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Dolemite!
07-18-2009, 09:04 PM
9 Jul 2009

In an essay for the New Statesman, John Pilger argues that while liberals now celebrate America's return to its "moral ideals", they are silent on a venerable taboo. This is the true role of Americanism: an ideology distinguished by its myths and the denial that it exists. President Obama is its embodiment.

The monsoon had woven thick skeins of mist over the central highlands of Vietnam. I was a young war correspondent, bivouacked in the village of Tuylon with a unit of US marines whose orders were to win hearts and minds. “We are here not to kill,” said the sergeant, “we are here to impart the American Way of Liberty as stated in the Pacification Handbook. This is designed to win the hearts and minds of folks, as stated on page 86.”

Page 86 was headed WHAM. The sergeant’s unit was called a combined action company, which meant, he explained, “we attack these folks on Mondays and we win their hearts and minds on Tuesdays”. He was joking, though not quite. Standing in a jeep on the edge of a paddy, he had announced through a loudhailer: “Come on out, everybody. We got rice and candy and toothbrushes to give you.”

Silence. Not a shadow moved.

“Now listen, either you gooks come on out from wherever you are, or we’re going to come right in there and get you!”

The people of Tuylon finally came out and stood in line to receive packets of Uncle Ben’s Long Grain Rice, Hershey bars, party balloons and several thousand toothbrushes. Three portable, battery-operated, yellow flush lavatories were kept for the colonel’s arrival. And when the colonel arrived that evening, the district chief was summoned and the yellow flush lavatories were unveiled.

“Mr District Chief and all you folks out there,” said the colonel, “what these gifts represent is more than the sum of their parts. They carry the spirit of America. Ladies and gentlemen, there’s no place on earth like America. It’s a guiding light for me, and for you. You see, back home, we count ourselves as real lucky having the greatest democracy the world has ever known, and we want you good folks to share in our good fortune.”

Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Davy Crockett got a mention. “Beacon” was a favourite, and as he evoked John Winthrop’s “city upon a hill”, the marines clapped, and the children clapped, understanding not a word.

It was a lesson in what historians call “exceptionalism”, the notion that the United States has the divine right to bring what it describes as liberty and democracy to the rest of humanity. That this merely disguised a system of domination, which Martin Luther King described, shortly before his assassination, as “the greatest purveyor of violence in the world”, was unspeakable.

As the great people’s historian Howard Zinn has pointed out, Winthrop’s much-quoted description of the 17th-century Massachusetts Bay Colony as a “city upon a hill”, a place of unlimited goodness and nobility, was rarely set against the violence of the first settlers, for whom burning alive some 400 Pequot Indians was a “triumphant joy”. The countless massacres that followed, wrote Zinn, were justified by “the idea that American expansion is divinely ordained”.

Not long ago, I visited the American Museum of History, part of the celebrated Smithsonian Institution in Washington, DC. One of the popular exhibitions was “The Price of Freedom: Americans at War”. It was holiday time and lines of people, including many children, shuffled reverentially through a Santa’s grotto of war and conquest where messages about their nation’s “great mission” were dispensed. These included tributes to the “exceptional Americans [who] saved a million lives” in Vietnam, where they were “determined to stop communist expansion”. In Iraq, other true hearts “employed air strikes of unprecedented precision”. What was shocking was not so much the revisionist description of two of the epic crimes of modern times as the sheer scale of omission.

“History without memory,” declared Time magazine at the end of the 20th century, “confines Americans to a sort of eternal present.. They are especially weak in remembering what they did to other people, as opposed to what they did for them.” Ironically, it was Henry Luce, founder of Time, who in 1941 divined the “American century” as an American social, political and cultural “victory” over humanity and the right “to exert upon the world the full impact of our influence, for such purposes as we see fit and by such means as we see fit”.

None of this is to suggest that vainglory is exclusive to the United States. The British presented their often violent domination of much of the world as the natural progress of Christian gentlemen selflessly civilising the natives, and present-day TV historians perpetuate the myths. The French still celebrate their bloody “civilising mission”. Prior to the Second World War, “imperialist” was an honoured political badge in Europe, while in the US an “age of innocence” was preferred. America was different from the Old World, said its mythologists. America was the Land of Liberty, uninterested in conquest. But what of George Washington’s call for a “rising empire” and James Madison’s “laying the foundation of a great empire”? What of slavery, the theft of Texas from Mexico, the bloody subjugation of central America, Cuba and the Philippines?

An ordained national memory consigned these to the historical margins and “imperialism” was all but discredited in the United States, especially after Adolf Hitler and the fascists, with their ideas of racial and cultural superiority, had left a legacy of guilt by association. The Nazis, after all, had been proud imperialists, too, and Germany was also “exceptional”. The idea of imperialism, the word itself, was all but expunged from the American lexicon, “on the grounds that it falsely attributed immoral motives to western foreign policy”, argued one historian. Those who persisted in using it were “disreputable purveyors of agitprop” and were “inspired by the communist doctrine”, or they were “Negro intellectuals who had grievances of their own against white capitalism”.

Meanwhile, the “city on the hill” remained a beacon of rapaciousness as US capital set about realising Luce’s dream and recolonising the European empires in the postwar years. This was “the march of free enterprise”. In truth, it was driven by a subsidised production boom in a country unravaged by war: a sort of socialism for the great corporations, or state capitalism, which left half the world’s wealth in American hands. The cornerstone of this new imperialism was laid in 1944 at a conference of the western allies at Bretton Woods in New Hampshire. Described as “negotiations about economic stability”, the conference marked America’s conquest of most of the world.

What the American elite demanded, wrote Frederic F Clairmont in The Rise and Fall of Economic Liberalism, “was not allies but unctuous client states. What Bretton Woods bequeathed to the world was a lethal totalitarian blueprint for the carve-up of world markets.” The World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, the Asian Development Bank, the Inter-American Development Bank and the African Development Bank were established in effect as arms of the US Treasury and would design and police the new order. The US military and its clients would guard the doors of these “international” institutions, and an “invisible government” of media would secure the myths, said Edward Bernays.

Bernays, described as the father of the media age, was the nephew of Sigmund Freud. “Propaganda,” he wrote, “got to be a bad word because of the Germans... so what I did was to try and find other words [such as] Public Relations.” Bernays used Freud’s theories about control of the subconscious to promote a “mass culture” designed to promote fear of official enemies and servility to consumerism. It was Bernays who, on behalf of the tobacco industry, campaigned for American women to take up smoking as an act of feminist liberation, calling cigarettes “torches of freedom”; and it was his notion of disinformation that was deployed in overthrowing governments, such as Guatemala’s democracy in 1954.

Above all, the goal was to distract and deter the social democratic impulses of working people. Big business was elevated from its public reputation as a kind of mafia to that of a patriotic force. “Free enterprise” became a divinity. “By the early 1950s,” wrote Noam Chomsky, “20 million people a week were watching business-sponsored films. The entertainment industry was enlisted to the cause, portraying unions as the enemy, the outsider disrupting the ‘harmony’ of the ‘American way of life’... Every aspect of social life was targeted and permeated schools and universities, churches, even recreational programmes. By 1954, business propaganda in public schools reached half the amount spent on textbooks.”

The new “ism” was Americanism, an ideology whose distinction is its denial that it is an ideology. Recently, I saw the 1957 musical Silk Stockings, starring Fred Astaire and Cyd Charisse. Between the scenes of wonderful dancing to a score by Cole Porter was a series of loyalty statements that the colonel in Vietnam might well have written. I had forgotten how crude and pervasive the propaganda was; the Soviets could never compete. An oath of loyalty to all things American became an ideological commitment to the leviathan of business: from the business of armaments and war (which consumes 42 cents in every tax dollar today) to the business of food, known as “agripower” (which receives $157bn a year in government subsidies).

Barack Obama is the embodiment of this “ism”. From his early political days, Obama’s unerring theme has been not “change”, the slogan of his presidential campaign, but America’s right to rule and order the world. Of the United States, he says, “we lead the world in battling immediate evils and promoting the ultimate good... We must lead by building a 21st-century military to ensure the security of our people and advance the security of all people.” And: “At moments of great peril in the past century our leaders ensured that America, by deed and by example, led and lifted the world, that we stood and fought for the freedoms sought by billions of people beyond their borders.”

Since 1945, by deed and by example, the US has overthrown 50 governments, including democracies, crushed some 30 liberation movements and supported tyrannies from Egypt to Guatemala (see William Blum’s histories). Bombing is apple pie. Having stacked his government with warmongers, Wall Street cronies and polluters from the Bush and Clinton eras, the 45th president is merely upholding tradition. The hearts and minds farce I witnessed in Vietnam is today repeated in villages in Afghanistan and, by proxy, Pakistan, which are Obama’s wars.

In his acceptance speech for the 2005 Nobel Prize for Literature, Harold Pinter noted that “everyone knew that terrible crimes had been committed by the Soviet Union in the postwar period, but “US crimes in the same period have been only superficially recorded, let alone documented, let alone acknowledged, let alone recognised as crimes at all”. It is as if “It never happened. Nothing ever happened. Even while it was happening, it wasn’t happening... You have to hand it to America... masquerading as a force for universal good. It’s a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis.”

As Obama has sent drones to kill (since January) some 700 civilians, distinguished liberals have rejoiced that America is once again a “nation of moral ideals”, as Paul Krugman wrote in the New York Times. In Britain, the elite has long seen in exceptional America an enduring place for British “influence”, albeit as servitor or puppet. The pop historian Tristram Hunt says America under Obama is a land “where miracles happen”. Justin Webb, until recently the BBC’s man in Washington, refers adoringly, rather like the colonel in Vietnam, to the “city on the hill”.

Behind this façade of “intensification of feeling and degradation of significance” (Walter Lippmann), ordinary Americans are stirring perhaps as never before, as if abandoning the deity of the “American Dream” that prosperity is a guarantee with hard work and thrift.. Millions of angry emails from ordinary people have flooded Washington, expressing an outrage that the novelty of Obama has not calmed. On the contrary, those whose jobs have vanished and whose homes are repossessed see the new president rewarding crooked banks and an obese military, essentially protecting George W Bush’s turf.

My guess is that a populism will emerge in the next few years, igniting a powerful force that lies beneath America’s surface and which has a proud past. It cannot be predicted which way it will go. However, from such an authentic grass-roots Americanism came women’s suffrage, the eight-hour day, graduated income tax and public ownership. In the late 19th century, the populists were betrayed by leaders who urged them to compromise and merge with the Democratic Party. In the Obama era, the familiarity of this resonates.

What is most extraordinary about the United States today is the rejection and defiance, in so many attitudes, of the all-pervasive historical and contemporary propaganda of the “invisible government”. Credible polls have long confirmed that more than two-thirds of Americans hold progressive views. A majority want the government to care for those who cannot care for themselves. They would pay higher taxes to guarantee health care for everyone. They want complete nuclear disarmament; 72 per cent want the US to end its colonial wars; and so on. They are informed, subversive, even “anti-American”.

I once asked a friend, the great American war correspondent and humanitarian Martha Gellhorn, to explain the term to me. “I’ll tell you what ‘anti-American’ is,” she said. “It’s what governments and their vested interests call those who honour America by objecting to war and the theft of resources and believing in all of humanity. There are millions of these anti-Americans in the United States. They are ordinary people who belong to no elite and who judge their government in moral terms, though they would call it common decency. They are not vain. They are the people with a wakeful conscience, the best of America’s citizens. They can be counted on. They were in the South with the civil rights movement, ending slavery. They were in the streets, demanding an end to the wars in Asia. Sure, they disappear from view now and then, but they are like seeds beneath the snow. I would say they are truly exceptional.”

Adapted from an address, Empire, Obama and the Last Taboo, given by John Pilger at Socialism 2009 in San Francisco on 4th July

Nickdfresh
07-18-2009, 11:36 PM
What a boring old cunt...

Dolemite!
07-19-2009, 09:25 AM
Oh yes, information is so boring. Think I'll just head over to find some ultimately unimportant nonsense in the daily news so I can gloss over things like reality.

standin
07-19-2009, 10:26 AM
What a boring old cunt...

You read it?
What was it about?:hitch:

Dolemite!
07-19-2009, 10:53 AM
Ironically it's about Obama and his sheep like following being ignorant.

hideyoursheep
07-19-2009, 03:07 PM
Oh yes, information is so boring. Think I'll just head over to find some ultimately unimportant nonsense in the daily news so I can gloss over things like reality.


If you think this is reality, you should buy some property in Waco, Texas. I hear it's vacant.

Dolemite!
07-19-2009, 03:49 PM
Well there's no point in arguing with an Obamatron.

Nickdfresh
07-19-2009, 04:52 PM
Oh yes, information is so boring.

Most cliches are...that's why they call them cliches. Yes, I know, I wasn't supposed to celebrate the Fourth of July because my ancestors killed a lot of Native Americans. But then again, Pilger's ancestors killed a lot of Aboriginals, and he safety lives it up in an American ally that has also committed massive atrocities around the world. But that's okay, his bourgeois lifestyle is justified because he writes trite propaganda pieces on behalf of murdering assholes --while ironically pointing out where the US-assholes had murdered or killed unnecessarily...

Pilger has also defended rapist, baby-killers (the Yugoslav gov't under Milosevic) merely because they happened to oppose the US and NATO policies under the guise of being an "anti-Western socialist" (even though he was about as left wing as George Bush when you look at Milo's actual economic policies) of trying to stop ethnic cleansing and said rapes and atrocities, which makes him a blinding hypocrite who gives fuckall about the lives of innocence when it stands in front of his Marxist-Stalinist apologias...

So yes, fucking excuse me while I'll snore through his school-boy essay...as Pilger's themes seem to be essentially that it is okay to murder "reactionary peoples" as long as one is not a hegemonic superpower...


Think I'll just head over to find some ultimately unimportant nonsense in the daily news so I can gloss over things like reality.


Yeah, find some more op-eds filled with factual inaccuracies and out-of-context half-truths --and claim you've found your God...

:handjob:

Dolemite!
07-19-2009, 04:57 PM
What a load of nonsense. Pilger's ancestors now? erm, he speaks out for the aborginals against his govt. And his article wasn't about killing of native Americans, shows how much attention you pay to things.

We had this talk about Yugoslav before, but ofcourse all you could do was insist that the official version of events and propaganda as narrated by the US/Nato war mongering side was accurate. You fail to see it, but it's all bs as is Obama's war on terror.

Nickdfresh
07-19-2009, 05:07 PM
What a load of nonsense. Pilger's ancestors now?

Yes. They are on par with my ancestors. The only difference is one of scale and power, not of morality...


erm, he speaks out for the aborginals against his govt.

Good. So do I. I've also condemned US atrocities, the slaughter of Native Americans, etc. Who gives a fuck? Am I a great person too? He's about as effective as I am at actually improving humanity...


And his article wasn't about killing of native Americans, shows how much attention you pay to things.

In case you didn't read it, he mentions it early on as some sort of black-mark on the legitimacy of the American society...


We had this talk about Yugoslav before, but ofcourse all you could do was insist that the official version of events and propaganda as narrated by the US/Nato war mongering side was accurate. You fail to see it, but it's all bs as is Obama's war on terror.

No. Actually, I posted a thorough rebuke of Pilger's school-boy Stalinist rationales written by a Serbian academic no less...

BTW, how was Pilger any closer to the "truth" of what happened in the Balkans than the hundreds of actual journalists that reported on the Serbian militias and JNA atrocities (and their Bosnian and Croat enemies as well)?

And WTF would Obama have to do with all this? BTW, he has officially decreed that there is no more "War on Terror."

Dolemite!
07-19-2009, 05:18 PM
Serbian academic no less... I'm sure.

You might have faith in these hundred's of "actual" journalists but they're a bunch of sheep who don't know the first thing about factual reporting or thinking for themselves. Pilger is one among many who tend to get things right and his record speaks for itself. If you don't like Pilger I can provide other non-bullshit non-mainstream sources who know what they're talking about.

Mentioning Obama was an attempt to get this back on topic, away from Pilger and discussing what more than a few liberals are beginning to take opposition to. However it seems everyone will have a stubborn supporter who hangs onto the bandwagon till the end.

Nickdfresh
07-19-2009, 05:24 PM
Serbian academic no less... I'm sure.

Right. You're only slightly skeptical when it contravenes your point of view...

Here's the link:

The Left Revisionists, by Marko Attila Hoare (http://www.glypx.com/balkanwitness/hoare.htm)


You might have faith in these hundred's of "actual" journalists but they're a bunch of sheep who don't know the first thing about factual reporting or thinking for themselves. Pilger is one among many who tend to get things right and his record speaks for itself. If you don't like Pilger I can provide other non-bullshit non-mainstream sources who know what they're talking about.

LOL Such statements make you an arrogant retard who is an unquestioning sheep of Pilger and revisionist aphorisms...


Mentioning Obama was an attempt to get this back on topic, away from Pilger and discussing what more than a few liberals are beginning to take opposition to. However it seems everyone will have a stubborn supporter who hangs onto the bandwagon till the end.

"Opposition" because Obama isn't "left-enough?" I agree. But then, Obama has to actually govern, does not have omnipotent powers, and will face consequences if he makes any missteps...

Dolemite!
07-19-2009, 05:53 PM
That is so obviously a lame propaganda piece constantly using the label revisionist and then making comparisons to holocaust deniers. Just use charges of "anti-semite!!!" and you have half your article done. Good work, falling for this random piece from this guy Atilla the Whoare whoever the hell that is.

I'm a sheep for reading people who have some credibility? Wow thanks for that re-definition of the word. However, unlike you, even though I do check some sources I also have a common sense, instinctive understanding of what is happening without even hearing someone else's opinion or the facts. I knew the Iraq war was a pile of shit and a child should know that all the current wars are shit. But you are so in denial that you're beyond help.

That last bit on Obama is absolutely meaningless and a glossing over of events. Yes, the lefties are just mad because Obama comes down harder on suspected terrorists than Bush, for instance.

Nickdfresh
07-19-2009, 06:34 PM
That is so obviously a lame propaganda piece constantly using the label revisionist and then making comparisons to holocaust deniers. Just use charges of "anti-semite!!!" and you have half your article done. Good work, falling for this random piece from this guy Atilla the Whoare whoever the hell that is.

He no more eludes to Holocaust deniers than Pilger alluded to America as a society founded on destruction of Native America...

Yet the parallels exist. Nice simplistic summary though. But I think you've completely missed the point...


I'm a sheep for reading people who have some credibility?

According to whom? The British "media sheep" I am supposed to worship?


Wow thanks for that re-definition of the word. However, unlike you, even though I do check some sources I also have a common sense, instinctive understanding of what is happening without even hearing someone else's opinion or the facts.

LMFAO!! Oh, that was just hysterical!! :biggrin:


I knew the Iraq war was a pile of shit and a child should know that all the current wars are shit. But you are so in denial that you're beyond help.

So I'm a child for also believing the Iraq War was shit?


That last bit on Obama is absolutely meaningless and a glossing over of events. Yes, the lefties are just mad because Obama comes down harder on suspected terrorists than Bush, for instance.

So, "coming down hard on suspected terrorists" makes Obama horrible? How's that? What's funny is that you are every bit as irrational as Obama's domestic rightist critics that denounce him as some 'socialist pussy-wimp' or something...

Dolemite!
07-19-2009, 06:48 PM
He no more eludes to Holocaust deniers than Pilger alluded to America as a society founded on destruction of Native America...

Yet the parallels exist. Nice simplistic summary though. But I think you've completely missed the point...



According to whom? The British "media sheep" I am supposed to worship?



LMFAO!! Oh, that was just hysterical!! :biggrin:



So I'm a child for also believing the Iraq War was shit?



So, "coming down hard on suspected terrorists" makes Obama horrible? How's that? What's funny is that you are every bit as irrational as Obama's domestic rightist critics that denounce him as some 'socialist pussy-wimp' or something...

You go on about Pilger but what exactly are your sources? An ever changing bunch of people you've just managed to google at that moment? I'm no Serb historian and you sure aren't either. I can't go point by point against what that guy has written, unless I spend a good length of time. But what good reason is there to take his word over that of other more established jouranlists? None really. Bottom line is whether or no there was a Serb massacre in 91 (which is the only proveable episode) as opposed to during the war on Serbia, there was a deliberate ploy to expand Nato and we see its further expansion now.

Re: your Iraq war beliefs are symptomatic of more or less classic liberal tendency. Blame the right not for what they do but because of who's doing it.

I'm comparable to the right when I'm arguing the opposite of what they do? No boy wonder, I'm criticizing him for the same reasons I did Bush. You're so stuck with your Obama self-identification that the most obvious things go over your head.

Nickdfresh
07-19-2009, 06:59 PM
You go on about Pilger but what exactly are your sources?

My own beliefs, the fact that I was watching while all this took place, and the intellectual solidification of Hoare's article...

What are your "sources?" What are Pilger's? It's just opinion bullied by semantics and selective, revisionist history...


An ever changing bunch of people you've just managed to google at that moment? I'm no Serb historian and you sure aren't either.

Oh fucking right!! Pilger is all over Google and is the biggest Google-whore of all, attempting to spam the search engine so any critical debate of his work is buried...

Fucking spare me, Google-spunker...


I can't go point by point against what that guy has written, unless I spend a good length of time.

You can't go any point, because you have no idea what you are talking about, and won't bother to even try to refute it...


But what good reason is there to take his word over that of other more established jouranlists? None really. Bottom line is whether or no there was a Serb massacre in 91 (which is the only proveable episode)

WTF are you talking about? If the massacre was "proveable," then is happened (as it did)...

The only reason it is proveable is because it was taped. Yet this lends creadance to the hundreds of alleged Serb atrocities that took place...


as opposed to during the war on Serbia, there was a deliberate ploy to expand Nato and we see its further expansion now.

Please tell us how "expanding NATO" is such a "ploy?" The only nations wanting membership are ex-Eastern Bloc ones afraid of Russia...


Re: your Iraq war beliefs are symptomatic of more or less classic liberal tendency. Blame the right not for what they do but because of who's doing it.

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZ....

WTF are you talking about? There are a few "liberals" that supported Bush's Neocon, moralist leanings....


I'm comparable to the right when I'm arguing the opposite of what they do?

Actually, many on the extreme right agree with Pilger on Bosnia and Kosovo...


No boy wonder, I'm criticizing him for the same reasons I did Bush. You're so stuck with your Obama self-identification that the most obvious things go over your head.

LOL When have I ever self-identified Obama?

I just said that you attack him on the same sort of ideological styled ad hominem that the right employs...

Dolemite!
07-19-2009, 07:18 PM
Let me go point by point on each of your comments.



yada yada yada yada

Yeah.


oink oink chirp chirp hiss rattle mooooo...


Sounds like the beginnings of a thesis there.



blah blah blah and but not least blah

Whatever.




The pretext was not the earlier slaughters but the immediate genocide that was said to be taking place for which the Serbs allegedly were to blame. That has been disputed by many and relying on tapes is far from fool proof. You don't want to acknowledge the imperialistic and dominant tendencies Pilger wrote of in this article, and that serves as the foundation of understanding this and Obama's wars. Until then you're at the mercy of the govt/media daily propaganda machine.

NATO is an exercise in reigning in Russia and there are people egging the east Euro nations playing on their fears. It's not as if Poland had the idea of basing a missile defence in it's territory first.

There is no ideology in my Obama bashing.

Dolemite!
07-19-2009, 07:28 PM
This whole thing about revisionism is such bull. So opinions don't change, an understanding of something isn't modified by previously unknown facts coming to light? This is like Colbert speaking of Bush... believing on Wedneday the same thing you do on Monday, no matter what happened Tuesday.

Nickdfresh
07-19-2009, 07:39 PM
Let me go point by point on each of your comments.




Yeah.




Sounds like the beginnings of a thesis there.




Whatever.

"Yada..." Really? Are you some fictional NYC broad called Elaine now?



The pretext was not the earlier slaughters but the immediate genocide that was said to be taking place for which the Serbs allegedly were to blame. That has been disputed by many and relying on tapes is far from fool proof. You don't want to acknowledge the imperialistic and dominant tendencies Pilger wrote of in this article, and that serves as the foundation of understanding this and Obama's wars. Until then you're at the mercy of the govt/media daily propaganda machine.

Fucking spare me! The "tapes" came out long after the War was over. What did trigger the NATO airstrikes was the Serbs taking UN Peacekeepers hostage and using them as human shields...

A well-documented warcrime that flouts any sort of concept of international law...


NATO is an exercise in reigning in Russia and there are people egging the east Euro nations playing on their fears. It's not as if Poland had the idea of basing a missile defence in it's territory first.

There is no ideology in my Obama bashing.

So. What does NATO gain from all this? How the fuck do you think the Poles felt about being goaded into the Warsaw Pact? How were they supposed to feel about being "liberated" by the Red Army? An army that actually joined the Nazis in invading Poland, then set up an unpopular, communist puppet dictatorship...

Yeah, "revisionism"...

letsrock
07-20-2009, 08:53 AM
If you think this is reality, you should buy some property in Waco, Texas. I hear it's vacant.

An old compound.

Dolemite!
07-20-2009, 07:14 PM
"Yada..." Really? Are you some fictional NYC broad called Elaine now?




Fucking spare me! The "tapes" came out long after the War was over. What did trigger the NATO airstrikes was the Serbs taking UN Peacekeepers hostage and using them as human shields...

A well-documented warcrime that flouts any sort of concept of international law...



So. What does NATO gain from all this? How the fuck do you think the Poles felt about being goaded into the Warsaw Pact? How were they supposed to feel about being "liberated" by the Red Army? An army that actually joined the Nazis in invading Poland, then set up an unpopular, communist puppet dictatorship...

Yeah, "revisionism"...



It's about the west using NATO in places where it didn't have a mandate. You ask what's wrong in giving larger powers to NATO. One day you're likely to see NATO patrolling your Gaza like neighbourhood. A world government needs a world army. You can rest now, I'll let you return back to the warmth of the matrix.

Nickdfresh
07-20-2009, 09:45 PM
It's about the west using NATO in places where it didn't have a mandate. You ask what's wrong in giving larger powers to NATO. One day you're likely to see NATO patrolling your Gaza like neighbourhood. A world government needs a world army. You can rest now, I'll let you return back to the warmth of the matrix.

Well, since the local Army Nat'l Guard troops are part of NATO:

A.) It wouldn't be such a big deal

B.) I'd have other worries since the Army only comes out during natural (or man-made) disasters here

Nickdfresh
07-21-2009, 07:01 PM
...I'll let you return back to the warmth of the matrix.

http://inox.org/demot/CONSPIRACYTHEORIES.jpg
Here's a motivational poster for you...

Dolemite!
07-21-2009, 07:52 PM
"Because conspiracy theories are teh lawl" very intelligent.

I feel sorry for you and your kind. You were there in the aftermath of burned down Jewish neighbourhoods in 1939 wondering where it came from and how untouchable powerful rich people could be dragged away to die in ghettos.

You have this idea that your reality will remain more or less the same and that the events of history are confined to the past. Then out of the blue a terrorist strike or some other worse event comes and sweeps you away like the flood. You'll remember what the 'doom mongers' had to say and repent later in dust and ashes. Later generations will ask, how could they not have known just like they asked of the rise of Hitler. The answer is you have a bunch of sheep forming the majority of society. No matter what progress has been made, the sheep can be found in a modern updated version.

Nickdfresh
07-21-2009, 08:14 PM
"Because conspiracy theories are teh lawl" very intelligent.

I feel sorry for you and your kind. You were there in the aftermath of burned down Jewish neighbourhoods in 1939 wondering where it came from and how untouchable powerful rich people could be dragged away to die in ghettos.
...

Yeah, no one saw that one coming...

Dolemite!
07-21-2009, 08:29 PM
You see it now just like you can now see the possibilty of plane manouvering cave men.

Seshmeister
07-21-2009, 08:36 PM
"Because conspiracy theories are teh lawl" very intelligent.

I feel sorry for you and your kind. You were there in the aftermath of burned down Jewish neighbourhoods in 1939 wondering where it came from and how untouchable powerful rich people could be dragged away to die in ghettos.

You have this idea that your reality will remain more or less the same and that the events of history are confined to the past. Then out of the blue a terrorist strike or some other worse event comes and sweeps you away like the flood. You'll remember what the 'doom mongers' had to say and repent later in dust and ashes. Later generations will ask, how could they not have known just like they asked of the rise of Hitler. The answer is you have a bunch of sheep forming the majority of society. No matter what progress has been made, the sheep can be found in a modern updated version.

Calling everyone who isn't retarded a 'sheep' isn't an argument it's just childish rubbish.

If my 4 year old kid says that there is an invisible elf called Morten who lives at the bottom of my garden the fact I don't sit there for days trying to see it doesn't make me a sheep.

You believe the kid despite all the sensible evidence is against it and it fails the golden rule that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. That may make you feel special. You may feel like you are a member of some exclusive club but it's a club of fucking stupid people who are completely wasting their time on the conspiracy religion.

Dolemite!
07-21-2009, 08:41 PM
You're the one speaking in vague generalizations.

Tell me how Morten the elf has anything to do with the formation of a world governement as written in real books by the most important people on the planet. But you see you take comfort in the "understanding" of the rest of your fellow majority sheep and say there is nothing to fear. The facts don't matter to you, you will listen only to the herd and be a herd in turn.

Seshmeister
07-21-2009, 08:43 PM
Hahahaha.

Yeah David Icke is a fucking sage, if more snooker commentators had mental breakdowns in the 1930s WWII could have been avoided. :D

Nickdfresh
07-21-2009, 08:44 PM
You're the one speaking in vague generalizations.

Tell me how Morten the elf has anything to do with the formation of a world governement as written in real books by the most important people on the planet...

Or charlatan douchebags bilking you stupid "sheep" that need to believe in a sense of orderly cause and effect, out of your hard earned money (aka Alex Jones)...


But you see you take comfort in the "understanding" of the rest of your fellow majority sheep and say there is nothing to fear. The facts don't matter to you, you will listen only to the herd and be a herd in turn.

Yeah, because you're the one that buys any shit spewed without the slightest skepticism?

Seshmeister
07-21-2009, 08:47 PM
Nick you spend waaay to much time debating with this idiot.

It's probably a 14 year old kid who is either trolling or who will learn as they get older.

Nickdfresh
07-21-2009, 08:50 PM
You're prolly right...

Dolemite!
07-21-2009, 08:51 PM
Hahahaha.

Yeah David Icke is a fucking sage, if more snooker commentators had mental breakdowns in the 1930s WWII could have been avoided. :D


And you call yourself a science graduate or whatever? I said one of the most important, powerful people on the planet, so why did you mention Icke?

You don't see it but your knack is more towards dumbing everything down. Like even after I proved that HAARP is being taken seriously in Europe and the rest of the world, all you could do was stoop to MJ like silly jokes and talk about fake degrees. You're on the level of those supermaket moms that just read tabloids and watch Britain's got talent. Infact I expect you already do.

Dolemite!
07-21-2009, 08:51 PM
Whatever, pharisees of the modern world.

Dolemite!
07-21-2009, 08:54 PM
I'll tell you this, the day there's another major terrorist attack or mass scale riots, either leading to martial law in the states, I'll be here to say I told you so. Ditto for when WW3 gets rolling.

Nickdfresh
07-21-2009, 09:01 PM
I'll tell you this, the day there's another major terrorist attack or mass scale riots, either leading to martial law in the states, I'll be here to say I told you so. Ditto for when WW3 gets rolling.

:picknose::poke::handjob:

Seshmeister
07-21-2009, 09:07 PM
I'll tell you this, the day there's another major terrorist attack or mass scale riots, either leading to martial law in the states, I'll be here to say I told you so. Ditto for when WW3 gets rolling.

That's brilliant.

Why don't you go walk up and down a shopping mall with the placard on like the rest of the loons and give us peace?

http://markontheworld.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/the-end.jpg

standin
07-21-2009, 10:27 PM
Wow! Dolomite's fail is so much more interesting over here.

Dolomite, is this really how you saw it?
Was this what you envisioned it to be?
Write us (me) a song about it...
And send it to the Elders,
maybe...
just maybe...
if Tracy doesn't veto it
It will get published in the Kingdom Songs.

Just wondering as a kid did you worry daily about the final judgment?
I used to, when ever weird clouds would form, I would be thinking "This might be it.."
Sometimes people recreate the same monsters they were trying to let go of


If conspiracy is so important a proclaiming the truth work to you,
Why did you join in it's activities?

:umm:

Dolemite!
07-22-2009, 02:50 AM
That's brilliant.

Why don't you go walk up and down a shopping mall with the placard on like the rest of the loons and give us peace?



I'm not even slightly surprised. Demonstrating yet again that



your knack is more towards dumbing everything down.



As always you never deal with facts, rational person. You're so dumbed down that you would deny something written of for decades by people I've mentioned before, and has appeared in the mainstream press. That is the level to which you are blinded. How you manage to make this claim that you're smarter than others is some real work of non-reasoning.

hideyoursheep
07-22-2009, 04:05 AM
Hey, Trollemite...

You do know that they are aware of your every post and can snuff you out like a cigarette at any time JUST for attemping to inform people, riiight?

Better dump that PC in the ocean pronto, kid!

And don't answer the door until wednesday....the phone friday after 6:22 pm.....leave all your incoming mail in the mailbox until late Aug. Don't buy anything containing dairy or whole grains for a week and a half, and get yourself some American padlocks-NOT the Master combination locks...they can open those with a remote. Then put them on your neighbor's doors....DON'T touch any stray cats- they're drones. You don't believe me? Ever notice how they stare at you when you walk by, but never let you get close enough to see the conduit?

And don't forget to pay only in cash. You might be safe until your porch light burns out.


:luck::yikes::dork:

Nickdfresh
07-22-2009, 11:52 AM
I'm not even slightly surprised. Demonstrating yet again that

lways you never deal with facts, rational person. You're so dumbed down that you would deny something written of for decades by people I've mentioned before, and has appeared in the mainstream press. That is the level to which you are blinded. How you manage to make this claim that you're smarter than others is some real work of non-reasoning.

http://s.sk-gaming.com/image/member/1/7fd616f701c65800l.jpg

Igosplut
07-22-2009, 12:38 PM
DON'T touch any stray cats- they're drones. You don't believe me? Ever notice how they stare at you when you walk by, but never let you get close enough to see the conduit?


Iszzat what those are????

Good God..

Dolemite!
07-22-2009, 08:25 PM
Hey, Trollemite...

You do know that they are aware of your every post and can snuff you out like a cigarette at any time JUST for attemping to inform people, riiight?

Better dump that PC in the ocean pronto, kid!

And don't answer the door until wednesday....the phone friday after 6:22 pm.....leave all your incoming mail in the mailbox until late Aug. Don't buy anything containing dairy or whole grains for a week and a half, and get yourself some American padlocks-NOT the Master combination locks...they can open those with a remote. Then put them on your neighbor's doors....DON'T touch any stray cats- they're drones. You don't believe me? Ever notice how they stare at you when you walk by, but never let you get close enough to see the conduit?

And don't forget to pay only in cash. You might be safe until your porch light burns out.


:luck::yikes::dork:



It always happens. Something always comes up for Seshmeister to avoid actually making a rational argument for his nonsense. In this case it's this unwitty post from Hideyourbrains.

Nickdfresh
07-22-2009, 09:30 PM
It always happens. Something always comes up for Seshmeister to avoid actually making a rational argument for his nonsense. In this case it's this unwitty post from Hideyourbrains.

As opposed to your nonsense arguments for your rationale?

Dolemite!
07-23-2009, 05:07 PM
You may be thick but I'd ask what more rationale would I need when something is openly admitted to by someone. You're uninformed but once the fact is put before you in the form of an open admission, then how do you claim that this isn't true? Any library will carry the book I mentioned.

FORD
07-23-2009, 05:49 PM
You may be thick but I'd ask what more rationale would I need when something is openly admitted to by someone. You're uninformed but once the fact is put before you in the form of an open admission, then how do you claim that this isn't true? Any library will carry the book I mentioned.

What book is that?

"How to fuck Children" by Gary Glitter?

Seshmeister
07-23-2009, 09:01 PM
Any library will carry the book I mentioned.


http://thebarefoot.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/bd_4_dummies.gif

hideyoursheep
07-24-2009, 04:58 AM
It always happens. Something always comes up for Seshmeister to avoid actually making a rational argument for his nonsense. In this case it's this unwitty post from Hideyourbrains.

Shesh would intellectually flatten you like a steamroller. None of my goofy posts are going to slow him down, Andy.



<a href="http://4gifs.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://4gifs.com/gallery/d/2354-3/Pedobearonsteflazytown.gif?" alt="4gifs.com" /></a>

Dolemite!
07-24-2009, 05:03 AM
Oh so that's why he feels he doesn't need to explain anything, he's "intellectual." He's a class A mindless moron.

Nickdfresh
07-25-2009, 05:08 AM
Oh so that's why he feels he doesn't need to explain anything, he's "intellectual." He's a class A mindless moron.

He just doesn't bother with trolls, which is what really gets to you...

Dolemite!
07-25-2009, 11:01 AM
But he does, he fills the place with inane asides. The problem is he can never say anything on topic.

hideyoursheep
07-26-2009, 05:16 AM
<a href="http://4gifs.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://4gifs.com/gallery/d/6727-3/PedoBearLazyTown.gif?" alt="4gifs.com" /></a>

Dolemite!
07-26-2009, 03:44 PM
The 1percenter strikes again. No wonder you're in the military.

hideyoursheep
07-26-2009, 04:44 PM
The 1percenter strikes again. No wonder you're in the military.

That was a long time ago.

Your girlfriends weren't even born when I got out.

Now explain the "no wonder" comment....

Dolemite!
07-26-2009, 05:04 PM
Well anyone who takes orders cult style without question and risks being cannon fodder for a war industry that doesn't care about enemies or "it's own" could only be a one percenter...

hideyoursheep
07-26-2009, 05:35 PM
Well anyone who takes orders cult style without question and risks being cannon fodder for a war industry that doesn't care about enemies or "it's own" could only be a one percenter...

LMAO.


It's obvious you haven't a fucking clue as to what you're talking about, so why don't you go find out for yourself or STFU, because it makes you look stupid when you pretend.

In other words, don't make me bitch-slap you even harder than you already have been.

Dolemite!
07-26-2009, 05:58 PM
I'll happily admit I don't know the inside-out of the military, except that they'll glady send people off to die for a phony manufactured war. Good enough for me.

standin
07-26-2009, 06:16 PM
HyS, where is that pedobear gif from and based on?

:scared14:

ELVIS
07-26-2009, 07:04 PM
Well anyone who takes orders cult style without question and risks being cannon fodder for a war industry that doesn't care about enemies or "it's own" could only be a one percenter...

Total proof...you're clueless...

Nickdfresh
07-26-2009, 07:13 PM
I'll happily admit I don't know the inside-out of the military....



Or anything else...

Satan
07-26-2009, 07:16 PM
Or anything else...

Except for a few pre-teen boys' assholes.

Dolemite!
07-26-2009, 07:30 PM
Or anything else...

Doing cheap shots doesn't require much either.

hideyoursheep
07-26-2009, 09:26 PM
Doing cheap shots doesn't require much either.

:rolleyes:


I get the feeling about the only thing factual that you could ever bring to these boards is your recipe for chloroform popsicles.:fufu:

Nickdfresh
07-26-2009, 09:42 PM
Doing cheap shots doesn't require much either.

You should know...

Dolemite!
07-26-2009, 09:42 PM
That recipe would require more skill than anything you did.

hideyoursheep
07-26-2009, 09:59 PM
That recipe would require more skill than anything you did.


Hmm...

I guess you're right...

It must take a certain amount of skill to evade the authorities as long as you have.

A pedophile Hindi living in the UK...:umm:

Don't get too comfortable. :cop:

You could try moving to the states. Move to a reservation.

Change your name to Dances with Kids.

Seshmeister
07-26-2009, 10:15 PM
That recipe would require more skill than anything you did.

That post is weaker than an asthmatic kitten.

Dolemite!
07-26-2009, 10:29 PM
Hmm...

I guess you're right...

It must take a certain amount of skill to evade the authorities as long as you have.

A pedophile Hindi living in the UK...:umm:

Don't get too comfortable. :cop:

You could try moving to the states. Move to a reservation.

Change your name to Dances with Kids.


How nice, you've got something against native Indians too.


And Hindi is a language not a people.

hideyoursheep
07-26-2009, 10:34 PM
How nice, you've got something against native Indians too..

Native wha?

Meh..it doesn't matter. They don't want you either.



And Hindi is a language not a people.

I guess you don't speak it? Yet you know what I meant, so good enough.

Dolemite!
07-26-2009, 10:36 PM
That post is weaker than an asthmatic kitten.

Care to comment on your random links to pictures?

hideyoursheep
07-26-2009, 10:45 PM
Care to comment on your random links to pictures?
Care to GTFO and take your A-Ha with you?:fufu:

Dolemite!
07-26-2009, 10:47 PM
It's my thread, you leave.

hideyoursheep
07-26-2009, 11:11 PM
It's my thread, you leave.

Fuck you AND your ignorant thread.

It's mine now!

Every one's sick to death of looking at your tin foil hat and your absolutely SHITTY taste in music....and I use the term "music" very loosely.

You have some nerve. You have no problem complaining about other peoples' countries, while your own country of origin has YET to bring all of it's people with them into the 19th century!!-nevermind the millennium.

Yours is a study in selective indignation. You fail as a hypocrite. Miserably.


:homoswitch:

Dolemite!
07-26-2009, 11:20 PM
Ofcourse to a simpleton like you it's reduced down to my country is better than yours. That's not the point of anything I say, genius. But like an average dope you would equate Obama bashing with US bashing.

And the US has also yet to bring all it's people into the "19th" century as evidenced by you.

hideyoursheep
07-26-2009, 11:33 PM
Ofcourse to a simpleton like you it's reduced down to my country is better than yours. That's not the point of anything I say, genius. But like an average dope you would equate Obama bashing with US bashing.

And the US has also yet to bring all it's people into the "19th" century as evidenced by you.


Wrong AGAIN, asshole. It's never been an "ours vs yours" discussion. That's all you have to fall back on now? Funnel the ugly truths away from the discussion? Of course. That's all you EVER do. Delusional fuckwit.

Again with the bashing of Obama/US. So easy to do when you make shit up, and ignore your countries OWN transgressions, isn't it?

While you're trying to spread your version of disinformation around the forum, there are 5 year olds being sold into the sex trade in India.SOLD.

Dolemite!
07-26-2009, 11:39 PM
Ok, you're hard of understanding, but that what's I was saying.

But you make it seems like its ours v/s yours. And uhh.... that's what you're doing now.

You have other faults in your country which I don't comment on, because it's not my business. I stick to whatever is done to fuck with the rest of the world, not the US social ills.