U.S. general calls for Afghan strategy shift

[Nickdfresh]

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/090831-afghanistan-hlarge-1045a.hlarge.jpg
Men walk past burnt vehicles along Chaman's Pakistan-Afghanistan border on Monday. Suspected Taliban militants set fire to 18 container trucks carrying supplies for Western forces in neighboring Afghanistan.
NATO officials say McChrystal separately expected to request more troops
The Associated Press
updated 1:46 p.m. ET, Mon., Aug 31, 2009

KABUL - The commander of U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan called Monday for a new strategy against the Taliban in an assessment of the 8-year-old conflict, saying the situation is serious but victory was achievable.

NATO officials disclosed that Gen. Stanley McChrystal is expected to separately request more forces to fight an increasingly deadly insurgency.

Explosions killed two more U.S. troops, raising the record death toll in August to 47 — the deadliest month of the eight-year war for American forces.

Boosting the number of U.S. forces in Afghanistan is a hot-button issue that could ignite furious debate in Washington on the U.S. military's future in an increasingly unpopular war. Some Democratic senators have increased calls for a timeline to draw down troops.

McChrystal sent his strategic review of the Afghan war to the Pentagon and NATO headquarters Monday. U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates ordered the 60-day review to size up the rapidly deteriorating security situation in Afghanistan as Taliban attacks rise and U.S. deaths spiral upward.

"The situation in Afghanistan is serious, but success is achievable and demands a revised implementation strategy, commitment and resolve, and increased unity of effort," McChrystal said in a statement Monday.

Request for more troops forthcoming?
A NATO statement said McChrystal's assessment seeks to implement President Barack Obama's strategy "to reduce the capability and will" of insurgents and extremists, including al-Qaida, and support the growth and development of Afghan security forces and Afghan governance.

McChrystal did not ask for more troops but is expected to do so in a separate request, two NATO officials told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak on the matter.

The United States already has some 62,000 troops in Afghanistan — a record number — and will have 68,000 by the end of the year. In total there are more than 100,000 U.S. and NATO troops in the country.

Thousands of U.S. forces moved into the Afghan south this summer after Obama ordered 21,000 more troops to the country this year, forces who helped protect the country's Aug. 20 presidential election. McChrystal, who took over command in Afghanistan on June 15, delayed the release of the review so that it would not interfere with the vote.

Karzai leads vote tally
New vote tallies released Monday showed President Hamid Karzai with a strong lead over top challenger Abdullah Abdullah. Karzai had 45.8 percent of votes counted, while Abdullah had 33.2 percent. Ballots have been counted from almost half of the country's voting stations, meaning results could still change dramatically. Karzai will need 50 percent of the votes to avoid a two-man runoff.

Hundreds of allegations of fraud and voter intimidation threaten to mar the election, and female turnout was low. Voters who cast ballots faced retaliatory attacks from militants who told Afghans not to vote. Results are not expected to be finalized until mid- or late September, after officials work through the fraud allegations.

Extreme danger
In an example of the extreme threats that voters faced, an Afghan man said Monday that Taliban militants cut off his nose and both ears as he tried to vote.

"I was on my way to a polling station when Taliban stopped me and searched me. They found my voter registration card," Lal Mohammad said from a hospital bed in Kabul. He said they cut off his nose and ears before beating him unconscious with a weapon.
http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/090831-afghan-nose-hmed-11a_001.standard.jpg
Afghan farmer Lal Mohammad, who claims his nose and ears were cut of by the Taliban.
"I regret that I went to vote," Mohammad said, crying and trying to hide his disfigured face. "What is the benefit of voting to me?"

Bolstering troop levels
The U.S. strategy in Afghanistan hinges on increasing the number of Afghan soldiers and police so U.S. forces can one day withdraw. Some 134,000 Afghan troops are to be trained by late 2011, but U.S. officials say that number will need to be greatly increased, an expansion that will be paid for by U.S. funds.

Afghanistan has long been seen as the "good" war by many in the United States, especially in comparison with U.S. efforts in Iraq, where U.S. troops are now drawing down. But some Democratic senators are beginning to question whether U.S. goals in Afghanistan are achievable, and when U.S. troops will be brought home.

© 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

GoogleAP (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32625078/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/)

[sadaist]

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/090831-afghanistan-hlarge-1045a.hlarge.jpg

I expect to see Mel Gibson ride through here on a motorcycle.

[Nitro Express]

The real strategy is wear down the invaders and outlast them. This strategy worked on Alexander the Great, the British, the Russians, and now the United States. This will run it's course, we will leave and Afganistahn will go on being well uh, Afganistahn.

[Seshmeister]

Yup. It is a complete waste of lives, time and money.

[hideyoursheep]

62 thousand?

A record number?

For the REAL front of the WOT?

Imagine the progress that could have been made with all those sent to Iraq sent here instead.

the US wouldn't be as broke, no one would be in Iraq, and our troops would have been home from Afghanistan 2 years ago! They could have went back to killing each other as nature intended by now!

:mad:

[standin]

Russia was bringing some real infrastructure to that region eons ago. We stepped in funded anyone that would disrupt. Disruption occurred. We did not keep our word to collaborate with the radicals that we recruited. We were seen as greedy, dishonest, and casuistic. That set in place angry at the world scenario. Neither Russia with its lack of religion that equated to evil (1), nor had America with its freedom of religion, (2) proved to be of use to the man that versioned himself a savior figure. In addition, that had learned manipulation and competition for basic affection and needs at the feet of his parents.
He is like the unchecked Michael Jackson of the Religion industry.

1. If or if not that was the case, it was the propaganda. Region was allowed, however it was heavily regulated
2. However, allows any cult to flourish unchecked when useful or benign.

[sadaist]

Russia was bringing some real infrastructure to that region eons ago. We stepped in funded anyone that would disrupt. Disruption occurred.

So what are the chances a country such as Russia is doing the same thing now to us as we did to them?

[Nitro Express]

Yup. It is a complete waste of lives, time and money.

I will forgive if I get a cut of the herione trade money.

[bueno bob]

I will forgive if I get a cut of the herione trade money.

You know, if we let them enjoy their own product long enough, maybe they'll destroy themselves and we won't have to worry about it...

[FORD]

Instead of trying to wipe out the opium farmers, they should legitimize them. Hook them up with the pharmaceutical companies, and make it the source material for the morphine in your local hospital, rather than the smack on the street.

Rush Limbaugh should easily get on board with this idea. It might bring the price of his Oxycontin down a little.

[standin]

So what are the chances a country such as Russia is doing the same thing now to us as we did to them?

The drug cartels are, with their own governmental system in place.
The drug cartel's governmental system is a form of the global world government that is feared by some that have not come to realize we already have global communications.

One reason why I compare Osama bin laden to Michael Jackson is, both are brilliant and produce incredible results in some aspects and completely totally misguided and delusional in other aspects. Moreover, their cult followings are damn devout.

[sadaist]

Instead of trying to wipe out the opium farmers, they should legitimize them. Hook them up with the pharmaceutical companies, and make it the source material for the morphine in your local hospital

Are the opiates used in Vicodin, Percocet, Lortab, Norco, Oxycodone, Oxycontin, etc... synthetic?

[Seshmeister]

Instead of trying to wipe out the opium farmers, they should legitimize them. Hook them up with the pharmaceutical companies, and make it the source material for the morphine in your local hospital, rather than the smack on the street.

Rush Limbaugh should easily get on board with this idea. It might bring the price of his Oxycontin down a little.

We don't even need to do that. We could buy it and put it down the toilet and it would still cost a millionth of the money being pissed away in that shithole on the 'war'.

[Satan]

One reason why I compare Osama bin laden to Michael Jackson is, both are brilliant and produce incredible results in some aspects and completely totally misguided and delusional in other aspects. Moreover, their cult followings are damn devout.

And also, they're both dead, and current residents here in Hell.

[LoungeMachine]

The real strategy is wear down the invaders and outlast them. This strategy worked on Alexander the Great, the British, the Russians, and now the United States. This will run it's course, we will leave and Afganistahn will go on being well uh, Afganistahn.

see also: Viet Nam

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

The War needs to be "won" --whatever the definition of victory is, which is actually probably some deal with partial elements of a dis-unified Taliban to form a coalition gov't distancing itself from anti-Western extremism.

That part of the world is completely fucked, and we need to sort of unfuck it a bit. If we don't, then you have the potential for a nuclear armed Pakistan going fundamentalist, and pipeline of drugs, and an ongoing culture of killing people for a paycheck and the highest bidder. 9/11, London Underground, and Spanish train plots will simply repeat themselves after pauses...

[Blackflag]

The War needs to be "won" --whatever the definition of victory is

:lmao::appl:

[Nickdfresh]

Instead of trying to wipe out the opium farmers, they should legitimize them. Hook them up with the pharmaceutical companies, and make it the source material for the morphine in your local hospital, rather than the smack on the street.

Rush Limbaugh should easily get on board with this idea. It might bring the price of his Oxycontin down a little.

An excellent idea.

A counterinsurgency battle cannot be won militarily or as one US general put it speaking about Iraq, "you cannot just shoot or kill your way out of an insurgency."

I've heard one of the main motivations for Talub fighters has nothing to do with Islam or that 72-virgin shiite. They simply just want to earn a regular paycheck and live in some semblance of political, social, and economic order where Warlord bastards aren't just robbing them and fucking their children at will...the ideal solution would be to send few hundred thousand NATO troops and to crush the more despotic warlords and then begin to rebuild the regional networks while economically developing the country. But that's never going to happen...

[Blackflag]

An excellent idea.

A typically moronic Ford idea.

Why would an Afghan do that when they can make far more profit selling to the black market? Why? Because it's the right thing to do? Because it would make Ford's day?

Moreover, there's no demand from the legitimate market - those companies already have sources for opium, and there's no shortage of morphine. Further, it would just fuck over the current legitimate sources and reward bad behavior.

Just another asinine Ford jerk-off that you think is "excellent"...:hee:

[Nickdfresh]

A typically moronic Ford idea.

Why would an Afghan do that when they can make far more profit selling to the black market? Why? Because it's the right thing to do? Because it would make Ford's day?

The typical farmers don't make much at all, their wages are on a third world scale and they do well if they eat regularly and can afford security. The only people making money are the drug lords and the Taliban, which is why the US has stopped bothering the farmers much and attempted large scale drug seizures...


Moreover, there's no demand from the legitimate market - those co mpanies already have sources for opium, and there's no shortage of morphine. Further, it would just fuck over the current legitimate sources and reward bad behavior.

Just another asinine Ford jerk-off that you think is "excellent"...:hee:


But that doesn't mean you can't incentivize their using the dope from Afghanistan...

[Blackflag]

The typical farmers don't make much at all, their wages are on a third world scale and they do well if they eat regularly and can afford security. The only people making money are the drug lords and the Taliban, which is why the US has stopped bothering the farmers much and attempted large scale drug seizures...

And you think the Taliban will stand by while an individual farmer deals directly with U.S. pharmaceutical companies - and they undermine the Taliban's source of black market income? They'd cut off his nose first. Or are you going to put troops on every farm in the country to make sure the Taliban behaves?

Whoever makes the money off the opium - farmers, taliban, whoever - they're not going to choose the low-profit, but honest, route. And you're not going to impose honest and ethical behavior on a country that doesn't want it for itself.




But that doesn't mean you can't incentivize their using the dope from Afghanistan...

And what message does that send? That if you act like an asshole, you'll get economic benefits from the U.S.? I think that's the message N. Korea got, too.

[Nickdfresh]

And you think the Taliban will stand by while an individual farmer deals directly with U.S. pharmaceutical companies - and they undermine the Taliban's source of black market income? They'd cut off his nose first. Or are you going to put troops on every farm in the country to make sure the Taliban behaves?
...

Of course not! You directly assault the Taliban and isolate various elements with a divide-and-conquer, carrot-and-stick strategy. You also get militias together and get the Afghan police to be somewhat competent...


And what message does that send? That if you act like an asshole, you'll get economic benefits from the U.S.? I think that's the message N. Korea got, too.

By "act like an asshole," do you mean making a living and not starving to death by the only means at one's disposal. Not everyone has a soft US middle class existence...

[Blackflag]

Of course not! You directly assault the Taliban and isolate various elements with a divide-and-conquer, carrot-and-stick strategy. You also get militias together and get the Afghan police to be somewhat competent...

As the queer machine said above... how did that work out in Vietnam? Or in Iraq, for that matter? Do you think that's a unique approach to occupation?




By "act like an asshole," do you mean making a living and not starving to death by the only means at one's disposal. Not everyone has a soft US middle class existence...

No, I mean...if you start up a totalitarian theocracy that shits on its women, murders its own citizens, and deals opium...the U.S. will swoop in and hook you up with contracts with our pharmaceutical industry (which has no incentive to deal with madmen). Sure. Great precedent to set.

Overall, another great Ford idea. Genius!

[standin]

Least you forget, once opium was declared unethical to produce, crops nearly ceased to exist.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Afghanistan_opium_poppy_cultivation_1994-2007b.PNG
During the Taliban rule, Afghanistan saw a bumper opium crop of 4,600 metric tons in 1999,[7]. In July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. As a result of this ban, opium poppy cultivation was reduced by 91% from the previous year's estimate of 82,172 hectares. The ban was so effective that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season.[8]

Based on UNODC data, there has been more opium poppy cultivation in each of the past four growing seasons (2004-2007), than in any one year during Taliban rule. Also, more land is now used for opium in Afghanistan, than for coca cultivation in Latin America. In 2007, 93% of the opiates on the world market originated in Afghanistan

I don't know who all uses Opium, I only to my knowledge have known one person that used Opium, and I would not have known that had I not recently learned what "King Herald" really meant.


But there must be a glut on the market by now. If free markets are as they proclaim, there must be a drop in supply soon, which means less production. Not that the drug trade outside of the ineffectual governing body, has a damn thing to do with hoodlia.

At the moment, the purest form of free market no tax system is in operation in Afghanistan.

That is what unregulated markets and no tax looks like, Afghanistan as we see it today.

[Blackflag]

I don't know who all uses Opium, I only to my knowledge have known one person that used Opium, and I would not have known that had I not recently learned what "King Herald" really meant.

It's used to make heroin, jackass.

How did we get on this opium discussion, anyways? Who gives a fuck if Afghanistan supplies the world with opium? I couldn't give a shit if I tried.

That's really an argument for this Afghanistan war - a war on drugs offshoot? The 'war on terror' has merged with the 'war on drugs?' Fuck me.

[BITEYOASS]

Least you forget, once opium was declared unethical to produce, crops nearly ceased to exist.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Afghanistan_opium_poppy_cultivation_1994-2007b.PNG
During the Taliban rule, Afghanistan saw a bumper opium crop of 4,600 metric tons in 1999,[7]. In July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. As a result of this ban, opium poppy cultivation was reduced by 91% from the previous year's estimate of 82,172 hectares. The ban was so effective that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season.[8]

Based on UNODC data, there has been more opium poppy cultivation in each of the past four growing seasons (2004-2007), than in any one year during Taliban rule. Also, more land is now used for opium in Afghanistan, than for coca cultivation in Latin America. In 2007, 93% of the opiates on the world market originated in Afghanistan

I don't know who all uses Opium, I only to my knowledge have known one person that used Opium, and I would not have known that had I not recently learned what "King Herald" really meant.


But there must be a glut on the market by now. If free markets are as they proclaim, there must be a drop in supply soon, which means less production. Not that the drug trade outside of the ineffectual governing body, has a damn thing to do with hoodlia.

At the moment, the purest form of free market no tax system is in operation in Afghanistan.

That is what unregulated markets and no tax looks like, Afghanistan as we see it today.

Well this explains everything! Bush crime family must have had trouble making cash in 2001 so what do they do? DA DA-DA-DAAAA! Wah ahn tewaw!

[standin]

yes, golly, gotta be those bushes. therefore, lets get the regular farmers and farm production companies in the stream of regular business. And dimes to dollars there will be a altruistic family leadership family, though slightly perverted and skewed for a couple generations, that will come from the chaos of an unregulated market.

[Nitro Express]

Instead of trying to wipe out the opium farmers, they should legitimize them. Hook them up with the pharmaceutical companies, and make it the source material for the morphine in your local hospital, rather than the smack on the street.

Rush Limbaugh should easily get on board with this idea. It might bring the price of his Oxycontin down a little.

Pharmacutical companies don't need an organic source once they have the molecular structure figured out. They just synthesize the drug using carbon as a base. They sell plenty of addictive opiates like the famous Oxycontin and Vicadin. They don't need poppy juice.

[hideyoursheep]

Pharmacutical companies don't need an organic source once they have the molecular structure figured out. They just synthesize the drug using carbon as a base. They sell plenty of addictive opiates like the famous Oxycontin and Vicadin. They don't need poppy juice.


Wrong dude.

They HAVE figued it out, only not to any degree of sucksess. The so-called non-narcotic pain meds cost just as much, do far less, and have even shittier side effects. So much so, that they actually prescribe an additional drug to combat the shitty side effect.

But, that's what happens when Big Pharma does what it wants.

And I'm not so sure Big Pharma isn't buying some of this Afghan opium for it's meds dirt cheap, and selling them to YOU, the consumer at a astronomical, insurance milking markup. There isn't enough opium grown in the states to supply Big Pharma's demand for ingredients. It has to come from somewhere.:umm:



BTW...It's VICODIN.:biggrin:

[GAR]

An excellent idea.

http://coolest-homemade-costumes.shippony.com/images/animals/parrots/parrot-costume-05.jpg

bwaaaaaak~!

"XLNT idea.. XLNT idea..
XLNT idea.. "

[GAR]

There isn't enough opium grown in the states to supply Big Pharma's demand for ingredients.

That's why the vicadins and oxycontins are synthetics


It has to come from somewhere.

So does the Spendulous Bill - but that didn't stop the Democrats from voting for it because the Federal Reserve needs suckers like Democrats to vote for destroying the money supply once it can't get loans from China anymore.

[Terry]

Since the common consensus is that most of Al Queda are reconstituting in Pakistan (which, unlike Afghanistan, has a nuclear capacity)...um...why are we in Afghanistan again?

When did it come to pass that the US became unable to pick the right places to invade?

What was it Orwell wrote...something about the necessity of a totalitarian regime keeping a nation constantly at war...

[Nickdfresh]

Since the common consensus is that most of Al Queda are reconstituting in Pakistan (which, unlike Afghanistan, has a nuclear capacity)...um...why are we in Afghanistan again?

Because we'd be fighting the Pakistani military which has now decided to crack down on their militants and is actually in the long process of controlling their anarchic provinces in Waziristan...


When did it come to pass that the US became unable to pick the right places to invade?

The 9/11 plan was mostly hatched in Afghanistan...


What was it Orwell wrote...something about the necessity of a totalitarian regime keeping a nation constantly at war...

Something like that...

[Blackflag]

http://coolest-homemade-costumes.shippony.com/images/animals/parrots/parrot-costume-05.jpg

bwaaaaaak~!

"XLNT idea.. XLNT idea..
XLNT idea.. "

See, that was funny. :biggrin:

[Nickdfresh]

I'm beginning to believe that the US/NATO effort in Afghanistan is largely futile as we are fighting for a corrupt set of pols not much better than the ones we're fighting against. I think the US needs to either negotiate with the Talubs or begin a withdrawal of most NATO forces (with a number staying as a counterterrorist quick reaction force but largely not involved in the civil war) with a transition of focus on training the Afghan military and especially reforming and retraining the national police and militia forces.

[Nitro Express]

Wrong dude.

They HAVE figued it out, only not to any degree of sucksess. The so-called non-narcotic pain meds cost just as much, do far less, and have even shittier side effects. So much so, that they actually prescribe an additional drug to combat the shitty side effect.

But, that's what happens when Big Pharma does what it wants.

And I'm not so sure Big Pharma isn't buying some of this Afghan opium for it's meds dirt cheap, and selling them to YOU, the consumer at a astronomical, insurance milking markup. There isn't enough opium grown in the states to supply Big Pharma's demand for ingredients. It has to come from somewhere.:umm:



BTW...It's VICODIN.:biggrin:

You missed the entire point. They DON"T NEED ORGANIC BASE MATERIAL. They synthesize it in a lab just lie artificial flavoring is synthesized. It's a complex process of breaking down what makes the organic version work to the molecular level and then you synthesize it with manmade chemicals. Virgina Dare does this with their flavorings and big pharma does this with drugs. What's valuable is the formula process. Making the stuff is cheap once you have that figured out. It costs pennies to make the drugs they sell for a fortune once the R&D is covered.

[Seshmeister]

I'm beginning to believe that the US/NATO effort in Afghanistan is largely futile as we are fighting for a corrupt set of pols not much better than the ones we're fighting against. I think the US needs to either negotiate with the Talubs or begin a withdrawal of most NATO forces (with a number staying as a counterterrorist quick reaction force but largely not involved in the civil war) with a transition of focus on training the Afghan military and especially reforming and retraining the national police and militia forces.

Big change in a week but I'm happy you now agree with me.

It's the only sensible option. So now anything up to a thousand American and British kids are going to have to die over the next couple of years for completely and entirely political reasons.

They will all die because our politicians will not accept the chance of a loss of a few percentage points that might come from a withdrawal.

[Nitro Express]

Big change in a week but I'm happy you now agree with me.

It's the only sensible option. So now anything up to a thousand American and British kids are going to have to die over the next couple of years for completely and entirely political reasons.

They will all die because our politicians will not accept the chance of a loss of a few percentage points that might come from a withdrawal.

They are fighting for old men's loot. It reminds me of George Carlin during the Vietnam War saying we can't pull out too soon because that's unmanly, we need to stay in and keep fucking them!:biggrin: