Gluing Tolex

[GAR]

Man have I had a bitch of a time glueing tolex. Any body do tolexing recently?

First off, they don't sell the original stuff at Home Depot anymore, Red Devil Rubber Contact Cement got bought out by some other brand, Weldwood, which proceeded to take all the good stuff out of it that gave one a fantastic kidney-aching fumebuzz as an after-effect that it just didn't bond very well.

So I redid a backboard on a 4x12 cab that was gettin a little ratty and ragged.. once I started peelin' just that board, I went a little cukoo and peeled and disassembled the whole damn thing.

So imagine my dilemna when I'm scouring the shelves and cannot find the glue.. I got an older vintage cabinet with all the parts sitting all over the place, the girlfriend is coming over later in the evening and she doesn't wanna see a mess.. I'm screwed!

I am literally screwed, because Los Angeles County decided to ban paints and glues with high odours and volatile organic content to it (VOC) over the counter..

Wel I wasn't gonna take that shit lying down now was I? So I remembered how the illegal aliens I had hired to redo the carpet in my downtown LA office had literally POURED rubber contact cement from a gallon can they poked holes into the lip with a nail, in a snaily-trail of these huge squirrelly "S"' shaped drips, right onto the original vinyl tile flooring from the early 19th centery and stuff..

That glue worked real well, so I decided to hit up a wholesale distribution flooring supply to find that stuff.. cost me $45 bucks but it worked initially, then as I brushed out the strips for the cabinet sides with the throwaway chip brush it started streaking with the drying gobs making bumps under the tolex.

But it looked good. So I decided to peel another cab down and redo it..

So it's on a Sunday, and that flooring supply place is closed.

I check with Home Depot again, it's been about a 5 years since I last looked for contact cement there maybe things had changed?

NOPE. That same shitty green labeled can is there on the shelf.. but checking the lable, it says "clean up is with water and or mineral spirits"?

This is news: water-based glue.. ingredients aren't latex rubber, but neoprene like in wetsuits material. I decide to try it.

So I'm laying out everything for the second cab, brushing out in one direction all the parts full of glue and I turn my back, the stuff flashed and the two pieces wouldn't stick together!

SHIT this doesn't happen with real rubber cement.. you got a long flash-time, within a half hour and it will still bond.

Directions on the waterbased stuff say "allow parts to dry up to 30 minutes, checking regularly until tacky." It also says if you blow it, you can just reapply more and try again.

Well, that's very forgiving! If you lose your window time with the rubber cement, you have to let it completely dry before starting over.

I managed to do the backing so-so, I had to get the hang of this water-based dry time. I also go tired of literally watching paint dry so to speak, waiting for the tackyness to set up.. you have to keep popping with your finger around the edges to see when it's ready to grab.

Another thing besides the long setup time, is you got about 3 minutes once it's ready, or it won't work.

Thirdly the label tells you to apply a LOT of pressure, such as a roller, a stack of weights or whatever - which you don't need to do with rubber cement.

Well, once I took all the junk off the back such as car batteries and chopped-off parking meter heads to weight down on it, it came together pretty good and I was able to better gauge a time range to do the whole cabinet strip which is about 117" inches, all the way around.

I brushed out the whole strip, then 2 sides of the cab.

Then, I laid the edge and two sides of the cab and pulled, beginning with that first corner edge then on down the first two sides. And while that dried, I brushed out the last two sides. And finished.

Let me tell you how to use this water based shit: it's all about the ambient temperature, and the dry time.

When I did the backboard, it was like 65 degrees out, cloudy and humid. I wasn't getting good dry time since it wasnt' evaporating.

But a few days later when I did the whole cabinet, it was 75 degrees and quite a different story altogether - the glue held down well, took edges and stretch round corners pretty tight without going slack and it stayed stuck down.

Bottom line, I was about to give the Weldwood neoprene waterbased glue the thubs down, but when it just got a bit warmer outside things were much different and I got decent results from it. And at 15 bucks a quart, you expect results.

Still nothing beats that harsh smelling rubber contact cement, and if you can't find it I thought I'd share it that it can be found - but you gotta buy from where the flooring installers buy.

Anybody ever recovered an amp or glued tolex before?

[jhale667]

Nope, haven't but in the spirit of all things Wiki-ness :hee:...found some recommendations for you here...:D

doing corners with tolex... - AMPAGE Archive (http://archive.ampage.org/threads/1/gadc/029596/doing_corners_with_tolex-1.html)

Tolex Tutorial - The Steel Guitar Forum (http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/008611.html)

DAP? Titebond? Could you ask what Mojo or some other cabinet-maker is using these days?

Chopped off parking meter heads? You a Parking Nazi in your day gig? :)

A friend of mine has an old, stripped Marshall 4x12 ala early VH...they look pretty cool, too...

[GAR]

Mojo is in North Carolina, according to their catalogue they sell a water-based neoprene contact cement which is probably formulated alot like the DAP's Weldwood brand currently on the shelf.

I don't like the peeled look myself..

Marshall 1975 Vintage 4x12 Cab from DLRoth 1986 Eat "em and Smile Tour (http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/msg/1214850362.html)

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj274/ammscray/marshall/DSC02096b.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj274/ammscray/marshall/DSC02097b.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj274/ammscray/marshall/DSC02098b.jpg

This guy wants $750 for an old peeled JCM800/900 he loaded with blackback 25's

[GAR]

The water-based stuff works after all, I thought it would all peel or fall off or get lumpy with air pockets.

The trick is it has to be hot, the hotter the better or it doesn't grab and you have to put weights down on it like those stolen parking meter heads.

You never stole parking meters back in your band days Jay? It just takes a 3" pipe cutter - a couple twists and they fall like dandelions into the shopping cart. Man we used to go down Sunset from Gardner to LaBrea almost..

[jhale667]

You never stole parking meters back in your band days Jay?


Nope. Not a thief, and never played with criminals or vandals, I guess.
Too much other stuff to do.

[Nitro Express]

When I was in the UK, I went to Marshall Amplification for a tour. It was actually Jim Marshall's son who gave the tour and he was sharing some of his early memories of going to the factory. He said the covering area stunk to high heaven because they used this stinky hot animal glue. I think Fender used the same stuff. Anyways he was all proud of the fact the new gluing process they were using didn't stink the whole place up like in the old days.

[Nitro Express]

Nope. Not a thief, and never played with criminals or vandals, I guess.
Too much other stuff to do.

Shit. I grew up in a mining town and we had some meters but I cringe what would happen to me if I got caught. It makes me cringe even more what my parents would do to me for doing such a thing. Political correctness was slow in coming to where I grew up. Vandalism usually resulted in some very shitty payback like having to work off and pay for the damage you did or bust your ass cleaning up the mess with additional fines and jail time. Not to mention your reputation in the community would be toast and your family would usually give you more shit that the community. No way would I even consider doing such a thing.

[jhale667]

"Animal Glue" just sounds wrong....:biggrin:

Yeah, couldn't ever steal...to much leftover Catholic guilt..:D

Dunno...that cab looks kinda cool, but isn't that price steep for what it is...?

[kwame k]

Shit. I grew up in a mining town and we had some meters but I cringe what would happen to me if I got caught. It makes me cringe even more what my parents would do to me for doing such a thing. Political correctness was slow in coming to where I grew up. Vandalism usually resulted in some very shitty payback like having to work off and pay for the damage you did or bust your ass cleaning up the mess with additional fines and jail time. Not to mention your reputation in the community would be toast and your family would usually give you more shit that the community. No way would I even consider doing such a thing.
Was raised the same way. We were more scared of what our parents would do to us than the cops.

[GAR]

"Animal Glue" just sounds wrong...

No, it's what they used in the older days, and animal glue was both cheap, organic and worked really well.

You can see it prevalent in the white goopy drips on the insides of cabs from that period.


Aliphatic resin (yellow woodworkers glue) however is better because animal glue that didn't contain formaldehyde could detach easy when it gets wet.

Thats why when you see those older 60s-70s cabinets in vintage shops you can see the plies and the finger joints ripple underneath the tolex, since it swells and becomes a moving joint after awhile.

The modern cabs using the modern glue, it gets wet and the bond is moisture resistant. not impervious to water, but hold the joint together well even in wet weather. It is better than the animal glue.

[Nitro Express]

Was raised the same way. We were more scared of what our parents would do to us than the cops.

The worst thing you could be in my family was be a thief. It didn't matter if it was a cheap piece of candy or an automobile. It was stealing. Yeah. If the cops were nice, they wouldn't tell your parents because they knew you really would catch hell then.

[kwame k]

The worst thing you could be in my family was be a thief. It didn't matter if it was a cheap piece of candy or an automobile. It was stealing. Yeah. If the cops were nice, they wouldn't tell your parents because they knew you really would catch hell then.

Totally, my parents owned a grocery store and stealing wasn't something that was acceptable. I agree with the cops thing. My friend was caught drunk, by the cops and he begged them to take him to jail but they refused and called his dad. They figured that he would catch hell and it would teach him a lesson. They were right!

[GAR]

The worst thing you could be in my family was be a thief.

On a Saturday nite in Hollywood, we valued our drinks more than the criminal city-syndicate that tows your cars so we said "fukkum" and took meters to fuel the bar at the Rainbow.

It's probably nice having a family, but I wouldn't have known that. So punishment was delivered upon the meters, we drilled 1/4" holes in the side of the face, tapped the lock tabs down with a hammer and phillips screwdriver and out popped a little can with coins in it!

It's alot like Christmastime, only mounted on a steel stick in the early evening disguised as a piggy bank someone left for the person with a Rigid pipe cutter which cost $20 bucks from a pawn shop in Baldwin Park, but paid out far and above that investment.

I guess if you can't do the crime if you can't do the time, no-oo-ooh noo. Don't do it!

[Nitro Express]

On a Saturday nite in Hollywood, we valued our drinks more than the criminal city-syndicate that tows your cars so we said "fukkum" and took meters to fuel the bar at the Rainbow.

It's probably nice having a family, but I wouldn't have known that. So punishment was delivered upon the meters, we drilled 1/4" holes in the side of the face, tapped the lock tabs down with a hammer and phillips screwdriver and out popped a little can with coins in it!

It's alot like Christmastime, only mounted on a steel stick in the early evening disguised as a piggy bank someone left for the person with a Rigid pipe cutter which cost $20 bucks from a pawn shop in Baldwin Park, but paid out far and above that investment.

I guess if you can't do the crime if you can't do the time, no-oo-ooh noo. Don't do it!

You wouldn't have gotten away with it in Butte, Montana. This is the place where the citizens beat the shit out of a gang of Hells Angels and dumped them off at the city dump after they sheered and sheep dipped the mother fuckers and the police just watched it happen.

[GAR]

Am I heard as saying what I did was wrong? Let me be totally clear: it was wrong to go drinking on Parking Enforcement's tab, but eh, fuck'em.

If you lived here, got your car towed, you'd know my protest lays some kind of balance to it all however I'm not saying it's the correct thing to do.

I was invoking the Laws of Damage.

[jhale667]

No, you were being a vandal and a criminal, shocker.
I do live here; and have never done anything so stupid...


But back on topic, as cab restoration is actually interesting...

[rustoffa]

I wish I had bought a Silvertone cab I found @ Galaxy that was covered in truck bed liner. You could always bust out the fine sandpaper & minwax.

who finished a cabinet with paint instead of tolex/tweed/leather? - Telecaster Guitar Forum (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-central-station/86050-who-finished-cabinet-paint-instead-tolex-tweed-leather.html)

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb138/jaydawg76/8ab6_3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/cabs/uv-cab2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/cabs/trem2x10.jpg

[Diamondjimi]

That's some cool shit,right there!

[GAR]

Remember a local band "slumlord" their ads logo was a cockroach smokin a joint?

One of these cabs had metamorphosated thru a number of spray-painted color changes. It had been white, then red, dark blue, and back to black again.

The grille was fine.

I took that grille, bought a used JCM900 with perfect tolex, stuck that good grille from the Slumlord cab and flipped it with a mixed pair of repaired Celestion 75's, and a pair of Carvin British 12's.

It sounded okay, I didn't like it.. flipped it got my money out of it plus the better sounding 75's and I robbed the JCM tag, the better-conditioned backboard and the dual-input jackplate by substituting an aluminum square scrap painted black. Buyer didn't even notice the single jackplate.

(btw I noticed there are 4 series of 75's made over the years and IMO the first series with the halfblack labels, and the dash-4 or series 4 sound really really good but we'll get to the corksniffing bullshit on that later)

Okay, so I am still down to the ugly painted backboard and shell of the Slumlord cab.. came with G12-65's which are not my favorite but a great deal at $200.

I figured out sitting with this thing on the porch, that the paint had to come off while leaving the tolex intact, which wasn't going to be easy.

So there we sat, me and it, I and the ugly shitblock having coffee while trying to meditate on the back porch listening to Mel Gibson screaming again at his new fiancee. At this point, I do not know what I am doing, but Mama has been saying this for years. Now I know what she means.

I have become: transformed, enlightened, inquisitive.. oh and i have to take a shit because it's 11am and the cool ocean breeze is chilling my grossly enlarged coffee soaked gullet so I'm farting at the same time and there it dawned on me I am now the Tolex Whisperer.

"Speak to me ::pfffft:: tell me how to clean you ::bfffft-brrrpppt:: what must I ::fffuddffftt:: do to heal your graffittoeied state?"

And I swear it talked to me, not in word but in images.

I saw: acetone, lacquer thinner, yellow wood glue, and masking tape. I saw: honing and drawing its hide, me, there, standing with putty knives dripping solvents and getting superhigh while some fucker who thinks he can surf mouths incomprehensible questions on the project. He receives the you-go-fuckoffnow-smile. I keep scraping.

All these chemicals are sitting in the sunlight, and in my bloodstream and on my brain but I keep scraping - first the cab shell, then the backboard.

It comes off first like layers of cake frosting with the acetone. What that does is melt the paint layers really quick and then flashes off really quick, without damaging the tolex.

I got a pretty fair technique down after a while, a rhythm you might say of it: first, pouring a 16" drip line straight off the quart on to the back board, second a smearing of it while the paint softens up and wrinkles in ribbons like the melted 1" recording tape from the last bonfire.. third, before it dries and is still soft, I pull the 4" wide angled putty knife I've bent into a slight "c" shape using the curved edge and grabbing it by the tip and the handle pull straight literally carving the paint right off it. Then repeating the process dozens of times.

It was interesting. Different band names started coming up from under the paint layers.. "speak to me" I begged of it ".. where have you been? What musics have you annoyed others with? Who had used and abused you?"

I felt like a Guitarcheologist even though I am now but a Tolex Whisperer.

[GAR]

Once the scraping was finished in acetone, I used the lacquer thinner to wipe it all down trying to detail-out the hidelike grain, but not all the paint comes out.

It holds some pigments like a stain. It looks dark greyish in some places and in others it looks perfect. "Look" I show my chick, Lefty "this whole fucking bag of paint came off that last cabinet." In weight, it was probably a half-pound but that's wet weight from the added thinners. In size, envision about one and a quarter gallon of scrapings - that's alot of paint.

I guess Slumlord were the first to own it, that was the oldest logo painted on so it took a bit of detailing to get the last of the white out of the elephant-grain.

After gluing down the little dogears and tear flaps with the yellow glue and masking tape to hold it, I came back a day later removing the tape pieces and sanded it down by hand with a little dull 100 grit sandpaper.

Then, the plastic corners get taped off, the white piping too, and it gets sprayed back to black: first with the cheap 99 cent Home Depot flat black just for color.

That dries for 3hours, I've found that solvent isn't compatible with good paint over it so it needs to dry well before the final coat is complete..

The cheap flat just gets "dusted" on, very lightly to prepare for the Krylon semigloss black.

This stuff is over 4 bucks a can, and with the wind going it'll eat two cans so I save the best for last. I lay it out on the neighbors' patio driveway (because why mark up mine with the overspray) and move in crisscross fashion: first, side-to-side motions, then slowly straight up and down.

The side-side motion pretty much fills in the semigloss, but you get shadows from the spray width. So instead of going again in that direction and getting heavy (and filling in the elephant grain now exposed) its best to just go lite to make the sheen even, like the original tolex used to be.

I cram that JCM900 grill in it with some other mismatched Celestions and the new owner is a happy camper!

So the moral of the story is: Can you paint your cabinets, yes, but it takes work and the results looks like shit. Can you remove paint off painted cabinets and restore it, yes but you have a big mess on your hands and the for the effort you may as well retolex it.

But if you don't mind the mess, here's the breakdown:

Time - breakdown/reassembly, 6 hours
- scraping with solvents, 3 hours
- recoloring over thinner stains, 2 hours

Cost - glue, tape, thinners: 19.00

Result - 1to5 scale, 1 being the shit before condition 5 being brand-new, probably a 3

[GAR]

oh add the paint duhh.. 6, total 25 bucks

[Igosplut]

More feats of memory that are impossible GARgle.

How very convenient it is for you to knock other peoples gear and one-up everybody with your vast knowledge when you "CAN'T" post ANYTHING that you own or do....

The funny thing is, is that the things that you have positively proven (about yourself, harassing a soldiers mother,egging on suicide, Advocating child abuse, being called out for wrong/copied info, ect) over the years, is what we DO positively know about you. We,ve all seen it...

So no Gar, you don't have to post anything. You've already proved who you are.....And it isn't good at all....

[kwame k]

Oh, but he has you on ignore;)

[GAR]

I think the reason guys get into doing clear and stained finishes, is they just don't understand how to get good results when tolexing.

Cabs look nice finished, but that first ding hits or scrapes it and you get pissed.

Tolexing comes from the luggage days, it keeps moisture off the wood. It is easily repaired by gluing down the flaps, you can reglue patches cut from excess inside the cab and then it looks fine.

But the modern Marshall glue used today is far inferior to what they used in the past, it is stickey, never dries, and in fact releases the vinyl covering easily.

You can almost pick it off with your fingernail, and in a hot van it moves as if it's just tacked on at the edges.

[Diamondjimi]

Uh,Gar....

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/6/16/633492346461806528-no-one-cares.jpg

[indeedido]

You can almost pick it off with your fingernail, and in a hot van it moves as if it's just tacked on at the edges.

Is that in your van down by the river?:hee:

[GAR]

adding you to ignore list, dickhead

[LoungeMachine]

adding you to ignore list, dickhead

:lmao:

Easier than having to deal with the truth, huh?

[jhale667]

:lmao:

[Nitro Express]

More feats of memory that are impossible GARgle.

How very convenient it is for you to knock other peoples gear and one-up everybody with your vast knowledge when you "CAN'T" post ANYTHING that you own or do....

The funny thing is, is that the things that you have positively proven (about yourself, harassing a soldiers mother,egging on suicide, Advocating child abuse, being called out for wrong/copied info, ect) over the years, is what we DO positively know about you. We,ve all seen it...

So no Gar, you don't have to post anything. You've already proved who you are.....And it isn't good at all....

You forgot to add stealing parking meters and spending the stolen loot at the Rainbow Bar and Grill. At least Robin Hood would have given the money to the hungry and poor. Gar got drunk on it.:biggrin:

[GAR]

Hollywood musicians ARE the hungry and the poor, indosymbiant.

[indeedido]

Please don't ignore me. Oh please. I must have your attention.....Fuck You.

[jhale667]

Hollywood musicians ARE the hungry and the poor, indosymbiant.

Perhaps, but in addition to being a criminal, you still looked like an idiot paying for stuff in change... :lmao:

[GAR]

That would be true, if my singer and I hadn't already minted all them quarters for $20's beforehand at the liquor store on Doheny.

duhhh..

[Diamondjimi]

That would be true, if my singer and I hadn't already minted all them quarters for $20's beforehand at the liquor store on Doheny.

duhhh..

I smell bullshit.... More like you and your "singer" nursed a pail of draught all night that you paid for in nickles WITHOUT tipping your waitress...

[Igosplut]

I smell bullshit....

More like the bullshit piled up, then climbed the walls, flowed across the ceiling, and is now falling in great clumps on our heads.....

[jhale667]

So lemme guess...you were in one of those bands in the day that thought showering regularly made you less "rock", too...y'know, based on your disdain for polished instruments...or activities that might lead to getting your instrument polished...:lol:

[GAR]

The Aquanet doesn't pile up well to greasy hair. Cmon you should know that and by the look of those forlorn eyesockets you're no stranger to Gil Turner's neither.

[indeedido]

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p301/indeedido/toolbox.jpg

[letsrock]

You wouldn't have gotten away with it in Butte, Montana. This is the place where the citizens beat the shit out of a gang of Hells Angels and dumped them off at the city dump after they sheered and sheep dipped the mother fuckers and the police just watched it happen.

Link?

[letsrock]

Nitro,

I'm not calling you out, just interested in reading about the incident.
Curiosity is all.

John

[ELVIS]

I guess if you can't do the crime if you can't do the time.

I like you, Gar, but why do your long technical posts read like a professional and educated person wrote them, but you post something like the above quote, quite often...

I'm fair at spelling and I make mistakes, but I generally post my stuff without Spell Check or proof reading my posts...

Just curious...


:elvis:

[GAR]

Look E, I share what I can.

Aside from that, this after all *is* a casual dialogue board so if you can have a laugh at how me and the boys used to have fun, enjoy.

Elvis = grate mate
Igosplut = hate wig prostitute protester /ignore him

[letsrock]

Wikipedia

[Nitro Express]

Nitro,

I'm not calling you out, just interested in reading about the incident.
Curiosity is all.

John

It happened in the early 1970's when I was just a little kid. Apparently some bikers were kicked out of one of the local bars and told they weren't welcome and they threatened to come back and tear the whole town apart. I was eating at a resturaunt with my parents and when we walked out onto the sidewalk was a policeman and he told my dad there was going to be trouble and to get us home. There were several police officers going down the street going into the bars like they were looking for people. Then there were all these cowboy rancher type people pulling chains across the street. Some were on horses.

Then we heard the big V-Twins rumbling in the distance and they were getting closer. Then they were coming down the street and the ranchers pulled the chains tight and knocked these bikers off their bikes. There were a ton of bikers and these cowboy types.

The cowboys sheared the hair off the bikers and tossed them into big vats of sheep dip. The ones who ran on foot were roped with lariets and handled like livestock. It was a rodeo but the bikers were the livestock.

Later we heard the bikers and bikes were dumped off at the city dump and told never to come back again. They never did. One biker when he got up pulled a big knife and they just roped him and dragged him.

We were watching it all happen and the police being outnumbered pretty much let the cowboys take care of business because they had the situation in hand. All I know is you don't mess with Montana cowboys because they fucked this group of bikers up badly.

[letsrock]

Thanks that must of been amazing.

[GAR]

.. and amusing.

[jhale667]

From the Premier Guitar Boogie factory tour...

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[GAR]

Even more than amusing - this is that a& r guy!