Chrysler Going Bankrupt: Fiat Merger Ahead

[Nickdfresh]

January 21, 2009
Chrysler and Fiat form a global alliance

Chrysler-200C-EV In the high stakes game of "Bankruptcy or No Bankruptcy," Chrysler Corp. got a lifeline from Fiat. The two automakers have announced a global alliance that provides Chrysler with a much-needed save during desperate times.

The cash-less partnership will give Fiat a 35-percent equity interest in Chrysler. In return, Chrysler gains product, platform, and powertrain sharing, with the promise of fuel-efficient engines. In short, Chrysler gains an imported solution to its home-grown problems.

Chrysler has a product portfolio skewed toward midsize and large vehicles, emphasizing power over fuel efficiency. There simply are no small, truly thrifty vehicles available from Chrysler, Dodge, or Jeep dealerships, leaving the struggling automaker conspicuously absent from vital budget-priced segments. The PT Cruiser is about as close as the company comes, and this merely average, long-running model is overdue for retirement.

The most fuel-efficient current product we have tested from Chrysler is the Dodge Caliber. With a manual transmission, the four-cylinder Caliber average 25 mpg overall in our fuel economy tests—not bad considering it was the supercharged SRT model. However, in most vehicle segments, Chrysler provides middling mileage, at best.

Overall, Chrysler has Detroit's poorest reliability. Almost two-thirds of its models get a below-average reliability Rating. Chrysler as a brand ranks 32nd among 34 brands included in our latest Reliability survey. Among all models, the Sebring Convertible is the worst; it has 283 percent more problems than average.

In the U.S., Fiat has never been a brand that resonated with reliability. Looking back at Reliability ratings from the late 1970s, we found the Fiat 128 and 131 received a "worse" overall Reliability rating for several years. However, overseas data shows that Fiat rates above average in the What Car? Reliability Index in the U.K.

Many Chrysler Corp. models have a lackluster driving experience and subpar fit and finish. Based on our testing, Chrysler needs to give its model line a major overhaul and raise its reliability, interiors, fuel economy, and overall refinement up to the level of its styling. Such work has begun, with positive signs shown in the 2009 Dodge Ram pickup truck, a model currently undergoing testing; so far, we think the Ram has improved. Ultimately, Chrysler’s critical weaknesses speak to areas the new alliance may be able to better address than the company could tackle alone, as history has shown when it was merged with Daimler. (Read our Detroit Report Card.)

Even with the new partnership, Chrysler continues to seek aid from American taxpayers. (Read Consumer Reports' statement on the emergency aid.) After all, Fiat isn’t investing capital in Chrysler, and it will take money to restructure and develop new models. However, the potential cost savings from product and technology sharing, as well as distribution potential and joint supplier negotiations, could enrich both automakers in the long run.

An interesting footnote, this arrangement will mean the majority of Chrysler Corp. ownership is foreign, with Fiat claiming 35 percent and Daimler retaining almost 20 percent – though Daimler has sought to divest its interests.

A strong, solvent Chrysler with clever, fuel-efficient models inspired by the Fiat 500 (http://www.zcars.com.au/images/fiat-500-abarth1.jpg), Grande Punto, Panda, and Qubo, plus the potential for Alfa Romeo to return to the United States, all sounds good to me.

—Jeff Bartlett
For complete Ratings and recommendations on appliances, cars & trucks, electronic gear, and much more, subscribe today and have access to all of ConsumerReports.org. (http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/01/chrysler-and-fiat-form-a-global-alliance-.html)

Related: Chryslers new small car the Fiat 500? (http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2009/112_0901_chrysler_fiat_500/index.html)

[Nickdfresh]

I find this fascinating since I can't imagine a more automotive odd-couple...

But if they can hold out for the next two years or so, I think this would work unlike the Daimler debacle...

[FORD]

The Germans couldn't save Chrysler, so now the Italians get a shot? OK, whatever.... as long as Berlusconi doesn't own Fiat. (He's Italy's answer to Chimpy and Rupert Murdoch all rolled into one)

[LoungeMachine]

FIX
IT
AGAIN
TONY

Had one on the 80's

Makes the Yugo seem like Lexus

[Nickdfresh]

FIX
IT
AGAIN
TONY

Had one on the 80's

Makes the Yugo seem like Lexus


They've improved quite a bit and are one of the above average quality Euro-cars...

Still, I'd like to see them go beyond a couple Fiat models and bring some Alfa's, which I think they will eventually...http://www.thetorquereport.com/alfa_romeo_mito_3.jpg

[Big Train]

Makes a whole lot of sense if they can make it work. My guess is Chrysler will be dumping a lot of designs overboard in short order (charger, challenger, some truck stuff) and downsizing quite a bit. It is what they had to do all along. Mercedes never really worked themselves into what Chrysler was doing, it seemed more like a financing deal. With Cerebus guys running Chrysler now, I'm sure they will.

This is what should happen to Ford and GM too. Part the brands out to different owners and let them fix them up. The workers (most) will still have a car to build in much better hands. Think of all the brands GM owns that aren't worth shit at the moment. Buick, Olds, Pontiac. In the hands of people who want to fix it (i.e. PE firms, foreign financed consortiums), they could be viable again in 5-10 years, when American ownership could buy it back and starting fucking it up again.

[Seshmeister]

I'm not clear what Fiat are getting out of this.

Also I don't think Fiat reliability is not up there with Jap cars or European Fords. The only Fiat I ever had was a Fiat Coupe Turbo thing which was great until it gradually fet to pieces over 18 months. It was also unique in that you could only fit half a cigarette in the ashtray and then it was full. :) Right enough in this new world of helath and safety some cars don't even come with an ashtray any more.

This is a typical Chrysler review in Europe... :)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article4873574.ece


Jeremy Clarkson

Many people imagine when they rent a convertible in America that they’ll be thumping down Highway 1 under a blazing sky in a throbbing Corvette or an evocative Mustang. Yum yum, they think. Freedom. Sunshine. A V8 bass line. Engineer boots, leather jackets and tight blue jeans. The American dream.

Sadly, however, most tourists end up with a Chrysler Sebring convertible, which is almost certainly the worst car in the entire world.

My journey in this automotive horror story began in Wendover. Famous for being a base used by the Enola Gay back in 1945, it lies on the border between Utah and Nevada. So half the town is full of man mountains emptying what’s left of their savings into MGM’s shiny and very noisy slots. And the other half is full of Donny Osmond. As you can imagine, I was in a hurry to leave and so I piled, along with my Top Gear colleagues, into the rented Sebring and set off for Denver.

Immediately, I was annoyed by a nonstop whining sound from the back. This turned out to be Richard Hammond, who, despite being 8in tall, claimed that he had never been so uncomfortable in his life, apart from when he was being born. “Only that,” he said, “was more spacious.”

After several hours of continuous moaning, he changed his tack. I’d selected a “classic vinyl” station on the car’s satellite radio and this did not meet with his approval. As a fan of Westlife and Girls Aloud, he didn’t see why James May and I were air-drum-ming our way across the salt flats to a nonstop selection of brilliance from Supertramp, Yes and the Allman Brothers. Eventually, Hocus Pocus by Focus drove him into such a frenzy of whingeing, we could take no more and drowned him out by turning up Steve Miller to the max.

I can only presume that when Steve went from Phoenix, Arizona, all the way to Tacoma, he was not at the wheel of a Sebring, or the song would have been rather different. “I went from Phoenix, Arizona, to the other side of the city and then I went home again.”

Certainly, we only got as far as Salt Lake City in our rented car before we ditched it and resorted to the services offered by Delta. It had been 120 miles of abject misery, and not only because of the unswervingly pissed-off Richard Hammond.

Let us look, first of all, at the car’s only good point. The boot is bigger than the hangar deck of a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. However, the drawback of driving a car with an aircraft carrier on the back is that it doesn’t look very good. No. That doesn’t cover it. It looks terrible. Hysterically awful. Anyone thinking of drawing up a list of the ugliest cars ever made will be forced to put this one at the top. I have seen more attractive boils.

And disappointingly, if you push the button that lowers the roof - and then push it again because it isn’t working properly - you will find that a) all of the carrying capacity is lost, and that b) with no roof in place, everyone can see you at the wheel. This is very bad. Some, for sure, give you pitying looks. Mostly, though, they point and laugh.

So how much do you have to pay for the privilege of being a laughing stock? Well in the US, it’s around $29,000 (£16,400). You could buy a clown suit for less and achieve much the same effect. Here, however, a 2.7 litre drop-top Sebring is £25,100 and at that price, I simply don’t know how the salesman keeps a straight face.

Power? There isn’t any. Spec sheets show that in Britain, a 2.7 litre V6 will do 121mph and 0-62mph in 10.8.

But 10.8 what? Years? Let me put it this way. It develops 185bhp, which is pretty much what Volvo can get these days from a 2.4 litre diesel.

I’m afraid I have no idea which engine was fitted to my rental but I can tell you that all it did was convert fuel into noise. Put your foot down hard and after a while of nothing happening, the gearbox would lurch down a cog and the volume would increase. That was it.

Sadly, there’s more bad news. Turning petrol into motion, as we know, is an expensive business, but turning it into sound is even worse. We managed just 18mpg. Quite why anyone would buy this rather than, say, a Volkswagen Eos, I simply do not know. You’d have to be so window-lickingly insane that you’d be banned from handling anything other than crayons.

A Sebring can do nothing well. It was hopeless in crosswinds and the only option you need on a twisty road are sick bags. Interestingly, however, while the ride is very soft, the suspension still manages to crash about like a drawer full of cutlery when it is asked to deal with a small pothole.

And of course, being an American rental car, it came with a warped disc brake and steering that was so out of whack it kept making a beeline for Wyoming. But the worst thing was the overwhelming sense from everything you touched that it had been built by someone who was being deliberately stupid or who was four years old. Life inside that bag of crap plastic gave me some idea of what it might be like to be a boiled sweet.

We see this with so many American cars. Dynamically, some of them are pretty good these days. One or two are even a match for what the Chinese are doing. And by and large they are still extremely cheap. But there’s a very good reason for this. They are simply not built to last.

I spent most of my time in America this time in a new Corvette ZR1. It is a fabulous car. Mesmerisingly fast, good looking and amazing value. But after three days the damn thing was beginning to disintegrate. It made me growl with annoyance and despair.

But I think I know the problem. Because America is a new country, the people who live there have no sense of history. And if you have no concept of “the past”, it is extremely difficult to grapple with the idea of “the future”.

If you think a bar established in 1956 is “old” then you will not understand the idea of next week. So why bother building for it?

We see this short-termism in everything from the average American house, which falls over whenever the wind gets up, to the way chief executives are treated. In Japan, you are given 25 years before you are judged on whether you’ve turned the company around. In America, bosses are given two months. And if there’s been no financial about-turn, they are fired.

AIG and Lehman Brothers got caught out because they were being run by people who live only in the here and now. They couldn’t see that it would all come crashing down in the future because there’s no such thing.

I suppose eco-mentalists would use this argument as a stick to beat the pickup driving masses. But how can Hank and Billy-Bob think about the world ending in a thousand years when everything they know, everything they are, began a week last Tuesday?

And this brings me on to the war in Iraq. They went in there, knowing that pretty quickly they could depose Saddam Hussein. But nobody in power stopped for a moment to think about what might happen next. And there you have it. The insurgency problem in Baghdad and the wonky gear lever on the Chrysler Sebring. They are both caused by exactly the same thing.

And the only cure, frankly, is time. Give them 2,000 years and they might just start to understand what I’m on about. Until then, do not buy a Sebring. Do not rent one either. Close your eyes, hum and, hopefully, we can make it go away.

THE CLARKSOMETER
ENGINE 2736cc, six cylinders
POWER 185bhp @ 6400rpm
TORQUE 188 lb ft @ 4000rpm
TRANSMISSION Six-speed auto
FUEL/CO2 26.9mpg / 248g/km
ACCELERATION 0-62mph: 10.8sec
TOP SPEED 121mph
PRICE £25,100
ROAD TAX BAND G (£400 a year)
RELEASE DATE Out now
Clarkson’s verdict All that’s missing is the clown suit Chrysler

Sebring Cabriolet 2.7 V6
(No stars)

[Nickdfresh]

I'm not clear what Fiat are getting out of this.
...

A ready made American distribution system of dealerships for their cars. A network that is absolutely DESPERATE for this very sort of product as Chrysler/Dodge have nothing even remotely similar. I think they're having problems limiting themselves to just the European markets and there still is a boutique crowd over here that does pine for the new Alfa's and you can't get a Mini Cooper without signing up for a waiting list which can take months and months. This is why they're fast-tracking the Fiat 500 to this market...

And on top of the crap that the Seabring was, the article failed to mention that their 2.7L engines tend to get gummed up with sludge if you aren't very anal and use stouter synthetic oils they don't bother telling you to use...

[ELVIS]

April 8, 2009 (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_16/b4127000002277.htm)

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/01/Chrysler_Fiat.jpg

CEO Marchionne believes the carmaker is too small to make it on its own. But is Chrysler the best partner?

By David Kiley and Carol Matlack

As Fiat (FIA.MI) and Chrysler negotiate an agreement with unions and banks that would seal their proposed alliance, the American team knows that a deal with the Italians may be the only way to avoid bankruptcy. For Fiat, the stakes aren't as high, but the talks represent the best chance yet for Chief Executive Sergio Marchionne to get U.S. drivers into his cars. "Marchionne is coming to America, and the only question is with whom, when, and for how much," says a senior Chrysler official involved in the talks.

Even before starting discussions with Chrysler, Marchionne had laid the groundwork to move Fiat back across the Atlantic after a 25-year hiatus. Last summer he approached Volkswagen (VLKAY), BMW (BMWG), Nissan (NSANY), Ford (F), and others to find a partner willing to help Fiat build and sell its cars in the U.S.

So why Chrysler? For starters, it's cheap. As in free. The proposed deal calls for Fiat to take a 20% stake in Chrysler in exchange for small-car technology. And if the two sides get a deal, the company will have $6 billion in federal money to spend on restructuring. Marchionne, meanwhile, could tap Chrysler's dealer network to sell Fiats within a year or two. Chrysler "could be the least expensive way into the U.S. for Fiat," says former Chrysler President Thomas Stallkamp.

Many in the industry, though, believe Fiat could get most of the benefits of a deal with fewer management headaches by purchasing selected assets out of bankruptcy. The Italians could cherry-pick key dealerships and buy a low-wage factory. Marchionne could also skip Chrysler altogether and get Saturn on the cheap from General Motors (GM) or hire Ford to make vehicles in underutilized plants. (The two build cars together in Poland.) "The management time and distraction [running Chrysler] will be so large that it's tough to see the benefit for Fiat," says Max Warburton, a Bernstein Research (AB) analyst. Marchionne declined to be interviewed while talks are ongoing.

Quick and Lean
Teaming up with Chrysler offers one big advantage: speed. Overnight, Fiat would get U.S. distribution and access to Chrysler knowhow to adapt its cars to U.S. tastes and standards. And Marchionne is in a hurry. He has repeatedly predicted that a wave of consolidation will leave only a half-dozen major automakers worldwide within two years. As the industry's No. 9 player, Fiat sold just 2.1 million vehicles last year, less than half the

5.5 million Marchionne says is needed for sustained profitability. The question is whether Chrysler can survive long enough to get the Chrysler-Fiat models into U.S. showrooms.

The Fiat CEO knows how to move fast. Fiat was on the verge of bankruptcy when he took over in 2004. He quickly laid off hundreds of executives and built a leaner team, including younger managers from Fiat's South American operations and its U.S.-based farm equipment subsidiary, Case New Holland (CNH). By last year, Fiat was back in the black and had one of the healthiest profit margins in the industry. "There used to be a joke at Fiat: The main thing they produced was organization charts," says Karl Ludvigsen, an independent auto consultant who was a Fiat executive in the pre-Marchionne era. Now, he says, "People's energy has been released to make the changes that are necessary."


:elvis:

[redblkwht]

Just checked out Fiat's website

Jeez, alot changed since i had my spider..lol used to have to run it down the
block to start sometimes. :biggrin:
those were the days!!lol

[twonabomber]

Marchionne could also skip Chrysler altogether and get Saturn on the cheap from General Motors

earlier this week i read that Saturn is likely to be sold to one of the Chinese automakers.

they have been talking about bringing Alfa Romeo back for a while.

Maserati and Ferrari are also Fiat Group brands. some of that tech would have to roll downhill eventually.

[Seshmeister]

The way it's going in a few years there will only be 1 car company.

[ELVIS]

Yeah, Honda...


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

This seems fitting...

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:D

[Seshmeister]

Yeah, Honda...


:elvis:

Well as long as it isn't Chevrolet.

[LoungeMachine]

Fix
It
Again
Tony

:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

Well as long as it isn't Chevrolet.

Mom, Applie Pie, and Chevrolet....


Mom is working 2 jobs, apple pie is now filled with nitrates and high fructose corn syrup, and Chevrolet hasn't made a decent car since 1970

:gulp:

[binnie]

If FIAT set off now they should get there some time around 2030.....

[ELVIS]

and Chevrolet hasn't made a decent car since 1970

:gulp:

Well then you haven't driven the last genration Corvette...

[Nickdfresh]

The 500 looks like a cool little car, and a worthy match for the Minicooper, which you pretty much can't get here...

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/03/Fiat-500-Abarth-Geneva.jpg

[ELVIS]

Yeah, that looks nice...

Kinda Chryslerish, actually...

I wonder what Dodge would call it ??

[Nitro Express]

Chrysler is gonzo. It won't survive. It will go the way of American Motors. General Motors is already planning on declaring bankruptsy. The govt. will take it over and bust the unions. It may be another Leyland Rover that was a tottal dissaster. Ford will survive because they are capable of fixing their own problems without having to suck Obama's dick.

[Nickdfresh]

Reported on CNN...

http://www.philseed.com/images/chryslermodels-1931clip.jpg
http://www.automotivehistoryonline.com/1941%20Chrysler%20Newport.jpg
http://www.chrysler.co.uk/img/History/history80s.jpghttp://christiancarguy.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/chrysler2.jpg
http://www.allpar.com/squads/photos/parade/dodge-polara.jpg
http://www.allpar.com/photos/dodge/charger/police/police-car.jpg
http://www.4wdonline.com/bbs/messages/7/123.jpg

:(

[Igosplut]

Isn't it chapter 11 reorganizing?

[Guitar Shark]

Isn't it chapter 11 reorganizing?

Yup... but the reality is that Chrysler will need a bunch of money from the government (read: taxpayers) in order to reorganize.

[Kristy]

Heh, Chrysler went bankrupt when they started putting "fine Corinthian leather" in their piece O' shit cars

http://daveandthomas.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/1976chryslercordobasportcoupe.jpg

[kwame k]

By BEN FELLER, Associated Press Writer Ben Feller, Associated Press Writer – 8 mins ago
WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama announced Thursday that Chrysler would head into bankruptcy with the aid of up to another $8 billion in taxpayer money, a last-resort attempt to quickly restructure the struggling giant. He blasted hedge-fund creditors whom he said held out for a richer deal.

"No one should be confused about what a bankruptcy process means," Obama said. "This is not a sign of weakness but rather one more step on a clearly chartered path to Chrysler's revival."

As part of the deal, Chrysler is signing a partnership with the Italian company Fiat. The government will be an investor in the revamped Chrysler and will help choose its new directors, but the Obama administration does not plan to help manage the company.

Bankruptcy doesn't mean the nation's No. 3 automaker will shut down. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing would allow a judge to decide how much the company's creditors would get while the company continues to operate. The goal is for the whole process to happen quickly, Obama said, perhaps within a couple months.

The president said that Chrysler has been responsible for helping to build the American middle class, but over the years also had been weakened by "papering over tough problems and avoiding hard choices."

"For too long," Obama said at the White House, "Chrysler moved too slowly to adapt to the future, designing and building cars that were less popular, less reliable and less fuel efficient than foreign competitors."

The Obama administration had long hoped to stave off bankruptcy for Chrysler LLC, but it became clear that a holdout group of creditors wouldn't budge on proposals to reduce Chrysler's $6.9 billion in secured debt. Obama praised all the constituencies that have offered sacrifices and blasted those that did not.

He said a group of investment firms and hedge funds were holding out for the prospect of an unjustified taxpayer bailout.

"I don't stand with them," Obama said at the White House event.

He called Chrysler one of the "most storied automakers" in the annals of the country.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090430/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_automakers)

[kwame k]

Chrysler would head into bankruptcy with the aid of up to another $8 billion in taxpayer money, a last-resort attempt to quickly restructure the struggling giant. He blasted hedge-fund creditors whom he said held out for a richer deal.


So when they restructure and get off the hook for the majority of their debt what happens to the money the Tax Payers gave them? Don't you usually settle all your debt for pennies on the dollar?

[Nickdfresh]

Some are saying that his might be the best possible thing for them and their future is brighter with a coming merger with Fiat, which will create the world's sixth largest car company, give them access to some fine Euro cars, a Euro dealer network, and the ability to clear their debt...

What will happen to Chrysler now? - Top Stocks Blog - MSN Money (http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/archive/2009/04/30/what-will-happen-to-chrysler-now.aspx)

Merging this with a couple of other threads on Fiat...

[kwame k]

I agree it's probably the best move but WTF about our money? They won't have to pay back the full amount of the Loan/Gift that we gave them as a bailout. I'm all for my friends, who work for Chrysler, having the chance to keep their jobs but the bigger picture is we need every penny back from Chrysler and GM.

[ELVIS]

I believe the Chrysler / Fiat merger could work by bringing low cost, fuel efficient vehicles to the american market, and dumping it's products (like the Sebring) that never turned a head or a profit...

But none of this will work while people are loosing jobs in record numbers and not at all in the position of (or even entertaining the idea of) buying a new car...

Plus, there's a huge amount of competition...

Chrysler and Fiat would have to come up with a great car at the right time, and the chances of that are as slim as can be...

I imagine they will keep most of their Dodge trucks, as well as the Challenger, but who could even guess with any degree of accuracy, what cars and trucks will be in demand once the economy turns around ??


:elvis:

[Big Train]

I would think they would keep the truck lines, but dump the Challenger and Charger. Too big, not enough units sold on the Challenger. A great design, but unfortunate timing. It will be interesting to see how long Fiat commits and what it is going to take to attempt to turn it all around. A lot more money than anyone is letting on, I'm sure.

[Kristy]

The 500 looks like a cool little car, and a worthy match for the Minicooper, which you pretty much can't get here...

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/03/Fiat-500-Abarth-Geneva.jpg


I'm sure there is many a clown in a circus right now drooling over that car.

[ELVIS]

I'll take a 500 with a HEMI !!

[FORD]

I imagine they will keep most of their Dodge trucks, as well as the Challenger, but who could even guess with any degree of accuracy, what cars and trucks will be in demand once the economy turns around ??


:elvis:

Hopefully they'll be vehicles that use something other than 19th century technology engines to power them.

[thome]

Chyys'ler should have folded back when I a Criminalacocca took over introduced the K Car when imminent design failure of 2 years build in, on purpose,. to rip off the consumer and pay for a business that is based on
a lie and socialist union gangsters.

I see chrysler RAM TOUGH WORK TRUCKS driving down the suburban streets they never leave with thier WORK TRUCK plastic bumper 1/2 fallen off and dragging the ground every day.

I saw on RAM TOUGH truck (in real time) rear end a lexus at 8-12mph and the bumper and grill and front end folded under istself.

That a'comapany is a crime'a.

Time Magazine and all you homos think he is a brilliant business man, to bring that company back from the brink.Whatever year he took over that Company has been doing nothing but selling junk to fools and should have folden then instead of being an burden to those that purchase and a inside joke to the ones who run it.

You Ignorant fukks.

Let then Die......... Fiat or you will be dead in a matter of months.

[LoungeMachine]

How's Blaze?

Gettin any?

:gulp:

[thome]

How's Blaze?

Gettin any?

:gulp:

Why? You Lookin'?

If so, I am always involved and I don't swing "that way" .


So feel free to "get some"
How's Blaze? hotshot.;)

[thome]

How's Blaze?

Gettin any?

:gulp:

I guess it is a cop-out to say again I have nO edit funtion and I guess I am too preocupid to really see all my typo's, but do you have any comment on my.."Truthing Out". ..of,-The Reality- of the crime that has been Chrysler and what Iacocca realy was...?


What the K-Car was to them and us, and how the Unions have ruined the auto industry.

[thome]

Oh and P.S. ...Chrysler took thier share of the Billion Billion Trillion that was given by our goverment with promises to stay afloat and support thier employees and the great Chrysler name about -one month ago-.

...Paid all the executive the Billion Billion Trillion and now are claiming bankruptcy on the Debtors/Vendors... who believed in them, and the investors, and the employees, and the American people.

But you all are looking forward to the NEW CARS!!!!!! #######????

The new Fiat Diamler RAM FUKK JOB!!!!

[Nickdfresh]

I'm sure there is many a clown in a circus right now drooling over that car.


Maybe. maybe their the ones buying up the Mini Coopers that you have to sign up on a waiting list for to get? The one that the 500 nearly outsells in Europe...

[hideyoursheep]

I would think they would keep the truck lines, but dump the Challenger and Charger. Too big, not enough units sold on the Challenger. A great design, but unfortunate timing.


I agree with you there. If only they would have released the Challenger in 05...they might have taken alot of Mustang buyers away. I don't know why they waited.

[hideyoursheep]

No matter what Fiat does, the US will get the shitty versions.

Emission controlls will choke them out.

[ELVIS]

The Challenger isn't going away, at least not for awhile...

The 300 and the Charger will remain as well...


:elvis:

[hideyoursheep]

WTF were they thinking with the Charger?

Uggh! RamWagon.

[ELVIS]

Well, the Charger sells well, and the SRT4 version kicks ass, but a 4 door Charger still turns me off...

But they still need some image cars in the showroom to sell the lesser cars...


:elvis:

[hideyoursheep]

Other than trucks and the Charger, what does Dodge have? The Neon is dead.

Chrysler needs a kick in the ass, but Dodge seemed to compete pretty well in the truck area.

Stylewise, they had a good thing going with the PT, underpowered as it was, it was like the american Volkswagen for a minute.

[ELVIS]

Theyn had a 2.4 turbo PT limited that was really nice, but it was in small numbers...

Killing the Neon was a terrible idea. They should have just kept on improving on it like Honda does with all of it's cars...


:elvis:

[hideyoursheep]

That's the problem....there was nowhere to go but up with the Neon-it was sooo bad!

:019:

If you had a choice between that and a Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi or even Hyundai, it was a no-brainer.


The old days are long gone. All 3 companies made their money off of SUV's and trucks. Cars were an afterthought.

Now look at them. It's like 1973 all over again.

[ELVIS]

I drive a Neon today and I love it...

Parts are cheap and it's fast as hell and gets over 30 mpg...


:elvis:

[hideyoursheep]

I hope it lasts for ya. What sort of parts have you had to buy?



Define "fast"...

[Igosplut]

No matter what Fiat does, the US will get the shitty versions.

Emission controlls will choke them out.

Wait until the coming years. The EPA has a whole new round of stricter emission standards coming out. I'd be willing to bet it eliminates entire lines of cars because of not being able to adapt larger motors to the standards.

[hideyoursheep]

Wait until the coming years. The EPA has a whole new round of stricter emission standards coming out. I'd be willing to bet it eliminates entire lines of cars because of not being able to adapt larger motors to the standards.
You're probably right....if there's anything left to eliminate by then.:(

[Seshmeister]

I hope it lasts for ya. What sort of parts have you had to buy?



Define "fast"...

0-60 in 10.8 seconds is fast apparently... :)

[Nickdfresh]

That's the problem....there was nowhere to go but up with the Neon-it was sooo bad!

:019:

If you had a choice between that and a Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi or even Hyundai, it was a no-brainer.


The old days are long gone. All 3 companies made their money off of SUV's and trucks. Cars were an afterthought.

Now look at them. It's like 1973 all over again.


The last generation Neon was pretty decent. They have problem auto trannies, but you can solve that by not being a pussy and driving the 5sp. manual...

Elvis is right, they really should have kept that because they have nothing remotely close to a small car now and that really hurt about six months to a year ago...

[ELVIS]

0-60 in 10.8 seconds is fast apparently... :)

I have a Neon ACR that I bought from a doctor who installed a roll cage and raced it...

I have a 14 second timeslip from No Problem Raceway about 50 miles from here and I can beat these kids around here with their Hondas all day long...

I even beat a couple older Mustang GT's...

The part I have to change most is front tires...:D

But I haven't had to change any major parts. Just hub assemblies and CV shafts...

The worst part is the doctor removed the A/C and installed underdrive pulleys...

I have all the parts to reinstall the but i've been too lazy...

I'm looking to buy a used Neon SRT4 or maybe a Subaru WRX


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

I've had three neons and the first one was an automatic that always made a whine that made me nervous...

I installed a trans cooler just to be safe and never had a problem...

I love Neons, I know almost everything about them and if you do the preventative maintenence by the book you should have little problems...

Also, the interiors hold up better than any car i've ever had and down south where the sun and humidity kills a car, I think that's pretty good...


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Want to see what Chrysler engineering can do ??

Watch this!

<object width="500" height="405"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/t6-CADcY4KU&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x2b405b&color2=0x6b8ab6&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/t6-CADcY4KU&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x2b405b&color2=0x6b8ab6&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="500" height="405"></embed></object>

Or this!

<object width="500" height="405"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KIivO7u91Oo&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x2b405b&color2=0x6b8ab6&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KIivO7u91Oo&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x2b405b&color2=0x6b8ab6&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="500" height="405"></embed></object>


:elvis:

[twonabomber]

my brother's got a super clean first-gen turbo Voyager. he hasn't modded it yet, but it's pretty fast for close to a 20 year old minivan. it's not stupid fast like my SRT-6 but he may get there one day. mine should run mid-12's with just the aftermarket cold air intake i have on it.

the ACR Neons were set up more as road course cars, weren't they?

[hideyoursheep]

I've had three neons and the first one was an automatic that always made a whine that made me nervous...

I installed a trans cooler just to be safe and never had a problem...

I love Neons, I know almost everything about them and if you do the preventative maintenence by the book you should have little problems...

Also, the interiors hold up better than any car i've ever had and down south where the sun and humidity kills a car, I think that's pretty good...


:elvis:
So when you say fast you mean quick..:umm:

I really hate to see Dodge/ Chrysler take a shit. I have a soft spot for them since 2 out of my first 3 cars were Plymouth and Chrysler.

Trans coolers are a great idea, as well as oil coolers if you do a lot of highway driving like I do. The Merc Sable I had 2 years ago scared me when I drove it like I normaly drive my other car when I'm running late, ang the damned tranny light came on before I reached my exit! It wouldn't have lasted, so we parted ways.

[ELVIS]

the ACR Neons were set up more as road course cars, weren't they?

Exactly. They were basically base Neons with factory installed Koni adjustable struts and a close ratio transmission. Some say the motors were a little hotter than stock and that mabye, but not much. The factory DOHC put out 150 BHP and the torque comes on strong at low RPM...

I have an aftermarket intake manafold, cold air induction, header, no catalytic converter, Mopar Performance computer and the under drive pulleys...

If I could get it to hook up I could have better numbers than 14 sec. But it's fun fast / quick for a daily driver...


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

And the doctor I got it from also changed the struts to more track oriented Koni's and gave me the factory Koni struts with the car. It handles like a go cart and the ride isn't bad except on some of the terrible roads around New orleans, but i'm south of that crap...

It had only 48,000 miles on it when I got it and it just crossed 75,000 with no real problems, so I like it...


:elvis:

[Big Train]

WTF were they thinking with the Charger?

Uggh! RamWagon.

I remember going to the OC car show in 1999, they had a concept Charger there that was much more along the lines of the classic 69/70 in terms of shape, yet still very modern. I loved it. I told the rep standing next to it, if they built it, I'd put a standing order in right then and there. Then they came out with that box of crap Charger. They must have been dreaming of all the Crown Vic's they were going to replace as cop cars, which never really came true. Not widely anyway, I do see them around.

[Big Train]

0-60 in 10.8 seconds is fast apparently... :)


I've seen Elvis. Once he gets going down that hill and pops that clutch, that thing fuckin flies!! :biggrin:

[hideyoursheep]

I remember going to the OC car show in 1999, they had a concept Charger there that was much more along the lines of the classic 69/70 in terms of shape, yet still very modern. I loved it. I told the rep standing next to it, if they built it, I'd put a standing order in right then and there. Then they came out with that box of crap Charger. They must have been dreaming of all the Crown Vic's they were going to replace as cop cars, which never really came true. Not widely anyway, I do see them around.

Some of why they haven't replaced the CVPI is cost-effectiveness. They are still in use and very reliable. The big selling point for the Charger as a patrol car was the ability to run on 4 to 8 cylinders to save fuel.....you know they never do it!

Nonetheless, the Charger is a well put-together machine, just in my opinion, too damned ugly to be called Charger.

[Nickdfresh]

I sometimes post at another automotive message board, and the general consensus there is that Chrysler was doing very well in the early to mid-1990s. They had some minor quality control issues, but they also had a diverse line-up of cars that were generally solid. The biggest villains would be the scum that sold them out to Daimler and the resulting meltdown that hurt both Chrysler and Daimler forcing the spin off to Cerebus and the pairing down to a few shitty models...

[Nickdfresh]

So when you say fast you mean quick..:umm:

I really hate to see Dodge/ Chrysler take a shit. I have a soft spot for them since 2 out of my first 3 cars were Plymouth and Chrysler.

Trans coolers are a great idea, as well as oil coolers if you do a lot of highway driving like I do. The Merc Sable I had 2 years ago scared me when I drove it like I normaly drive my other car when I'm running late, ang the damned tranny light came on before I reached my exit! It wouldn't have lasted, so we parted ways.

My parents have a Sable (99' I think). The tranny fluid just needs to be changed out more frequently, or a synthetic like Mercon V used and they're fine...

[Nickdfresh]

I remember going to the OC car show in 1999, they had a concept Charger there that was much more along the lines of the classic 69/70 in terms of shape, yet still very modern. I loved it. I told the rep standing next to it, if they built it, I'd put a standing order in right then and there. Then they came out with that box of crap Charger. They must have been dreaming of all the Crown Vic's they were going to replace as cop cars, which never really came true. Not widely anyway, I do see them around.

They're used in a few states on the East Coast. I got blasted by one in Pennsylvania on Thanksgiving Day a couple years back. :pullinghair::cop::ky:

[FORD]

Maybe. maybe their the ones buying up the Mini Coopers that you have to sign up on a waiting list for to get? The one that the 500 nearly outsells in Europe...

How about the new Electric Mini?

http://www.motorauthority.com/content/thumbs/2/0/2010_mini_e_electric_vehicle_ev_la_auto_show_main6 30-1118-630x360.jpg

In a sign that Americans may truly be ready to embrace electric vehicles, including living with any shortcomings and paying a significant price premium, demand for BMW’s Mini E electric vehicle has outstripped supply by 4-to-1. Unfortunately, the plethora of applicants for the 450 available lease slots has delayed the process by up to four months.

Roughly 1,800 people have signed up to participate in the program. The selection process, designed to help Mini get the most out of its research program, was been slowed considerably by the wealth of choices, reports Automotive News. "We have to make sure their driving style fits with what we want. If you drive 200 miles a day, that's a longer daily drive than our range," Jim McDowell, vice president of Mini USA.

Already the list has been narrowed to about 1,000 people by the 16 dealers that are reviewing and selecting the candidates. The carmaker is looking to see how drivers cope with a limited-range vehicle, and monitor the reliability of the lithium-ion battery, which itself is still in relative infancy for the automotive industry. The company now hopes to have the final 450 selected by April.

The Mini E, which was revealed late last year at the Los Angeles Auto Show has a range of about 120 miles on a 2.5 hour charge and is being leased at $850 per month (about three times the prices of the regular petrol model).

The savings in fuel costs will offset the lease price somewhat, though the recent return to sane petrol prices in the U.S. has lessened that advantage to a degree. A standard Mini Cooper would cost about $350 for a 24-month lease, or nearly $800 for a hypothetical 12-month lease, though Mini's shortest offered term for its standard vehicles is currently 24 months. However, in California, where image counts for everything, the value of an electric Mini Cooper can hardly be measured.

Another key shortcoming is a lack of interior space. The Mini E features a 570lb (260kg) lithium-ion battery in place of the standard Mini Cooper’s rear seat (making it strictly a two-seater), and in the boot there is barely enough space for a gym bag.

BMW had previously planned to lease 250 examples in Southern California and 200 in metropolitan New York and New Jersey by March. The delay isn't expected to affect the allocation of those units, however. For those lucky enough to be involved in the world-first trial, BMW will still require them to document their experience in online surveys and keep a driver’s log. There are currently no plans for mass-production for the Mini E but that may change if the trial proves a success.

Link & more pictures (http://www.motorauthority.com/mini-usa-prices-electric-mini-cooper-lease-at-850mo.html)

Sounds promising..... as long as your a short single person looking for a daily commuter vehicle. Definitely not a choice for families or road trips. Let alone family road trips.

[Big Train]

http://www.rm-indy.com/wallpapers/Dodge-Charger_RT_Concept_Vehicle_1999_1600x1200_wallpape r_03.jpg

(kinda huge pic, so I put only the link)

Now THAT car I would have bought....ok, all three.

The 2010 concept is trying to go all "Dukes" on the current Charger frame. Just does not work.

[twonabomber]

Maybe. maybe their the ones buying up the Mini Coopers that you have to sign up on a waiting list for to get?

local Mini dealer has a couple lots full of 'em. can't imagine he's got 30+ cars only as test drivers. seen a few in the used lots around town also.

i'd say it's easier to get a Mini than a Smart right now.

[twonabomber]

http://www.rm-indy.com/wallpapers/Dodge-Charger_RT_Concept_Vehicle_1999_1600x1200_wallpape r_03.jpg

(kinda huge pic, so I put only the link)

Now THAT car I would have bought....ok, all three.

The 2010 concept is trying to go all "Dukes" on the current Charger frame. Just does not work.

the concept Charger is still very popular with posters at the Allpar forums. it reminds me a lot of the last Intrepid.

i liked the 300 Hemi C concept

http://www.autosrapidos.com/superautos/ch/chrysler-300hemicconcept01.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

local Mini dealer has a couple lots full of 'em. can't imagine he's got 30+ cars only as test drivers. seen a few in the used lots around town also.

i'd say it's easier to get a Mini than a Smart right now.


My information might be dated. But as of last Fall, the local BMW/Mini outlet basically laughed at you if you wanted one, signed you up to a list, then laughed again if you tried to haggle on the price...

My ex-girlfriend said "fuck-it" and leased a Mazda instead...

[Big Train]

the concept Charger is still very popular with posters at the Allpar forums. it reminds me a lot of the last Intrepid.

i liked the 300 Hemi C concept

http://www.autosrapidos.com/superautos/ch/chrysler-300hemicconcept01.jpg

If they had built cars like either of those designs, they would be in a different place entirely.

[hideyoursheep]

You LIKE the Intrepid, BT?

[Big Train]

No, referring to the concept vehicles (Hemi C, 99 charger).

Intrepids no way, I hate those giant windshields and odd angles.

[hideyoursheep]

No, referring to the concept vehicles (Hemi C, 99 charger).

Intrepids no way, I hate those giant windshields and odd angles.

the 300 Hemi C concept

http://www.autosrapidos.com/superautos/ch/chrysler-300hemicconcept01.jpg

Dodge Intrepid

<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/dodge%20intrepid" target="_blank"><img src="http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff129/blasy_ferdy/DodgeIntrepid.jpg" border="0" alt="Dodge Intrepid Pictures, Images and Photos"/></a>

[ELVIS]

All Chrysler plants close today...:(

[Kristy]

the concept Charger is still very popular with posters at the Allpar forums. it reminds me a lot of the last Intrepid.


http://www.autosrapidos.com/superautos/ch/chrysler-300hemicconcept01.jpg

Too many BMW-style overtones which doesn't surprise me. Even their Crossfire looked like a poor man's Mercedes.

[Igosplut]

My information might be dated. But as of last Fall, the local BMW/Mini outlet basically laughed at you if you wanted one, signed you up to a list, then laughed again if you tried to haggle on the price...

My ex-girlfriend said "fuck-it" and leased a Mazda instead...

I don't know anything about the new ones, but the 03-04-05s are pretty bad for repairs/factory fuckups right now. Wiring harnesses that cause odd problems, and electric/hydro power steering pumps that catch on fire are some of the highlights.

Also my junkyard guys tell me horror story's about the ones they get that have been hit in the front. Like there's nothing good from the rear window forward....

[Nickdfresh]

Too many BMW-style overtones which doesn't surprise me. Even their Crossfire looked like a poor man's Mercedes.

It basically was a Mercedes...

[Nickdfresh]

I don't know anything about the new ones, but the 03-04-05s are pretty bad for repairs/factory fuckups right now. Wiring harnesses that cause odd problems, and electric/hydro power steering pumps that catch on fire are some of the highlights...

Of course. They're made in Britain. :)

[Kristy]

It basically was a Mercedes...

Exactly. My dad who was a mechanic said that Chrysler/Mopar, except for some of their muscle cars, could not build a body that was worth a damn. Like I said, it doesn't surprise me that they are pretty much xeroxing styles from other manufacturers.

Hope it works our for them but still wouldn't ever buy one of their cars.

[Nickdfresh]

Exactly. My dad who was a mechanic said that Chrysler/Mopar, except for some of their muscle cars, could not build a body that was worth a damn. Like I said, it doesn't surprise me that they are pretty much xeroxing styles from other manufacturers.

Hope it works our for them but still wouldn't ever buy one of their cars.

Well, to be fair, they didn't have much of a choice. Daimler took them over and ruined them -actually, the bastards that fled a strong, cash-rich Chrysler with golden parachutes in the 90s are to blame more than anyone- but there was supposed to be a tech sharing arrangement...

[ELVIS]

Even their Crossfire looked like a poor man's Mercedes.

No, i'd say it's the other way around...

A used Crossfire SRT6 is on my list as well...


:elvis:

[Kristy]

(*hopes a mod will delete this double post*)

[Kristy]

I'm talking more than just their failure with Daimler. All Daimler did with Chrysler was try to create some sort of warped allegorical Euro/American style in order to remain in competition with the likes of Mercedes themselves. Talk about irony.

Someone in this thread mentioned the K car..?
http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/03/84_Reliant_Frt_RH_494.jpg

C'mon Nick, Chrysler shot themselves in the foot way before Daimler came along and amputated their feet.

[Nickdfresh]

I'm talking more than just their failure with Daimler. All Daimler did with Chrysler was try to create some sort of warped allegorical Euro/American style in order to remain in competition with the likes of Mercedes themselves. Talk about irony.

Someone in this thread mentioned the K car..?
http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/03/84_Reliant_Frt_RH_494.jpg

C'mon Nick, Chrysler shot themselves in the foot way before Daimler came along and amputated their feet.


I dunno. My old man had a K-fed car. :biggrin: Laugh all you want, but the thing was indestructible despite my best efforts in high school, and was easy to fix....

Daimler was one of the worst things that happened to them, they were actually sort of okay before that. In any case, it's looking more like they're going to be Fiat of North America with a bit of Opel thrown in. So, you're going to be seeing a lot of Euro-Chryslers in about two to five years...

[Igosplut]

I dunno. My old man had a K-fed car. Laugh all you want, but the thing was indestructible despite my best efforts in high school, and was easy to fix....

After about five years old they were notorious for bad head gaskets. So bad so I remember a guy that worked for a Chrysler dealer telling me they used to undo just the head bolts, nothing else and pick the head assembly up with an engine crane and just slide the head gasket out-and-in to beat the flat rate time they had so many to do. I know I did quite a few (not like that though)...

[Blaze]

I had a K-car too! Loved it! Couldn't destroy it. I had found it for sale a number of years back. It was garaged kept and with under 30,000 miles ( I do not remember the exact, but extremely low.) It was like a time warp. Everything always worked on it, because, like K stated, it was simple to fix.

[alexpgrimes]

All Chrysler plants close today...:(
I drove by the chrysler plant near toledo on the turnpike today. It was open.

[ELVIS]

Well, that's what I read earlier...

BTW, The K-car along with Mr. Iacocca is what saved chrysler, and The K platform was the basis for the Caravan all the way up to the current model...

They may have been ugly on the outside but they were simple and they worked...

The Turbo II motors were amazing inline fours...


:elvis:

[Igosplut]

.

but they were simple and they worked...


A lesson they soon forgot....

[alexpgrimes]

Well, that's what I read earlier...

BTW, The K-car along with Mr. Iacocca is what saved chrysler, and The K platform was the basis for the Caravan all the way up to the current model...

They may have been ugly on the outside but they were simple and they worked...

The Turbo II motors were amazing inline fours...


:elvis:

I had a lime green k-car. ran great the only thing that stopped it was getting hit by another car. the vinyl seats sucked in the winter..lol

[twonabomber]

A used Crossfire SRT6 is on my list as well...


i highly recommend the SRT-6. STOOPID fast, does 120+ with the air set on stun. here's mine...

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r169/mdallas07/xfi.jpg

there's supposedly a never-titled one in Knoxville, 233 miles, they're asking $26,900. sticker was close to $48,000...

[twonabomber]

It basically was a Mercedes...

first generation SLK platform. just about everything under the hood says Mercedes or Bosch. mine says AMG in quite a few spots.

[hideyoursheep]

Exactly. My dad who was a mechanic said that Chrysler/Mopar, except for some of their muscle cars, could not build a body that was worth a damn.

Even then they were an acquired taste. Not the prettiest compared to everyone else except AMC.


And they were death traps! Go fast, go straight, don't turn.

[hideyoursheep]

I notice the Chrysler thread is getting more love than it's GM counterpart...only 2 or 3 products of theirs would I even consider driving, and one is a 'Vette, the other is damn near a vette.
Not too practical, which is why they are where they are now, I suppose.

[Nickdfresh]

Actually, I think the Chevy Malibu is one of the sweetest looking sedans on the road. Nicer than the Honoyta Camcords...

[hideyoursheep]

I can't tell one Japanese car from another if it weren't for the nameplate.

[ELVIS]

You can't tell this...

http://www.ridestory.com/files/2009_Nissan_Z.jpg

From this ??

http://www.nextautos.com/files/images/2009&#37;20Toyota%20Corolla%20S.jpg


:elvis:

[hideyoursheep]

What are they? Fuck, I don't know!

[hideyoursheep]

I try to buy American......if there is such a thing anymore. I never look at those imports.

The Skyline is a different story....that one I can pick out of a lineup. :D

[hideyoursheep]

Where's the trunks with the full size spare?

Uh hu uh hu uh hu..

[ELVIS]

What are they? Fuck, I don't know!

The top is a new Nissan Z, great car...

The bottom is a new Toyota Corolla piece of shit...


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

So bad so I remember a guy that worked for a Chrysler dealer telling me they used to undo just the head bolts, nothing else and pick the head assembly up with an engine crane and just slide the head gasket out-and-in to beat the flat rate time they had so many to do.

That wouldn't work...


:elvis:

[Nickdfresh]

The top is a new Nissan Z, great car...

The bottom is a new Toyota Corolla piece of shit...


:elvis:

The Z is great. But I think I'd rather have a 'Vette...

And why people buy those Corollas over a Mazda3 I have no idea...I guess they're reliable "appliance" cars, but boring and they drive like shit. At least a 3 and a Civic handle well...

[Igosplut]

That wouldn't work...


:elvis:

Yea it did. Probably not for a long time though.

I've heard all kinds of story's from dealer techs trying to short-cut flat rate time.

[Nitro Express]

I smell Bilderberg involvment in the Chrysler/Fiat merger. It's makes no economic sense, something smells.


We all remember when recently Obama asked for a FIAT-CHRYSLER partnership as a pre-requisite to help CHRYSLER. Many wondered why that should be, since FIAT is such a small and pretty insignificant brand in the world of car-makers.

I am italian and I assure you that even from our small province this request appeared as pretty strange.

I think that the answer is in the Bilderberg attendees list, since one of the members is John Elkann, vice-chairman and major shareholder of FIAT (while a FORMER member was the CEO of Damien Chrysler).

For some reason, I think that the FIAT-CHRYSLER deal interests Obama as an exchange of favors with John Elkann and the european/italian front he represents.
In this scenario Obama is saving FIAT (which despite what is being said, has big problems) for some obscure reason which has a lot to do with Bilderberg inside-games and very little with what is convenient for the American citizen who will pay for this deal.

It can be also interesting to look into the story of the Elkann family, for example how they got FIAT from the hands of the Agnelli family. Edoardo Agnelli, the heir of the Agnelli family, a family that founded FIAT and owned it for decades, was found dead years ago in a very strange suicide accident (further note: he was a converted muslim; the Elkann family is a jewish family: it seems unlikely that these two fronts could cohabit inside the corporation, so one of the two had to prevail); other members of the family more recently publicly protested the ways by which the Elkann family got hold of the majority of FIAT and divided the money with other branches of the Agnelli family.

Anyway, John Elkann and Lapo Elkann have big protectors and links with the top elite... this was obvious also when last year Lapo Elkann was involved in a big cocaine+prostitutes scandal, went to the U.S. for rehab, and was later shown in the media as receiving friendly advices for his career from Henry Kissinger in person. What happened is that nobody ventured talking about the scandal anymore, and after few months Lapo Elkann was back as a hero for having pitched the supposedly winning "new FIAT 500" market strategy.

In all, it is a story worth looking into, starting from a deal that I am sure nobody at Chrysler really see as advantageous, but that they will be forced to do anyway, because Obama said so.

[Nitro Express]

Well, that's what I read earlier...

BTW, The K-car along with Mr. Iacocca is what saved chrysler, and The K platform was the basis for the Caravan all the way up to the current model...

They may have been ugly on the outside but they were simple and they worked...

The Turbo II motors were amazing inline fours...


:elvis:

I was the passenger in a K-car in upstate New York. While taking a snooze I was awoken by the huge noise of the car plowing through a corn field at high speed. I just saw huge masses of corn hitting the car. The driver fell asleep at the wheel. Other than some cosmetic damage and shit filled pants, the car got back on the road and got us home. LOL!

[Nitro Express]

People can make fun of the Reliant K, but it saved a declining car company and paid the US taxpayer loan back early. I would take a Reliant K over Obama any day.

[Nitro Express]

Daimler was after Chrysler's design team. Chrysler had a world class design facility thanks to Lee Iacocca but made the mistake of putting the same boring V6 engine in everything. Daimler wanted to improve it's design and came in with the premice it would add their engine and drive train expertice to the the Chrysler line. They just took what they wanted from Chrysler and let it rot and then let the tax payer save the mess while the fat cats jump ship.

[Nitro Express]

What killed Chrysler is they invented the mini van. LOL! Everyone with a family bought one and then they became taboo in the SUV age. Now you take a mini van and give it four wheel drive and call it a crossover. Station wagon became taboo and then mini van became taboo. A loser will drive a crossover in a few years when the Shambacko hoo ha design from Fiat replaces it.

[ELVIS]

I smell Bilderberg involvment in the Chrysler/Fiat merger. It's makes no economic sense, something smells.

Maybe so...

I'm all for trying to keep Chrysler, but this merger with Fiat might be a Fiat bailout in disguise and Chrysler might totally disappear...


Hmmm...


:elvis:

[hideyoursheep]

The Z is great. But I think I'd rather have a 'Vette......:lol: Who wouldn't???!!!


And why people buy those Corollas over a Mazda3 I have no idea...I guess they're reliable "appliance" cars, but boring and they drive like shit. At least a 3 and a Civic handle well...

Is it the price?



Man, fuck those Civics....I tried one for shits and giggles...it felt like a go-cart.

No, it wasn't a new one.

[hideyoursheep]

What killed Chrysler is they invented the mini van. LOL! Everyone with a family bought one and then they became taboo in the SUV age. Now you take a mini van and give it four wheel drive and call it a crossover. Station wagon became taboo and then mini van became taboo. A loser will drive a crossover in a few years when the Shambacko hoo ha design from Fiat replaces it.

IMO only a loser would make a decision to buy a certain type of vehicle based on anything but necessity. I never owned a so-called SUV, or a crossover, 'cause I already know how to drive on paved roads. Those things are ridiculous. I never understood them. You can't off-road with them because they're too fragile to treat that way, and they don't corner worth a shit. Not to mention the strain of what's usually a 6 cyl. having to pull those heavy fuckers around.

[ELVIS]

I like american cars, but I think Subaru makes the smartest cars in terms of practicality, reliability, safety and fun...

The latest Imprezza / WRX was a flop on an otherwise super successful car. In a survey I read in Car and Driver nearly two years ago, the WRX was the number one car in terms of, would an owner consider buying the same car again and reliability. And it's a high performance car, a segment not usually rated very high in reliability terms mainly because they're usually beaten to death by their owners. The last generation Vette scored high in these areas as well, but it's not at all as practical as the Subaru...


:elvis:

[hideyoursheep]

I like some American cars today. I'm not too keen on the import market. Hell, are they even imports anymore? They're being built here!

Soon, so many car companies will cross-pollinate and we will be left with the choice of buying some generic model of something that only looks different.

[hideyoursheep]

BTW ELVIS....

I found a lot of Neon's for sale this weekend for about a grand....

[ELVIS]

I know...

I just saw a nice Neon SRT-4 with low miles for $4995

It seems like people just give away the basic Neons...

But yeah, Hondas have been imported to Japan from here for over 20 years...


:elvis:

[hideyoursheep]

I've seen an American edition Toyota....I don't know what that means, but...

[ELVIS]

Well, Toyota builds many vehicles here, even here in Lousy-ana and import them from here to who knows where...

BTW, all of these Japanese companies here are non-union as far as I know, otherwise, those jobs would be in Mexico or some other third world country...

American edition Toyota ??

Was that like a specially badged model, because like I said, most Toyotas are built right here...


:elvis:

[hideyoursheep]

Yes, that's what the badge said...I don't know what it means...

[ELVIS]

it probably means it's $5000 more than the same car without the badge...

[Igosplut]

Well, Toyota builds many vehicles here, even here in Lousy-ana and import them from here to who knows where...

BTW, all of these Japanese companies here are non-union as far as I know, otherwise, those jobs would be in Mexico or some other third world country...

American edition Toyota ??

Was that like a specially badged model, because like I said, most Toyotas are built right here...


:elvis:

There's a big tariff on importing foreign motor vehicles the Regan set up to protect Harley-Davidson. So to circumvent that Toyota (among others) set up assembly plants in the US.

[ELVIS]

As will others in the future, hopefully, especially with a very downsized GM and whatever the hell happens to Chrysler...

[Nickdfresh]

:lol: Who wouldn't???!!!



Is it the price?



Man, fuck those Civics....I tried one for shits and giggles...it felt like a go-cart.

No, it wasn't a new one.

You can get a Mazda3 for less actually. I almost leased one....unfortunately, the 3 is the only decent thing Mazda makes...

[Nickdfresh]

Well, Toyota builds many vehicles here, even here in Lousy-ana and import them from here to who knows where...

BTW, all of these Japanese companies here are non-union as far as I know, otherwise, those jobs would be in Mexico or some other third world country...

...

:elvis:

Not in Japan...

But then, the unions in Japan were basically just drinking clubs and the Japanese corporate types had a different ethos as far as responsibility and treating their workers better to maximize motivation and productivity...

[ELVIS]

Yeah, twenty years ago they would execute your ass...

[Nickdfresh]

Yeah, twenty years ago they would execute your ass...

Not at all. They provided employment for life virtually guaranteed and paid high wages...

[hideyoursheep]

We are Japan's Mexico.

[Nitro Express]

Heh, Chrysler went bankrupt when they started putting "fine Corinthian leather" in their piece O' shit cars

http://daveandthomas.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/1976chryslercordobasportcoupe.jpg

Yeah. Not too mention the evil Kahn was selling that Corinthian leather. Probably the skin of genetically cloned Star Fleet personel.

[Nitro Express]

We are Japan's Mexico.

Soon to be China's Mexico. We have to send Secretary of State Hillary Clinton over to Bejing to beg for money so we can buy our Japanese cars.