Health care and the American dream of independence

[standin]

Today as I was planning my future endeavors. I got to thinking what an incredible boon to the American dream of independence Universal health care would be to this country and perhaps why it is such a scary concept to more than just pharmaceuticals, but big business, so scary that a disinformation campaign is afoot.

Talent and competition.

As it stands now, many folks actually look toward their companies and choose a life plan with their eye toward the benefits, especially health care once children arrive. The sheer amount of independence that would be giving to workers is significant. The choice to leave and venture would be a real choice or option. Moreover, many people would venture; creating or joining small business that are more streamlined and competitive.

Grant it after a while, the shark companies would realize that competive pay is an incentive for some, but competitive pay is not always worth a troublesome environment.

[ELVIS]

So, you think healthcare (as well as every other industry) should by government run and non-profit ??

[standin]

Grind dancers and musicians too, Elvis? You don't want free grind dancers?


Now, come now. Go have some morning beverage before you start posting.
Don't read words into my words like you do to Jesus. ;)
I am not looking to save 'em all. ;) :D
Morning, Sweet sunshine of delight

[ELVIS]

So are you anti-big business ??

And if you are, how big is big ??

[standin]

Big business what is it?
That is a good question.
Is it the money flow or profit or number of people?

There are somethings that cannot be done unless it is done collectively, so big business is fact.
Kinda like asking are you anti poo-ing or anti pee-ing
Neither, both are necessary.
I am anti urinary tract infection and anti colon cancer.

Let me ask you, do you think large organizations are incapable?

[Seshmeister]

So, you think healthcare (as well as every other industry) should by government run and non-profit ??

Healthcare is entirely different from any other 'industry'.

Do you think the military should not be run by government and make a profit?

[jhale667]

So, you think healthcare (as well as every other industry) should by government run and non-profit ??

Healthcare? Most definitely. Other industries, not so much - but no one's talking about that and you know it.

[bueno bob]

So, you think healthcare (as well as every other industry) should by government run and non-profit ??

So...if health care becomes non profit, EVERY OTHER industry has to follow suit?

Explain that to me if you don't mind; I'm missing how EVERY industry follows health care...?

[ELVIS]

Healthcare? Most definitely. Other industries, not so much - but no one's talking about that and you know it.

Ummm...

What just happened to GM ??

[ELVIS]

Explain that to me if you don't mind; I'm missing how EVERY industry follows health care...?

Ask Obama, not me... but I doubt he even knows...

[jhale667]

Ummm...

What just happened to GM ??

That's not "every" industry by a longshot.


And Obama could kick your ass intellectually with one lobe of his brain tied behind his back...

[ELVIS]

So what!

he's not using his own intellect. He's told what to do...

[ELVIS]

But I GUARANTEE I can give a speech without a teleprompter...

[jhale667]

So what!

he's not using his own intellect. He's told what to do...

:lmao:


Really? That's your response?? And then you go for the pathetic knee-jerk teleprompter comment. Sad...:hee:

[Seshmeister]

But I GUARANTEE I can give a speech without a teleprompter...



Yeah but you hide behind the big pointy hooded hat. :)

[jhale667]

Yeah but you hide behind the big pointy hooded hat. :)


Yeah, without the racist crap, E's arguments against Obama are even more ridiculous if that's possible. :biggrin:

[bueno bob]

But I GUARANTEE I can give a speech without a teleprompter...

But would it be a good idea?

;)

[bueno bob]

Ask Obama, not me... but I doubt he even knows...

Well, I don't recall Obama saying anything about "We're going to make health care free for all Americans...and then make every single else free for all Americans while we're at it. Gas, CDs, DVDs, trips to the movies, groceries, cigarettes, computers, houses, cars...all FREE!"

Sorry, but I don't follow your train of logic. You say every industry will be government run and non profit if health care is...defend it. Don't tell me to ask Obama. Give me a clear cut example of how I won't have to pay for, say, a new Stephen King novel if health care is universally covered. How will the government take over publishing and turn it into a non-profit venture if it happens to health care? How does U.S. publishing fall under the health care umbrella?

Not that I'd buy any new books out of Stephen King anymore, but still. Let's say publishing in general.

That's what you're saying right? Defend it.

[ELVIS]

I'm hinting at what you're saying, but i'm not saying it to be true...

Just a suggestion, or an idea...

[Guitar Shark]

I'm hinting at what you're saying, but i'm not saying it to be true...

Just a suggestion, or an idea...

Here's an idea. Quit saying stupid shit just to hear yourself think.

[bueno bob]

Here's an idea. Quit saying stupid shit just to hear yourself think.

LMAO!

Best laugh I've had this morning so far! Many thanks!!

[Nitro Express]

The problem with modern healthcare is it tends to keep assholes like your mother in law alive longer. It interferes with nature. How many of us suffer from inlaws who have lived longer than mother nature intended them to?

[standin]

In-laws! Not just in-laws!

Health care is totally an interference of nature, you are so right. Health care should be outlawed and banned. It is a horrible atrocity.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3555/3796842586_342b37eb80.jpg

[Va Beach VH Fan]

One of the key points that I find amusing is that you see dozens of signs saying they don't want "government-controlled" healthcare....

Then you watch one of those hijacked townhall meetings where they're saying the same thing...

But then the speaker turns around and says, "How many of you are on Medicare ??"....

Nearly all of the same people raise their hand....

Huh ??

I just don't understand the rhetoric... Is it out of ignorance, anti-Obamaanything, anti-poor people, anti-Democratanything....

Politics aside, if you don't think that nearly everything negative towards Obama is race-related, you're being awfully, awfully naive...

[Seshmeister]

One of the key points that I find amusing is that you see dozens of signs saying they don't want "government-controlled" healthcare....

Then you watch one of those hijacked townhall meetings where they're saying the same thing...

But then the speaker turns around and says, "How many of you are on Medicare ??"....

Nearly all of the same people raise their hand....

Huh ??


If you ever doubted the power of $$$ and advertising to influence the masses then you are seeing it in front of your eyes.

I don't know the exact details of the proposal but I hear its a pussified watered down thing anyway but one of the dozens of facts that seems to be completely misrepresented and lied about to the people is that they will be forced to use public healthcare. That only happens in communist countries.

In all Western democracies you can opt out with varying degrees of financial recompense for the services you are not relying on.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Absolutely Sesh....

And that's why I come back to ignorance... Not that I'm saying they're stupid, but uninformed, or should I say misinformed...

[FORD]

Willfully ignorant is more like it. These people are part of Glenn BecKKK's "9-12" fan club or are paid shills for a corporatist group led by former Repuke congressman Dick Armey. Or in some cases, just plain RACIST, like this trailer dweller who was whining in one of the clips I saw today about "how this country ain't never been like this before and she wants HER country back"

Well, exactly what is it that this country ain't ever had before?

Economic hard times? No.

Differences over needed policy changes? No.

A Black man in the White House and a Latina woman on the Supreme Court? Ah, now we're getting somewhere.........

:meinsmiley:MUST RESTORE THE ARYAN RACE TO SUPREMACY !!111!!! WHITE POWER!!111!!! :meinsmiley:

[Seshmeister]

Biggest problem seems to be your party though FORD.

[ELVIS]

Here's an idea. Quit saying stupid shit just to hear yourself think.

Same back at ya...

Just your career is based on taking peoples money doesn't mean you're intelligent...

[FORD]

Biggest problem seems to be your party though FORD.

You mean those assholes who claim to be in my party, but wouldn't know progressive legislation if I wrapped it up tight with a rubber band and beat them over the head with it?

http://images.politico.com/global/news/090603_max_297.jpg
Like old Max FuckUs here?

[FORD]

Same back at ya...

Just your career is based on taking peoples money doesn't mean you're intelligent...

So lawyers taking money is bad, but insurance corporations taking money, and hospitals not even insuring their own nurses, is good? :confused12:

[hideyoursheep]

ElVIS, I'm going to ask you a question...just to see where you're at on this.

Your town has 1 gas station.
Its 100 miles from the nearest town with another station.
Would it be cool with you if the one in your town jacked the price up to $12.50 a gallon, when the out of town pumps charge 2.25? Yes or no. Humor me.

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Well, I don't recall Obama saying anything about "We're going to make health care free for all Americans...and then make every single else free for all Americans while we're at it. Gas, CDs, DVDs, trips to the movies, groceries, cigarettes, computers, houses, cars...all FREE!"

Sorry, but I don't follow your train of logic. You say every industry will be government run and non profit if health care is...defend it. Don't tell me to ask Obama. Give me a clear cut example of how I won't have to pay for, say, a new Stephen King novel if health care is universally covered. How will the government take over publishing and turn it into a non-profit venture if it happens to health care? How does U.S. publishing fall under the health care umbrella?

Not that I'd buy any new books out of Stephen King anymore, but still. Let's say publishing in general.

That's what you're saying right? Defend it.

I think what tax paying citizens are concerned about is Obama and the politicians up on the hill, rushing this bill through with out looking at its longterm implications. Steny Hoyer laughed when he was asked if he had even read the bill. That alone is quite unnerving. I think everyone agrees that some reform is needed. With that said, I think some questions should be answered clearly before the Prez shoves this down our throat.

1. Who will pick up the health care tab for the 12 to 15 million illegal aliens in this country.
2. Over a period of time, will Obama Care force the private sector insurance companies out of business, creating a government run monopolistic health care system?
3. How will this plan effect the elderly.
4. Will this plan increase taxes on the middle class?

I personally like my current health care plan. Just last year, it was time to renew my health care and I was quite happy that I was able to choose from several different plans, which gave me the option to pick a plan that was the most cost effective and applicable to my lifestyle. From what I understand, after a certain period of time, Obama care will cut my options down to two. My current plan or his plan.
So basically if the costs on my current plan rise, my options to shop around are gone and I am forced into Obama care. So much for freedom.:( Lord Vader, you seem to have your finger on the pulse of this situation, so please correct me if any of my indicative concerns are fruitless. Oh and we already have a system that allows people to purchase free groceries, clothes, etc, etc. Its called Welfare. While standing in line at the grocery store I witnessed a healthy young American, sporting a new polo shirt and nikes purchasing groceries with food stamps. People take full advantage of this government handout everyday. Ya gotta love it!;)

[jhale667]

Willfully ignorant is more like it. These people are part of Glenn BecKKK's "9-12" fan club or are paid shills for a corporatist group led by former Repuke congressman Dick Armey. Or in some cases, just plain RACIST, like this trailer dweller who was whining in one of the clips I saw today about "how this country ain't never been like this before and she wants HER country back"

Well, exactly what is it that this country ain't ever had before?

Economic hard times? No.

Differences over needed policy changes? No.

A Black man in the White House and a Latina woman on the Supreme Court? Ah, now we're getting somewhere.........

:meinsmiley:MUST RESTORE THE ARYAN RACE TO SUPREMACY !!111!!! WHITE POWER!!111!!! :meinsmiley:


That's what all this "I want my country back" bullshit boils down too...that crazy trailer bitch being a prime example. :mad:

[Big Train]

If you ever doubted the power of $$$ and advertising to influence the masses then you are seeing it in front of your eyes.

I don't know the exact details of the proposal but I hear its a pussified watered down thing anyway but one of the dozens of facts that seems to be completely misrepresented and lied about to the people is that they will be forced to use public healthcare. That only happens in communist countries.


If you want to know what the people are protesting it is exactly as you just described.

NOBODY knows what's in it, least of all the people voting on it who openly admit they have not read it. So if those people have no knowledge of the details, exactly how are the citizens supposed to know?

Combine that with a rush to get this done and you have even more reservations from the opposition.

Then throw in a healthy dose of being called a racist or nazi and the reservations become open hostility to something you know is not on the level.

Much like the stimulus, the questions become:

1. What's the rush?
2. Why is no debate being allowed on this? No discussion of any kind.

When the people in power start chumming the waters (sorry for the analogy, it's Shark Week) with socio economic and race based BS, you know they are trying to cover their tracks and are afraid of honest debate.

[Big Train]

BTW, this is the same playbook they applied with Cap n Trade....300 pages in the middle of the night nobody had read, yet were going to rubber stamp.

Thankfully, Boehner checked them enough to at least delay it for awhile.

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Willfully ignorant is more like it. These people are part of Glenn BecKKK's "9-12" fan club or are paid shills for a corporatist group led by former Repuke congressman Dick Armey. Or in some cases, just plain RACIST, like this trailer dweller who was whining in one of the clips I saw today about "how this country ain't never been like this before and she wants HER country back"

Well, exactly what is it that this country ain't ever had before?

Economic hard times? No.

Differences over needed policy changes? No.

A Black man in the White House and a Latina woman on the Supreme Court? Ah, now we're getting somewhere.........

:meinsmiley:MUST RESTORE THE ARYAN RACE TO SUPREMACY !!111!!! WHITE POWER!!111!!! :meinsmiley:

You know it absolutely amazes me, how a woman born and raised in the Bronx of New York labels herself a latina and not a american. Is she that ashamed of a country that provided her the opportunities for her current success. For that matter a man who's mother was white and father was black, labels himself a black man, and the media falls right in line and covers it as such. It is blatantly obvious the president had a problem with his american name Barry, hense the switch to Barack. My father's parents were Italian but he was born in the U.S.. Does he walk around labeling himself Italian, no he is proud to call himself an American. Could it be that in today's America it is more advantagious to present yourself as Hispanic or Black? This country has provided these two individuals with education, wealth and prosperity yet both seem to display apprehension in giving any credit to a country that has provided the blessings they have today. Who exactly is the racist here?

[bueno bob]

You know it absolutely amazes me, how a woman born and raised in the Bronx of New York labels herself a latina and not a american.

Do you label yourself as "American" when somebody asks what race you are?

There's a big difference between race and nationality.


Is she that ashamed of a country that provided her the opportunities for her current success.

I don't think that has anything to do with it. The fact that I'm American is a given since I live in America, but if I had to classify myself by race, I'd say I'm white. What's wrong with her saying she's latina?

I mean, really. Let's think for a second.


For that matter a man who's mother was white and father was black, labels himself a black man, and the media falls right in line and covers it as such.

Um, should we call him something else? Or does he have a right to call himself black if he so chooses? Who should decide otherwise? You?


It is blatantly obvious the president had a problem with his american name Barry, hense the switch to Barack.

Oh God, you're REALLY going to go with that?


My father's parents were Italian but he was born in the U.S.. Does he walk around labeling himself Italian, no he is proud to call himself an American.

:rolleyes:

I still think he's Italian.


Could it be that in today's America it is more advantagious to present yourself as Hispanic or Black?

It's a damn spot not likely. And I know PLENTY of black people and Hispanic people who'd agree with me on that.


This country has provided these two individuals with education, wealth and prosperity yet both seem to display apprehension in giving any credit to a country that has provided the blessings they have today. Who exactly is the racist here?

I wonder.

[jhale667]

Yeah, sorry Ultraman, but you're waaaaaaay off base with that one.

[jhale667]

For that matter a man who's mother was white and father was black, labels himself a black man, and the media falls right in line and covers it as such.


Well, considering most (racists especially) would object to him labeling himself "white", what the fuck are you even talking about?

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Well, considering most (racists especially) would object to him labeling himself "white", what the fuck are you even talking about?

I am stating that he is not a black man. I guess we can agree to disagree, Mr. President.:beers8:

[jhale667]

We certainly can, but again, most wouldn't classify him as white either, would they?

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Guess not, but there is no way in hell, he is black. I would classify him to be of mixed race. Anyway, I thought Clinton was the 1st Black President. ;)

[jhale667]

Guess not, but there is no way in hell, he is black. I would classify him to be of mixed race.


We prefer "multi-ethnic". :rolleyes:
But again, who the fuck are you or I to say? He's this, he's that. It's bullshit, and NO ONE SHOULD CARE anyway. If you're worried about it, you have issues.
You see that's the thing - too many people (the GAyR's and ELVi of the world) want desperately to label (they need to so they can figure out whether they're supposed to hate or not), and technically, newsflash - he can classify himself (because NO ONE else really has the right to) and identify with either, or...or none of the above. And guess what? You can't say shit about it.

People who've suggested I need to "pick a race" have gotten free dental work. :wow2:

[standin]

What makes a person black in your mind , Ultra?
Because he is not a thuggish acting person?
Being thuggish is a culture not a race.
There are different classes in every race.
Being educated and contributing toward society is what his family valued,
Including his father.

[hideyoursheep]

Oh gawd..

[standin]

Hmm.. maybe, I should have said "he values".
But, his family, including his father, did value education.

[jhale667]

Oh gawd..

It's completely retarded for a third party to sit there and say "Well, I don't think he's black" -it's like, excuse me, who gives a fuck what you think?!?


:guitar:

[hideyoursheep]

He's not black enough.

He's not white enough.

He wasn't born here.

He's not a citizen of the US.

He's a SOCIALIST.

He's deficit spending. (like he ever had a choice)

He's putting goverment in charge of banks.

He has a secret army.

:rolleyes:
FUCK!

I'm sick of these inbred motherfuckers.

[4moreyears]

I have not been here in 2 years and it ius the same morons. Universal Health care is a stupid idea. Who is going to pay for this???

[Nitro Express]

Alan Keys is blacker than Obama. I don't want Alan Keys as president so that makes me a racist.

[Nitro Express]

I have not been here in 2 years and it ius the same morons. Universal Health care is a stupid idea. Who is going to pay for this???

We had great health care until the prices started shooting up. Big Pharma is part of the big price problem and they are all giddy for universal health care. It's all about who you want to be fucked up the ass by. The private insurance companies or the govt. Private insurance companies can force you to do things the govt. can. I don't trust either but the govt. has more power to abuse.

[Blackflag]

I think there's two l's in Allan.

Allan Keyes is so black, he goes to funerals naked.

[jhale667]

Alan Keys is blacker than Obama.

Oh, for fuck's sake...:rolleyes:



I don't want Alan Keys as president so that makes me a racist.

Only if you oppose him solely (or primarily) because he's black; which would also make you an idiot in addition to being a racist, but then they DO tend to go hand-in-hand...

Example 1: GAyR...:hee:

[GAR]

:lmao:


Really? That's your response?? And then you go for the pathetic knee-jerk teleprompter comment. Sad...:hee:

Sad because it's completely true.

[jhale667]

Glad you agree going for the teleprompter comment was lame. Perhaps there is hope for you...






























































NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! :heyfu:

[bueno bob]

Sad because it's completely true.

Are you STILL crying about the teleprompter?

Oh for fucks sake, grow up.

[ELVIS]

Multi-ethnic ??

Man, i'm so tired of these hyphenated americans...

[jhale667]

Multi-ethnic ??

Man, i'm so tired of these hyphenated americans...


This from the guy bitching about Obama being mixed? Please.
You're the type that needs them.

I'm an American. Don't like it? You can fuck off.


:guitar:

[ZahZoo]

If you don't want to read the whole bill... here's a very good overview.

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/media/pdf/111/tri.pdf

I would highly advise if you want to talk Healthcare Reform at least read and understand the actual bill in Congress... not the bullshit spewed about in the media!!

[matt19]

Ask Obama, not me... but I doubt he even knows...

I would, except at all these town hall meetings there is some moron like you screaming and arguing with all the answers he gives so wtf is the point?

Even if he had the perfect solution to health care morons like you would try to somehow paint him as a moron and give credit to Bush.

Its hilariously ironic that Republicans are screaming about how much this costs when not 4 years ago they passed a health care bill that wasnt paid for just added onto the national debt.

Republicans are the types that bitch about the pothole they just ran over, yet when the tax comes in that would pay for it you bitch about that too. You guys just love to whine about anything, then take credit when anything goes right.

makes me sick.
:barf:

[FORD]

Yeah, if Repukes had their way, they would privatize the police and the fire department. And then when your house was burning down, you could stand there and watch all the trucks roll by, on their way to the mansion across town where some millionaire's cat got stuck in a tree, because the millionaire's "premium" fire care policy trumps your house.

[Baby's On Fire]

Yeah, if Repukes had their way, they would privatize the police and the fire department. And then when your house was burning down, you could stand there and watch all the trucks roll by, on their way to the mansion across town where some millionaire's cat got stuck in a tree, because the millionaire's "premium" fire care policy trumps your house.


What's your problem with cats?

The furry little pussies have a lot more use than Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld combined.

Pussies should always be priority.

[Guitar Shark]

Multi-ethnic ??

Man, i'm so tired of these hyphenated americans...

Lame, dude.

[FORD]

What's your problem with cats?

The furry little pussies have a lot more use than Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld combined.

Pussies should always be priority.

Nothing against cats..... unless my house is on fire. If that's the case, kitty gets to stay in the goddamned tree a while longer.

[Baby's On Fire]

Well what if the people whose house was on fire didn't PAY THEIR INSURANCE PREMIUMS?

What if they were republicans? Wouldn't that be ironic?

Only the rich should enjoy any sort of insurance coverage.

If the poor bastards can't afford insurance, then the kitty should be priority.

The insurance company told me so.

[jhale667]

Nothing against cats..... unless my house is on fire. If that's the case, kitty gets to stay in the goddamned tree a while longer.

Like they really need to be rescuing cats anyway...they'll come down...have you ever seen a cat skeleton in a tree? :biggrin: