Cash for Clunkers

[Big Train]

Here is a perfectly good scenario. A DREAM scenario for Republicans. But...they are being fucking idiots. Instead of exploring the "Hey when you give Americans their money back, they USE IT immediately", these morons pick the "The government is already out of money with this program, how can they run healthcare" angle. Instead of sticking with the fundamentals of fiscal conservation, they go with this bullshit.

This is why I've been and will remain independent.

Republicans in this Congress are no better at seeing true stimulus than the boneheaded Democrats who got lucky with this.

August 2, 2009, 5:20 pm
‘Cash for Clunkers’ Becomes a Republican Target
By Janie Lorber

The government’s “cash for clunkers” program become the latest political flashpoint on Sunday, with Obama administration officials urging the Senate to approve more money for the initiative and Republicans raising concerns about it.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said the government would kill the highly popular incentive deal if the Senate did not follow the lead of the House, which voted Friday to give the program an additional $2 billion.

If the Senate did not approve that $2 billion in new financing, “we would have to suspend the program next week,” Mr. LaHood said in an interview on the C-Span program “Newsmakers.” He said that the administration would “continue the program until we see what the Senate does” but that he expected the current $1 billion pool for rebates to run out by the end of this weekend.

Meanwhile, dealerships around the country, where support for the program is high, are worried about the uncertainty over its future. Many have canceled hundreds of thousands of dollars in advertising. Others are hopeful that the government will come up with the money to extend the program.

Republicans say the problems with the program are another strike against the Obama administration as it pushes for a speedy overhaul of the health care system that would involve a government-run insurance program. They argue that government involvement in any industry is a recipe for disaster.

Senator Jim DeMint, Republican of South Carolina, said the “cash for clunkers” program was an example of the “stupidity coming out of Washington right now.”

“The federal government went bankrupt in one week in the used-car business, and now they want to run our health care system,” Mr. DeMint said in an interview on “Fox News Sunday.” “This is crazy to try to rush this thing through again while they’re trying to rush through health care, and they want to get on to cap-and-trade electricity tax. We’ve got to slow this thing down.”

On Friday a spokeswoman for Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, said Mr. McCain would lead a filibuster against the bill to give the program more money.

“Within a few weeks we will see that this process was abused by speculators and people who took advantage of what is basically a huge government subsidy of corporations that they already own,” Mr. McCain told Fox News last week.

Mr. McCain may have some support from Democrats who are also feeling skittish about the program and its potential cost. In a tweet on Friday morning, Senator Claire McCaskill, Democrat of Missouri, said she would “vote no on any extension” of the clunkers program, saying the “idea was to prime the pump not subsidize auto purchases forever.” A few hours later, she added that she would need to review the details of the House bill and how the program was working.

Reports from disgruntled car dealers about problems with the program have underscored its troubles. The government-run Web site Cars.gov has received two million hits and has repeatedly crashed, preventing many dealers from plugging in their information to process the rebates. Mr. LaHood said Sunday that the government was working to fix those glitches as well as “some bureaucratic problems” with processing mounds of paperwork.

In addition, dealers must destroy the old engines of cars being turned in before the government will reimburse them for the $3,500 or $4,500 discount they give the customer for buying a new, more-efficient vehicle. The Times’s Katharine Q. Seelye has captured the “laborious and potentially dangerous” car-crushing process on video.

Furthermore, some critics have noted that the requirement to demolish old engines could reduce their availability at junkyards, which could prevent people who cannot afford any kind of new car, rebate or not, from fixing up old vehicles. That has bolstered criticism from the right that the program was intended for “limousine liberals.”

Speaking on “Fox News Sunday,” William Kristol, the conservative editor of The Weekly Standard, said the rebates were going to middle-class people who would have eventually bought a new car anyhow.

Instead of helping the legions of unemployed, the money is going to a “bunch of upper-middle-class people who have some cars sitting around from 12 years ago,” Mr. Kristol said. “Now they’re just accelerating their purchase to get 4,500 bucks.”

[bueno bob]

God forbid something kick the economy in motion. What could they have to bitch about then? I mean, other than the differential between "Birth Certificate" and "Certificate of Live Birth"?

[hideyoursheep]

My rides aren't going anywhere.

Nothing new has impressed me to even consider.

[Big Train]

Agreed.

More importantly, there is a perfect example to keep the party "message" intact and they chose to step all over it.

If Bush's tax refunds were sound, this should be even more so. However, by just harping on it being poorly run, they are also saying this is bad government, when in fact it is not.

[ELVIS]

Cash for clunkers...:rolleyes:

Listen...the $4500 you are supposedly getting is money that each of us has already paid to the Government...

Then, they send these care to China and elsewhere (which effects our steel industry) and they turn them into more crap to sell back to us...

Also, the majority of these "clunkers" are most likely very usably cars that many Americans want and depend on...

It's a lose lose situation anyway you look at it...


So, how many strikes is that for Obama ??

I think he's finished...


:elvis:

[bueno bob]

Cash for clunkers...:rolleyes:

Listen...the $4500 you are supposedly getting is money that each of us has already paid to the Government...

Then, they send these care to China and elsewhere (which effects our steel industry) and they turn them into more crap to sell back to us...

Also, the majority of these "clunkers" are most likely very usably cars that many Americans want and depend on...

It's a lose lose situation anyway you look at it...


So, how many strikes is that for Obama ??

I think he's finished...


:elvis:

Dude, no. My next door neighbor did it, traded in a gas swallowing hog that was costing him more to keep on the road than it EVER should. But guess what? With his new baby girl, he HAD to keep pouring money into the piece of shit in order to get back and forth to work on a daily basis. No alternative. Until now.

And it worked out GREAT. Now he's gotten rid of that hunk of garbage, has reliable transportation back and forth and can actually get through DEQ's emissions control without having to stretch out his trip permits and run the risk of running out of permits and he also doesn't have to run the risk of losing his job if he ever got pulled over for expired tags - since the shitheap couldn't get through DEQ without him dropping another $900 on it that he couldn't afford.

Pros - got rid of the old car, got a credit to a new one, doesn't have to worry about DEQ, has maintained his job security and can continue to provide for his new baby.

Cons - Barack Obama is an asshole, right?

Yeah, dude, everybody loses here don't they?

Please. The one area where you're correct is that the $4500.00 IS money we've already paid the government. Isn't it time we actually got something OUT of what we pay into the government?

Christ... :rolleyes:

[lesfunk]

Dude, no. My next door neighbor did it, traded in a gas swallowing hog that was costing him more to keep on the road than it EVER should. But guess what? With his new baby girl, he HAD to keep pouring money into the piece of shit in order to get back and forth to work on a daily basis. No alternative. Until now.

And it worked out GREAT. Now he's gotten rid of that hunk of garbage, has reliable transportation back and forth and can actually get through DEQ's emissions control without having to stretch out his trip permits and run the risk of running out of permits and he also doesn't have to run the risk of losing his job if he ever got pulled over for expired tags - since the shitheap couldn't get through DEQ without him dropping another $900 on it that he couldn't afford.

Pros - got rid of the old car, got a credit to a new one, doesn't have to worry about DEQ, has maintained his job security and can continue to provide for his new baby.

Cons - Barack Obama is an asshole, right?

Yeah, dude, everybody loses here don't they?

Please. The one area where you're correct is that the $4500.00 IS money we've already paid the government. Isn't it time we actually got something OUT of what we pay into the government?

Christ... :rolleyes:
Glad I paid taxes to help your buddy get a deal on a car. Dick. Meanwhile I can't afford a skateboard let alone a nice new GM shitbox..

[Big Train]

I'm normally the guy who looks at it that way. In this case though, I see it differently. You are keeping factory orders up, people employed inventory turning and further stimulus dollars OUT of Detroit. It is in essence a tax cut, by providing INCENTIVE.

While this should not be done long, should be considered an extreme move and limited to Detroit, it is a PLUS move.

Sort of like that tax check Bush gave you, which you should have bought your skateboard and some new shoes with.

[Big Train]

Cash for clunkers...:rolleyes:

Listen...the $4500 you are supposedly getting is money that each of us has already paid to the Government...

Then, they send these care to China and elsewhere (which effects our steel industry) and they turn them into more crap to sell back to us...

Also, the majority of these "clunkers" are most likely very usably cars that many Americans want and depend on...

It's a lose lose situation anyway you look at it...

I think he's finished...


:elvis:

So, how many strikes is that for Obama ??

What exactly are you getting at here?

That the money spent is destroying used cars? They would be scrapped eventually anyway.

Are they selling the scrap for free? No. Should they sell only to US Steel plants?

You make it seem like they are "Taking" cars away from Americans. Cars Americans are gladly giving away. This affects the used car supply so little to begin with and what effect it does have is actually positive. By losing the shitboxes, the overall quality of the pool of used vehicles goes up and the price of the better quality used car goes down as there is a glut in supply.

I don't get your objection on any level at all.

[ELVIS]

I'm not talking about "shitheap" vehicles...

Good for him for getting the $4500 (BTW, he has already paid more than that, regardless) for junk...if you don't know that, you're an idiot...

But from what i've seen, a great percentage of these cars GIVEN AWAY to the government, are perfectly fine, operational vehicles! I have a big problem with that...

If you can get $4500 for a real 300,000 mile clunker that is bought and paid for, than good for you...


IT'S A SCAM!

[Big Train]

UM yea, you can. if it has 300k regardless of how well it runs, its a shitbox. If you don't understand that you are an idiot.

They can be perfectly fine operational vehicles, but old enough to be replaced. They are being given the opportunity to do so and are taking advantage of it. The problem is what exactly?

It's a scam you say. I'm just asking you to explain what is scammish about it.

[ELVIS]

What exactly are you getting at here?



Are you wasted on crack ??

Obama has accomplished absolutely NOTHING aside from spending OUR money...

And don't give me the Obama inherited the Bush scenario because it doesn't fly...


Obama has been placed into his position to drop us to our knees, and if we don't wake up now, he will succeed!

We will be a thirld world country...


Is that harsh enough tro get your attention ??

I can go further!


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

It's a scam you say. I'm just asking you to explain what is scammish about it.

Let's start with the dearliships that are not being reimbursed with the money they were PROMISED, by the Government!

[Big Train]

Are you wasted on crack ??

Obama has accomplished absolutely NOTHING aside from spending OUR money...

And don't give me the Obama inherited the Bush scenario because it doesn't fly...


Obama has been placed into his position to drop us to our knees, and if we don't wake up now, he will succeed!

We will be a thirld world country...


Is that harsh enough tro get your attention ??

I can go further!


:elvis:

Oh no, insults!! Yea, that was harsh. And your shooting guns too...damn, I'm better check myself...

My comments were limited to the discussion at hand, Cash for Clunkers, not why that "half white motherfucker" sucks overall.

Calm yourself, focus on the issue at hand and give me a reasoned, intelligent, fact based response. That's all I'm looking for.

[Big Train]

Let's start with the dearliships that are not being reimbursed with the money they were PROMISED, by the Government!

Got proof of that anywhere, or is that what Jim Bob told you?

[OldNo.7]

I saw some slant eye just about to cry on the news because he didnt get his hand out before the money ran out.

"not fell we not get our money for krunker"

[Blackflag]

and limited to Detroit, it is a PLUS move.

That makes sense, but in reality, the program focused on foreign companies - by the fuel economy requirements. Makes no sense.

[Big Train]

Yea, and I'm sure it is teaching a good lesson, as it wasn't "Cash for new V-8's".

Well, here are the numbers.

The Ticker - Ford July Sales Up 2.3%, Juiced by 'Cash For Clunkers;' GM Plunges 19.4%, Chrysler Down 9.4% - Economy Watch   (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/economy-watch/2009/08/july_auto_sales_numbers_will_b.html?hpid=topnews)

UPDATED at 3:10 p.m. with all the majors reporting:

Ford reported that July auto sales were up 2.3 percent compared to July 2008, the automaker's first monthly increase since November 2007.

And it's clear that Ford is the runaway winner so far in the government's "cash-for-clunkers" program: Even with a $4,500 government voucher, July sales of General Motors vehicles plunged 19.4 percent.

This is despite GM's lightning-fast bankruptcy reorganization, despite the White House's firing of former chief executive Rick Wagoner, despite paring its many brands down to four, despite continued good critical marks for the Chevy Malibu and GM's Cadillac products.

Chrysler reported what can only be counted as a stupendously winning month: July sales were down only 9 percent compared to July 2008 and were up 30 percent compared to June 2009.

Chrysler was by far the weakest of the Big Three; last year and early this, Chrysler sales were plunging 40 percent, 50 percent compared to 2008. To drop only 9 percent is a clear win.

Still, the GM drop was not quite as much as Wall Street expected.

George Pipas, sales analyst for Ford, said on CNBC a few moments ago that the automaker felt like it was going to "fall short" of last year's July sales levels until the government's stimulus kicked in.

"Cash for clunkers put us over the top," Pipas said.

Sales of Ford, General Motors and Chrysler vehicles accounted for 47 percent of all "cash-for-clunkers" sales through August 1, the Transportation Department said.

Ford said sales of its core brands -- Ford, Lincoln and Mercury -- rose by 9 percent. Dragging down the overall number to 2.3 percent was diminished fleet sales and other poor performing brands.

Other July automakers's reports:

-- Toyota, the world's largest automaker, reported a 10.8 percent drop in July compared to July 2008. However, July 2009 sales jumped 27.7 percent compared to June of this year.

-- Honda U.S. sales were down 17.3 percent. So far this year, Honda sales are down 30.7 percent.

-- Volkswagen said U.S. sales were up .7 percent. "It was not by accident that Volkswagen was able to perform so well in the government 'Cash-for-Clunkers' Program," Mark Barnes, VW's U.S. chief operating officer said in a statement.

-- Germany's Daimler AG said U.S. sales fell by 24 percent in July, as evidently not a lot of clunkers are being traded in for a new Mercedes Benz. Interestingly, sales of Daimler's little Smart car plunged 45 percent.

-- Subaru reported that its July sales jumped by 34 percent, as the Japanese maker fuel-sipping imports benefited from cash-for-clunkers. Subaru sells very few vehicles in the U.S.; July sales totaled only 21,839.

July Auto Sales Numbers Juiced by 'Cash For Clunkers'

10:45 a.m.: July auto sales numbers will come out from manufacturers one by one today, and Ford -- amazingly -- is saying that it will report its first monthly sales increase in two years.

Chrysler, too -- the weakest of the Big Three -- says it is poised to report positive news.

But don't get too excited: This is just another incidence of fake money offering a Red Bull jolt to an ailing economy.

July auto sales have been juiced by the government's "cash for clunkers" $4,500 credit toward buying a new car by trading in your (qualifying) jalopy. Yes, these are real sales for the automakers and yes, there are real downstream benefits (parts makers and so on) but this does not represent the organic sales that come in a healthy economy.

This program has been so successful it burned through its initial amount of money and the Senate is poised to vote today to announce an additional $2 billion to the program.

The question is: What happens when "cash for clunkers" finally ends?

[bueno bob]

Glad I paid taxes to help your buddy get a deal on a car. Dick. Meanwhile I can't afford a skateboard let alone a nice new GM shitbox..

Who's fucking fault is that?

Maybe you need a better fucking job if you can't afford a fucking skateboard.

On top of that, YOU didn't pay any more in taxes to "help my buddy" than what HE did, so you can shove that argument right back up your ass where it belongs.

EVERYBODY pays taxes, not just YOU.

Well, unless you're a fucking church and exempt from such shit based on an ideal, but I digress...

[lesfunk]

you're mean

[Guitar Shark]

Calm yourself, focus on the issue at hand and give me a reasoned, intelligent, fact based response. That's all I'm looking for.

Good luck with that.

[bueno bob]

you're mean

I am bueno bob...

[thome]

The next stimulus has just been drafted by Obama,"Cash for your Clunker Guns".

First they want our ability to be independent, then they want our ability to defend it.

Let the Socialism begin.

[Dr. Love]

Cash for clunkers...:rolleyes:

Listen...the $4500 you are supposedly getting is money that each of us has already paid to the Government...

Then, they send these care to China and elsewhere (which effects our steel industry) and they turn them into more crap to sell back to us...

Also, the majority of these "clunkers" are most likely very usably cars that many Americans want and depend on...

It's a lose lose situation anyway you look at it...


So, how many strikes is that for Obama ??

I think he's finished...


:elvis:

So that's what FORD would be like if he were hard-right and couldn't type at all.

huh.

[twonabomber]

Glad I paid taxes to help your buddy get a deal on a car. Dick. Meanwhile I can't afford a skateboard let alone a nice new GM shitbox..

buy another bass lately? :D

of course you can probably write those off, huh?

[bueno bob]

The next stimulus has just been drafted by Obama,"Cash for your Clunker Guns".

Who told you that? Bill O'Reilly?


First they want our ability to be independent, then they want our ability to defend it.

Glenn Beck?


Let the Socialism begin.

I find it offensive that people call this "socialism". That's a Fox News talking point and it should be treated as equally relevant and important as, well, anything else they espouse.

Obama's far too moderate to be a true socialist.

[thome]

Harley Davidson has been offering a deal for over 10 months .

If you trade in your 07 or 08 Sportster you will get full factory $7999.00 FULL towards a larger more expensive bike.

If you want to take your 4500 $ clunker and go get a new payment added to your monthly nut go for it, dork.

The Harley deal is no bullsh!t. If you want a larger bike now is the time. It still means nothing more than a payment by YOU!



If you want to take your paid off clunker and go get a monthly $200.00 + increase in your debt for the next 6 years LOL do it ...LO fikkin...L.

In times of questionable income potentials and you are taking a risk that you will default in these times, and then you loose your credit and your new Caddy, slick rick!

Anyone has the freedom to make a bad decision, and it is nice that our president Mr. Obama wants you... his people... to do that, instead of saving and being warry.
If you are for this you are probably a car dealer.

[sadaist]

Dude, no. My next door neighbor did it, traded in a gas swallowing hog that was costing him more to keep on the road than it EVER should.

Cool. Tell your neighbor he's welcome. Since the money I work every day for helped pay for his new car. Funny, two years ago when I bought my truck no one was offering me assistance. So I paid for all of my car, and a portion of everyone who waited until now to buy a car under this program. Sounds fair.

I've driven crap vehicles before. I sacrificed and saved. Passed on concerts, restaurants, bowling, hell...anything to stash another $20 into the auto fund.

When will the program to help people buy more energy efficient appliances start? I need a new refrigerator and I want you guys to help me pay for it. I'd save on my own, but there's some new dvd's I want to buy. Thanks in advance.

[bueno bob]

If you want to take your 4500 $ clunker and go get a new payment added to your monthly nut go for it, dork...
If you want to take your paid off clunker and go get a monthly $200.00 + increase in your debt for the next 6 years LOL do it ...LO fikkin...L.

Well, I'm not doing it myself. My car is reliable and right now I have no need of another newer one (I do have a used Mazda that would qualify, but my primary vehicle is fine).

As far as new monthly payments are concerned, there's an angle to this that most naysayers are just simply overlooking:

A new car payment is not always that much. Depending on the condition of your older car, how much gas and oil it chugs and how much upkeep you need to make sure it keeps on the road, a car payment can actually be a better investment than the guessing game with your old vehicle. The last time I needed a major car repair, I was set back $1150.00. $1150.00 all at once just to maintain a job/income/life can be EXTREMELY detrimental to a working family of limited means. I mean, we're talking a complete CRASH of your life. Loss of transportation = loss of job = loss of income = regional city government assistance just to stay alive, eat food and keep the heat turned on, at least until A) the car can be fixed or B) other (more local) employment is gained and the family can get back on their feet. The loss of security caused by the loss of a vehicle, sometimes resulting in the loss of employment, can be EXTREMELY damaging to any family.

Cash for clunkers not only gives struggling families an alternative to running the risk of the above, assisting to keep employment (and thereby keep people off of public assistance), it also creates an environment where people are INTERESTED in purchasing vehicles again, which directly benefits (you got it) the auto industry, and therefore the American economy at large. It also helps by getting vehicles not good for road use and poor performing in emissions off of the road, which helps the environment as well.

This is a win/win for EVERYBODY.


Anyone has the freedom to make a bad decision, and it is nice that our president Mr. Obama wants you... his people... to do that, instead of saving and being wary.

Thome, most of the people taking this offer can't afford the necessary repairs to their vehicle and can't afford to save money anyway. As I've demonstrated, in many cases a monthly payment on a RELIABLE vehicle trumps "being wary" and hoping for the best. ESPECIALLY when the livelihood of ANY family depends on reliable transportation.


If you are for this you are probably a car dealer.

Nope, just a realist who doesn't buy the bullshit that Fox News spews.

[sadaist]

And it's amazing how the government program ran out of money only 8% into the scheduled time for this. Can't wait for them to be running my health care. Should be smooth sailing.

[thome]

Who told you that? Bill O'Reilly?



Glenn Beck?



I find it offensive that people call this "socialism". That's a Fox News talking point and it should be treated as equally relevant and important as, well, anything else they espouse.

Obama's far too moderate to be a true socialist.

Grain O' Salt, brother man.

I have seen O'Rielly maybe three times all the way thru. I usually last 3 min with him once a week if that, if he has those -Hot Blondes- on the panel and when I get finished oogl'n them cans and understand the language I turn the channel.


Never seen Glen Beck..no nothing ../?

Anyone who was against the liberal agenda and has points against democratic socialism ....to everyone... anymore, is a "Fox News Cronie"...

I wonder what I was befor "Faux" news as it is called here ...what 10 years ago...? So trendy you all are with you cool gay spellings, LIKE ME!

You all can't be all bad..lol

Can I be called that name ....??

What I was labeled as, before the invention of The Faux people swastika pin YOU MOTHERS KEEP PUTTING ON MY LAPEL!

Just kidding....... Keep the faith, save your money, that free toaster at "Bank Whatever" isn't free at all my brother.

:)

[bueno bob]

Cool. Tell your neighbor he's welcome. Since the money I work every day for helped pay for his new car.

I'll do nothing of the sort. You didn't do any more for him than what he did for himself, unless you're the ONLY one paying taxes.

That's such a bullshit argument. Fanciful, yes, but bullshit anyway.


Funny, two years ago when I bought my truck no one was offering me assistance. So I paid for all of my car, and a portion of everyone who waited until now to buy a car under this program. Sounds fair.

Same for me. You think you're alone in that boat? The world's out to get you? Again, my neighbor pays as much in taxes as you do. Unless you've tracked the serial number of your specific tax check and followed where it was distributed to (each and every penny), you don't have any fucking CLUE if he benefited from YOUR taxes.

If you wanted to go out and do the same thing yourself, would that make YOU the bad guy and HIM the guy that you took advantage of?

No.

Of course, if you don't like how your tax dollars are being spent, you could always refuse to pay. Until then, you're in no worse shape and being no more "abused" then anyone else in the country. You could, I suppose, one up it all by leaving the country in protest.


I've driven crap vehicles before. I sacrificed and saved. Passed on concerts, restaurants, bowling, hell...anything to stash another $20 into the auto fund.

I'm sure yours is a solitary case, too.


When will the program to help people buy more energy efficient appliances start?

As long as tax dollars are being returned to the American public in forms of assistance, RATHER than going to promote bullshit overseas war agendas, I'd be in favor of it.


I need a new refrigerator and I want you guys to help me pay for it. I'd save on my own, but there's some new dvd's I want to buy. Thanks in advance.

Working transportation is one thing. I suppose a refrigerator is probably another. If you're living in an apartment, than the apartment will provide or not - either way, it's not your concern, as per your rental agreement. If you own your own house and your refrigerator might die on you any day, and your entire sustenance depends on said refrigerator (cases will certainly vary), then there may be another case to be made for it.

In the meantime, go buy your DVDs. Get back to me when you're working poor and struggling with two jobs to put Macaroni & Cheese on the table every night, hoping to Christ that your car lasts you just a little while long so that you can maintain both jobs, and THEN maybe you'll have a point to make.

Of course, the point will STILL remain that tax dollars are going to the assistance of the American public, and I'll probably tell you the same thing.

[thome]

A $17,500 car costs the average dealer exactly $4500.00.

That is so convienient, a real deal.

They still make 10Grand + long term interests (medium actualy) or so and you will pay with interest about 29,000 over the 5 years.

Why don't they just offer new cars for 10,000 and no trade in money for your junker and they still make 5,500 on every sale.

WHY, because that would actually benefit us, that's why.

Like I said, if you want a pament for a vehicle that costs you 29,000 and does exactly the same thing (point A to point B) as the one you have now and probably cost you 800.00 a year in property taxes and repairs go for it.

The propety taxes on a junker I have as a fixer upper is 58.00 per year. Runs like a top look like sh!t till I get done with it.

The property taxes the first year on a new Toyota 4 wheel, is 1,600.00 and the next 1,200 and so on till ..... Any nice vehicle that hold it's resale value will never have less than 1,200.00 per year in tax alone.So to speak the decrease becomes minimal thru depreciation bla bla.//../.

[lesfunk]

buy another bass lately? :D

of course you can probably write those off, huh?

Actually I'm selling off gear to help make ends meet.

[Nickdfresh]

In every other country where "cash for clunkers" (one of the worst, most ineptly named pieces of legislative catch-phrases ever, it should be "cash for GUZZLERS"!), it has significantly helped the auto industry (specifically in the UK, France, and Germany) and allowed people on the fence unable to buy a new car to get one. The problem is that it was a great idea that was sort of botched, and they should have waited a bit until they had a chance to get the ducks in a row, and just provided more money from the beginning.

In any case, it has increased traffic significantly and gotten some rotten old leaking junk off the roads...

[thome]

In every other country where "cash for clunkers" (one of the worst, most ineptly named pieces of legislative catch-phrases ever, it should be "cash for GUZZLERS"!), it has significantly helped the auto industry (specifically in the UK, France, and Germany) and allowed people on the fence unable to buy a new car to get one. The problem is that it was a great idea that was sort of botched, and they should have waited a bit until they had a chance to get the ducks in a row, and just provided more money from the beginning.

In any case, it has increased traffic significantly and gotten some rotten old leaking junk off the roads...

Yeah Right.

Times are tough your headed for the poor house go get a new car and payment.

I call BS

It is sheep thinking lemmings, will go get a new car.

ALL CARS GUZZLE SOMETHING!

EDIT: TYPICAL BULLSH!T Save the world by getting in debt...shattapp!!!

[Nickdfresh]

I'm not talking about "shitheap" vehicles...

Good for him for getting the $4500 (BTW, he has already paid more than that, regardless) for junk...if you don't know that, you're an idiot...

But from what i've seen, a great percentage of these cars GIVEN AWAY to the government, are perfectly fine, operational vehicles! I have a big problem with that...

If you can get $4500 for a real 300,000 mile clunker that is bought and paid for, than good for you...


IT'S A SCAM!

"Given away to the gov't?" WTF are you talking about? The cars are made inoperable, then scrapped at salvage yards with their steel being smelted. While there have been some decent vehicles that probably work perfectly, there are also rotten pieces of junk contaminating the environment by leaking oils and contributing to smog and using up fossil fuels that are being taken off the road and replaced with ULEV engines and people are learning to make do with a smaller hatchback and sedan as a small family vehicle rather than using the excuse of having a couple of kids to buy enormous SUVs to compensate for small penises and insecurities. Many of these vehicles also would have needed repairs to stay in running condition, and often owners completely ignore that anyways...

[bueno bob]

The property taxes on a junker I have as a fixer upper is 58.00 per year. Runs like a top look like sh!t till I get done with it.

Not everybody can repair their own vehicle, thome. Not everybody can afford to have a car die on them with a blown headgasket or a stripped transmission. Paying over a thousand dollars for repairs can be catastrophic for some families. Hell, paying $300.00 for repairs can be catastrophic. And how do you get the money when you absolutely need it and nobody can help and you've got pennies left to last you for two days before you get your next paycheck? Payday advances? It'll work, but once they get their hooks in you, that's even MORE detrimental.

The bottom line is reliable transportation is a NECESSITY, especially to working families with kids. You can't just fall back on write-offs like "Well, save your money!" either because many working class people CAN'T. The cost of living in proportion to the rate of pay is exponentially out of alignment and everybody knows it.

This program is designed to help people with the burden, get the economy in order by influencing vehicle sales (which has been wildly successful) and may even help to stabilize emissions control as a distant third.

Numbers won't always agree in every case; in some cases, it probably IS better to keep a so-so car in the hopes that it won't run into a life threatening problem. But that's up to individual families to figure and decide for themselves. It can't be used as a be-all end-all to say why the program sucks. Everybody is different and every situation is different, but having been there myself once (and knowing people who are STILL in it), I can certainly identify with the need and the benefits.

Were it four years ago, I'd have done it myself.

[thome]

"Given away to the gov't?" WTF are you talking about? The cars are made inoperable, then scrapped at salvage yards with their steel being smelted. While there have been some decent vehicles that probably work perfectly, there are also rotten pieces of junk contaminating the environment by leaking oils and contributing to smog and using up fossil fuels that are being taken off the road and replaced with ULEV engines and people are learning to make do with a smaller hatchback and sedan as a small family vehicle rather than using the excuse of having a couple of kids to buy enormous SUVs to compensate for small penises and insecurities. Many of these vehicles also would have needed repairs to stay in running condition, and often owners completely ignore that anyways...

I am suspecting someone is proxy posting in Nicks name the above statement is so fukking retarded I just must believe it was a crime somehow.

[Nickdfresh]

And it's amazing how the government program ran out of money only 8% into the scheduled time for this. Can't wait for them to be running my health care. Should be smooth sailing.

The government didn't account for greedy dealers jumping the gun and (in some cases illegally) writing deals in early July. So, many of the Cash for Clunker cars sales were actually completed prior to the program taking effect officially on July 24th...

Secondly, a billion was a drop in the bucket with most countries previously initiating such programs at proportionally higher levels of funding initially as there was bound to be an initial surge that would slow down over time...

[Nickdfresh]

Yeah Right.

Times are tough your headed for the poor house go get a new car and payment.

I call BS

Your head is filled with BS. No one said anything about a false choice of "poor house" or new car.


It is sheep thinking lemmings, will go get a new car.

ALL CARS GUZZLE SOMETHING!

EDIT: TYPICAL BULLSH!T Save the world by getting in debt...shattapp!!!

Why don't you go guzzle some more cheap beer, dummy...

[bueno bob]

Secondly, a billion was a drop in the bucket with most countries previously initiating such programs at proportionally higher levels of funding initially as there was bound to be an initial surge that would slow down over time...

Exactly. Everything new, especially new and on this type of level, is going to generate a high level of interest right out of the gate.

JJ Abrams version of "Star Trek" isn't filling theaters now, either, but it certainly did on opening Friday...

[thome]

Not everybody can repair their own vehicle, thome. Not everybody can afford to have a car die on them with a blown headgasket or a stripped transmission. Paying over a thousand dollars for repairs can be catastrophic for some families. Hell, paying $300.00 for repairs can be catastrophic. And how do you get the money when you absolutely need it and nobody can help and you've got pennies left to last you for two days before you get your next paycheck? Payday advances? It'll work, but once they get their hooks in you, that's even MORE detrimental.

The bottom line is reliable transportation is a NECESSITY, especially to working families with kids. You can't just fall back on write-offs like "Well, save your money!" either because many working class people CAN'T. The cost of living in proportion to the rate of pay is exponentially out of alignment and everybody knows it.

This program is designed to help people with the burden, get the economy in order by influencing vehicle sales (which has been wildly successful) and may even help to stabilize emissions control as a distant third.

Numbers won't always agree in every case; in some cases, it probably IS better to keep a so-so car in the hopes that it won't run into a life threatening problem. But that's up to individual families to figure and decide for themselves. It can't be used as a be-all end-all to say why the program sucks. Everybody is different and every situation is different, but having been there myself once (and knowing people who are STILL in it), I can certainly identify with the need and the benefits.

Were it four years ago, I'd have done it myself.


I hear you, but most people will be talked into buying the showroom floor model and way out of thier price range .

Due to -sales commission- salesmen, who could give a fukk about nelly's mom's need for a lexus to drive the kids to school in instead of that 5 to 10 year old mini-van.

[thome]

Your head is filled with BS. No one said anything about a false choice of "poor house" or new car.



Why don't you go guzzle some more cheap beer, dummy...

You Buy'n, richie rich payment stimulo's man..?

[Nickdfresh]

I am suspecting someone is proxy posting in Nicks name the above statement is so fukking retarded I just must believe it was a crime somehow.

At least I know how to spell "fucking," as you're a fucking douchebag. Maybe someday, they'll have a 'cash for trailers' program -and then you can get a new house!

[sadaist]

Unless you've tracked the serial number of your specific tax check and followed where it was distributed to (each and every penny), you don't have any fucking CLUE if he benefited from YOUR taxes.



If he benefited from government money, then he benefited from MY tax dollars (and every other person that pays taxes). No two ways around that. Your argument is ridiculous. So according to you I should either pay my taxes & shut the fuck up about how they are spent....or, if I don't like what's being done with them just don't pay them at all and suffer the long arm of the law.

How ironic would that be? I go to jail for not paying my taxes....and your taxes go up to pay for my incarceration, health care & meals.




Get back to me when you're working poor and struggling with two jobs to put Macaroni & Cheese on the table every night, hoping to Christ that your car lasts you just a little while long so that you can maintain both jobs, and THEN maybe you'll have a point to make.


And you know my current & past financial situations how?




As long as tax dollars are being returned to the American public in forms of assistance, RATHER than going to promote bullshit overseas war agendas, I'd be in favor of it.


This begs the question, how much "assistance" would the American public need if the government didn't take so many taxes?

[Nickdfresh]

You Buy'n, richie rich payment stimulo's man..?


You really have a hard on tonight, don't we, old man?

[Nickdfresh]

....

This begs the question, how much "assistance" would the American public need if the government didn't take so many taxes?


Or how many taxes from the middle classes would the gov't need if they actually made corporations pay their fair share (other than in bribing congress)...

[thome]

I bet I have bought more rounds for th'house for my fellow humans (stimulate the world baby) than all beers, you have ever seen.

Why don't you go buy a car for Nelly's, mom and stop trying to tell her to increase her debt, during a depressed time in our social financial matriculation.

[bueno bob]

I hear you, but most people will be talked into buying the showroom floor model and way out of their price range.

A few years ago, I might have agreed with that. Based on today's economy though, people are much more hesitant to spend money on anything. Sales of all forms are down; this is a bonus incentive to buy, sure, but I do think people tend to err more on the side of caution these days. I certainly don't have the statistics to prove that, but the amount of people throwing money around has certainly gone down a tremendous amount.

I tend to give people more credit than they deserve, though...really, this IS a matter of personal responsibility. Hopefully the housing crisis has taught Americans a little something about that.


Due to -sales commission- salesmen, who could give a fukk about nelly's mom's need for a lexus to drive the kids to school in instead of that 5 to 10 year old mini-van.

But there's nothing new about that...car salesmen have been sharks from the time that cars were invented...

[thome]

You really have a hard on tonight, don't we, old man?


I am feeling rather "Typee".

[thome]

Your head is filled with BS. No one said anything about a false choice of "poor house" or new car. .


But Nick, Nelly's... little Nelly's Mommie, can't affors to pay for repairs on her old clunker, but Obama wants her to aquire and 200.00 a month payment for the next 5 years.

He is a real hero,,,,,,, how about this FUKK HIM and This Idea!

[sadaist]

Secondly, a billion was a drop in the bucket



This mentality is scary as fuck. One thousand million dollars thought of as "a drop in the bucket". It's so easy to not think about how large a number we're dealing with when all it really is to most people is the difference of an M, B, or T at the beginning of the word.

$1,000,000,000

Average salary of $50,000 annually = 20,000 years to earn one billion dollars.

So many things get passed, slipped into bills, earmarked, etc... because they are just a drop in the bucket. Just think how much would be in that bucket if we didn't waste all of those drops.

[bueno bob]

If he benefited from government money, then he benefited from MY tax dollars (and every other person that pays taxes). No two ways around that. Your argument is ridiculous.

I think it's ridiculous that you're taking personal responsibility for his new vehicle. He's just as responsible as you and I, and if I don't mind and he doesn't mind, I guess that leaves you the odd duck out. I mean, IF your money DIRECTLY went to his car fund (which I doubt).

I don't think any position could be more outlandish than yours, personally.


So according to you I should either pay my taxes & shut the fuck up about how they are spent....or, if I don't like what's being done with them just don't pay them at all and suffer the long arm of the law.

You could also write your congressman...


How ironic would that be? I go to jail for not paying my taxes....and your taxes go up to pay for my incarceration, health care & meals.

More likely than not, you'd be fined and your paycheck would be garnished. The government has more interest in you continuing to work than in sending you to jail where you'll make a handful of bucks a day making license plates. Well, depending on how willing you are to be congenial with them, anyway.

My point in telling you all of the above was to say that, instead of bitching incessantly, you DO have options...


And you know my current & past financial situations how?

I'm guessing we've all been in the same boat at some point or another. Some people are worse off than others. Some people remember what it's like. Others don't. Frankly, I could care less about your current and past financial situation, but your lack of empathy towards those desperately in need of a program like this speaks a lot to me. Perhaps you meant something else?


This begs the question, how much "assistance" would the American public need if the government didn't take so many taxes?

Don't mistake me - I'd just as soon see taxes of all sort done away with permanently. Until then, the best available option for the working American public is to support the programs that support them. Seems pretty simple to me.

[sadaist]

Or how many taxes from the middle classes would the gov't need if they actually made corporations pay their fair share (other than in bribing congress)...

How many of those middle class people would still have jobs if the corporations were taxed what many believe is their "fair share"?

The powers that have been running California the last 25 years have been trying that. Now when I phone a service center it's in India.

[bueno bob]

But Nick, Nelly's... little Nelly's Mommie, can't affors to pay for repairs on her old clunker, but Obama wants her to aquire and 200.00 a month payment for the next 5 years.

He is a real hero,,,,,,, how about this FUKK HIM and This Idea!

Thome, AGAIN, often times $200.00 a month is a FAR better option than a sudden $1500.00 repair fee that they CAN'T pay. And WON'T be able to pay because Nelly's mom just lost her job because she can't GET to it anymore.

Let it sink in.....

[Nickdfresh]

Jane, you ignorant slut!

You have no idea what you are talking about...


I hear you, but most people will be talked into buying the showroom floor model and way out of thier price range .

What's in the "price range?" Whose fault would that be? The whole program is about fuel economy, the most attractive vehicles under the program are actually the least expensive ones such as subcompacts and compacts --with midsize sedans cutting the rebate from $4500 to $3500 based on the net average of the gas mileage.

There's little incentive to buy anything other than four-cylinder economy cars, and maybe some small SUVs...


Due to -sales commission- salesmen, who could give a fukk about nelly's mom's need for a lexus to drive the kids to school in instead of that 5 to 10 year old mini-van.

Then Nelly's mom shouldn't be in a fucking Lexus dealer to begin with, and most of the salesmen there would probably ignore her if they thought there was the slightest chance she couldn't actually afford it. If you know anyone in car-sales, you'll find out that few salesmen make "commission" anymore on new cars, they make "minimum flats" (anywhere from $40-$150 for most cars depending on the dealership) as the invoice prices of all cars are clearly listed for each model on the internet. They then make bonuses based on numbers sold, accessory sales and other extras, and maybe some extra on whatever incentive the manufacturer is offering to get rid of certain models.

You have to sell a lot of cars to make anything worthwhile...

[thome]

A few years ago, I might have agreed with that. Based on today's economy though, people are much more hesitant to spend money on anything. Sales of all forms are down; this is a bonus incentive to buy, sure, but I do think people tend to err more on the side of caution these days. I certainly don't have the statistics to prove that, but the amount of people throwing money around has certainly gone down a tremendous amount.

I tend to give people more credit than they deserve, though...really, this IS a matter of personal responsibility. Hopefully the housing crisis has taught Americans a little something about that.



But there's nothing new about that...car salesmen have been sharks from the time that cars were invented...

Here is the basic model we got a deal rite..?/ Yeah Looks great ..you want the undercoating rite extra 250..., and you gotta have the leather right it... doesn't come with leather..?..and and .

Well, I gotta tell this car doesn't offer leather but the 510 right over her does let's go take a look, ....can you see my point?

I have bought a cheap Van once and almost got talked into buying a Supra for 50,000 buy the salesman.

I do see your point but mine is more depression era style in hard times knuckle down and stop spending. The country will recover without my 10,000 investment.

Obama is attempting to fool people into thinking they make a difference..and we don't not at this time at this level.

Our goverment is attempting to show no profit and increase it's debt, if they didn't do this they would have to stop asking for taxes alltogether and be paying us like a T-Bill. Due to propper finacial worth aquired over long term investing with our money.

Me and the Knight Templar know what's going on how's come all you all's so one dimen\sional...?lol

[thome]

Hey Nick, Invoice already has massive profit built in to the price.

You think invoice is what the dealer pays..lol

[Nickdfresh]

How many of those middle class people would still have jobs if the corporations were taxed what many believe is their "fair share"?

I don't know. But since corporate profitability has exploded in the last 30 years since they don't have to offer annoying things like oh, retirement pensions, yet middle class wages have remained virtually stagnate as CEO salaries have also exploded, it doesn't seem to fucking matter much, does it?


The powers that have been running California the last 25 years have been trying that. Now when I phone a service center it's in India.

Trying what? Preventing call centers from going to India? Taxing corporations? Really?

[thome]

Bob, I do understand that a new car will be maintenance free for maybe 4 years then tires then then... I do see your point .

[Nickdfresh]

Hey Nick, Invoice already has massive profit built in to the price.

You think invoice is what the dealer pays..lol

Define "massive profit," pinhead. Invoice has a few hundred dollar$ built into it called "hold back." You probably pay more fucking markup on a furniture set from Raymour and Flanagan than you do on a $25,000 car. Even if you paid "sticker" (MSRP) on a $15-20,000 car, your salesperson would only receive a few hundred dollars in commission (sometimes not even that)..

And the dealer pays more than invoice, they have to pay for "floorplan," which is the interest they have to pay for the privilege of having manufacturer product on their lots...

[bueno bob]

Bob, I do understand that a new car will be maintenance free for maybe 4 years then tires then then... I do see your point .

Cool cool. In four years anyones situation can change. Mine did and now I have no need of a program like this.

There IS an advantage in it all to those who need it...and there are people who do.

[standin]

4 years of stable transportation in a family can be a big difference.


And no, not every family is going to be in even a good enough position to take advantage of this program. Many are still struggling to even get to that point.

[thome]

Here is a broad general statement.

You cannot get something for nothing.


If you think you are getting a better deal by a gift from the banks, odds are you are getting fukked and they are making money.

If Nelly's mon has her taxes up to date she can get 8000$ back in tax savings and pay to fix the car.

If she own/buying a home .

If not she be very carefull on looking a gift horse in the mouth.

The Americans have supported this government with our sweat and they will never stop asking for more.

If they turned a profit we would not have to pay taxes anymore.

So they don't.

[thome]

Define "massive profit," pinhead. Invoice has a few hundred dollar$ built into it called "hold back." You probably pay more fucking markup on a furniture set from Raymour and Flanagan than you do on a $25,000 car. Even if you paid "sticker" (MSRP) on a $15-20,000 car, your salesperson would only receive a few hundred dollars in commission (sometimes not even that)..

And the dealer pays more than invoice, they have to pay for "floorplan," which is the interest they have to pay for the privilege of having manufacturer product on their lots...


You are extremely wrong.

Factory sticker has perhaps a 300% mark-up same as Diamonds.

[thome]

Corporate Finance ............Bookmaking, ask that grungy bookie at the track he can tell you the way. Ask him about -The Juice-.

[Nickdfresh]

You are extremely wrong.

Factory sticker has perhaps a 300% mark-up same as Diamonds.


Oh fucking please! Feel free to support that with any sort of actual critical articles on the internet...

I guess that's why the domestic manufacturers are having such difficulties, idiot. Go back to huffing man-ass, you buffoon.

[thome]

Oh fucking please! Feel free to support that with any sort of actual critical articles on the internet...

I guess that's why the domestic manufacturers are having such difficulties, idiot. Go back to huffing man-ass, you buffoon.


Exactly, they won't lower thier profit margin.

I guess you ask 100 to 150 $ above you materials or expenses when you bill whoever the fukk you bill...LO Fikk'n L


Oh thomie the car companies only make 100 $ profit on each car.LOL

Factory invoice has inflation and dealer profit and sales commission built in..and many other $ in clear money .

Break even on a new 17,000 car is about 4500$.end of story.

[Big Train]

The bottom line is getting those vehicles moving OUT of the showrooms is the best thing we could do to "save the auto industry" if that was the intent (Instead of letting the companies die out). Anyone with an appreciation for mathematics can see that the 2 Billion in incentives is

a. Much cheaper than the tens of billions of aid we threw at them in the bailouts and
b. much more effective as it generated tens of billions of dollars in activity, some of it being actual PROFIT (what we used to have an appreciation for in this country).

The CONSERVATIVE (i.e. financially sound) move is the one that has been done with Cash for Clunkers. It's one very few "conservatives" actually seem to realize. Therefore, I'm simply baffled that they would attack it or not recognize it's benefits.

[standin]

Thome, this is not the the car dealers that practice predatory sales. For example off markets used dealers. They are already under prosecution. I recently had a file concerning those sorts come across my desk. I was surprised to say the least of the names popping up in the paper chase.


Those guys are predators. Those sorts sell the down payment. And the down payment covers the cost of the car. Those guys are out of the loop when this program is utilized.

But maybe, that is your real annoyance.

If I run across the file, I will drop the names. One was a national company. They based prices on what could be squeezed out of the consumer. And practiced predatory lending, by expecting default. Not only hurting the consumer but America.

They are criminals.

[standin]

And Thome, most car companies are not ran like they are.


You should find new associates if they are your exposure to auto-dealers.

I am not saying that the auto industry is a shining example of good consumer practices.
I didn't even last 2 months as sales in a Saturn dealership. But, not all dealerships have crazy markups, like some "sorts".

[thome]

The bottom line is getting those vehicles moving OUT of the showrooms is the best thing we could do to "save the auto industry" if that was the intent (Instead of letting the companies die out). Anyone with an appreciation for mathematics can see that the 2 Billion in incentives is

a. Much cheaper than the tens of billions of aid we threw at them in the bailouts and
b. much more effective as it generated tens of billions of dollars in activity, some of it being actual PROFIT (what we used to have an appreciation for in this country).

The CONSERVATIVE (i.e. financially sound) move is the one that has been done with Cash for Clunkers. It's one very few "conservatives" actually seem to realize. Therefore, I'm simply baffled that they would attack it or not recognize it's benefits.

Why does the auto industry need saving..?

Because you are told they do.

What is different now than 2 years ago..?

Nothing.

You are being set up.

The government takes our money from taxes and the investment profit they make on that lines in thier pockets then they take the base (our money) and use that to bail out the auto industry then they ask us to bail out the auto industry to save the auto industry. To build back our wasted money.

Start Bailing! someone you don't know and could give a fukk about you is not really sinking their 1 and 0's are are being cooked.

I pay taxes on everything I buy, and that is after I paid taxes on that very income/.THen you take a 40K hit on your market folio and it takes 10 years to get that back.

No one else is loosing anything at all, your car clunker scam is paying thier profits.

THEY loose nothing. The little guy gains little and that is all he understands.

Spent money is gone.

[hideyoursheep]

Why does the auto industry need saving..?

Because you are told they do.

What is different now than 2 years ago..?

Nothing.

They need "saving" because the idiots running them had the same mentality as your second question for too long.



BTW...guess what Chrysler decided to keep building for the next 2 years to hold them over until the first Fiat / Chrysler collaboration hits the market?

That's right, the V 10 gas guzzling Viper....along with the PT cruiser, which was originally due to be dropped as a model last year for good.

Looking at Big Train's breakdown of sales comparisons, it appears that even with "Operation Trade-In", no one wants to do business with the 2 companies that had the most interest in taking a government bailout. It's not out of fear they will go belly-up while your paying for your new ride, it's because the 2 companies are STILL too fucking stupid to realize that consumers aren't.

[Nickdfresh]

Exactly, they won't lower thier profit margin.

I guess you ask 100 to 150 $ above you materials or expenses when you bill whoever the fukk you bill...LO Fikk'n L


Oh thomie the car companies only make 100 $ profit on each car.LOL

Factory invoice has inflation and dealer profit and sales commission built in..and many other $ in clear money .

Break even on a new 17,000 car is about 4500$.end of story.

Oh, is that why almost ALL automakers, including perennial powerhouses like Toyota, are losing money?

Nice try at making shit up on the internet, 'handworker'...

[Nickdfresh]

Why does the auto industry need saving..?

....

Because not everyone wants to be $8-and-hour trailer trash, like you!

It's also in our absolute national security interests to maintain the ability and expertise of large scale industrial production domestically, especially since as fuel prices inevitably go up - the law of diminishing returns will begin to destroy fuel intensive trade where goods are made by low wage workers, and transported half-way around the world, and most production will again be local...

[standin]

Hmm, ya know Nick I was just wondering about something close to that this morning.....

Why would production jobs be sent to China instead say Mexico. There is far less transportation costs involved with Mexico production. And in a way it would be keeping it in the compound so to speak.

[sadaist]

You guys are both correct with the $200 markup and the $4500 markup. If you just go in to buy a new Chevy, pay sticker price and anything else the dealer charges, the dealership will make a tidy little profit off of you. However, if you do your homework and are a bit thick skinned...that's where haggling comes in. Employees typically pay cost +10 for cars & parts. That means whatever the dealer pays for the item, employees can purchase for only 10% more. In many cases this is only $100-$200. A knowledgeable buyer can get a dealer down to the employee price on a vehicle.

Sometimes they'll let last years model go for nothing more than the $200 commission to the sales team because they have quotas to fill or they won't get all the new models they would like to carry. So timing, knowledge, and a bit of grinding will get you the low end of the scale. Just going in and buying a car at sticker gets you the high end.

In the end it doesn't really matter to most dealerships if they make money selling the cars. Their bread & butter comes from service and the parts department. Last time I actually did a study (although it was just two dealerships) parts department was over 75% of the dealerships income base. Remember, they don't just sell to customers who walk in. They also sell parts when you get your car repaired there. They also sell factory parts to many other repair centers throughout the city or county and typically have two full time parts drivers delivering them all day. The markup on factory parts is similar to retail stores, around 100-150%. They pay $5 for a plug, then sell it for $10-$12. Not much? Wait until you need a transmission or engine.

Some of the larger dealerships also have their own financing. Even more incentive to get you into that new vehicle and not make any money right off the bat. They'll more than make it up in the next five years on your finance charges & interest rates. I won't even get in to vehicle leasing.

Selling the cars is not where profits are made on the dealership side.

[Big Train]

Why does the auto industry need saving..?

Because you are told they do.

What is different now than 2 years ago..?

Nothing.

You are being set up.

The government takes our money from taxes and the investment profit they make on that lines in thier pockets then they take the base (our money) and use that to bail out the auto industry then they ask us to bail out the auto industry to save the auto industry. To build back our wasted money.

Start Bailing! someone you don't know and could give a fukk about you is not really sinking their 1 and 0's are are being cooked.

I pay taxes on everything I buy, and that is after I paid taxes on that very income/.THen you take a 40K hit on your market folio and it takes 10 years to get that back.

No one else is loosing anything at all, your car clunker scam is paying thier profits.

THEY loose nothing. The little guy gains little and that is all he understands.

Spent money is gone.


Man, where do you start with this.

They need saving because I don't want to carry the states of Michigan and Kentucky on the federal back because it can't provide jobs for itself.

Let's review:

1. I was FOR them going under and starting over. Check all the old threads.

2. Once the government decided to get into the game via the bailout (of which I disagreed), the prudent move was to get them stable and turn them around. As an investor, if the money is already sunk, it's about getting it back out. That means doing what has to be done to get things moving. Cash for Clunkers is genius in that respect.

3. Cash for Clunkers gets the objectives and sets the incentives to get cars moving off lots. Ford is the best positioned as it has the right cars and didn't take bailout cash. GM and Chrysler are getting SOME positive benefit, but they are now building for the future based off the current demand in the market Cash for Clunkers is building.

Last I checked, you aren't the only one paying taxes. OUR money is sunk in the car companies. OUR money is at risk. Not taking the right action to get OUR money back is stupid.

[Nickdfresh]

...

In the end it doesn't really matter to most dealerships if they make money selling the cars. Their bread & butter comes from service and the parts department....

True. They also make their money selling used cars as there is vastly more profit (and commission) on a used vehicle than a new one. And don't forget the classic F&I thing, where you get sold all of the add-ons such as "rustproofing" and the dealership makes bank on percentages for loans, warranties, etc...


Some of the larger dealerships also have their own financing. Even more incentive to get you into that new vehicle and not make any money right off the bat. They'll more than make it up in the next five years on your finance charges & interest rates. I won't even get in to vehicle leasing.

Selling the cars is not where profits are made on the dealership side.

True to an extent, but owners can get big yearly bonuses from manufacturers if they sell a certain quota of cars which can be big money (for them).

[Nickdfresh]

...
Last I checked, you aren't the only one paying taxes. OUR money is sunk in the car companies. OUR money is at risk. Not taking the right action to get OUR money back is stupid.

Not too mention that people are still paying state sales taxes on all of the price, including the $3500/4500 rebate portion...

[OldNo.7]

I heard this morning that only 42% of the cars sold under this program were from US auto makers. Uhhh that sucks.

[sadaist]

I heard this morning that only 42% of the cars sold under this program were from US auto makers. Uhhh that sucks.

Yes. Word coming in today is that 6 of 10 of the cars purchased were Toyota, Hyundai, Honda. Not sure how this is helping Michigan. Typical of how the government fucks up everything it touches. Bailout & assume ownership of automakers. Attempt to subsidize newly owned auto maker company. Instead end up subsidizing competitors.

[thome]

And the 4200 $ will be taxed as income on your taxes..? Yes / No?

If they don't reach 2 Billion in sales by friday they are going to stop the promotion. On the news earlier.

Save the America, BUY A CAR!

You got till friday. Then America is dead ...2 Billion?? that is what, like a pack of smokes to us rite? Then we, will give you some other stupid idea to get your money.,

2 Billion that should pay for one bridge's repair in oswego bumfukk rite..?

Or Chryslers yearly CEO and Board, pay income..rite?

[Blackflag]

I heard this morning that only 42% of the cars sold under this program were from US auto makers. Uhhh that sucks.

It's no surprise. Like I said earlier, the fuel economy requirements they put in the law was biased towards the foreign automakers. I think Ford and GM only makes one car each that meets the 28mpg requirement for $4500...and Chrysler none.

I know it's the Big 3's fault for not making small cars... but still - WTF? My tax dollars are a subsidy to Toyota now? WTF?

[btw - I took one of these deals. :)]

[sadaist]

I know it's the Big 3's fault for not making small cars...

Have you been to a grocery store, shopping mall, strip mall, Target, or elementary school parking lot in the last 10 years? Mostly BIG vehicles. Not because small ones weren't available, but because that's what people chose to buy. That's what they wanted.

[Nickdfresh]

Yes. Word coming in today is that 6 of 10 of the cars purchased were Toyota, Hyundai, Honda. Not sure how this is helping Michigan. Typical of how the government fucks up everything it touches. Bailout & assume ownership of automakers. Attempt to subsidize newly owned auto maker company. Instead end up subsidizing competitors.

All of the above have factories in the US, just like Ford and GM have ones in Mexico...

[Nickdfresh]

It's no surprise. Like I said earlier, the fuel economy requirements they put in the law was biased towards the foreign automakers. I think Ford and GM only makes one car each that meets the 28mpg requirement for $4500...and Chrysler none.

Not true at all. Both Ford and GM have the models and Ford actually made money, unlike just about all of the foreign BASED manufacturers....

The Focus, Fusion, Fiesta (if available yet), and four cylinder version of the Escape could all be bought with clunkers...


I know it's the Big 3's fault for not making small cars... but still - WTF? My tax dollars are a subsidy to Toyota now? WTF?

[btw - I took one of these deals. :)]

It's the Big Threes fault for not bringing some of the really good cars they've been making in Europe and Asia here to the US in favor of selling SUVs and pickups for higher profit margins...

[Blackflag]

Not true at all. Both Ford and GM have the models and Ford actually made money, unlike just about all of the foreign BASED manufacturers....

The Focus, Fusion, Fiesta (if available yet), and four cylinder version of the Escape could all be bought with clunkers...

The fusion doesn't get 28mpg, the Fiesta isn't sold here, and I was talking about cars, not the Escape. So if you want to buy a car and get $4500, Ford offers the Focus - that's it. GM has only one, also. Some piece of shit made by daewoo that I don't remember the name of.




It's the Big Threes fault for not bringing some of the really good cars they've been making in Europe and Asia here to the US in favor of selling SUVs and pickups for higher profit margins...

First, irrelevant to the topic. Either the legislation was designed to help the companies in this market or it wasn't.

Second, you have to stop harping about a $20k Diesel subcompact and comparing it to the small car market in the U.S. Give it up. The Fiesta is interesting, but it's not a silver bullet.

[WACF]

All of the above have factories in the US, just like Ford and GM have ones in Mexico...

Exactly...

Also...dealerships, regardless of what brand they sell will benefit also.

[Nickdfresh]

The fusion doesn't get 28mpg,

The hybrid does.


the Fiesta isn't sold here,

It will be soon, in fact I believe it is here this month. I've seen the promo launch demo cars (leased to contest winners for free) on the roads here already...


...and I was talking about cars, not the Escape. So if you want to buy a car and get $4500, Ford offers the Focus - that's it. GM has only one, also. Some piece of shit made by daewoo that I don't remember the name of.

You can still get $3500 on many of their vehicles, and the domestics tend to have bigger rebates aside from the gov money which makes them plenty competitive in price...

GM also makes the Cobalt, not just the Aveo (Daewoo shit is right). And what are you comparing these too? Honda makes the Civic and the Fit, and the Insight isn't all that common or a big seller. Toyota makes the Corolla, Yaris, and yes the Prius, but again the hybrids are going to be more expensive...


First, irrelevant to the topic. Either the legislation was designed to help the companies in this market or it wasn't.

Well then it did, as it cut GMs and Chrysler's losses, just like it cut Toyota's losses. And Ford turned a profit...


Second, you have to stop harping about a $20k Diesel subcompact and comparing it to the small car market in the U.S. Give it up. The Fiesta is interesting, but it's not a silver bullet.

The Fiesta will be gas powered (in the US as we get one boring engine to Europe's three or four per model), and what the fuck are you talking about? I'm comparing it to like cars such as the Fit and Yaris. There are in fact a domestic competitor in nearly every class. The problem is that they are afterthought cars. For instance, the Focus is a totally different car in Europe as it was extensively upgraded in 2005 over there and is the darling of the critical, cynical UK auto press. The Focus here is essentially the same car since 1998 with slightly tweaked sheet metal. In a way, it makes the car far cheaper to produce and more profitable for Ford, but that is bad for long term viability.

The Cobalt is in the same basket, it's essentially the last generation Opel Astra from the late 1990s (Saturn uses the current one). GM could have done better than that, but chose the cheap and boring way out. It's still a cheap, serviceable car. But boring and outdated to be sure...

It should be said that both are correcting the above as the new Chevy Cruz (replaces the Cobalt) will be out next year and the third generation Ford Focus should be out next year and will be a far more stylish car with better powertrains...

[Nickdfresh]

Dem, GOP leaders: Senate will extend ‘clunkers’
But Republicans want to make changes to House-passed version of bill
The Associated Press
updated 4:07 p.m. ET, Tues., Aug 4, 2009

WASHINGTON - The Senate will vote to extend the popular "cash-for-clunkers" program before going home on Friday, Majority Leader Harry Reid declared Tuesday in a strong signal the government won't let the trade-in rebates die under the surging demand that has almost exhausted federal backing.

Reid's GOP counterpart, Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, predicted his party would not block a vote and "the matter will be completed." But Republicans' acquiescence depended on whether Reid would allow them to try to make changes to the House-passed version of the bill — and that could slow down the legislation anew.

"We'll pass cash for clunkers before we leave here," Reid told reporters after Democrats lunched at the White House with President Barack Obama, who has pushed hard for the Senate to add $2 billion to the program.

The House voted for the additional money last week.

Senate approval of a House-passed measure would send a $2 billion extension of the program to the White House for President Barack Obama's signature.

Uncertainties aside, the comments by Reid and Senate Republicans added up to a potential path to passage for legislation extending the program before it runs out of money at the end of the week, when the Senate recesses.

Back on Capitol Hill at midday, Sen. Jim DeMint, a conservative Republican from South Carolina, told reporters he did not intend to block the legislation.

"It's not my intention right now," he said.

Democrats as well as Republicans had raised concerns about an extension of the program, and it was not clear how those problems might be dealt with in future bills. Some lawmakers wanted tougher emissions standards, and some Democrats said the program should be limited to lower-income car-owners. Republicans raised concerns about cost.

Under the program, car-owners may trade in their old models for new cars that achieve significantly higher gas mileage. The federal subsidies total up to $4,500.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said the popular program has allowed thousands of Americans to buy a new car at time when the economy is still in a recession and needs a boost in consumer spending.

"I think the last thing any politician wants to do is cut off the opportunity for somebody who wants to get a rebate to buy a new automobile," said LaHood, a former Republican congressman from Illinois.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina predicted that the Senate would approve it. "I hope it comes out of the stimulus program and doesn't add to the debt," Graham said in an interview on NBC's "Today" show. "I think the Senate will act this week and get some of the clunkers off the road."

On Monday, the White House had warned that the program could come to an abrupt halt Friday if the Senate didn't act favorably on a bill passed by the House last week transferring $2 billion to the program from an economic stimulus account that had been set aside to subsidize renewable energy. The infusion of new money would carry the program through September, said White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs.

Through early Tuesday, the clunkers program had recorded 157,000 transactions worth $664 million. Eighty-three percent of the vehicles traded in were trucks or SUVs, while 60 percent of the vehicles purchased were passengers cars, for an average increase in fuel efficiency of 61 percent, he said.

Backers of the program picked up support from three other lawmakers who wanted the program limited to the purchase of even more fuel-efficient vehicles.

The fuel efficiency gains helped sway Democrats Dianne Feinstein of California and Chuck Schumer of New York, and Republican Susan Collins of Maine, who had complained that smaller rebates of $3,500 were going to people buying new cars that get as little as 4 more miles per gallon than the gas-guzzlers they traded in.

The three lawmakers said administration officials told them an additional 100,000 to 130,000 were expected to be processed to reach the $1 billion set aside. Another $2 billion was expected to generate the sale of about 500,000 more vehicles.

Car companies said the clunkers program was helping their bottom line. Ford said its sales rose 2.4 percent in July from the same month last year, its first year-over-year increase since November 2007, while Chrysler Group LLC posted a smaller year-over-year sales drop compared with recent months, helped by "clunkers" deals. Other automakers showed gains, giving ammunition to supporters of the car rebate program.

The Ford Focus is a leading replacement vehicle. General Motors Co., Chrysler Group LLC and Ford Motor Co. accounted for 47 percent of the new vehicles purchased.

Most consumers are buying smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles under the program, according to a list of the top-10 selling cars released by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which is administering cash for clunkers.

That includes Honda Civics, Toyota Corollas and Dodge Calibers. The Toyota Prius hybrid, which gets 46 miles per gallon according to EPA estimates, is the fourth best-selling car. There is one SUV on the list, the Ford Escape, which also comes in a hybrid model that can get up to 32 miles per gallon.

Many Republicans remained skeptical, raising objections to the additional costs amid questions about the management of the overwhelmed car rebate program. The GOP holdouts said the government has failed to provide enough data about how well the initial funding has worked and should wait until the fall to provide more.

Many dealers said they were concerned they could be on the hook for some of the money if the Senate fails to act. John McEleney, chairman of the National Automobile Dealers Association, said his organization was warning dealers there were no guarantees they would be reimbursed for sales they make under the program this week. McEleney said he has stopped offering cash-for-clunkers deals at his own Iowa dealerships.

But dealers are still trying to lock up more money. NADA and the American International Automobile Dealers contacted thousands of dealerships, telling them to bombard the Senate with phone calls and e-mails.

Car dealers typically support Republicans and are a potent political force, contributing more than $9 million to federal candidates for the 2008 elections.

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

GoogleAP (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32282686/ns/business-autos/)

[Nitro Express]

Cash for clunkers just gives people an excuse to get another loan to buy something they don't need with money they don't have. Gee. Isn't this what caused the problem in the first place?

[Nitro Express]

Can I trade my aging mother in law in for a hot babe?

[ELVIS]

Have you been to a grocery store, shopping mall, strip mall, Target, or elementary school parking lot in the last 10 years? Mostly BIG vehicles. Not because small ones weren't available, but because that's what people chose to buy. That's what they wanted.

Choice ??

You cannot have choice!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHA...

[ELVIS]

Cash for clunkers just gives people an excuse to get another loan to buy something they don't need with money they don't have. Gee. Isn't this what caused the problem in the first place?

Yep...

[Igosplut]

I saw a picture in the local newspaper today about the program showing some of the cars traded in. There were mostly S10 blazers, the small cherokee's, and a smattering of older Ford/Merc type station wagons. Hardly what I'd call "Gas Guzzlers" .

Not that there's none, but no full-size SUVs, large trucks (1/2 3/4 ton, ect) or anything that IMO would affect the impact on consumption. I think mostly this is more about getting the auto industry moving than anything else....

[ELVIS]

Yeah, like someone is going to give away their truck (that they may very well NEED) for $4500 that they have already paid (and are going to pay many times over) to the government in bailouts and taxes...

[Big Train]

Cash for clunkers just gives people an excuse to get another loan to buy something they don't need with money they don't have. Gee. Isn't this what caused the problem in the first place?

Yup just like those motherfucking veterans of WWII, getting those GI bills that funded the housing and baby booms of the 50's. I mean fuck, they couldn't afford it and there have been no positive benefits since.

The lesson is the government should never try to help anyone, ever.

[ELVIS]

At least not the Federal Government...

The bulk of the issues Oblamma has outlined (and is determined to do) are State Government matters...

Handing it over to the Feds equals step by step towards socialism...

[Big Train]

Healthcare (while I don't think we should get involved) is a national matter.
Industry is a national matter (the auto industry does operate across state lines).

While I agree with your theory of his purpose, I disagree that he is getting into state matters. The only local thing he has stepped in is the Cambridge Police Department.

[ELVIS]

Although many industries operate across state lines, they still must abide by each particular states laws...

The Feds only complicate matters and charge (or steal) big bucks...

[Blackflag]

Yup just like those motherfucking veterans of WWII, getting those GI bills that funded the housing and baby booms of the 50's. I mean fuck, they couldn't afford it and there have been no positive benefits since.

The lesson is the government should never try to help anyone, ever.

Yeah...a $4500 coupon for a new car is just like the GI Bill...:umm: This logic in this forum is mind-boggling.

[Blackflag]

Healthcare (while I don't think we should get involved) is a national matter.
Industry is a national matter (the auto industry does operate across state lines).

Just because something occurs in every state doesn't make it a national matter. Otherwise, everything is federal except for alligator populations. Health care for texans is texas' business. There's no reason somebody from Maine should pay for it.

[LoungeMachine]

Just because something occurs in every state doesn't make it a national matter. Otherwise, everything is federal except for alligator populations. Health care for texans is texas' business. There's no reason somebody from Maine should pay for it.

Naive.

We pay for other states' issues all the time.

Farm subsidies for example. EPA cleanups.

We're the United State for a reason.

:gulp:

[Igosplut]

Although many industries operate across state lines, they still must abide by each particular states laws...

The Feds only complicate matters and charge (or steal) big bucks...

Except Federal law trumps state laws

[Blackflag]

Naive.

We pay for other states' issues all the time.

Your argument is that something must be right, because we do it?



Farm subsidies for example. EPA cleanups.

You think that farm subsidies are good defense of federal redistribution of wealth?



We're the United State for a reason.

:gulp:

The states United for a common defense. That's the "reason" you're looking for.



And none of that addresses my point - that Texans' health care is the business of Texas.

[Big Train]

Yeah...a $4500 coupon for a new car is just like the GI Bill...:umm: This logic in this forum is mind-boggling.

In principle, yea it is. In that it allows the citizens to reach a little higher than they could. Not to mention all the side economic activity it creates. Ins, gas, repairs, ...all revenue generating operations based off getting that inital sale. I guess you see no economic benefit in keeping auto industry workers employed and not raiding Social Security, 401ks and unemployment.

But I guess it's just Michigan's problem right? Fuck em...

The LACK of logic is the problem in this forum.

[Blackflag]

I guess you see no economic benefit in keeping auto industry workers employed and not raiding Social Security, 401ks and unemployment.

Is that what I said? Because I thought I said a coupon for a new Focus has no similarities to the GI Bill whatsoever. Maybe you can respond to what I said and not dream up statements for me.

[Big Train]

When I respond "In principle" that should explain. But let me slow the bus down and back up so you can catch up...

The GI Bill provided benefits for American citizens. These benefits allowed said Americans to reach a little further economically. The result of these benefits (whether it was to go to school, buy a house or buy a car) enabled them to provide for their families a little better and set off a flurry of economic activity around those purchases.

In this modern version, it does not provide for an explosion of new activity so much as it helps keep existing activity fluid.

In both cases though, it provided side economic benefits beyond the initial purchase.

Thusly, it is just like the GI Bill.

[Blackflag]

These benefits allowed said Americans to reach a little further economically.

If that's the similarity between a coupon to buy a car and the GI Bill, then I guess the $4500 coupon is the same as...the GI Bill, is the same as social security, is the same as minimum wage, is the same as U.S. Savings Bonds, is the same as labor unions, is the same as the War on Drugs.

They all allow "Americans to reach a little further economically." Anything else you can think of that does that?

Thanks for that wonderful insight, jackass.

Now let me explain the differences: the GI Bill was compensation for military service. And it provided college education that added value to that person, and the overall economy, for the rest of that person's life. Also, tuition is realistically zero real cost, so that money was essentially just transferred to each college to benefit all students that attend.

On the other hand...somebody got $4500 off a new car. For doing nothing. He thanks you, and the dealership thanks you.

Great analogy.

[Big Train]

I thought it was and it is. You get upset and call me a jackass for responding to what you didn't say, but here you are doing the same.

ECONOMICALLY SPEAKING, which is all I've commented on, it provides similar stimulus to the GI Bill.

Again, if your bent that the car companies get bailouts, I'm with you. If your bent that it was not "earned", again I'm with you (It's being done to protect the governments investments).

However, to not acknowledge the DIRECT economic benefits it provides in the here and now, well thats just retarded.

[Blackflag]

ECONOMICALLY SPEAKING, which is all I've commented on, it provides similar stimulus to the GI Bill.

ECONOMICALLY SPEAKING, the clunker thing is an immediate cash injection into the economy. The GI Bill wasn't - it was a long-term investment in education, and the money got sunk into colleges.

So they're not even similar that way...

[Big Train]

From the linked article:

"Millions also took advantage of the GI Bill's home loan guaranty. From 1944 to 1952, VA backed nearly 2.4 million home loans for World War II veterans."


Right, so those 2.4 MILLION homes purchased via the GI bill had no direct injection into the ecomony.

Not everyone went with the school option.

For reference,
GIBILL History - (U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs) (http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/history.htm)

So they are not as far apart as you would assume.

[Blackflag]

From the linked article:

"Millions also took advantage of the GI Bill's home loan guaranty. From 1944 to 1952, VA backed nearly 2.4 million home loans for World War II veterans."


Right, so those 2.4 MILLION homes purchased via the GI bill had no direct injection into the ecomony.

Not everyone went with the school option.

For reference,
GIBILL History - (U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs) (http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/history.htm)

So they are not as far apart as you would assume.


Do I have to point out the obvious?

That's a loan guarantee. Not a home purchase. The government doesn't even put any cash out until if and when somebody defaults years in the future.

But you're right...that's just like giving somebody a check for $4500 for doing nothing so they can go buy a car today.

[Incidentally, I wonder what happens when a government spends years making sure every man, woman, child, and dog can own their own home? Take a look around.]

[Nickdfresh]

Cash for clunkers just gives people an excuse to get another loan to buy something they don't need with money they don't have. Gee. Isn't this what caused the problem in the first place?

Right. So the banks benefit by lending, the manufacturers sell units, and the dealers sell another car. So what? And no, what caused the problem is a credit meltdown. If people are qualified, why shouldn't they get a loan for a better car that uses less gas and leaks less fucking motor oil/power-steering fluid/transmission fluid/etc.?

[Nickdfresh]

Naive.

We pay for other states' issues all the time.

Farm subsidies for example. EPA cleanups.

We're the United State for a reason.

:gulp:

Not too mention that some states send the feds more money than they get back to begin with...

[Nickdfresh]

ECONOMICALLY SPEAKING, the clunker thing is an immediate cash injection into the economy. The GI Bill wasn't - it was a long-term investment in education, and the money got sunk into colleges.

So they're not even similar that way...

Oh fucking please, this distinction is utter shit! The "long term investment" led to a propagation of colleges and a massive expansion of campuses that benefited not just the academics. But it also benefited construction workers, local municipalities, and the businesses that are supported by the campus population. It was indeed immediate. And the massive schools that built their reputations and infrastructure on gov't money are any more deserving than the auto industry, how?..

[Big Train]

Do I have to point out the obvious?

That's a loan guarantee. Not a home purchase. The government doesn't even put any cash out until if and when somebody defaults years in the future.

But you're right...that's just like giving somebody a check for $4500 for doing nothing so they can go buy a car today.

[Incidentally, I wonder what happens when a government spends years making sure every man, woman, child, and dog can own their own home? Take a look around.]

You can, obviously, yes it was a guarantee. Did it allow people who otherwise couldn't afford it to get into a new home? Yes. Is that not the same here with these cars? And are you seriously comparing the GI Bill with "predatory lending practices"?

Do I need to point out the obvious? Nobody is "getting a check for $4500".

[Blackflag]

Do I need to point out the obvious? Nobody is "getting a check for $4500".

The dealership does, butt pirate.

[Big Train]

No citizen that you are so offended over this is though fuckface.

[sadaist]

Please stop with the GI Bill = Cash For Clunkers. GI Bill people earned.

[Big Train]

Yes sir. Any orders you say sir..

[hideyoursheep]

Please stop with the GI Bill = Cash For Clunkers. GI Bill people earned.

NOOOO!

I think they should continue...

BlackFag isn't a very strong swimmer, and I want to see how he executes the backstroke.:biggrin:

[Nickdfresh]

The dealership does, butt pirate.

And I'm told it's a bureaucratic nightmare and a complete pain in the ass with the paperwork for the dealerships. So yes, they're benefiting, but also devoting more resources to processing a program that might cease at any moment leaving them on the hook for up to $4500 in payment...

[thome]

And I'm told it's a bureaucratic nightmare and a complete pain in the ass with the paperwork for the dealerships. So yes, they're benefiting, but also devoting more resources to processing a program that might cease at any moment leaving them on the hook for up to $4500 in payment...

Yeah rite Punk&Fresh dealerships hate extra paperwork.

They hate the money that paperwork means.

Can't stand sitting at the desk all day pasting little sticky notes that say where the buyer should sign or initial.

It task's them to no end.

Fukk U assmunch, you know Dikk about nothing.

Nikiesukkaina3piece suit, making sh!t up again.

[Blackflag]

And I'm told it's a bureaucratic nightmare and a complete pain in the ass with the paperwork for the dealerships. So yes, they're benefiting, but also devoting more resources to processing a program that might cease at any moment leaving them on the hook for up to $4500 in payment...

Are you actually arguing that it's taking them more trouble than it's worth to get the $4500? Really? :hee:

And I already said I did one of these deals. It took them 15 mins to do it, not including the time it took to have somebody haul the old car away.

[LoungeMachine]

Senate Republican leaders are railing against the Cash for Clunkers Bill, calling the program a model of government inefficiency and out-of-control spending. Republicans have made it known that they do not like the Cash for Clunkers bill. John McCain certainly doesn't like the Cash for Clunkers bill – or anything good for anyone – and he is also a vocal opponent of the health care reform package, which is seen as a step towards universal health care, or Obamacare as it's described in the press. The Republican Party seems bent on putting short term loans and whatever else they can into stopping many of Obama's programs, regardless of how good of ideas they may be. The Cash for Clunkers bill (http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog/2009/08/03/cash-for-clunkers-bill/) might save people from needing no fax payday loans for a car payment, and stimulate auto sales if it's allowed to work.

Let alias guessing begin.....

:gulp:

[Big Train]

Lounge, what are the early odds in this horse race?

[LoungeMachine]

Katie is 6 to 5 and pick 'em

Fab pays 2 to 1

Joe Thunder is 3 to 1 [He used to refer to his "secretary" as Teena]

There's a few long shots still coming in over the wire....

:gulp:

[Blackflag]

I vote Thome.

[LoungeMachine]

I vote Thome.

No word salad gibberish.

:gulp:

Not sure rainman can turn it on and off that easily...

[FORD]

Looks like a spambot to me. Maybe not of Chinese origin this time, but synthetic pork by-product all the same.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Philippines ??

You're a long way from home, buddy....

[Nickdfresh]

Yeah rite Punk&Fresh dealerships hate extra paperwork.

I'm pretty sure there's enough already. Have you ever actually bought a car from a dealer?


They hate the money that paperwork means.

They don't hate the money. It's the uncertainty and mixed messages they hate. They'd rather just get money from a trade or customer down payment...


Can't stand sitting at the desk all day pasting little sticky notes that say where the buyer should sign or initial.

More like can't stand answering 80,000 questions from buyers who are often unqualified and get pissed off over it...


It task's them to no end.

Fukk U assmunch, you know Dikk about nothing.

Sorry, I'm not your sister...


Nikiesukkaina3piece suit, making sh!t up again.

Oh! How quaint! Is that a Van Hagar lyric?

Well, OUSUCKDICK2...

[Nickdfresh]

Are you actually arguing that it's taking them more trouble than it's worth to get the $4500? Really? :hee:

What I'm saying is that many dealers have opted out of the program due to numerous last minute changes and uncertainty over what deals would actually get funded...and the money wasn't really that big of a deal as it worked out to something of about 15 Cash for Clunkers deals per dealership. Hardly anything fucking gangbusters. With the extension, yeah its about 45 cars now which is a decent program and one they should have funded as such from the beginning...


And I already said I did one of these deals. It took them 15 mins to do it, not including the time it took to have somebody haul the old car away.

You traded or sold?

Fifteen minutes to "do it" provided all the correct documentation was present. And assuming that they knew they were going to get paid. Some dealers here were forcing customers to sign affidavits to affirm they would pay the $4500 if the money ran out...

[Nitro Express]

Yup just like those motherfucking veterans of WWII, getting those GI bills that funded the housing and baby booms of the 50's. I mean fuck, they couldn't afford it and there have been no positive benefits since.

The lesson is the government should never try to help anyone, ever.

The govt. isn't helping anybody when they have to make up the difference with a loan on something that depreciates as soon as you drive it off the lot. Cars are lousy investments. The GI Bill worked because hard working vets went to school on it and got better jobs and made more money. As far as housing goes Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae have been a disaster.

[standin]

Car are great investments when you are depending on a job to keep the family in health-care, food, shelter and everyday life extras.

A car you know will start in the mornings, not break down on the way, affordable in gas and is covered by warranty is a huge asset in most American homes.

You know, those that don't need that in their life should not be taken part in the program. And let those that do need such use it.

[GAR]

I am a fucking trollfuck

Who asked fucking you?

[GAR]

Car are great investments when you are depending on a job to keep the family in health-care, food, shelter and everyday life extras.

$4500 borrowed today in 5 years time at 5% interest equals $1243.27 of interest.

Why does Obama keep finding ways to spend borrowed money if he's not working hard to bankrupt the country?

If it's really cash for clunkers, you'd think a 1964 Ford Galaxie - something you'd REALLY want off the road - would qualify. But it doesn't!

What the fuck is up with that?

Plus, 64% of cars sold with the Clunkers benefit are foreign autos - cars that really don't need any added assistance - further hurting US automakers.

What the fuck is up with that?

2 billion dollars, over 5 years time, adds 550 million just in the interest alone to service the debt. What the FUCK?!?!

Fuck OBMAMANOMICS it's outrageously stupid!

[standin]

Google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us%3AIE-SearchBox&q=1243.27+%2F%285*12%29%3D&aq=f&oq=&aqi=)

money well spent toward stable reliable transportation.

[GAR]

I got my numbers from a compound interest calculator, since I ain't no good with them modern mathematics:

Compound Interest Calculator (http://math.about.com/library/blcompoundinterest.htm)

Your mileage may vary.

[standin]

Transportation costs.
And down time of transportation can cost a job.

[Seshmeister]

Germany who was the first country to come up with the 'cash for clunkers' idea came out of recession this week...

[thome]

So I am talking with this guy right...( I wrote this joke a couple days ago and I am not sure it is right, but maybe one of you an impove on it )

so this guy... and I are talking and he is making me admire his newest aquisition, a new Prias or Hybrid (pick any ) and he tells me all about "the car" and how he has "the car" in that makes him cool, and so I say, ahhh.................. thanks for all that............ahhhh... were are you headed now, and he sais,.............. to fill the car up with gasoline, because he has found out already, that...... that is the most cost effective and efficient way to drive around the extra 400 pounds of lead acid batteries installed in the trunk...

so do you get it..?

I will be signing autographs in............................... THE MEZZANINE!

[Nickdfresh]

It's all over Monday at 8: 00pm...

[bueno bob]

The owner of the local Wilsonville dealership had a statement in this mornings Oregonian...basically amounted to the fact that they're still waiting on government consideration about the Cash for Clunkers deal, and the government is completely swamped trying to process all the claims. He said they've been waiting for over three weeks for their paperwork to get processed, but it's a hard wait due to the current financial bind they're all in. Bottom line is cash.

Apparently the processing people have been great multiplied, but due to the overwhelming success of the program, it's still going to be a wait, and since their bottom line is cash...

[standin]

How many , like me, think this car will be a total fail in production, quality and sales ?

Chevy Volt | Electric Car - Future Cars | Chevrolet (http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do?seo=goo_|_2009_Chevy_Awareness_|_IMG_Chevy _Volt_Phase_2_Branded_|_Volt_HV_|_volt)

[Fuct Jup]

Cash for Clunkers Results Finally In: Taxpayers Paid $24,000 per Vehicle Sold, Reports Edmunds.com

SANTA MONICA, Calif. — October 28, 2009 — Edmunds.com, the premier resource for online automotive information, has determined that Cash for Clunkers cost taxpayers $24,000 per vehicle sold.

Nearly 690,000 vehicles were sold during the Cash for Clunkers program, officially known as CARS, but Edmunds.com analysts calculated that only 125,000 of the sales were incremental. The rest of the sales would have happened anyway, regardless of the existence of the program.

Ironically, the average transaction price for a new vehicle in August 2009 was only $26,915 minus an average cash rebate of $1,667.

"This analysis is valuable for two reasons," explained Edmunds.com CEO Jeremy Anwyl. "First, it can form the basis for a complete assessment of the program's impact and costs. Second—and more important—it can help us to understand the true state of auto sales and the economy. For example, October sales are up, but without Cash for Clunkers, sales would have been even better. This suggests that the industry's recovery is gaining momentum."

The chart below sets forth actual SAAR (Seasonally Adjusted Annual Rate) compared to Edmunds.com's forecasted rate if the program had never been implemented.

Cash for Clunkers Results Finally In: Taxpayers Paid $24,000 per Vehicle Sold, Reports Edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/159446/article.html)

[Blackflag]

Government efficiency, baby!

I got mine.

[Nickdfresh]

Cash for Clunkers Results Finally In: Taxpayers Paid $24,000 per Vehicle Sold, Reports Edmunds.com

SANTA MONICA, Calif. — October 28, 2009 — Edmunds.com, the premier resource for online automotive information....
Cash for Clunkers Results Finally In: Taxpayers Paid $24,000 per Vehicle Sold, Reports Edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/159446/article.html)


I had a good chuckle at that line. :biggrin: Really? Edmunds in a nice clearing house for information they get fed from manufacturers and they're a good resource for researching prices and all that.

But if you've ever read one of their supposed in-depth pieces--well--most of it is fuckwitted, shallow and often either completely contrary to reality or "duh" stuff that is intuitive fluff that everyone knows anyways masqued as meticulous research. I would love to know their methodologies and how they arrived that this conclusion.

Did they ask people, "did you need a 'government handout' to buy a car?"

What is someone going to say? "Oh NOOOOO!!! I would have bought one anyways!" (lies).

Edmunds should stick to posting invoice prices of cars and leave actual automotive journalism to professionals...

[Blackflag]

Yet, when I questioned the research done by Reuters, which knows fuck-all about medicare fraud, you expected me to take it at face value.

Doesn't Buffalo have a community college or some shit you can take a class in logic or critical thinking?

[Nickdfresh]

Yet, when I questioned the research done by Reuters, which knows fuck-all about medicare fraud, you expected me to take it at face value.

Reuters are actual journalists (sort of). Edmunds is a amateurish site where they send hack writers to be an "uncover carsalesman" who ultimately learn nothing, tell us nothing, and pretty much waste our time with the obvious...

And you can question whatever you want, and believe whatever you want. So can I. If you don't like it, then fuck off and don't read it...


Doesn't Buffalo have a community college or some shit you can take a class in logic or critical thinking?

Erie Country does; although I think they're considered to be such a political slush fund and patronage fluff posting for hacks that their sports teams are boycotted in certain parts of the country. :biggrin:

One of my friends was a temporary professor there, and he taught me that I was smarter than most college professors (and libertarians :) )

[Blackflag]

Reuters are actual journalists (sort of). Edmunds is a amateurish site where they send hack writers

And neither are researchers.



Erie Country does; although I think they're considered to be such a political slush fund and patronage fluff posting for hacks that their sports teams are boycotted in certain parts of the country. :biggrin:

Over the years, I've become a big proponent of community colleges. But not if they're corrupt, I guess.




One of my friends was a temporary professor there, and he taught me that I was smarter than most college professors (and libertarians :) )

Go with it man! Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Nickdfresh]

And neither are researchers.

Either can be "researchers" --if inept ones I guess...


Over the years, I've become a big proponent of community colleges. But not if they're corrupt, I guess.

Well, we agree on something. I think we've agreed before on this point -- that community colleges should become effectively 13th and 14th grade in the public schools curriculum...


Go with it man! Whatever helps you sleep at night.

That would be alcohol, and copious amounts of it. :)

[Nitro Express]

I tried to trade Sammy Hagar for cash but they refused to take that clunker.