KSM waterboarded 183 times in one month in '03

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Quite the read....

Emptywheel » Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Waterboarded 183 Times in One Month (http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/18/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-was-waterboarded-183-times-in-one-month/)

"The CIA used the waterboard "at least 83 times during August 2002" in the interrogation of Zubaydah. IG Report at 90, and 183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM, see id. at 91."

[Dr. Love]

wow. you have to wonder if a person can become desensitized to that sort of thing at some point and it loses its effectiveness as a torture device.

Also, you have to wonder if a person at some point starts to think they made a huuuuuuge mistake and fucked with the wrong people.

[Seshmeister]

He will have been thinking every time these people water board me another 10 people will be so disgusted that they will join an Al Queda style group.

[Dr. Love]

I don't think that mentality is going to sustain someone for very long

[kwame k]

It's the same old debate, does torture really work and is the information you get the truth. Most experts say it's ineffective but we still use it. At some point isn't that person going to say whatever they have to to make the torture stop?

Nothing that Cheney has said can be verified as being truthful or effective as far as torture goes. National Security BS. The cases that he has cited as torture being effective for stopping terrorist attacks are all very questionable at best.

The enemy combatant status and all the other bullshit that Bush and Co used to circumvent our laws have not been effective in stopping the spread of terrorism. Bush never did what he promised as far as hunting Bin Laden down, no matter what it took and the number of terrorist has not decreased it has increased.:pullinghair:

Just another mess Obama has to clean up.

[FORD]

Those who advocate torture and believe it can actually produce reliable information should look no further than John McCain for their reality check. McCain has admitted that he confessed to being a "war criminal" and denouncing the US under torture.

Now I might believe Grandpa McCain is a bit of an asshole for his total appeasement of the BCE/PNAC agenda for 8 years, or for sucking up to the BCE after the way they personally attacked him in 2000. But do I believe he sold out his country in Vietnam? Of course not. He told his torturers what THEY wanted to hear. As did Khalid Sheik Ron Jeremy, and anybody else who is tortured.

It's a bullshit method, and does nothing except reducing us to the level of the criminal barbarian bastards we claim superiority to.

[hideyoursheep]

Khalid Sheik Ron Jeremy....:lmao:

<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/rosie&#37;20o%20donnell" target="_blank"><img src="http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u69/avil_slare/rosie.jpg" border="0" alt="Rosie O' Donnell Pictures, Images and Photos"/></a>

[Seshmeister]

I don't think that mentality is going to sustain someone for very long

183 times apparently...

[Seshmeister]

Those who advocate torture and believe it can actually produce reliable information should look no further than John McCain for their reality check. McCain has admitted that he confessed to being a "war criminal" and denouncing the US under torture.

Now I might believe Grandpa McCain is a bit of an asshole for his total appeasement of the BCE/PNAC agenda for 8 years, or for sucking up to the BCE after the way they personally attacked him in 2000. But do I believe he sold out his country in Vietnam? Of course not. He told his torturers what THEY wanted to hear. As did Khalid Sheik Ron Jeremy, and anybody else who is tortured.

It's a bullshit method, and does nothing except reducing us to the level of the criminal barbarian bastards we claim superiority to.

All of this plus not only is any 'evidence' you get inadmissible but you also effectively can't prosecute anyone for fucking anything after you torture them.

[Nickdfresh]

It's okay. They didn't learn anything they didn't already know to begin with...

[hideyoursheep]

It's okay. They didn't learn anything they didn't already know to begin with...

Well, they learned he can hold his breath for a VERY, VERY LONG TIME!!!

<object width="320" height="265"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iP0fBJ8DxYM&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iP0fBJ8DxYM&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="320" height="265"></embed></object>

:biggrin:

[Dr. Love]

183 times apparently...

That's a remarkably small number when you consider there was no upper bound to the number of times they could do it.

[kwame k]

Khalid Sheik Ron Jeremy....:lmao:

<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/rosie%20o%20donnell" target="_blank"><img src="http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u69/avil_slare/rosie.jpg" border="0" alt="Rosie O' Donnell Pictures, Images and Photos"/></a>

I don't give a fuck who you are, that's funny, right there.

[hideyoursheep]

That's a remarkably small number when you consider there was no upper bound to the number of times they could do it. Once was enough, and you probably weren't talking afterwards.

That doesn't mean we have to squat to their level.

Now if the CIA went back to using lysergic acid diethylamide, I doubt we would ever have any trouble out of any of them, and some wanna-be terrorists would be more than happy to surrender!

[Seshmeister]

I remember reading though that innocent people ended up committing suicide after being given acid by the CIA in the 50s/60s.

There were CIA teams back then hunting communists etc through sex parties and slipping people acid - sounds like something some burnt out bullshitter would tell you late night in a bar but its actually shown by government documents under freedom of information.

[Seshmeister]

And it didn't give good info.

LSD And The CIA, Part I (http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/lsd09.htm)

[ELVIS]

Yuo fellas know what ??

I don't give a flying fuck about how many times this terrorist has been waterboarded or tortured or whatever...

According to the 9/11 Commission Report he was "the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks."

If that's so, cut his fucking head off as far as I care!

You old pussies are so fucking sensitive towards the enemy...I'd be willing to bet most of you didn't have these passionate feelings towards assholes like Kahlid back when you were 20years old and still had a functioning brain...

Jesus guys, stop trying to prove how caring and passionate you are when there are some actual enemies slowly ploting to kill us...

Fuck 'em!


:elvis:

[sadaist]

I wonder if one word of what we got out of him saved even one innocent life. I just hate seeing a guy wearing his new birthday tie he got from his kids jump from the 98th floor of a building cause it's a better gameplan than burning. Waterboarding? Sheik got off easy. We should have pushed his fat hairy ass out of an airplane as high up as possible so he had a lot of time to think about his impending splat. MEAT BOMB! DIRT TORPEDO! Or pull out a rusty knife & Nick Berg his ass. Maybe dry sponge his head and do the Green Mile shock treatment.

It's not like this guy is proclaiming his innocence in any of this. Fuck him, fuck his rights, fuck giving him a Snuggie to wrap up in during his Quran time, fuck not feeding him certain foods because it's against his religion, fuck everything about this piece of shit.

And as for any future potential terrorists that find out what happened to him...let them be mad as hell....and scared to death.

[Blaze]

WTF, does pleasure kills have to do with being 20, Elvis?

Justice is justice. Termination of life is to be given in a controlled and unemotional manor when law prescribes.
Weren't you one of the one's whining about corporal punishment?

FACT: Torture does not produce reliable results.

Matter of fact, corporal punishment or any punishment, including death or the threat of death, does not produce results if the person truly believes in the justification of the crime. Be it greed or hate or whatever,.....Hell, look how A.T. crucified himself for a deviant belief.

Are you one of the one's that think 9/11 was an inside job???


SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO,
Did this guy do it? Or the goverment???

Just simply :ROLLEYES:

[Blaze]

And it didn't give good info.

LSD And The CIA, Part I (http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/lsd09.htm)

Thanks, that is a pretty interesting link.

[Seshmeister]

.I'd be willing to bet most of you didn't have these passionate feelings towards assholes like Kahlid back when you were 20years old and still had a functioning brain...


No what it is is that your stance on all this stuff is immature.

Once you are older and wiser you realize that the movie action hero stuff isn't the way the real world works. If you do the instinctive thing of kicking this guys ass you actually end up harming yourself more than you ever harm him. You fall right into his trap and that's only with the guilty ones never mind the innocents.

I see you are now focusing on this guy who is one of the very few from Gitmo who appear to be guilty of something. Previously you were saying kill them, torture those bastards about a bunch of people who have been proved to have been completely innocent i.e. the other 95&#37; of the detainees.

So you were completely wrong morally, legally, spiritually and politically then but don't seem to have learned anything from that at all.

[Nickdfresh]

I wonder if one word of what we got out of him saved even one innocent life....


Apparently not, as it seems 9/11 was a one-off event that no other major plots were ever uncovered and halted.

[Nickdfresh]

No what it is is that your stance on all this stuff is immature.

Once you are older and wiser you realize that the movie action hero stuff isn't the way the real world works. If you do the instinctive thing of kicking this guys ass you actually end up harming yourself more than you ever harm him...Previously you were saying kill them, torture those bastards about a bunch of people who have been proved to have been completely innocent i.e. the other 95&#37; of the detainees.

So you were completely wrong morally, legally, spiritually and politically then but don't seem to have learned anything from that at all.

No where was this more born out than in Iraq, where the use of intense interrogation techniques and coercion actually added a lot of gasoline and fuel to the fire of the Iraqi insurgency. And this was long BEFORE the photos from Abu Ghraib came out. Nor was the mistreatment of prisoners by US personnel and Iraqi Shiite-militia pricks confined to Abu Ghraib by a long margin..

Especially in light of the fact of the "moralist stance" of the US when condemning Saddam's "torture chambers."

[sadaist]

Apparently not, as it seems 9/11 was a one-off event that no other major plots were ever uncovered and halted.

That we know of. I'm sure even these records released don't tell the whole story. But I hope you & the info is correct. Either way, I feel no sympathy for anything that happens to the sheik. Keep him alive for another 40 years just so we can torture his ass everyday. Execution is too good for him.

[Nitro Express]

Torture is only effective in supressing people by scaring the hell out of them. The Romans used crucifiction on political rebels because they were having problems with fanatics who didn't care if they died stiring up trouble. Ok. You may not care if you die for your cause but if you are caught you will die a slow agonizing death. It was effective.

A better way of getting information is bribery. Look at how many secrets the KGB got out of people by bribing them. Money and a nice piece of ass goes farther than torture in the information game.

[Nitro Express]

You can't tell me the Abu Graib style monkey games didn't go on in Gitmo. I've dealt with Customs Agents who if they could get away with it would be sheer terror. There is a certain mentality in some people in these jobs that are looking for it. As an example, my brother in law used to fly illegal alliens back to Mexico and one INS agent told him he couldn't wait for the day. My brother in law as day for what? The INS agent said the day one of those wetbacks caused trouble and he could shoot him. Give some bored, pissed, and egoed super Bubba some authority and turn a blind eye and they can create hell on earth in a hurry.

[sadaist]

Torture is only effective in supressing people by scaring the hell out of them.

It's also effective for revenge.

[Nickdfresh]

That we know of. I'm sure even these records released don't tell the whole story. But I hope you & the info is correct. Either way, I feel no sympathy for anything that happens to the sheik. Keep him alive for another 40 years just so we can torture his ass everyday. Execution is too good for him.

Oh please. That we know of? The gov't has never been shy about lauding the most dubious of "victories in the War on Terra." And as of yet, no serious plot was ever uncovered. A lot of bullshit ones, many of them completely made up under torture such as the "Brooklyn Bridge" plot ironically, were ballyhooed, then quietly dropped as they fell apart against any sort of actual scrutiny (namely, the guy that was supposed to have carried out that particular bombing was mentally retarded, and could barely survive on his own). The only one that is even close was the Dick Reid "shoe-bomber" plot that WASN'T discovered via torture and was stopped because the terrorist was again mentally retarded or insane, and observant passengers jumped him...

No significant terror conviction has been made resulting from a supposed plot on US soil that isn't highly dubious, and most people picked up on the terror-dragnet were actually convicted of minor offenses...

But remember Sadie, always trust the gov't as long as people like Bush and Cheney run it. Right?

[Nickdfresh]

Torture is only effective in supressing people by scaring the hell out of them. The Romans used crucifiction on political rebels because they were having problems with fanatics who didn't care if they died stiring up trouble. Ok. You may not care if you die for your cause but if you are caught you will die a slow agonizing death. It was effective.

A better way of getting information is bribery. Look at how many secrets the KGB got out of people by bribing them. Money and a nice piece of ass goes farther than torture in the information game.


Torture is used most effectively by totalitarian regimes, not just for intimidation but, to "get confessions." Something completely useless in a democracy that observes the rule of law in criminal trial proceedings --a key lesson lost on the idiots that reached back into much US military research (meant to be defensive for purposes of training US servicemen to be potential POWs) to come up with much of the torture regime used by the US gov't...

And Abu Ghraib and GITMO did not ever intimidate potential terrorists/insurgent fighters, such policies helped created and motivate new ones...

[Nickdfresh]

Another article that discusses another terrorist as well as Khalid...

NYT: 2 suspects waterboarded 266 times - The New York Times- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30302830)

[sadaist]

Oh please. That we know of?

But remember Sadie, always trust the gov't as long as people like Bush and Cheney run it. Right?


Uh, you're trusting it in that they're providing you with the whole story. I don't trust them, so I think we may not have all of the information.

[Nickdfresh]

Uh, you're trusting it in that they're providing you with the whole story. I don't trust them, so I think we may not have all of the information.

Actually, I think that 'they' provided a very embellished version of events to make them sound far more menacing and organized than they really were...it was critic's that poked holes in the stories of wanton, soon to be rampaging terrorists in hiding by showing that there were no weapons, plans, or organization to speak of in any of the cases, including the "Lackawanna Six" case.

The 9/11 atrocity was basically a one-off, one-hit-wonder with little thought given to follow on planning. And al Qaida is largely a self-defeating group whose strategy of massive-violence to spawn a spontaneous uprising has failed everywhere...

[ZahZoo]

It's a bullshit method, and does nothing except reducing us to the level of the criminal barbarian bastards we claim superiority to.

The whole premise of war is barbarian completely from beginning to end. There is no civil method to killing a group of people who want to kill you.

Don't fool yourself into thinking there's some nice, civil and respectable approach to inflicting harm on others. There isn't... justifiable homicide still results in loss of life. Dead is dead.

This torture talk is part of a war... it isn't nice, polite, and civil. Get over it or move to a neutral country.

[Nitro Express]

The whole premise of war is barbarian completely from beginning to end. There is no civil method to killing a group of people who want to kill you.

Don't fool yourself into thinking there's some nice, civil and respectable approach to inflicting harm on others. There isn't... justifiable homicide still results in loss of life. Dead is dead.

This torture talk is part of a war... it isn't nice, polite, and civil. Get over it or move to a neutral country.

Pretty much. It's like Sammy the Bull Gravano joked in the book Underboss regarding his term in Vietnam. "It's murder if you decide to kill someone but you get meddles for it if the govt. wants you to kill."

War drains the treasury, empowers the lenders, empowers military leaders, empowers the weapons industry, and gives the average Joe an excuse to behave rotten and the govt. an excuse to behave badly. The only good reason to go to war is to keep an invader out. Fighting for old men's loot is never a good reason to go to war and it's the same old bullshit. A few get rich off of others people's dead bodies and taxes.

[ELVIS]

No what it is is that your stance on all this stuff is immature.

Once you are older and wiser you realize that the movie action hero stuff isn't the way the real world works. If you do the instinctive thing of kicking this guys ass you actually end up harming yourself more than you ever harm him. You fall right into his trap and that's only with the guilty ones never mind the innocents.

I see you are now focusing on this guy who is one of the very few from Gitmo who appear to be guilty of something. Previously you were saying kill them, torture those bastards about a bunch of people who have been proved to have been completely innocent i.e. the other 95% of the detainees.

So you were completely wrong morally, legally, spiritually and politically then but don't seem to have learned anything from that at all.


I hear what you're sayin' and I have learned many things (many subjects inspired beginning right here) since I voted for Bush in 2000, which I don't regret, bit voting for him again in '04 was a mistake, but I did my homework on Kerry and he was full of shit himself. But that's neither here nor there at this point. But I have learned, and you should know i'm not a PC message board poster by now anyway...

But I read, listen, learn and respect all of the main characters on these boards, including yourself, and have evolved politically and had my eyes opened (frequently with some sadness and contempt for our government as well as others around the world) on many occasions and i appreciate it...


So...

Cheers!
:elvis:

[FORD]

The whole premise of war is barbarian completely from beginning to end. There is no civil method to killing a group of people who want to kill you.

Don't fool yourself into thinking there's some nice, civil and respectable approach to inflicting harm on others. There isn't... justifiable homicide still results in loss of life. Dead is dead.

This torture talk is part of a war... it isn't nice, polite, and civil. Get over it or move to a neutral country.

It's got nothing to do with being "nice". It's about acquiring reliable information. All of these false "terra alerts" that the BCE came up with for several years (at least the ones that weren't entirely made up to get some bad press out of the media cycle) were based on "bad intelligence" that more than likely came from a tortured "confession".

If you're going to hold prisoners, hold them according to the established laws and treaties. If you're going to treat them like criminals, put them on trial, and convict them if you have the evidence. If it's a war, kill them on the battlefield when you have to.

But this torture shit accomplishes NOTHING.

[hideyoursheep]

I remember reading though that innocent people ended up committing suicide after being given acid by the CIA in the 50s/60s.
Yeah well that was before anyone really knew what it was. If they know it's coming, they'll probably be like cats to a can opener.

But really, yeah, you won't get any good intel from someone under the influence, unless it becomes a security issue to hear about how Dr. Who is living in Ahmed's underwear riding a unicorn!:biggrin:

[ZahZoo]

If you're going to hold prisoners, hold them according to the established laws and treaties. If you're going to treat them like criminals, put them on trial, and convict them if you have the evidence. If it's a war, kill them on the battlefield when you have to.

But this torture shit accomplishes NOTHING.

But we hold no "treaties" with al queda and the taliban. The established "conventions" of war are agreements amoung established countries. We're not at war in a conventional sense.

These people are not American citizens so our laws do Not apply. There are international laws that we recognize but again... the current situation with the terrorist orgs cloud the situation as the enemy is not aligned with a specific country. Jurisdiction is a critical ingredient required to apply any sense of law...

I agree there's elements of torture that we should discontinue and hold ourselves to some form of standard. Sadly the elements of war and defending our people from these fanatical groups is difficult to manage given that we're waging battle with non-conventional elements.

The tough decision is how far should we go to prevent further attacks against Americans? If we're attacked again and that is an eminate possibility... where do you draw the line on taking steps to gain information and intelligence??

[thome]

Once you are, "In The System" ......"Arrested" by The Police or goverment official for you STUPID PUSSY MF'ERS!!

You got no right no matter what you fukking think.

Never have never will.

I never have rights I never get my day in court and when it finally does come I DON'T FUKKING "WIN" EITHER with a Money Goddam Grubbing Mouth Piece!!!

Why do fukkers think these MF'ers deserve more than ME..... OR ANY CITIZEN....???

Gut the pieces of sh!t in the street I could give a fukk same as the system feels about me .

If a Cop/Gman..(shill for the state) is withing your personal space you loose and if you think money get's you out your stupid, money is your life...they take your life and you are guilty no matter what.

[Blaze]

TT,
In the system " civil or criminal


And you b's leftie... no amonts of monies that you are buys guilt away


Again this system... you should have gone and listen on thursday nights more.....you would not be a fearing that system... of things..
Let that heathen go, system! Let that heathen go! :D See I is so nice, 2s u! Now what you going to do peaches with no system? Ahhh This system of things be gone for you! Awake, me brether! The perfect order has arrive!
.s.P... thos pictures were always so deviod thye were scary, I think so

[Nickdfresh]

Wut?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/phapster/lol-wut.jpg

[hideyoursheep]

Once you are, "In The System" ......"Arrested" by The Police or goverment official for you STUPID PUSSY MF'ERS!!

You got no right no matter what you fukking think.

Never have never will.

I never have rights I never get my day in court and when it finally does come I DON'T FUKKING "WIN" EITHER with a Money Goddam Grubbing Mouth Piece!!!

Why do fukkers think these MF'ers deserve more than ME..... OR ANY CITIZEN....???

Gut the pieces of sh!t in the street I could give a fukk same as the system feels about me .

If a Cop/Gman..(shill for the state) is withing your personal space you loose and if you think money get's you out your stupid, money is your life...they take your life and you are guilty no matter what.

I ran this through my translator, and it told me to seek professional help immediately.

[ELVIS]

Well, then seek the help!

[hideyoursheep]

Well, then seek the help!


Uh, I didn't type it, your thick-headednes.

[thome]

I ran this through my translator, and it told me to seek professional help immediately.

Add a "s" and delete the "g"

Please do me a favor and stop trying,"Lounge Trick "
of making the thread about me....just read the fukking post and do my splel check for me...

I am sure you homos could use another thank you,so PM each other and get to it...


:fufu:

[LoungeMachine]

You're the one who tries to make it about you, paintlicker.

That's the whole reason behind your childish posting schtick.

If you had a coherent thought worth posting, you wouldn't need the crutch.

:gulp:

Idiot.

[hideyoursheep]

Add a "s" and delete the "g"

Please do me a favor and stop trying,"Lounge Trick "
of making the thread about me....just read the fukking post and do my splel check for me...

I am sure you homos could use another thank you,so PM each other and get to it...


:fufu:<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/paint%20huffer" target="_blank"><img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/CGreypaw/paint_huffer.jpg" border="0" alt="Paint Huffer Pictures, Images and Photos"/></a>


Who are you calling a homo, Mr RothChats?

Is it too much to ask that whem you make a post that the rest of the members can fucking read and understand it? You don't post that Himalayan graffitti over there, why do you do it here? Thumb sucker.

Don't make me turn Blaze loose on you. You remember her, right?

Fucking Chat-man Caruthers wants to make a stinkk about how we don't understand him.


BTW...I seldom PM anybody. I haven't PM'd lounge in over a year maybe, so go fuck yourself.