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Nickdfresh
05-19-2009, 08:53 PM
‘Missing link’ likely to stir debate
Scientists announce 47 million-year-old find amid media hoopla
LiveScience
updated 8:06 p.m. ET, Tues., May 19, 2009

A discovery of a 47 million-year-old fossil primate that is said to be a human ancestor was announced and unveiled Tuesday at a press conference in New York City.

Known as "Ida," the nearly complete transitional fossil is 20 times older than most fossils that provide evidence for human evolution.

It shows characteristics from the very primitive non-human evolutionary line (prosimians, such as lemurs), but is more related to the human evolutionary line (anthropoids, such as monkeys, apes and humans), said Norwegian paleontologist Jørn Hurum of the University of Oslo Natural History Museum. However, she is not really an anthropoid either, he said.

The fossil, called Darwinius masillae and said to be a female, provides the most complete understanding of the paleobiology of any primate so far discovered from the Eocene Epoch, Hurum said. An analysis of the fossil mammal is detailed Tuesday in the journal PLoS ONE.

"This is the first link to all humans ... truly a fossil that links world heritage," Hurum said.

Here is some context for the age of the new primate fossil: Anatomically modern humans (Homo sapiens) first emerged about 200,000 years ago, but early humans such as Australopithecus afarensis and Australopithecus anamensis reach back 3 million to 4 million years ago or even earlier. Humans are thought to have split off from a group that includes chimpanzees and gorillas about 6 million years ago. And a group that includes all the great apes (including us) and Old World monkeys (called simians or anthropoids) diverged from New World monkeys in the Eocene, just after the time of Ida. So our primate roots reach back to this time.

History of discovery
For the past two years, an international team of scientists led by Hurum has conducted a detailed forensic analysis of the fossil.

The fossil was apparently discovered in 1983 by private collectors who split and eventually sold two parts of the skeleton on separate plates: The lesser part was restored and, in the process, partly fabricated to make it look more complete.

This part was purchased for a private museum in Wyoming, and then described by Jens L. Franzen, part of Hurum's team, who recognized the fabrication. The more complete part has just come to light, and it now belongs to the Natural History Museum of the University of Oslo.

Ida was preserved in Germany’s Messel Pit, a mile-wide crater containing oil-rich shale that is a significant site for fossils of the Eocene Epoch. Opposable big toes and nail-bearing tips on the fingers and toes confirm that the fossil is a primate, and a foot bone called the talus bone links Ida directly to humans, Hurum said.

The fossil also preserved the primate's gut contents, including fruits, seeds and leaves. X-rays reveal both baby and adult teeth, plus the lack of a "toothcomb" or a "grooming claw," which is an attribute of lemurs (which are also primates, like us, but are considered more primitive and part of a family different from great apes and us).

The scientists estimate that Ida was about 9 months old at death, and measured about 3 feet in length. Her forward-facing eyes are like ours — which would have enabled her fields of vision to overlap, allowing 3-D vision and an ability to judge distance. She was probably nocturnal, Hurum and his colleagues say.

Death scenario
Ida lived at a time when mammals were evolving quickly on a planet that was basically a vast jungle. Early horses, bats, whales and many other creatures, including the first primates, thrived at this time when the climate was subtropical. The Himalayas were being formed.

X-rays reveal that a broken wrist may have contributed to Ida’s death — her left wrist was healing from a bad fracture, Hurum said.

She could have been overcome by carbon dioxide gas while drinking from the Messel lake: the still waters of the lake were often covered by a low-lying blanket of the gas as a result of the volcanic forces that formed the lake and which were still active.

Hampered by her broken wrist, Ida possibly slipped into unconsciousness, was washed into the lake and sunk to the bottom, where the unique conditions preserved her for 47 million years, Hurum said.

A replica of Ida will go on display later this week at the American Museum of Natural History's new "Extreme Mammals" exhibition. A book and a TV documentary, both titled "The Link," have been timed for release to coincide with the publication of the research.

Dozens of reporters swarmed to the museum for Tuesday's announcement at the museum, where even New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg was on hand to extol the discovery. The fossilized creature lay on its side, suspended in a block of amber-colored material sitting in a brightly lit specimen case.

Before Tuesday's event, the fossil was shrouded in secrecy, and its unveiling unfolded more like a Hollywood production than a scientific discovery. When asked if the publicity was overdone, Hurum said he didn't think so.

"That's part of getting science out to the public to get attention," he said. "I don't think that's so wrong."

This report was supplemented by msnbc.com. LiveScience provides further coverage of the celebrity treatment surrounding the fossil.

© 2009 LiveScience.com. All rights reserved. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30826552/?GT1=43001)

Diamondjimi
05-20-2009, 12:30 AM
Very interesting...
Wonder what the many folks who dismiss scientific facts ,and actually believe we walked among the dinosaurs 6000 years ago,will think of this story...

Isaac R.
05-21-2009, 02:23 AM
Not ready to chuck 8 years of Parochial school out the window but OK...

Kristy
05-22-2009, 05:12 PM
Very interesting...
Wonder what the many folks who dismiss scientific facts ,and actually believe we walked among the dinosaurs 6000 years ago,will think of this story...

C'mon! You didn't have to bring Pat Robertson into this. Although I will admit I'm interested in what Mr. Senile has to say on the subject. I'll have a quiet laugh, say "fuck you" back the TV screen and move on with my life.

Sarge
05-22-2009, 05:29 PM
How many times have they said that they found the missing link?
Every fossil that was once thought to be the missing link has been proved to be false.
Every one!
Fossil records are inaccurate and the guys finding this stuff are desperately trying to make a name for themselves. Their job is shifting through dirt!
They actually named the fossil "Darwinius masillae" to either piss people off or to create a stir.

These guys studied the fossil in secret for 2 years before letting anyone know!
I am not taking sides or giving my view.. just stating that the fossil record has never been very accurate.
This.. coming from a member of the Church of David Lee Roth - In Roth We Trust!

Breasts,
Sarge

thome
05-22-2009, 05:38 PM
Yeap, that's how it happened the dosivus illusivii fossil, less that 300 Killometers to the left of thesite told me so



She could have been overcome by carbon dioxide gas while drinking from the Messel lake: the still waters of the lake were often covered by a low-lying blanket of the gas as a result of the volcanic forces that formed the lake and which were still active.

Hampered by her broken wrist, Ida possibly slipped into unconsciousness, was washed into the lake and sunk to the bottom, where the unique conditions preserved her for 47 million years, Hurum said.

http://assets.comics.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/200000/70000/4000/600/274601/274601.zoom.gif

Seshmeister
05-22-2009, 09:11 PM
How many times have they said that they found the missing link?
Every fossil that was once thought to be the missing link has been proved to be false.
Every one!
Fossil records are inaccurate and the guys finding this stuff are desperately trying to make a name for themselves. Their job is shifting through dirt!
They actually named the fossil "Darwinius masillae" to either piss people off or to create a stir.

These guys studied the fossil in secret for 2 years before letting anyone know!
I am not taking sides or giving my view.. just stating that the fossil record has never been very accurate.
This.. coming from a member of the Church of David Lee Roth - In Roth We Trust!

Breasts,
Sarge

The missing link is now an old and redundant issue. As you say these people are going for the publicity angle. The evolution of humans from lower species has been completely proved and the arguments you hear about 'missing links' or whatever are all out of date and irrelevant.

Genetics have proved it plus the fossil record has grown hugely in our lifetimes since we had tens of thousands of scientists digging up fossils rather than the olden times of enthusiastic amateurs. But as I said that's all not important now that we have genetics.

Ironically if you believe in the death penalty in the US then effectively you support evolution because usually when your system kills it's citizens there is DNA evidence and comparing the DNA of different animals unequivocally proves evolution.

It's that simple unless the invisible cloud imaginary friend guy is deliberately just trying to have a fucking laugh with us in which case he/she/it can't possibly complain.

Cheers

:gulp:

jhale667
05-22-2009, 09:14 PM
Not ready to chuck 8 years of Parochial school out the window but OK...

I gave 12 the heave-ho. You should try it.

Seshmeister
05-22-2009, 09:16 PM
It's not easy to be fair.

The reason that religions focus so much on kids is that if they don't plant the infection into the brain at an early age then people who are not mentally weak say 'oh fuck off stop being so silly'.

Nickdfresh
05-22-2009, 11:17 PM
I believe evolution is the beauty of God...

Sammy Who??
05-22-2009, 11:21 PM
i thought sockfucker was the missing link?

or was it captain caveman aka captain cavecock! who survived AIDS

Nickdfresh
05-22-2009, 11:26 PM
Right Sister Christan Seen...

Sarge
05-23-2009, 07:08 AM
The missing link is now an old and redundant issue. As you say these people are going for the publicity angle. The evolution of humans from lower species has been completely proved and the arguments you hear about 'missing links' or whatever are all out of date and irrelevant.

Genetics have proved it plus the fossil record has grown hugely in our lifetimes since we had tens of thousands of scientists digging up fossils rather than the olden times of enthusiastic amateurs. But as I said that's all not important now that we have genetics.

Ironically if you believe in the death penalty in the US then effectively you support evolution because usually when your system kills it's citizens there is DNA evidence and comparing the DNA of different animals unequivocally proves evolution.

It's that simple unless the invisible cloud imaginary friend guy is deliberately just trying to have a fucking laugh with us in which case he/she/it can't possibly complain.

Cheers

:gulp:

I had a hard time following some of the stuff you wrote, mainly because some of the stuff that you wrote about as being a "Fact" .. isn't.

I don't want to get into an Evolution debate, because that has been done here at least 100 times.
I do want to say that in order to talk about Evolution you must define which evolution you are talking about.

Micro-evolution: Evolution within a species. This has been proved. We adapt just like all the other living creatures to our environment. Dna mutates and it's a fact.

Macro Evolution - Remember the pictures in our textbooks as children where they had us going from a micro-organism to a fish to a walking fish to a monkey to an ape to man? That is a fairy tale! It's a theory.. not a fact.
Every missing link that has ever been found has proved to be false.
I like how scientists think they know what happened 45 million years ago.
I want to see how a tadpole transforms itself into a giraffe.
I don't believe that 1 creature changes into a completely different creature. If they did, we would have some fossil evidence of it.

I believe in Micro Evolution.. not Macro Evolution.
Show me the proof of Macroevolution? There isn't any.

I don't care what anyone's beliefs are here. You can believe in what you want. I choose not to believe in the latest "missing link" because of the fact that all of the other ones have been proved False.

Breasts,

Seshmeister
05-23-2009, 07:36 AM
You're right we have had the evolution debate before here.

But you are wrong about not having fossil evidence of transitions. The lack of these is misinformation put about creationists. There are tons of transition fossils showing the macro evolution of creatures notably from lizards to birds.

It's not a matter of belief its empirical fact, seriously go look it up you have been misled.

Cheers!

:gulp:

Seshmeister
05-23-2009, 07:45 AM
Anyway as I was saying it's not even all about fossils anymore. It was convincing that all the simple fossils were in old rock and the complex ones in newer rock and that you could track them thorugh time.

Now though we have DNA and genetic evidence and that has completely settled the issue. Its no longer an argument except amongst people that haven't looked at the science or have superstitions that don't allow them to.

<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/i1fGkFuHIu0&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/i1fGkFuHIu0&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>

Sarge
05-23-2009, 07:55 AM
You're right we have had the evolution debate before here.

But you are wrong about not having fossil evidence of transitions. The lack of these is misinformation put about creationists. There are tons of transition fossils showing the macro evolution of creatures notably from lizards to birds.

It's not a matter of belief its empirical fact, seriously go look it up you have been misled.

Cheers!

:gulp:
I am aware of transitional fossils like Fish → Tetrapods and Invertebrates → Fish.
A lot of the science of linking different creatures is guess work. The guess work issue I have a problem with because scientists list it as "fact'. They are merely looking at a fossil that is 45 million years old and trying to bring it to current terms.

There has never been one fossil that linked humans to any other species.
I have not been misled by anyone.
That is the reason why the scientists are trying to make a big deal about this one.

Look at this video on this "missing Link"
Missing link found? Scientists unveil fossil of 47 million-year-old primate, Darwinius masillae (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/05/19/2009-05-19_missing_link_found_fossil_of_47_millionyearold_ primate_sheds_light_on_.html)

"They may have found the first ever link to human beings"

I am not bring in religion into this or anything of the sort.
I am just trying to make the point that there is a lot of guess work involved and I don't believe most of the stuff these guys present.


Breasts,

Sarge
05-23-2009, 08:00 AM
Its no longer an argument except amongst people that haven't looked at the science or have superstitions that don't allow them to

Thanks for the video, but I am not arguing creation here.
I have no superstitions. I look at things with an open mind.

If you are going to look at things with an open mind.. you have to realize that there is a bunch of information that is floating around that is posted as fact.. that is not.

Douglas T.
05-23-2009, 11:49 AM
Sooo ... I wonder when humans will start sprouting wings!? Seems to be the next step in this "evolution" scale!

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/DTSKYNYRD/cow.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/DTSKYNYRD/bears.jpg

Nitro Express
05-23-2009, 03:00 PM
How many times have they said that they found the missing link?
Every fossil that was once thought to be the missing link has been proved to be false.
Every one!
Fossil records are inaccurate and the guys finding this stuff are desperately trying to make a name for themselves. Their job is shifting through dirt!
They actually named the fossil "Darwinius masillae" to either piss people off or to create a stir.

These guys studied the fossil in secret for 2 years before letting anyone know!
I am not taking sides or giving my view.. just stating that the fossil record has never been very accurate.
This.. coming from a member of the Church of David Lee Roth - In Roth We Trust!

Breasts,
Sarge

Someone is tooting their horn to sell television and books. These paranormal and UFO people do the same thing. When the discovery doesn't match the promotional hype, be suspect. It's like how the media is hyping the hell out of a flu pandemic. The hype is more than the problem to sell vaccines and such.

Nitro Express
05-23-2009, 03:02 PM
The so called answer to "Why are we here?" is potentially very profitable.

Nitro Express
05-23-2009, 03:03 PM
Sooo ... I wonder when humans will start sprouting wings!? Seems to be the next step in this "evolution" scale!

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/DTSKYNYRD/cow.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n137/DTSKYNYRD/bears.jpg

You wings never grew in yet? I've had mine for years.

Sarge
05-23-2009, 03:13 PM
You wings never grew in yet? I've had mine for years.


I have tail... it's very long and for some reason it grew in the front.

Seshmeister
05-23-2009, 06:02 PM
Thats not a tail, that's your nose... :)

Douglas T.
05-23-2009, 10:46 PM
The so called answer to "Why are we here?" is potentially very profitable.

Ya think?

GAR
05-24-2009, 05:17 AM
The evolution of humans from lower species has been completely proved and the arguments you hear about 'missing links' or whatever are all out of date and irrelevant.

It's an arrogant and outrageous statement you make here, when any link required for proof is at the chromosomal stage, not the fossilized record.

You're a Scot? Id expect more than just a flash wank statement of reiterated 1950's gradeschool texts like this Sesh.

GAR
05-24-2009, 05:32 AM
I believe evolution is the beauty of God...

Humans have 23 pairs of mtDNA
Chimps have 24

These fossils don't have shit=zero dna to say "aha, here's the point and we can prove it because the code markers for humans, and the primates we say humans evolved from, are interchangeable like a garden hose to any common outdoor spigot"

It's all about the mathematics of what they're saying is fact not resolving, and for me to accept this it has to resolve or else it's an incomplete theory. A cute one that makes me chuckle at how fools believe it as fact but it's still incomplete.

Ally_Kat
05-24-2009, 02:57 PM
[B][SIZE="3"] The lesser part was restored and, in the process, partly fabricated to make it look more complete.

[/url]

Partly fabricated? I dunno...

Nickdfresh
05-24-2009, 05:03 PM
Partly fabricated? I dunno...

It was a poor choice of words. I think "artists rendition" would be more appropriate...

chefcraig
05-24-2009, 07:29 PM
The history channel will be featuring a documentary called "The Link" Monday evening May 25, 2009.

The Link (http://www.history.com/content/the-link)

Isaac R.
05-24-2009, 09:09 PM
I gave 12 the heave-ho. You should try it.

Not so easy to do.




I believe evolution is the beauty of God...

There you go. Plenty of room for both theories far as I'm concerned.
Who's to say the big guy didn't run a couple different models b4 deciding?