Military Deserters Once Again Flock to Canada

[Sarge]

Dallas News - Military Deserters Once Again Flock to Canada - page 1 (http://www.dallasobserver.com/2009-03-12/news/gimme-shelter/)

Military Deserters Once Again Flock to Canada
Looks like this time they picked the wrong country.

By Megan Feldman (http://www.dallasobserver.com/feedback/EmailAnEmployee/?to=288484)

Published on March 11, 2009 at 10:41am

Just 5 feet tall, with a baby strapped to her chest and a soft, faltering voice, Kim Rivera is anything but soldierly. Yet two years ago she was a Texas private in the War on Terror, guarding a gate with an M4 rifle and frisking Iraqi civilians at a base in eastern Baghdad.

Ian Willms

http://media.dallasobserver.com/gimme-shelter.3143565.51.jpg (http://www.dallasobserver.com/photoGallery/?gallery=1275688)Kim Rivera, the first female Iraq War deserter to seek refuge in Canada, waits for a streetcar in Toronto.
Ian Willms

http://media.dallasobserver.com/gimme-shelter.3143568.51.jpg (http://www.dallasobserver.com/photoGallery/?gallery=1275688&position=1)Army deserter Kim Rivera grocery shops for her family in Toronto, where they fled after she went AWOL in 2007.
Details:

http://media.dallasobserver.com/3152902.0.jpg (http://www.dallasobserver.com/slideshow/view/261139)
See more photos of Rivera, Johnson and the War Resisters Support Campaign in our slideshow here (http://www.dallasobserver.com/slideshow/view/261139).



Subject(s):

Iraq war (http://www.dallasobserver.com/search/?keywords=Iraq war), military (http://www.dallasobserver.com/search/?keywords=military), deserters (http://www.dallasobserver.com/search/?keywords=deserters), Canada (http://www.dallasobserver.com/search/?keywords=Canada), refugees (http://www.dallasobserver.com/search/?keywords=refugees)
Now, on a Wednesday evening in January, the 26-year-old mother of three stands in a room in frigid, snow-covered Toronto. Her fair-skinned face and round blue eyes are framed by auburn hair pulled back in a low ponytail, and she places a hand on her bundled baby as she faces some 100 people seated in folding chairs in the middle-class apartment building's community room.
Rivera clears her throat and unfolds a sheet of paper.
"I was fighting your kind for killing my kind," she begins, reading a poem she wrote last summer and dedicated to the people of Iraq. "I was fighting for your liberty; I was fighting for peace." She pauses and takes a deep breath. "But in reality, I was fighting to destroy everything you know and love."
The audience listens in silence. Some nod. A few wipe tears from their eyes. They are peace activists and professors, fellow American Iraq War deserters in their 20s and American hippies in their 60s, Vietnam draft-dodgers and Canadian mothers.
They're all rooting for Rivera, red state warrior turned peacenik deserter. They're hoping and praying that by some lucky chance or the benevolent hand of a politician or judge, the young mother will escape the deportation order that has been issued here and the court martial that awaits back home.
Three years ago, before Iraq and Canada, Rivera's dreams of going to college and developing a career had faded. She'd spent five years working at Walmart in her hometown of Mesquite, met her husband in the store's food court and had her first two children. After several years of living with relatives and struggling to save for their own apartment, Rivera saw the Army as the only way out. Through the military, she could make more than $10.50 an hour, plus get health insurance and higher education. And since she and her husband were both overweight and she was certain that she could shed the necessary pounds faster than he could, she began talking to recruiters.
She enlisted in early 2006. When she signed the contract, she thought of the war in Iraq as a remote and necessary evil. She was raised to praise the Lord and praise her country, and if that meant ridding the world of terrorists while allowing her and her family to get ahead, so be it. Yet after three desolate months in Iraq, consumed by homesickness, missing her children and disgusted by what she saw of the war, she deserted while on leave in 2007 and fled with her family to Canada.
Just like her decision to enlist, that gamble hasn't paid off the way she'd hoped. The Canadian government ordered her to leave the country by January 27 or be deported to the United States, where there's a warrant for her arrest. Desertion, according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, carries penalties of up to five years in prison, a dishonorable discharge and, in wartime, a potential death sentence.
As the first known female soldier to walk away from the war in Iraq and fight for residency in Canada, Rivera has become a poster girl for a new generation of war deserters and, in particular, the small colony of American deserters who are living in Toronto and hoping they'll get to stay there.
More than 15,000 soldiers have deserted the Army since 2003, and most are thought to be living in the United States, keeping a low profile and trying to avoid a traffic ticket or anything else that would alert authorities to their presence. Army spokesmen stress that just 1 percent of all soldiers desert and that the problem is not large enough to warrant pursuing them for prosecution. Nevertheless, desertion rates have nearly doubled, rising from 2,610 in 2003 to 4,698 in 2007, and military records show a crackdown on deserters since the war in Iraq began. In both 2001 and 2007, for instance, roughly 4,500 soldiers deserted each year. But while in 2001 only 29 deserters were prosecuted, in 2007 that figure was 108.
The War Resisters Support Campaign estimates that several hundred deserters are living in Canada. Of those, just around 40 have come forward to file asylum claims. The others, living under the radar without legal status and likely waiting to see how their peers' cases pan out, have little to stoke their hopes. While an estimated 25,000 draft-dodgers and deserters migrated from the United States to Canada during the Vietnam War, the notion that Canada will absorb today's deserters as it did their predecessors is dead wrong. The Canadian government—led by conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper—has so far rejected all of the deserters' requests, and the soldiers referred to as "war resisters" by their supporters are awaiting review from the country's federal courts to determine their fate. As the cases make their way through the Canadian court system, Rivera is among the first wave to face impending deportation and a host of others are expected to follow in the coming months.


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[ELVIS]

Sad to hear...

I'm personally on her side and all the others who have fled to Canada...

There's a lawyer in canada who are representing over 100 soldiers who deserted to canada...

The lawyer himself fled to Canada because he thought going to Vietnam was immoral...

I forget his name at the moment...


:elvis:

[FORD]

Sad to hear...

I'm personally on her side and all the others who have fled to Canada...

There's a lawyer in canada who are representing over 100 soldiers who deserted to canada...

The lawyer himself fled to Canada because he thought going to Vietnam was immoral...

I forget his name at the moment...


:elvis:


Jeffry House (http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/front-line/16334-should-canada-accept-american-deserters.html) or Lee Zaslofsky?

No relation to Dr. Greg House - at least that I know of.

[Nitro Express]

It's another Vietnam. Sad.

[ELVIS]

Jeffry House (http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/front-line/16334-should-canada-accept-american-deserters.html) or Lee Zaslofsky?



Yeah, it's Toronto Attorney, Jeffrey House...

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/photos/house_jeffocap000722.jpg


Thanks!

[Angel]

Fuck that noise. This is nothing like Vietnam. These aren't people avoiding a draft. They signed up for the military knowing full well there was a possibility of going to war.

I don't feel sorry for them, nor do I think we should harbour them.

[sierra]

Fuck that noise. This is nothing like Vietnam. These aren't people avoiding a draft. They signed up for the military knowing full well there was a possibility of going to war.

I don't feel sorry for them, nor do I think we should harbour them.

Fucking A Right!

[FORD]

Fuck that noise. This is nothing like Vietnam. These aren't people avoiding a draft. They signed up for the military knowing full well there was a possibility of going to war.

I don't feel sorry for them, nor do I think we should harbour them.

This is completely off topic, but have you considered the irony of having your location listed as "The Flatlands", right below your current avatar? http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/teufel/d025.gif

[Nickdfresh]

Fuck that noise. This is nothing like Vietnam. These aren't people avoiding a draft. They signed up for the military knowing full well there was a possibility of going to war.

I don't feel sorry for them, nor do I think we should harbour them.

A very key distinction...

They "volunteered," and were not drafted into the infantry...

[Nitro Express]

Vietnam had a draft and more carnage but it's like Vietnam because nobody is behind the war. They know it has nothing to do with keeping the US safe. Our borders are wide open and armed thugs come across all the time. People don't trust the govt. anymore.

[ELVIS]

Most that deserted initially bought into the weapons of mass destruction bullshit, as did I, and wanted to do the right thing...

When they realised it was a lie and they were betrayed, who wouldn't want to get the hell out of there ???


:elvis:

[alicebowie]

I would have liked to see Sarge's opinion on the story he posted.
There will always be individuals who volunteer for duty and then
want out.Whether there is any action going on or it is peace time.
Some of these deserters are just using the unjustness of this war
as an excuse to avoid fulfilling that they made. They weren't forced
to join they volunteered.It's not the same as getting drafted against
their will.And as far as the ones that were in before the war and had
to stay , they should have thought about the possibility they might
see action. The only thing this war has in common with Viet Nam
is the unpopularity. There were deserters and anti- war protesters
during WWII. Some felt it wasn't our business.Even after Pearl Harbor
was invaded.

[Sarge]

Vietnam
------------
There is something somewhat noble about not doing what you feel is morally wrong. I don't see anything wrong with these people not reporting for duty and deciding to go to Canada. That is, if you were drafted.
It's our civic duty to defend out country, but it's also our civic duty of our citizens to hold our government accountable when we making poor decisions and going down the wrong path.

Iraq deserters
--------------
How many of these people joined the military when we were at war?
It's been 6 years now!
Did they think that war wouldn't be a possibility, when we were currently engaged in 2 of them?
If you volunteered for active duty, which ALL of them did, then it's your obligation to report for war. It's part of the job. It's part of the military's job to prosecute those who don't. You can't have an effective military when soldiers are allowed to do whatever they want.
That doesn't mean that you have to agree with every decision that the military makes. It doesn't have to change your belief structure. It's about honoring a commitment of service.

Breasts,
Sarge

[ELVIS]

You're right...

My dad did 30 years in the service and served with dignity and respect and was in Vietnam...

But the part about the bullshit weapons of mass destruction still eats at me. My dad is very passive about it...

I'd rather Bush had just told the truth, that we're taking Sadam out and going to try to instate some democracy in the middle east to be fair with, or even control oil distribution, but I guess that's a wild dream...

I dunno...


:elvis:

[alicebowie]

Vietnam
------------
There is something somewhat noble about not doing what you feel is morally wrong. I don't see anything wrong with these people not reporting for duty and deciding to go to Canada. That is, if you were drafted.
It's our civic duty to defend out country, but it's also our civic duty of our citizens to hold our government accountable when we making poor decisions and going down the wrong path.

Iraq deserters
--------------
How many of these people joined the military when we were at war?
It's been 6 years now!
Did they think that war wouldn't be a possibility, when we were currently engaged in 2 of them?
If you volunteered for active duty, which ALL of them did, then it's your obligation to report for war. It's part of the job. It's part of the military's job to prosecute those who don't. You can't have an effective military when soldiers are allowed to do whatever they want.
That doesn't mean that you have to agree with every decision that the military makes. It doesn't have to change your belief structure. It's about honoring a commitment of service.

Breasts,
Sarge
Exactly my point. You volunteer , you fulfill your commitment or pay
the price. If a soldier said fuck this, it's wrong but took a stand and
didn't run I could understand.Even if they said they were scared but
didn't run.

[Nitro Express]

I like the military oath that all who sign up swear. They swear and oath to defend the US Constitution. So if the Commander and Chief is no longer following the US Constitution, then I would say the soldiers are within their rights as individuals to refuse to serve. On the other hand is the Commander and Chief is following the US Constitution then not serving would be abandoment of duty.

It's all what orders you are following and Bush rolled over so many parts of the US Constitution. Another problem is the current President never produced a birth certificate to proof he's a natural born citizen. Of course the Supreme Court refused to open any cases brought up about this the simple fact that this will be an issue as times become harder and the president less popular.

So war and service is one thing and whether it's constitutional is another. That's really the main question here and why we live in dangerous times.

[FORD]

If you have ever read the PNAC agenda, you would know that this goes way beyond oil or the myth of "spreading Democracy in the middle east".

Basically it comes down to a handful paranoid Likud assholes in Israel, and their neocon PNAC counterparts in the US. They don't want any challenge to US/Israeli supremacy in the reason. Iraq supposedly had the "4th largest military on the planet" before Poppy's invasion, (though I don't know who exactly was counting) and thus they considered him a "potential" threat, even though his defensive capabilities were a shell of what they were before Poppy's invasion, or a lengthy war between Iraq and Iran.

They knew Saddam was not presently a threat. The UN inspections in the late 90's established that, as well as the second round of UN inspections in the months just before Chimpy's invasion. They didn't care. But they knew the American people wouldn't buy their half-assed case as it was. So they capitalized on the 9-11 fear propaganda.

Unfortunately, that's how they recruited a lot of people into this goddamn war. "Sign up and go kill them goddamn terrorists!!". And while Sarge certainly makes a valid point about fulfilling obligations, once you have signed on the dotted line, the BCE shouldn't have used false pretenses to start a war, nor to get volunteers for it.

[Nitro Express]

The military is a big machine with individual soldiers serving as parts of the machine. If the mechanical parts don't do their duty then the machine breaks down and doesn't work. Doing your duty is important.

The big question is whether the machine is ordered by someone who is following the US Constitution. The soldiers swear and oath to the Constitution. Such a mess should also be in the minds of the US citizens who vote. Putting the wrong people in office can abuse the machine.

[Nitro Express]

There is also the opportunity cost of freedom of choice. You go desert and go awol you can be labeled as a coward. You can be thrown in jail. In the old days they shot or hung you. Or you can escape a bad system you no longer wanted to be a part of and started a new life. It's all relative and there is consequences. If the people view the war as a mistake they will welcome you eventually but if the people view you as a yellow belly coward then they will fucking tar and feather you. Plus, even if the people welcome you, Uncle Sam may still hunt you down.

[ELVIS]

Iraq supposedly had the "4th largest military on the planet" before Poppy's invasion, (though I don't know who exactly was counting)

It's not size that matters...:D

"Poppy" mowed 'em down while in retreat and got the hell out of there...

A good move if you ask me...


:elvis:

[FORD]

It's not size that matters...:D

"Poppy" mowed 'em down while in retreat and got the hell out of there...

A good move if you ask me...


:elvis:

Compared to what his idiot son did, perhaps. But it was still completely unnecessary. Especially since Poppy's own ambassador April Glaspie gave Saddam the green light to roll into Kuwait, who -as it turns out - were actually slant-drilling into Iraqi oil fields at the time, giving Saddam a legitimate reason to be pissed off at them.

[Kristy]

I would have liked to see Sarge's opinion on the story he posted.

Some of these deserters are just using the unjustness of this war
as an excuse to avoid fulfilling that they made...they should have thought about the possibility they might see action.

Exactly! While I will never agree with Bush's War - and this is Bush's War no matter who is in Office - I have little respect for a deserter. While never serving myself I'm sure the US Government made it crystal clear what might happen to you (i.e., advanced forms of death) when you sign be be in the military. In other words, they knew the shit they were getting into and people like Jeffery House are total assholes for telling them otherwise.

Iraq is America's Viet Nam of the 21st Century and to see the needless waste of life for oil greed embarrasses me as an American. But again, when you sign up to join you're in for the long haul no matter if the situation is war or peacetime; it's like a doctor walking out on your open heart surgery because the sight of human organs grosses him the fuck out. Little respect for these people, indeed.

[ELVIS]

Just listen to the beverly Hillbillies theme song...

Black gold, Texas tea...


Sad but true...


:elvis:

[mwsully]

Exactly my point. You volunteer , you fulfill your commitment or pay
the price. If a soldier said fuck this, it's wrong but took a stand and
didn't run I could understand.Even if they said they were scared but
didn't run.

So you're saying that the people who volunteered and went to Iraq without proper protective clothing and armor plating for the vehicles just have to accept that, because they volunteered? Or that the many men and women who developed Gulf War Syndrome in the first Gulf War have to accept that too because they volunteered, especially when for many years the military denied the sickness as real? How about the major overtime our soldiers have had to put in over in Iraq?

How about having to invade a country that did not threaten us?

Military recruiters are just as slick as any salesperson, AND when one comes from a poor, uneducated family with little options, they feel it's their ticket to an education, better life, etc. Not to mention how recruiters go to high schools to drum up business. They make one think that "it's not a job, it's an adventure". How gullible can teenagers be? Very.

Give me a good cause and I'll fight for it; the U.S. has not fought for a good cause since maybe WWII, and even that is a little sketchy as to how we entered into it.

Until the military tells it like it is, until they provide adequate protection and medical care, until they admit to their wrongs immediately after they commit them, and until they treat their veterans with more respect, then maybe--maybe, I might see these deserters as law breakers.

[BITEYOASS]

It seems to be a dumb idea to desert to Canada when the PM is pals with the Chimp. I did my obligation in Iraq, and hoped like hell I wouldn't be called up again after the IRR portion of my contract ended. If that had happened, then I would have smoked a joint and walked the streets of a party town naked, rather than do something stupid like desertion.

[Angel]

So you're saying that the people who volunteered and went to Iraq without proper protective clothing and armor plating for the vehicles just have to accept that, because they volunteered? Or that the many men and women who developed Gulf War Syndrome in the first Gulf War have to accept that too because they volunteered, especially when for many years the military denied the sickness as real? How about the major overtime our soldiers have had to put in over in Iraq?

How about having to invade a country that did not threaten us?

Military recruiters are just as slick as any salesperson, AND when one comes from a poor, uneducated family with little options, they feel it's their ticket to an education, better life, etc. Not to mention how recruiters go to high schools to drum up business. They make one think that "it's not a job, it's an adventure". How gullible can teenagers be? Very.

Give me a good cause and I'll fight for it; the U.S. has not fought for a good cause since maybe WWII, and even that is a little sketchy as to how we entered into it.

Until the military tells it like it is, until they provide adequate protection and medical care, until they admit to their wrongs immediately after they commit them, and until they treat their veterans with more respect, then maybe--maybe, I might see these deserters as law breakers.

so, you think another fucking country should have to take them in and support them?

[alicebowie]

So you're saying that the people who volunteered and went to Iraq without proper protective clothing and armor plating for the vehicles just have to accept that, because they volunteered? Or that the many men and women who developed Gulf War Syndrome in the first Gulf War have to accept that too because they volunteered, especially when for many years the military denied the sickness as real? How about the major overtime our soldiers have had to put in over in Iraq?

How about having to invade a country that did not threaten us?

Military recruiters are just as slick as any salesperson, AND when one comes from a poor, uneducated family with little options, they feel it's their ticket to an education, better life, etc. Not to mention how recruiters go to high schools to drum up business. They make one think that "it's not a job, it's an adventure". How gullible can teenagers be? Very.

Give me a good cause and I'll fight for it; the U.S. has not fought for a good cause since maybe WWII, and even that is a little sketchy as to how we entered into it.

Until the military tells it like it is, until they provide adequate protection and medical care, until they admit to their wrongs immediately after they commit them, and until they treat their veterans with more respect, then maybe--maybe, I might see these deserters as law breakers.
Since we already have a past history of participating in unjust actions
that everyone is aware of (Viet Nam ) they knew there was a possibility
it might happen again. When you sign those papers you agree to do as
you're told reguardless of your opinion.

[mwsully]

so, you think another fucking country should have to take them in and support them?

That wasn't my point; my point was focused on conditions in which someone is justified to break a contract.

Whether or not Canada allows them to stay, I have no opinion on that.

[mwsully]

Since we already have a past history of participating in unjust actions
that everyone is aware of (Viet Nam ) they knew there was a possibility
it might happen again. When you sign those papers you agree to do as
you're told reguardless of your opinion.

Unfortunately though, not everyone has foresight enough, especially 18-19 year-olds. And unfortunately, most young people do not thoughtfully consider their options when graduating high school. I would also say most young people who go into the military see the government as trustworthy enough, i.e. they'll uphold their side of the contract.

I stand what I said before: the military is a business and they will say whatever attracts young people: opportunity, money, prestige, respect and adventure.

I'm not saying entering the military is bad, but I think they need to be clearly upfront and tell it like it is to prospective students. Maybe then they'll able to separate those who are dedicated and those who were clearly disillusioned.

[Nickdfresh]

Since we already have a past history of participating in unjust actions
that everyone is aware of (Viet Nam ) they knew there was a possibility
it might happen again. When you sign those papers you agree to do as
you're told reguardless of your opinion.


There was a draft during Vietnam which changes things drastically...

I think we could make the argument that if we had a draft now, the retarded second Gulf War would never have happened, even with the Freedom Fries clamor of chickenhawks everywhere...

This is why I believe we should still have a limited conscription/public service where young men and women must either serve in the Nat'l Guard or Reserves on a limited basis, or do some sort of public service...

[mwsully]

Exactly! While I will never agree with Bush's War - and this is Bush's War no matter who is in Office - I have little respect for a deserter. While never serving myself I'm sure the US Government made it crystal clear what might happen to you (i.e., advanced forms of death) when you sign be be in the military. In other words, they knew the shit they were getting into and people like Jeffery House are total assholes for telling them otherwise.



Iraq is America's Viet Nam of the 21st Century and to see the needless waste of life for oil greed embarrasses me as an American. But again, when you sign up to join you're in for the long haul no matter if the situation is war or peacetime; it's like a doctor walking out on your open heart surgery because the sight of human organs grosses him the fuck out. Little respect for these people, indeed.

Kristy, I'm sure you've seen the military commercials where the guy rockclimbs an seemingly impossible mountain and then once to the summit, he transforms into a suited military soldier? How is that full disclosure?
Have you seen military recruiters in action? They are up there with car salesmen, maybe better.

How can we talk about deserters upholding their contract when the U.S. government clearly has not? Again, from the lack of armor-plated vehicles and bullet-proof vests, government cover-up of Gulf War Syndrome, and inadequate support for veterans, our government broke the contract.

[Nickdfresh]

How can we talk about deserters upholding their contract when the U.S. government clearly has not? Again, from the lack of armor-plated vehicles and bullet-proof vests, government cover-up of Gulf War Syndrome, and inadequate support for veterans, our government broke the contract.

There is no "contract" regarding the quality of armored vehicles nor body armor. There have always been fuck-ups although the attack on Iraq and the resulting Operation Clusterfuck for the years following certainly ranks as one of the biggest US military blunders. However, there have always been mistakes and I don't believe soldiers should basically be able to quit because things are bad. That would completely undermine good-order and military discipline, especially when those soldiers volunteered and there attack on Iraq was legitimized by the "authorization to use force." Something that I believe SHOULD be against US law, but isn't. I think we should only allow military operations on a certain strategic level other than say localized small-scale counterterrorist operations and aid programs with the declaration of war by Congress...

Having said that, the Bush Admin was almost criminal in its incompetence and Rumsfled was the singular biggest fucking disaster this country ever had at SOD and certainly heads should have rolled. What's interesting is that the War was "saved" in the "Surge" by people who were the dissenters, or were against it from the outset and were crying bloody-murder over the militaries singularly ignorant conduct of the Iraqi Occupation until things changed in 2006, but only as the Democrats took over Congress and it was clear the obstinate dickheads in the Bush Admin were desperate to "change course" fucking FINALLY after a clueless conduct of something they clearly had no idea about...

[alicebowie]

There was a draft during Vietnam which changes things drastically...

I think we could make the argument that if we had a draft now, the retarded second Gulf War would never have happened, even with the Freedom Fries clamor of chickenhawks everywhere...

This is why I believe we should still have a limited conscription/public service where young men and women must either serve in the Nat'l Guard or Reserves on a limited basis, or do some sort of public service...

I'm not getting your logic.How would having a draft have prevented the
second gulf war? I know one politician made some comment that the
congress would have thought twice about approving an invasion if there
was a draft because their kids might be drafted.Politicians have always
been able to pull strings to keep their children from serving.

[Nickdfresh]

I'm not getting your logic.How would having a draft have prevented the
second gulf war? I know one politician made some comment that the
congress would have thought twice about approving an invasion if there
was a draft because their kids might be drafted.Politicians have always
been able to pull strings to keep their children from serving.

Yes, but voters get pissed when their kids are sent to shitholes. This was illustrated during Vietnam, when mass-protests against the War virtually stopped overnight after the repeal of the Draft in 1973. Young male college-age kids are also a big group that one wants to lull into apathy, and doing things like drafting them and making them pay for your shitty policies is also a big political gamble...And yes, politicians can pull strings, but their kids not serving when everyone else is can also become a very negative entitlement campaign issue...

[MUSICMANN]

The only thing that turned this war in Iraq into a clusterfuck , is IRAN, period. You can agree or disagree on why and the reasons for going there, and even question Bush's policies. The thing you can't do is turn a blind eye on Iran's involvement.

They have funneled more weapons, explosives and soilders into Iraq, and it's all because they themselves do not ever want to see a democratic Iraq. The hardliners in Iran, the people of power are like everyone else that is in control. Their main fear, is of course, losing power. In which is all likely with the spread of democracy in that region.

The day we went into Iraq and took Saddam out of power the people were rejoicing. Do you honestly think that those people didn't feel a huge release of oppression being lifted off them.

If it wasn't for outside interference, this war in Iraq would have been a monumentous success and would have been over 6 years ago. They may have had some infighting going on between the Sunni's and Shiite, only because the Sunni's had lost their total control over the country.

Still though, the war is what it is, and compared to all other US wars, the amount of deaths when compared to the length of time involved, is a still an incrediable feat, even though that low of a number doesn't and shouldn't bode well for any family that had to endure a death of a loved one.

I am a firm believer that the military doesn't try and pull anything over anyone's eye's when enlisting. When you volenteer for the military, does that man or woman actually think that all they are required to do is travel to some other part of the world without the risk of seeing conflict to carry out their tour of duty.

Do they actually believe that they signed up for library duty. If i decide to go into law enforcement, i am atleast smart enough to know, someday i may have to draw my weapon and kill someone.

Remember, A warrior prays for peace. A true warrior places him or herself in harms way to defend, protect or save others even if they are strangers and even at the cost of the warrior’s own life.

So to all the deserters, you are scum and do not represents what makes this country great.

[LoungeMachine]

The only thing that turned this war in Iraq into a clusterfuck , is IRAN, period. .

Bullshit, moron.

Disbanding the Iraqi Army, and sending them out into the country armed with no jobs, money or future was a mistake...

NOT listening to Gen Eric Shinseki was a MAJOR mistake.

Not planning for the occupation was a mistake.

Giving the JOBS to American contractors, and Syrian Slave Laborers was a mistake. Should have given the jobs, money, and sweat equity to the PEOPLE of Iraq.

Not taking care of the INFRASTRUCTURE was a mistake.

Securing the oil feilds, but not the ammo dumps was a mistake.

So take your period, and shove it up your ass.

:gulp:

Idiot.

[MUSICMANN]

Bullshit, moron.

Disbanding the Iraqi Army, and sending them out into the country armed with no jobs, money or future was a mistake...

NOT listening to Gen Eric Shinseki was a MAJOR mistake.

Not planning for the occupation was a mistake.

Giving the JOBS to American contractors, and Syrian Slave Laborers was a mistake. Should have given the jobs, money, and sweat equity to the PEOPLE of Iraq.

Not taking care of the INFRASTRUCTURE was a mistake.

Securing the oil feilds, but not the ammo dumps was a mistake.

So take your period, and shove it up your ass.

:gulp:

Idiot.

Once again you seem to just amaze me with your insight. The rebuilding of infrastructure, the helping of getting the new government in place and the overall rebuilding and leaving Iraq was hindered and made into a cluster fuck, because of outside intervention from from Iran and their crony Al-Sadr and his thugs.

All this mass confusion and roadside bombing's were because of an outside influence that can directly be linked to Iran, Period. And you can shove that up your ASS!

[LoungeMachine]

:rolleyes:

Yes, Iran disbanded the Iraqi Army...

Yes, Iran hired Blackwater

Yes, Iran failed to supply uparmored Humvees.


Typical RePuke response. Blame the boogie man for your own fuckups.

BushCO failed to give our troops the planning, support, and tools needed to secure the occupation.

Who should have secured the borders?


:gulp:

moron

[MUSICMANN]

[QUOTE=LoungeMachine;1333673]:rolleyes:

Yes, Iran disbanded the Iraqi Army...

Yes, Iran hired Blackwater

Yes, Iran failed to supply uparmored Humvees.


Typical RePuke response. Blame the boogie man for your own fuckups.

BushCO failed to give our troops the planning, support, and tools needed to secure the occupation.

Who should have secured the borders?


Are just retarded? the boogyman. Dude for someone who thinks they are so smart , you are a dumbass. Those things have nothing in the world to do with Iran's involvement with the war in Iraq.

All the major unrest in that country can be linked to Iran and Al-Sadr. I'm not sure, but i will guess that over 90% of roadside bombs that has killed most of American soilders have been carried out by Al-Sadr's men. Most of the explosives used in those bombs came from Iran as well as most weapons.

Where do you think Al-Sadr is at right now, you guessed it, Iran. Yes we went in and defeated Iraq's army, but that didn't cause the unrest and violence that has plagued the country for the last 6 years.

All the tools were given to the military. Yes once the shitstorm that came about from the daily roadside bombs and suicide bombers started, more armor was needed, but it wouldn't have been needed if there wouldn't have been outside interference.

What is happening today in Iraq should have been happening years ago. Violence is almost non exsistent and the government, the Sunni's and Shiite's should have been doing what they are doing now. Compromising and working for a common goal.

All that is happening, could have happened if it were not for Iran and outside interference. the problem you're having is that you just can't and never will admit, it could have been a great success for Bush.

[FORD]

Al Sadr is a Shia NATIONALIST. He doesn't want Iran running Iraq, he wants Iraqi Shias running Iraq. Or rather what he considers the Shia territory since "Iraq" was an artificial construct of the British Empire, and the nationalists in the Sunni, Kurd, and Shia camps would really rather be on their own anyway, much like the situation in the 1990's when the Commies pulled out of what was then called "Yugoslavia"

[LoungeMachine]

LMAO @ MUSICWOMANN

Get your fact straight before you mouth off.

:gulp:

[Va Beach VH Fan]

I'd rather Bush had just told the truth, that we're taking Sadam out and going to try to instate some democracy in the middle east to be fair with, or even control oil distribution, but I guess that's a wild dream...

Perhaps if Bush himself had gone to Vietnam, instead of having Daddy pull some strings and get him into the Alabama National Guard, his perception would have been much different and he would have thought twice before he sent troops into Iraq....

[LoungeMachine]

All the major unrest in that country can be linked to Iran and Al-Sadr. I'm not sure, but i will guess that over 90% of roadside bombs that has killed most of American soilders have been carried out by Al-Sadr's men. .

:rolleyes:

Not sure.

I will guess.


Pretty much sums up your entire "theory"

:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

Perhaps if Bush himself had gone to Vietnam, instead of having Daddy pull some strings and get him into the Alabama National Guard, his perception would have been much different and he would have thought twice before he sent troops into Iraq....

Couldn't agree MORE.

:gulp:

Combine that, with the NEED to show daddy how a war in the desert is REALLY fought......

sad.

[MUSICMANN]

Al Sadr is a Shia NATIONALIST. He doesn't want Iran running Iraq, he wants Iraqi Shias running Iraq. Or rather what he considers the Shia territory since "Iraq" was an artificial construct of the British Empire, and the nationalists in the Sunni, Kurd, and Shia camps would really rather be on their own anyway, much like the situation in the 1990's when the Commies pulled out of what was then called "Yugoslavia"



You are correct. Still doesn't change the fact that his malitia has caused the most unrest, deaths and violence against the american military and Iraq's own people than anything else. He has a true hatred for any outside intervention and was probably dancing in the streets when Saddam was hung.

His invovlement with Iran though seems purely out of the situation that presented itself when we decided to go into Iraq. He couldn't rule Iraq with Saddam there. Saddam hated Iran, and once we removed him, the partnership between Al-Sadr and Iran was made to get us out.

This is why Al-Sadr has taken haven in Iran when major fighting has broken out in Sadr city and surrounding areas. Now that things have calmed down and Obama has set a miltiary drawdown plan he has called for his men to lay down their arms.

How much control he still wants and how much chaos he still may unleash is anyone's guess. The point i'm trying to get across is that, this war would have probably went to plan, if it were not for Iran and Al-Sadr's interference.

Still doesn't change the fact that the decision to go into Iraq in the first place should or shouldn't have been made.

[LoungeMachine]

his malitia has caused .

His wha?

:gulp:

Hard to take you serious in here when you should be browsing the Hooked On Phonics Forums.....

[LoungeMachine]

The only thing that turned this war in Iraq into a clusterfuck , is IRAN, period. .






You are correct. Still doesn't change the fact that his malitia has caused the most unrest, deaths and violence against the american military and Iraq's own people than anything else. .


So first you say it is IRAN, period

Now you have changed to it's Al Sadr that has caused "the most" damage.


:rolleyes:

[Va Beach VH Fan]

I am a firm believer that the military doesn't try and pull anything over anyone's eye's when enlisting. When you volenteer for the military, does that man or woman actually think that all they are required to do is travel to some other part of the world without the risk of seeing conflict to carry out their tour of duty.

Dude, I don't know you from Adam, but that statement sounds like it's coming from someone that hasn't spent a day in the military....

[MUSICMANN]

His wha?

:gulp:

Hard to take you serious in here when you should be browsing the Hooked On Phonics Forums.....



Once again, dickhead, when you have nothing to say constructive you come across with insults. Yes, i made a typing mistake. I think the word i was looking for is Militia, not malitia.

Also, i never said Al-Sadr wanted Iran to run Iraq or he was Iranian or whatever you fucking come up with in that melon of yours. I said that he had a common goal with Iran. They don't want to see a demcratic Iraq and Sadr wants America out.

This is were your chaos and violence came from. This is what caused the most deaths, american and Iraq civilian.

[LoungeMachine]

Dude, I don't know you from Adam, but that statement sounds like it's coming from someone that hasn't spent a day in the military....

He didn't "volenteer" :D

:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

Once again, dickhead, when you have nothing to say constructive you come across with insults. Yes, i made a typing mistake. I think the word i was looking for is Militia, not malitia.

.

Pot? Meet kettle. LMAO





.

Also, i never said Al-Sadr wanted Iran to run Iraq or he was Iranian or whatever you fucking come up with in that melon of yours. I said that he had a common goal with Iran. They don't want to see a demcratic Iraq and Sadr wants America out.

.

WTF are you even trying to say now? Your first post said Iran period Nothing about "malitias"

So you went back and changed your story, and I called you out on it. Welcome to The Front Line, may I help you?



This is were your chaos and violence came from. This is what caused the most deaths, american and Iraq civilian.

I wish you knew what you were talking about, it would make all of this much more interesting to me.

:gulp:

[MUSICMANN]

Dude, I don't know you from Adam, but that statement sounds like it's coming from someone that hasn't spent a day in the military....



I will honestly say i haven't. I look back and if i would have, i probably would have been due to the age i was at that time in the first Iraq war.

Why would you come down on me for that statement. There's alot people who think that signing up for military service doesn't include the possibility of going to combat. They think it's for school and being able to travel the world on Uncle Sam's dime.

My father was a marine and i hold anyone and everyone that has wore an American uniform and served this country in the highest regards.

[Nickdfresh]

The only thing that turned this war in Iraq into a clusterfuck , is Bush's policies. .

Good point!



They have funneled more weapons, explosives and soilders into Iraq, and it's all because they themselves do not ever want to see a democratic Iraq. The hardliners in Iran, the people of power are like everyone else that is in control. Their main fear, is of course, losing power. In which is all likely with the spread of democracy in that region.

The day we went into Iraq and took Saddam out of power the people were rejoicing. Do you honestly think that those people didn't feel a huge release of oppression being lifted off them.

If it wasn't for outside interference, this war in Iraq would have been a monumentous success and would have been over 6 years ago. They may have had some infighting going on between the Sunni's and Shiite, only because the Sunni's had lost their total control over the country.

Iran was backing the same Shiite militia gov't we were, pinhead...

They're the "big winners" because US policy was incomprehensible and utterly fucking self-defeating...

You can't have it both ways.


Still though, the war is what it is, and compared to all other US wars, the amount of deaths when compared to the length of time involved, is a still an incrediable feat, even though that low of a number doesn't and shouldn't bode well for any family that had to endure a death of a loved one.

Considering the the US suffered less than 200 battle deaths in conventional ground combat, then went on to suffer 4000 more in a guerrilla war, I
'd say you're way overly optimistic. Especially since the Surge has FAILED in its main stated goal of allowing for Iraqi National Reconciliation...


I am a firm believer that the military doesn't try and pull anything over anyone's eye's when enlisting. When you volenteer for the military, does that man or woman actually think that all they are required to do is travel to some other part of the world without the risk of seeing conflict to carry out their tour of duty.

How would you know?


Do they actually believe that they signed up for library duty. If i decide to go into law enforcement, i am atleast smart enough to know, someday i may have to draw my weapon and kill someone.

But you didn't, and won't...


Remember, A warrior prays for peace. A true warrior places him or herself in harms way to defend, protect or save others even if they are strangers and even at the cost of the warrior’s own life.

So to all the deserters, you are scum and do not represents what makes this country great.

So are the chickenhawk pussies making rah rah macho pro-War statements on the internet...

[LoungeMachine]

Ouch.

Recover from that smackdown, MM.

Excellent points, Nick.

[MUSICMANN]

Pot? Meet kettle. LMAO




WTF are you even trying to say now? Your first post said Iran period Nothing about "malitias"

So you went back and changed your story, and I called you out on it. Welcome to The Front Line, may I help you?



I wish you knew what you were talking about, it would make all of this much more interesting to me.

:gulp:



First, Al-Sadr and his militia got their weapons, training and explosives from Iran. If it wasn't for that, Al-Sadr would have been a dog that was all bark and no bite.
So infact, when i said Iran, period, that's what i was refering to. You just can't accept that Iran and it's dealings with Al-Sadr was the main reason for the escalated violence in Iraq, even though i said that the decision to even go into Iraq was shaky at best.

I also never changed my story and no, you didn't call me out on anything. My first post was a mere summary on my feelings on this subject.

[MUSICMANN]

Ouch.

Recover from that smackdown, MM.

Excellent points, Nick.

I don't have to recover from nothing. We also funded the taliban, in which Bin Laden was part of during the Russian/Afganistan war. I say so what. Policies come and go like day and night. It's been that way forever.

Doesn't change the fact that Iran and their dealings with Al-Sadr is what caused the most violence and deaths, American and Iraqi alike in this war.

[Nickdfresh]

First, Al-Sadr and his militia got their weapons, training and explosives from Iran. If it wasn't for that, Al-Sadr would have been a dog that was all bark and no bite.
So infact, when i said Iran, period, that's what i was refering to. You just can't accept that Iran and it's dealings with Al-Sadr was the main reason for the escalated violence in Iraq, even though i said that the decision to even go into Iraq was shaky at best.

I also never changed my story and no, you didn't call me out on anything. My first post was a mere summary on my feelings on this subject.


Al Sadr got most of his weapons from Iraqi Army arms dumps and armories that US troops failed to secure, mainly because there were too few of them TO secure Iraq!

[Nickdfresh]

I don't have to recover from nothing. We also funded the taliban, in which Bin Laden was part of during the Russian/Afganistan war. I say so what. Policies come and go like day and night. It's been that way forever.

Doesn't change the fact that Iran and their dealings with Al-Sadr is what caused the most violence and deaths, American and Iraqi alike in this war.


The United States DIDN'T "found" the Taliban, Pakistan did...

And you have no idea what you are talking about. The vast majority of US troops were killed by Sunni insurgents that we have essentially paid and convinced to switch sides and turned on "al Qaida of Iraq" and rejected their terror against Shiite civilians...

Relatively few US service personnel have been killed by Shiites. The Shiite militias were much more effective at ethnic cleansing their neighborhoods of Sunnis and murdering civilians via death squad...

[LoungeMachine]

The only thing that turned this war in Iraq into a clusterfuck , is IRAN, period. .






[

. I'm not sure, but i will guess that over 90% of roadside bombs that has killed most of American soilders have been carried out by Al-Sadr's men. .







I also never changed my story and no, you didn't call me out on anything. My first post was a mere summary on my feelings on this subject.



Sad.


:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

Al Sadr got most of his weapons from Iraqi Army arms dumps and armories that US troops failed to secure, mainly because there were too few of them TO secure Iraq!

Exactly my point earlier.

Most were too busy guarding the oil fields.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

I will honestly say i haven't. I look back and if i would have, i probably would have been due to the age i was at that time in the first Iraq war.

Why would you come down on me for that statement. There's alot people who think that signing up for military service doesn't include the possibility of going to combat. They think it's for school and being able to travel the world on Uncle Sam's dime.

My father was a marine and i hold anyone and everyone that has wore an American uniform and served this country in the highest regards.

I'm not coming down on you, far from it....

In fact, I agree that a lot of times people join the military for other than "combat" reasons...

The fact remains though that I've known several recruiters from my 20 years, and trust me, they're under enormous pressure to fill their quotas, ranging from poor evaluations to demotions....

Now I'll grant you, the vast majority of them have no malicious intent, but there are several details in the recruitment process that they'll fail to mention that will fill that quota, but will also screw the recruit....

A lot of that deals with the recruit's training for his/her MOS or AFSC or Rating, depending on what service.... You may want to join into a certain field, but they'll fudge the truth and instead talk you into field that THEY need to fill, but is normally not only a lousy job, but also doesn't give the recruit any worthwhile training, not only in the military, but any that would be worthwhile in the civilian sector...

And, by the way, it's "Marine", just as it is with "Sailor" or "Soldier' or "Airman".... :D

[alicebowie]

Whether or not to enlist is a major decision in a persons life.
You can't make an educated choice if you don't know the facts.
You must have all the facts. You can't trust someone who has an
agenda to give you all the facts.They might give you their version
of the facts but you need more. When you enlist you give up your normal
rights .You had better be damn sure you know what your signing.
Your life may depend on it.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Whether or not to enlist is a major decision in a persons life.

I know I didn't treat it like that...

Even after doing 20 years, I still have no fucking clue WHY I did it...

[mwsully]

There is no "contract" regarding the quality of armored vehicles nor body armor. There have always been fuck-ups although the attack on Iraq and the resulting Operation Clusterfuck for the years following certainly ranks as one of the biggest US military blunders. However, there have always been mistakes and I don't believe soldiers should basically be able to quit because things are bad. That would completely undermine good-order and military discipline, especially when those soldiers volunteered and there attack on Iraq was legitimized by the "authorization to use force." Something that I believe SHOULD be against US law, but isn't. I think we should only allow military operations on a certain strategic level other than say localized small-scale counterterrorist operations and aid programs with the declaration of war by Congress...

Yeah, you're right. It's just sick to see people put their lives on the line for their country and not get the support and assurance necessary from the government.

Is there anything the government is required to provide when somebody signs up for the military?

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Other than their pay, free (or subsidized) meals, free (or subsidized) housing including utiilities, free travel, etc....

[Nickdfresh]

And veteran's benefits when they're done. Hopefully the soldier elected to get education benefits or received significant bonuses...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Yeah, forgot that one, that's a biggie...

Free medical/dental while you're active duty with your families.... It's not free for retirees, but premiums are much, much less than a regular civilian and the families.... Depending on where you live and where you get your medical care, a lot of stuff is still free...

For example, I'm probably going to get some schnoz surgery done in a couple weeks at a Naval Hospital, and I won't pay a thing....

[BITEYOASS]

There is no reason to desert nowadays. If you desert the military nowadays, then your a fuckin loser! Especially those who joined after the insugency started popping up. And if someone is getting called up after their contract ends, they would be better off smoking a joint or photoshopping themselves fucking a dude. Then report totally stoned or wearing something out of a dance club, they definitely will decide not to send ya to Iraq again after that.

[alicebowie]

There is no reason to desert nowadays. If you desert the military nowadays, then your a fuckin loser! Especially those who joined after the insugency started popping up. And if someone is getting called up after their contract ends, they would be better off smoking a joint or photoshopping themselves fucking a dude. Then report totally stoned or wearing something out of a dance club, they definitely will decide not to send ya to Iraq again after that.

I forgot about the war on drugs way out.Spark up some doobage , piss
in a cup and you're home free.Having a dishonorable discharge won't
affect your employment chances for most jobs if you don't tell them you served at all.

[alicebowie]

And veteran's benefits when they're done. Hopefully the soldier elected to get education benefits or received significant bonuses...
After Viet Nam they changed the rules on who's eligable for benefits and
who isn't .You must spend 24 complete months of consecutive active duty to
qualify.If you're a reservist and get called to active duty and serve even
one day less than 24 complete you're assed out.There is girl in my home town that's been fighting for her benefits for 2 years and she was only 1 day short.
If it doesn't say discharged early for the good of the service on your dd-214
you're screwed.

[hideyoursheep]

Jesus...

There have always been deserters, even in peacetime.

Don't blame it all on Iraq just because some knucklehead gets in there and decides the military isn't for him or her, then decides they're just going to quit! Many of them are trying to use it as an excuse, and would have left anyway.

Fuck em. Let 'em go! I wouldn't want them in my squad!!

[hideyoursheep]

Who shot me in the face?!

[LoungeMachine]

After Viet Nam they changed the rules on who's eligable for benefits and
who isn't .You must spend 24 complete months of consecutive active duty to
qualify.If you're a reservist and get called to active duty and serve even
one day less than 24 complete you're assed out.There is girl in my home town that's been fighting for her benefits for 2 years and she was only 1 day short.
If it doesn't say discharged early for the good of the service on your dd-214
you're screwed.

Oh jesus,

It's cadaverdog again

How many aliases you need, cadaverdouche?

:gulp:

[Blaze]

Who shot me in the face?!

'Twas I. Took all three of my shots.

I also got the other eye shot for lounge, not sure who got the first.

[hideyoursheep]

I also got the other eye shot for lounge, not sure who got the first.

:D


:hee:

[Seshmeister]

The Taliban must be delighted that at least one of your 5 foot tall girls isn't going to be terrifying them in Afghanistan...

[thome]

Perhaps if Bush himself had gone to Vietnam, instead of having Daddy pull some strings and get him into the Alabama National Guard, his perception would have been much different and he would have thought twice before he sent troops into Iraq....


No one cares what people do if they dodge the draft.... get thier dads to pay them out of combat pay...?WTF ever...Just these liberal fags who want to defend them...Only the stupid loud mouthed douches.

Running is different than dishonouring the uniform or this country. Running ,sais nothing about war or peace. It's a choice.... some political agenda assholes make it into a political -THING- it isn't .........at all.

No soldier cares if some MF runs to canada... if you pissy fags ...not you (VBVF)..... had any idea about what the bullet can do to a MF then the understanding comes forth.

The sad thing is when the MF runs and gets caught, maybe he then knows why he ran.... to stay alive and get owned another way, dead in jail, dead on the dirt field of woe with all that recycleable gear.... same thing...yes/no..? then people say they shouldn't pay for thier breaking of the draft laws. ???

That they were correct to run.... I am a concientios objector!!!! ...no YOU ARE a fool, but not a bad person,, just a person who is STILL, on the lamb and too stupid to keep thier head down...

Dumbst!t is Dumbsh!t if you honor your country or run to the north...hmmmm

You acomplish nothing by running, if you get caught..NOTHING!!!

I wouldn't even care if I was standing with 50 troops and a thousand came over the hill towards me, I would do what ever I wanted to, even if every one of my squad retreated without orders...

People should be able to run, then they must run forever...no biggie just a choice of time.

[thome]

Oh and,,,, P.S. Bush, has served this country for 40 YEARS and served to the commitment that he became THE MOST COMPLETE servant of this country ..The President of the United States..so take your Bush paid out VN retoric and Shove it up your ass..pathetic tripe of the weekminded and stupid.

[LoungeMachine]

Served?

You mean nearly destroyed.

:gulp:

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Oh and,,,, P.S. Bush, has served this country for 40 YEARS and served to the commitment that he became THE MOST COMPLETE servant of this country ..The President of the United States..so take your Bush paid out VN retoric and Shove it up your ass..pathetic tripe of the weekminded and stupid.

Are you referring to George "W" Bush ??

[FORD]

Chimpy "served" this country? :confused12:

How, exactly?

If you mean that 2 year stint in the Texas/Alabama National Guard, half of which he can't account for, OK, there's arguably 2 out of 40. Where's the other 38?

[Va Beach VH Fan]

No one cares what people do if they dodge the draft.... get thier dads to pay them out of combat pay...?WTF ever...Just these liberal fags who want to defend them...Only the stupid loud mouthed douches.

I would agree that there have been numerous ways that people have gotten out of combat action and/or military service, whether that be via college (Clinton), medical deferrments (Cheney) or connections (Bush)....

My point, specifically with Bush, was that perhaps if he had gone into Vietnam, and thus seeing the horrors of war, he would have paused, or even decided against, sending troops into Iraq for anything other than certifiable evidence, rather than the stuff that was presented in '02/'03....

[LoungeMachine]

LMAO @ VH trying to explain anything to thome.....

May as well get cats to walk in a parade, about as effective.

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

After Viet Nam they changed the rules on who's eligable for benefits and
who isn't .You must spend 24 complete months of consecutive active duty to
qualify.If you're a reservist and get called to active duty and serve even
one day less than 24 complete you're assed out.There is girl in my home town that's been fighting for her benefits for 2 years and she was only 1 day short.
If it doesn't say discharged early for the good of the service on your dd-214
you're screwed.

Reservists have their own set of benefits, and may qualify under the new EXCELLENT Chapter 33 GI Bill...

I encourage anyone who served after September 11th, 2001 to read about their potential educational benefits under this new bill...

And certain less than Honorable Discharges can be later amended...

New GI Bill Overview - Education - Military.com (http://www.military.com/money-for-school/gi-bill/new-gi-bill-overview)

PDF file: http://www.gibill.va.gov/pamphlets/CH33/CH33_Pamphlet.pdf

[Nickdfresh]

After Viet Nam they changed the rules on who's eligable for benefits and
who isn't .You must spend 24 complete months of consecutive active duty to
qualify.If you're a reservist and get called to active duty and serve even
one day less than 24 complete you're assed out.There is girl in my home town that's been fighting for her benefits for 2 years and she was only 1 day short.
If it doesn't say discharged early for the good of the service on your dd-214
you're screwed.

Reservists have their own set of benefits, and may qualify under the new EXCELLENT Chapter 33 GI Bill...

I encourage anyone who served after September 11th, 2001 to read about their potential educational benefits under this new bill...

And certain less than Honorable Discharges can be later amended...

New GI Bill Overview - Education - Military.com (http://www.military.com/money-for-school/gi-bill/new-gi-bill-overview)

PDF file: http://www.gibill.va.gov/pamphlets/CH33/CH33_Pamphlet.pdf

The new bill goes into effect in August 1st of this year, and will pay for the COMPLETE SCHOOLING of veterans who served honorably...

[alicebowie]

Oh jesus,

It's cadaverdog again

How many aliases you need, cadaverdouche?

:gulp:
Everyone here but you is Cadaverdouche. You accuse every other new
poster of being Cadaverdouche. What about the new guy from Canada
that pointed out his use of the letter U in neighbor as being the correct
spelling in Canada not long after you claimed another poster was an
alias for using the U in rumors? Coincidence?Maybe.Maybe not?Why
must you derail this thread with your accusations?Can you dispute
what I said about V.A benefits?No , those are facts.Or are you just
Creating hate and discontent as usual.I've seen your posts.You are
incapable of having a debate without childish name calling.Grow up.

[LoungeMachine]

Everyone here but you is Cadaverdouche. You accuse every other new
poster of being Cadaverdouche. What about the new guy from Canada
that pointed out his use of the letter U in neighbor as being the correct
spelling in Canada not long after you claimed another poster was an
alias for using the U in rumors? Coincidence?Maybe.Maybe not?Why
must you derail this thread with your accusations?Can you dispute
what I said about V.A benefits?No , those are facts.Or are you just
Creating hate and discontent as usual.I've seen your posts.You are
incapable of having a debate without childish name calling.Grow up.

IP's don't lie, cadaverdouche.

The ONLY 3 people I have ever accused of being you, HAVE been your confirmed aliases. It's fact.

:gulp:

idiot.

[FORD]

Oh jesus,

It's cadaverdog again

How many aliases you need, cadaverdouche?

:gulp:

Ah, now that explains the weird post in the "marijuana dollars" thread.

[LoungeMachine]

Ah, now that explains the weird post in the "marijuana dollars" thread.

Yep, and his "you're a shit disturber" comment.

shit disturber is cadaver's favorite comment, and on one here has ever used it other than him.

alicebowie [bastardson, cadaverdog see the pattern? LMAO] also was in the Navy, spent time in Asia, and talks about pot]

But forget all that obvious stuff, his IP matches. :D

:gulp:

He's terrible at creating/hiding aliases. :lol:

[alicebowie]

Reservists have their own set of benefits, and may qualify under the new EXCELLENT Chapter 33 GI Bill...

I encourage anyone who served after September 11th, 2001 to read about their potential educational benefits under this new bill...

And certain less than Honorable Discharges can be later amended...

New GI Bill Overview - Education - Military.com (http://www.military.com/money-for-school/gi-bill/new-gi-bill-overview)

PDF file: http://www.gibill.va.gov/pamphlets/CH33/CH33_Pamphlet.pdf
Has the 24 months of consecutive active duty to qualify for V.A benefits
been changed?If so when?The service member I spoke of served in Iraq.
I'm not disputing your educational benefits.Before 1980 anyone who served
and got an honorable was eligable for V.A medical benefits.After that they
instituted a 24 month consecutive active duty minimum to qualify.

[thome]

~In May 1968, Bush was/became commissioned Officer, Pilot......

[Active and Inactive Reserve since then that be 4D Years ]


~Ran for House of Rep Tex in 1978......

~Worked on his fathers campains .......

~Gov of Tex 1994 reelected 1998 to 2000......

~Then to President 2000 and 2004 thru 2008.

I will let you look up the thousands of days he served exactly what, and the specifics.

I bet you already have a list of the things he did wrong in your eyes and your cronies.

I know you have acieved a much more storied record of public service so lets see it...hmmmmm

[Va Beach VH Fan]

It depends on how many months after 9-11 he served on active duty....

If he served 36 months, he's eligible for 100% of those benefits... I only served 26 until I retired, so I can get 80%, which is still good....

But they changed their minds on transferring the benefits to dependents.... Now, they'll let you do it, but you have to be on active duty as of July 2009, be in for at least 6 years, and obliserv for 4 more.... That royally screws me....

[thome]

I would agree that there have been numerous ways that people have gotten out of combat action and/or military service, whether that be via college (Clinton), medical deferrments (Cheney) or connections (Bush)....

My point, specifically with Bush, was that perhaps if he had gone into Vietnam, and thus seeing the horrors of war, he would have paused, or even decided against, sending troops into Iraq for anything other than certifiable evidence, rather than the stuff that was presented in '02/'03....

I got it.

Nam ain't got sh!t to do with today.....no harsh.....

[alicebowie]

Yep, and his "you're a shit disturber" comment.

shit disturber is cadaver's favorite comment, and on one here has ever used it other than him.

alicebowie [bastardson, cadaverdog see the pattern? LMAO] also was in the Navy, spent time in Asia, and talks about pot]

But forget all that obvious stuff, his IP matches. :D

:gulp:

He's terrible at creating/hiding aliases. :lol:

Your an out and out liar. There is no way my I.p address is the same
as either of these posters.As a matter of fact according to what I've
read Cadaverdog and Bastardsons I.P adresses didn't match.Are you
changing your story now?Where did I say I served in the military?
Another fabrication.Only person to use the term shit disturber?Doubtful.
In real life people use those terms.Here it's trolling.I said I've travelled
the world not just Asia.I talked about pot in a conversation about pot.
Funny you spoke about pot and the quality of B.C bud.Are you who you
say you are.

[LoungeMachine]

Your an out and out liar. .


so says the alias... :D

:gulp:

Give it up, douche.

[ELVIS]

The Taliban must be delighted that at least one of your 5 foot tall girls isn't going to be terrifying them in Afghanistan...

Why are you underestimating a 5ft tall female soldier...

I'll bet she could kick our asses!


:D

[alicebowie]

so says the alias... :D

:gulp:

Give it up, douche.
Cadaverdog has dsl and lives in Bakersfield.Bastardson has dial-up
and lives in San Jose.While I live in the same county as Cadaverdog
I might have the same provider my I.P address couldn't possibly match
because I'm not him.You lied about that to back up your other circumstantial
evidence.Any more lies?

[LoungeMachine]

.Any more lies?

Only you. :D

:gulp:

Move along douche.....

[LoungeMachine]

Why are you underestimating a 5ft tall female soldier...

I'll bet she could kick our asses!


:D

Or at least make you wear a dog collar while she smiles for the camera.

:gulp: