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Nickdfresh
05-01-2009, 05:12 PM
FROM CNN’s Jack Cafferty: (http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/01/why-are-frequent-churchgoers-more-likely-to-support-torture/)

As the debate about torture rages on in Washington — with calls for investigations of the Bush administration — here’s a perhaps surprising nugget about how Americans view torture of suspected terrorists.

Turns out the more often people go to church, the more likely they are to support torture — that’s according to a new survey by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

The poll finds that of more than half of Americans who attend church services at least once a week, 54 percent say the use of torture is often or sometimes justified.

Only 42 percent of people who seldom or never go to church agree…

Evangelical Protestants are the religious group most likely to agree; while people unaffiliated with any religious group are least likely to support torture.

Of course evangelicals were a major voting bloc courted by President Bush both times he ran for office; and former Bush officials continue to speak out now about how the harsh techniques yielded critical information that helped keep this country safe. But it’s ironic that the faithful are more supportive of torture, isn’t it?

Overall, Pew found 49 percent of Americans say torture is at least “sometimes” justified; while 47 percent say it rarely or never is. Republicans are more likely to support the actions than Democrats; while a majority of Independents believe that torture is sometimes justified.

Here’s my question to you: Why is it that the more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support torture of suspected terrorists?

Tune in to the Situation Room at 5pm to see if Jack reads your answer on air.

And, we love to know where you’re writing from, so please include your city and state with your comment.

Praise Jesus! God lets us torture, because if we don't all of the terrorist attacks he lets kill children will get us!!:umm:

Jesus Christ
05-01-2009, 06:22 PM
Verily, Nicodemus this is most troubling.

For even as I, the Son of Man, was tortured Myself, I would never wish such a thing on anyone else.

Those who say otherwise in My name are not My disciples. :(

swage33
05-01-2009, 06:39 PM
Wow...Jack KKKaferty has a huge beef with protestant christians. Who would have thought to compile data this way?

Nickdfresh
05-01-2009, 08:29 PM
Wow...Jack KKKaferty has a huge beef with protestant christians. Who would have thought to compile data this way?

He didn't "compile (the) data," a Christian oriented website did, dummy...

BTW, do you like torture? Are you a Christian? Am I correct in saying you are affirmative to the former but are not professed to the latter? Then why would you even give a shit?

FORD
05-01-2009, 08:51 PM
Cletus spells it "KKKhristian" and the crosses in his church are usually on fire.

swage33
05-01-2009, 09:20 PM
He didn't "compile (the) data," a Christian oriented website did, dummy...

BTW, do you like torture? Are you a Christian? Am I correct in saying you are affirmative to the former but are not professed to the latter? Then why would you even give a shit?

What the fuck are you, Nick? You arrogant pompous ass. You'll call me out for tough guy talk but you are more guilty than me. How convenient it must be to stand for nothing and ridicule others for their beliefs.

In a wasted attempt to stay on topic...I do think these fucks should have been tortured, humiliated and belittled. They are not soldiers, they are thugs. Don't let the scale of their efforts blind you to what they really are. They are thugs, plain and simple...were they American thugs they would have full access to the American justice system but they are not. They stand under no flag and they wear no uniform. They are entitled to nothing provided by any law on this planet. You're a fucking asshole.

swage33
05-01-2009, 09:24 PM
Cletus spells it "KKKhristian" and the crosses in his church are usually on fire.

You are a fucking cartoon worm! When Nick lays into me, here you come....hanging on to his belt loop. You are a fucking joke. If Nick fell off the planet you would have to jump off after him. Dick head!

FORD
05-01-2009, 09:29 PM
Drink some corn squeezins and calm down Cletus. You know what Uncle Daddy said about your blood pressure.

swage33
05-01-2009, 09:32 PM
Drink some corn squeezins and calm down Cletus. You know what Uncle Daddy said about your blood pressure.


Look! Ford quit sucking off Nick long enough to type some shit. We all appreciate that, Ford, but, Nick's dick is getting dry so....back to work!

kwame k
05-01-2009, 09:41 PM
In a wasted attempt to stay on topic...I do think these fucks should have been tortured, humiliated and belittled. They are not soldiers, they are thugs.

Jesus Christ dude, you're missing the whole point........put aside the legal ramifications and look at purely the effectiveness of torture. Our own government has said torture is ineffective for getting reliable information from suspects. Fuck listening to the talking heads and read the government reports.

The fact remains that if something doesn't work, why continue to use it? If you're using it and you know it doesn't work.........you're not trying to get information, you're exacting revenge.

swage33
05-01-2009, 09:48 PM
Jesus Christ dude, you're missing the whole point........put aside the legal ramifications and look at purely the effectiveness of torture. Our own government has said torture is ineffective for getting reliable information from suspects. Fuck listening to the talking heads and read the government reports.

The fact remains that if something doesn't work, why continue to use it? If you're using it and you know it doesn't work.........you're not trying to get information, you're exacting revenge.

I think, maybe, you're missing the point. Information was a happy side effect of "torture". And, yes, it was an exacting of revenge. It was punishment. It was mean and hateful. And, it was so called for!

Nickdfresh
05-01-2009, 10:01 PM
What the fuck are you, Nick?

I think you answered your own question...


You arrogant pompous ass.

And?


You'll call me out for tough guy talk but you are more guilty than me. How convenient it must be to stand for nothing and ridicule others for their beliefs.

You sound so hurt - like a wounded fawn. Need a hug? What are your "beliefs?"


In a wasted attempt to stay on topic...I do think these fucks should have been tortured, humiliated and belittled. They are not soldiers, they are thugs. Don't let the scale of their efforts blind you to what they really are. They are thugs, plain and simple...were they American thugs they would have full access to the American justice system but they are not. They stand under no flag and they wear no uniform. They are entitled to nothing provided by any law on this planet. You're a fucking asshole.

Um, who are "they?"

And suck my what?

swage33
05-01-2009, 10:11 PM
I think you answered your own question...



And?



You sound so hurt - like a wounded fawn. Need a hug? What are your "beliefs?"



Um, who are "they?"

And suck my what?

Here we are, arguing on the Front Line. A Forum created for political discussions following 9/11. Form 9/11 to today, where are we? We are debating how we could have treated these fucks better. We were too mean...we were unfair...we went too far. We haven't went far enough. Those were not soldiers that died in the twin towers...they were everyday people like Thome and me. Remember, Nick? The peasent that works with his hands? You should be embarassed. Anywho...fuck these terrorist motherfuckers...call them what you want, enemy combatants or victims of the BCE or Fords competition for Nick's miniscule schlonger. If they lifted a weapon against our troops following 9/11 I say FUCK'em.

FORD
05-01-2009, 10:20 PM
..they were everyday people like Thome and me.

It would take hours to cover everything that's terribly wrong with that sentence.

swage33
05-01-2009, 10:22 PM
It would take hours to cover everything that's terribly wrong with that sentence.

I'll bet all you have is time. Get your check today, big man?

Nickdfresh
05-01-2009, 10:33 PM
Here we are, arguing on the Front Line. A Forum created for political discussions following 9/11. Form 9/11 to today, where are we?

I don't know. Where are we?


We are debating how we could have treated these fucks better.

Is that what we are debating? Well, please define who "these fucks" are...


We were too mean...we were unfair...we went too far. We haven't went far enough. Those were not soldiers that died in the twin towers...they were everyday people like Thome and me. Remember, Nick? The peasent that works with his hands? You should be embarassed. Anywho...fuck these terrorist motherfuckers...call them what you want, enemy combatants or victims of the BCE or Fords competition for Nick's miniscule schlonger. If they lifted a weapon against our troops following 9/11 I say FUCK'em.

Um, as much as I do not want to visualize you and Thome working each other with your hands :019: Most of the people that died on that day were not "hand workers," most were in white collar positions tied to Wall St.

Um, the terrorists on 9/11 died in the Twin Towers and the few others that were implicated in that crime were picked up soon after. So, what is your point about torturing "them?" If someone lifted a weapon against our troops, that makes them an insurgent and they deserve protections afforded by the Geneva Convention. But then, almost none were actually picked up by US troops, and most were turned over by the Northern Alliance...

BTW, we killed many German and Japanese civilians on bombing raids during WWII. Do our soldiers deserve torture now?

swage33
05-01-2009, 10:37 PM
I don't know. Where are we?



Is that what we are debating? Well, please define who "these fucks" are...



Um, as much as I do not want to visualize you and Thome working each other with your hands :019: Most of the people that died on that day were not "hand workers," most were in white collar positions tied to Wall St.

Um, the terrorists on 9/11 died in the Twin Towers and the few others that were implicated in that crime were picked up soon after. So, what is your point about torturing "them?" If someone lifted a weapon against our troops, that makes them an insurgent and they deserve protections afforded by the Geneva Convention. But then, almost none were actually picked up by US troops, and most were turned over by the Northern Alliance...

BTW, we killed many German and Japanese civilians on bombing raids during WWII. Do our soldiers deserve torture now?

So, our WW2 soldiers are the same as terrorists? You may want to edit that post....Dumbass!

Nickdfresh
05-01-2009, 10:39 PM
So, our WW2 soldiers are the same as terrorists? You may want to edit that post....Dumbass!

Not exactly, but they killed innocent women and children. And on at least one instance, were told by a high ranking US air general that they were "babykillers," and in effect - that they might as well get used to it...

Does an enemy get to torture them now? So, are our soldiers to be put at risk of torture by you and your "beliefs?"

swage33
05-01-2009, 10:48 PM
Not exactly, but they killed innocent women and children. And on at least one instance, were told by a high ranking US air general that they were "babykillers," and in effect - that they might as well get used to it...

Well, here we have it. Here is the source of Nick's hatred for America. In Nick's eyes, every man and woman that has entered the armed forces is in fact a criminal. Every veteran has perpetrated crimes against every "enemy" they have faced. In Nick's mind, we have no moral superiority over any thug on this planet...our veterans and terrorists are one and the same. This would lend logic to Nick's thought process that seems to suggest that we owe terrorists an apology for the shabby treatment they recieved from us. I'll be right back...gotta schedule most of southern WVA for a waterboarding. Thanks, Nick...I didn't know they were all no good motherfuckers. Most of whom were draftees, by the way.

Nickdfresh
05-01-2009, 10:49 PM
Well, here we have it. Here is the source of Nick's hatred for America. In Nick's eyes, every man and woman that has entered the armed forces is in fact a criminal. Every veteran has perpetrated crimes against every "enemy" they have faced. In Nick's mind, we have no moral superiority over any thug on this planet...our veterans and terrorists are one and the same. This would lend logic to Nick's thought process that seems to suggest that we owe terrorists an apology for the shabby treatment they recieved from us. I'll be right back...gotta schedule most of southern WVA for a waterboarding. Thanks, Nick...I didn't know they were all no good motherfuckers. Most of whom were draftees, by the way.

You're the one that believes that US military personnel should be tortured, not me.

BTW, pussybitch chickenhawk, I noticed that you were too inbred and lacked the teeth to join the military. So, please don't try to speak for them...

swage33
05-01-2009, 10:51 PM
You're the one that believes that US military personnel should be tortured, not me.

Is this some childish "no, you are" comment or do you have a point to make?

Nickdfresh
05-01-2009, 10:52 PM
Is this some childish "no, you are" comment or do you have a point to make?

You are justifying why our enemies have the right to torture them!

Nickdfresh
05-01-2009, 10:54 PM
Why do you hate America, Fage69?

FORD
05-01-2009, 10:57 PM
Cletus, here are two things about the BCE's torture that even you cannot possibly justify:

1) It was done to create false confessions provide a FALSE link between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, to create a false "justification" to invade Iraq.

2) They tortured CHILDREN.

I don't give a fuck if Khalid Sheik Ron Jeremy is guilty of absoultely every thing the BCE accused him of or not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Since his own "confession" was under torture, it was probably 99% bullshit. But let's assume that he's a total piece of shit like they say he is. That doesn't justify harming his children, or any other children.

Nothing does. Period.

And the BCE absolutely MUST be prosecuted for that, if not for any of their other numerous crimes.

Children, Cletus. Fucking think about that. And think what Jesus Christ would say about it.

I can tell you what He would say. It would involve millstones being hung around the necks of these fucking BCE mutants, and being tossed overboard in the open sea.

swage33
05-01-2009, 11:03 PM
You are justifying why our enemies have the right to torture them!


Un-fucking-believable! I guess they decapitated a journalist because we did. It is delusion of the highest order that would lead you to believe that they will follow our example. They are going to give our guys the worse treatment possible....regardless of our behavior. You are fucking sick if you think these guys even dreamed about reason. They are Arab, Muslim extremists and THEY HATE OUR GUTS! I'll tell you what, sweetie...if they cought you wandering around with the cure in your hand they would KILL YOU. A grown up would get this...I just.....how old are you?

swage33
05-01-2009, 11:07 PM
Cletus, here are two things about the BCE's torture that even you cannot possibly justify:

1) It was done to create false confessions provide a FALSE link between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, to create a false "justification" to invade Iraq.

2) They tortured CHILDREN.

I don't give a fuck if Khalid Sheik Ron Jeremy is guilty of absoultely every thing the BCE accused him of or not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Since his own "confession" was under torture, it was probably 99% bullshit. But let's assume that he's a total piece of shit like they say he is. That doesn't justify harming his children, or any other children.

Nothing does. Period.

And the BCE absolutely MUST be prosecuted for that, if not for any of their other numerous crimes.

Children, Cletus. Fucking think about that. And think what Jesus Christ would say about it.

I can tell you what He would say. It would involve millstones being hung around the necks of these fucking BCE mutants, and being tossed overboard in the open sea.

I'm touched to see your concern for children. I guess your love of children begins only after they pass through a vagina. Prior to that they are fair game, right?

GAR
05-01-2009, 11:10 PM
In the intelligence game, if we simply shoot them in a war, they're dead and the intel they had goes with them to Allah.

This is all politicized bullshit from the left-side of a bed that the fags and liberals have shat many a time before.

The Democrats that are worth their salt should see the severe conservative backlash coming up in 2011 and do everything they possibly can to move their party back to center.

If they do not, they'll endure another 25 year Republican reign. They must want that!

GAR
05-01-2009, 11:11 PM
You are justifying why our enemies have the right to torture them!

They do it anyways. Then they kill 'em.

Here, we get the intel, they get to have Snickers and coffee, and live to mumble to Mecca one more day.

swage33
05-01-2009, 11:15 PM
Uh-Oh...here come my peeps.

ELVIS
05-01-2009, 11:22 PM
How come you fags are so against doing anything to the enemy, but when our troops get in trouble for DOING THEIR JOB, we hear nothing from you queers ??

FORD
05-01-2009, 11:22 PM
http://www.law.du.edu/jenkins/images/kkk.gif

Uh-Oh...here come my peeps.

FORD
05-01-2009, 11:24 PM
How come you fags are so against doing anything to the enemy, but when our troops get in trouble for DOING THEIR JOB, we hear nothing from you queers ??

I never wanted them there in the first goddamn place, because defending the goddamn oil fields and establishing the fucking regional military supremacy of Israel is NOT their job.

ELVIS
05-01-2009, 11:24 PM
That pic is from the 20's or 30's, FORD

ELVIS
05-01-2009, 11:26 PM
I never wanted them there in the first goddamn place, because defending the goddamn oil fields and establishing the fucking regional military supremacy of Israel is NOT their job.

Well, I don't think we should be there either, but I do support Israel...

swage33
05-01-2009, 11:27 PM
http://www.law.du.edu/jenkins/images/kkk.gif


You're getting funnier, dude...that was pretty good.

FORD
05-01-2009, 11:27 PM
That pic is from the 20's or 30's, FORD

Yeah, but the Grand Wizard in front is Cletus' great grandaddy.

swage33
05-01-2009, 11:32 PM
Yeah, but the Grand Wizard in front is Cletus' great grandaddy.


Nope! You lost it. How dare you speak of my great grandaddy that way. It just so happens that he was an Arab, child terrorists and therefore your messiah.

FORD
05-01-2009, 11:39 PM
Nope! You lost it. How dare you speak of my great grandaddy that way. It just so happens that he was an Arab, child terrorists and therefore your messiah.

My Messiah was Jewish. But the Romans and Pharisees DID call Him a "terrorist" :(

swage33
05-01-2009, 11:41 PM
My Messiah was Jewish. But the Romans and Pharisees DID call Him a "terrorist" :(

You worship Jackie Mason? To each his own.

thome
05-01-2009, 11:46 PM
Cletus, here are two things about the BCE's torture that even you cannot possibly justify:

1) It was done to create false confessions provide a FALSE link between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, to create a false "justification" to invade Iraq..


We invaded Iraq before all of this retoric posted in all of these torture threads and the events described within, took place.

NEXT

FORD
05-01-2009, 11:54 PM
Jackie Mason's no terrorist. He's just a horrible comedian, and a right wing Likudist asshole.

FORD
05-01-2009, 11:56 PM
We invaded Iraq before all of this retoric posted in all of these torture threads and the events described within, took place.

NEXT

The BCE started rounding up people for torture in November 2001. Chimpy didn't invade Iraq until March 2003.

NEXT

ELVIS
05-01-2009, 11:59 PM
Proove that...

thome
05-02-2009, 12:04 AM
Then you Ok the Torture of the terrotists and colaborators who performed the first World Trade Center bombing...?

And all the MR'ers, -Your- man Clinton, tortured.

Or were they given CANDY AND A NEW BICYCLE!!!

Next....

swage33
05-02-2009, 12:04 AM
Jackie Mason's no terrorist. He's just a horrible comedian, and a right wing Likudist asshole.

Horrible? Come on...that's a funny dude.

FORD
05-02-2009, 12:08 AM
Then you Ok the Torture of the terrotists and colaborators who performed the first World Trade Center bombing...?

And all the MR'ers, -Your- man Clinton, tortured.

Or were they given CANDY AND A NEW BICYCLE!!!

Next....

They were tried and convicted under the legitimate Constitutional laws of the United States of America and/or State of New York.

Same with the terrorists who bombed the Murrah Building in OKC. Tried, convicted, and in the case of McVeigh, executed. All under the law, as it should be.

thome
05-02-2009, 12:31 AM
In my best upper Boston Jewish Jackie Mason voice..."If you had a nose like this you would eat ants too".

The only line I ever remember^

Of course it is John Byner doing Jackie but c'mon Mason was the shizz.

YouTube - the Ant and the Aardvark - 03 - The Ant from UNCLE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zZlbjN_hXg)

Nickdfresh
05-02-2009, 05:41 AM
They do it anyways. Then they kill 'em.

Here, we get the intel, they get to have Snickers and coffee, and live to mumble to Mecca one more day.

I thought you wanted to get American soldiers killed, then taunt their mothers about it, faggot.

Go sell a guitar, retard...

Seshmeister
05-02-2009, 10:01 AM
We invaded Iraq before all of this retoric posted in all of these torture threads and the events described within, took place.

NEXT

You are completely wrong.

Nickdfresh
05-02-2009, 10:17 AM
Un-fucking-believable! I guess they decapitated a journalist because we did. It is delusion of the highest order that would lead you to believe that they will follow our example. They are going to give our guys the worse treatment possible....regardless of our behavior. You are fucking sick if you think these guys even dreamed about reason. They are Arab, Muslim extremists and THEY HATE OUR GUTS! I'll tell you what, sweetie...if they cought you wandering around with the cure in your hand they would KILL YOU. A grown up would get this...I just.....how old are you?


You're a retard. The guys that "decapitated" the journalist and whoever else are pretty much all dead. And the reason many of them were able to kill Americans was because we stupidly invaded Iraq giving them ready access to US troops and contractors...

And don't call me "sweetie," I'm not your sister...

thome
05-02-2009, 10:41 AM
You're a retard. The guys that "decapitated" the journalist and whoever else are pretty much all dead. And the reason many of them were able to kill Americans was because we stupidly invaded Iraq giving them ready access to US troops and contractors...

And don't call me "sweetie," I'm not your sister...

Shirley,.. You Jest..?

We all know why you throw out bait like this, but I will comment anyway.:barf:


Well,.... There he goes again, creating the story that terrorism and murdered journalists was created by The BCE.

The Invasion of Iraq happened before 911.

The handgun got up and killed the poor sonovabitch not the psyco terrorist.

If the BCE wouldn't have funded the -Wright Brothers- we wouldn't have to worry about planes flying into buildings.

Haliburton fueled the jets on the runway and left the keys in it.

Next....

Nickdfresh
05-02-2009, 10:56 AM
Not enough attention from Blaze, Thome? Fuck off...

thome
05-02-2009, 11:02 AM
Ooochie dat hurtz..

Meester,..Neek Due Freache

ZahZoo
05-02-2009, 11:23 AM
To say the more active one is in judeo-christian western religious participation... they are more supportive of torture is somewhat misleading and not a clear measurement of the penchant for violence against others.

I think if you take religion out of the poll you'd still get roughly the same percentage of half the population of any demographic supportive of torture under certain conditions.

On the other hand those deeply entrenched in any religion... historically violence against others tends to be quite prevalent. Over the last 5000 year more humans have died as a result of religion than any other motivation.

The current trend of a more secular minded folks are starting to see the intelect in the effectiveness or lack of in violence. Take the religion out and people tend to chill and think stuff out.

The whole debate is an interesting dichotomy... religion tends to support and sell peaceful non-violent coexistance among peoples at it's root. Yet the more deeply committed... most tend to be the most ruthless, violent people on earth.

GAR
05-02-2009, 01:45 PM
The whole debate is an interesting dichotomy... religion tends to support and sell peaceful non-violent coexistance among peoples at it's root. Yet the more deeply committed... most tend to be the most ruthless, violent people on earth.

There was a whole History Channel episode on the subject of the Death Penalty and laws of execution, with a number of legal, judicial and psychological experts in the discussion who were interviewed.

Basically, along a broad swatch of society not just those with Judeo-Christian based mores, throughout Western Civilization going back to Greek and Roman times capital punishments and torture purged society of corrupt values and distorted morals such as we see today.

Back then, torture and execution was the accepted expectation of crossing boundaries of behaviour which we're beginning to see a lack of cause-and-effect in the younger generation that lacks both discipline and the reward mechanism of receiving from the results of their efforts.

A recent Sean Hannity interview with the John McCain I watched on Fox News, Sean asked "do you believe in torture when all other forms of interrogation fail" McCain said "I don't believe in it because it is illegal under the Geneva Convention which we're signed on to."

swage33
05-02-2009, 06:54 PM
You're a retard. The guys that "decapitated" the journalist and whoever else are pretty much all dead. And the reason many of them were able to kill Americans was because we stupidly invaded Iraq giving them ready access to US troops and contractors...

And don't call me "sweetie," I'm not your sister...

don't call me retard, sweetie....I'm not your buddie, Ford.

Big Train
05-03-2009, 02:45 AM
This study is profiling....and profiling is WRONG. I always wanted to try out a lib saying...might even draw it up on a sign and walk around.

The study's usefulness is based around how the questions and followup questions were posed and answered. Were they comfortable with torture FOR religious reasons (which would say whether or not the correlation means a damn). Secondly, were they more comfortable with the idea as an alternative to murder (which has other religious ramifications)? The article only indicates questions like: Under certain circumstances, are you more comfortable with torture?

It's stupid to use religion as an identifier to make make a comparison. Just as effective might be to say , how do poor people feel about torture? Are the middle class ok with it? You would probably get the same results. But that doesn't move the news needle like attacking people's beliefs does.

I was raised a Protestant, it's our nature to question things, like half-assed studies delivered by half-assed reporters.

hideyoursheep
05-03-2009, 03:30 AM
I was raised a Protestant, it's our nature to question things, like half-assed studies delivered by half-assed reporters.

But not your nature to question the manner in which your rule book was edited.

hideyoursheep
05-03-2009, 06:10 AM
Bronze Star w/ 'V' device winner Joe Galloway unloads on Obama, Pelosi, Bush, Cheney and everyone unwilling to address torture with the same vigor he did to the NVA in the Ia Drang Valley November, 1965

Joseph L. Galloway is a military columnist for McClatchy Newspapers and a former senior military correspondent for Knight Ridder Newspapers; he is co-author of the national best-seller “We Were Soldiers Once … and Young.”

Ledger-Enquirer.com | 05/03/2009 | Washington still dancing the torture minuet (http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/sunday_voices/story/706776.html)






Wrestle with that, chickenhawks!

Nickdfresh
05-03-2009, 08:57 AM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/Nickdfresh/funny-5.jpgdon't call me retard, sweetie....I'm not your buddie, Ford.


You're right, this is a clear offense to the mentally challenged...

Big Train
05-03-2009, 11:47 AM
But not your nature to question the manner in which your rule book was edited.

While I'm not practicing, actually the opposite is true. Martin Luther and I still have some unanswered questions about the rule book, which put things in motion.

hideyoursheep
05-04-2009, 12:17 AM
While I'm not practicing, actually the opposite is true. Martin Luther and I still have some unanswered questions about the rule book, which put things in motion.

What a great idea for a thread!!

Big Train
05-04-2009, 02:02 AM
It would be, there is a lot to cover there.

I'm waiting for your threads full of genius, instead of your latest pithy comment. Please enlighten us with your own intelligent thread.

hideyoursheep
05-04-2009, 02:17 AM
It would be, there is a lot to cover there.

I'm waiting for your threads full of genius, instead of your latest pithy comment. Please enlighten us with your own intelligent thread.

Who exactly is us?

Your string is showing.

Don't start whining like a biatch that I take things personal with you when you start flailing your arms because you don't like my responses to your copy-paste op-eds, Napoleon.

Now do you have anything else to say on the thread subject, or are you gonna drool all over the thread because of your obsession with having the last word?

Big Train
05-04-2009, 02:29 AM
Who exactly is us?

Your string is showing.

Don't start whining like a biatch that I take things personal with you when you start flailing your arms because you don't like my responses to your copy-paste op-eds, Napoleon.

Now do you have anything else to say on the thread subject, or are you gonna drool all over the thread because of your obsession with having the last word?

Your huggies are showing. Us would be anyone who has to scroll past yet another post of yours that says "this sucks", with nothing else of intelligence to add. Makes Thome seem readable.

Stop being such a fag because I asked you to contribute a meaningful thread. Just admit you don't accept the challenge. Nothing personal here, just don't think you whining adds anything to a thread.

hideyoursheep
05-04-2009, 02:40 AM
The irony.......the irony.......

Big Train
05-04-2009, 10:23 AM
Thanks for proving my point with that post.

Nickdfresh
05-05-2009, 08:10 AM
4th-grader asks Rice about torture
'The president was not prepared to do something illegal,' she replies
The Associated Press
updated 6:18 p.m. ET, Mon., May 4, 2009

WASHINGTON - Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told Jewish elementary school students that the Bush administration did not use illegal interrogation tactics. Her remarks were in response to a question from Misha Lerner, a fourth-grader at the Jewish Primary Day School of the Nation's Capital, The Washington Post reported Monday.

Rice spoke at the school Sunday before giving a lecture at the Sixth & I Historic Synagogue.

Lerner asked Rice what she thought about the Obama administration's remarks on interrogation methods authorized by its predecessors.

Rice responded that she didn't want to criticize President Barack Obama. But she also said that President George W. Bush assured his administration that "we would do nothing, nothing, that was against the law or against our obligations internationally."

"I hope you understand that it was a very difficult time. We were all so terrified of another attack on the country," she said. "Even under those most difficult circumstances, the president was not prepared to do something illegal, and I hope people understand that we were trying to protect the country."

Last week the former secretary of state told Stanford University students that "we did not torture anyone."

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press.

Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30566558/?gt1=43001)

Seshmeister
05-05-2009, 09:13 AM
Fucking witch!

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Rather than debating students, setting up straw dog arguments as she does here they should try some 'enhanced interrogation' on her.

LoungeMachine
05-05-2009, 09:25 AM
Rice
Cheney
Gonzalez
Rumsfeld
Bush

5 people who should be on trial......

Seshmeister
05-05-2009, 10:36 AM
She seems to be using the Nixon argument - if the president says it's not illegal it's not illegal.

That's a fucking pre Magna Carta 800 year old argument...

lesfunk
05-05-2009, 01:17 PM
Fucking witch!




That's politically incorrect. They prefer the term "African Americans"

MUSICMANN
05-05-2009, 04:14 PM
For all that keep thinking that under the Bush Adminstration, the US did something out of step with how other presidents handled detainees, need to read this. The US in the past has done far worse to actual POW's than what the CIA has done to Terroist by using some sleep depravation and water boarding. The point i'm trying to make is, stop bashing Bush. His term is done and over and i would bet my life that Obama will do the same if it means protecting America from harm. It does seem like he will get his chance with the Taliban marching on the capital of pakistan and their nukes hanging in the balance. Some of you here need to grow up and come live in the real world. War can make a country do some out of the ordinary things against soilders from another country. War against a enemy that is part of no country and has no code, should not be in any shape or form considered the same.



Contents [hide]
1 Ancient times
2 Middle Ages
3 Modern times
3.1 Hague and Geneva Conventions
3.2 Qualifications
3.3 The United States Military Code of Conduct
4 World War I
4.1 Release of prisoners
5 World War II
5.1 Treatment of POWs by the Axis
5.2 Treatment of POWs by the Allies
6 Post World War II
7 Numbers of POWs
8 See also
9 References
10 Further reading
11 External links



[edit] Ancient times
For most of human history, depending on the culture of the victors, combatants on the losing side in a battle could expect to be either slaughtered, to eliminate them as a future threat, or enslaved, bringing economic and social benefits to the victorious side and its soldiers. Typically, little distinction was made between combatants and civilians, although women and children were more likely to be spared. Sometimes the purpose of a battle, if not a war, was to capture women, a practice known as raptio; the Rape of the Sabines was a notable mass capture by the founders of Rome. Typically women had no rights, were held legally as chattel, and would not be accepted back by their birth families once they had borne children to those who had killed their brothers and fathers.

Likewise the distinction between POW and slave is not always clear. Some of the Native Americans captured Europeans and used them as both labourers and bargaining chips; see for example John R. Jewitt, an Englishman who wrote a memoir about his years as a captive of the Nootka people on the Pacific Northwest Coast in 1802–1805.


[edit] Middle Ages
See also: Prisoners of war in Islam
During the Middle Ages, a number of religious wars were particularly ferocious. In Christian Europe, the extermination of the heretics or "non-believers" was considered desirable. Examples include the 13th century Albigensian Crusade and the Northern Crusades.[1] Likewise the inhabitants of conquered cities were frequently massacred during the Crusades against the Muslims in the 11th century and the 12th century. Noblemen could hope to be ransomed; their families would have to send to their captors large sums of wealth commensurate with the social status of the captive. In the samurai-dominated Japan there was no custom of ransoming prisoners of war, who were for the most part summarily executed.[2] In pre-Islamic Arabia, upon capture, those captives not executed, were made to beg for their subsistence. During the early reforms under Islam, Muhammad changed this custom and made it the responsibility of the Islamic government to provide food and clothing, on a reasonable basis, to captives, regardless of their religion. If the prisoners were in the custody of a person, then the responsibility was on the individual.[3] He established the rule that prisoners of war must be guarded and not ill-treated, and that after the fighting was over, the prisoners were expected to be either released or ransomed. The freeing of prisoners in particular was highly recommended as a charitable act. Mecca was the first city to have the benevolent code applied. However, Christians who were captured in the Crusades were sold into slavery if they could not pay a ransom.[4]

The 1648 Peace of Westphalia, which ended the Thirty Years' War, established the rule that prisoners of war should be released without ransom at the end of hostilities and that they should be allowed to return to their homelands.[5]


[edit] Modern times

A Pakistan stamp depicting the 90,000 PoWs in Indian camps captured after the 1971 Indo-Pakistani War. This stamp was issued with the political aim of raising global awareness to help secure their release. The POWs were released by India after the Simla Agreement.During the 19th century, efforts increased to improve the treatment and processing of prisoners. The extensive period of conflict during the Revolutionary War and Napoleonic Wars (1793-1815), followed by the Anglo-American War of 1812, led to the emergence of a cartel system for the exchange of prisoners, even while the belligerents were at war. A cartel was usually arranged by the respective armed service for the exchange of like ranked personnel. The aim was to achieve a reduction in the number of prisoners held, while at the same time alleviating shortages of skilled personnel in the home country.

Later, as result of these emerging conventions a number of international conferences were held, starting with the Brussels Conference of 1874, with nations agreeing that it was necessary to prevent inhumane treatment of prisoners and the use of weapons causing unnecessary harm. Although no agreements were immediately ratified by the participating nations, work was continued that resulted in new conventions being adopted and becoming recognized as international law, that specified that prisoners of war are required to be treated humanely and diplomatically.


[edit] Hague and Geneva Conventions
Specifically, Chapter II of the Annex to the 1907 Hague Convention covered the treatment of prisoners of war in detail. These were further expanded in the Third Geneva Convention of 1929, and its revision of 1949. Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention protects captured military personnel, some guerrilla fighters and certain civilians. It applies from the moment a prisoner is captured until he or she is released or repatriated. One of the main provisions of the convention makes it illegal to torture prisoners and states that a prisoner can only be required to give their name, date of birth, rank and service number (if applicable).

However, nations vary in their dedication to following these laws, and historically the treatment of POWs has varied greatly. During the 20th century, Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were notorious for atrocities against prisoners during World War II. The German military used the Soviet Union's refusal to sign the Geneva Convention as a reason for not providing the necessities of life to Russian POWs. North Korean and North Vietnamese forces routinely killed or mistreated prisoners taken during those conflicts.


[edit] Qualifications
To be entitled to prisoner-of-war status, captured service members must be lawful combatants entitled to combatant's privilege—which gives them immunity from punishment for crimes constituting lawful acts of war, e.g., killing enemy troops. To qualify under the Third Geneva Convention, a combatant must have conducted military operations according to the laws and customs of war, be part of a chain of command, wear a "fixed distinctive marking, visible from a distance" and bear arms openly. Thus, uniforms and/or badges are important in determining prisoner-of-war status; and francs-tireurs, "terrorists", saboteurs, mercenaries and spies do not qualify. In practice, these criteria are not always interpreted strictly. Guerrillas, for example, do not necessarily wear an issued uniform nor carry arms openly, yet captured combatants of this type have sometimes been granted POW status. The criteria are generally applicable to international armed conflicts. In civil wars, insurgents are often treated as traitors or criminals by government forces, and are sometimes executed. However, in the American Civil War, both sides treated captured troops as POWs, presumably out of reciprocity, though the Union regarded Confederacy personnel as separatist rebels. However, guerrillas and other irregular combatants generally cannot expect to simultaneously benefit from both civilian and military status.


[edit] The United States Military Code of Conduct
The United States Military Code of Conduct, Articles III through V, are guidelines for United States service members who have been taken prisoner. They were created in response to the breakdown of leadership which can happen in a typical environment such as a POW situation, specifically when US forces were POWs during the Korean War. When a person is taken prisoner, the Code of Conduct reminds the service member that the chain of command is still in effect (the highest ranking service member, regardless of armed service branch, is in command), and that the service member cannot receive special favors or parole from their captors, lest this undermine the service member's chain of command.
Since the Vietnam War the official U.S. military term for enemy POWs is EPW (Enemy Prisoner of War). This name change was introduced in order to distinguish between enemy and U.S. captives. [4], [5]


[edit] World War I

American prisoners of war in Germany in 1917.During World War I about 8 million men surrendered and were held in POW camps until the war ended. All nations pledged to follow the Hague rules on fair treatment of prisoners of war, and in general the POWs had a much higher survival rate than their peers who were not captured.[6] Individual surrenders were uncommon; usually a large unit surrendered all its men. At Tannenberg 92,000 Russians surrendered during the battle. When the besieged garrison of Kaunas surrendered in 1915, 20,000 Russians became prisoners. Over half the Russian losses were prisoners (as a proportion of those captured, wounded or killed); for Austria 32%, for Italy 26%, for France 12%, for Germany 9%; for Britain 7%. Prisoners from the Allied armies totaled about 1.4 million (not including Russia, which lost between 2.5 and 3.5 million men as prisoners.) From the Central Powers about 3.3 million men became prisoners.[7]


German soldiers captured by the British in FlandersGermany held 2.5 million prisoners; Russia held 2.9 million, and Britain and France held about 720,000, mostly gained in the period just before the Armistice in 1918. The US held 48,000. The most dangerous moment was the act of surrender, when helpless soldiers were sometimes shot down. Once prisoners reached a POW camp conditions were better (and often much better than in World War II), thanks in part to the efforts of the International Red Cross and inspections by neutral nations. There was however much harsh treatment of POWs in Germany, as recorded by the American ambassador to Germany (prior to America's entry into the war), James W. Gerard, who published his findings in "My Four Years in Germany". Even worse conditions are reported in the book "Escape of a Princess Pat" by the Canadian George Pearson. It was particularly bad in Russia, where starvation was common for prisoners and civilians alike; about 40% of the prisoners in Russia died or remained missing.[8] Nearly 375,000 of the 500,000 Austro-Hungarian prisoners of war taken by Russians have perished in Siberia from smallpox and typhus.[9] In Germany food was short but only 5% died. [10]

The Ottoman Empire often treated prisoners of war poorly. Some 11,800 British soldiers, most of them Indians, became prisoners after the five-month Siege of Kut, in Mesopotamia, in April 1916. Many were weak and starved when they surrendered and 4,250 died in captivity.[11]

The most curious case came in Russia where the Czechoslovak Legion of Czechoslovak prisoners (from the Austro-Hungarian army), were released in 1917, armed themselves, and briefly became a military and diplomatic force during the Russian Civil War.


[edit] Release of prisoners
At the end of the war in 1918 there were believed to be 140,000 British prisoners of war in Germany, including 3,000 internees held in neutral Switzerland. The first British prisoners were released and reached Calais on 15 November. Plans were made for them to be sent via Dunkirk to Dover and a large reception camp was established at Dover capable of housing 40,000 men, which could later be used for demobilisation.

On 13 December 1918 the armistice was extended and the Allies reported that by 9 December 264,000 prisoners had been repatriated. A very large number of these has been released en masse and sent across Allied lines without any food or shelter. This had created difficulties for the receiving Allies and many released prisoners had died from exhaustion. The released POWs were met by cavalry troops and sent back through the lines in lorries to reception centres where they were refitted with boots and clothing and dispatched to the ports in trains. Upon arrival at the receiving camp the POWs were registered and "boarded" before being dispatched to their own homes. All commissioned officers had to write a report on the circumstances of their capture and to ensure that they had done all they could to avoid capture. Each returning officer and man was given a message from King George V, written in his own hand and reproduced on a lithograph. It read as follows:[12]

The Queen joins me in welcoming you on your release from the miseries & hardships, which you have endured with so much patience and courage.

During these many months of trial, the early rescue of our gallant Officers & Men from the cruelties of their captivity has been uppermost in our thoughts.

We are thankful that this longed for day has arrived, & that back in the old Country you will be able once more to enjoy the happiness of a home & to see good days among those who anxiously look for your return. George R.I.


[edit] World War II

[edit] Treatment of POWs by the Axis

New Guinea, 1943. An Australian POW about to be beheaded.
Russian German-caught POWsThe death toll among POWs in general is estimated at between 6 and 10 million.[13] Germany and Italy generally treated prisoners from the British Commonwealth, France, the U.S. and other Western allies in accordance with the Geneva Convention (1929), which had been signed by these countries.[14]. It is noteworthy that this also applied to Jewish POWs wearing the British Army's uniform, who were treated on an equal footing with other British soldiers and excluded from application of the murderous Final Solution policies effected against virtually all other Jews who fell into Nazi hands. (For example, Major Yitzhak Ben-Aharon - later a prominent Israeli trade unionist and politician - was captured by the Germans at Greece in 1941 and underwent four years of captivity under fairly tolerable conditions).

Nazi Germany did not apply the same standard of treatment to non-Western prisoners, such as the Soviets, who suffered harsh conditions and died in large numbers while in captivity. The Empire of Japan also did not treat prisoners of war in accordance with the Geneva Convention. Moreover, according to a directive ratified on 5 August 1937 by Hirohito, the constraints of Hague Conventions (1899 and 1907) were explicitly removed on Chinese prisoners.[15]

In German camps, when soldiers of lower rank were made to work, they were compensated, and officers (e.g. in Colditz Castle) were not required to work. The main complaints of British, British Commonwealth, U.S., and French prisoners of war in German Army POW camps-especially during the last two years of the war-concerned the bare bones menu provided, a fate German soldiers and civilians were also suffering due to the blockade conditions. Fortunately for the prisoners, food packages provided by the International Red Cross supplemented the food rations, until the last few months when allied air raids prevented shipments from arriving. The other main complaint was the harsh treatment during forced marches in the last months, resulting from German attempts to keep prisoners away from the advancing allied forces.

In contrast, Germany treated the Soviet Red Army troops that had been taken prisoner with neglect and deliberate, organized brutality. The first eight months of the German campaign on their Eastern Front were by far the worst phase, with up to 2.4 of 3.1 million POWs dying. Soviet POWs were held under conditions that resulted in deaths of hundreds of thousands from starvation and disease. Most prisoners were also subjected to forced labour under conditions that resulted in further deaths. An official justification used by the Germans for this policy was that the Soviet Union had not signed the Geneva Convention. This was not legally justifiable, however, as under article 82 of the Geneva Convention (1929), signatory countries had to give POWs of all signatory and non-signatory countries the rights assigned by the convention.[16] Beevor indicates that about one month after the German invasion in 1941 an offer was made by the USSR for a reciprocal adherence to the Hague conventions. This 'note' was left unanswered by Third Reich officials[17]. In contrast, Tolstoy discusses that the German Government as well as the International Red Cross made several efforts to regulate reciprocal treatment of prisoners until early 1942, but received no answers by the Soviet side.[18] Further, the Soviets took a harsh position towards captured Soviet soldiers as they expected each soldier to fight to the death and automatically excluded any prisoner from the “Russian community”.[19]


Australian and Dutch POWs at Tarsau, Thailand in 1943According to some sources, between 1941 and 1945, the Axis powers took about 5.7 million Soviet prisoners. About 1 million of them were released during the war, in that their status changed but they remained under German authority. A little over 500,000 either escaped or were liberated by the Red Army. Some 930,000 more were found alive in camps after the war. The remaining 3.3 million prisoners (57.5% of the total captured) died during their captivity.[20] According to Russian military historian General G. Krivoshhev, 4.6 million Soviet prisoners were taken by the Axis powers, of which 1.8 million were found alive in camps after the war and 318,770 were released by the Axis during the war and were then drafted into the Soviet armed forces again.[21]. In comparison, 8,348 Western Allied (British, American and Canadian) prisoners died in German camps in 1939-45 (3.5% of the 232,000 total).

On 11 February 1945, at the conclusion of the Yalta Conference, the United States and the United Kingdom signed a Repatriation Agreement with the USSR.[22] The interpretation of this Agreement resulted in the forcible repatriation of all Russians (Operation Keelhaul) regardless of their wishes. The forced repatriation operations took place in 1945-1947.[23] Many Soviet POWs and forced laborers transported to Nazi Germany were on their return to the USSR treated as traitors and sent to the gulag. The remainder were barred from all but the most menial jobs.

During Second Sino-Japanese War and the Pacific War, the Empire of Japan which had never signed the Third Geneva Convention of 1929, violated international agreements, including provisions of the Hague Conventions (1899 and 1907), which protect prisoners of war (POWs).

Prisoners of war from China, the United States, Australia, Britain, Canada, India, the Netherlands, New Zealand and the Philippines held by the Japanese armed forces were subject to murder, beatings, summary punishment, brutal treatment, forced labor, medical experimentation, starvation rations and poor medical treatment. No access to the POWs was provided to the International Red Cross. Escapes were almost impossible because of the difficulty of men of European descent hiding in Asiatic societies.[24]

According to the findings of the Tokyo tribunal, the death rate of Western prisoners was 27.1% (American POWs died at a rate of 37%),[25] seven times that of POWs under the Germans and Italians.[26] The death rate of Chinese was much larger. Thus, while 37,583 prisoners from the UK, 28,500 from Netherlands and 14,473 from USA were released after the surrender of Japan, the number for the Chinese was only 56.[27]


[edit] Treatment of POWs by the Allies
See also: List of World War II POW camps, Gulag , and Allied war crimes during World War II

German soldiers taken POW by the Polish Independent Highland Brigade during the Battle of Narvik of 1940As a result of the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939, hundreds of thousands of Polish soldiers became prisoners of war in the Soviet Union. Thousands of them were executed; over 20,000 Polish military personnel and civilians perished in the Katyn massacre.[28] Out of Anders' 80,000 evacuees from Soviet Union gathered in Great Britain only 310 volunteered to return to Poland in 1947.[29]

According to some sources, the Soviets captured 3.5 million Axis servicemen (excluding Japanese) of which more than a million died.[30] According to G. Krivosheev, the Soviets captured in total 4,126,964 Axis servicemen, of which 580,548 died in captivity. Of 2,389,560 German servicemen 450,600 died in captivity.[21] One specific example of the tragic fate of the German POWs was after the Battle of Stalingrad, during which the Soviets captured 91,000 German troops, many already starved and ill, of whom only 5,000 survived the war. The last German POWs (those who were sentenced for war crimes, sometimes without sufficient reasons) were released by the Soviets in 1955, only after Joseph Stalin had died.[31] At least 54,000 Italian POWs died in Russia, with a mortality rate of 84.5%. See also POW labor in the Soviet Union, Japanese prisoners of war in the Soviet Union, Italian prisoners of war in the Soviet Union, Romanian POW in the Soviet Union.


German POW at StalingradDuring the war the Armies of Allied nations such as the U.S., UK, Australia and Canada[32] were ordered to treat Axis prisoners strictly in accordance with the Geneva Convention (1929).[33] Some breaches of the Convention took place, however.

According to Stephen E. Ambrose, of the roughly 1,000 U.S. combat veterans that he had interviewed, roughly 1/3 told him they had seen U.S. troops kill German prisoners.[34]

Although some Japanese were taken prisoner, most fought until they were killed or committed suicide. Of the 22,000 Japanese soldiers present at the beginning of the Battle of Iwo Jima, over 20,000 were killed and only 1,083 taken prisoner.[35] Of the 30,000 Japanese troops that defended Saipan, less than 1,000 remained alive at battle's end.[36]

Japanese prisoners sent to camps in the U.S. fared well but many Japanese were killed when trying to surrender or were massacred just after they had surrendered. (see Allied war crimes during World War II in the Pacific). Some Japanese prisoners in POW camps died at their own hands, either directly or by attacking guards with the intention of forcing the guards to kill them.

Towards the end of the war in Europe, as large numbers of Axis soldiers surrendered, the U.S. created the designation of Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF) so as not to treat prisoners as POWs. A lot of these soldiers were kept in open fields in various Rheinwiesenlagers. Controversy has arisen about how Eisenhower managed these prisoners [6] (see Other Losses). Many died when forced to clear minefields in Norway, France etc. How many died during the several post-war years that they were used for forced labor in France, the Soviet Union, etc, is disputed.


[edit] Post World War II

North Korean POWs being guarded by a U.S. Marine during the Korean War
American POW being questioned by his Vietnamese captors.The North Koreans severely mistreated prisoners of war (see Crimes against POWs)

The North Vietnamese captured many U.S. service members as prisoners of war during the Vietnam War, who suffered from systematic mistreatment and torture during much of the war.

Regardless of regulations determining treatment to prisoners, violation of their rights continue to be reported. Many cases of POW massacres have been reported in recent times, including October 13 massacre in Lebanon by Syrian forces and June 1990 massacre in Sri Lanka.

During the 1990s Yugoslav Wars, Serb forces committed many POW massacres, including: Vukovar, Škarbrnja and Srebrenica.

During the gulf war in 1991 American, British, Italian and Kuwaiti POW ( mostly downed aircrew and special forces ) were severely tortured by the Iraqi secret police. An American military doctor, Major Rhonda Cornum, a 37-year-old flight surgeon, captured when her Blackhawk UH60 was shot down was also subjected to sexual abuse.

During the 1999 Kosovo War, Serb forces beat and tortured 3 US POWs.[37]

In 2001, there were reports that India had actually taken two prisoners during the Sino-Indian War, Yang Chen and Shih Liang. The two were imprisoned as spies for three years before being interned in a mental asylum in Ranchi, where they spent the next 38 years under a special prisoner status.[38]

The last prisoners of Iran–Iraq War (1980-1988) were exchanged in 2003.[39]

About six months after the 2003 invasion of Iraq by the U.S Army incidents of Iraq prison abuse scandals started to occur. The best known abuse incidents occurred at the large Abu Ghraib prison.


[edit] Numbers of POWs
This is a list of nations with the highest number of POWs since the start of World War II, listed in descending order. These are also the highest numbers in any war since the Geneva Convention, Relative to the treatment of prisoners of war (1929) entered into force 19 June, 1931. The USSR had not signed the Geneva convention.[40]

Prisoner nationality Number Name of conflict
Soviet Union 4 - 5.7 million taken by Germany (2.7 - 3.3 million died in German POW camps) [41] (ref. Streit) World War II (Total)
Nazi Germany 3,127,380 taken by U.S.S.R. (474,967 died in captivity) [41]
3,630,000 taken by Great Britain
3,100,000 taken by the United States
937,000 taken by France
unknown number in Yugoslavia, Poland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark
1,3 million unknown[42]
World War II
France 1,800,000 taken by Germany Battle of France in World War II
Poland 675,000 (420,000 by Germans, 240,000 by Soviets in 1939; 15,000 Warsaw 1944) World War II
United Kingdom ~200,000 (135,000 taken in Europe, does not include Pacific or Commonwealth figures) World War II
United States ~130,000 (95,532 taken by Germany) World War II
Pakistan 90,368 taken by India. Later released by Indian authorities in accordance with the Simla Agreement. Indo-Pakistani War of 1971


[edit] See also
Rule of Law in Armed Conflicts Project (RULAC)
KIA – Killed In Action
MIA – Missing In Action
WIA – Wounded in action
List of notable prisoners of war
American Revolution prisoners of war
British prison ships (New York)
Combatant
Disarmed Enemy Forces
Geneva Convention
Illegal combatant
Laws of war
Postal censorship
Prisoner-of-war camp
Prison escape
The United States Military Code of Conduct
War crime
Civilian Internee
Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–1924)
Soviet POWs in German captivity
Polish prisoners of war in the Soviet Union (after 1939)
13th Psychological Operations Battalion (Enemy Prisoner of War)
Movies

1971
Andersonville
Blood Oath
The Bridge on the River Kwai
The Brylcreem Boys
Danger Within
The Deerhunter
Empire of the Sun
Escape to Athena
Faith of My Fathers
Grand Illusion
The Great Escape
The Great Raid
The McKenzie Break
Hart's War
Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence
Missing in Action
The One That Got Away
Prisoner of War (there are several films of this title available here)
Rambo: First Blood Part II
Rescue Dawn
Stalag 17
Summer of My German Soldier
Tea with Mussolini
To End All Wars
Uncommon Valor
The Wooden Horse
Songs

Prisoners of War

[edit] References
1.^ "History of Europe, p.362 - by Norman Davies ISBN 0-19-520912-5
2.^ Samurai, Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan, The Journal of Japanese Studies
3.^ Maududi (1967), Introduction of Ad-Dahr, "Period of revelation", p. 159.
4.^ Nigosian, S. A. (2004). Islam. Its History, Teaching, and Practices. Bloomington: Indiana University Press. pp. 115.
5.^ "Prisoner of war", Encyclopedia Britannica
6.^ Geo G. Phillimore and Hugh H. L. Bellot, "Treatment of Prisoners of War", Transactions of the Grotius Society, Vol. 5, (1919), pp. 47-64.
7.^ Niall Ferguson, The Pity of War. (1999) p 368-9 for data.
8.^ Prisoners of War and Communism.
9.^ 375,000 Austrians Have Died in Siberia; Remaining 125,000 War Prisoner... - Article Preview - The New York Times
10.^ Richard B. Speed, III. Prisoners, Diplomats and the Great War: A Study in the Diplomacy of Captivity. (1990); Ferguson, The Pity of War. (1999) ch 13; Desmond Morton, Silent Battle: Canadian Prisoners of War in Germany, 1914-1919. 1992.
11.^ British National Archives, "The Mesopotamia campaign", at [1];
12.^ The Queen and technology
13.^ International Research Project on Jewish Soldiers and Prisoners of War during World War II
14.^ International Humanitarian Law - State Parties / Signatories
15.^ Akira Fujiwara, Nitchû Sensô ni Okeru Horyo Gyakusatsu, Kikan Sensô Sekinin Kenkyû 9, 1995, p.22
16.^ "Part VIII : Execution of the convention #Section I : General provisions". International Humanitarian Law - Geneva Convention Prisoners of War 1929 (http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebART/305-430083?OpenDocument). Retrieved on 2007-11-29. .
17.^ Beevor, Stalingrad . Penguin 2001 ISBN 0141001313 p60
18.^ Nikolai Tolstoy. The Secret Betrayal. Charles Scribner’s Sons (1977) , ISNB 0-684-15635-0. p. 33.
19.^ Gerald Reitlinger. The House Built on Sand.. Weidenfeld and Nicholson, London (1960) ASIN: B0000CKNUO. p. 90,100-1.
20.^ Soviet Prisoners of War: Forgotten Nazi Victims of World War II
21.^ a b Report at the session of the Russian association of WWII historians in 1998
22.^ Repatriation -- The Dark Side of World War II
23.^ Forced Repatriation to the Soviet Union: The Secret Betrayal
24.^ Prisoners of the Japanese : Pows of World War II in the Pacific - by Gavin Dawes, ISBN 0-688-14370-9
25.^ "Japanese Atrocities in the Philippines". American Experience | Bataan Rescue | People & Events (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bataan/peopleevents/e_atrocities.html).
26.^ Yuki Tanaka, Hidden Horrors, 1996, p.2,3.
27.^ Tanaka, ibid., Herbert Bix, Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan, 2001, p.360
28.^ Fischer, Benjamin B., "The Katyn Controversy: Stalin's Killing Field", Studies in Intelligence, Winter 1999-2000.
29.^ Michael Hope - "Polish deportees in the Soviet Union".
30.^ German POWs and the Art of Survival
31.^ German POWs in Allied Hands - World War II
32.^ Tremblay, Robert, Bibliothèque et Archives Canada, et all. "Histoires oubliées – Interprogrammes : Des prisonniers spéciaux" Interlude. Aired: 20 July 2008, 14h47 to 15h00.
Rogers Cable Inc. Ottawa, Ontario. Channel 12, TFO,[2][3] Accessed: 20 July 2008, approx. 14h45 to 15h00. [edit] Note: See also Saint Helen's Island.
33.^ Dear, I.C.B and Foot, M.R.D. (editors) (2005). "War Crimes". The Oxford Companion to World War II. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. pp.983–984. ISBN 9780192806703.
34.^ James J. Weingartner, "Americans, Germans, and War Crimes: Converging Narratives from "the Good War" the Journal of American History, Vol. 94, No. 4. March 2008
35.^ Morison, Samuel Eliot (2002) [1960]. Victory in the Pacific, 1945. Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press. ISBN 0252070658. OCLC 49784806.
36.^ Battle of Saipan, historynet.com
37.^ "THREE U.S. P.O.W.S CAPTURED BY SERBS", Frontline.
38.^ Shaikh Azizur Rahman, "Two Chinese prisoners from '62 war repatriated", The Washington Times.
39.^ "THREATS AND RESPONSES: BRIEFLY NOTED; IRAN-IRAQ PRISONER DEAL", by Nazila Fathi, New York Times, March 14, 2003
40.^ Clark, Alan Barbarossa: The Russian-German Conflict 1941-1945 page 206, ISBN 0-304-35864-9
41.^ a b "Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century", Greenhill Books, London, 1997, G. F. Krivosheev, editor
42.^ Kriegsgefangene: Viele kamen nicht zurück - Politik - stern.de
Notes
Rule of Law in Armed Conflicts Project (RULAC)
John Hickman, "What is a Prisoner of War For?" Scientia Militaria: South African Journal of Military Studies. Vol. 36, No. 2. 20008. Pp. 19–35.
Full text of Third Geneva Convention, 1949 revision
"Prisoner of War" (CD Edition ed.). 2002.
Gendercide site
"Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century", Greenhill Books, London, 1997, G. F. Krivosheev, editor.
"Keine Kameraden. Die Wehrmacht und die sowjetischen Kriegsgefangenen 1941-1945", Dietz, Bonn 1997, ISBN 3-8012-5023-7

[edit] Further reading
Roger DEVAUX : Treize Qu'ils Etaient - Life of the french prisoners of war at the peasants of low Bavaria (1939-1945) - Treize Qu'ils Etaient - Mémoires et Cultures - 2007 - ISBN 2-916062-51-3
Pierre Gascar, Histoire de la captivité des Français en Allemagne (1939-1945), Éditions Gallimard, France, 1967.
McGowran OBE, Tom, Beyond the Bamboo Screen: Scottish Prisoners of War under the Japanese. 1999. Cualann Press Ltd
Bob Moore,& Kent Fedorowich eds., Prisoners of War and their Captors in World War II, Berg Press, Oxford, UK, 1997.
David Rolf, Prisoners of the Reich, Germany's Captives, 1939-1945, 1998.
Richard D. Wiggers "The United States and the Denial of Prisoner of War (POW) Status at the End of the Second World War", Militargeschichtliche Mitteilungen 52 (1993) pp. 91–94.
Winton, Andrew, Open Road to Faraway: Escapes from Nazi POW Camps 1941-1945. 2001. Cualann Press Ltd.
The stories of several American fighter pilots, shot down over North Vietnam are the focus of American Film Foundation's 1999 documentary Return with Honor, presented by Tom Hanks.
Lewis H. Carlson, WE WERE EACH OTHER'S PRISONERS: An oral history of World War II American and German Prisoners Of War, 1st Edition.; 1997, BasicBooks (HarperCollins, Inc).ISBN 0-465-09120-2.
Arnold Krammer, NAZI PRISONERS OF WAR IN AMERICA; 1979 Stein & Day; 1991, 1996 Scarborough House. ISBN 0-8128-8561-9.
Alfred James Passfield, The Escape Artist; An WW2 Australian prisoner's chronicle of life in German POW camps and his eight escape attempts, 1984 Artlook Books Western Australia. ISBN 0 86445 047 8.
Rivett, Rohan D. (1946). Behind Bamboo. Sydney: Angus & Robertson. Republished by Penguin, 1992; ISBN 0-140-14925-2.
George G. Lewis and John Mewha , History of prisoner of war utilization by the United States Army, 1776-1945; Dept. of the Army, 1955.
Vetter, Hal, Mutine at Koje Island; Charles Tuttle Company, Vermont, 1965.
Jin, Ha, War Trash: A novel; Pantheon, 2004. ISBN 978-0375422768

[edit] External links
Wikimedia Commons has media related to: Prisoners of war

The National Archives ADM 103 Prisoners of War 1755-1831
The National Archives 'Your Archives'
The National Archives 'Your Archives' - ADM 103 Prisoners of War 1755-1831
Archive of WWII memories, gathered by BBC
POWs of WWII and their experiences
Bill/William Troughton's memories of being a POW in Rangoon, 1942-1945
Soviet Prisoners of War: Forgotten Nazi Victims of World War II
German POWs and the art of survival
Current status of Vietnam War POW/MIA
Australian POW FX Larkin NX43393 AIF. Detailed web site and rich resources.
CBC Digital Archives - Canada's Forgotten PoW Camps
German army list of Stalags
German army list of Oflags
Changi A.I.F. Ski Club
Colditz Oflag IVC POW Camp
Lamsdorf Reunited
Website (official) on New Zealand PoWs
New Zealand Official History, New Zealand PoWs of Germany, Italy & Japan
Essays on New Zealand PoWs of Germany, Italy & Japan
Essay on Escapes of New Zealand PoWs
Stoker Harold Siddall Royal Navy, captured on Crete 1941, and his life in Stalag VIIA
Notes of Japanese soldier in a USSR prison camp after WWII
China's burial of U.S. Korean War POW comes to light
Location of POW-camps in the Soviet Union
[hide]v • d • eParticular human rights

Civil and political Freedom from discrimination · Right to life · Right to die · Security of person · Liberty · Freedom of movement · Freedom from slavery · Personhood · Right to bear arms · Equality before the law · Adequate remedy · Freedom from arbitrary arrest and detention · Freedom from torture · Freedom from cruel and unusual punishment · Right to a fair trial · Presumption of innocence · Right of asylum · Nationality · Freedom from exile · Privacy · Freedom of thought and conscience · Freedom of religion · Freedom of expression (freedom of information) · Freedom of assembly · Freedom of association · Right to protest · Universal suffrage · Marriage · Family life

Economic, social
and cultural Labor rights · Fair remuneration · Equal pay for equal work · Trade union membership · Right to social security · Leisure and rest · Right to work · Right to property (and intellectual) · Right to culture · Right to public participation · Right to education · Right to adequate standard of living · Right to housing · Right to development · Right to health · Right to healthcare · Right to water · Right to food · Right of return

Reproductive Family planning · Reproductive health · Abortion · Genital integrity · Freedom from involuntary female genital cutting

War and conflict Civilian · Combatant · Freedom from genocide · Prisoner of war

Note: What is considered a human right is controversial and not all the topics listed are universally accepted as human rights.


Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_of_war"
Categories: Imprisonment and detention | Prisoners of warViews
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Privacy policy About Wikipedia Disclaimers

kwame k
05-05-2009, 04:40 PM
You copied the fucking whole Wiki, everything.......Wow, Thanks.

So is your point that since we have a long and illustrious past of torturing, that it's OK to torture?
If that's the case we should go back to subjugating women, discriminating/slavery for the minorities, forcing children to work, and a myriad of other things that we used to do but now realize are wrong.

LoungeMachine
05-05-2009, 04:45 PM
You copied the fucking whole Wiki, everything.......Wow, Thanks.

So is your point that since we have a long and illustrious past of torturing, that it's OK to torture?
If that's the case we should go back to subjugating women, discriminating/slavery for the minorities, forcing children to work, and a myriad of other things that we used to do but now realize are wrong.

Don't give this neanderthal any ideas.

Notice how he wants us to "leave Bush alone"

Whatever happened to the RePuke's love for THE RULE OF LAW???

IF US Laws were broken, those who ordered the breaking should be held accountable. THAT'S what you do in a free society.

:gulp:

MUSICMANN
05-05-2009, 05:06 PM
Don't give this neanderthal any ideas.

Notice how he wants us to "leave Bush alone"

Whatever happened to the RePuke's love for THE RULE OF LAW???

IF US Laws were broken, those who ordered the breaking should be held accountable. THAT'S what you do in a free society.

:gulp:



This is were i guess you guys tend to not read what is laid out before you. In the past we did things that were wrong and way more horrible than what the CIA have done to those that under the Geneva ACT, is not considered a POW.These type of things have happened and will continue to happen no matter how much you cry about it. It is the way this world turns.

I also could care less about your hatred for Bush. I was pointing out that all this hoopla over some harsher techniques to get information that may or may not be valuable to this country's safety is a waste of time and tax payers dollars.

No matter how many ways you want to explain and defend a terroist, they still are terroists and do not fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention.

kwame k
05-05-2009, 05:06 PM
Don't give this neanderthal any ideas.

Notice how he wants us to "leave Bush alone"

Whatever happened to the RePuke's love for THE RULE OF LAW???

IF US Laws were broken, those who ordered the breaking should be held accountable. THAT'S what you do in a free society.

:gulp:

Exactly, the same standard holds for all in our government, from the President's swearing to uphold and defend the Constitution right down to your Local Officials. We are a nation of laws and rights, that's what this little experiment in Democracy is supposed to be all about.

kwame k
05-05-2009, 05:12 PM
This is were i guess you guys tend to not read what is laid out before you. In the past we did things that were wrong and way more horrible than what the CIA have done to those that under the Geneva ACT, is not considered a POW.These type of things have happened and will continue to happen no matter how much you cry about it. It is the way this world turns.

I also could care less about your hatred for Bush. I was pointing out that all this hoopla over some harsher techniques to get information that may or may not be valuable to this country's safety is a waste of time and tax payers dollars.

No matter how many ways you want to explain and defend a terroist, they still are terroists and do not fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention.


Don't get started on the Enemy Combatant rules Bush's people put in place to circumvent our agreement with The Geneva Convention.

He fucking named it a War On Terra...........then fight it that way. You can't have one and not the other. You send our troops over to fight, it's a war plain and simple. I don't give a fuck how we war on the battlefield, this is about captured prisoners.

MUSICMANN
05-05-2009, 05:15 PM
Exactly, the same standard holds for all in our government, from the President's swearing to uphold and defend the Constitution right down to your Local Officials. We are a nation of laws and rights, that's what this little experiment in Democracy is supposed to be all about.

And every US President that took the oath in a time of war has done what he thought was best for the country and somewhere down the chain of command a killing of a pow or pow's has happened with him knowing. Didn't make it right, just as it didn't make a call for charges to be brought up against him either like what we have going on today.

MUSICMANN
05-05-2009, 05:18 PM
Don't get started on the Enemy Combatant rules Bush's people put in place to circumvent our agreement with The Geneva Convention.

He fucking named it a War On Terra...........then fight it that way. You can't have one and not the other. You send our troops over to fight, it's a war plain and simple. I don't give a fuck how we war on the battlefield, this is about captured prisoners.



No it's not the same. Were not fighting against an army from another country, read the fucking the Geneva again. We are fighting a band of lawless terroist that follow no code of conduct and wear no uniform for any country.

Your blind hatred for one man has dillusioned rational thought across this country. Pretty fucking pathetic.

kwame k
05-05-2009, 05:44 PM
No it's not the same. Were not fighting against an army from another country, read the fucking the Geneva again. We are fighting a band of lawless terroist that follow no code of conduct and wear no uniform for any country.

Your blind hatred for one man has dillusioned rational thought across this country. Pretty fucking pathetic.


Blind hatred has nothing to do with realizing the past administration tore our Constitution to shreds.


President Bush's unilateral designation of Abdullah al-Mujahir as an "enemy combatant" creates a dangerous loophole that threatens basic criminal justice guarantees, Human Rights Watch said today.

The president is claiming unfettered power to circumvent the justice system and its safeguards of basic rights," said Kenneth Roth, Executive Director of Human Rights Watch. "There should be a strong presumption that anyone arrested in the United States, far from any battlefield, be granted the full legal protections of the criminal justice system-including the right to counsel and not to be held without charges. Simply accusing someone of working with al-Qaeda does not justify throwing him into a navy brig." Link (http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2002/06/11/us-circumvents-courts-enemy-combatant-tag)



We invaded two countries with our military and engaged in combat with the people of those countries. Just because they can't afford fancy uniforms does not change that.

When we catch people inside the US and in other countries, we should put them on trial and afford them the basic Human Rights we do with other criminals. You're, because they are terrorist theory falls flat when it is a fact that a high percentage of supposed Detainees had nothing to do with terrorism at all. Yet, we could hold those people indefinitely and torture them?

Also, most experts agree torture does not work and you get false information as a result of torture.

Nickdfresh
05-05-2009, 05:51 PM
For all that keep thinking that under the Bush Adminstration, ...

Um, could you please cut down whatever you post to just the relevant parts that support your points?

Scrolling through all of this shit is not only annoying for the reader, but also pretty much akin to spamming...

Thanks in advance, asshole. :)

Nickdfresh
05-05-2009, 05:56 PM
This is were i guess you guys tend to not read what is laid out before you.

Go figure. You mean when you spam with a lot of useless, irrelvant bullshit without providing a link, no one reads it? Really!?


In the past we did things that were wrong and way more horrible than what the CIA have done to those that under the Geneva ACT, is not considered a POW.These type of things have happened and will continue to happen no matter how much you cry about it. It is the way this world turns.

Please provide a specific example of this...


I also could care less about your hatred for Bush. I was pointing out that all this hoopla over some harsher techniques to get information that may or may not be valuable to this country's safety is a waste of time and tax payers dollars.

No matter how many ways you want to explain and defend a terroist, they still are terroists and do not fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention.

You're a retard. :)

MUSICMANN
05-05-2009, 07:46 PM
Go figure. You mean when you spam with a lot of useless, irrelvant bullshit without providing a link, no one reads it? Really!?



Please provide a specific example of this...



You're a retard. :)



Once again everything is right in front of you in plain black and white english. If you're to lazy to read that's your problem. Or maybe it's just that you have a comprehension problem and just can't understand. Either way i don't give a rats fuck about you or your opinion.

FORD
05-05-2009, 08:17 PM
No it's not the same. Were not fighting against an army from another country, read the fucking the Geneva again. We are fighting a band of lawless terroist that follow no code of conduct and wear no uniform for any country.

Your blind hatred for one man has dillusioned rational thought across this country. Pretty fucking pathetic.

Afghanistan isn't a country? Iraq isn't a country?

That argument is pure BCE BULLSHIT.

Funny how the BCE had no problem with the Taliban when they were signing pipeline deals with UNOCAL in Texas in 1997. But then, they failed to deliver and build the damn thing. Not to mention that the Taliban, being religious fundie wackos, wiped out the BCE's opium crop.... which NOT coincidentally is now doing better than ever under the regime of UNOCAL's Hamid Karzai.

As for Iraq.... the complete horseshitness of that invasion has been well established, and I don't even need to go there.

swage33
05-05-2009, 08:32 PM
You're right, this is a clear offense to the mentally challenged...

Nick's list of subhumans:

Americans who work with their hands
American Veterans
Americans from Appalachia
American Mongoloid Children

If you fall into the list above you are fair game and it is OK to ridicule you according to NickDFresh. However, if you happen to be an Arab terrorist, Nick will post ad naseum in your defense.

swage33
05-05-2009, 08:35 PM
Afghanistan isn't a country? Iraq isn't a country?

That argument is pure BCE BULLSHIT.

Funny how the BCE had no problem with the Taliban when they were signing pipeline deals with UNOCAL in Texas in 1997. But then, they failed to deliver and build the damn thing. Not to mention that the Taliban, being religious fundie wackos, wiped out the BCE's opium crop.... which NOT coincidentally is now doing better than ever under the regime of UNOCAL's Hamid Karzai.

As for Iraq.... the complete horseshitness of that invasion has been well established, and I don't even need to go there.

Hey Dumbass! Afghanistan and Iraq ARE countries. Get your facts straight, will ya?:biggrin:

LoungeMachine
05-05-2009, 08:42 PM
Either way i don't give a rats fuck about you or your opinion.

Right.

That's why you keep arguing your [lame] talking points.....

Because you don't care. :lmao:

You crave validation here.

You need to know in your heart of hearts you weren't duped

Sorry, moron.

You got played by BushCO.

:lmao:

LoungeMachine
05-05-2009, 08:45 PM
No matter how many ways you want to explain and defend a terroist,

.







We are fighting a band of lawless terroist

.



Point of order, Mr. Chairman.

Since you spelled it this way in consecutive posts, one cannot assume it was a typo.

What the fuck is a terroist???

Or is it anal-retarded to ask? :lmao:

Nickdfresh
05-05-2009, 09:05 PM
Nick's list of subhumans:

Americans who work with their hands on boys
American Veterans of sister fucking
Americans from Appalachia with no teeth
American Mongoloid Children like me


So?


If you fall into the list above you are fair game and it is OK to ridicule you according to NickDFresh. However, if you happen to be an Arab terrorist, Nick will post ad naseum in your defense.
http://www.momsjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/dsc_0240_sm.jpg

:mad0244:

Nickdfresh
05-05-2009, 09:08 PM
Once again everything is right in front of you in plain black and white english. If you're to lazy to read that's your problem. Or maybe it's just that you have a comprehension problem and just can't understand. Either way i don't give a rats fuck about you or your opinion.

Right in front of me? You could have posted a run-on Wiki page on incest and no one could tell the difference. But, Muzakbitch. But if you post another run-on post of unattributed plagiarism, I am deleting it...

FORD
05-05-2009, 09:08 PM
Hey Dumbass! Afghanistan and Iraq ARE countries. Get your facts straight, will ya?:biggrin:

Do they have rhetorical questions up in them thar hills, Cletus?

Nevermind... that was another one.

swage33
05-05-2009, 10:06 PM
Do they have rhetorical questions up in them thar hills, Cletus?

Nevermind... that was another one.

No.....they don't!