Obama: Legalize illegals

[ELVIS]

Obama: Legalize illegals to get them health care

September 18, 2009 (http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1)

President Obama said this week that his health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage.

He also staked out a position that anyone in the country legally should be covered - a major break with the 1996 welfare reform bill, which limited most federal public assistance programs only to citizens and longtime immigrants.

"Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don't simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken," Mr. Obama said Wednesday evening in a speech to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute. "That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else.

Mr. Obama added, "If anything, this debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country once and for all."

Republicans said that amounts to an amnesty, calling it a backdoor effort to make sure current illegal immigrants get health care.


:elvis:

[Nickdfresh]

More utter strawman shit from the Mooney Times...

[chefcraig]

Republicans said that amounts to an amnesty, calling it a backdoor effort to make sure current illegal immigrants get health care.

For once, I agree with the Republican response on this. Offering a wide-ranging lateral amnesty appears remarkably short-sited, and only seems to have one outcome: Total fuckery most fowl of an already thorny and complicated immigration issue. This is as naive sounding and so out of touch with reality that it reads about as well suited to the situation as Nancy Reagan's equally dubious remark for people to "Just say no to drugs". As if wishing a situation resolved would make it so.

What an astounding form of leadership in play here. Let's take the one issue that is dividing this country into all sorts of odd factions (heath care) and piggy-back it onto another (immigration) that holds the same possibility.

I do question the timing of this story, however. Seeing how this article arrived on a Friday, I look forward to viewing this Sunday's political programs, to see how the White House attempts to explain what the President really meant. http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/free-ashamed-smileys-705.gif (http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/Free-Party-Smileys/)

[Nickdfresh]

Where does Obama come even close to suggesting that?

[Nitro Express]

You solve the immigration problem by throwing the people that hire them into jail. And I mean hard ass break rocks all day, no television jail. Of course most of our politicians would end up in jail for having illegal alien housekeepers, nannies, and landscapers.

[Blackflag]

More utter strawman shit from the Mooney Times...

You are seriously off your game lately.

[Nitro Express]

Here's my solution. Up the patrol on the borders and anyone caught hiring illegal aliens will be drafted for mine and bomb clearing duty in Afganistahn and Iraq.

[Seshmeister]

Obama: Legalize illegals to get them health care

September 18, 2009 (http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1)

President Obama said this week that his health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage.

He also staked out a position that anyone in the country legally should be covered - a major break with the 1996 welfare reform bill, which limited most federal public assistance programs only to citizens and longtime immigrants.

"Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don't simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken," Mr. Obama said Wednesday evening in a speech to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute. "That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else.

Mr. Obama added, "If anything, this debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country once and for all."

Republicans said that amounts to an amnesty, calling it a backdoor effort to make sure current illegal immigrants get health care.


:elvis:

Jesus replied with a story:

“A Mexican man was traveling on a trip from New Orleans to Baton Rouge, and he was attacked by bandits. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him up, and left him half dead beside the road. By chance a priest came along. But when he saw the man lying there, he crossed to the other side of the road and passed him by. A Temple assistant walked over and looked at him lying there, but he also passed by on the other side. Then a born again Christian came along, and when he saw the man, he felt compassion for him. But going over to him, born again noticed that he had been born in a different country so he kicked him in the face and said "Fucketh you illegal cunt" and left him to die.

“Now which of these three would you say was a neighbor to the man who was attacked by bandits?” Jesus asked. The man replied, “None of them” Then Jesus said, “Yes, now go and do the same because my followers can just talk shit about doing good on Sundays and the rest of the week do whatever the fuck they like, especially to those foreign cunts.”

Amen

[chefcraig]

Where does Obama come even close to suggesting that?

You got me there, as it is more inferred, a supposition (allegedly) made by the "Republicans" mentioned in the article. Oddly enough, for one reason or another I have yet to find any quotes by Republican statesmen in accordance with the "quote". In fact, the only reference I've found with regard to amnesty comes from an obscure blogger with the West Palm Beach Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/x-17004-Dallas-County-Republican-Examiner~y2009m9d18-Obama--Legalize-illegals-to-offer-them-health-care).

Odder still, the slant of the article was also shown at another news source, which uses the same quotes to infer the same view:
CNSNews.com - Obama: Immigration Reform Will Allow Illegal Immigrants to Become Legal and Get Health Care Coverage (http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/54230)

[ELVIS]

Born again believers strive to be like Jesus everyday, which includes obeying the law...

Illegals are illegal, but I would help anyone in need. Especially if they were beaten and left naked on the side of the road...


:elvis:

[Guitar Shark]

Illegals are illegal, but I would help anyone in need.

Awesome. The article you posted says that there are 12 million illegal immigrants in this country in need of health care insurance. I'm sure they will appreciate your help.

[Nitro Express]

Born again believers strive to be like Jesus everyday, which includes obeying the law...

Illegals are illegal, but I would help anyone in need. Especially if they were beaten and left naked on the side of the road...


:elvis:

Render Caeser what is Ceaser's and help the Samaritans.

[Nitro Express]

My idea of a failed government is when the government doesn't enforce it's own laws and the leaders are allowed to break it's laws and face no prosecution.

[Blackflag]

Awesome. The article you posted says that there are 12 million illegal immigrants in this country in need of health care insurance.

Yeah. And I need a new car, dammit. And some nachos. I'll PM you my address, Elvis.

[chefcraig]

My idea of a failed government is when the government doesn't enforce it's own laws and the leaders are allowed to break it's laws and face no prosecution.

Doesn't it therefore follow that in accordance with your statement, every government that has ever existed (to one extend or another) is thus a failure?

[ELVIS]

Awesome. The article you posted says that there are 12 million illegal immigrants in this country in need of health care insurance. I'm sure they will appreciate your help.

I won't be seeking your representation any time soon...


:elvis:

[Guitar Shark]

That's ok, I don't do criminal defense anyway... ;)

[Jesus Christ]

Born again believers strive to be like Jesus everyday, which includes obeying the law...

Illegals are illegal, but I would help anyone in need. Especially if they were beaten and left naked on the side of the road...


:elvis:

Gregory, would ye pull an ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath?

[Guitar Shark]

Hey, where ya been, FORD? I think this may be one of your longest stretches of absence here.

[Jesus Christ]

Ye need to check thy typing, Matthew. Ye hit the "F" key when ye should hath typed "L". :jesuslol:

[Guitar Shark]

Oh, lor luck's sake. My apofogies.

[ELVIS]

uhh hu u uh uh uh uhuh hu hu hu hu hu huh

That was cool


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Gregory, would ye pull an ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath?

Of course, FORD with an impostrophe L


:biggrin:

[ELVIS]

:elvis:

[chefcraig]

My idea of a failed government is when the government doesn't enforce it's own laws and the leaders are allowed to break it's laws and face no prosecution.

It occurred to me that the earlier response I gave you to this really didn't really do much more than ask a hypothetical question. I wasn't trying to be a wise ass or ridicule your post. I was however attempting to make you rethink it, and I believe the following addresses that a bit better.

One of the widest held axioms in modern political thought is the idea that "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". Considering the easiest way for the common man to achieve even the illusion of power is through government, wouldn't that, combined with the notion of basic human frailty, suggest that any or all governments are capable of corruption?

I mean, look at the founding fathers of the United States. You can not prove to me that amongst those noble men, at least some of them were in it for their own personal gain. Be it home and hearth, sovereignty of property and land or even (Oh, yeah...) the concept of individual freedom from repression, at least a couple of these geezers had to be thinking outside the box and inside their own best interests.

Look, maybe it's just the way I've come to see things, but I personally take little stock in the implied dignity or apparently selfless service of any public servant. In that regard I may in fact be more cynical than anyone else around here. And maybe that is why I feel that your definition of what makes a failed government inaccurate, as by that yardstick, all of them are subject to failure.

[kwame k]

"Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don't simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken," Mr. Obama said Wednesday evening in a speech to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute. "That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else.


The past administration's answer was a 21st century equivalent to the Great Wall Of China. Build a bigger fence, like that'll work.

I agree with Nitro, we are going after the wrong people....don't go after the people who only want a job to fed themselves or their families, go after the people who employ them.

However, make it easier for the illegals to get proper documentation to come to this country and work here legally. It servers two purposes; 1) We know who's in our country and have a way of tracking them. 2) We could tax them like all legal workers are taxed now....meaning more money coming in.

It would also stop the "Coyotes" who make money to smuggle these people over here and stop them from using them as "mules" for bringing drug into this country.

[Seshmeister]

I mean, look at the founding fathers of the United States. You can not prove to me that amongst those noble men, at least some of them were in it for their own personal gain. Be it home and hearth, sovereignty of property and land or even (Oh, yeah...) the concept of individual freedom from repression, at least a couple of these geezers had to be thinking outside the box and inside their own best interests.

Look, maybe it's just the way I've come to see things, but I personally take little stock in the implied dignity or apparently selfless service of any public servant. In that regard I may in fact be more cynical than anyone else around here. And maybe that is why I feel that your definition of what makes a failed government inaccurate, as by that yardstick, all of them are subject to failure.

You know the minute this stuff comes up anyone that hasn't been brought up on this 'founding father' mythology laughs.

A bunch of Europeans steal a country from the indigenous population, get fed up paying tax back home so set up their own country. They do this by wiping out the people that live there and build up it's wealth by using slaves from Africa.

After economic problems in the 1930s and being forced into joining the second world war the leadership realize that war is good for the economy and then strive to fight wars for most of the next 60 years.

That really doesn't sound selfless or defending freedom or stopping repression to anyone that hasn't been brainwashed.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[ELVIS]

Ahhh... The suspicious view from across the pond... but a very thought provoking post, I must say...


:elvis:

[Seshmeister]

I'm a fan of America but don't get this founding father mythology.

We know that there were a lot of cunts running Britain in the 1770s, fuck there were a lot of cunts running it in the 1880s too.

I've always been interested in history but it's nuts to put these people up as a way to act now.

The great Scottish hero Wallace, the guy in the Braveheart film, used to hang people if they didn't want to join his army. The greatest British statesman of all time who probably saved Europe from Nazism by not signing a peace treaty was happy to gas tribesmen and wasn't a fan of Jews as a general rule.

The past was a different world so this nonsense of putting these guys on pedestals using their ancient pronouncements as a way to live our lives is nuts. We have moved on since those days and are generally much better morally than they could ever have dreamed of.

[ELVIS]

I don't know about that...

I still respect and applaud the founding documents of this country, but the government seems as though they would like nothing more than to burn them in our faces...

Part of our problem today is, the majority of american idiots are idiots and have no idea what's going on, and the rest that have the slightest idea of what's going on could care less...

[Seshmeister]

There are idiots everywhere.

The US constitution was the best in the world when it came out. The UK doesn't even have a constitution.

Both countries would be better with one of the the new ones written for countries since WWII which take the best elements and improve on them. I'm not a professor of public law although I did study it years ago but to me the US constitution is too rigid, outdated and too difficult to change but the UK could do with the protections of one.

[Blackflag]

Sesh would almost have a point to make if the founders of the country weren't already rich prior to starting the revolution. They had everything to lose, and not money to gain.

But it sounds cool to shit on history, in an ignorant punk sort of way. ;)

[ELVIS]

It's rigid structure and that fact that it's very difficult to change are good attributes... if the Constitution could have been easily changed, it would have been destroyed years ago...

[Seshmeister]

Or in a glass half full mode maybe improved?

I think the major problem rather than the constitution per se though is the money thing and the barriers to new or independent parties.

[Blackflag]

None of that is even in the Constitution. Man, you're on a streak tonight. :biggrin:

[ELVIS]

That's very true...

But the media (including most talk radio heroes) are mostly responsible for keeping the left-right paridigm alive...

[jhale667]

I don't know about that...


I do. As great as the founding fathers were, they endorsed slavery, had the audacity to fractionally devalue fellow human beings (1/3?), and also didn't even consider white women intellectual equals worthy of the right to vote.
All of these things are rightly considered barbaric today. They were by no means perfect.

[ELVIS]

None of that is even in the Constitution. Man, you're on a streak tonight. :biggrin:

..and you should go streak tonight...

[jhale667]

..and you should go streak tonight...

Betting no one in his neighborhood wants to see that...:biggrin:

[Seshmeister]

None of that is even in the Constitution. Man, you're on a streak tonight. :biggrin:




I think the major problem rather than the constitution per se though is the money thing and the barriers to new or independent parties.

What are you drinking tonight?

[ELVIS]

The "per se" threw him off...

[Nickdfresh]

You solve the immigration problem by throwing the people that hire them into jail....

Which has actually increased under the Obama Administration. Yeah, 'kay, they don't get thrown into jail. But the fines are heavy and such checks are becoming more frequent, especially in regards to federal jobsites...

[Nickdfresh]

You are seriously off your game lately.

Maybe that's because the competition blows lately...

[Nickdfresh]

Born again believers strive to be like Jesus everyday, which includes obeying the law...

Illegals are illegal, but I would help anyone in need. Especially if they were beaten and left naked on the side of the road...


:elvis:

I'm pretty sure his "believers" were worried about their own actions in "following the law" and not in others....

[Nickdfresh]

My idea of a failed government is when the government doesn't enforce it's own laws and the leaders are allowed to break it's laws and face no prosecution.

You mean like fucking enforcing speed limits on the highways?

[Nitro Express]

You mean like fucking enforcing speed limits on the highways?

I have a 1979 Lamborghini. I wish they didn't enforce those.

[Nitro Express]

Last time I got pulled over I rolled the window down to talk to the cop and he's telling me to roll it down more but on a Countach you just get a little slit and so I open the door and now the dude is freaking I'm going to jump out at him.

[Dr. Love]

Re: The Consitution, I agree with Elvis that being hard to change is a good thing... imagine what the Bush Admin would have done in the last 8 years if it were easier to change (banning gay marriage, legally doing a lot of the illegal things they do, etc)

On the flip side imagine what the Obama Admin might do (or any administration for that matter) if it were easier to change.

[ELVIS]

Exactly

[Hardrock69]

Round up the illegals and ship them back to where they came from.

I have said often I do not go along party lines or stand blindly on a candidate's platform.

I say do not 'legalize' people who are already here illegally. Send them back to Mexico, China, or wherever the fuck they came from and allow them to come back once they have filled out the proper paperwork!

[Big Train]

The whole "there is no healthcare for illegals" deal in Obama's speech had me laughing. Sin of omission. They always have and always will get free health care because nobody can be denied on the basis of ability to pay. Maintain the status quo. The amounts of money we pay in LA county alone for services would blow your mind.

For all the talk of workplace enforcement (which btw, E-Verify does absolutely nothing for the Home Depot parking lot, Willing Worker, Migrant guy), the incentives to coming here still far outweigh the risks in the migrants minds. Those incentives need to be removed.

Constitution needs to be amended Elvis. The provision needs to read "an American citizen can only be born by an American citizen". No reverse engineering with the anchor, creating a hardship that babies family isn't here with him.

Obama is simply making meaningless dribble for the believers to hear while he maintains the status quo, as he is doing with other groups.

[Nickdfresh]

...

Obama is simply making meaningless dribble for the believers to hear while he maintains the status quo, as he is doing with other groups.


Yeah, you mean like how it is now?

If he were offering the "status quo," why the fuck would he be bothering with health care to begin with?

[Big Train]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

He is maintaining the status quo, so yes I guess so.

[Nickdfresh]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

He is maintaining the status quo, so yes I guess so.

I'm not sure I understand why you don't understand. If he were "maintaining the status quo," then why the fuck would he be bothering with the hassle of health care reform to begin with?

If it were the "status quo," we wouldn't have a bunch of stirred up tea-baggers egged on by industry stealth-lobbyists spewing loies, half-truths, and strawmen arguments (much like the premise of this thread)...

You know, complete idiot stuff like "legalizing illegals" even though there is nothing even close to that in his statements...

[Big Train]

He was looking for what he thought would be a slam dunk, but he picked the wrong issue for his slam dunk. Eventually, like Clinton, he will slowly crawl to the center to maintain his own status.

When I say status quo, it's his own "half truths" that I'm talking about. You are correct, he said explicitly that nothing in the bill would cover immigrants.

However, via his own half truth, they are and will continue to be covered under their own "public option", since they cannot be denied care because of ability to pay.

By not mentioning it and harping on what he did say, he covers himself and yet still maintains the status quo.

[Nickdfresh]

He was looking for what he thought would be a slam dunk, but he picked the wrong issue for his slam dunk. Eventually, like Clinton, he will slowly crawl to the center to maintain his own status.

....


Obama has pretty much always been near the center. Only delusional partisan hacks, lunatics, and morons could possibly think any differently....

[Blackflag]

Nick, are you back on the pipe?

You're approaching Standin Territory now.

:headlights:

[Nickdfresh]

Nick, are you back on the pipe?

You're approaching Standin Territory now.

:headlights:

WTF are you babbling on about now?

[Blackflag]

That's exactly what I'm asking you, my man. You're on the verge of incoherent.

[Nickdfresh]

That's exactly what I'm asking you, my man. You're on the verge of incoherent.

Trolling much?

[Blackflag]

That would be a really weak troll. I'm just making an observation.

Slow down and collect your thoughts. And for fuck's sake, step away from the pipe.

[Baby's On Fire]

I don't know about that...

I still respect and applaud the founding documents of this country, but the government seems as though they would like nothing more than to burn them in our faces...

Part of our problem today is, the majority of american idiots are idiots and have no idea what's going on, and the rest that have the slightest idea of what's going on could care less...


Coming from a guy who believes in fairy tales and an invisible man in the sky not a single person has ever seen.

Truly amazing.

[ELVIS]

How do you know who has seen what...

[Nickdfresh]

That would be a really weak troll. I'm just making an observation.

Slow down and collect your thoughts. And for fuck's sake, step away from the pipe.

I know it's a weak troll. Much like your thoughts and observations...

[ZahZoo]

"Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don't simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken," Mr. Obama said Wednesday evening in a speech to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute. "That's why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else.

Mr. Obama added, "If anything, this debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country once and for all."

Republicans said that amounts to an amnesty, calling it a backdoor effort to make sure current illegal immigrants get health care.

This is an area that I just got to call bullshit on... The "legal" immigration system actually works just fine. It could use a few minor improvements, but overall the system works.

The heart of the problem is enforcement or lack there of, of illegal immigration!!! If we, the US, enforced, prosecuted, and just followed the damn laws on the books... there wouldn't be 12 million fucking illegals sucking the life out of our health system, infrastructure, jobs and economy. Therefore this element wouldn't enter into the Health Care Reform debate...

You don't go revamping the manufacturing process in the auto industry every time you get a flat tire... you fix the damn tire!!

[Seshmeister]

I have a 1979 Lamborghini. I wish they didn't enforce those.

Cool, I was planning on having my midlife crisis next year. :)

[Terry]

The hiring practices re: illegals aren't going to change until the penalties for being caught far outweigh the financial benefits for companies who hire them. Without substantial jail time being included in the penalties, imposing meager fines just isn't gonna deter the present practices.

As for rounding up and deporting all the illegals, while in theory it sounds great, as a practical matter it isn't realistic.

[ZahZoo]

Granted the illegal problem can't be fixed quickly... but wouldn't hurt to start. There's a heck of a lot of low hanging fruit on the employment side that could easily be investigated and prosecuted.

As far as round ups... again... there's a lot of quick and easily identified areas to find illegals. Having lived in both Texas and California... it would be like fishing with dynomite in a barrel.

I just feel too many local, state and federal enforcement agencies have been looking the other way for too damn long. If there were significant enforcement... yes, there would be a temporary disruption of certain businesses... but given the current state of the economy and unemployment rates... those jobs would be quickly filled with US citizens.

Do some simple math, if you have 12 million illegals... just a 10% reduction is 1.2 million.

I don't want to hear about the impact to illegal immigrant families. They broke a law and committed a crime by sneaking in here. Boo-Fucking-Hoo if it impacts your wife, kids, grand kids, etc... If I commit a crime, get caught and have to go away... it impacts my family too. Welcome to reality and making responsible decisions in your fucking life. Tragic implications... yes, but we all face choices with consequences. Crossing that border and putting down roots has a risk... and it puts a lot on the line. Simple as that...

[Seshmeister]

You've all been illegals since at least about 1777...

[Big Train]

Not in all of America. In California, Lousiana, Alaska, we are actually the registered owners via purchase...

[ELVIS]

So there, Mr. Smarty Pants...:biggrin:

[Terry]

Granted the illegal problem can't be fixed quickly... but wouldn't hurt to start. There's a heck of a lot of low hanging fruit on the employment side that could easily be investigated and prosecuted.

As far as round ups... again... there's a lot of quick and easily identified areas to find illegals. Having lived in both Texas and California... it would be like fishing with dynomite in a barrel.

I just feel too many local, state and federal enforcement agencies have been looking the other way for too damn long. If there were significant enforcement... yes, there would be a temporary disruption of certain businesses... but given the current state of the economy and unemployment rates... those jobs would be quickly filled with US citizens.

Do some simple math, if you have 12 million illegals... just a 10% reduction is 1.2 million.

I don't want to hear about the impact to illegal immigrant families. They broke a law and committed a crime by sneaking in here. Boo-Fucking-Hoo if it impacts your wife, kids, grand kids, etc... If I commit a crime, get caught and have to go away... it impacts my family too. Welcome to reality and making responsible decisions in your fucking life. Tragic implications... yes, but we all face choices with consequences. Crossing that border and putting down roots has a risk... and it puts a lot on the line. Simple as that...

I do agree with the sentiments you've expressed.

A manditory national ID card system could be a way to go.

However, the idea of roadblocks and person-to-person searches...something where one has to produce papers to prove citizenship on demand by various law enforcement agencies, and the failure to produce said papers / card leading to incarceration...seems like a slippery slope down towards yet more control of the state over its population...these are things the KGB does (or did).

I mean, fuck, we're barely living in a democracy as it is, you know?

[Blackflag]

I do agree with the sentiments you've expressed.

A manditory national ID card system could be a way to go.

However, the idea of roadblocks and person-to-person searches...something where one has to produce papers to prove citizenship on demand by various law enforcement agencies, and the failure to produce said papers / card leading to incarceration...seems like a slippery slope down towards yet more control of the state over its population...these are things the KGB does (or did).

I mean, fuck, we're barely living in a democracy as it is, you know?

But mandatory stops aren't even neccessary. A friend of mine got hit by another car a few weeks ago, and the other driver didn't have a license, or insurance... and what do you think they did with him?

This problem could be solved over time, but they don't even want to try and solve it. The politicians want them to stay.

[Nickdfresh]

But mandatory stops aren't even neccessary. A friend of mine got hit by another car a few weeks ago, and the other driver didn't have a license, or insurance... and what do you think they did with him?

This problem could be solved over time, but they don't even want to try and solve it. The politicians want them to stay.

And so do the corporations lobbying the politicians. Some face genuine labor shortages and need more (illegal) workers, while others just see it as a great way to subvert minimum wage laws New Deal era worker protections...

[Baby's On Fire]

How do you know who has seen what...

I read the papers.....

[Blackflag]

And so do the corporations lobbying the politicians. Some face genuine labor shortages and need more (illegal) workers, while others just see it as a great way to subvert minimum wage laws New Deal era worker protections...

It's not up to corporations to fix immigration problems - that's the job of the lawmakers and law enforcement. That's who the buck stops with.

[Nickdfresh]

It's not up to corporations to fix immigration problems - that's the job of the lawmakers and law enforcement. That's who the buck stops with.

So corporations don't have to follow laws, then?

[ZahZoo]

And so do the corporations lobbying the politicians. Some face genuine labor shortages and need more (illegal) workers, while others just see it as a great way to subvert minimum wage laws New Deal era worker protections...

From my experience... there's not that many "corporations" employing illegals. Probably less than 20% overall. Of those most would be involved with non-skilled laborer type of work such as large janitorial outfits. Most of those would be contract firms providing services to larger corporations.

Predominately the largest employers and abusers are small mom & pop type busniesses, automotive, construction, resturant, hotels/motels and agriculture.

With unemployment levels at or well above 10% across the nation... I seriously doubt any company in the US is experiencing a "genuine labor shortage"... unless of course they're running low on hispanics who'll work for less than minimum wage and allow the employer to avoid withholding taxes, Social Security and paying workman's comp.

Enforcement isn't that tough... look at what happened to Oklahoma back in 2007/8 when they enacted the 1804 bill. Illegals poured out of the state like cockroaches scatter when the lights get turned on. Many headed back to Mexico or to Canada...

[Nickdfresh]

From my experience... there's not that many "corporations" employing illegals. Probably less than 20% overall. Of those most would be involved with non-skilled laborer type of work such as large janitorial outfits. Most of those would be contract firms providing services to larger corporations.

Predominately the largest employers and abusers are small mom & pop type busniesses, automotive, construction, resturant, hotels/motels and agriculture.

There are many midlevel corp's that employ illegals -purposefully seeking them out. Major corp's also get around this by using "contractors" such as you describe below...




With unemployment levels at or well above 10% across the nation... I seriously doubt any company in the US is experiencing a "genuine labor shortage"... unless of course they're running low on hispanics who'll work for less than minimum wage and allow the employer to avoid withholding taxes, Social Security and paying workman's comp....


Right. But the fact that illegal immigration has dramatically declined also shows the bad economy effects illegals as well...

[Blackflag]

So corporations don't have to follow laws, then?

They do. But I don't see legislators enacting harsh laws, and I don't see anybody enforcing the laws we already have. So that's who I primarily blame.

[Hardrock69]

Not in all of America. In California, Lousiana, Alaska, we are actually the registered owners via purchase...

Hmm true. So 47 states are full of illegal immigrants. Now how do we go about figuring out where we came from? I mean, My maternal grandma was full-blooded German. She married a guy who was descended from Scottish blood. My paternal grandparents were descended from 270 years of immigrants who came to America from other places. I would imagine somewhere in all that lot there is some Native American blood, as well as traces of ancestry from Asia or Africa.

So....explain where I am supposed to go live while I fill out my application for my green card? :hee:

[Hardrock69]

They do. But I don't see legislators enacting harsh laws, and I don't see anybody enforcing the laws we already have. So that's who I primarily blame.


?????

Why not blame the sheetrockers? In your opinion THEY should be guilty of something, eh? Like using nails instead of screws? Or vice-versa?
:lol:

[Big Train]

Hmm true. So 47 states are full of illegal immigrants. Now how do we go about figuring out where we came from? I mean, My maternal grandma was full-blooded German. She married a guy who was descended from Scottish blood. My paternal grandparents were descended from 270 years of immigrants who came to America from other places. I would imagine somewhere in all that lot there is some Native American blood, as well as traces of ancestry from Asia or Africa.

So....explain where I am supposed to go live while I fill out my application for my green card? :hee:

I wouldn't be worried about it since the indians never had any laws on their books. There were pretty good at ENFORCEMENT against things they didn't like. But we "stole it" from them, so we are more thieves than trespassers, since we "took it" and own it. And at least we paid back for three states, fair and square.

If anything, you are an anchor baby. File a hardship grievance with the state to keep all your family together, since it would be difficult on you to separate you while you are being raised.

That is all circular nonsense anyway, the "aren't we all illegal" BS. It's a weak intellectual argument to justify non enforcement of our own CURRENT rules, in the here and now.

[ZahZoo]

They do. But I don't see legislators enacting harsh laws, and I don't see anybody enforcing the laws we already have. So that's who I primarily blame.

That's my main gripe... we don't need more laws/legistalation. We got plently... Let's kick up enforcement of the existing laws. Today might be a good day to start...

[Big Train]

Wow...even by Dem standards, this didn't take long...

Washington Times - Liberals seek health-care access for illegals (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/28/liberals-seek-health-care-access-for-illegals//print/)

Fearful that they're losing ground on immigration and health care, a group of House Democrats is pushing back and arguing that any health care bill should extend to all legal immigrants and allow illegal immigrants some access.

The Democrats, trying to stiffen their party's spines on the contentious issue, say it's unfair to bar illegal immigrants from paying their own way in a government-sponsored exchange. Legal immigrants, they say, regardless of how long they've been in the United States, should be able to get government-subsidized health care if they meet the other eligibility requirements.

"Legal permanent residents should be able to purchase their plans, and they should also be eligible for subsidies if they need it. Undocumented, if they can afford it, should be able to buy their own private plans. It keeps them out of the emergency room," said Rep. Michael M. Honda, California Democrat and chairman of the Congressional Asian Pacific American Caucus.

Mr. Honda was joined by more than 20 of his colleagues in two letters laying out the demands.

Coverage for immigrants is one of the thorniest issues in the health care debate, and one many Democratic leaders would like to avoid. But immigrant rights groups and the Democrats who sent the letters say they have to take a stand now.

President Obama has said he does not want health care proposals to cover illegal immigrants. The bill drawn up by Sen. Max Baucus, Montana Democrat and chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, excludes illegal immigrants from his proposed health care exchange.

Mr. Honda and his allies, though, say illegal immigrants should be allowed to pay for insurance if they can afford it, even if it comes through a government-established exchange. As a generally young, healthy part of the population, illegal immigrants could help reduce overall costs for those who buy into health exchange plans, the lawmakers said.

The Democrats' letters, however, do not issue ultimatums or threaten to withhold support for the bills if their requests aren't met.

The National Council of La Raza launched its own "flood their voice mail" campaign last week to put pressure on Mr. Baucus to expand coverage in his proposal to include all legal immigrants and to drop verification language in the legislation that would prevent illegal immigrants from obtaining coverage.

Mr. Honda told The Washington Times that he's not pushing for illegal immigrants to gain access to taxpayer-subsidized benefits. "That's an argument that's been done already," he said.

Rep. Steve King, Iowa Republican, said proposals that include government coverage for illegal immigrants leave him incredulous.

"If anybody can, with a straight face, advocate that we should provide health insurance for people who broke into our country, broke our law and for the most part are criminals, I don't know where they ever would draw the line," he said.

Mr. King, who opposes Democrats' health care plans in general, said illegal immigrant access in legislation "would be a poison pill that would cause health care to go down" to defeat.

Twenty-nine Democrats signed on to the letter on legal immigrants, while 21 signed the letter on covering illegal immigrants. Although the leadership of the Congressional Black Caucus signed the legal-immigrant letter in their capacity as CBC officials, they signed the other letter as individual members of Congress.

Under the 1996 welfare law overhaul, Congress restricted most federal benefits to longtime holders of green cards - those who have been in the country at least five years.

But Democrats chipped away at that rule when they reauthorized the State Children's Health Insurance Program earlier this year and allowed states to cover all immigrant children and pregnant women, regardless of how long they've been in the country.

In their letter, the Democrats said health care costs are much lower for legal immigrants than for native citizens.

"Immigrants are part of our families, our communities, our economy, and contribute to the fabric of America," they wrote. "It is simply wrong that their taxes would pay for public health insurance programs to which they are not allowed access."

[Big Train]

amazing...no comment from the libs. Getting washed over faster than acorn...