7 Months after Stimulus 49 of 50 states have lost jobs

[Big Train]

House Committee on Ways & Means - Republican (http://www.republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=150826)

To pull a Ford, it IS a Republican thing, but it IS also from the Ways and Means. Numbers are numbers...

7 Months After Stimulus 49 of 50 States Have Lost Jobs
America Now Over 6 Million Jobs Shy of Administration's Projections
Wednesday, October 21, 2009


The table below compares the White House's February 2009 projection of the number of jobs that would be created by the 2009 stimulus law (through the end of 2010) with the actual change in state payroll employment through September 2009 (the latest figures available). According to the data, 49 States and the District of Columbia have lost jobs since stimulus was enacted. Only North Dakota has seen net job creation following the February 2009 stimulus. While President Obama claimed the result of his stimulus bill would be the creation of 3.5 million jobs, the Nation has already lost a total of 2.7 million – a difference of 6.2 million jobs. To see how stimulus has failed your state, see the table below.

[FORD]

If the stimulus "failed", it's because the Repukes gutted it before it passed.

Reality is that most of this economic damage was already done last year, and some of the employers (greedy Repuke bastards that they are) held off on dropping the ax until after January 20 so they could blame it on a Democratic administration. All the jobs that got cut in late January and February? How transparent can you get?

[Guitar Shark]

While President Obama claimed the result of his stimulus bill would be the creation of 3.5 million jobs, the Nation has already lost a total of 2.7 million – a difference of 6.2 million jobs.

I'm pretty confident the claim was that the stimulus package would either create new jobs or retain existing jobs that would otherwise have been lost. So the above statement seems highly misleading to me.

[Guitar Shark]

If the stimulus "failed", it's because the Repukes gutted it before it passed.


Lame argument made even lamer by continued use of the "Repuke" term.

[Mushroom]

the White House's February 2009 projection... (through the end of 2010)

We still have time. :) the "Stimulus Package" wasn't only for saving jobs, but also investing in the future (education, infrastructure)

[Big Train]

I'm pretty confident the claim was that the stimulus package would either create new jobs or retain existing jobs that would otherwise have been lost. So the above statement seems highly misleading to me.

So maybe it should read "lost and/or failed to retain existing jobs".

[Nitro Express]

Here was our two choices:

Choice A) Let the banks and corporations fail. This would have taken the commercial real estate sector with it. The result would be huge job losses overnight, empty shells of commercial real estate all over. General Motors would be out of business. This would result in lot of angry people and probably lot's of civil unrest and riots. Then the survivors would come in and rebuild the economy (in theory).

Choice B) The taxpayer bails out the losers. The stimulus package. We avoid overnight mass job loses and lose jobs at a slower pace. Taxes go up substantially. The govt. runs failing businesses. This lessens the pain but prolongs it. Hopefully you die early so the tax burdon is on your kids and grandkids.

It was all a decision on what type of fucking we get. Hard, quick, and violent or slow and prolonged.

[Big Train]

Disagree. Looking at the numbers, we got both with or without the bailout.

Since the banks basically hoarded it anyway, we just gave away a shitload of money, got the job losses and are now getting the higher taxes.

The banks that were well positioned (i.e. Wells Fargo) swallowed up assests (Wachovia) dirt cheap and offered to return the money because the restrictions were too onerous. The poorly positioned ones (i.e Bof A) took the beating they were supposed to.

GM SHOULD have gone out of business. The TARP money would have been much better spent investing in new domestic automakers (i.e. Tesla) rather than trying to keep an old one with a toxic balance sheet going. Essentially they tried to do that with banks and automakers (clean the balance sheets Something that would advance his agenda (i.e. climate) and have created jobs.

NONE of it created jobs.

[Nitro Express]

All it did was slow the job loses and keep the economy going a bit. The banks were the big winners. How would you like it if you could speculate wildly and if you win, you keep the money and if you lose the taxpayer pays for your loses? The banks can intimidate people because they own everybody and everything. Big bullies they are.

[Nickdfresh]

Disagree. Looking at the numbers, we got both with or without the bailout.

Since the banks basically hoarded it anyway, we just gave away a shitload of money, got the job losses and are now getting the higher taxes.

The banks that were well positioned (i.e. Wells Fargo) swallowed up assests (Wachovia) dirt cheap and offered to return the money because the restrictions were too onerous. The poorly positioned ones (i.e Bof A) took the beating they were supposed to.

GM SHOULD have gone out of business. The TARP money would have been much better spent investing in new domestic automakers (i.e. Tesla) rather than trying to keep an old one with a toxic balance sheet going. Essentially they tried to do that with banks and automakers (clean the balance sheets Something that would advance his agenda (i.e. climate) and have created jobs.

NONE of it created jobs.

The Stimulus has retrenched jobs from one sector to another. For instance, construction workers that would have been laid off early working for home contractors are now working on projects being funded. Secondly, relatively little of the TARP has been spent as of yet and the economy is in the beginnings of a recovery.

And would the gutting of GM to fund a niche electric sports car company have only destroyed more jobs? Especially when GM is set to release a small car (The Chevy Cruz) that is far more refined than the dated, last generation Astra Cobalt/Pontiac G5 econobox they'd been schilling. BTW, the Cruz also may reportedly get 44 miles per gallon with a conventional gasoline (turbocharged) engine. Better than most hybrids!

[Big Train]

The "retrenched" jobs part is debatable given the overall job losses (See the other thread for the numbers). The projects being funded for the most part aren't even underway yet and have been dribbling out, as you said, so it's not as is the mass of workers in any industry has seen a benefit thus far.

A niche car company with technology being licensed to several major automakers (Daimler who recently bought a 10% stake) a new "common man" EV, a clean balance sheet (with investment, which would be attractive with government matching dollars, to hire workers and buy idle plants) and a willing worker base ready to rock, I don't understand what holding up GM did but cost a lot of money for very little bang in return.

[sadaist]

If the stimulus "failed", it's because the Repukes gutted it before it passed.




It was nearly a Trillion dollars. How is that "gutted"?

[sadaist]

I'm pretty confident the claim was that the stimulus package would either create new jobs or retain existing jobs that would otherwise have been lost. So the above statement seems highly misleading to me.


The whole problem with the entire "retain existing jobs" argument is there is absolutely no way to account for that. It's like measuring with units of smiles/joy/hope. Sounds great, but no way to prove success...and no way to disprove it.

[Nickdfresh]

The whole problem with the entire "retain existing jobs" argument is there is absolutely no way to account for that. It's like measuring with units of smiles/joy/hope. Sounds great, but no way to prove success...and no way to disprove it.

There's no way to get hard numbers as to how many jobs were saved where. But just about every mainstream economist believes that the Stimulus efforts prevented an even worse recession and shortened things...

[Big Train]

Which must mean that there was no way to accurately project those job saving numbers in the first place...which makes it bullshit, no?

[Dr. Love]

These charts are misleading. Look at the column headers:

Estimated Change in Jobs Through December 2010

vs

Actual Change in Jobs Through September 2009

I'm fine comparing the numbers, but it should be the estimate for 9/09 vs actuals by 9/09. Comparing them in this way is very misleading and disingenuous.

[Big Train]

I can see that argument to a point...it should be apples to apples.

But these numbers DO show that we aren't even on PACE to maintain the original forecasted projections.

[Dr. Love]

I agree. But I think it paints a more dire picture than may be the case (right now) and the situation in a year could be quite different (I hope)

[thome]

It is exactly as I said, a whole bunch of people who, would have a very hard time coming up with 4500.00 went and put a "Free 4500.00" down on a car they couln't -Normally- afford and soon they will all be served warrants for thier arrest for default, and thier "New Car" will be towed and the dealer will sell it a again............... EVERYBODY WINS!!!!!!!

Except for all the assholes who gave up thier working free paid off car that had probably a 45.00 per year property tax.......


But, Obama said it was cool man!

And -The Front- Guys said it was cool man!

A perfect lesson of how Douchmo'conts and the Liberals FUKK the ignorant and poor, all the while under the guise of helping them.

By giving false baseless bandaid cures that are hollow and achieve nothing.

Obama Quote...."The Goverment can't turn a profit we lost all your money now we need your help.......here is a fake 4500K for every dime you have".

Ok I made that quote up ...ooops actually I told it in what he really sais.

You know for the retards.

[standin]

Oh, fuck off thome!

[thome]

Oh, fuck off thome!


Are you stalking me, did I just see you drive by my trailor in a..... BRAND!!! NEW!!! CAR!!!........... Thatssssssssssss''' RIGHT BOB!!! it's a new Ford Focus, and It still has the temorary tag on it two months over due..

[standin]

Oh fuck off, I don't even own a car.
They do not come with drivers, what am I to do with a car?

[bueno bob]

Not surprising, of course.

Prior to Obama being elected, I do recall word that, stimulus or no, jobs were still going to be lost.

Point of the matter was the keep our economy functioning at a bare minimum and keep us all from going down the toilet as a country...

[sadaist]

Not surprising, of course.

Prior to Obama being elected, I do recall word that, stimulus or no, jobs were still going to be lost.

Point of the matter was the keep our economy functioning at a bare minimum and keep us all from going down the toilet as a country...



So what scenario do you envision had the stimulus not gone through?

[thome]

Not surprising, of course.

Prior to Obama being elected, I do recall word that, stimulus or no, jobs were still going to be lost.

Point of the matter was the keep our economy functioning at a bare minimum and keep us all from going down the toilet as a country...



It generated what close to 400 Million..?

I don't even know??? so this comment is bogus...but whatever....

That is supposed to balance the 400 Billion they gave the Auto Industry..?

Who are all defaulting on thier loan payments..ready to file the bancruptcy ....they put off on purpose, so the could collect that bail out money and then claim the chapter 8 as they planned all along..

And you all thought they were stupid...

[bueno bob]

And you all thought they were stupid...

No thome, not all of 'em...

:D

[binnie]

So what scenario do you envision had the stimulus not gone through?

Unimaginable chaos. Had the banks been allowed to crash, there would have been a snowballing of one business after another, and it would have had worldwide implications.....

[sadaist]

Unimaginable chaos. Had the banks been allowed to crash, there would have been a snowballing of one business after another, and it would have had worldwide implications.....


You're talking bailout, I'm talking stimulus. Both of which I disagreed with. Would things have been worse? Possibly. But I don't buy the doom & gloom that was served up to us. The weak fail & the strong eat up the pieces. We propped up the weak...temporarily. And now we still have them running, destined to fail again.

I honestly do not believe that the stimulus bill has made the last 7 months much different than they would have been without it. Unemployment has continued to rise, housing prices have continued to drop, foreclosures keep happening. The stimulus was just a payoff to everyone in congress to get all of their pet projects done and pay their markers.

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Unimaginable chaos. Had the banks been allowed to crash, there would have been a snowballing of one business after another, and it would have had worldwide implications.....

Maybe you're right, but now you have a government czar taking control of private sector salaries. The trickle down effect of this over time carries serious implications too. I heard Barney Frank mouthing off his support of government control over private sector salaries, claiming that tarp money would be taken back. From what I understand the banks did try to give money back and the government would not accept it. WTF!

[standin]

The fact is our economy is our biggest global threat and weakness at the same time.
The global, national, and local infrastructure of our economy, though horribly flawed as it is now with corruption and despondency, can be used against us or for us. An hostile or non-hostile economic take-over is not going to be set aside simply because we believe we can manage to make it through. If we screw with the global economy too much, we are as liable as any other nation and other nations know this.

[ELVIS]

The Stimulus has retrenched jobs from one sector to another. For instance, construction workers that would have been laid off early working for home contractors are now working on projects being funded.

That's total BS!!!

Give us one example before you make everything up!

[ELVIS]

The fact is our economy is our biggest global threat and weakness at the same time.
The global, national, and local infrastructure of our economy, though horribly flawed as it is now with corruption and despondency, can be used against us or for us. An hostile or non-hostile economic take-over is not going to be set aside simply because we believe we can manage to make it through. If we screw with the global economy too much, we are as liable as any other nation and other nations know this.

Please stop posting daydreams and feelings...

[bueno bob]

That's total BS!!!

Give us one example before you make everything up!

Uh oh!

Stimulus program saves or creates 491 jobs in Oregon on federal projects

By Charles Pope, The Oregonian
October 15, 2009, 2:47PM

WASHINGTON -- Federal contractors fueled with money from the $787 billion stimulus added or saved 491 jobs in Oregon and 30,000 more nationwide, the White House reported Thursday.

The Associated Press

In this April 23, 2009, file photo, Ed Pegler, left, Jason Ramirez, and Brian Wilkins, all with American Infrastructure, work on replacing a sidewalk ramp in Silver Spring, Md. The project is part of the economic stimulus package. Businesses that received federal contracts under the economic stimulus are reporting more than 30,000 jobs saved or created in the first months of the program.

Most of the jobs in Oregon were connected to work in national forests, water projects and defense-related programs while in other parts of the country jobs were centered on military bases or at Superfund sites. All the jobs were controlled directly by federal agencies.

In Oregon, the Army awarded 14 contracts worth $57.5 million while the Corps of Engineers approved 15 contracts valued at $9.2 million. The Department of Agriculture, which includes the Forest Service, wrote 17 contracts with a value of $6.5 million and the Department of Commerce approved three for $9.5 million.

Thursday's report is the latest in a series of stimulus updates that have been announced in recent days. Last week, for instance, Gov. Ted Kulongoski reported that 8,238 jobs had been saved or created by stimulus dollars in programs and services controlled by the state.

But the totals released Thursday are for only a tiny portion -- $16 billion -- of the $339 billion spent to date in an effort to stabilize and revive the economy. The 491 jobs for Oregon reported Thursday are in addition to those calculated by Kulongoski. By the end of the month, officials expect the numbers to jump substantially higher again as reports from local governments and private businesses receiving stimulus dollars report.

The construction industry reported the strongest job numbers, accounting for about a third of the jobs thanks to construction contracts to repair military bases. Colorado posted the largest increase of any state, reporting more than 4,700 jobs, largely thanks to a contract to set up a call center to field questions about the change to digital cable.

[bueno bob]

Please stop posting daydreams and feelings...

http://www.photoethnography.com/blog/images/jesus.jpg

Just sayin'...

[ELVIS]

And once the military bases are completed, then what ??

[Seshmeister]

Employ another 100 thousand mercenaries on 6 figure salaries to wander about terrorizing the people of Iraq?

For Jesus.

[standin]

Please stop posting daydreams and feelings...

Quit being delusional.

[ELVIS]

Employ another 100 thousand mercenaries on 6 figure salaries to wander about terrorizing the people of Iraq?

For Jesus.

The military doesn't work directly for Jesus...

[Nickdfresh]

Which must mean that there was no way to accurately project those job saving numbers in the first place...which makes it bullshit, no?

Or, whining nitpicking dicks are ignoring the fact that the Stimulus has prevented a far worse situation, and turned things around quicker preventing future unemployment, and facilitating full employment a couple years faster than otherwise would have been...

[Nickdfresh]

...
I honestly do not believe that the stimulus bill has made the last 7 months much different than they would have been without it....


Of course. That's because of what you want to believe.

[Nickdfresh]

That's total BS!!!

Give us one example before you make everything up!

You first, oh hunka hunka burning douche...

[Big Train]

Or, whining nitpicking dicks are ignoring the fact that the Stimulus has prevented a far worse situation, and turned things around quicker preventing future unemployment, and facilitating full employment a couple years faster than otherwise would have been...

Snark is working today, Mr. Highminded Debater.

It's not "whining or nitpicking" to point out the obvious.

I agree with Sadist, the bailout prevented the bottom from dropping out. By your own admission, the stimulus has barely been implemented yet. So you have to pick a scenario and stick with it:

A.The stimulus saved the world
B. The stimulus has barely been implemented yet and you need to give it time to work

[Nickdfresh]

I said most of the Stimulus funds haven't been spent yet. But the ones that were shored up the financial sector, one which could have pulled everything into a severe depression...

[ELVIS]

Ok, answer the next question...

Where are the stimulus funds ??

[Big Train]

I said most of the Stimulus funds haven't been spent yet. But the ones that were shored up the financial sector, one which could have pulled everything into a severe depression...

If you changed Stimulus to bailout and I would be more likely to agree. The job numbers have been too underwhelming to claim they shored up anything.

[ZahZoo]

Lame argument made even lamer by continued use of the "Repuke" term.

Have to agree... Ford's got his angle and passion for this crap, but statements like that make a box of rocks come off as reasonably bright...

[FORD]

Have to agree... Ford's got his angle and passion for this crap, but statements like that make a box of rocks come off as reasonably bright...

It's an insult to Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and Ike Eisenhower to call these present day tools "Republicans".

I can go back to "neocon shitbags" if you prefer.

[Nitro Express]

The stimulus is basically the most expensive vibrating butt plug in world history.

[Big Train]

The AP did some math...seems the White House's numbers are off. Apparently one construction job should only be counted ONE time. No more Acorn math...

The Associated Press: Stimulus jobs overstated by thousands (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jMNoef6xDenBbHWO0Im6rIjDmAgAD9BKKBIG0)

WASHINGTON — An early progress report on President Barack Obama's economic recovery plan overstates by thousands the number of jobs created or saved through the stimulus program, a mistake that White House officials promise will be corrected in future reports.

The government's first accounting of jobs tied to the $787 billion stimulus program claimed more than 30,000 positions paid for with recovery money. But that figure is overstated by least 5,000 jobs, according to an Associated Press review of a sample of stimulus contracts.

The AP review found some counts were more than 10 times as high as the actual number of jobs; some jobs credited to the stimulus program were counted two and sometimes more than four times; and other jobs were credited to stimulus spending when none was produced.

For example:

_ A company working with the Federal Communications Commission reported that stimulus money paid for 4,231 jobs, when about 1,000 were produced.

_ A Georgia community college reported creating 280 jobs with recovery money, but none was created from stimulus spending.

_ A Florida child care center said its stimulus money saved 129 jobs but used the money on raises for existing employees.

There's no evidence the White House sought to inflate job numbers in the report. But administration officials seized on the 30,000 figure as evidence that the stimulus program was on its way toward fulfilling the president's promise of creating or saving 3.5 million jobs by the end of next year.

The reporting problem could be magnified Friday when a much larger round of reports is expected to show hundreds of thousands of jobs repairing public housing, building schools, repaving highways and keeping teachers on local payrolls.

The White House says it is aware there are problems. In an interview, Ed DeSeve, an Obama adviser helping to oversee the stimulus program, said agencies have been working with businesses that received the money to correct mistakes. Other errors discovered by the public also will be corrected, he said.

"If there's an error that was made, let's get it fixed," DeSeve said.

The White House released a statement early Thursday that it said laid out the "real facts" about how jobs were counted in the stimulus data distributed two weeks ago. It said that had been a test run of a small subset of data that had been subjected only to three days of reviews, that it had already corrected "virtually all" the mistakes identified by the AP and that the discovery of mistakes "does not provide a statistically significant indication of the quality of the full reporting that will come on Friday."

The data partially reviewed by the AP for errors included all the data presently available, representing all known federal contracts awarded to businesses under the stimulus program. The figures being released Friday include different categories of stimulus spending by state governments, housing authorities, nonprofit groups and other organizations.

As of early Thursday, on its recovery.org Web site, the government was still citing 30,383 as the actual number of jobs linked so far to stimulus spending, despite the mistakes the White House has now acknowledged and said were being corrected.

It's not clear just how far off the 30,000 claim was. The AP's review was not an exhaustive accounting of all 9,000 contracts, but homed in on the most obvious cases where there were indications of duplications or misinterpretations.

While the thousands of overstated jobs represent a tiny sliver of the overall economy, they represent a significant percentage of the initial employment count credited to the stimulus program.

Tom Gavin, a spokesman for the White House budget office, attributed the errors to officials as well as recipients having to conduct such reporting for the first time.

In fact, the AP review shows some businesses undercounted the number of jobs funded under the stimulus program by not reporting jobs saved.

Here are some of the findings:

_ Colorado-based Teletech Government Solutions on a $28.3 million contract with the Federal Communications Commission for creation of a call center, reported creating 4,231 jobs, although 3,000 of those workers were paid for five weeks or less.

"We all felt it was an appropriate way to represent the data at the time" and the reporting error has been corrected, said company president Mariano Tan.

_ The Toledo, Ohio-based Koring Group received two FCC contracts, again for call centers. It reported hiring 26 people for each contract, or a total of 52 jobs, but cited the same workers for both contracts. The jobs only lasted about two months.

The FCC spotted the problem. The company's owner, Steve Holland, acknowledged the actual job count is closer to five and blamed the problem on confusion about the reporting.

The AP's review identified nearly 600 contracts claiming stimulus money for more than 2,700 jobs that appear to have similar duplicated counts.

_ Barbara Moore, executive director of the Child Care Association of Brevard County in Cocoa, Fla., reported that the $98,669 she received in stimulus money saved 129 jobs at her center, though the cash was used to give her 129 employees a 3.9 percent cost-of-living raise. She said she needed to boost their salaries because some workers had left "because we had not been able to give them a raise in four years."

_ Officials at East Central Technical College in Douglas, Ga., said they now know they shouldn't have claimed 280 stimulus jobs linked to more than $200,000 to buy trucks and trailers for commercial driving instruction, and a modular classroom and bathroom for a health education program.

"It was an error on someone's part," said Mike Light, spokesman for the Technical College System of Georgia. The 280 were not jobs, but the number of students who would benefit, he said.

_ The San Joaquin, Calif., Regional Rail Commission reported creating or saving 125 jobs as part of a stimulus project to lay railroad track. Because the project drew from two pools of money, the commission reported the jobs figure twice, bringing the total to 250 on the government report. Spokesman Thomas Reeves said the commission corrected the data Tuesday.

[ELVIS]

Hmmm...

[Fuct Jup]

The AP did some math...seems the White House's numbers are off. Apparently one construction job should only be counted ONE time. No more Acorn math...

The Associated Press: Stimulus jobs overstated by thousands (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jMNoef6xDenBbHWO0Im6rIjDmAgAD9BKKBIG0)

WASHINGTON — An early progress report on President Barack Obama's economic recovery plan overstates by thousands the number of jobs created or saved through the stimulus program, a mistake that White House officials promise will be corrected in future reports.

The government's first accounting of jobs tied to the $787 billion stimulus program claimed more than 30,000 positions paid for with recovery money. But that figure is overstated by least 5,000 jobs, according to an Associated Press review of a sample of stimulus contracts.

The AP review found some counts were more than 10 times as high as the actual number of jobs; some jobs credited to the stimulus program were counted two and sometimes more than four times; and other jobs were credited to stimulus spending when none was produced.

For example:

_ A company working with the Federal Communications Commission reported that stimulus money paid for 4,231 jobs, when about 1,000 were produced.

_ A Georgia community college reported creating 280 jobs with recovery money, but none was created from stimulus spending.

_ A Florida child care center said its stimulus money saved 129 jobs but used the money on raises for existing employees.

There's no evidence the White House sought to inflate job numbers in the report. But administration officials seized on the 30,000 figure as evidence that the stimulus program was on its way toward fulfilling the president's promise of creating or saving 3.5 million jobs by the end of next year.

The reporting problem could be magnified Friday when a much larger round of reports is expected to show hundreds of thousands of jobs repairing public housing, building schools, repaving highways and keeping teachers on local payrolls.

The White House says it is aware there are problems. In an interview, Ed DeSeve, an Obama adviser helping to oversee the stimulus program, said agencies have been working with businesses that received the money to correct mistakes. Other errors discovered by the public also will be corrected, he said.

"If there's an error that was made, let's get it fixed," DeSeve said.

The White House released a statement early Thursday that it said laid out the "real facts" about how jobs were counted in the stimulus data distributed two weeks ago. It said that had been a test run of a small subset of data that had been subjected only to three days of reviews, that it had already corrected "virtually all" the mistakes identified by the AP and that the discovery of mistakes "does not provide a statistically significant indication of the quality of the full reporting that will come on Friday."

The data partially reviewed by the AP for errors included all the data presently available, representing all known federal contracts awarded to businesses under the stimulus program. The figures being released Friday include different categories of stimulus spending by state governments, housing authorities, nonprofit groups and other organizations.

As of early Thursday, on its recovery.org Web site, the government was still citing 30,383 as the actual number of jobs linked so far to stimulus spending, despite the mistakes the White House has now acknowledged and said were being corrected.

It's not clear just how far off the 30,000 claim was. The AP's review was not an exhaustive accounting of all 9,000 contracts, but homed in on the most obvious cases where there were indications of duplications or misinterpretations.

While the thousands of overstated jobs represent a tiny sliver of the overall economy, they represent a significant percentage of the initial employment count credited to the stimulus program.

Tom Gavin, a spokesman for the White House budget office, attributed the errors to officials as well as recipients having to conduct such reporting for the first time.

In fact, the AP review shows some businesses undercounted the number of jobs funded under the stimulus program by not reporting jobs saved.

Here are some of the findings:

_ Colorado-based Teletech Government Solutions on a $28.3 million contract with the Federal Communications Commission for creation of a call center, reported creating 4,231 jobs, although 3,000 of those workers were paid for five weeks or less.

"We all felt it was an appropriate way to represent the data at the time" and the reporting error has been corrected, said company president Mariano Tan.

_ The Toledo, Ohio-based Koring Group received two FCC contracts, again for call centers. It reported hiring 26 people for each contract, or a total of 52 jobs, but cited the same workers for both contracts. The jobs only lasted about two months.

The FCC spotted the problem. The company's owner, Steve Holland, acknowledged the actual job count is closer to five and blamed the problem on confusion about the reporting.

The AP's review identified nearly 600 contracts claiming stimulus money for more than 2,700 jobs that appear to have similar duplicated counts.

_ Barbara Moore, executive director of the Child Care Association of Brevard County in Cocoa, Fla., reported that the $98,669 she received in stimulus money saved 129 jobs at her center, though the cash was used to give her 129 employees a 3.9 percent cost-of-living raise. She said she needed to boost their salaries because some workers had left "because we had not been able to give them a raise in four years."

_ Officials at East Central Technical College in Douglas, Ga., said they now know they shouldn't have claimed 280 stimulus jobs linked to more than $200,000 to buy trucks and trailers for commercial driving instruction, and a modular classroom and bathroom for a health education program.

"It was an error on someone's part," said Mike Light, spokesman for the Technical College System of Georgia. The 280 were not jobs, but the number of students who would benefit, he said.

_ The San Joaquin, Calif., Regional Rail Commission reported creating or saving 125 jobs as part of a stimulus project to lay railroad track. Because the project drew from two pools of money, the commission reported the jobs figure twice, bringing the total to 250 on the government report. Spokesman Thomas Reeves said the commission corrected the data Tuesday.

This administration is a fucking JOKE. My left nut could do a better job than Obama. I hope all you Fucks that voted for him get what coming to ya. :biggrin:

[ELVIS]

I pray they don't...

[Nickdfresh]

This administration is a fucking JOKE. My left nut could do a better job than Obama. I hope all you Fucks that voted for him get what coming to ya. :biggrin:

You mean like the GDP expanding an unexpectedly high 3.5% last quarter, dipshit?

[VanHalenFan5150]

We still have time. :) the "Stimulus Package" wasn't only for saving jobs, but also investing in the future (education, infrastructure)

And bailing out banks. At least, that is what I hear. I know i'm really in no position to be talking about politics (and frankly, I really don't care, but understand how important they are), and my limited knowledge is only partially correct, at best.

[Blackflag]

I know i'm really in no position to be talking about politics (and frankly, I really don't care, but understand how important they are), and my limited knowledge is only partially correct, at best.

That puts you in the top 10% of The Front Line.

[hideyoursheep]

The stimulus is basically the most expensive vibrating butt plug in world history.

Did you cash the $300 checks that Bush sent to you?

[Seshmeister]

It would have been better if he hadn't invaded Iraq and sent a check for $4400 instead.

[Seshmeister]

And bailing out banks. At least, that is what I hear. I know i'm really in no position to be talking about politics (and frankly, I really don't care, but understand how important they are), and my limited knowledge is only partially correct, at best.

You'll be paying for it until you're about 40.

[ZahZoo]

You mean like the GDP expanding an unexpectedly high 3.5% last quarter, dipshit?

Show me one piece of verifiable evidence that the Obama administration directly contributed to any part of the GDP of the US? :hee:

[Nickdfresh]

Show me one piece of verifiable evidence that the Obama administration directly contributed to any part of the GDP of the US? :hee:

Sure, right after you show me "verifiable evidence" that it's Obama's fault the economy is in the shitter and unemployment is nearing 10%. Or that things would be any better under a McPalin administration..

[ZahZoo]

Sure, right after you show me "verifiable evidence" that it's Obama's fault the economy is in the shitter and unemployment is nearing 10%. Or that things would be any better under a McPalin administration..

I've never asserted the current economy is any fault of Obama's... ever.

My position has always been that the White House has had very little impact on the overall economy in the US historically. Every adminsitration has tried to claim successes and blame failures of various administrations over time... reality... much of what goes on in Washington has nothing to do with the economy directly. Indirectly... yes taxes and regulatory legislation has proved to have an effect over time, good and terrible...

Congress has had more of hand overall... the current situation is a result of deregulation and piss poor regulatory oversight in the banking/Wall St areas. Add to that a lot of criminal activity in the financial industry. I'm still amazed at the lack of prosecution that's not occurring right now...

The failure of the auto industry was self induced and had nothing to do with government.

Obama's presidency caused none of this... he just gets to steer the ship through the times. Although I'm not convinced the handling of our tax dollars are helping anything much at present...

GW Bush's administration had a hand in things... but frankly a lot of the root here was put into play before he was elected.

The bigger picture though is what businesses have done... the whole financial and insurance industry holds a huge hand in what got us here. Auto companies should have been allowed to fail... economic catastrophy... yep. But the $$billions$$ spent were mostly wasted IMO.

[Big Train]

And the Shell Games of trying to figure out what was "Saved' vs. "Created" continue:

Not all jobs 'saved' by stimulus were in danger | Columbus Dispatch Politics (http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2009/11/03/copy/stimulus_jobs.ART_ART_11-03-09_B1_RDFIAA5.html?adsec=politics&sid=101)

Not all jobs 'saved' by stimulus were in danger
Tuesday, November 3, 2009



The Obama administration announced Friday that federal stimulus money had created or saved about 7,200 education jobs in Ohio as of Sept. 30.

Although a couple of hundred of those jobs were in Columbus City Schools, the district acknowledged yesterday that many of the "saved" jobs definitely wouldn't have been lost in the first place, and others might not have been lost at all.

"I know we explained to (the Ohio Department of Education) what we were doing, and they told us what categories to use," said Jill Dannemiller, director of federal programs for the Columbus schools.

Although other areas of the district's budget might have suffered without the stimulus, district officials said, the jobs report nonetheless highlighted the fuzzy math involved in pinpointing a saved-jobs number.

The Obama administration announced Friday that about 640,000 jobs had been created or saved by the $787 billion stimulus package, with 325,000 of them in education. It didn't differentiate between saved jobs and created jobs.

Federal Education Secretary Arne Duncan said in a conference call with reporters yesterday that the country has "325,000 who would literally not be in the classroom today if not for these funds." But not in Columbus, where the district's finances looked pretty solid before the stimulus. Voters passed a levy last November that should keep the district's books largely in the black until 2012.

Of the 212.5 full-time equivalent jobs the district said were funded with part of the $64 million in stimulus it expects to receive, about 65 percent were "saved," including 36 principals and assistant principals.

So was the district on the verge of laying off 36 school administrators?

"No," Dannemiller said, explaining that the reporting choices were "created" and "saved."

"They weren't 'created,' obviously, so our only other choice was 'saved.' "

The federal Office of Management and Budget told agencies in June to define a "saved" job as "an existing position that would not have been continued to be filled were it not for Recovery Act funding."

District spokeswoman Kim Norris said the "stabilization" part of the stimulus -- designed to make up state education aid to districts that otherwise might have been cut -- makes up about 6 percent of Columbus schools' state aid. So, she said, if it hadn't been for the stimulus money, the district "would have had some decisions as what to do with that shortfall."

So although 36 principal jobs were not specifically saved, something likely got saved somewhere in the budget, she said.

Columbus also reported the full-time equivalent of 84 part-time reading tutors' jobs saved, plus six teachers who work in the district's most academically troubled schools.

Still, it's difficult to attribute those jobs' survival to the stimulus spending, Dannemiller said.

"It's a difficult question because we didn't have to face that question, because we knew the money was coming," she said.

The district doesn't know what will happen to the positions when the stimulus money runs out, Dannemiller said. The district might end up keeping them, depending on its financial situation.

[Fuct Jup]

:hitch:

After a flurry of stimulus spending, questionable projects pile up | Washington Examiner (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/After-a-flurry-of-stimulus-spending_-questionable-projects-pile-up-8474249-68709732.html)

Sources: News reports, Office of the Senate Minority Leader, Office of Sen. Tom Coburn

The $787 billion stimulus bill was passed in February and was promised as a job saver and economy booster. Here is where some of the money went:

- $300,000 for a GPS-equipped helicopter to hunt for radioactive rabbit droppings at the Hanford nuclear reservation in Washington state.

- $30 million for a spring training baseball complex for the Arizona Diamondbacks and Colorado Rockies.

- $11 million for Microsoft to build a bridge connecting its two headquarter campuses in Redmond, Wash., which are separated by a highway.

- $430,000 to repair a bridge in Iowa County, Wis., that carries 10 or fewer cars per day.

- $800,000 for the John Murtha Airport in Johnstown, Pa., serving about 20 passengers per day, to build a backup runway.

- $219,000 for Syracuse University to study the sex lives of freshmen women.

- $2.3 million for the U.S. Forest Service to rear large numbers of arthropods, including the Asian longhorned beetle, the nun moth and the woolly adelgid.

- $3.4 million for a 13-foot tunnel for turtles and other wildlife attempting to cross U.S. 27 in Lake Jackson, Fla.

- $1.15 million to install a guardrail for a persistently dry lake bed in Guymon, Okla.

- $9.38 million to renovate a century-old train depot in Lancaster County, Pa., that has not been used for three decades.

- $2.5 million in stimulus checks sent to the deceased.

- $6 million for a snow-making facility in Duluth, Minn.

- $173,834 to weatherize eight pickup trucks in Madison County, Ill.

- $20,000 for a fish sperm freezer at the Gavins Point National Fish Hatchery in South Dakota.

- $380,000 to spay and neuter pets in Wichita, Kan.

- $300 apiece for thousands of signs at road construction sites across the country announcing that the projects are funded by stimulus money.

- $1.5 million for a fence to block would-be jumpers from leaping off the All-American Bridge in Akron, Ohio.

- $1 million to study the health effects of environmentally friendly public housing on 300 people in Chicago.

- $356,000 for Indiana University to study childhood comprehension of foreign accents compared with native speech.

- $983,952 for street beautification in Ann Arbor, Mich., including decorative lighting, trees, benches and bike paths.

- $148,438 for Washington State University to analyze the use of marijuana in conjunction with medications like morphine.

- $462,000 to purchase 22 concrete toilets for use in the Mark Twain National Forest in Missouri

- $3.1 million to transform a canal barge into a floating museum that will travel the Erie Canal in New York state.

- $1.3 million on government arts jobs in Maine, including $30,000 for basket makers, $20,000 for storytelling and $12,500 for a music festival.

- $71,000 for a hybrid car to be used by student drivers in Colchester, Vt., as well as a plug-in hybrid for town workers decked out with a sign touting the vehicle's energy efficiency.

- $1 million for Portland, Ore., to replace 100 aging bike lockers and build a garage that would house 250 bicycles.

[Big Train]

All solid "Job Creating and/Or Saving".

Shovel-Ready indeed....feed the sheep.

[Nickdfresh]

I've never asserted the current economy is any fault of Obama's... ever.

My position has always been that the White House has had very little impact on the overall economy in the US historically. Every adminsitration has tried to claim successes and blame failures of various administrations over time... reality... much of what goes on in Washington has nothing to do with the economy directly. Indirectly... yes taxes and regulatory legislation has proved to have an effect over time, good and terrible...

Congress has had more of hand overall... the current situation is a result of deregulation and piss poor regulatory oversight in the banking/Wall St areas. Add to that a lot of criminal activity in the financial industry. I'm still amazed at the lack of prosecution that's not occurring right now...

The failure of the auto industry was self induced and had nothing to do with government.

Obama's presidency caused none of this... he just gets to steer the ship through the times. Although I'm not convinced the handling of our tax dollars are helping anything much at present...

GW Bush's administration had a hand in things... but frankly a lot of the root here was put into play before he was elected.

The bigger picture though is what businesses have done... the whole financial and insurance industry holds a huge hand in what got us here. Auto companies should have been allowed to fail... economic catastrophy... yep. But the $$billions$$ spent were mostly wasted IMO.


I don't disagree with most of what you say. Especially when it comes to the White House having little direct on the economy generally, in normal times. Carter had little directly to do with the recession that happened mostly after his presidency was over, and Reagan really can't claim all that much credit for the recovery. However, Hoover's inaction is generally recognized to have been disastrous and a catalyst for concurrent economic meltdowns that constitute the Great Depression. I do think that Obama's policies stopped much of the bleeding and limited the recession to a minor depression as opposed to the "Great" one it could have become. Maybe even Bush deserves some credit for that as well? Everything I've read says that most economists agree with me...

But yes, the efforts are temporary and you can't spend your way out of a bad economy, at least the gov't can't...

[Nickdfresh]

:hitch:

After a flurry of stimulus spending, questionable projects pile up | Washington Examiner (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/After-a-flurry-of-stimulus-spending_-questionable-projects-pile-up-8474249-68709732.html)

Sources: News reports, Office of the Senate Minority Leader, Office of Sen. Tom Coburn

The $787 billion stimulus bill was passed in February and was promised as a job saver and economy booster. Here is where some of the money went:

- $300,000 for a GPS-equipped helicopter to hunt for radioactive rabbit droppings at the Hanford nuclear reservation in Washington state.

- $30 million for a spring training baseball complex for the Arizona Diamondbacks and Colorado Rockies.

- $11 million for Microsoft to build a bridge connecting its two headquarter campuses in Redmond, Wash., which are separated by a highway.

- $430,000 to repair a bridge in Iowa County, Wis., that carries 10 or fewer cars per day.

- $800,000 for the John Murtha Airport in Johnstown, Pa., serving about 20 passengers per day, to build a backup runway.

- $219,000 for Syracuse University to study the sex lives of freshmen women.

- $2.3 million for the U.S. Forest Service to rear large numbers of arthropods, including the Asian longhorned beetle, the nun moth and the woolly adelgid.

- $3.4 million for a 13-foot tunnel for turtles and other wildlife attempting to cross U.S. 27 in Lake Jackson, Fla.

- $1.15 million to install a guardrail for a persistently dry lake bed in Guymon, Okla.

- $9.38 million to renovate a century-old train depot in Lancaster County, Pa., that has not been used for three decades.

- $2.5 million in stimulus checks sent to the deceased.

- $6 million for a snow-making facility in Duluth, Minn.

- $173,834 to weatherize eight pickup trucks in Madison County, Ill.

- $20,000 for a fish sperm freezer at the Gavins Point National Fish Hatchery in South Dakota.

- $380,000 to spay and neuter pets in Wichita, Kan.

- $300 apiece for thousands of signs at road construction sites across the country announcing that the projects are funded by stimulus money.

- $1.5 million for a fence to block would-be jumpers from leaping off the All-American Bridge in Akron, Ohio.

- $1 million to study the health effects of environmentally friendly public housing on 300 people in Chicago.

- $356,000 for Indiana University to study childhood comprehension of foreign accents compared with native speech.

- $983,952 for street beautification in Ann Arbor, Mich., including decorative lighting, trees, benches and bike paths.

- $148,438 for Washington State University to analyze the use of marijuana in conjunction with medications like morphine.

- $462,000 to purchase 22 concrete toilets for use in the Mark Twain National Forest in Missouri

- $3.1 million to transform a canal barge into a floating museum that will travel the Erie Canal in New York state.

- $1.3 million on government arts jobs in Maine, including $30,000 for basket makers, $20,000 for storytelling and $12,500 for a music festival.

- $71,000 for a hybrid car to be used by student drivers in Colchester, Vt., as well as a plug-in hybrid for town workers decked out with a sign touting the vehicle's energy efficiency.

- $1 million for Portland, Ore., to replace 100 aging bike lockers and build a garage that would house 250 bicycles.

Oh how outrageous!! You mean the gov't is spending money on infrastructure, reclamation, and other projects relating to scientific study?

Most of the above would only be "controversial" to a complete fuckwit and makes sense when thought about in context. The above is a much better use of money than---say---the military building stealthy, super high tech F-22 Raptors, which although I admit to being completely fucking awesome in every way :), have no real justifiable mission and whose function can be done much cheaper by upgraded current F-15s and F-16s!..

[Big Train]

It's not "outrageous" as in anyone being shocked by this (it's the government), but it was sold as job creating. Stimulus checks for the deceased, buying toilets and buying a hybrid car did not create a SINGLE job.

For those of us opposed to the stimulus to begin with, this does not impress.

[ODShowtime]

7 Months After Stimulus 49 of 50 States Have Lost Jobs

The stimulus package spending included tremendous oversight and audit requirements. Even without that, it takes awhile to allocate and approve all that spending. Positions need to be added to budgets that are approved by boards. Beyond the fact that this garbage pile of rot began before the latest administration took office, it takes more than 7 months to spend all that money!

BTW I got laid off in August and it was horrible. Worst market of my life by far... and I just started a new job on Monday. Thank goodness I do the same thing for the same pay in the same place. I'm skilled and lucky, many around me are screwed. And where I live the unemployment rate is above the national average. You can see the recession kill spending and happiness around here.

[ODShowtime]

The $787 billion stimulus bill was passed in February and was promised as a job saver and economy booster. Here is where some of the money went:

- $219,000 for Syracuse University to study the sex lives of freshmen women.

- $148,438 for Washington State University to analyze the use of marijuana in conjunction with medications like morphine.



Man they could give me $100 grand to consolidate these two studies and save some loot. There are profound truths to be discovered!!

[Big Train]

The stimulus package spending included tremendous oversight and audit requirements. Even without that, it takes awhile to allocate and approve all that spending. Positions need to be added to budgets that are approved by boards. Beyond the fact that this garbage pile of rot began before the latest administration took office, it takes more than 7 months to spend all that money!

BTW I got laid off in August and it was horrible. Worst market of my life by far... and I just started a new job on Monday. Thank goodness I do the same thing for the same pay in the same place. I'm skilled and lucky, many around me are screwed. And where I live the unemployment rate is above the national average. You can see the recession kill spending and happiness around here.

Even with that ( a theory Nick has kicked around as well), how does anyone justify buying 22 toilets as a stimulus for job creation? That was the original and specific intent and none of money spent thus far (as small as it may be) has really created Job One thus far. That's the real problem. Multiplying that out, I don't see a huge upside to the stimulus.

[Big Train]

Man they could give me $100 grand to consolidate these two studies and save some loot. There are profound truths to be discovered!!

Is it possible to be both a study participant and author of the study? I would guess if we consolidated both studies we would get better results AND save money.

[Nickdfresh]

It's not "outrageous" as in anyone being shocked by this (it's the government), but it was sold as job creating.

It was never 'sold' as solely job creation...


Stimulus checks for the deceased,

Like the estate tax?


buying toilets and buying a hybrid car did not create a SINGLE job.

Um, increasing consumption increases demand, which in turn increases production, which then increases jobs...


For those of us opposed to the stimulus to begin with, this does not impress.

I'm sure it doesn't. If stories about the majority of economist agreeing that the stimulus did benefit the economy and kept us from a teetering edge don't "convince" you, nothing will!

[Big Train]

It was never 'sold' as solely job creation...

It was sold on that basis, with added side effects. Intellectually dishonest to not say so.

Like the estate tax?

I've never seen a case where someone got a check for their estate tax.

Um, increasing consumption increases demand, which in turn increases production, which then increases jobs...

Buying ONE car increases consumption a fraction of a fraction. Nobody adds jobs to the production line based on that..

I'm sure it doesn't. If stories about the majority of economist agreeing that the stimulus did benefit the economy and kept us from a teetering edge don't "convince" you, nothing will!

If the majority of weatherman claim downpours and I see sunny skies, your right, it doesn't.

[Fuct Jup]

Oh how outrageous!! You mean the gov't is spending money on infrastructure, reclamation, and other projects relating to scientific study?

Most of the above would only be "controversial" to a complete fuckwit and makes sense when thought about in context. The above is a much better use of money than---say---the military building stealthy, super high tech F-22 Raptors, which although I admit to being completely fucking awesome in every way :), have no real justifiable mission and whose function can be done much cheaper by upgraded current F-15s and F-16s!..


Fucking DemoCunt logic. What a fucking joke!

[Nickdfresh]

Fucking DemoCunt logic. What a fucking joke!

Read my other post above, when you're not raping your Ronald Reagan fuck doll, idiot...

[Nickdfresh]

It was never 'sold' as solely job creation...

It was sold on that basis, with added side effects. Intellectually dishonest to not say so.

It's sold as an economic stimulus as much to prevent job losses more than to reverse them. Feel free to post the adverts

Like the estate tax?

I've never seen a case where someone got a check for their estate tax.

No. But whether they get a check, or the gov't doesn't tax them, the net effect is the same...

Um, increasing consumption increases demand, which in turn increases production, which then increases jobs...

Buying ONE car increases consumption a fraction of a fraction. Nobody adds jobs to the production line based on that..

They also don't lay-off those making those cars as well...

(And Ford turns a $1 billion profit).

I'm sure it doesn't. If stories about the majority of economist agreeing that the stimulus did benefit the economy and kept us from a teetering edge don't "convince" you, nothing will!

If the majority of weatherman claim downpours and I see sunny skies, your right, it doesn't.

Right, accept you see sunny skies on your sphincter...

[Big Train]

Once again, Nick employs the age old intellectual high road (or more accurately, personal preference) of talking about other men's asses.

Obama's speeches are everywhere, feel free to look them up.

I've never seen a case whether the government has NOT taxed an estate.

Ford turned a 1 Billion dollar profit by having a smart mix of cars and staying out of the crosshairs of government "help". When GM or Chrysler turn in a 1 Bil profit, let me know.

[Nickdfresh]

Once again, Nick employs the age old intellectual high road (or more accurately, personal preference) of talking about other men's asses.

Actually, I was talking about your helmet. :)


Obama's speeches are everywhere, feel free to look them up.

Thanks. I was wondering if you could be more vague?


I've never seen a case whether the government has NOT taxed an estate.

I've seen where they've rolled back most of the rate. And I've seen the GOP make a huge issue out of something that only effects the very richest and maybe 2% of the population...


Ford turned a 1 Billion dollar profit by having a smart mix of cars and staying out of the crosshairs of government "help". When GM or Chrysler turn in a 1 Bil profit, let me know.

Ford's done well, and is ahead of the other two largely because they've had a very good European division with some very good cars. But they also got lucky and borrowed a fuck lot of money BEFORE the whole subprime-led credit meltdown...

[Big Train]

Actually, I was talking about your helmet. :)

Whatever you want to call it, it's still gay of you.

Thanks. I was wondering if you could be more vague?

Something about "saved" jobs...was quite vague to begin with, sorry I can't give you more detail.

I've seen where they've rolled back most of the rate. And I've seen the GOP make a huge issue out of something that only effects the very richest and maybe 2% of the population...

Which makes your original point of bringing it up retarded, since they still DO tax it and it only affects the top 2% (which is BS, since anyone with any appreciable assests has an "estate", it actually effects most upper middle class as well), which is why it's a big issue


Ford's done well, and is ahead of the other two largely because they've had a very good European division with some very good cars. But they also got lucky and borrowed a fuck lot of money BEFORE the whole subprime-led credit meltdown...

So we agree, they had good cars. And a lil luck. GM had none, except the government.

[Nickdfresh]

Actually, I was talking about your helmet. :)

Whatever you want to call it, it's still gay of you.

Except your the one with your head in an asshole.

Thanks. I was wondering if you could be more vague?

Something about "saved" jobs...was quite vague to begin with, sorry I can't give you more detail.

Right, so you're full of shit (as usual).

I've seen where they've rolled back most of the rate. And I've seen the GOP make a huge issue out of something that only effects the very richest and maybe 2% of the population...

Which makes your original point of bringing it up retarded, since they still DO tax it and it only affects the top 2% (which is BS, since anyone with any appreciable assests has an "estate", it actually effects most upper middle class as well), which is why it's a big issue

Define "upper classes" and their "assests." :)


Ford's done well, and is ahead of the other two largely because they've had a very good European division with some very good cars. But they also got lucky and borrowed a fuck lot of money BEFORE the whole subprime-led credit meltdown...

So we agree, they had good cars. And a lil luck. GM had none, except the government.

GM had them too, and actually have a nice line coming out that was in the design pipeline bankruptcy and "gov't motors" or not. Ford was smaller and leaner and was able to get rid of their Euro subsidiaries much easier...

[Big Train]

Ah, gay overtones, now spelling corrections. Good times...

Upper Class. Material possessions in excess of 1 mil. A nice house, bank accounts and you are there. Maybe you don't know anyone with those things..

Ford was smaller and leaner, exactly, was being run well. GM was not. There is your problem right there..

[Big Train]

And yes, I'M Full of shit about the stimulus....right...

The Associated Press: STIMULUS WATCH: Salary raise counted as saved job (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jMNoef6xDenBbHWO0Im6rIjDmAgAD9BOJH300)

STIMULUS WATCH: Salary raise counted as saved job
By BRETT J. BLACKLEDGE and MATT APUZZO – 17 hours ago

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama's economic recovery program saved 935 jobs at the Southwest Georgia Community Action Council, an impressive success story for the stimulus plan. Trouble is, only 508 people work there.

The Georgia nonprofit's inflated job count is among persisting errors in the government's latest effort to measure the effect of the $787 billion stimulus plan despite White House promises last week that the new data would undergo an "extensive review" to root out errors discovered in an earlier report.

About two-thirds of the 14,506 jobs claimed to be saved under one federal office, the Administration for Children and Families at Health and Human Services, actually weren't saved at all, according to a review of the latest data by The Associated Press. Instead, that figure includes more than 9,300 existing employees in hundreds of local agencies who received pay raises and benefits and whose jobs weren't saved.

That type of accounting was found in an earlier AP review of stimulus jobs, which the Obama administration said was misleading because most of the government's job-counting errors were being fixed in the new data.

The administration now acknowledges overcounting in the new numbers for the HHS program. Elizabeth Oxhorn, a spokeswoman for the White House recovery office, said the Obama administration was reviewing the Head Start data "to determine how and if it will be counted."

But officials defended the practice of counting raises as saved jobs.

"If I give you a raise, it is going to save a portion of your job," HHS spokesman Luis Rosero said.

The latest stimulus report, released Friday, significantly overstates the number of jobs spared with money from programs serving families and children, mostly the Head Start preschool program. The report shows hundreds of the programs used nearly $323 million to provide pay raises and other benefits to their existing employees.

The raises themselves were appropriate — the stimulus law set aside money for Head Start salary increases — but converting that number into jobs proved difficult. The Obama administration told Head Start officials to consider a fraction of each employee as a job saved.

"That's more than ridiculous," said Antonia Ferrier, a spokeswoman for Republican House Minority Leader John Boehner.

Many Head Start programs around the country went further, counting everyone who received a raise as a job saved.

"It's a glitch in the system," said Ben Allen, the research director at the National Head Start Association. "There was some misunderstanding among some in the Head Start community about completing the reporting requirements."

Allen said a cost-of-living adjustment "may not be viewed traditionally as a job saved, but one could interpret it that, by providing COLA, you're retaining staff."

The Bergen County Community Action Program in Hackensack, N.J., noted the nearly $213,000 it received went to cover raises for existing staff only, but it also reported saving 85 jobs.

At Southwest Georgia Community Action Council in Moultrie, Ga., director Myrtis Mulkey-Ndawula said she followed the guidelines the Obama administration provided. She said she multiplied the 508 employees by 1.84 — the percentage pay raise they received — and came up with 935 jobs saved.

"I would say it's confusing at best," she said. "But we followed the instructions we were given."

Ed DeSeve, who oversees the stimulus at the White House, said the Head Start numbers "represent a few percent of all jobs reported" and said the problems would probably be balanced out by other errors that underreported jobs.

"So we don't expect any corrections to this data to meaningfully impact the total 640,000 direct jobs," DeSeve said.

More than 250 other community agencies in the U.S. similarly reported saving jobs when using the money to give pay raises, to pay for training and continuing education, to extend employee work hours or to buy equipment, according to their spending reports.

Other agencies didn't count the raises as jobs saved, reporting zero jobs.

Last week's stimulus report claimed 640,000 jobs saved or created by the economic recovery plan so far. Those jobs came from 156,614 federal contracts, grants and loans awarded to more than 62,000 recipients, worth a total of $215 billion.

Obama has promised the stimulus would save or create 3.5 million jobs by the end of next year, and the data released Friday represented the first head count toward that goal.

[Nickdfresh]

Ah, gay overtones, now spelling corrections. Good times...

Keeps you comin' back for more...


Upper Class. Material possessions in excess of 1 mil. A nice house, bank accounts and you are there. Maybe you don't know anyone with those things..

Like the guy I work with? He's a bit of a drunk and doesn't give a fuck about much except for gambling and tenuously holding onto his job because it's the only thing keeping him from drinking himself to death.

He doesn't sit around bitching about taxes and Democrats on message boards though, because I've found that people with money I know tend not to give too much of a fuck about it when we're talking small percentages...


Ford was smaller and leaner, exactly, was being run well. GM was not. There is your problem right there..

Ford was in the toilet with them and many thought they were done before GM. They saved themselves by generating a little buzz in Europe and stocking up on loan equity before the credit markets shit the bed. And skyrocketing gas prices actually helped because they had a really cheap small car with no overhead (the North American Focus -- where R&D was completed by 1999) as well as being more readily geared towards making better small cars...

Yes, they had a bit more foresight. But they also got really lucky and the market for smaller cars benefits them a bit since they have a ready made fleet of smaller vehicles in Europe we haven't seen yet like the Euro Focus (which we'll have next year), the Fiesta, and Mondeo, which will be the next Fusion and competes with the base level Mercedes. Ten years ago however, their superior Euro cars flopped a bit here with models such as the Ford Contour that were smallish for this market.

[Big Train]

Keeps you comin' back for more...

Ugh not really...you just keep dishing more out.

Like the guy I work with? He's a bit of a drunk and doesn't give a fuck about much except for gambling and tenuously holding onto his job because it's the only thing keeping him from drinking himself to death.

He doesn't sit around bitching about taxes and Democrats on message boards though...

Makes me wonder why you sit around bitching about Republicans and defending Obama to no end. Perhaps you should consider drinking with him a lil more...

Ford was in the toilet with them and many thought they were done before GM. They saved themselves by generating a little buzz in Europe and stocking up on loan equity before the credit markets shit the bed. And skyrocketing gas prices actually helped because they had a really cheap small car with no overhead (the North American Focus -- where R&D was completed by 1999) as well as being more readily geared towards making better small cars...

Yes, they had a bit more foresight. But they also got really lucky and the market for smaller cars benefits them a bit since they have a ready made fleet of smaller vehicles in Europe we haven't seen yet like the Euro Focus (which we'll have next year), the Fiesta, and Modeo, which will be the next Fusion and competes with the base level Mercedes...

So again, in a nutshell, we agree Ford was better run.

[Nickdfresh]

So again, in a nutshell, we agree Ford was better run.

Better run, and got lucky.

And why don't you hang around my friend, Mr. Bigbucks. This life of leisure is surely draining for you...

And I don't bitch about Republicans per se, I bitch about policies I think are retarded. And I don't "defend" Obama as much as I point out the partisan nonsensical hypocrasy and stupidity of many of the attacks on him...

[Big Train]

Better run, and got lucky.

And why don't you hang around my friend, Mr. Bigbucks. This life of leisure is surely draining for you...

And I don't bitch about Republicans per se, I bitch about policies I think are retarded. And I don't "defend" Obama as much as I point out the partisan nonsensical hypocrasy and stupidity of many of the attacks on him...

He is your friend, you hang with him. I've got plenty of work to do. I like to keep the Front Line open on my second monitor for parts of the work day, good stress reliever. Some people read Fox Sports...

You do defend him, as when his retarded policies and nonsensical hypocrisy are not defensible, your support remains unwavering.

I would love to see you just once enlighten us with a Republican or conservative idea you actually thought was good. And I'm still waiting on your response to my question on Bush from yesterday.

[Nickdfresh]

He is your friend, you hang with him. I've got plenty of work to do. I like to keep the Front Line open on my second monitor for parts of the work day, good stress reliever. Some people read Fox Sports...

He's not a "good" friend, I work with him.

Super! Maybe we should hang out because I do the same...


You do defend him, as when his retarded policies and nonsensical hypocrisy are not defensible, your support remains unwavering.

Actually, that's what I mean. His "retarded policies" (or at least the ones I'm assuming you're talking about) are generally lauded by actual economists as beneficial overall, despite your best efforts to cherrypick from right wing alternative media and blogs to discredit them.

They are far from perfect, and leave much to be desired. But they're hardly "retarded." We'll leave that to Sarah Palin...


I would love to see you just once enlighten us with a Republican or conservative idea you actually thought was good. And I'm still waiting on your response to my question on Bush from yesterday.

It's tough when they haven't had any recently and pretend that pandering to religious extremists and authoritarian, reactionary politics once thought radical is "conservatism"...

BTW, I'm a big believer in "ideas" as Republican or Democrat as they themselves can never agree...

And what question was that?

And incidentally, I'm probably more personally conservative than many of the Republican porn-addicts who preach their morality to us, then cheat on their wives, are...

[Big Train]

Super! Maybe we should hang out because I do the same...

That would be an interesting beer summit. It's nothing personal, typing shit we disagree about all day might give the impression there is some hate here, but it's sport. I'm not aiming to change anyone.

Actually, that's what I mean. His "retarded policies" (or at least the ones I'm assuming you're talking about) are generally lauded by actual economists as beneficial overall, despite your best efforts to cherrypick from right wing alternative media and blogs to discredit them.

Excellent work there with the backbiting digs. You see the "actual economists" as infalliable, when for the most part it's more art than science. There are many different views of what happened in the Great Depression for example, from many "actual economists". Differeing opinions aren't 100% right or wrong (nor am I saying they are). I believe the conventional wisdom is generally wrong this time around. One of us is right and will come out ahead. I believe Obama's "actual economists" are puffing it up for me and not painting the whole picture, for sake of his numbers. Which is their job.

They are far from perfect, and leave much to be desired. But they're hardly "retarded." We'll leave that to Sarah Palin...

Or Joe Biden, resident White House Retard.

It's tough when they haven't had any recently and pretend that pandering to religious extremists and authoritarian, reactionary politics once thought radical is "conservatism"...

Indulge me. Give me a historical example.

BTW, I'm a big believer in "ideas" as Republican or Democrat as they themselves can never agree...

As am I, which is why I'm third party and not socially conservative.

And what question was that?

What issue (you said depends on the issue) would you have given Bush credit as "accomplishing something" that he put "emphasis and discussion" on.

And incidentally, I'm probably more personally conservative than many of the Republican porn-addicts who preach their morality to us, then cheat on their wives, are...

That's not a high bar, so I don't doubt it.

[Hardrock69]

Anyone who thinks the economy is going to get back to pre-recession levels in 7 months is a moron. And, relatively speaking, anyone who claims the stimulus package has not worked in seven months is also an intellectually challenged fruitcake.

And it is not like the stimulus package was the result of some drunk congressmen making it all up as they go.

I would say the we are looking at a time frame of at least several years for the economy to recover. That is certainly a more intelligent notion.

It just sucks that those people who are intelligent must listen to the hysterical rantings of a bunch of Retardlicans who are still irate that a n**ger has been elected President, and will seize any juvenile opportunity to scream and point fingers at "THAT BAD MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE", while being unable to come up with a plan of their own that could do the job more efficiently.

[Sensible Shoes]

I'm collecting unemployment right now. Doesn't feel good, but I'm certainly grateful it's there. Since finding something else is probably going to require going back to school, I'm also very grateful they extended things for 20 weeks. Do I thank Obama for this? Congress. Well yes. But bigger thanks go to the taxpayers, and even to myself for paying into it for 30 years.

[Big Train]

Yes, this is the most effecient way.

Count RAISES as "portions of jobs saved" and overstate wildly the amount of jobs "saved" overall.


Many California jobs 'saved' by stimulus funds weren't in jeopardy
preese@sacbee.com
Published Friday, Nov. 06, 2009

Many California jobs 'saved' by stimulus funds weren't in jeopardy - Sacramento News - Local and Breaking Sacramento News | Sacramento Bee (http://www.sacbee.com/topstories/v-print/story/2309303.html)

Up to one-fourth of the 110,000 jobs reported as saved by federal stimulus money in California probably never were in danger, a Bee review has found.

California State University officials reported late last week that they saved more jobs with stimulus money than the number of jobs saved in Texas – and in 44 other states.

In a required state report to the federal government, the university system said the $268.5 million it received in stimulus funding through October allowed it to retain 26,156 employees.

That total represents more than half of CSU's statewide work force. However, university officials confirmed Thursday that half their workers were not going to be laid off without the stimulus dollars.

"This is not really a real number of people," CSU spokeswoman Clara Potes-Fellow said. "It's like a budget number."

That certainly was not the way Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger described it at a news event with Vice President Joe Biden late last week, where he focused on people, not budgets.

"Anyone that criticizes the stimulus money should talk to those 100,000 people that have retained their jobs or gotten jobs because of the stimulus money, especially the 62,000 teachers that have kept their jobs or gotten jobs," Schwarzenegger said.

When asked about CSU's numbers on Wednesday, Camille Anderson, a spokeswoman for the California Recovery Task Force, said it was up to the university to report its numbers accurately.

"CSU assured the California Recovery Task Force that they self-reported in strict adherence with federal reporting requirements," Anderson said.

Multiple cases of inflated and underreported job tallies have surfaced since the federal government released detailed stimulus reports last week, said Craig Jennings, a senior policy analyst at OMB Watch, a Washington, D.C.-based nonprofit group that tracks federal spending.

"I don't think recipients know what they are supposed to put down," Jennings said, referring to guidelines for estimating the number of jobs retained.

Nonetheless, Jennings said his review so far indicates most employers have reported job creation numbers that appear realistic.

Statewide, numbers reported by the Governor's Office show roughly one job in California created for every $75,000 in stimulus funding received through Oct. 30 – a sum that certainly sounds realistic, especially when benefits are considered.

But broken down by projects and programs, that averaging gets complicated.

Many giant projects, most of them dealing with transportation, have received tens of millions of dollars but reported creating or retaining few jobs because work has not yet begun.

On the flip side, about 500 California employers receiving stimulus funds reported creating work for less than $15,000 per job. California State University is the largest example of this – it spent about $10,000 per job. In another example, the state Employment Development Department reported creating the equivalent of about 12,000 jobs for around $7,000 apiece.

Most of those EDD jobs were temporary and went to youths who would otherwise have had trouble finding employment, said Liz Clingman, deputy division chief in the EDD's work force services division.

By comparison, the University of California system received $717 million in stimulus funding – nearly three times the amount given to the CSU system – but reported only about 8,400 jobs saved, a cost of $85,000 per job.

In the case of the CSU system, spokeswoman Potes-Fellow said university officials followed federal reporting guidelines in calculating the numbers.

They determined that CSU's stimulus funds equaled the pay of roughly 26,000 full-time employees for the two months following the allocation, May and June, and reported that as the number of jobs saved, Potes-Fellow said.

Given CSU's large payroll, the system would need to receive another $1 billion or more to keep funding those jobs for an entire year. But about half of the money California expects to receive under the State Fiscal Stabilization Fund – the stimulus dollars funding the university jobs – already has been spent.

CSU's accounting method, however, seems to violate at least the spirit of written guidance from the federal government.

In a June letter to all funding recipients, White House Budget Director Peter Orszag said, "A job retained is an existing position that would not have been continued to be filled were it not for Recovery Act funding."

When asked about CSU's contention that half its work force was not at risk without stimulus funding, a U.S. Department of Education official suggested that CSU might be downplaying the magnitude of its problems.

"If the recipient claims that they wouldn't have lost the jobs if they didn't have stimulus money to pay for them, it begs the question of where they would have found the funds to keep the jobs," said Sandra Abrevaya, the Education Department spokeswoman.

Asked how many jobs actually would have been lost at CSU campuses without the stimulus infusion, Potes-Fellow said she did not know, though she said it would have been significant.

[hideyoursheep]

This thread is almost as useful as the Republican Health Care plan.

Fell free to relieve some more "stress", BT.

:lmao:

:popc1:

[hideyoursheep]

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[Big Train]

Feel free to add something of substance Sheep. In any thread...at any time.

[hideyoursheep]

After you, sir.

[hideyoursheep]

Upper Class. Material possessions in excess of 1 mil. A nice house, bank accounts and you are there. Maybe you don't know anyone with those things..

WTF is this supposed to mean?

Once again, you're being asked to explain your vague, meaningless posts to nowhere, Big Thome.

Jesus...:019: