View Full Version : Americans' net worth shrinks $1.33 trillion in 1Q
Americans' net worth shrinks $1.33 trillion in 1Q - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090611/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/us_net_worth)
Americans' net worth shrinks $1.33 trillion in 1Q
<cite class="vcard"> By JEANNINE AVERSA, AP Economics Writer Jeannine Aversa, Ap Economics Writer </cite> – <abbr title="2009-06-11T10:11:30-0700" class="recenttimedate">16 mins ago</abbr>
<!-- end .byline --> WASHINGTON – American households lost $1.33 trillion of their wealth in the first three months of the year as the recession took a bite out of stock portfolios and dragged down home prices.
The Federal Reserve reported Thursday that household net worth fell to $50.38 trillion in the January-March quarter, the lowest level since the third quarter of 2004. The first-quarter figure marked a decline of 2.6 percent, or $1.33 trillion, from the final quarter of 2008.
Net worth represents total assets such as homes and checking accounts, minus liabilities like mortgages and credit card debt.
The damage to wealth in the first quarter came from the sinking stock market. The value of Americans' stock holdings dropped 5.8 percent from the final quarter of last year.
The stock market began to rally from 12-year lows in early March after Citigroup Inc. reported it was profitable in the first two months of the year. Since peaking in October 2007, it had been the worst bear market since the aftermath of the crash of 1929.
Another hit came from falling house prices. The value of household real-estate holdings fell 2.4 percent, according to the Fed report.
Collectively, homeowners had only 41.4 percent equity in their homes in the first quarter. That was down from 42.9 percent in the fourth quarter and was the lowest on records dating to 1945.
The Case-Shiller national home price index, a closely watched barometer, last month estimated that house prices dropped 7.5 percent during the first quarter. Prices have fallen 32.2 percent since peaking in the second quarter of 2006.
The latest snapshot of Americans' balance sheets was contained in the Fed's quarterly report called the flow of funds.
Despite the drop, the speed at which net worth shrunk slowed at the start of the year. During the recession's deepest point in the October-December period, Americans' net worth fell a record 8.6 percent, according to revised figures. That was the largest drop on records dating to 1951.
With wealth declining and unemployment rising, there are questions about how consumers — the lifeblood of the economy — will behave in the coming months.
If they continue to spend, even at a subdued pace, the recession likely will end this year as predicted by Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke and other economists. However, if consumers hunker down and cut spending again, that could delay any recovery. In the final quarter of last year, Americans slashed spending at an annualized rate of 4.3 percent, the most in 28 years.
Still, there was some encouraging news on consumer spending Thursday.
Retail sales rose 0.5 percent in May, following two straight monthly declines, the Commerce Department reported. Meanwhile, the number of newly laid-off workers filing for unemployment benefits fell last week by 24,000 to 601,000, the lowest level since late January.
Okay FORD - neither Fox nor MSNBC.. this is from AP so your turn in excusing this.
I've been saying this was gonna happen since last July now its here to roost.
jhale667
06-11-2009, 02:02 PM
You act (mostly because it fits your hate agenda) as if the economy wasn't already well in the toilet thanks to Bush prior to Obama even being elected. And most experts agreed it was going to get worse before it got better.
.. most experts agreed it was going to get worse before it got better.
WRONG that was Obama
sadaist
06-11-2009, 02:15 PM
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CJu0DgpiK8c&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CJu0DgpiK8c&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Seshmeister
06-11-2009, 02:42 PM
Maybe that fucker should go out and work on creating some jobs rather than spending all day every day counting out bags of pennies... :)
Okay FORD - neither Fox nor MSNBC.. this is from AP so your turn in excusing this.
I've been saying this was gonna happen since last July now its here to roost.
And who was in the White House last July, you stupid piece of racist shit?
It was the INSANE economic policies of the BCE that did this. And yes, some of the corporations, headed by CEO's who always vote Repuke deliberately saved all their job cuts and bankruptcies until after January 20.
Why? So goddamn morons like YOU would blame it on Obama. Even though the damage was long done before he had a say in the matter.
LoungeMachine
06-11-2009, 03:17 PM
Okay FORD - neither Fox nor MSNBC.. this is from AP so your turn in excusing this.
I've been saying this was gonna happen since last July now its here to roost.
Link?
:gulp:
kwame k
06-11-2009, 07:47 PM
The Federal Reserve reported Thursday that household net worth fell to $50.38 trillion in the January-March quarter, the lowest level since the third quarter of 2004.
Who was President then, racist?
During the recession's deepest point in the October-December period, Americans' net worth fell a record 8.6 percent, according to revised figures.
Obama was President in Oct and Dec?
Looks like a bunch of self-serving White dudes got us in this mess, si-gar. I know it's silly to ask but you didn't even read that article, did you Clay?
Let's quit guzzling KoolAid gentlemen.
<object width="425" height="344">
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jjXyqcx-mYY&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>
Bend over and smell the coffee! Yo's GONNA git taxxxed.. yussah.
kwame k
06-12-2009, 01:12 AM
Geez, scathing political commentary from a racist, google oxymoron.......read the definition over several times and try to retain said information.
I clicked to groan your post, but I knew before hand it throw the race card out there.
Youse gost owned, Missuh!
sadaist
06-12-2009, 05:06 AM
stupid piece of racist shit
Who was President then, racist?
Geez, scathing political commentary from a racist
Dang Gar, you're already partially qualified for a Supreme Court nomination.
hideyoursheep
06-12-2009, 06:31 AM
Let's quit guzzling KoolAid gentlemen.
Bend over and smell the coffee! Yo's GONNA git taxxxed.. yussah.
Stupid Retardlican.
TAX
Cunts like you seem to be frightened to death of that word.
Words like LIE and WAR you totally ignore because it doesn't affect you directly....but TAX....:rolleyes:
The only capacity you'll ever be asked to actually DO anything for your country and you cry like a baby.
Coming home to roost indeed.
kwame k
06-12-2009, 07:58 AM
I clicked to groan your post, but I knew before hand it throw the race card out there.
Youse gost owned, Missuh!
Troll to English translation, please.
BITEYOASS
06-12-2009, 11:34 AM
Most of this net worth shrink was probably due to the great reduction in house prices, all due to the petering out of the rampant house flipping over the past decade.
letsrock
06-12-2009, 11:37 AM
Whats going on i thought that i was the one that cant fucking spell.
letsrock
06-12-2009, 11:38 AM
I found most of that money in the cushions of the couch.
ODShowtime
06-12-2009, 07:19 PM
Okay FORD - neither Fox nor MSNBC.. this is from AP so your turn in excusing this.
I've been saying this was gonna happen since last July now its here to roost.
Seriously, is it your contention that the recession is Obama's fault? Because if it is you are retarded because that is absolutely ridiculous. So is Big Train thanking you for it!
This shit's been going on for over a year! Just off the top of my head Florida's government depository fund has lost like half a billion dollars since 2007!
Florida stands to lose $1 billion because of Lehman Brothers' bankruptcy
By Sydney P. Freedberg and Connie Humburg, Times Staff Writers
In Print: Friday, June 5, 2009
A price tag is now emerging for what last year's collapse of investment giant Lehman Brothers could cost the state of Florida: more than $1 billion.
The losses could make Florida and its citizens among the biggest casualties in the biggest bankruptcy ever.
More than $440 million disappeared from the pension fund that pays benefits for some 1 million retirees and public employees.
Counties, cities and school districts face a loss of more than $300 million for roads, sewers and schools.
The state has $290 million less to pay for everything from hurricane claims to health care, community colleges and care for infants with disabilities.
While the general losses have been expected, this is the first public accounting of the magnitude of the Lehman-related public losses for Florida.
The outlook is bleak in bankruptcy court. In years to come, the state will be lucky to collect pennies on the dollar.
In an interview, even the ever-optimistic Gov. Charlie Crist could not muster a sunny side: "It is, to say the least, an unfortunate situation.''
• • •
Lehman Brothers, which built the nation's railroads and survived the Great Depression, filed for bankruptcy protection last September.
Its failure sank banks and stocks, but the fallout reverberated far beyond Wall Street.
In Florida, Lehman Brothers was an icon of finance and real estate, managing public assets, selling securities, underwriting bond deals and handling residential and commercial mortgages.
In the last decade, Florida paid Lehman at least $27 million in fees for managing public investments and brokering and underwriting bond deals.
The storied bank hired former Gov. Jeb Bush as a consultant in June 2007, five months after he left office. As governor, Bush also served as a trustee for the State Board of Administration, which invests public money.
Lehman was the dominant Wall Street broker that sold the SBA $1.4 billion of risky, mortgage-related securities that started tanking in August 2007.
Bush has said he had nothing to do with those sales.
"As Governor Bush has stated several times in response to your inquiries, his role as a consultant to Lehman Brothers was in no way related to any Florida investments,'' said his spokeswoman, Kristy Campbell.
"It is unfortunate the St. Petersburg Times continues to perpetuate this incorrect and baseless conjecture.''
• • •
The risky investments Lehman sold the SBA meant losses to the budgets of almost 1,000 state and local governments.
The local governments still get principal and some interest payments but are stuck with about $556 million in tainted securities that they can't redeem.
The off-limit funds mean less operating cash for sewers in Port St. Lucie and classrooms in Jefferson County.
Hillsborough, already shedding jobs and cutting services, faces a loss of $11.3 million. "When you're making cuts, every additional cut is more painful than the last,'' said budget director Eric Johnson.
Pasco faces a loss of $6.6 million.
"That's a huge amount of money for us,'' said Commissioner Michael Cox, a financial adviser. "To put it in perspective, our whole parks and libraries budget is $19.8 million.''
He said Florida made a costly mistake by not selling the tainted investments long before the bankruptcy.
State officials are telling local governments that if they hold on long enough, they just might recover their losses.
Still, the state has filed a claim in bankruptcy court in Manhattan, seeking to recoup $675.8 million for the bad investments.
In its complaint, Florida says Lehman Brothers sold it securities that were not registered with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Such securities are meant only for qualified, sophisticated buyers that understand the risks.
But documents show that SBA managers were made aware of the risks all along. Before they bought the securities, they received confidential memos, e-mails and investor reports from brokers and sponsors that detailed the risks.
• • •
Florida lost more than $400 million in sales of Lehman stocks and bonds. It also faces a loss of more than $80 million on bonds it hasn't sold yet. That has squeezed dozens of state organizations — from the Division of Blind Services to the Chiles tobacco endowment to a health insurance subsidy for retirees.
The biggest casualty is Florida's giant public pension fund. It took a $230 million hit on Lehman stocks and bonds. The pension fund holds another $53 million in Lehman bonds that have lost most of their value and has $323 million tied up in tarnished mortgage-related securities purchased from Lehman. If the state sold those securities today, the pension fund would lose about $188 million more.
Almost 1 million public employees and retirees — from teachers and firefighters to social workers and police officers — participate in Florida's plan.
The SBA, which manages the pension fund, downplayed the long-term effect of the Lehman bankruptcy. Spokesman Dennis MacKee said that benefits paid to retirees won't be affected. Government employers would have to pay more to plug any pension funding gap. But MacKee said the Lehman holdings were such a small part of the pension fund portfolio that it's "very unlikely'' the losses would result in higher costs.
...
Florida stands to lose $1 billion because of Lehman Brothers' bankruptcy - St. Petersburg Times (http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/article1007445.ece)
Man I didn't even realize jebediah was involved in it until I looked up this article just now. Go fuckin' figure. Now that whole thing makes much more sense.
But my point is that this is just one example in a country and world that's gotten it's balls kicked in on the open market.
This started two years ago!
You're a fucking retard!
Stop posting nonsense!
Dang Gar, you're already partially qualified for a Supreme Court nomination.
I was trying to catch up to kwame, listed as high poster of the day at 46 posts and got cutoff at 43 when some spineless mod installed a 20min speedbump about midnight.
It wasn't a supermod, Vabeachfan had already signed off. If I see it again, I will boycott for a week, then a month then a year like I did in 2006.. which became a 2yr boycott.
Whoever is THEE dick, quit fucking with the board..
hideyoursheep
06-13-2009, 03:30 AM
I was trying to catch up to kwame-
Doubtful that could happen.
Seriously, is it your contention that the recession is Obama's fault?
I said it last year, if Obama gets elected we'll see the economy nosedive perpetuated, massive unemployment and fiscal scams bigger than Wall St. go down as he lines the chicago mobs' pockets while fleecing the taxpayer under the guise of buying health insurance.
They knew they had only one term to grab all they could and I'm really surprised to see nobody's scraped those dumbo Obama stickers off their cars.
It's like this, Hitler said there are 3 classes of people: those who are good and do everything they're told, there are those who expect the government to tell them what is good and can usually be counted upon to obey, and then you get those assholes who question every fucking thing and have to close each open item with a feedback loop of the truth before settling that question.
To that effect, Obama and Hitler are the same.
Doubtful that could happen.
If anyone should get dinged with the speedbump vbull hack, it's that guy.
Igosplut
06-13-2009, 08:06 AM
I was trying to catch up to kwame, listed as high poster of the day at 46 posts and got cutoff at 43 when some spineless mod installed a 20min speedbump about midnight.
It wasn't a supermod, Vabeachfan had already signed off. If I see it again, I will boycott for a week, then a month then a year like I did in 2006.. which became a 2yr boycott.
Whoever is THEE dick, quit fucking with the board..
You're just really not that bright, are you?
Rather than repeat things you can't comprehend about board function, like ANYBODY gives a flying FUCK about your post count.....
kwame k
06-13-2009, 10:07 AM
I was trying to catch up to kwame, listed as high poster of the day at 46 posts and got cutoff at 43 when some spineless mod installed a 20min speedbump about midnight.
It wasn't a supermod, Vabeachfan had already signed off. If I see it again, I will boycott for a week, then a month then a year like I did in 2006.. which became a 2yr boycott.
Whoever is THEE dick, quit fucking with the board..
Please God let whatever happened in Clay's little mind, happen again. Go for the boycott forever, Clay. Everyone here would actually thank you.
LoungeMachine
06-13-2009, 10:19 AM
I was trying to catch up to kwame, listed as high poster of the day at 46 posts and got cutoff at 43 when some spineless mod installed a 20min speedbump about midnight.
It wasn't a supermod, Vabeachfan had already signed off. If I see it again, I will boycott for a week, then a month then a year like I did in 2006.. which became a 2yr boycott.
Whoever is THEE dick, quit fucking with the board..
You really are an idiot......
Boycott?
Who here would give a shit?
:gulp:
ODShowtime
06-13-2009, 10:22 AM
I said it last year, if Obama gets elected we'll see the economy nosedive perpetuated, massive unemployment and fiscal scams bigger than Wall St. go down as he lines the chicago mobs' pockets while fleecing the taxpayer under the guise of buying health insurance.
You still fail to see that your argument is illogical. The whole recession started years ago with factors such as the skyrocketing housing market and all the risky mortgages that were packaged and sold as less risky bonds. All the put option bond insurance sold by Lehman Brothers. The two long and costly wars (the legitimacy of which is for another debate) This all started long before Obama. The effects of this are the loss of wealth and the unemployment figures.
Every thing Obama's done is to try to stem the bleeding and start the recovery. All his actions are a result of the rank incompetence of the banking industry and gw&friend's lax oversight.
A recession like this takes years to come to fruition. And you're here blaming a guy who's been in office for half a year. Because you heard it from hannity or rush or some other shill. Ridiculous. No wonder gw got re-elected in 2004.
kwame k
06-13-2009, 10:28 AM
but, but....... Obama is half black and may have fathered black children. :umm: It's just gotta be his fault.
Nitro Express
06-13-2009, 12:14 PM
Look past Obama's rehtoric and look at what he is doing. He's another Bush. He's not bringing the troops home but expanding the war into Pakistahn. He's not restoring Constitutional freedoms lost due to the Patriot Act. He's not cutting govt. waste. He's ran up record deficits bailing out his Wall Street friends and then puts a tax cheat in charge of the Treasury Department.
I don't see any change other than we are now trying to be friendly with Iran because Obama's sponser Zbignew Brezinski always saw the neocon meddling in the middle east stupid. He hates Russia and China and wants to cut off China's interests around the world and this is why we are in Pakistahn and will also focus on Sudan and other Africa nations that are important to China.
The neocons are out but that only means our military will meddle overseas differently.
Also, why isn't Obama going after the war criminals in the Bush Administration? He won't. It's a big boys club. Obama will just give us more debt, more war, and more long-term problems.
Nitro Express
06-13-2009, 12:25 PM
What hurt the US is the dumbing down of the population and the outsourcing of the real economy. The US now runs on a paper shuffling economy and that is short lived if you don't produce anything and sell it worldwide. We are now an importer and the world's largest debtor nation. Some say this has all been engineered by powerful people who want to mop the world up into a global govt. they control and others say it's just short-term greed. Maybe it's a little of both. Whether it's conspiracy or incompetance the result is usually the same.
All I can say is we are heading into some of the worst economic times in our country's history and it very well could melt down into another worldwide struggle for power and/or a very nasty civil war here. We are going to have massive civil unrest around the world and people are going to exploit that. It possibly could be world war III which with the weapons we have now, is not a pretty scenero. When the financial system fails, nations always duke it out.
It doesn't help that Barry overpromised his campaign.
It doesn't help that Barry mislead those who voted for him.
It doesn't help that Barry is making the US look like a weepy ass.
It doesn't help that Barry send the clueless Geithner to China.
It doesn't help that Barry owes ALOT of favor to mob unions, the insurance biz, the pharma biz, and the radical Democrat biz.
It doesn't help that Barry is parting out the US auto industry.
It doesn't help that Barry can't respond without a teleprompter.
It doesn't help that Barry's spokeshole is a stuttering boob.
It doesn't help that in the final anaysis, Barry looks more and more like a puppet when you really look at it for the face value of what he can and can't do, to predict what he will and will not do!
You're just really not that bright, are you?
Rather than repeat things you can't comprehend about board function, like ANYBODY gives a flying FUCK about your post count.....
You don't know shit, I got an error message that said "come back in 20 minutes" and I was 3 posts away from overtaking Kwame for the day. So what's up with that shit?
Do you know? Did you install the hack, is that you over at vbulletin forums talking shit? NO, okay so just STFU and quit being rude. You don't know what you're commenting on.
Blaze
06-14-2009, 07:33 AM
Gar, I got it recently too.
I could point fingers at the usual suspect (simply because the usual suspect already has did so much crapolla seems logical to blow it off as the usual suspect)
or I could reason mundane choices.
Like the site has upgrades or repair happening.
Take note and document, if a pattern emerges or warranted. Then quietly and calmly submit anomalies reports, and be done with it. Your information might simply get filed for data gathering or action taken, either way do not expect to be informed concerning every action or report filed.
BTW, FYI. here and other places might just make a special file just for your reports, until you become shown to be reliable even-headed and consistent.
Igosplut
06-14-2009, 08:14 AM
You don't know shit, I got an error message that said "come back in 20 minutes" and I was 3 posts away from overtaking Kwame for the day. So what's up with that shit?
Do you know? Did you install the hack, is that you over at vbulletin forums talking shit? NO, okay so just STFU and quit being rude. You don't know what you're commenting on.
I have no problem believing that you got an error message. But you're saying a hack was installed JUST for you by a mod.....
THAT you are making up
Hacks can only be installed by a WEB, and even then he has to have the root key or password.
I seriously doubt that Sarge/Co would consider putting unnecessary hacks that can destabilize the board just to keep you from having the great honor of passing another poster/mod in a post count on any given day.
So STFU Coward....
kwame k
06-14-2009, 01:51 PM
post count, Clay? You really have no life, do you?
LoungeMachine
06-14-2009, 01:58 PM
post count, Clay? You really have no life, do you?
lmao:
The epitome of no-life troll.
He tries to "beat" you at some bullshit post count whatever, and when he can't he cries and blames the big bad meanie mods who are after him....
:lmao:
Clay, you should BOYCOTT the site until the perp is outted and fired. STAND UP FOR YOURSELF
Don't let them [us] push you around likes this.
Own them [us] !!!!
:gulp:
knuckleboner
06-14-2009, 02:39 PM
I said it last year, if Obama gets elected we'll see the economy nosedive perpetuated, massive unemployment and fiscal scams bigger than Wall St. go down as he lines the chicago mobs' pockets while fleecing the taxpayer under the guise of buying health insurance.
i have no doubt you're just trying to rile people up. after all, you can't be that stupid. but, fair enough.
however, just for everyone else's benefit:
since bottoming out in march, the stock market has risen nearly 40%. in fact, it's now in positive territory for 2009; after having tanked in 2008.
consumer confidence and consumer spending are both up.
inventories have been massively depleted, so as long as consumer spending and confidence continue to improve, manufacturing will have to increase.
we are no where near back to good times. but there are quite a few verifiable signs that the economy is beginning to turn around. from the recession that began in december of 2007.
comments?
LoungeMachine
06-14-2009, 02:54 PM
i
after all, you can't be that stupid.
Wanna bet?
:gulp:
..quietly and calmly submit anomalies reports, and be done with it. Your information might simply get filed for data gathering or action taken, either way do not expect to be informed concerning every action or report filed.
This new 20-minute speedbump must have been installed by Sarge.. he bends over to any whim of the weakest contingency in the mod room.
Flagging posts about it doesn't work, he's back to not giving a shit again now that the site's up and fucknational.
So STFU Coward....
Look go soil your linens with this one: Sesh mentions the possibility of a vbull posting timeout and a week later it's funcntioning.
Own them [us] !!!!
When you're prepared to go toe to toe on an even-level instead of deleting my posts and stuffing 'em somewhere else, and snipping entire text off my posts (edited by: LoungeMachine) it is classless to own you.. because you'll just turn around and fuck with the post twisting it to your favor.
Blaze
06-14-2009, 05:19 PM
:):):)
Big Train
06-15-2009, 01:21 AM
i have no doubt you're just trying to rile people up. after all, you can't be that stupid. but, fair enough.
however, just for everyone else's benefit:
since bottoming out in march, the stock market has risen nearly 40%. in fact, it's now in positive territory for 2009; after having tanked in 2008.
consumer confidence and consumer spending are both up.
inventories have been massively depleted, so as long as consumer spending and confidence continue to improve, manufacturing will have to increase.
we are no where near back to good times. but there are quite a few verifiable signs that the economy is beginning to turn around. from the recession that began in december of 2007.
comments?
While there are many positive signs, it's a question of can it be sustained and is the market just correcting itself after overdoing it going negative after the election?
The job and housing markets will more than likely continue to drag down (with my state leading the way). Consumer confidence is always a tricky thing, but it is good that it is up. It is also good that inventory is down and leaner. But does that equate to a sustained run?
With the massive government expenditures and the resulting jobs it has shown thus far, it looks bleak. Of course, in 90 days Obama will have made AND/OR saved 600,000 jobs, so I guess I have to let that runs it's course before speaking on it.
The commercial real estate foreclosures are just starting to happen, banks hold onto them longer hoping for a tenant, but the enevitable is only going to erupt as the Second Wave.
And then Obama wants to buy everyone in the land health insurance, in a world where we can't even afford social security we're sending everyone to the doctor who wants to go?
knuckleboner
06-15-2009, 07:49 AM
While there are many positive signs, it's a question of can it be sustained and is the market just correcting itself after overdoing it going negative after the election?
The job and housing markets will more than likely continue to drag down (with my state leading the way). Consumer confidence is always a tricky thing, but it is good that it is up. It is also good that inventory is down and leaner. But does that equate to a sustained run?
With the massive government expenditures and the resulting jobs it has shown thus far, it looks bleak. Of course, in 90 days Obama will have made AND/OR saved 600,000 jobs, so I guess I have to let that runs it's course before speaking on it.
well, i agree that we are by no means out of the woods. all i was saying was that it's foolish to state that the country has gone to hell in a handbasket since obama became president.
however, regarding the government spending and jobs, in actuality, only a small portion of the stimulus funding has been spent. the majority will be spent in 2010.
knuckleboner
06-15-2009, 07:50 AM
Wanna bet?
:gulp:
with you? nope.
(after all, my track record's not so solid...)
letsrock
06-15-2009, 12:08 PM
The commercial real estate foreclosures are just starting to happen, banks hold onto them longer hoping for a tenant, but the enevitable is only going to erupt as the Second Wave.
And then Obama wants to buy everyone in the land health insurance, in a world where we can't even afford social security we're sending everyone to the doctor who wants to go?
Thats true. All at the expense of the working person.
Big Train
06-15-2009, 11:21 PM
well, i agree that we are by no means out of the woods. all i was saying was that it's foolish to state that the country has gone to hell in a handbasket since obama became president.
however, regarding the government spending and jobs, in actuality, only a small portion of the stimulus funding has been spent. the majority will be spent in 2010.
On your first point, agreed.
The stimulus money thus far though, has returned little if any positive benefit. Cranking that level of result up is a net negative effect.
Nitro Express
06-16-2009, 01:41 AM
No politician wants to be responsible for an economic catastrophe. So what they tend to do is prolong the problems to where they won't hit critical mass until they are out of office. I would have personally loved to see the big banks fail and go under. It would have shocked the economy and we would be feeling the pain now but the process would have weeded out the bad money and the good money would take over and rebuild a stronger economy. Obama is trying to avoid a hangover by throwing good money at bad. Instead of puking hard and getting it over with, he's trying to keep us from feeling sick by having us drink more. It will only prolong the misery in the long run.
No politician wants to be responsible for an economic catastrophe.
Not true, Obama's plan is vaguely a 1.2 to 2 trillion dollar insurance scam. I'd call that catastrophe in and of itself!
hideyoursheep
06-16-2009, 02:44 PM
What kind of health insurance do YOU have, GAR?
Is it free?
Is there a premium?
How 'bout a co-pay?
Ever been turned down by a doctor who doesn't "take" your brand?
Do you think that only those well-off enough to pay cash are the only ones entitled to live?
Do you know how many bankruptcies and forclosures are a direct result of health care costs?
Do you know how many of those listed above had health insurance?
It's pricing itself out of reach of the every American and it needs reworked.
Period.
Just because you yourself aren't affected doesn't mean it isn't a problem.
Like Global Warming.
Blaze
06-16-2009, 03:38 PM
Thats true. All at the expense of the working person.
It's the working persons that need to be able to attend doctor's for REAL heath issues. The persons that work is optional well, they can afford the doctors they wish.
http://www.plasticsurgeryhumour.com/img/brain_enlargement.gif
“Do you also do brain enlargement?”
matt19
06-17-2009, 12:13 AM
GAR if i wanted to i could search the internet for something to cut and paste, I could prove every theory I have about life. So do everyone a favor and stfu.
There is no theory here, Congressional Budge Office says it could well be over 1 tril, Obama's outlined the cost will be about 1.2 tril yet the Republicans are saying he's pulling numbers outta his ass and the actual figure will be closer to 1.8 trillion which we never had in the first place since the war budget so far is almost 900 billion and the national debt is already over 11 trillion!
You shouldn't take my word for it, no. I just pull numbers out of the air like the US President. Check this website if you gave half a shit, and read some of the stories leading up to why and how we're in THIS much debt before Obama's master plan to hand over the US Bankruptcy to the Europeans.
U.S. National Debt Clock (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/)
Why do you think GE and its' 200 billion dollar HealthyMagination.com "plink plinka plink plinka" feelgood advertising is gonna get it's money back, unless it is sure it'll get payback by the Administration for running the new Public Health Insurance service? Or becoming its Czar?
Spend spend spend, taxtaxtax.. the pain is coming! You can't do one without the other.
Big Train
06-17-2009, 11:04 AM
If Obama could do any of his stated goals, I will say he is a great president. However, in his actions I see none of it.
If the point of healthcare is to get it cheap, not figure out the best way to spread around an obscene cost, then it would be a success. Seems to me he is focused on how much the taxpayer will have to cover, instead of purely making his focus the cost (other than basic lip service). If the costs were in line, private business could still cover it, no problem.
Everything in the system does not require "Sweeping change" to fix it. In some cases it merely needs accountability and better execution. Actually, in a majority of cases.
Nickdfresh
06-17-2009, 11:40 AM
If Obama could do any of his stated goals, I will say he is a great president. However, in his actions I see none of it.
If the point of healthcare is to get it cheap, not figure out the best way to spread around an obscene cost...
According to CNN, most industrialized nations spend about $2000-$3000 on healthcare per citizen, including those Canadian socialized de'bils. The US spends about $6000 per citizen.
According to CNN, most industrialized nations spend about $2000-$3000 on healthcare per citizen, including those Canadian socialized de'bils. The US spends about $6000 per citizen.
Question for ya...
I do not know if this is a factor in that drastic difference in money spent but...
Are your rates set for different injuries?
For example.
If you break your arm...does one clinic cost more than an other?
I know here...hospitals/doctors bill the gov according to set rates for different procedures...they can not just make up whatever amount the doctor sees fit.
Big Train
06-18-2009, 12:13 AM
According to CNN, most industrialized nations spend about $2000-$3000 on healthcare per citizen, including those Canadian socialized de'bils. The US spends about $6000 per citizen.
This is America, where it will never get that cheap via socialized medicine. It is more likely to end up under Obama like GM with it costing 12k per person and Elvis' nurses union owning 55% of Blue Cross.
Not to mention, the words "Standard of Care" would be drastically different. What passes muster in another country will certainly not in this pampered country of ours.
Big Train
06-18-2009, 12:17 AM
Question for ya...
I do not know if this is a factor in that drastic difference in money spent but...
Are your rates set for different injuries?
For example.
If you break your arm...does one clinic cost more than an other?
I know here...hospitals/doctors bill the gov according to set rates for different procedures...they can not just make up whatever amount the doctor sees fit.
I could be wrong, someone please correct me if I am (like I need to ask), but I believe the ins. companies negotiate with health care providers for different rates for different things and levels (HMO vs. PPO), so it varies quite a bit. I had a specialist for my kid recently tell me after I switched plans that he didn't accept the ins. Cash ended up working out better for both of us...go figure.
knuckleboner
06-18-2009, 12:26 AM
The stimulus money thus far though, has returned little if any positive benefit. Cranking that level of result up is a net negative effect.
there are quite a few economists that disagree. (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/18845.html)
when jobs are being lost by the 600,000s each month, temporary government spending, especially on infrastructure that puts people to work, is likely to have a positive effect.
Big Train
06-18-2009, 01:26 AM
From the article:
But at the end of the day, the economists concluded that anything pumping money into the economy will help in the near term.
Near term is not a solution, it is just an overpriced band-aid. The problem to me isn't spending on infrastructure, it's the spending on government itself and wasteful side projects under the guise of stimulus.
For every one example in the stimulus that has lasting long term economic impact, there are three with short term to no impact to the economy long term, which is the point of the exercise. Taking all the wasted money and applying it to simple debt reduction would do more to save the economy.
hahaha.. I see Tim Geithner like the kid who helps tip the apple cart then goes "hey mister, I'll help pick up the apples if I can keep half of 'em..?
I hope the public really wake up and see what's going on took over a decade to plan and execute and we all have to be on guard for the Daily Obama Fuckup to ring our Democrat reps in DC to tell them "enough is enough."
Now it's the stab at Health Insurance for Everyone - that is NOT reform!
Then, it'll be Auto Insurance for Everyone. Then it's Free Car for Everyone and last but not least the final nail in the auto industry coffin with Cap Imaginary Pollution and Trade Imaginary Pollution.
Cap and Trade Tax is gonna be the EU kicking the door wide open to fucking totally own us. I've seen it with that RoSH "lead free manufacturing" standard being implemented here in the US and it sucks!
Money money money.. it's all about a money grab and has nothing to do with reality. They need to be stopped.
knuckleboner
06-20-2009, 03:18 PM
From the article:
But at the end of the day, the economists concluded that anything pumping money into the economy will help in the near term.
Near term is not a solution, it is just an overpriced band-aid. The problem to me isn't spending on infrastructure, it's the spending on government itself and wasteful side projects under the guise of stimulus.
For every one example in the stimulus that has lasting long term economic impact, there are three with short term to no impact to the economy long term, which is the point of the exercise. Taking all the wasted money and applying it to simple debt reduction would do more to save the economy.
the near term is important.
if we do nothing, the assumption is that the economy, in terms of unemployment, wage loss, GDP decrease, etc., would all be worse now and in the shorter term. which would mean that it would take longer to recover.
at the same time, increasing debt will also have effects, either pushing inflation and/or interest rates.
so the real question is whether or not the longer term costs of the stimulus funding outweigh the minimizing effect on the recession.
and right now, i think they won't.
Nickdfresh
06-20-2009, 07:11 PM
Question for ya...
I do not know if this is a factor in that drastic difference in money spent but...
Are your rates set for different injuries?
For example.
If you break your arm...does one clinic cost more than an other?
I know here...hospitals/doctors bill the gov according to set rates for different procedures...they can not just make up whatever amount the doctor sees fit.
I'm pretty sure HMOs here have different rates for different injuries, yes...
Nickdfresh
06-20-2009, 07:14 PM
This is America, where it will never get that cheap via socialized medicine. It is more likely to end up under Obama like GM with it costing 12k per person and Elvis' nurses union owning 55% of Blue Cross.
Not to mention, the words "Standard of Care" would be drastically different. What passes muster in another country will certainly not in this pampered country of ours.
Then how come Massachusetts and a few other states have managed to tackle healthcare with much success?
And why "can't" we? It's largely (but not only) the pharmaceutical companies that dictate drug prices and collude to some extent simply by paying off congress with their lobby. What if Medicare COULD bargain with the drug companies?
And spare us the "union" crap in this as it is such a nonissue...
Big Train
06-20-2009, 08:46 PM
The union stuff is a huge issue, but for purposes of responding to your specific request, I'll leave that out for now.
My home state has enforced such nonsense on it's citizenry. The land of welfare cars has had ok success with it and I'm sure it's gotten a few poor kids to the dentist and what not.
Massachusetts demographics and income per household is a drastically different story than say California. I don't see how you could apply an enforcement of this nature (the poor HAVE to buy in, it's required). In this state, where half the people are getting benefits without a decent taxable income base, the state can't even break even. Adding their heathcare bills into the equation makes even less sense.
If healthcare goes nationalized, what is the great benefit vs. what you would give up (i.e. individual choice, individual care options, layers of red tape for simple things, wait lists).
To me, nationalization is only worthwhile for price considerations. The question remains: Is that the most effective way to get costs under control? I don't believe so. I see it as a nuclear option and one that is being considered without weighing any alternatives at all (witness the White House informercial next week).
BITEYOASS
06-21-2009, 09:49 AM
Question for ya...
I do not know if this is a factor in that drastic difference in money spent but...
Are your rates set for different injuries?
For example.
If you break your arm...does one clinic cost more than an other?
I know here...hospitals/doctors bill the gov according to set rates for different procedures...they can not just make up whatever amount the doctor sees fit.
The reason for the difference is that the CEOs and owners who sit on their ass all day take half of what is spent on health care for their own use. Which consists of either salary, extra stock, lobbyists, bribes and/or campaign contributions to those in DC in order to keep the current status quo of american health care in existence.
Igosplut
06-21-2009, 10:42 AM
Then how come Massachusetts and a few other states have managed to tackle healthcare with much success?
Trains right on that. They FORCE you to get it, and if you don't they wack you on your income taxes. So there's a pile of people (mostly young) that can't afford the healthcare, but are basically losing any tax refund they might be getting back (I've been told it's like 400.00-600.00$ fine for tax brackets 30.000-40.000 for non-compliance) So for Deval-tax-it-all it's a win-win. He mandates compliance, keeping the levels high enough that if you can't afford it, he'll get your tax refund by sort-of default (Two guys told me MA attached his federal return to get the fine amount) The thinking was the young really don't need coverage, and they (that tax bracket) are better equipped to pay the fines (and less likely to organize formal complaints).
round 2 coming up: the commercial real estate implosion!
hideyoursheep
06-22-2009, 02:50 AM
So there's a pile of people (mostly young) that can't afford the healthcare, but are basically losing any tax refund they might be getting back.
What refund? :(
Nickdfresh
06-22-2009, 08:47 PM
Trains right on that. They FORCE you to get it, and if you don't they wack you on your income taxes. So there's a pile of people (mostly young) that can't afford the healthcare, but are basically losing any tax refund they might be getting back (I've been told it's like 400.00-600.00$ fine for tax brackets 30.000-40.000 for non-compliance) So for Deval-tax-it-all it's a win-win. He mandates compliance, keeping the levels high enough that if you can't afford it, he'll get your tax refund by sort-of default (Two guys told me MA attached his federal return to get the fine amount) The thinking was the young really don't need coverage, and they (that tax bracket) are better equipped to pay the fines (and less likely to organize formal complaints).
There's not perfect solution on the state level and they've done the best they can. But without a national Medicare like entity to force down coverage rates and the ability to bargain directly with drug companies for the lowest bidder, HMOs will keep things high...
The price goes up, not down, when government gets involved.
First they'll tack on adminstrative fees, then lobby for higher rates like the utilities do for whatever flavor of the month reason that month gives convenient.
Then they'll say, the private sector that pays full rate without asking is dropping off, so they need to cover for that as everyone with a brain will cheat on their forms to get in on it.
Then they'll say, oh the system doesnt work afterall and we need a makeover, so the taxpayer has to feed the paper losses on that claim too.
Fuck this. Do the math, be a man and pay the doctor cash instead of pussing out trying to justify why people "need" healthcare insurance!
This is not a problem. The problem is insurance and pharma corps having more say than the taxpayer.
Igosplut
06-23-2009, 05:57 AM
Fuck this. Do the math, be a man and pay the doctor cash instead of pussing out trying to justify why people "need" healthcare insurance!
Another statement by the coward that proves he doesn't inhabit the real world....
Nickdfresh
06-23-2009, 07:35 AM
The price goes up, not down, when government gets involved.
....
Then please explain why the US spends almost double on healthcare than any other country, including those with "sosh'yule'liyzed meddy'sun."
I know it must feel grate to ignore complete posts in a thread to make a completely false assertion. But try to keep up, ass-spunk...
Then please explain why the US spends almost double on healthcare than any other country, including those with "sosh'yule'liyzed meddy'sun."
I know it must feel grate to ignore complete posts in a thread to make a completely false assertion. But try to keep up, ass-spunk...
When healthcare started here...a lot of doctors threatened to move South...and some did.
They saw government regulating health care costs as costing them money.
So....the two edged blade.
On one hand...you let doctors, private clinics ect charge what ever they feel the majority will pay.
On the other you let government run it...when we all know that the fuckers can't even properly get a pot hole fixed.
I'll take what we have...we know government will waste or misspend...but greedy bastards will fuck you just as quick and most likely harder.
And....
If a Federal Government can not take care of it's people...then what good is it.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.