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Seshmeister
06-28-2009, 06:47 PM
The Associated Press: AP IMPACT: $2.5B spent, no alternative med cures (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iVzCMf2-0G5bmxm0XCQdbHOS5gjwD98NU5FO0)

AP IMPACT: $2.5B spent, no alternative med cures

By MARILYNN MARCHIONE – Jun 10, 2009

BETHESDA, Md. (AP) — Ten years ago the government set out to test herbal and other alternative health remedies to find the ones that work. After spending $2.5 billion, the disappointing answer seems to be that almost none of them do.

Echinacea for colds. Ginkgo biloba for memory. Glucosamine and chondroitin for arthritis. Black cohosh for menopausal hot flashes. Saw palmetto for prostate problems. Shark cartilage for cancer. All proved no better than dummy pills in big studies funded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. The lone exception: ginger capsules may help chemotherapy nausea.

As for therapies, acupuncture has been shown to help certain conditions, and yoga, massage, meditation and other relaxation methods may relieve symptoms like pain, anxiety and fatigue.

However, the government also is funding studies of purported energy fields, distance healing and other approaches that have little if any biological plausibility or scientific evidence.

Taxpayers are bankrolling studies of whether pressing various spots on your head can help with weight loss, whether brain waves emitted from a special "master" can help break cocaine addiction, and whether wearing magnets can help the painful wrist problem, carpal tunnel syndrome.

The acupressure weight-loss technique won a $2 million grant even though a small trial of it on 60 people found no statistically significant benefit — only an encouraging trend that could have occurred by chance. The researcher says the pilot study was just to see if the technique was feasible.

"You expect scientific thinking" at a federal science agency, said R. Barker Bausell, author of "Snake Oil Science" and a research methods expert at the University of Maryland, one of the agency's top-funded research sites. "It's become politically correct to investigate nonsense."

Many scientists say that unconventional treatments hold promise and deserve serious study, but that the federal center needs to be more skeptical and selective.

"There's not all the money in the world and you have to choose" what most deserves tax support, said Barrie Cassileth, integrative medicine chief at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York.

"Many of the studies that have been funded I would not have funded because they seem irrational and foolish — studies on distant healing by prayer and energy healing, studies that are based on precepts and ideas that are contrary to what is known in terms of human physiology and disease," she said.

In an interview last year, shortly after becoming the federal center's new director, Dr. Josephine Briggs said it had a strong research record, and praised the many "big name" scientists who had sought its grants. She conceded there were no big wins from its first decade, other than a study that found acupuncture helped knee arthritis. That finding was called into question when a later, larger study found that sham treatment worked just as well.

"The initial studies were driven by some very strong enthusiasms, and now we're learning about how to layer evidence" and to do more basic science before testing a particular supplement in a large trial, said Briggs, who trained at Ivy League schools and has a respected scientific career.

"There are a lot of negative studies in conventional medicine," and the government's outlay is small compared to drug company spending, she added.

However, critics say that unlike private companies that face bottom-line pressure to abandon a drug that flops, the federal center is reluctant to admit a supplement may lack merit — despite a strategic plan pledging not to equivocate in the face of negative findings.

Echinacea is an example. After a large study by a top virologist found it didn't help colds, its fans said the wrong one of the plant's nine species had been tested. Federal officials agreed that more research was needed, even though they had approved the type used in the study.

"There's been a deliberate policy of never saying something doesn't work. It's as though you can only speak in one direction," and say a different version or dose might give different results, said Dr. Stephen Barrett, a retired physician who runs Quackwatch, a web site on medical scams.

Critics also say the federal center's research agenda is shaped by an advisory board loaded with alternative medicine practitioners. They account for at least nine of the board's 18 members, as required by its government charter. Many studies they approve for funding are done by alternative therapy providers; grants have gone to board members, too.

"It's the fox guarding the chicken coop," said Dr. Joseph Jacobs, who headed the Office of Alternative Medicine, a smaller federal agency that preceded the center's creation. "This is not science, it's ideology on the part of the advocates."

Briggs defended their involvement.

"If you're going to do a study on acupuncture, you're going to need acupuncture expertise," she said. These therapists "are very much believers in what they do," not unlike gastroenterologists doing a study of colonoscopy, and good study design can guard against bias, she said.

The center was handed a flawed mission, many scientists say.

Congress created it after several powerful members claimed health benefits from their own use of alternative medicine and persuaded others that this enormously popular field needed more study. The new center was given $50 million in 1999 (its budget was $122 million last year) and ordered to research unconventional therapies and nostrums that Americans were using to see which ones had merit.

That is opposite how other National Institutes of Health agencies work, where scientific evidence or at least plausibility is required to justify studies, and treatments go into wide use after there is evidence they work — not before.

"There's very little basic science behind these things. Most of it begins with a tradition, or personal testimony and people's beliefs, even as a fad. And then pressure comes: 'It's being popular, it's being used, it should be studied.' It turns things upside down," said Dr. Edward Campion, a senior editor who reviews alternative medicine research submitted to the New England Journal of Medicine.

That reasoning was used to justify the $2 million weight-loss study, approved in 2007. It will test Tapas acupressure, devised by Tapas Fleming, a California acupuncturist. Use of her trademarked method requires employing people she certifies, and the study needs eight.

It involves pressing on specific points on the face and head — the inner corners of the eyes are two — while focusing on a problem. Dr. Charles Elder, a Kaiser Permanente physician who runs an herbal and ayurvedic medicine clinic in Portland, Ore., is testing whether it can prevent dieters from regaining lost weight.

Say a person comes home and is tempted by Twinkies on the table. The solution: Start acupressure "and say something like 'I have an uncontrollable Twinkie urge,'" Elder said. Then focus on an opposite thought, like "I'm in control of my eating."

In Chinese medicine, the pressure is said to release natural energy in a place in the body "responsible for transforming animal desire into higher thoughts," Elder said.

In a federally funded pilot study, 30 dieters who were taught acupressure regained only half a pound six months later, compared with over three pounds for a comparison group of 30 others. However, the study widely missed a key scientific standard for showing that results were not a statistical fluke.

The pilot trial was just to see if the technique was feasible, Elder said. The results were good enough for the federal center to grant $2.1 million for a bigger study in 500 people that is under way now.

Alternative medicine research also is complicated by the subjective nature of many of the things being studied. Pain, memory, cravings, anxiety and fatigue are symptoms that people tolerate and experience in widely different ways.

Take a question like, "Does yoga work for back pain?" said Margaret Chesney, a psychologist who is associate director of the federally funded Center for Integrative Medicine at the University of Maryland.

"What kind of yoga? What kind of back pain?" And what does it mean to "work" — to help someone avoid surgery, hold a job or need less medication?

Some things — the body meridians that acupuncturists say they follow, or energy forces that healers say they manipulate — cannot be measured, and many scientists question their existence.

Studying herbals is tough because they are not standardized as prescription drugs are required to be. One brand might contain a plant's flowers, another its seeds and another, stems and leaves, in varying amounts.

There are 150 makers of black cohosh "and probably no two are exactly the same, and probably some people are putting sawdust in capsules and selling it," said Norman Farnsworth, a federally funded herbal medicine researcher at the University of Illinois at Chicago.

Even after a careful study, "you know one thing more precise and firm about what that agent did in that population with that outcome measurement, but you don't necessarily know the whole gamut of its effectiveness," as the echinacea study showed, Briggs said.

The center posts information on supplements and treatments on its Web site, and has a phone line for the public to ask questions — even when the answer is that not enough is known to rule in or rule out benefit or harm.

"I hope we are building knowledge and at least an informed consumer," Briggs said.

Seshmeister
06-28-2009, 06:47 PM
Time for Oprah to shut her fat fucking face the fuck up.

The name used for alternative medicine that works is medicine.

Dolemite!
06-28-2009, 07:26 PM
"Congress created it after several powerful members claimed health benefits from their own use of alternative medicine..."

If there's one thing I've learned is that being a university grad hardly makes you intelligent and knowledgable. More like it indoctrinates you into a certain way of doing and looking at things. Perhaps those scientists who tested this are unqualified in the area. In any case they wouldn't have an understanding of these natural medicines that many tribal groups out there have. According to EVH he cured cancer by some unconventional drug illegal in the states. I've read many people speaking of the use of hemp oil in curing cancer. And yes, the cure, any cure is played in part by the placebo effect because your mind plays an important role in wellness.

Dolemite!
06-28-2009, 07:29 PM
But I certainly agree this is money wasted. They could have instead taken a trip to visit native indian tribes or shamans in Peru and take an understanding directly from people who know what they're doing.

Big Train
06-28-2009, 08:05 PM
It isn't money wasted, if it rules these things out as potential cures. The real problem is that it never should have cost 2.5 Billion in the first place.

Nickdfresh
06-28-2009, 08:39 PM
Did I actually just agree with Big Train? Yes, there is a lot of New Age shenanigans and hokery that go on with this stuff. But there is some value even indicated in the article. I too resent the idiotic belief that somehow the "Orient" of the East holds some sort of ancient secret wisdom and medical cure-alls. But that doesn't mean that homeopathy is useless or irrelevant...

hideyoursheep
06-28-2009, 08:39 PM
2.5 bil?

Is that all?

Big Train
06-28-2009, 09:30 PM
Did I actually just agree with Big Train? Yes, there is a lot of New Age shenanigans and hokery that go on with this stuff. But there is some value even indicated in the article. I too resent the idiotic belief that somehow the "Orient" of the East holds some sort of ancient secret wisdom and medical cure-alls. But that doesn't mean that homeopathy is useless or irrelevant...

It's possible, we believe in a lot of the same principles. Methods on getting there, not so much.

Penn and Teller should just be in charge of all this stuff. They could do for 5 seasons worth of material. Paying them top dollar, $100 million, done.

Blackflag
07-07-2009, 12:35 AM
It isn't money wasted, if it rules these things out as potential cures. The real problem is that it never should have cost 2.5 Billion in the first place.

Dude...how about we spend money to find things that ARE cures...not to find out what things AREN'T cures? Give me $100 and I'll give you a long list of shit that AREN'T cures. Fuck, I think that's the easier task.

ELVIS
07-07-2009, 12:36 AM
Shove a mobile phone up yer ass!

I did a study and it's proven to help prostate cancer, keeps you from getting too many dicks up your ass and keeps dickheads like you away from good websites like this!!!


I should post this on your website, ASSHOLE!!


:elvis:

ELVIS
07-07-2009, 12:50 AM
BTW, Permixon which is a refined prescription of Saw Palmetto has shown to reduce the size of the prostate...

Glucosamine can be effective as it's a required nutrient to produce glycosaminoglycan, a molecule used in the formation cartilage...

Both if used with mobile phones in the manner described above can cause constipation...



The center was handed a flawed mission, many scientists say.

I don't trust big pharma one bit...

Next we will hear that asprin is not effective and you gotta take their new version that causes liver failure and costs $300 a month...


:elvis:

FORD
07-07-2009, 01:40 AM
I don't trust big pharma one bit...

Next we will hear that asprin is not effective and you gotta take their new version that causes liver failure and costs $300 a month...


:elvis:

They already have something like that. It's called Plavix, and I'm trying to get my mom off that shit :(

Nothing but aspirin with bad side effects. What's the point?

ELVIS
07-07-2009, 02:06 AM
To make you sick so they can talk you into something else to buy and make you sicker...

I'm getting out of healthcare. I'm disillusioned with it. It's not the same field I studied 20 years ago...

ELVIS
07-07-2009, 02:09 AM
Plavix (http://www.plavixinjurylawyer.com/)

Big Train
07-07-2009, 02:51 AM
Dude...how about we spend money to find things that ARE cures...not to find out what things AREN'T cures? Give me $100 and I'll give you a long list of shit that AREN'T cures. Fuck, I think that's the easier task.

Dude....removing all doubt about things that have some potential benefits, finding out what they cure or have an effect on, is helping to find a cure, as it narrows the focus to what might actually be the cure. I'd gladly see 100 mil spent rather than 2.5 Billion spent to get an actual scientific opinion. Your "jimmy the greek" 100 picks aren't gonna do it.

FORD
07-07-2009, 04:01 AM
BTW, Permixon which is a refined prescription of Saw Palmetto has shown to reduce the size of the prostate...



So why not just take saw palmetto then? Or this "beta-prostate" stuff that all the guys on talk radio are selling (at least the Liberal guys. Hartmann, Malloy, Ron Reagan Jr. and Ed Schultz. ) which is based on saw palmetto and other natural ingredients.

I have to watch my blood pressure. Some of its hereditary factors, some of it is eating too much processed food loaded with sodium, and gradually cutting back on caffeine in recent years from my old routine of slamming about 2 pots of coffee in the morning, and then averaging about a 6 pack of coke over the course of the rest of the day.

Tried a prescription pill for it. Tried natural supplements. Turns out the natural stuff worked a lot better. So does having Chimpy out of the White House, for that matter. ;)

ELVIS
07-07-2009, 04:29 AM
I know about beta-Prostate but i've never met anyone on it...

I've seen plain Saw Palmetto on some mens medication lists who are in their 80's or 90's...

You need the proper amounts of spring water to replace the coffee and soda...

One cup of coffee is fine and alcohol in moderation, if you're not an alcoholic...

That and you need to exercise...at least walk as close as you can get to three miles a day at various rates...carrying some hand weights to play with is good as well...

Those things regardless of diet will bring your pressure down...diet will help on top of that...

That'll be $60


:elvis:

sadaist
07-07-2009, 05:19 AM
The lone exception: ginger capsules may help chemotherapy nausea.


It's been long known that a can of Ginger Ale fixes upset tummys. Tastes pretty damn good too. Better than a capsule. As far as the other stuff, no clue. I know ginseng does act like caffeine. One of those SoBe triple ginseng bottles and I'm zingin' for a few hours.

sadaist
07-07-2009, 05:23 AM
I have to watch my blood pressure.

Tried a prescription pill for it. Tried natural supplements. Turns out the natural stuff worked a lot better.

Did you ever try the natural stuff when you were having insomnia issues? All I've done is the Sleepy Time tea. But I think the reason it helps me is just relaxing late night sipping a cup of hot tea.

ULTRAMAN VH
07-07-2009, 07:17 AM
The big spending on ridiculous issues, should be no surprise. The government continues and will continue this effort till the end of time. Just look at the stimulus package. And there are rumors another stimulus bill is in the works. If anyone gets the chance, read The China Study. It really clears up a lot of issues on health and nutrition. What we eat is a huge factor in our health and well being. If you are using the government as a compass to better health, I also have two all inclusive tickets for a cruise on The Titanic.

Seshmeister
07-07-2009, 07:24 AM
Did I actually just agree with Big Train? Yes, there is a lot of New Age shenanigans and hokery that go on with this stuff. But there is some value even indicated in the article. I too resent the idiotic belief that somehow the "Orient" of the East holds some sort of ancient secret wisdom and medical cure-alls. But that doesn't mean that homeopathy is useless or irrelevant...

No homeopathy is useless and irrelevant because it is utter utter bullshit based on completely disproved non science from the 1800s.

FORD
07-07-2009, 01:41 PM
Did you ever try the natural stuff when you were having insomnia issues? All I've done is the Sleepy Time tea. But I think the reason it helps me is just relaxing late night sipping a cup of hot tea.

I've tried various kind of herbal teas.... Sleepy Time, chamomile, catnip... also have tried various herbal supplements like valerian root, etc. Some of them have worked to some extent, but I think your body builds a tolerance just like it would with any chemical drug. Also, when I was drinking the catnip tea, I noticed an increase of feline traffic in the neighborhood. Obviously the critters smelled it brewing and they were looking to score a hit for themselves. I considered dealing, but unfortunately cats don't carry cash.

standin
07-07-2009, 02:49 PM
I believe and know some of it works to some extent, but because it is unregulated there is a lot of fraudulent activity. Had it not be for B12 I would be dead. And what most likely (no data for documentation) kept me as well for so long, was the supplements and weird stuff like sea weed and algae I used to eat.

Blackflag
07-07-2009, 03:03 PM
Dude....removing all doubt about things that have some potential benefits, finding out what they cure or have an effect on, is helping to find a cure, as it narrows the focus to what might actually be the cure. I'd gladly see 100 mil spent rather than 2.5 Billion spent to get an actual scientific opinion. Your "jimmy the greek" 100 picks aren't gonna do it.

Dude, are you telling me that if you spent X dollars on research, you'd rather have a proven 'no cure' than an actual 'cure' for something? Of course not.

$2.5B could have been a cure for some disease. End of story.

ULTRAMAN VH
07-07-2009, 03:26 PM
I've tried various kind of herbal teas.... Sleepy Time, chamomile, catnip... also have tried various herbal supplements like valerian root, etc. Some of them have worked to some extent, but I think your body builds a tolerance just like it would with any chemical drug. Also, when I was drinking the catnip tea, I noticed an increase of feline traffic in the neighborhood. Obviously the critters smelled it brewing and they were looking to score a hit for themselves. I considered dealing, but unfortunately cats don't carry cash.

Okay you damn libby, I got a laugh out of that one.:lmao:

Seshmeister
07-07-2009, 03:49 PM
Dude, are you telling me that if you spent X dollars on research, you'd rather have a proven 'no cure' than an actual 'cure' for something? Of course not.

$2.5B could have been a cure for some disease. End of story.

Exactly - its a great idea to spend money on good research but don't give it to these idiotic alternative 'medicine' people because it is bound to be a complete waste of cash.

If Oprah and her pals want to promote this fucking crap they can pay for the research themselves.

Of course that would be like turkeys voting for Xmas.

Big Train
07-08-2009, 07:22 PM
Dude, are you telling me that if you spent X dollars on research, you'd rather have a proven 'no cure' than an actual 'cure' for something? Of course not.

$2.5B could have been a cure for some disease. End of story.

Totally Dude,

People have thrown hundreds of billions at diseases with no positive outcome. While I would love to know the cure to any number of diseases throwing x amount of money is no guarantee of anything.

If you rule out the a certain potential cure, you are also ruling out all of it's underlying compounds, which is in essence ruling tens to hundreds of potential avenues, which brings you to a cure quicker.

The price tag though should have been at least 2 Billion less than what it was.

Blackflag
07-08-2009, 07:47 PM
Using that logic, we should never research cures for diseases. Success is never guaranteed.

We should only research things that are not cures for diseases. That way we're guaranteed a result [a useless one].

In fact, we should stop researching solutions for anything... we should only look for non-solutions. We can spend millions on figuring out how not to go to Mars, and how not to reduce pollution... If the goal is failure...it's easy to succeed!


Why do I feel like we're discussing the plot of a bad 80's movie?

ZahZoo
07-09-2009, 09:34 AM
No homeopathy is useless and irrelevant because it is utter utter bullshit based on completely disproved non science from the 1800s.

Quite true to an extent...

I believe many natural things being marketed today can provide some benefit or relief from certain ailments. But clearly aren't the "wonder-drug" that people are led to believe in the marketing hype.

Problem is the mindset humans have developed... with the advent of antibiotics, vacinations and certain drug treatments... people believe a shot or a few pills can cure what ails them in short order.

Research may show that for example saw-palemento (sp?) may help reduce an enlarged prostrate. Studies may have shown a measureable reduction of prostrate problems in people who ingested this stuff naturally in a regular diet. Quack scientists/marketing fools then package up refined concentrated versions of this crap and sell it to fools who's nutsacks are already rittled with cancer. There-in lies the bullshit.

On the other hand... you'd probably be better off drinking some hot tea with honey and a snort of whiskey to treat cold symptoms. It's no more or less effective than most over the counter cold drugs and won't give you added side effects from some chemical concoction. It'll just sooth and relax the symptoms while your immune system battles the virus...

Big Train
07-09-2009, 11:06 AM
Using that logic, we should never research cures for diseases. Success is never guaranteed.

We should only research things that are not cures for diseases. That way we're guaranteed a result [a useless one].

In fact, we should stop researching solutions for anything... we should only look for non-solutions. We can spend millions on figuring out how not to go to Mars, and how not to reduce pollution... If the goal is failure...it's easy to succeed!


Why do I feel like we're discussing the plot of a bad 80's movie?

Some strange logic there yourself. Pick ANY major disease, this is the process they use, it's called (clinical) trial and error. Think of the hundreds of billions of dollars they have thrown at anything. Jerry Lewis has spent his entire life pouring money into a cure. This is the process they have always used. With the mapping of the genome, this might change in the future towards FASTER potential cures.

If they KNEW what they were looking for from the outset, none of this would be an issue. You are trying to apply industrial turnaround times to things that are unknown. If I put x amount of money in I should get Y as a result.

It doesn't work that way and never has.

letsrock
07-09-2009, 11:13 AM
$2.5B could have been a cure for some disease. End of story.

Not in the USA. Well maybe how to fix a ingrown toenail. But thats not a disease.

Blackflag
07-09-2009, 11:51 AM
Think of the hundreds of billions of dollars they have thrown at anything. Jerry Lewis has spent his entire life pouring money into a cure.

You are trying to apply industrial turnaround times to things that are unknown. If I put x amount of money in I should get Y as a result.

I'm not doing that at all. I'm just saying that all the money spent on Jerry Lewis' telethons goes to find a cure for muscular dystrophy.

Successful or not, it's not spent to find out what's not a cure for muscular dystrophy. That's just fucking ass-backwards, and you know it.

letsrock
07-09-2009, 12:22 PM
The amount of money that all of these things generate in fund raisers is stagering.
Think of how many cities will have a walk this weekend for:
Breast Cancer
Cancer
Diabetes
MS

Not to mention telemarketers, people in office collecting your pennies or spare change. or the jar in the snack room. Lets not rule out churches helping to organize these things.
Or the other times you see donation jars in every store you go into. Look at McDonalds with the Ronald McDonald house canister at every register, dont forget the drive thrus as well.

what does all of this add up to.
Let me not forget the man or woman as example that dies of cancer or a heart attack. And instead of flowers they ask loved ones to make a donation to said charity.

Where is all the money?
Why doesnt anyone question this stuff?

Big Train
07-09-2009, 04:35 PM
I'm not doing that at all. I'm just saying that all the money spent on Jerry Lewis' telethons goes to find a cure for muscular dystrophy.

Successful or not, it's not spent to find out what's not a cure for muscular dystrophy. That's just fucking ass-backwards, and you know it.

OK, let's review. I've never said they were INTENTIONALLY not looking for a cure. I'm just saying that there is a value in that research, if by elminating the compounds that do not work, they get on the right track to a cure quicker.

How do you think they go about their research with the Jerry Lewis money? They are searching all kinds of avenues and failing with various compounds and cell research. That is the current method for every disease, period. Regardless of how the potential cure is percieved as legit or not. However, there is a value in those failures. That is all I've said and all I'm saying.

Blackflag
07-09-2009, 04:47 PM
I've never said they were INTENTIONALLY not looking for a cure.

"Shark cartilage for cancer."

You think there's any legitimate scientist who thought that might be a winner?

Dude. :stop:

letsrock
07-09-2009, 04:52 PM
Smoking cures poison ivy.

:biggrin:

Big Train
07-09-2009, 11:47 PM
"Shark cartilage for cancer."

You think there's any legitimate scientist who thought that might be a winner?

Dude. :stop:

When you or I become scientists, we can start to make those judgements. Your just denying a basic fact...that in the "loss" of not finding a cure, there is a small "win" in ruling things out.

Costs of course we agree, was way out of line.

letsrock
07-10-2009, 03:08 PM
When you or I become scientists, we can start to make those judgements. Your just denying a basic fact...that in the "loss" of not finding a cure, there is a small "win" in ruling things out.

Costs of course we agree, was way out of line.

I do agree with your post.