dry mouthOFFICIAL:"Important Information about VESIcareVESIcare is for urgency, frequency, and leakage (overactive bladder). VESIcare is not for everyone. If you have certain types of stomach, urinary, or glaucoma problems, do not take VESIcare. While taking VESIcare, if you experience a serious allergic reaction, severe abdominal pain, or become constipated for three or more days, tell your doctor right away. In studies, common side effects were dry mouth, constipation, blurred vision and indigestion." Glaxo Smith Kline leaky pipes
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Viagra(sildenafil citrate) BRIEF:Permanent, partial blindness - (story released 5-27-05)OFFICIAL:"We know that no medicine is for everyone. If you use nitrate drugs, often used for chest pain (known as angina), don't take VIAGRA. Taking these drugs at the same time could cause your blood pressure to drop to an unsafe level. Talk with your doctor first. Make sure you are healthy enough to have sex. If you have chest pain, nausea, or other discomforts during sex, seek medical help right away. Although erections lasting for more than four hours may occur rarely with all ED treatments in this drug class, it is important to seek immediate medical attention. Erections lasting more than six hours can result in long-term loss of potency.The most common side effects of VIAGRA are headache, facial flushing, and upset stomach. Less common are bluish or blurred vision, or being sensitive to light. These may occur for a short time.VIAGRA does not protect you from diseases that can be passed on through sex. Make sure to protect yourself and your partner.If you take an alpha blocker drug for high blood pressure or prostate problems, talk to your doctor. You should not take more than 25 mg of VIAGRA and an alpha blocker within 4 hours of each other." Pfizer impotence
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Vioxx(rofecoxib) BRIEF:Fatal heart attack, fatal strokeOFFICIAL: (October 2003)"What are the possible side effects of VIOXX? Serious but rare side effects that have been reported in patients taking VIOXX and/or related medicines have included: * Serious stomach problems, such as stomach and intestinal bleeding, can occur with or without warning symptoms. These problems, if severe, could lead to hospitalization or death. Although this happens rarely, you should watch for signs that you may have this serious side effect and tell your doctor right away. * Heart attacks and similar serious events have been reported in patients taking VIOXX. * Serious allergic reactions including swelling of the face, lips, tongue, and/or throat which may cause difficulty breathing or swallowing and wheezing occur rarely but may require treatment right away. Severe skin reactions have also been reported. * Serious kidney problems occur rarely, including acute kidney failure and worsening of chronic kidney failure. * Severe liver problems, including hepatitis, jaundice and liver failure, occur rarely in patients taking NSAIDs, including VIOXX. Tell your doctor if you develop symptoms of liver problems. These include nausea, tiredness, itching, tenderness in the right upper abdomen, and flu-like symptoms. In addition, the following side effects have been reported: anxiety, blurred vision, colitis, confusion, decreased levels of sodium in the blood, depression, fluid in the lungs, hair loss, hallucinations, increased levels of potassium in the blood, insomnia, low blood cell counts, menstrual disorder, palpitations, pancreatitis, ringing in the ears, severe increase in blood pressure, tingling sensation, unusual headache with stiff neck (aseptic meningitis), vertigo, worsening of epilepsy. More common, but less serious side effects reported with VIOXX have included the following: Upper and/or lower respiratory infection and/or inflammationHeadacheDizzinessDiarrheaNausea and/or vomitingHeartburn, stomach pain and upsetSwelling of the legs and/or feetHigh blood pressureBack painTirednessUrinary tract infection. These side effects were reported in at least 2% of osteoarthritis patients receiving daily doses of VIOXX 12.5 mg to 25 mg in clinical studies. The side effects described above do not include all of the side effects reported with VIOXX. Do not rely on this leaflet alone for information about side effects. Your doctor or pharmacist can discuss with you a more complete list of side effects. Any time you have a medical problem you think may be related to VIOXX, talk to your doctor. Merck arthritis
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Vytorin(ezetimibe - Zetia/ simvastatin - Zocor) BRIEF:Unexplained muscle pain, weakness, liver problems, headache, food interactions, drug interactionsMerck Committed Scientific FRAUDOFFICIAL:Important Safety InformationCan't find it. - See Zocor Merck/ Schering Plough statin
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Wellbutrin(bupropion HCl) BRIEF:SuicideOFFICIAL:"Side Effect OverviewWELLBUTRIN XL is well-toleratedAs with all medications, you may experience side effects when you take WELLBUTRIN XL. Side effects may be more common shortly after you start treatment. The most common side effects with WELLBUTRIN XL are weight loss, loss of appetite, dry mouth, skin rash, sweating, ringing in the ears, shakiness, stomach pain, agitation, anxiety, dizziness, trouble sleeping, muscle pain, nausea, fast heartbeat, sore throat, and urinating more often. Seizures may occur (studies showed an incidence of 1/1000 - 4/1000). The chances of having seizures increases with higher doses. If you have nausea, take WELLBUTRIN XL with food. If you have trouble sleeping, remember to take WELLBUTRIN XL in the morning. Do not change your dose or stop taking WELLBUTRIN XL without talking to your doctor." GlaxoSmithKline depressionComment -"WELLBUTRIN XL is well-tolerated" - nothing is farther from the truth.LOOK at the side effects! When they are this bad, you must lie a lot harder!
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Zelnorm(tegaserod maleate) BRIEF:Headache, diarrhea, abdominal pain, fainting, dizziness, rectal bleedingOFFICIAL:"What are the possible side effects of Zelnorm? Headache and diarrhea were the most common side effects seen with Zelnorm.Diarrhea was an occasional side effect of treatment with Zelnorm. Most people who got diarrhea had it during the first week after starting Zelnorm. Typically, diarrhea went away with continued therapy. If you get bad diarrhea, or if you get diarrhea together with bad cramping, abdominal pain, fainting, or dizziness, tell your doctor. Your doctor may tell you to stop taking Zelnorm or suggest other ways to manage your diarrhea.There have been rare cases of rectal bleeding and severe abdominal pain in patients treated with Zelnorm. Some of these problems were related to insufficient blood flow to part of the bowel. It is not known if this was related to Zelnorm use.In studies, a very small number of patients were reported to have abdominal surgery. In IBS with constipation studies there were a few more reports of abdominal surgery in patients taking Zelnorm than in patients taking a sugar pill. Most of these were related to the gallbladder. It is not known if Zelnorm may increase your chance of abdominal surgery. Gallbladder surgery has been reported to occur more often in IBS patients than in the general population.This list is not complete. Your doctor or pharmacist can give you a more complete list of possible side effects. Talk to your doctor about any side effects you may have." Novartis constipation
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Zocor(simvastatin) BRIEF:Terrible leg painOFFICIAL:"IMPORTANT CONSIDERATIONSZOCOR is a prescription tablet and isn't right for everyone, including women who are nursing or pregnant or who may become pregnant, and anyone with liver problems. Unexplained muscle pain or weakness could be a sign of a rare but serious side effect and should be reported to your doctor right away. ZOCOR may interact with other medicines or certain foods, increasing your risk of getting this serious side effect. So tell your doctor about any other medications you are taking. Please read additional important Patient Product Information and Prescribing Information." Merck statin
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Zyprexa(olanzapine) BRIEF:diabetes, hyperglycemia, ketoacidosisOFFICIAL:"Important Safety Information for Olanzapine Increased Mortality in Elderly Patients with Dementia-Related PsychosisElderly patients with dementia-related psychosis treated with atypical antipsychotic drugs are at an increased risk of death compared to placebo. Analyses of seventeen placebo-controlled trials (modal duration of 10 weeks) in these patients revealed a risk of death in the drug-treated patients of between 1.6 to 1.7 times that seen in placebo-treated patients. Over the course of a typical 10-week controlled trial, the rate of death in drug-treated patients was about 4.5%, compared to a rate of about 2.6% in the placebo group. Although the causes of death were varied, most of the deaths appeared to be either cardiovascular (eg, heart failure, sudden death) or infectious (eg, pneumonia) in nature. ZYPREXA® (olanzapine) is not approved for the treatment of elderly patients with dementia-related psychosis. Safety experience in elderly patients with dementia-related psychosisIn placebo-controlled clinical trials of elderly patients with dementia-related psychosis, the incidence of death in olanzapine-treated patients was significantly greater than placebo-treated patients (3.5% vs 1.5%, respectively). Risk factors that may predispose this patient population to increased mortality when treated with olanzapine include age ³80 years, sedation, concomitant use of benzodiazepines, or presence of pulmonary conditions (eg, pneumonia, with or without aspiration). Olanzapine is not approved for the treatment of patients with dementia-related psychosis. Cerebrovascular adverse events (CVAE), including stroke, in elderly patients with dementiaCerebrovascular adverse events (eg, stroke, transient ischemic attack), including fatalities, were reported in patients in trials of olanzapine in elderly patients with dementia-related psychosis. In placebo-controlled trials, there was a significantly higher incidence of CVAE in patients treated with olanzapine compared to patients treated with placebo. Olanzapine is not approved for the treatment of patients with dementia-related psychosis. Hyperglycemia and diabetes mellitusHyperglycemia, in some cases associated with ketoacidosis, coma, or death, has been reported in patients treated with atypical antipsychotics including olanzapine. Assessment of the relationship between atypical antipsychotic use and glucose abnormalities is complicated by the possibility of an increased background risk of diabetes mellitus in patients with schizophrenia and the increasing incidence of diabetes mellitus in the general population. All patients taking atypicals should be monitored for symptoms of hyperglycemia. Persons with diabetes who are started on atypicals should be monitored regularly for worsening of glucose control; those with risk factors for diabetes should undergo baseline and periodic fasting blood glucose testing. Patients who develop symptoms of hyperglycemia during treatment should undergo fasting blood glucose testing. Hemodynamic effectsIn premarketing trials, some patients taking oral olanzapine experienced orthostatic hypotension associated with dizziness,* tachycardia,* and, in some cases, syncope (15/2500, 0.6%). Hypotension, bradycardia with or without hypotension, tachycardia, and, in some cases, syncope (2/722, 0.3%) were reported during the clinical trials of intramuscular olanzapine in agitated patients. In a clinical pharmacology study in non-agitated patients with schizophrenia, a maximal dosing regimen (three 10-mg doses administered 4 hours apart) was associated with a significant orthostatic decrease in systolic blood pressure in approximately one-third of patients. The risk for these effects may be greater in nonpsychiatric patients compared to psychiatric patients who are possibly more adapted to certain effects of psychotropic drugs. Caution is necessary in patients who receive treatment with other drugs having effects that can induce hypotension, bradycardia, respiratory or central nervous system depression. Concomitant administration of intramuscular olanzapine and parenteral benzodiazepines has not been studied and is therefore not recommended. If use of intramuscular olanzapine in combination with parenteral benzodiazepines is considered, careful evaluation of clinical status for excessive sedation and cardiorespiratory depression is recommended. When subsequent intramuscular injections are considered, patients should be assessed for orthostatic hypotension. Additional injections are not recommended for patients with a clinically significant postural change in systolic blood pressure. Transient, asymptomatic elevations of hepatic transaminaseIn placebo-controlled schizophrenia studies, clinically significant ALT (SGPT) elevations (³3 times the upper limit of the normal range) were observed in 2% (6/243) of patients exposed to oral olanzapine compared to none (0/115) of the placebo patients. None of these patients experienced jaundice. Periodic assessment of transaminases is recommended in patients with significant hepatic disease. Drug interactionsAdministration of intramuscular lorazepam 1 hour after intramuscular olanzapine did not significantly affect the pharmacokinetics of intramuscular olanzapine, unconjugated or total lorazepam. However, this coadministration of lorazepam IM and intramuscular olanzapine added to the somnolence observed with either drug alone. Coadministration of diazepam or ethanol with olanzapine may potentiate orthostatic hypotension. Lower doses of olanzapine should be considered in patients receiving concomitant therapy with fluvoxamine. No clinically significant effect on the pharmacokinetics of commonly used medications, including:* valproate* imipramine* fluoxetine* lithium* desipramine* diazepam Special populations&emdash;elderlyEsophageal dysmotility and aspiration have been associated with antipsychotic drug use. In 5 studies in elderly patients with dementia-related psychosis, adverse events observed at a greater incidence with olanzapine than with placebo were falls, somnolence, peripheral edema, abnormal gait, urinary incontinence, lethargy, increased weight, asthenia, pyrexia, pneumonia, dry mouth, and visual hallucinations. As with other CNS-active drugs, olanzapine should be used with caution in elderly patients with dementia. Olanzapine is not approved for the treatment of patients with dementia-related psychosis. Effect on prolactinModest elevations of prolactin were seen with oral olanzapine in acute-phase schizophrenia trials (incidence 34% vs 13% with placebo), although mean changes from baseline to endpoint were not statistically significantly different between olanzapine and placebo. Some patients may have persisting modest prolactin elevations. Medication dispensing and prescribing errors have occurred between ZYPREXA® (olanzapine) and Zyrtec® (cetirizine HCl). These errors could result in unnecessary adverse events or potential relapse in patients suffering from schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. To reduce the potential for dispensing errors, please write ZYPREXA clearly. As with all antipsychotic medications, the following considerations should be taken into account when prescribing olanzapine: Neuroleptic malignant syndrome (NMS)&emdash;as with all antipsychotic medications, a rare condition known as NMS has been reported with olanzapine. If signs and symptoms appear, immediate discontinuation is recommended. Tardive dyskinesia (TD)&emdash;prescribing should be consistent with the need to minimize TD. If its signs and symptoms appear, discontinuation should be considered. Seizures&emdash;occurred infrequently in premarketing clinical trials of oral olanzapine (22/2500, 0.9%). Confounding factors may have contributed to many of these occurrences. Oral Olanzapine should be used cautiously in patients with a history of seizures or with conditions that lower the seizure threshold. Such conditions may be more prevalent in patients age 65 years or older. The most common treatment-emergent adverse event associated with intramuscular olanzapine vs placebo IM in 3 short-term (24-hour treatment) trials involving agitated patients with schizophrenia or bipolar mania was somnolence (6% vs 3%). Also observed (intramuscular olanzapine vs placebo IM) were dizziness (4% vs 2%), hypotension (2% vs 0%), asthenia (2% vs 1%), tremor (1% vs 0%), and postural hypotension (1% vs 0%). The most common treatment-emergent adverse event associated with oral olanzapine (vs placebo) in 6-week acute-phase schizophrenia trials was somnolence (26% vs 15%). Other common events were dizziness (11% vs 4%), weight gain (6% vs 1%), personality disorderÝ (8% vs 4%), constipation (9% vs 3%), akathisia (5% vs 1%), and postural hypotension (5% vs 2%). The most common treatment-emergent adverse event associated with oral olanzapine (vs placebo) in 3- and 4-week bipolar mania trials was somnolenceý (35% vs 13%). Other common events were dry mouthý (22% vs 7%), dizzinessý (18% vs 6%), astheniaý (15% vs 6%), constipation (11% vs 5%), dyspepsia (11% vs 5%), increased appetite (6% vs 3%), and tremor (6% vs 3%). The most common treatment-emergent adverse event associated with oral olanzapine in combination with lithium or divalproex (vs placebo) in 6-week combination bipolar mania trials was dry mouth (32% vs 9%). Other common events were weight gain (26% vs 7%), increased appetite (24% vs 8%), dizziness (14% vs 7%), back pain (8% vs 4%), constipation (8% v s 4%), speech disorder (7% vs 1%), increased salivation (6% vs 2%), amnesia (5% vs 2%), and paresthesia (5% vs 2%). Eli Lilly mania,bipolar disorder, schizophrenia
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What's the Point? EVERY SINGLE DRUG LISTED ABOVE HAS SIDE EFFECTS THAT CAN BE FAR WORSE THAN THE CONDITION BEING TREATED!
UnacceptableSide Effects Many of these drugs have unacceptable side effects - half the commercial time is used to tell you what the problems are, so you can't complain later. After all, they warned you, right? WRONG! You may need to seek a personal injury lawyer, if you have suffered a personal medical injury, resulting from a prescription drug, such as vioxx.
Hiding FactsWith Graphics Sometimes, the above "OFFICIAL" safety information, is presented as a GRAPHIC on the website, if presented at all. This is done so that the information CAN NOT be read, indexed or found on the internet, using a search engine. There is NO OTHER reason to present this information in graphic format. This is done solely to hide the information, so that Google, Yahoo and MSN can't read it.
Off-Label Uses There is a great deal of concern about many drugs being prescribed for so-called "off-label" uses. Which uses are those? They are any unpublished uses the pharma companies can think of. These off-label uses are given VERBALLY to the doctors, so that there can be no recourse or accountability. After all, they are NOT ON THE LABEL.Not discussed means Not responsible! Now there's a new paradigm! If we don't print it on paper, we are not culpable! Where is the FDA?
The FDA I am told that the FDA is staffed by ex-pharmaceutical company employees, who continue to loosen the reins, and avoid their responsibility for public safety.However, the FDA is becoming more active regarding misleading, inaccurate and unsubstantiated claims of the drug manufacturers, on drugs that have obvious problems. But for most of the other drugs, it is still YOU who must ask the proper questions, and there are many.
You LEARN everything you can about any drug you are about to take. READ, READ, and then, READ some more. May your knowledge keep you healthy and happy, by avoiding the worst side effects

FORD
03-12-2009, 09:16 PM
CR, if I didn't know better, I'd swear you were listening to Thom Hartmann this morning. He was talking about exactly that subject. Prescription drug chemicals vs natural plant based medicines (pot & shrooms included). Kids on prescription meds. Ridiculous big pharma advertising. The connection between pharmaceutical drugs and all these random psycho killing sprees in the news in recent years, etc. Unfortunately I only got to hear the first hour of the show today, but it was some great stuff.

Combat Ready
03-12-2009, 09:23 PM
CR, if I didn't know better, I'd swear you were listening to Thom Hartmann this morning. He was talking about exactly that subject. Prescription drug chemicals vs natural plant based medicines (pot & shrooms included). Kids on prescription meds. Ridiculous big pharma advertising. The connection between pharmaceutical drugs and all these random psycho killing sprees in the news in recent years, etc. Unfortunately I only got to hear the first hour of the show today, but it was some great stuff.

No, didn't hear him. Pretty weak radio signal over this way. I do my best to stay away from the the whole pharma offerings. Maybe one or two aspirin a year.

Nature has much more to offer. ;)

Seshmeister
03-12-2009, 09:27 PM
I’m no medical expert and am not sure of how US citizens stack up with the rest of the world when it comes to prescription drugs. The amount of advertising for prescripts is staggering. How many people are going to the doctor to request the latest thing seen on TV? Lots of side effects could be making overall health worse...

I think this is the longest post here since someone said to me there was no fossil proof of evolution. :)

Combat Ready
03-12-2009, 09:27 PM
Kids on prescription meds.

Borderline abuse? That's tragic stuff there.

Combat Ready
03-12-2009, 09:31 PM
I think this is the longest post here since someone said to me there was no fossil proof of evolution. :)

Yeah, sorry for the spam like post. Lots of fucking side effects to the prescriptions though.

Not sure I want to get into the fossil proof of evolution...Way over my head.

kwame k
03-12-2009, 09:36 PM
I've seen both ends of the spectrum, as far as health care goes. When I had my ACL replaced I had excellent health insurance. I was given the red carpet treatment and physical therapy. Anything I wanted or needed was given to me, perfect health care and great after surgery care. When I dislocated my shoulder I didn't have insurance,the experience was totally different. I was in the emergency room for a total of an 1 1/2 the doctor reset my shoulder and after I woke up was allowed to leave. I had an appointment for a specialist to look at my x-rays a few days later and take some more x-rays. Everything was healing and I was OK. Never once was it mentioned about physical therapy or rehabbing my shoulder. I finally asked the doctor about it and he said, "just more your arm around and flex it", honest to God that was it. He wanted me to make another appointment and a few days later I canceled it. The receptionist asked me why and I told her I was appalled at the lack of any treatment I was given. She said, well the doctor knew you didn't have insurance and just figured you wouldn't want the extra expense. I was pissed and told her that, shouldn't that be my decision as to whether I can afford to rehab myself or not. Dead silence on the phone. I berated her some more and asked her to please tell the doctor not to make decisions based on his opinion of whether or not he was going to be paid.

What a fucking joke.

On the other hand. If anyone wanted to get any kind of prescription they'll give it to you. Doctors over prescribe medication about 70% of the time, according to the AMA. Feeling a little down, here's a pill. Can't sleep here's a pill. Health Care in this country is about getting paid and not about the quality of health care given. We do have some of the best Health Care in the world and why it costs what it does makes absolutely no sense. Hell, don't cover everyone fine but make it affordable for everyone who needs it.

Why not give the new doctors out of college a chance to work off some of their tuition. Every new doctor has to work in a state hospital for 2 years and they'll get x amount taken off of their tuition. Have a tier system, Public health care and private health care. We have some of that now but why not have affordable health care for the masses and if you can afford better care have that option available too. That way the top guys can make their money and the average doctors can treat the masses.

kwame k
03-12-2009, 09:39 PM
Wow, you fuckers posted all that while I was writing my post. Well I am glad I'm not the only one when it comes to prescription drugs and their evils.

FORD
03-12-2009, 09:45 PM
Borderline abuse? That's tragic stuff there.

When I was like 5 or 6, they had me on Ritalin for a little while. And this is the early 70's, before big pharma was anywhere near this big. Knowing what that shit did to my metabolism, I could never do that to a kid. Let alone something more fucked up like anti-depressants or whatever.

sadaist
03-13-2009, 12:00 AM
Stay on topic. And with the guns we're exporting, and all the drugs imported, from Mexico, of course we're going to have to patch them up!


I'm spot on topic. Just because you don't fancy this piece of the puzzle is no reason to keep it in the dark. We spend 2 1/2 times more per person than any other advanced country...might be attributable to paying for 2 1/2 times the people. Out of the staggering $2.4 trillion annually Americans spend on health care, how much of that is for uninsureds? An estimated 13 million+ illegal immigrants sharing my state and receiving free health care might have something to do with my costs increasing while my level of care decreases. That doesn't even count the number of people who are citizens that do not pay for any coverage.

sadaist
03-13-2009, 12:06 AM
Have a tier system, Public health care and private health care.

Have you seen how this system works in our justice system? Compare a public defender to a privately retained attorney. Probably the difference between a slap on the wrist and doing time.

sadaist
03-13-2009, 12:10 AM
Heck--if you can't brew it or grow it....Stay away.

Wait until you need the daily trifecta of Cisplatin, Bleomycin & Etoposide....can't home grow those or anything close. Could grow the tree to build your coffin out of though.

But I agree 1,000,000% about freeing up the use of alternative methods.

Combat Ready
03-13-2009, 12:56 AM
Wait until you need the daily trifecta of Cisplatin, Bleomycin & Etoposide....can't home grow those or anything close. Could grow the tree to build your coffin out of though.

But I agree 1,000,000% about freeing up the use of alternative methods.

I hear you S--I know you and the family are battling some tough stuff now, and I wish you all the best! You're right, there are legitimate clinical needs for Rx drugs. I don't mean diminish the value to those in need---my dad has been battling cancer for a few years now...I can relate.

I was trying to make the point that Rx drugs are over prescribed and over used.

Big Train
03-13-2009, 12:58 AM
[QUOTE=Nickdfresh;1330768]Report: Health care 'value gap' hurts U.S.
Americans spend a lot more than top countries, but aren’t as healthy
The Associated Press
Thurs., March. 12, 2009



Concern about high U.S. costs has existed for years, and business executives — whose companies provide health coverage for workers — have long called for getting costs under control. Now President Barack Obama says the costs have become unsustainable and the system must be overhauled.

It compares statistics on life expectancy, death rates and even cholesterol readings and blood pressures. The health measures are factored together with costs into a 100-point "value" scale. That hasn't been done before, the authors said.

The results are not encouraging.

The United States is 23 points behind five leading economic competitors: Canada, Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and France. The five nations cover all their citizens, and though their systems differ, in each country the government plays a much larger role than in the U.S.


While I'm first in line to say that this system overpays for damn near everything and we SHOULD be having meaningful congressional hearings on it (but with campaign contributions being what they are, unlikely), this study seems a bit flawed to me.

This "health score" would seem to have as much to do with McDonald's as it does the hospital system. If your using blood pressure and cholesterol in your formula, it would seem personal choice and lifestyle shouldn't be held against the health care system itself.

We need to get costs under control, which I personally believe can be done without sacrificing quality or salaries. Simple investigation into the sweetheart deals and profit margins on medicines and medical devices alone should yield interesting answers. This country is rich enough to pay for our own health care without going to Universal health care, which will not eliminate waste, but multiply it.

sadaist
03-13-2009, 01:47 AM
I was trying to make the point that Rx drugs are over prescribed and over used.

True that. But I have been hearing stories where needed meds aren't prescribed because the doctors are under so much scrutiny due to abuse. Vicodin, Oxycontin, Valium, Xanax, etc... The people who genuinely would benefit from these sometimes have difficulty getting the amounts they need. So the over prescribing by many hurts the few. Weird, huh?


Oh, and if you are prescribed say 60 Vicodin for a 30-day supply. Twice a day. If you have a couple of particular bad days and take an extra on each of those days you are fucked. Cause now you run out in 27 days and can't get refilled until day 30.

Nickdfresh
03-13-2009, 08:10 AM
I'm spot on topic. Just because you don't fancy this piece of the puzzle is no reason to keep it in the dark. We spend 2 1/2 times more per person than any other advanced country...might be attributable to paying for 2 1/2 times the people. Out of the staggering $2.4 trillion annually Americans spend on health care, how much of that is for uninsureds? An estimated 13 million+ illegal immigrants sharing my state and receiving free health care might have something to do with my costs increasing while my level of care decreases. That doesn't even count the number of people who are citizens that do not pay for any coverage.

This isn't about illegal aliens, which there are less and less of, as anybody has the right to emergency treatment. It's about 48 million uninsured despite spending the most on health care and the drain this puts on small businesses since they cannot always cover their workers or must invest substantial assets into doing so....

So what's your alternative? A Mexican kid comes into an LA emergency room with a nail stuck in his forehead - just let him die then?

Guitar Shark
03-13-2009, 01:43 PM
Somehow, we need to remove (or at least control) the profit motive from the healthcare system.

FORD
03-13-2009, 01:51 PM
Exactly. Health care should be about preventing illness when at all possible, and failing that, the best treatment and/or cure options possible. It should not be about making money.

Seshmeister
03-13-2009, 03:28 PM
Wait until you need the daily trifecta of Cisplatin, Bleomycin & Etoposide....can't home grow those or anything close. Could grow the tree to build your coffin out of though.

But I agree 1,000,000% about freeing up the use of alternative methods.

Sorry to hear that hope it all works out.

sadaist
03-13-2009, 06:14 PM
Exactly. Health care should be about preventing illness when at all possible, and failing that, the best treatment and/or cure options possible. It should not be about making money.

Isn't it extremely expensive to research & develop new drugs? The manufacturers seem to make way too much profit, but I know such things like no generic makers can compete for X amount of years is supposed to be so they can recoup r & d costs.

Big Train
03-15-2009, 11:56 PM
Exactly. Health care should be about preventing illness when at all possible, and failing that, the best treatment and/or cure options possible. It should not be about making money.

The flip side of that is precisely because there is a profit motive, billions are poured into drug remedies. The middle balance point of risk and reward, I'm not sure any of us can point it out exactly.

My middle for this argument is that we are doing all of this wastefully. I, although not a popular conservative argument, believe we should be investing most of our budget into mapping the human genome and stem cells. All of our understanding is based on trial and error. Mapping and stem cells will allow us to look at problems more intelligently and come to solutions quicker. I'm all for that from a humanitarian POV (believe it or not, I'm not into human suffering) and for capitalistic reasons. We should do things the smartest way possible. The ethical side arguments are trumped, to me, by the ethical main arguments.

Redballjets88
03-16-2009, 12:06 AM
When I was like 5 or 6, they had me on Ritalin for a little while. And this is the early 70's, before big pharma was anywhere near this big. Knowing what that shit did to my metabolism, I could never do that to a kid. Let alone something more fucked up like anti-depressants or whatever.

5 or 6 years old is horrible to do to a kid. When I was 12 or 13 I was on adderall I couldn't stand the stuff. I'm a tall lanky guy and weighed about 115 pounds then and dropped to 105 in a few months because I was never hungry on that shit. Although I made all A's throughout that school year I refused to keep using it. The A.D.D. medication is nuts, I felt like a zombie all day long, like walking around in a haze for 6 to 8 hours a day.

Redballjets88
03-16-2009, 12:12 AM
This isn't about illegal aliens, which there are less and less of, as anybody has the right to emergency treatment. It's about 48 million uninsured despite spending the most on health care and the drain this puts on small businesses since they cannot always cover their workers or must invest substantial assets into doing so....

So what's your alternative? A Mexican kid comes into an LA emergency room with a nail stuck in his forehead - just let him die then?

I agree 100% about the illegals. There may be 13 million illegals but a large amount of them do have some sort of medical coverage. At the hotel I worked at everyone had insurance, legal or not. They paid co-pays etc.

When it comes to illegals I'm liberal as hell. I have never met an illegal that I didn't like or that was anything other than a hard worker.

Redballjets88
03-16-2009, 12:15 AM
The FDA really needs to rethink what they put out on the market for people to use. Shit like oxycotin, vicadin, and other pain medications are horrible for people to be taking, especially when there are other alternatives for pain relief. Not saying that people don't need something to help the pain, just how about something that isn't as addictive as heroin?

People are getting hooked on doctor prescribed medications left and right nowadays, and the big companies are profiting from it non-stop it is so overlooked because the people on these pills still feel the pain, but it is no longer from the injury but from the addiction. They need to get some sort of handle on this before the U.S. looks like it did at the turn of the century (1899-1900 turn of century) when people were hooked on laudanum and morphine for illnesses that didn't need that kind of medicine.

FORD
03-16-2009, 12:22 AM
The flip side of that is precisely because there is a profit motive, billions are poured into drug remedies. The middle balance point of risk and reward, I'm not sure any of us can point it out exactly.

My middle for this argument is that we are doing all of this wastefully. I, although not a popular conservative argument, believe we should be investing most of our budget into mapping the human genome and stem cells. All of our understanding is based on trial and error. Mapping and stem cells will allow us to look at problems more intelligently and come to solutions quicker. I'm all for that from a humanitarian POV (believe it or not, I'm not into human suffering) and for capitalistic reasons. We should do things the smartest way possible. The ethical side arguments are trumped, to me, by the ethical main arguments.

Now that President Obama has reversed Chimpy's ban on stem cell research, I'm anticipating research in that area will accelerate greatly. Or should I say the overall pro-science outlook of this administration, as opposed to the BCE who pandered both to religious reich extremism and pharmaceutical monopoly. I'm not sure how far they intend on going to fix the overall health care crisis, but that alone is a great step forward.

FORD
03-16-2009, 12:27 AM
The FDA really needs to rethink what they put out on the market for people to use. Shit like oxycotin, vicadin, and other pain medications are horrible for people to be taking, especially when there are other alternatives for pain relief. Not saying that people don't need something to help the pain, just how about something that isn't as addictive as heroin?

People are getting hooked on doctor prescribed medications left and right nowadays, and the big companies are profiting from it non-stop it is so overlooked because the people on these pills still feel the pain, but it is no longer from the injury but from the addiction. They need to get some sort of handle on this before the U.S. looks like it did at the turn of the century (1899-1900 turn of century) when people were hooked on laudanum and morphine for illnesses that didn't need that kind of medicine.

The problem with the FDA is the same thing as the problem with Wall Street - lack of any meaningful regulation for the last 28 years. Nearly everyone in Chimpy's first cabinet was tied to the pharmaceutical industry. Including his dad, who I believe is still on the board at Eli Lilly Pharmaceuticals.

Redballjets88
03-16-2009, 12:35 AM
The problem with the FDA is the same thing as the problem with Wall Street - lack of any meaningful regulation for the last 28 years. Nearly everyone in Chimpy's first cabinet was tied to the pharmaceutical industry. Including his dad, who I believe is still on the board at Eli Lilly Pharmaceuticals.

It is out of hand how this stuff is given out like candy. Insurance would be affordable is the companies weren't shelling out so much money to buy pain killers non stop for the abusers out there.

I worked with a girl that is about 27 or 28, she is totally strung out on pills, has a history of addiction, and in the 11 months I knew her had at least 4 back surgeries. The shittiest thing is that she has 2 kids and I hate to say it because I know the girl and she is nice, but how can one raise 2 kids alone while nursing a pain med addiction.

And the kicker is that if she got off the pills and got into a recovery program odds are her back pain would go away because her body wouldn't be dependent on the pills anymore.

GAR
03-16-2009, 01:26 AM
When I was like 5 or 6, they had me on Ritalin for a little while.

"..then, when I was 7 I smoked my first joint with Uncle George and wound up on him for quite a while."

ELVIS
03-16-2009, 01:33 AM
Isn't it extremely expensive to research & develop new drugs? The manufacturers seem to make way too much profit, but I know such things like no generic makers can compete for X amount of years is supposed to be so they can recoup r & d costs.

Well, i've been a nurse for 20 years and it's appalling what's going on with corrent drug research and development...

Take blood pressure medication for instance...

When I started out there were safe and effective blood pressure medications, but now you hardly ever see them in use due to Doctors getting kick backs through lobbyists or drug reps...

And the side effects of a lot of these new drugs are dangerous, possibly cancer causing and in many cases, deadly...

Then there's the statin class of drugs that are supposed to reduce cholesterol...AND THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT GIVING THEM TO CHILDREN!

There's even debate going on between groups of cardiologists whether cholesterol is even a leading cause (or cause at all) of heart disease, or the formation of plaque in arteries...

And I can go on and on...


AND don't get me started on vaccines!


:mad::elvis:

ELVIS
03-16-2009, 01:36 AM
And it's only going to get much worse if Obaahaahaahaahaahaama get's his healthcare reform wish...

It will not work!


:elvis:

FORD
03-16-2009, 01:43 AM
I was on a prescription blood pressure drug for a while. Switched to an herbal supplement instead. The natural stuff worked much better. And it didn't drop my potassium levels to dangerous territory like the prescription drug can do, if you don't carefully monitor that shit

which of course requires repeat visits to the doctors office, and big needles sucking out blood for the tests. Who the fuck needs all that? Take the stuff God invented. Hell, you can even keep it Kosher with this stuff....

Michael's Products and Online Store (http://www.michaelshealth.com/products.asp?id=18)

FORD
03-16-2009, 01:47 AM
And it's only going to get much worse if Obaahaahaahaahaahaama get's his healthcare reform wish...

It will not work!


:elvis:


Ummmm.... Nurse Elvis.....

Your previous post is a great example of why corporate health care for profit is NOT working. If we actually moved to a single payer system, where the insurance companies and big pharma weren't running the show, these sort of abuses would not happen.

Not that Obama's current plan is single payer, but hopefully it will become that, if it is clear that the people want it. And that includes those who work in the industry such as yourself.

ELVIS
03-16-2009, 07:30 AM
No dude...

It will just be a huge money sucking bureaucracy with miles and mils of paper work...and that's on top of the incredible paper work in the medical field...

Yeah, get the government involved...:scared14:


The Obama team...

:stirthepot::stirthepot::cool8::stirthepot:

Angel
03-16-2009, 09:39 AM
Elvis, you don't have a fucking clue...

binnie
03-16-2009, 09:43 AM
I think this is the longest post here since someone said to me there was no fossil proof of evolution. :)

There isn't: God put fossils there to test our faith :D

ELVIS
03-16-2009, 09:46 AM
Fuck you and your big black titties, Angelslut!

20 years in the health care field gives me a FUCKING CLUE, bitch!

Now go back to your hopeless Canadian Health care system...

You might even fair better in Cuba...


:elvis:

Angel
03-16-2009, 10:13 AM
My system is far better than yours, and thank God I have it, or I would have been dead a long time ago. I worked in medical administration for 10 years. I have no doubt you know what you're talking about in the medical end of things, as far as administration - you obviously DON'T know what you're talking about. If you did, you would be aware that our system is better than yours.

ELVIS
03-16-2009, 11:06 AM
How so ??

And I will admit to staying as far away as possible from medical administration because my job is to deliver health care...

I don't care who has money, insurance or neither. I treat them identically, as many of my peers do...

The Doctors, Nurses and other health care professionals aren't the problem, aside from being an ever increasing shortage of the above, and with the baby boomers at retirement age, the demand for health care will multiply significantly...

The problems are administrative and complex, but government isn't the answer...


:elvis:

Nitro Express
03-16-2009, 11:29 AM
I actually found I had more choices paying my medical bills in cash. In fact, my doctor gives me a cash discount because he has to have a staff of four people just to handle the medical/insurance billing. I have to be on a CPAP machine at night and when I went to buy my machine I got a cash discount and got to choose whatever machine I wanted. The medical equipment supply company has to have six full time people to do their medical/insurance billing. The way medicare/medicade and insurance works these days is your doctor has to bill you for the huge staff they have to have to handle the beurocracy and stupidity. Any old timer will tell you the doctors started charging more after President Johnson started medicare/medicade.

In the US I can buy my own CPAP machine from whoever I want. In the UK you cannot buy your own CPAP machine. The state ran medical beurocracy has to issue you one. No choices and it takes forever to get one and hopefully you don't die of complications due to severe obstructive sleep apnea while waiting for one.

Nitro Express
03-16-2009, 11:31 AM
If the Canadian system is so great, how come all my relatives in Alberta come to the US for their operations? Oh yeah. They can get in faster and choose their doctor.

Blaze
03-16-2009, 11:34 AM
I actually found I had more choices paying my medical bills in cash. In fact, my doctor gives me a cash discount because he has to have a staff of four people just to handle the medical/insurance billing. I have to be on a CPAP machine at night and when I went to buy my machine I got a cash discount and got to choose whatever machine I wanted. The medical equipment supply company has to have six full time people to do their medical/insurance billing. The way medicare/medicade and insurance works these days is your doctor has to bill you for the huge staff they have to have to handle the beurocracy and stupidity. Any old timer will tell you the doctors started charging more after President Johnson started medicare/medicade.

In the US I can buy my own CPAP machine from whoever I want. In the UK you cannot buy your own CPAP machine. The state ran medical beurocracy has to issue you one. No choices and it takes forever to get one and hopefully you don't die of complications due to severe obstructive sleep apnea while waiting for one.

This works great, I always had super health care when I paid cash. However, this style of care breaks down when you get a catastrophic health condition.

FORD
03-16-2009, 01:03 PM
McClatchy Washington Bureau

Posted on Mon, Mar. 16, 2009
Commentary: Obama should offer public health insurance to all
Ramon Castellblanch | The Progressive Media Project


President Obama should provide all Americans the choice of a public health insurance plan like Medicare. He shouldn't just leave us a choice of private insurance companies, none of which could offer decent coverage.

The public health insurance option is attractive for several reasons.

First, it would lead the way in lowering administrative costs. It wouldn't need to make a profit. It wouldn't need to pay outsized salaries to administrators. Public health insurance programs have administrative costs nearly 10 percent below those of most private insurance policies, according to the Department of Health and Human Services.

Second, since a public health insurance option would not be under pressure to pay shareholders, it would be more able to invest in quality health care through prevention and in advising doctors about the latest research on the most effective treatments – rather than on the most profitable ones.

Third, the public insurance option would provide beneficiaries with reliable coverage. Private insurers are notorious for dumping people with little notice. For example, a decade ago, when Congress restricted private insurer profiteering in the Medicare program, insurers quickly dropped coverage for millions of seniors. As a result, many were left without access to their doctors and to needed medical care.

Finally, a public plan could be held more accountable for its decisions than private insurers. Choices about what to cover and how to pay providers could be openly debated whereas private insurers often decide behind closed doors which doctors you can see and what treatment costs are reimbursable.

Private insurers know that, if they had to compete fairly with a public option, they would have to offer affordable, high quality, reliable insurance or lose. They could not get away with ripping off the government as they currently do when, according to the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission, they overcharge it 14 percent to cover Medicare beneficiaries.

So, private insurers have made blocking competition from a public health plan their top priority in this year's debate over President Obama's health plan. They will spend millions to influence Congress and the White House to allow them a free hand in looting new federal investments in health insurance.

For those who want an end to exorbitant insurer profits and our country's long string of health care reform fiascos, it's time to stand up. We should demand the choice of a public health insurance plan. With it, our country would finally get health care reform that bails out those needing health care, instead of those selling private insurance.



ABOUT THE WRITER

Ramon Castellblanch is an associate professor of health education at San Francisco State University. The writer wrote this for Progressive Media Project, a source of liberal commentary on domestic and international issues; it is affiliated with The Progressive magazine. Readers may write to the author at: Progressive Media Project, 409 East Main Street, Madison, Wis. 53703; e-mail: pmproj@progressive.org; Web site: The Progressive | Peace and social justice since 1909 (http://www.progressive.org). For information on PMP's funding, please visit http://www.progressive.org/pmpabout.html#anchorsupport.

This article was prepared for The Progressive Media Project and is available to MCT subscribers. McClatchy-Tribune did not subsidize the writing of this column; the opinions are those of the writer and do not necessarily represent the views of McClatchy Newspapers, McClatchy-Tribune or its editors.

© 2009, Ramon Castellblanch

Link (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/63896.html)

swage33
03-16-2009, 07:57 PM
When I was like 5 or 6, they had me on Ritalin for a little while. And this is the early 70's, before big pharma was anywhere near this big. Knowing what that shit did to my metabolism, I could never do that to a kid. Let alone something more fucked up like anti-depressants or whatever.

Were your parents freaky beatniks? Who the fuck puts a 5 or 6 year old on behavioir meds? Sorry ass failures, thats who. Reminds me of that Simpson's episode, "You gotta help us, doc, we've tried nothing and we're all outta ideas!".

FORD
03-16-2009, 08:11 PM
At least my parents didn't meet at the annual family reunion & cross burning.

swage33
03-16-2009, 08:17 PM
At least my parents didn't meet at the annual family reunion & cross burning.


That brings back memories and as I recall our fathers were men and our mothers were women and we were all well disciplined and well behaved. But then, our parents actually tried to raise good people. Seems to be a lost "art".

FORD
03-16-2009, 08:27 PM
http://www.law.du.edu/jenkins/images/kkk.gif


That brings back memories and as I recall our fathers were men and our mothers were women and we were all well disciplined and well behaved......


http://proudatheists.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/kkk-child-in-robe1.jpg

...But then, our parents actually tried to raise good people. Seems to be a lost "art".

swage33
03-16-2009, 08:37 PM
For anyone paying attention to this little exchange, let me explain what is going on here. Ford and I disagree philosophically....we have engaged each other personally and, having nothing intelligent to offer, Ford has assumed the typical Nazi posture of likening your enemy to something despicable. The Nazis likened Jews to rats so as to influence public opinion against them. In this instance, Ford has chosen to liken me to a Klansman. Now, do what Ford wants you to do and hate me for I am a Klansman....please join Ford in your hatred of me....he is trying so hard to influence your opinion. Although this tactic is old hat, this is top shelf shit for Ford. Show him some respect and hate me as though you would hate a klansman. Even turds need affirmation.

FORD
03-16-2009, 08:45 PM
You and your boyfriend Lardbo the Burbank Bitch used to brag about being Klanswomen. So don't bother with the revisionist history.

swage33
03-16-2009, 08:48 PM
I bragged about being a Klanswoman??????? But, I have a penis.....I must be a KlansMAN...just like you said. Pull up your pants, dude, I'm done spanking you.

Blaze
03-16-2009, 08:54 PM
Interesting

Nickdfresh
03-16-2009, 09:03 PM
The costs of health care need to be managed, because we sure are not getting our money's worth...

And as far as the drug companies, they are too busy pounding money into advertising for erectile dysfunction drugs to bother with new antibiotics...

Angel
03-17-2009, 07:55 PM
If the Canadian system is so great, how come all my relatives in Alberta come to the US for their operations? Oh yeah. They can get in faster and choose their doctor.

What the FUCK gives people the idea that we don't choose our own doctors? I've NEVER understood that one! We choose our own doctors. We can't see a specialist without a referral from our GP. That stops people from unnecessary visits to specialists. If you don't like the specialist your GP has referred you to, you ask for to see someone else. Simple.

Surgery wait times are based on need. A girl I work with tore her achilles tendon last month, she had the surgery 12 hours after the injury. My bosses my mother just had a heart attack, and will have her bypass surgery as soon as she is strong enough to survive it.

Hips and knee replacement surgeries have long waits, and they definitely need to do something about that.

I had my new pacemaker within 2 weeks of them deciding I needed a new one last year.

In a nutshell, all surgeries are triaged... life & death come first, and then it is all based on how it impacts the patients well being and quality of life.

I'd be curious to know what surgeries your Alberta relatives have gone to the States for...

Angel
03-17-2009, 08:03 PM
How so ??

And I will admit to staying as far away as possible from medical administration because my job is to deliver health care...

I don't care who has money, insurance or neither. I treat them identically, as many of my peers do...

The Doctors, Nurses and other health care professionals aren't the problem, aside from being an ever increasing shortage of the above, and with the baby boomers at retirement age, the demand for health care will multiply significantly...

The problems are administrative and complex, but government isn't the answer...


:elvis:

How so? Your infant mortality rate is much higher than ours, your life expectancy is much lower, and per capita spending is double what ours is.

The problem is that you think the government is much more involved than they are. It's not a socialized medicine program, it's a health insurance program. Most provinces pay premiums (around $40 per person). I happen to live in a province that doesn't have premiums, but we do have higher tax rates to compensate for that.

Nitro Express
03-17-2009, 08:10 PM
This works great, I always had super health care when I paid cash. However, this style of care breaks down when you get a catastrophic health condition.

Basically it breaks down when you run out of cash and that is what health insurance was all about. It used to be the patient paid cash and then insurance kicked in when they couldn't. This is the old health care we had before the govt. got involved in it.

Once lawyers could sue the insurance providers and people abused their health coverage and big pharma went crazy it all snowballed into a FUCK THEE fest.

Nitro Express
03-17-2009, 08:15 PM
How we fix healthcare is to eat right and exercise. Say FUCK YOU! by living healthy. The US if full of self-inflicted health issues and do you think most the people on perscription drugs need the shit? Some do but do all those people need Prozac? Look at the fat assed slobs chain smoking crying for healthcare. This is a big factor in the problem.

FORD
03-17-2009, 10:27 PM
"eating right" isn't always that easy. There are people without much money out there who have no space to grow their own organic gardens, and can't afford to shop at Whole Foods, Trader Joes, or their local Farmer's Market (assuming they live in a place that actually has one).

That puts them at the mercy of whomever manufactures the food at their local Safeway, Albertsons, or (god help them) WalMart. And most of the cheaper food is high sodium, high fructose corn poison infested garbage.

ELVIS
03-17-2009, 10:44 PM
Even walmart has decent produce...

At least around here...


:elvis:

Angel
03-18-2009, 12:10 AM
I know what you mean about eating right. I saw a dad shopping with his daughter last night. EVERY fucking thing they bought was processed foods.

I raised my son without a lot of cash, and he ALWAYS ate healthy. I was sick looking at the shit that this guy was buying.

ELVIS
03-18-2009, 12:12 AM
Are those your real tits ??

Angel
03-18-2009, 12:30 AM
Not at all. For one thing, I'm white - and at my age if they were that big, they'd be somewhere around my belly button, I'm sure! A friend was using my computer and I discovered some sites he'd gone on... I just couldn't resist, they jumped out at me!

Most comments I've ever had on an Av, that's for sure...

They're so much fun! :bigboobs:

ELVIS
03-18-2009, 12:34 AM
If they were yours i'd be on a plane tomorrow...

I dig black chicks!


:elvis:

Nickdfresh
03-18-2009, 04:58 AM
Even walmart has decent produce...

At least around here...


:elvis:

They suck harry ballsack here...

The local Target is going into the supermarket business though and I'm looking forward to that...

Angel
03-18-2009, 10:15 AM
If they were yours i'd be on a plane tomorrow...

I dig black chicks!


:elvis:

Me too. :biggrin:

WACF
03-18-2009, 12:04 PM
What the FUCK gives people the idea that we don't choose our own doctors? I've NEVER understood that one! We choose our own doctors. We can't see a specialist without a referral from our GP. That stops people from unnecessary visits to specialists. If you don't like the specialist your GP has referred you to, you ask for to see someone else. Simple.

Surgery wait times are based on need. A girl I work with tore her achilles tendon last month, she had the surgery 12 hours after the injury. My bosses my mother just had a heart attack, and will have her bypass surgery as soon as she is strong enough to survive it.

Hips and knee replacement surgeries have long waits, and they definitely need to do something about that.

I had my new pacemaker within 2 weeks of them deciding I needed a new one last year.

In a nutshell, all surgeries are triaged... life & death come first, and then it is all based on how it impacts the patients well being and quality of life.

I'd be curious to know what surgeries your Alberta relatives have gone to the States for...


Pretty much sums it up.

If it is serious...you get in now.

I was in a bad workplace accident years ago and I can not complain about the care.

I think people that have money to burn will go to the states.

For example...the knee surgery wait times here.

My mom has been on the list for almost a year...they decided she is not bad enough yet.

If they had money to burn she would most likely just go and get it done.

That is where we are failing....I do think mix of private and public is good...as long as the private is paid by the gov and regulated to what it can charge.

I think somewhere in Alberta a year ago or so they did this for a bit...to knock wait times down...and it was successful

WACF
03-18-2009, 12:11 PM
How so? Your infant mortality rate is much higher than ours, your life expectancy is much lower, and per capita spending is double what ours is.

The problem is that you think the government is much more involved than they are. It's not a socialized medicine program, it's a health insurance program. Most provinces pay premiums (around $40 per person). I happen to live in a province that doesn't have premiums, but we do have higher tax rates to compensate for that.


Well, we do live where it all started....we can thank Tommy that crazy little socialist.


That $40....was that per month?

Does everyone pay or is it attached to ones income level and or age?

blonddgirl777
03-18-2009, 12:38 PM
My system is far better than yours, and thank God I have it, or I would have been dead a long time ago...

Same here...
Our system is not 100% perfect but the ones that benefit greatly from it are damn happy it's available!


Yet, another comment on your Av. Angel; Your previous one was WAY better! ;)

Angel
03-18-2009, 02:11 PM
Well, we do live where it all started....we can thank Tommy that crazy little socialist.


That $40....was that per month?

Does everyone pay or is it attached to ones income level and or age?

If I remember correctly, in Alberta it's per person - but premium assistance is available to lower incomes. I went to check the rates, and lo & behold, as of January 1, Albertans no longer pay premiums.

I just checked BC, and it's:
$54 for one person
$96 for a family of two
$108 for a family of three or more

Pretty fucking cheap when you compare to "other countries". ;)

Hell, I doubt I'd be able to get coverage in the States, due to my pacemaker. If I could get coverage, I bet it would be at least $1000 a month!

Angel
03-18-2009, 02:14 PM
Yet, another comment on your Av. Angel; Your previous one was WAY better! ;)

This one is much more fun! :bigboobs:

LoungeMachine
03-18-2009, 02:17 PM
Fuck you and your big black titties, Angelslut!

20 years in the health care field gives me a FUCKING CLUE, bitch!

Now go back to your hopeless Canadian Health care system...

You might even fair better in Cuba...


:elvis:

When pushed, this side of ELVIS comes out.... :D

The Christian Nurse from Bizarro World.

:gulp:

Take a deep breath [of nitrous if need be] and count to 10, E

Angel
03-18-2009, 02:23 PM
Not to worry, my av calmed him down. ;)

WACF
03-18-2009, 02:31 PM
Not to worry, my av calmed him down. ;)

Those soothers can calm anybody down...

LoungeMachine
03-18-2009, 02:35 PM
I'm sorry, but they do nothing for me.

Too big, too pointy, too silicone.....

Give me Halle Berry's any day.

:gulp:

Angel
03-18-2009, 02:40 PM
You don't like my tits? Now I'm gonna cry! ;)

LoungeMachine
03-18-2009, 02:52 PM
You don't like my tits? Now I'm gonna cry! ;)

Show me your's, I'll let you know. ;)

:gulp:

Nitro Express
03-18-2009, 02:58 PM
This one is much more fun! :bigboobs:

I could lick some nipples right now. I'm in the mood for a good lay in the hay. Nothing better to take your mind off this healthcare shit.

blonddgirl777
03-18-2009, 07:58 PM
... a good lay in the hay. Nothing better to take your mind off this healthcare shit.

And to keep you healthy! ;)
For various reasons, men that get layed often are healthier than the ones who don't!

Angel
03-18-2009, 08:32 PM
You'd like 'em. :bigboobs:

(and you would have liked them even more 20 years ago... BUWAHAHAHA!!!)