Was it worth it?

[Big Train]

Chrysler documents show the Treasury will forgive the 7.2 billion in financing they recently provided.

Chrysler won't repay federal bailout 'loans' - May. 5, 2009 (http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/05/news/companies/chrysler_loans/?postversion=2009050517)


Now, couldn't we just have let them fail in the first place and save the 7.2 billion that this fun exercise was? Think of the Universal health care, the clean energy, the "shovel ready" projects that could have been funded with this waste.

[sadaist]

Chrysler documents show the Treasury will forgive the 7.2 billion in financing they recently provided.

Chrysler won't repay federal bailout 'loans' - May. 5, 2009 (http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/05/news/companies/chrysler_loans/?postversion=2009050517)


Now, couldn't we just have let them fail in the first place and save the 7.2 billion that this fun exercise was? Think of the Universal health care, the clean energy, the "shovel ready" projects that could have been funded with this waste.


This will barely scratch the news cycle. They're still discussing the fact Obama ordered his burger with Dijon mustard and left a $5 tip.

[FORD]

But it wasn't just a burger, it was a HELL burger. Actually I'm surprised it didn't bring back another round of "Obama is the ANTICHRIST !1!!!!!111!" hysteria.

As for Chrysler, I'm not crazy about the bailout, just like I wasn't crazy about the one Reagan gave them. But to have them go out of business entirely at this point would have been far worse. They certainly could do a lot better as far as adapting to the 21st century, and hopefully they will. But at least they serve a useful purpose.

Which is more than I can say about anyone at Goldman Sachs, AIG, or the health insurance companies that Max Baucus is shilling for. They serve no legitimate purpose at all, and shouldn't get one goddamn thing from any of us.

[LoungeMachine]

Sounds to me like Chrysler now owes every man, woman, and child in America a new car.

:gulp:

[sadaist]

Sounds to me like Chrysler now owes every man, woman, and child in America a new car.

:gulp:


Ugh, but it would still be a Chrysler.

[FORD]

Yeah, I hope FIATChrysler builds better cars than the Iacocca post first bailout Chrysler did.

I've owned two Chrysler products. One was an 81 Dodge Diplomat (ex state patrol car) the other was one of those goddamn K cars. Night and day difference.

The Diplomat ran great until it was well over 200K miles. Not to mention all the shit I got away with in that car, because cops never pulled me over, thinking I was one of their own.

The K car? Total piece of shit. Easy enough to work on, but it had to be, because you would spend a lot of time doing so.

[Seshmeister]

Sounds to me like Chrysler now owes every man, woman, and child in America a new car.

:gulp:

A $20 car.

Can you imagine a $20 Chrysler? :)

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/06/TheHomer.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

A drop in the bucket compared to what we spent to bail out banks/mortgage brokerage houses....

[Seshmeister]

This will barely scratch the news cycle. They're still discussing the fact Obama ordered his burger with Dijon mustard and left a $5 tip.

It's terrible, he should have ordered Freedom mustard...

[Big Train]

But it wasn't just a burger, it was a HELL burger. Actually I'm surprised it didn't bring back another round of "Obama is the ANTICHRIST !1!!!!!111!" hysteria.

As for Chrysler, I'm not crazy about the bailout, just like I wasn't crazy about the one Reagan gave them. But to have them go out of business entirely at this point would have been far worse. They certainly could do a lot better as far as adapting to the 21st century, and hopefully they will. But at least they serve a useful purpose.

Which is more than I can say about anyone at Goldman Sachs, AIG, or the health insurance companies that Max Baucus is shilling for. They serve no legitimate purpose at all, and shouldn't get one goddamn thing from any of us.

That's my point, NONE of these businesses should have been given a bailout. They have other means to handle their needs. If they don't, they go out of business and another company steps in.

American auto companies need to be much smaller to be profitable. Yes, some people will get pushed aside, but at the same time, smaller competitors could (and more than likely) would spring up, given the existing idling supply and labor chains available to do so.

This bailout did nothing but buy a quarter to stall and try different schemes out, but the fundamentals and end result were never in doubt.

Nick, it may be a drop in the bucket, but it's one I would love to have back. AIG at least has a shot of paying us back.

[Guitar Shark]

That's my point, NONE of these businesses should have been given a bailout. They have other means to handle their needs. If they don't, they go out of business and another company steps in.

American auto companies need to be much smaller to be profitable. Yes, some people will get pushed aside, but at the same time, smaller competitors could (and more than likely) would spring up, given the existing idling supply and labor chains available to do so.

This bailout did nothing but buy a quarter to stall and try different schemes out, but the fundamentals and end result were never in doubt.

Nick, it may be a drop in the bucket, but it's one I would love to have back. AIG at least has a shot of paying us back.

It's not that simple. You have to look at what the alternative would have been. To let Chrysler fail would have had enormous implications to our economy - much, much worse than the $7.2 billion that was "lost". The snowball effect would have been devastating.

Keep in mind that it still might happen. Chrysler could fail in its efforts to restructure after bankruptcy. GM is an even bigger concern. If GM fails, we are all screwed.

[LoungeMachine]

A $20 car.

Can you imagine a $20 Chrysler? :)





Imagine?

I've owned one.

And $20 was $5 over blue book.

:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

It's not that simple. .

It's the internets.

Everything is that simple.....

:gulp:

[Blaze]

maybe it is that simple, what if a US Agriculture company that grow plants and raise animals commercially had gotten this big and begin to fail or failed.

you say, oh I would grow my own, but gardens do not grow over night and most of us do not have a place to put a dairy animal. Not to mention providing meat and eggs.

[FORD]

If Monsanto or ADM failed, it would be the best thing possible for the entire planet. No more GMO's, no more High Fructose Corn Poison, and we could legalize hemp and get on with the business of more efficient biofuels, and growing REAL food again.

[Nickdfresh]

Imagine?

I've owned one.

And $20 was $5 over blue book.

:gulp:

The Onion had a "story" on their iPod radionews network about "packaging two day-old Seabrings for $5000." Alternately funny and sad...

[Blaze]

If Monsanto or ADM failed, it would be the best thing possible for the entire planet. No more GMO's, no more High Fructose Corn Poison, and we could legalize hemp and get on with the business of more efficient biofuels, and growing REAL food again.

I miss real food. I hear rumors of it from time to time.

[hideyoursheep]

Hmm...

A 7.2 bil one shot deal that will keep taxpayers employed, hopefully long enough to pay that 7.2 back through future income taxes.

[Big Train]

It's not that simple. You have to look at what the alternative would have been. To let Chrysler fail would have had enormous implications to our economy - much, much worse than the $7.2 billion that was "lost". The snowball effect would have been devastating.

Keep in mind that it still might happen. Chrysler could fail in its efforts to restructure after bankruptcy. GM is an even bigger concern. If GM fails, we are all screwed.

It is that simple because I believe it will fail. All this looking for alternatives is fine, but the fundamentals of their business are still horrible and will take a lot longer than a quarter, or a year, or even five years. The snowball effect you speak of is still coming. While that may be bad for those employees, it is going to happen regardless.

I'd have much rather have seen that 7.2 billion go to helping the workers, retraining or funding a start up company with a clean balance sheet (say one run by the UAW). One that could afford to hire a number of those workers. I think the future of American vehicles is a number of smaller manufacturers who specialize. A rollup similar to GM could happen again in the future, but for right now all those brands need to be run separately and profitably.

This money was purely lost.

[hideyoursheep]

Quit your fuckin crying about money like it was yours to begin with, Big Pussy.

Sit there, watch it fly out the door, stew over it for a few minutes, then get back to work like the rest of the adult world.

[Big Train]

Quit your fuckin crying about money like it was yours to begin with, Big Pussy.

Sit there, watch it fly out the door, stew over it for a few minutes, then get back to work like the rest of the adult world.

This is why you don't have any Sheep. Whatever the government wants to do with it is fine. Take all you want, I don't care. Burden your kids with the bill, who the fuck cares right?

[hideyoursheep]

This is why you don't have any Sheep.

You're clueless. And will remain so. Unless you work for the IRS, it's none of your goddamn business where, how or how much I pay. It's not something I feel I need to share on any message board with some comb-over fuck stick showing a new found obsession with how the govt. recently decided how to spend our money, when you didn't say SHIT about the past 4 years you were a member here.



Whatever the government wants to do with it is fine. How disingenuous of you. Because I didn't start 1/2 a dozen threads a day on the subject doesn't mean I'm not paying attention. Where were you during the first big handout of corporate welfare? I didn't see you whining when Bush did it?!
Not only that, Mr. Financial consultant, you didn't seem to be interested in ANYTHING leading up to this cluster fuck, although I'm sure you knew it was coming. :rolleyes:



Take all you want, I don't care..?

Why should you? If you didn't mind the Treasury being robbed in the name of freedom for the past 8 years, why be upset over rewarding incompetent bankers and CEO's of failing auto companies? Call it an investment in Homeland Security.
You see, if so much wasn't wasted during those times, I doubt we would be having this little conversation, since the US might actually HAVE the money they've been handing out. Do you get the connection now, smartass?




Burden your kids with the bill, who the fuck cares right?
Fucking liar.

This isn't about burdening kids with you, it never has been.

I'd rather watch golf than read your shallow threads. You bore me to sleep.

*yawn*

Goodnight, jackass.

[hankster]

Hmmm, sounds to me like we have another Obama loving asswipe here who loves the fact that he's got something to whine about.
:fufu:

[hideyoursheep]

Looks to me like someone's hiding behind an alias.

C'mon out, Sally!

[Nickdfresh]

It is that simple because I believe it will fail. All this looking for alternatives is fine, but the fundamentals of their business are still horrible and will take a lot longer than a quarter, or a year, or even five years. The snowball effect you speak of is still coming. While that may be bad for those employees, it is going to happen regardless.

I'd have much rather have seen that 7.2 billion go to helping the workers, retraining or funding a start up company with a clean balance sheet (say one run by the UAW). One that could afford to hire a number of those workers. I think the future of American vehicles is a number of smaller manufacturers who specialize. A rollup similar to GM could happen again in the future, but for right now all those brands need to be run separately and profitably.

This money was purely lost.


Um, "smaller manufacturers who specialize?" Really? Actually, consolidation is the wave of the future, and I think the Fiat-Opel-Chrysler deal is a way to get some good Euro cars here as gas prices soar...

Chrysler will actually benefit by getting Euro exposure to the things that they do well: minivans and Jeep Rubicons (Wranglers/CBJs)

[Big Train]

Um, "smaller manufacturers who specialize?" Really? Actually, consolidation is the wave of the future, and I think the Fiat-Opel-Chrysler deal is a way to get some good Euro cars here as gas prices soar...

Chrysler will actually benefit by getting Euro exposure to the things that they do well: minivans and Jeep Rubicons (Wranglers/CBJs)

Yes Nick. As in a separately run Jeep, Hummer, GMC. I'm not saying there will not be auto groups still, but they may be structured differently to face the new reality. It's unlikely for example, Hummer, will sell anywhere near the volume they did in the mid-90's for quite some time. They will be a nice builder, whose balance sheet will likely be better as a spun off company.

Each one having less product lines and overall size. Essentially going back to the way they started. I'll bet it happens with Pontiac in the next five years.

[FORD]

Hummer should have never been considered a civilian vehicle in the first place. Never seen anybody driving one that didn't look like an absolute douchebag that was likely a living embodiment of the "compensation" theory.

[Big Train]

You're clueless. And will remain so. Unless you work for the IRS, it's none of your goddamn business where, how or how much I pay. It's not something I feel I need to share on any message board with some comb-over fuck stick showing a new found obsession with how the govt. recently decided how to spend our money, when you didn't say SHIT about the past 4 years you were a member here.

Wow, for a guy who likes to get personal, it's interesting that it bothers you when it goes the other way.

How disingenuous of you. Because I didn't start 1/2 a dozen threads a day on the subject doesn't mean I'm not paying attention. Where were you during the first big handout of corporate welfare? I didn't see you whining when Bush did it?!

Then you were not paying attention.

Not only that, Mr. Financial consultant, you didn't seem to be interested in ANYTHING leading up to this cluster fuck, although I'm sure you knew it was coming. :rolleyes:

Well, I didn't lose as much as some people, but I did lose quite a bit. I never said I knew what was coming or how bad it was going to be. Nobody knew the extent of it. Nice try though.

Why should you? If you didn't mind the Treasury being robbed in the name of freedom for the past 8 years, why be upset over rewarding incompetent bankers and CEO's of failing auto companies? Call it an investment in Homeland Security.
You see, if so much wasn't wasted during those times, I doubt we would be having this little conversation, since the US might actually HAVE the money they've been handing out. Do you get the connection now, smartass?

Ah yes, the "George Bush" defense. The fact that so much was spent during that time somehow justifies spending ever more insane amounts now. If you don't have any money, the best solution is to spend even more money that you don't have. This is where we disagree.


Fucking liar.

This isn't about burdening kids with you, it never has been.

I'd rather watch golf than read your shallow threads. You bore me to sleep.

So do that and shut the fuck up.

*yawn*

Goodnight, jackass.

Sleep well fag.

[Guitar Shark]

It is that simple because I believe it will fail. All this looking for alternatives is fine, but the fundamentals of their business are still horrible and will take a lot longer than a quarter, or a year, or even five years. The snowball effect you speak of is still coming. While that may be bad for those employees, it is going to happen regardless.

I'd have much rather have seen that 7.2 billion go to helping the workers, retraining or funding a start up company with a clean balance sheet (say one run by the UAW). One that could afford to hire a number of those workers. I think the future of American vehicles is a number of smaller manufacturers who specialize. A rollup similar to GM could happen again in the future, but for right now all those brands need to be run separately and profitably.

This money was purely lost.

That's just stinkin' thinkin'.

I happen to be a bit more optimistic with regard to Chrysler. GM is going to be much more difficult.

[Big Train]

That's just stinkin' thinkin'.

I happen to be a bit more optimistic with regard to Chrysler. GM is going to be much more difficult.

Perhaps, but if the idea is to get to a positive outcome as soon as possible for all, workers and investors alike, it's the best route. If you could show me how the fundamentals of their business could be changed in short order that would justify the amounts being spent to keep it afloat and get it in the right direction, I'd be more inclined to agree.

I'd much rather see a national version of Tesla motors than trying to keep Hummer or Oldsmobile viable nationwide.

[hideyoursheep]

Wow, for a guy who likes to get personal, it's interesting that it bothers you when it goes the other way.You're the one with the inferiority complex....assuming uh, how did you put it? Oh yes; "This is why you don't have any, Sheep" referring to money?

My penis is obviously much bigger than yours, thanks for asking. :lol:

Dork.




Then you were not paying attention.
Yes I was. So were some others.
Link?

Old post?

Feel free to prove me wrong on that one.






Well, I didn't lose as much as some people, but I did lose quite a bit. I never said I knew what was coming or how bad it was going to be. Nobody knew the extent of it. Nice try though. :rolleyes: Everyone lost money. Yet I have a little faith that things will bounce back, just not right away. I don't want failures and thieves in my pocket any more than you do, I just don't obsess over it as you evidently do.

You have more issues than Cosmopolitan, and twice the estrogen.




Ah yes, the "George Bush" defense. The fact that so much was spent during that time somehow justifies spending ever more insane amounts now. If you don't have any money, the best solution is to spend even more money that you don't have. This is where we disagree.. Where did I say it justified spending, dummy?! You can't be that thick-headed, can you? It's not complicated. There's no deficit without spending, and that started loooong before you knew how to spell "Obama". Here's where I refer you to the 2nd paragraph - again.







So do that and shut the fuck up.

:lmao:
You'd blow me if I wanted you to. :tongue0011:



Sleep well fag.

Thanks, cock-pirate.

[hideyoursheep]

It is that simple because I believe it will fail.
:lmao:

That's all the world needed to hear.

[Big Train]

[QUOTE=hideyoursheep;1349225]You're the one with the inferiority complex....assuming uh, how did you put it? Oh yes; "This is why you don't have any, Sheep" referring to money?

My penis is obviously much bigger than yours, thanks for asking. :lol:

Dork.


Oh yes that must be it. I don't know many mutli-millionaires who don't care about their money like you do. You'd rather be "golfing". Please stop bringing your homosexual tendencies into this, we are talking about the economy.

Yes I was. So were some others.
Link?

Old post?

Feel free to prove me wrong on that one.

It's in their somewhere. Feel free to get off your lazy ass sometime and add something to this please (thread about what YOU think is important, a cohesive idea or statement for that matter.


:rolleyes: Everyone lost money. Yet I have a little faith that things will bounce back, just not right away. I don't want failures and thieves in my pocket any more than you do, I just don't obsess over it as you evidently do.

So presenting ideas and articles in this forum, a forum about politics, makes me obsessed? Keep reaching..

You have more issues than Cosmopolitan, and twice the estrogen.

Thanks for the discount analysis, doc.

Where did I say it justified spending, dummy?! You can't be that thick-headed, can you? It's not complicated. There's no deficit without spending, and that started loooong before you knew how to spell "Obama". Here's where I refer you to the 2nd paragraph - again.

Go pick up a brick and hit your head a few more times, see if you can get anything to work in there.

:lmao:
You'd blow me if I wanted you to. :tongue0011:


And your secret motive is finally revealed. You really are a fag.

[Nitro Express]

Chrysler is owned by the Germans. Why should Americans bail out a German company?

[Nickdfresh]

Chrysler is owned by the Germans. Why should Americans bail out a German company?

I think you mean Italians.

[Nitro Express]

The Italians gave Chrysler the $7.2 billion?

[twonabomber]

I'd much rather see a national version of Tesla motors than trying to keep Hummer or Oldsmobile viable nationwide.

why do you keep bringing up Olds? they have been dead for five years.

[Nickdfresh]

The Italians gave Chrysler the $7.2 billion?

Well, Chrysler was owned by German Daimler, but the sold it to an investment group, Cerebus, who in turn turned it over to the UAW, the gov't, and the Fiat group...

And I think the $7+ billion is technically a loan...

That is all...

[twonabomber]

Diamler still has 20% ownership.

[ELVIS]

That's just stinkin' thinkin'.



I agree...

I hope they keep something...


:elvis:

[houseofpain]

I've owned two Chrysler products. One was an 81 Dodge Diplomat (ex state patrol car) the other was one of those goddamn K cars. Night and day difference.

I've owned 2 also. Bought my wife a '97 Plymouth Voyager after our firstr kid. I HATED THE EFFING THING! I worked on that car all the damn time. 5 years later I bought a 2004 Jeep Liberty Renegade new. I absolutely LOVE my Jeep. It is hands down the best car I have ever owned. I have 134k miles on it. I changed the battery at around 72k miles, changed the spark plugs around 100k. New brakes at 105k and I've changed the tires once. I need to change the tires again, but that's pretty hard to justify buying new tires when it gets driven to the airport and parked for 4 days, then gets driven home.

Okay, here's the thing that burns me on the bailout. All of these companies deserve to be put out of business, and I really don't like the idea that Chrysler's board of directors will now have 5 out of its 9 members chosen by the United Auto Workers Union. A Union (which I am completely against all unions, especially the one my wife belongs to) who 99% of their donations, were to the DNC.

So as good as my Jeep is, my next car won't be a Chrysler. Corporate welfare pisses me off more than regular welfare (and I lost a shitload of money with AIG btw). What are you going to do though? Chevy takes the corporate welfare foodstamps too, and Ford Motorcompany (not to be confused with FORD - Fuck Off Ray Daniels) donates money to homosexual causes, which I don't support either. I guess I'll buy German or Japanese. Was leaning towards a Lincoln Navigator though. I guess it will have to be a Toyota Sequyoia.

[Big Train]

why do you keep bringing up Olds? they have been dead for five years.

My bad I meant to say Pontiac. But in a way the whole business is becoming Olds.

[Big Train]

Well, Chrysler was owned by German Daimler, but the sold it to an investment group, Cerebus, who in turn turned it over to the UAW, the gov't, and the Fiat group...

And I think the $7+ billion is technically a loan...

That is all...

It was....until it became a donation in the fine print.

[houseofpain]

and the effing UAW gets 5 of their 9 on the board of directors. And I wanted to go buy a new fucking challenger. Not anymore...