Afghan War to Expand, but with "Endgame"

[Nickdfresh]

Administration outlines Afghan war endgame
Official: U.S. troops will start leaving region 'well before' end of first term
NBC News and news services
updated 1:35 p.m. ET, Tues., Dec . 1, 2009

WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama plans to send 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan over six months, an accelerated timetable — with an endgame built in — that would have the first Marines there as early as Christmas, a senior administration official told The Associated Press.

U.S. troops are expected to start leaving the region "well before" the end of Obama's first term, the AP reported Tuesday. A senior government official told NBC contributor Col. Jack Jacobs that the president believes that a transition from American-led combat to Afghan leadership of the effort will begin in July 2011.

With the full complement of new troops expected to be in Afghanistan by next summer, the heightened pace of Obama's military deployment in the 8-year-old war appears to mimic the 2007 troop surge in Iraq, a 20,000-strong force addition under former President George W. Bush. Similar in strategy to that mission, Obama's Afghan surge aims to reverse gains by Taliban insurgents and to secure population centers in the volatile south and east parts of the country.

In a prime-time speech to the nation Tuesday night from West Point that ends a 92-day review, Obama will seek to help sell his much bigger, costlier war plan by tying the escalation to an exit strategy, said the official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

By laying out a rough timeframe and some dates for when the main U.S. military mission would end, as well as emphasizing stepped-up training for Afghan forces, the president was acknowledging the increasingly divided public opinion over continued American participation in the stalemated war.

"We want to — as quickly as possible — transition the security of the Afghan people over to those national security forces in Afghanistan," White House press secretary Robert Gibbs told ABC's "Good Morning America." "This can't be nation-building. It can't be an open-ended forever commitment."

With U.S. casualties in Afghanistan sharply increasing and little sign of progress, the war Obama once liked to call one "of necessity," not choice, has grown less popular with the public and within his own Democratic party. In recent days, leading Democrats have talked of setting tough conditions on deeper U.S. involvement, or even staging outright opposition.

The displeasure on both sides of the aisle was likely to be on display when congressional hearings on Obama's strategy get under way later in the week on Capitol Hill.

In his speech and in meetings overseas in the coming days, Obama also will ask NATO allies to contribute more — between 5,000 and 10,000 new troops — to the separate international force in Afghanistan, diplomats said.

One official from a European nation said the troop figure was included in an official NATO document compiled on the basis of information received from Washington ahead of Obama's announcement. The NATO force in Afghanistan now stands at around 40,000 troops.

The 30,000 new U.S. troops will bring the total in Afghanistan to more than 100,000 U.S. forces by next summer. New infusions of U.S. Marines will begin moving into Afghanistan almost as soon as Obama announces a redrawn battle strategy.

The president's long-awaited troop increase had been envisioned to take place over a year, or even more, because force deployments in Iraq and elsewhere make it logistically difficult, if not impossible, to go faster. But Obama directed his military planners to make the changes necessary to hasten the Afghanistan additions, said the official, who declined to be publicly identified because the formal announcement of details was still pending.

Officials were not specific on the withdrawal date that Obama has in mind nor the changes the military will be required to make to get the troop deployments into Afghanistan on the president's new, speedier timeline.

Military officials said at least one group of Marines is expected to deploy within two or three weeks of Obama's announcement, and would be in Afghanistan by Christmas. This initial infusion is a recognition by the administration that something tangible needs to happen quickly, military officials said.

The new Marines would provide badly needed reinforcements to those fighting against Taliban gains in the southern Helmand province. They also could lend reassurance to both Afghans and a war-weary U.S. public.

Obama's announcement comes near the end of a year in which the war has worsened despite the president's infusion of 21,000 forces earlier this year. He began rolling out his decision Sunday night, informing key administration officials, military advisers and foreign allies in a series of private meetings and phone calls that stretched into Monday.

Previewing a narrative the president is likely to stress, Gibbs told ABC that the number of fresh troops don't tell the whole story. Obama will emphasize that Afghan security forces need more time, more schooling and more U.S. combat backup to be up to the job on their own.

"We're going to accelerate going after al-Qaida and its extremist allies," Gibbs said. "We'll accelerate the training of an Afghan national security force, a police and an army."

In Kabul, Lt. Gen. William B. Caldwell, the new head of a U.S.-NATO command responsible for training and developing Afghan soldiers and police, said Tuesday that although the groundwork is being laid to expand the Afghan National Army beyond the current target of 134,000 troops, to be reached by Oct. 31, 2010, no fixed higher target is set.

There is a notional goal of eventually fielding 240,000 soldiers and 160,000 police, but Caldwell said that could change.

"Although that is a goal and where we think it could eventually go to, it's not a hard, firm, fixed number," he said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.

He indicated that one reason for avoiding a hard-and-fast commitment to those higher numbers is the expected cost. So his orders are to reach the targets of 134,000 soldiers and 96,800 police by next October. He intends to hold annual reviews, beginning next spring or early summer, to determine whether the notional higher targets of 240,000 soldiers and 160,000 police — for a combined total of 400,000 by 2013 — are still the right goals for Afghanistan.

"If you grow it up to 400,000 — if you did grow all the way to that number, and if it was required to help bring greater security to this country — then of course you have to sustain it at that level, too, in terms of the cost of maintaining a force that size," he said. Nearly all the cost of building Afghan forces has been borne by the U.S. and other countries thus far.

Obama also will make tougher demands on the governments of Pakistan and, especially, Afghanistan.

The Afghan government said Tuesday that President Hamid Karzai and Obama had an hourlong video conference. Obama was also going to speak with Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari.

In Afghanistan, rampant government corruption and inefficiency have made U.S. success much harder. Obama was expected to place tough conditions on Karzai's government.

Obama was spending much of Monday and Tuesday on the phone, outlining his plan — minus many specifics — for the leaders of France, Britain, Germany, Russia, China, India, Denmark, Poland and others. He also met in person at the White House with Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.

A briefing for dozens of key lawmakers was planned for Tuesday afternoon, just before Obama was set to leave the White House for the speech against a military backdrop.

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

GoogleAP (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34218604/ns/politics-white_house/)

[Nickdfresh]

The endgame should be now...

[FORD]

Obama should have been the new FDR.....started out as the new Clinton....and is about to morph into the new LBJ. :(

[kwame k]

Good analogy, FORD......I'm afraid you're right:(

[lesfunk]

I always thought Obama would be a 1 term President. (If he doesn't appoint himself Dictatator first).
Now I'm wondering If he'll make it to be a 1/2 term President before he's run out of town on a rail.
He's proving himself to be a big nothing, Angering, and alienating both the right, the left, and the moderates.
That's what we get when we elect a President with no core values , Just another career politician with different colored skin (which is the big reason he was elected in the first place).

[FORD]

I always thought Obama would be a 1 term President. (If he doesn't appoint himself Dictatator first).
Now I'm wondering If he'll make it to be a 1/2 term President before he's run out of town on a rail.
He's proving himself to be a big nothing, Angering, and alienating both the right, the left, and the moderates.
That's what we get when we elect a President with no core values , Just another career politician with different colored skin (which is the big reason he was elected in the first place).

Sad to say, he was still the best of the available choices. Including the priamries (Hillary would have already obliterated Iran by now)

Candidate Obama sounded great. Senate candidate Obama sounded even better back in 2002. He opposed dumb wars and wanted single payer health care.

[lesfunk]

Obama should have been the new FDR..... He may still yet cuntsidering that FDR didn't end the Depression, WWII did. He merely extended the depression.
started out as the new Clinton.... like or dislike Bill Clinton, at least he wasn't on a mission to Puposefuly destroy his country
and is about to morph into the new LBJ. :(
LBJ was a crooked twat . The only thing he should be remembered for was Murdering JFK.

[FORD]

LBJ was a crooked twat . The only thing he should be remembered for was Murdering JFK.

No, that was the BCE. :(

[lesfunk]

Sad to say, he was still the best of the available choices. Including the priamries (Hillary would have already obliterated Iran by now)

Candidate Obama sounded great. Senate candidate Obama sounded even better back in 2002. He opposed dumb wars and wanted single payer health care.That's the trouble with candidates. They almost always sound great.
No One gets to be Pres. without being bought and paid for. Sorry for the cynicism. That's just how I feel.

[lesfunk]

No, that was the BCE. :(

LBJ.... BCE.... KKK... AMA... DNC... Same thing...:(

[Seshmeister]

With the full complement of new troops expected to be in Afghanistan by next summer, the heightened pace of Obama's military deployment in the 8-year-old war appears to mimic the 2007 troop surge in Iraq,

Operation Enduring Bribes.

You take money from hard working American taxpayers and give it to murderous militia men to bribe them not to shoot your troops and call it a surge. At the same time you employ a bunch of mercenaries for $100k a year and let them lay waste to the place. This minimises the US troop casualties because it's then contractors that get killed. Of course all the mercenaries are ex US military that you trained but now have to pay much much more money to be less disciplined.

Then after a while and another trillion spent you pretend it's a victory for the politicians and get the fuck out and let them get back to raping their women and killing each other.

It's just a very expensive way to create another generation of people who hate you.

[kwame k]

Call me an Obama apologist but the guy hasn't been in office a year yet. I deplore some of the decisions he has made and I am totally pissed off at the Demo's for squandering their majority. Some of Obama's appointments have been suspect at best and although he did state he was going to increase troops in the "Afghan Conflict", and I do respect his cautioned approach to the conflict.......Get all your facts together and by all means don't make a decision just to look like you're doing something but the guy's putting too much on his plate.

As far as troop increase, it's not too much of a surprise and another type of "Surge" may actually shorten the time we need to be there. When Dubya focused all our attention on Iraq he lost all the headway we made and now it's almost like starting over again. 8 years into this conflict and there's no foreseeable end in sight......no matter what their "End Game" is and how much the experts predict an end, there's no way of knowing how this will play out....look at the history of Afghanistan, can't remember who said it but, Afghanistan is the place where Super Powers go to get a lesson in humility. We went into Iraq and Afghanistan thinking we would be greeted as liberators and by going in under that premise we overlooked the important facts like their cultures.

I'm all for an overhaul of Health Care and I'm all for getting us out of Afghanistan with a stable government in place but at some time you have to focus on one thing. I feel he's trying to fix everything right now. Our government doesn't work that way and given the massive scope of our economy some things will take years to fix. We don't like those type of answers but that is the truth. The Microwave Mentality that everything will be fixed in months doesn't play out in reality.

[Kristy]

Just another career politician with different colored skin (which is the big reason he was elected in the first place).

For fuck's sake, find a new card to play.

[LoungeMachine]

For fuck's sake, find a new card to play.

He will....

Just as soon as Rush or Hannity tells him what it is....

:gulp:

[lesfunk]

right.... Limbaugh is a Billionaire Bush Butt buddy and I'm cuntvinced that Hannity has less education than a 5th grader. I didn't even know Glen Beck existed until I read his name in a FORD post.
You guys give me much too much credit. I'm not a pundit or a follower of pundits. I simply have my own opinion and every once and a while I voice it.
I don't expect Lounge, Ford, Kristy, or Nick to agree with me.
If my opinion sounds like some radio guy you hate so be it.
I mean, I don't accuse FORD of parroting the Mike Malloy radio Guy.(even though I secretly suspect he often does exactly that.
I don't like Obama and I doubt I ever will. I'm not against giving him props if I feel he deserves it.

[FORD]

Nah, I agree with what Mike Malloy says about 99% of the time. But I had all those views before I ever heard his show.

The 1 percent? He calls Chimpy's family the Bush Crime Family rather than the Bush Criminal Empire. But that's cool.

[GO-SPURS-GO]

For fuck's sake, find a new card to play.

I'm not saying that was the "big" reason he was elected, but I know several Mexican people who NEVER voted before, but voted for him just because he is African-American. They didn't want another "pinche gringo" in the White house. :biggrin:

[sadaist]

Nah, I agree with what Mike Malloy says about 99% of the time. But I had all those views before I ever heard his show.

.


So why is that different if someone agrees with 99% of what Rush might say? You accuse them of parroting, not having a brain of their own, and just waiting for Rush to tell them what to think next.

[sadaist]

For fuck's sake, find a new card to play.


Why? It is one reason why Obama got many of his votes. I bet McCain got votes based simply because he wasn't the black guy. Or was a POW. I'm sure Bush got votes simply because he was from TX. Hillary received votes simply because she is a woman. Being black isn't the only reason Obama was elected, but it did play a part in it.

[Nitro Express]

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MouUJNG8f2k&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MouUJNG8f2k&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

This guy saw right through Obama from the start.

[FORD]

So why is that different if someone agrees with 99% of what Rush might say? You accuse them of parroting, not having a brain of their own, and just waiting for Rush to tell them what to think next.

Well, maybe because most of what Mush says is psychotic oxycontin fueled babble, and I would hope that someone who's NOT a paranoid drug addled freak wouldn't come up with that crap on their own. :biggrin:

[Nitro Express]

Obama got lot's of people out to vote for him that normally don't vote because he's black. Also, that made him a huge celebrity. Being young, having a good looking wife, and cute kids didn't hurt either. Also, the country was fed up with the Republicans. They had the chance to fix things and only made them worse because they did the Rockefeller family's bidding instead of the American people's.

[Nitro Express]

The only campaign promise Obama is keeping is the nationalized healthcare but if you look at what he's pushing, it gives more power to big pharma and the insurance companies. Now they can fine you and imprison you for not buying their products. That's fascism and not socialism. But what do you expect from a federal government ran by Goldman Sachs?

[Nitro Express]

I always thought Obama would be a 1 term President. (If he doesn't appoint himself Dictatator first).
Now I'm wondering If he'll make it to be a 1/2 term President before he's run out of town on a rail.
He's proving himself to be a big nothing, Angering, and alienating both the right, the left, and the moderates.
That's what we get when we elect a President with no core values , Just another career politician with different colored skin (which is the big reason he was elected in the first place).

I think there is a huge lesson to learn from Bush and Obama. Don't vote for a puppet of the elite. We desperately need a real president that works for the people and not the banks and corporations. We have lost our economy and our dollar is going down. Those can be brought back in time but if we lose our freedom, they have us. We will be impovershed slaves with no hope of a better life. We are about to be crushed by the banking/corporate elites and all the nice things we enjoyed in the past will be taken away. If we can take our country back politically, we have a shot at restoring what was taken.

[Nitro Express]

The war on terror is a joke. Our borders are wide open. Look at the Fort Hood shooting. Heck. Give me some money and I could take down the whole US power grid and do it in a way that would take a long-time to repair. I would fry the big transformers at key substations and also destroy the factories that make and repair the transformers.

No electricity would cause more damage than bombs. Wall Street, the banks, commerce, everything would come to a complete stop and it would be so easy to do. Why hasn't it happened yet? Terrorism isn't as big of a problem as the government would like us to believe it is.

[Nitro Express]

Hell. Uninvited guests can stroll right into the white house state dinner and shake the president's hand. That tell's you something about the so called great security.

[sadaist]

Well, maybe because most of what Mush says is psychotic oxycontin fueled babble, and I would hope that someone who's NOT a paranoid drug addled freak wouldn't come up with that crap on their own. :biggrin:


Ah, and now you see how the other side feels about Malloy.

I'm gonna suggest again you switch avatars. He just looks like the old man in Poltergeist in your current one, and I know there are better pics of him that don't have him appear creepy. Here's a better one.


http://profile.ak.facebook.com/object3/1209/12/l23703222271_6076.jpg

[Kristy]

He just looks like the old man in Poltergeist in your current one...

:lmao:

He's right you know, Ford.

[FORD]

Yeah, all right already...... I changed it. :biggrin:

[hideyoursheep]

He has a face for radio...that Mike Malloy.





Pancho Villa was never captured.

Geronimo was never captured. [he surrendered]

Bin Laden will never be captured.

I don't like it, but it's true. We're repeating history...

[Seshmeister]

If he was still alive I don't see what difference killing or even capturing him would make.

He's only a boogey man for Americans, he doesn't run Islamic terrorism, noone does.

[jacksmar]

"I agree with what Mike Malloy says about 99% of the time."

There it is!!!!!!! Mike Malloy: Commie Lib for Dummies.
Tinfoil theories and no facts. Just when you suspect someone is a wandering chanting puffin, FORD reveals his bleat source.

Bush free Friday? Can't do it. Didn't that wimp get fired for being BORING!!

President Bend Over caught his muslim brother Osama? No? Thought there wasn't anything Bend Over couldn't do. Why are we discussing this? President Bend Over said this was the war he would shine the light on over 6 years ago.

You guys are too easily duped.:(

[Nickdfresh]

I always thought Obama would be a 1 term President. (If he doesn't appoint himself Dictatator first).
Now I'm wondering If he'll make it to be a 1/2 term President before he's run out of town on a rail.
He's proving himself to be a big nothing, Angering, and alienating both the right, the left, and the moderates.
That's what we get when we elect a President with no core values , Just another career politician with different colored skin (which is the big reason he was elected in the first place).

So. Do you support the Afghan mission or are you against it? I'm not sure WTF a "Dictatator" is? Someone who can write shit down? :)

Second, I do not agree with this position and think we should largely get out. But to say he has "no core values" is kind of silly shit based on this or any other issue.

Thirdly, he did not create this clusterfuck, he inherited from the assclowns that Jacksoff voted for.

[Nickdfresh]

"I agree with what Mike Malloy says about 99% of the time."

There it is!!!!!!! Mike Malloy: Commie Lib for Dummies.
Tinfoil theories and no facts. Just when you suspect someone is a wandering chanting puffin, FORD reveals his bleat source.

Bush free Friday? Can't do it. Didn't that wimp get fired for being BORING!!

President Bend Over caught his muslim brother Osama? No? Thought there wasn't anything Bend Over couldn't do. Why are we discussing this? President Bend Over said this was the war he would shine the light on over 6 years ago.

You guys are too easily duped.:(

Dude, did you graduate high school yet? Seriously, you shtick is painfully stupid and and so 2008 at this point...

If you're asking "why we are discussing this," then you're in the wrong forum, moron and need to GTFO...

[ZahZoo]

I like the fact that we're giving the military the requested resources to perform their objectives and setting some time-tables to move out of this thing...

But I am wondering now in 8 years... are we really fighting a war or just "nation building"? I guess some of both.

I'd really like to see much more international pressure on the Afgan government to clean up and take charge of their own back yard. Enough with the fancy hats crap... they need to take charge now not 18 months from now.

[Hardrock69]

Personally, I am in favor of sending 100,000 additional troops, forming a line of death to start at one end of Assramistan, then walk towards the other end, killing anything that even looks at them funny. Oh, and post soldiers along the borders at the other end, so the sobbing, frightened little children (otherwise known as Taliban or Al-Quaeda) have nowhere to hide, and get squashed like the bugs they are.

Seriously....ONLY 30,000 additional troops? Sounds like we are going to be in this quagmire a lot longer than 2-3 more years.

[Nickdfresh]

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-december-1-2009/thomas-friedman'>Thomas Friedman</a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:257654' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes'>Daily Show<br/> Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com'>Political Humor</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/videos/tag/health'>Health Care Crisis</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

Yeah, saw the Daily Show the other night, so I'm posting a lot of vids...

[lesfunk]

So. Do you support the Afghan mission or are you against it? I'm not sure WTF a "Dictatator" is? Someone who can write shit down? :)

Second, I do not agree with this position and think we should largely get out. But to say he has "no core values" is kind of silly shit based on this or any other issue.

Thirdly, he did not create this clusterfuck, he inherited from the assclowns that Jacksoff voted for.

I think we should get the fuck out of the land of the flying carpets.
I believe he is extending this clusterfuck.

[FORD]

I like the fact that we're giving the military the requested resources to perform their objectives and setting some time-tables to move out of this thing...

But I am wondering now in 8 years... are we really fighting a war or just "nation building"? I guess some of both.



More like "pipeline building"......

http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/winterpatriotdotcom/bg2139_map1.gif

[Nitro Express]

If he was still alive I don't see what difference killing or even capturing him would make.

He's only a boogey man for Americans, he doesn't run Islamic terrorism, noone does.

He was the excuse to get us over into the oil producing countries so we could control those and blackmail the rest of the world.

I will use an example. The Chinese called the Federal Reserve chairman and Treasury secretary to Bejing. The Chinese told them the US dollars we were giving them were worse than opium because at least the opium gave them pleasure during the opium wars. The Chinese told us to clean up our act and stop starting wars and meddling in other nations or they would start dumping their dollars and crash our economy. Then OPEC told China if they dump the dollar they won't get any oil.

So geopolitically the US is out to control the world's oil so they can force the world to take our worthless dollars. This is what it's all about and we have no plans on leaving the middle east anytime soon. If people think Obama is going to pull us out of there. Ha! ha! ha! Nothing is going to change with him. Change is all you will have in your pocket when he gets done with us.

[Little Texan]

Have we learned nothing from what happened to the USSR from their 80's occupation of Afghanistan? The Soviets were there for 10 years, kept sending troops, kept coming up with different battle plans and strategies, and kept spending billions of dollars only to be sent home with their tails between their legs. We all know what happened after this...the Soviet Union went bankrupt, then collapsed a few years later. History is repeating itself all over again.

[ZahZoo]

Has anyone in the history of mankind ever won a war in that shithole?

[FORD]

Has anyone in the history of mankind ever won a war in that shithole?

Nope. It's called the "Graveyard of Empires" for a reason.

The Soviet Union being the most recent example that we all remember. The Brits couldn't do it either, and that's when the sun began to set on the British Empire. Alexander the Great failed. So did Genghis Khan.

Obviously none of the above were military amateurs, but rather the greatest war machines of the time. And they all lost.

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. :(

[standin]

You got to ask the question, why?
What is it about the place?

[Kristy]

What is it about the place?

It may be a backwards gawd-forsaken shithole but the place has a LOT of strategic value not just for pipelines but clandestine military bases, and covert CIA-funded operations. Problem is, the Taliban have all the quality real-estate for such plans to take shape.

[Nickdfresh]

Has anyone in the history of mankind ever won a war in that shithole?

I think a British general once said (during their colonial occupation of greater India) something to the affect that, 'to have an army large enough to control all of Afghanistan, it would have to starve'...

He meant that the terrain is so horrendously shitty, that it's extremely difficult to maintain a supply line...

[standin]

Just because it has some mountains and caves? Makes it unmanagable....

I guess even after eons, the best place to fortify is still a mountain.

Note..
Neither here nor there that we should or should not be there...

Guess the Ozarks would be the best place in the US.

[jacksmar]

Did we win yet? Did President Bend H Over make it so?
30,000 troops ready to go and pull out. Good plan President Bend H Over.

I like the idea of killing everything in your path. Means when you get about a 1/4 of the way forward the other 3/4 pony up the bad guys. Should have been done in Fallujah.

By the way, our guys will kick the muslim shit out of these Taliban sunnis and al-Qaida baby raping faggots. IF it truly "is the duty of all Muslims to kill US citizens, civilian or military and their allies everywhere" then get ready to take a chance with the US Military. Pray to your anal cunt Allah it's a Barrett 99A1. You won't know what hit you.

[Nickdfresh]

Did we win yet? Did President Bend H Over make it so?
30,000 troops ready to go and pull out. Good plan President Bend H Over.

I like the idea of killing everything in your path. Means when you get about a 1/4 of the way forward the other 3/4 pony up the bad guys. Should have been done in Fallujah.

By the way, our guys will kick the muslim shit out of these Taliban sunnis and al-Qaida baby raping faggots. IF it truly "is the duty of all Muslims to kill US citizens, civilian or military and their allies everywhere" then get ready to take a chance with the US Military. Pray to your anal cunt Allah it's a Barrett 99A1. You won't know what hit you.

Weren't you the guy asking me advice on how to avoid being called back from the IRR a few years back? (Internet toughguy, douchebag)

[FORD]

Yeah, that shit's helpful, given recent events around here :rolleyes:

[jacksmar]

Weren't you the guy asking me advice on how to avoid being called back from the IRR a few years back? (Internet toughguy, douchebag)

I'm also the guy that didn't take your advice, Nick.
Aren't you that teacher that was fired? What was that about?

I was about to send you private message thinking you might get the cheer for our guys but it doesn't matter. I went to sign back up for the service and they told me I was too fucking old. They recommended a defense contractor and I was hired but have since left. Caught up?

[chefcraig]

Yeah, that shit's helpful, given recent events around here :rolleyes:

I wouldn't be altogether concerned. Remember, they seemed to take issue with a cartoon, rather than the content found in this forum.

[jacksmar]

I wouldn't be altogether concerned. Remember, they seemed to take issue with a cartoon, rather than the content found in this forum.

What are you guys talking about?

[FORD]

Ask GAyR.

[jacksmar]

Did GAR post a picture?

[jhale667]

Did GAyR post a picture?

Slow, bigoted and stupid is no way to go through life, Jerksmear.

[Nickdfresh]

I'm also the guy that didn't take your advice, Nick.

You mean you didn't 'fuck off?' Yeah, I'm sure you ran right down to the recruiting station. BTW, if you were too "old," what were you worried about to begin with? You're either completely full of shit or are dumb as a fuckstump...


Aren't you that teacher that was fired? What was that about?

Nope. I was a sub, then a short termer "long term sub" and then a sub that didn't really want to be permanent. Mainly because the American educational system spawns the inbred, chitin-eaters that go through life spouting the same ignorant cliches in the internetz such as yourself. I can't teach anything below college now and have no inclinations left of working for a community one as I can make a lot more money doing other stuff...


I was about to send you private message thinking you might get the cheer for our guys but it doesn't matter. I went to sign back up for the service and they told me I was too fucking old. They recommended a defense contractor and I was hired but have since left. Caught up?

Are you sure your it wasn't that your IQ was too low?

[jacksmar]

WTF?
Jhale, I didn’t realize you wanted in the conversation mr helper. Maybe you can explain. Or are you too busy not playing in a band? One of those guys that just can’t seem to find the right guys. And if you do, you probably want to change the setlist.

Nick,
Just too good for the public school system doesn’t cut it anymore. That shit ended in the 70’s. That’s an old hippie excuse for copping out, man. If the system you were “subbing” for is part of the problem why didn’t you just take yourself to Oxford, man? Too good for Cecil too, man? Those blood diamonds weighing too heavy?

[Nickdfresh]

WTF?
Jhale, I didn’t realize you wanted in the conversation mr helper. Maybe you can explain. Or are you too busy not playing in a band? One of those guys that just can’t seem to find the right guys. And if you do, you probably want to change the setlist.

Nick,
Just too good for the public school system doesn’t cut it anymore. That shit ended in the 70’s. That’s an old hippie excuse for copping out, man. If the system you were “subbing” for is part of the problem why didn’t you just take yourself to Oxford, man? Too good for Cecil too, man? Those blood diamonds weighing too heavy?

Suffice to say that I wasn't a "hippie," far from it. I was actually pretty strict when I wasn't busy being apathetic like that guy in The Hangover. Now why don't you run along to make up some more troll shit about racing and being gayer than Paul Stanley..

[jacksmar]

I bought an old race car chassis bothers you? It was the only one I could afford.
I've always had a "thing" for Donna Dixon and Samantha Fox so thanks.

The Hangover? Now that's funny!!!

[hideyoursheep]

Just thinking out loud...

It won't do any good to build a pipeline if they keep blowing the fuck out of it.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Yet another thread hijacking into pissing contests, you see what Sarge is referring to ya fellas, don't ya ??

To get back on topic....

My problem with the whole Afghanistan operation, since 2003 anyway, is that the primary focus has been shifted....

It's no longer about finding Bin Laden and Omar, it's shifted to the Taliban and nation building....

I know the Taliban is/was sheltering Bin Laden, so it made sense to go after them initially.... But even if after this latest deployment, where they're sure to wipe more of them out, does anyone really think that as soon as the pullout is complete, they'll eventually take over once again ?? And if the answer to that is yes, why delay the inevitable at the massive cost of lives and money ??

I know dealing with Pakistan on military matters is a walking minefield, but if Obama came out and said we're going to deploy 30,000 more troops, and their SOLE focus was to go in the region where Bin Laden and Omar are most likely hiding, then I'd have no problem at all, much like I had no problem with the initial deployment that Dubya ordered (not to be confused with Iraq, of course)....

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Yet another thread hijacking into pissing contests, you see what Sarge is referring to ya fellas, don't ya ??

To get back on topic....

My problem with the whole Afghanistan operation, since 2003 anyway, is that the primary focus has been shifted....

It's no longer about finding Bin Laden and Omar, it's shifted to the Taliban and nation building....

I know the Taliban is/was sheltering Bin Laden, so it made sense to go after them initially.... But even if after this latest deployment, where they're sure to wipe more of them out, does anyone really think that as soon as the pullout is complete, they'll eventually take over once again ?? And if the answer to that is yes, why delay the inevitable at the massive cost of lives and money ??

I know dealing with Pakistan on military matters is a walking minefield, but if Obama came out and said we're going to deploy 30,000 more troops, and their SOLE focus was to go in the region where Bin Laden and Omar are most likely hiding, then I'd have no problem at all, much like I had no problem with the initial deployment that Dubya ordered (not to be confused with Iraq, of course)....

It does seems like an absolute waste of taxpayer money and troop lives. In boxing they call it telegraphing. Why Obama would broadcast to the world that he intends to pull out in 18 months after announcing the deployment of 30 thousand troops is just absurd. Al Qaeda has no problem stepping out of the picture for 18 months and waiting out this latest surge. This group is very patient and methodical. It must be frustrating to be a soldier in today's U.S. military. My heart goes out to them.

[Dr. Love]

Yet another thread hijacking into pissing contests, you see what Sarge is referring to ya fellas, don't ya ??

Are you insinuating that in the Front Line we don't debate ideas, but rather just piss on each other personally?

No doubt we all have the intellectual fortitude to debate each other here on the policy and do so all the time, just not in any of the threads I read or post in.

I dunno, maybe it's too hard to keep it to the ideas/too easy to call someone a retard.

Retard. ;)

[jhale667]

Nah, it's just to easy (and accurate) to call Jerksmear a retard when he makes the "Obama's muslim brother" comments and merely regurgitates whatever Fixed Noise told him that morning on "Fucked and Friends"...:rolleyes:

I'm with those who've said they'd be more into the idea if we were specifically going after Bin Laden and his Taliban helpers, but that unfortunately doesn't seem to be the case.

[FORD]

Well, that's because Bin Laden is dead. Hard to go after him, unless Satan lets you know where the portal to Hell is located.

There's three things in play here, and they all begin with the letter P

Pipelines
Poppies
Pakistani nukes

The first two are not worth one more drop of American blood. The third needs a much better approach (i.e. a government in Pakistan that's not a client state of the CIA/BCE)

[jhale667]

Well, that's because Bin Laden is dead. Hard to go after him, unless Satan lets you know where the portal to Hell is located.

There's three things in play here, and they all begin with the letter P

Pipelines
Poppies
Pakistani nukes

The first two are not worth one more drop of American blood. The third needs a much better approach (i.e. a government in Pakistan that's not a client state of the CIA/BCE)

Exactly.

[FORD]

All Too Familiar on Afghanistan
posted by Laura Flanders on 12/03/2009 @ 09:50am


The President talked about America's enduring values again at West Point Tuesday night, and then he laid them out, a whole lot of values one can only wish would endure a little less.

The President began his address to the nation on Afghanistan in the traditional style of his predecessor, setting the tone for troop deployments by recalling 9-11 and terror and fright. Then came the retelling of the traditional Al Qaeda story, the one that omits any mention of Saudi Arabia or Israeli occupation or post-Gulf War US bases -- in fact any mention of politics.

Sadly, our new president seemed to share George W. Bush's appreciation for the value of a simple villain and not asking questions. So much for those who seek a new narrative, one that might include the debate that exists around the world about the merits and real demerits of war as a response to a criminal terrorist act.

Having declared legitimacy, the president then claimed responsibility, a special American responsibility and authority to invade, police, and act in ways that other countries may not.

Amazingly, the nation's first Black president retold the simplest national founding story: "Our union was founded in resistance to oppression." (For his wife's ancestors it was not.) And he made the classic claim of innocence "We do not seek to occupy other nations. We will not claim another nation's resources." (The US has a long history, of course, of helping our corporations do just that, from Chevron to United Fruit.)

As tradition requires, Obama claimed progress is being made. Maybe so, but it'd be more convincing in Afghanistan were it not for all those US-backed Afghan warlords gearing up to fight each other with US weapons, fueled by a heroin trade that the CIA stands accused of letting rip. Obama's words were too familiar -- so too his silences.

Finally and worst, for those who'd thought they'd voted for the death of the Bush Doctrine. Sorry. Bush/Cheney live on in the new president's embrace of the idea that the US has a right, not only to respond to attacks, but also to deploy men and women in anticipation of them.

"New attacks are being plotted as I speak," said Obama.

Do I hear an echo? So much for those who had the audacity to hope.

Laura Flanders is the host of GRITtv which broadcasts weekdays on satellite TV (Dish Network Ch. 9415 Free Speech TV) on cable, and online at GRITtv.org and TheNation.com. Follow GRITtv or GRITlaura on Twitter.com.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/502872/all_too_familiar_on_afghanistan

[LoungeMachine]

He may not be responsible for this war/occupation's inception.....

But he'll be responsible for every last soldier and marine who dies for this mistake.

There's NOTHING to "win" there.

Declare victory, and get the fuck out.

Regroup here, and live to fight another day.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Are you insinuating that in the Front Line we don't debate ideas, but rather just piss on each other personally?

I'll just say that the percentage of time actually debating has declined drastically in lieu of pissing....

Retard... ;)

[LoungeMachine]

I'll just say that the percentage of time actually debating has declined drastically in lieu of pissing....

Retard... ;)

But when we do ask people to stay on topic and to stop pissing, just look at the increase in traffic in the Feedback Forum!!! ;)

If they can't piss here, they'll piss louder in Feedback about their rights being stomped on. :lmao:

:gulp:


faggot.

[Dr. Love]

I'll just say that the percentage of time actually debating has declined drastically in lieu of pissing....

Retard... ;)

I did a quantitative analysis on quality of posts in The Front Line and here is what I discovered:

http://miraclefingers.synaesoft.com/here/FrontLine.png

[Dr. Love]

bitch.

[ZahZoo]

I'd like to debate this further but I gotta piss... BRB

[Nickdfresh]

It does seems like an absolute waste of taxpayer money and troop lives.

What's an absolute "waste?" Should we withdraw? Or do you believe we're not sending enough?


In boxing they call it telegraphing. Why Obama would broadcast to the world that he intends to pull out in 18 months after announcing the deployment of 30 thousand troops is just absurd.

The 18 months deadline is so filled with loopholes, qualifiers, "ifs" and "whens" --that it's not even really relevant to the discussion and is essentially a meaningless line meant to assuage the left...


Al Qaeda has no problem stepping out of the picture for 18 months and waiting out this latest surge. This group is very patient and methodical. It must be frustrating to be a soldier in today's U.S. military. My heart goes out to them.

So you think we should withdraw and let al Qaida take over Afghanistan?

[Va Beach VH Fan]

I did a quantitative analysis on quality of posts in The Front Line and here is what I discovered:

http://miraclefingers.synaesoft.com/here/FrontLine.png

You've pretty much nailed it....




Fudgepacker... ;)

[Dr. Love]

Thanks ... cockmonger. ;)

[lesfunk]

Nice potty mouths. A real couple of Shit Hammers, both of ya

[kwame k]

Kiss your Mothers with those mouthes......assholes.

The profanity is fucking killing me here;)

[Dr. Love]

Kiss your Mothers with those mouthes......assholes.

The profanity is fucking killing me here;)

No, I kiss yours ... cumdumpster ;)

[kwame k]

No, I kiss yours ... cumdumpster ;)

I'm fucking warning you ass-munch......enough already:)

I will not tolerate profanity on a wholesome website like this:rant:

[LoungeMachine]

That's it....

I'M DELETING ALL OF YOUR POTTY MOUTH POSTS

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Bunch of faggots in this place...

[Nickdfresh]

That's it....

I'M DELETING ALL OF YOUR POTTY MOUTH POSTS

:gulp:

I'm telling MAX!! :talktothehand:

[LoungeMachine]

I'm telling MAX!! :talktothehand:

Think you'll have to tell his girlfriend first..... :D

[Dr. Love]

I'm fucking warning you ass-munch......enough already:)

I will not tolerate profanity on a wholesome website like this:rant:

ok ok I'm sorry




































douchenozzle ;)

[hideyoursheep]

Which one of you Thread Nazi's deleted my post?


:mad:



AHHHHHHGH!!!


That's it, I quit RA.


:smoke:

[Nickdfresh]

Which one of you Thread Nazi's deleted my post?


:mad:



AHHHHHHGH!!!


That's it, I quit RA.


:smoke:

The one on "Fisting?"

[Nickdfresh]

NYT: Similarities to Iraq surge mask Afghan risks
Analyst: ‘Only thing Iraq and Afghanistan have in common is a lot of sand’
ANALYSIS
By David E. Sanger
The New York Times
updated 4:02 a.m. ET, Sat., Dec . 5, 2009

WASHINGTON - President Obama strongly opposed President George W. Bush’s surge in Iraq during his presidential campaign, and even now he has never publicly acknowledged that it was largely successful.

But in the White House Situation Room a little more than a month ago, he told his aides, “It turned out to be a good thing.” And as many of Mr. Obama’s own advisers have recounted in recent days in interviews, the decision on the surge of 30,000 troops to Afghanistan by next summer was at least partly inspired by the success of the effort in Iraq, which Mr. Bush’s aides say is their best hope that historians will give them some credit when the history of a highly problematic war is written.

In fact, Iraq analogies have been flying back and forth so furiously in recent days that Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates, the only holdover from the Bush-era cabinet, told Congress, “This is the second surge I’ve been up here defending.”

But probe beneath the surface, and it becomes clear that Mr. Obama is heading into his new strategy with his ears ringing with warnings — from some of his own aides and military commanders — that many of the conditions that made the Iraq surge work do not exist in Afghanistan.

As one of the strategists deeply involved in the White House Situation Room debates put it, “We spent a lot of time discussing the fact that the only thing Iraq and Afghanistan have in common is a lot of sand.”

Striking similarities
Still, the similarities in the surges are striking. The absolute number of additional troops is roughly the same: 30,000. The Iraq figure, 28,500 troops, was 7,000 more than Mr. Bush first announced; Mr. Obama’s team says that will not happen in this case.

The deployment time in the case of Iraq was six months; when the Pentagon first came to President Obama two months ago with a plan that stretched over 18 months, he offered up some withering questions. He turned to Gen. David H. Petraeus, now the head of Central Command and the commander in Iraq during the Bush surge, and asked: “What takes so long? What’s so hard about this?”

White House officials say it was Mr. Obama himself who pressed the idea of a surge of his own, openly acknowledging in a meeting that he had criticized it harshly during the campaign.

Both surges aimed to knock back an insurgency that had gained territory and caused high casualties, and to buy time and space to train local forces for combat. “Neither one of these surges,” said one officer involved in both decisions, “was born to exploit success. They were designed to reverse momentum.”

No one in the Obama White House voices much admiration for the inheritance left by Mr. Bush, so it was probably unintentional that when the Afghanistan strategy was announced on Tuesday, the rollout had echoes of the earlier one. Mr. Bush’s fact sheet on the surge carried the headline “The New Way Forward in Iraq.” Mr. Obama’s speech carried the title “The Way Forward in Afghanistan and Pakistan.”

Lack of support, trained military
But the commonalities end there. The Iraq surge worked in large part because there was powerful support in Anbar Province from the so-called Awakening, the movement by local Sunni tribes who rose up against extremists who were killing people, forcibly marrying local women and cutting off the hands of men who smoked in public. In Iraq, American officials believed that most leaders of a vigorous opposition, Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, were foreigners.

The United States remains hopeful that it can capitalize on Afghan militias that have taken up arms against the Taliban in local areas, but a series of intelligence reports supplied to Mr. Obama since September found no evidence in Afghanistan of anything on the scale of the Iraqi Awakening movement. What’s more, in Afghanistan the extremists, the Taliban, are natives.

“They are part of the furniture in Afghanistan; they have always been there,” one of Mr. Obama’s counterterrorism experts said, explaining why Mr. Obama’s goal is simply to degrade the Taliban’s power, not to defeat the group. In Iraq, the aim was to defeat the insurgents, a goal that has been largely achieved.

Then there is the question of whether Afghanistan’s military is trainable. Iraq’s forces were in a shambles, but the country had a tradition of military order. Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, reminded senators this week that in Iraq it took several years to get traction, and that in Afghanistan it could take longer.

“It was really late ’07 before the police in Iraq really started to step out,” he said, adding later, “we have to be careful with comparisons.”

Deadline ‘fatal to the overall strategy?’
Perhaps the biggest difference between the two surges is this: Mr. Bush never said how long his would last, and Mr. Obama went out of his way to declare that starting in July 2011, the tide would begin to flow out. The administration — mostly Mr. Gates — spent much of the week explaining the twin logic of going in strong and then signaling the beginning of a departure, emphasizing many times that if conditions were poor, the reduction in American forces would be slow.

The theory of the deadline was that it was the only way to show President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan that American patience was limited and that its commitment was not open-ended.

Mr. Gates again drew analogies to Iraq, saying, “I think, as we turn over more districts and more provinces to Afghan security control, much as we did with the provincial Iraqi control, that there will be a thinning of our forces and a gradual drawdown.”

But to Republican critics of that approach — and some architects of the Iraq surge — the announcement sows the seeds of failure before the process begins. “The question is: Is it fatal to the overall strategy?” asked Meghan O’Sullivan, the deputy national security adviser for Iraq and Afghanistan in the Bush administration, and now a professor at Harvard’s Kennedy School. “I think it may be.”

Her argument is that many in Afghanistan, and the leadership in Pakistan, will decide that the date is a slow-motion repeat of 1989, when the United States began to pull back from Afghanistan after the Soviets left in defeat. In the next few weeks, members of the Obama war cabinet are expected to show up in Islamabad and Kabul with one message: We’re not leaving. Really.

This article, “Similarities to Iraq Surge Plan Mask Risks in Afghanistan,” first appeared in The New York Times.

Copyright

© 2009 The New York Times (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34285959/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/)

[standin]

I still don't get why the terrain is so tough...
Would it be like invading Texas or Nevada, if Nevada was bigger?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/af.html

[jhale667]

I still don't get why the terrain is so tough...
Would it be like invading Texas or Nevada, if Nevada was bigger?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/af.html

Nevada, if you threw in the Appalachian, Ozark and Rocky Mountain ranges combined? With even more ignorant "rednecks"? ;)

Heard on the news the other day 90% of the region is illiterate, and that's a conservative estimate!

[standin]

That's where it is screwed up. How can a 90% illiteracy rate be broken? What a waste. :(

[jhale667]

That's where it is screwed up. How can a 90% illiteracy rate be broken? What a waste. :(

It's amazing something like that exists anywhere in the world when it's almost 2010. But it does there by design.

But the Taliban reminds me of Southern Slave owners in our history in regards to the way women are "forbidden" to learn...for the exact same reason too...the powers that be (that have made it through the Farsi equivalent of "The little engine that could") know that knowledge is power and that women (much like the slaves) would soon realize they were at the very least their "captor's" equals....and kick them to the fucking curb.

I forget which comedian it was, but he had a mock-suggestion that was actually brilliant: Use US and NATO forces and airlift EVERY woman and child out of there, and those backward zealot fucks will DIE OUT in a generation! Problem solved! :hee:

[standin]

True that, the survival of the species depend on the female.
But at 90% illiteracy rate that is not just woman not knowing how to read
But as our resident trolls point out, it is more than just reading, one has to be able to reason too.
Corruption, making corruption gross would go a longer way than just reading.
Big huge issue.

[FORD]

Nevada, if you threw in the Appalachian, Ozark and Rocky Mountain ranges combined? With even more ignorant "rednecks"? ;)



More ignorant? Have you ever been to Reno? :biggrin:

[jhale667]

More ignorant? Have you ever been to Reno? :biggrin:

Nah, just Vegas. So I take it "Reno 911" is only mildly fictitious? ;)
But I did grow up in the armpit of Appalachia, and was - no shit - teased as a kid for NOT quitting school(!), so I have an idea...:hee:

[kwame k]

It's amazing something like that exists anywhere in the world when it's almost 2010. But it does there by design.

But the Taliban reminds me of Southern Slave owners in our history in regards to the way women are "forbidden" to learn...for the exact same reason too...the powers that be (that have made it through the Farsi equivalent of "The little engine that could") know that knowledge is power and that women (much like the slaves) would soon realize they were at the very least their "captor's" equals....and kick them to the fucking curb.

I forget which comedian it was, but he had a mock-suggestion that was actually brilliant: Use US and NATO forces and airlift EVERY woman and child out of there, and those backward zealot fucks will DIE OUT in a generation! Problem solved! :hee:


Spot on, Jay!

Bill Clinton is involved or endorsing exactly that......educating women and helping them become self sufficient.....http://causewired.com/tag/bill-clinton/



*****I know, easy joke alert******

[kwame k]

But I did grow up in the armpit of Appalachia, and was - no shit - teased as a kid for NOT quitting school(!), so I have an idea...:hee:

Wow...just plain Wow!

[standin]

It is not just about woman. Research from the Antarctic isolation has shown that the best most stable communities when isolated are ones that have coupling. Couples that work together. What good is being independent, if you have no one to be independent with. That sounds horribly lonely and odd. And in a culture that emphsises coupling, it would seem even stranger.

[kwame k]

It's not about isolating or taking away couples....it's about educating and finding work for women in 3rd world countries. All studies have shown that the quality of life for all people increase with an educated and employed female population.

[jhale667]

In other words, illiterate, barefoot (under a burka), and pregnant is no way to go through life, ma'am ... ;)

And yes the comedian that made that joke said airlift out all the women and children..as in getting all the little boys out of there before they're polluted by that ignorant mindset too...that way only the dumbfuck adult males are left to die out like the cultural dinosaurs they are.

[standin]

I agree. Finance and education is the way to empower people. I would consider Mississippi in the late 80's early 90's to be one of the more backward areas of the USA. When Casinos were brought in and gave an avenue for the less skilled, for example woman, the divorce rate went up. That is not such a bad thing. It is best if people are paired with suitable mates and not just mates of economic means. In the region, the only real work was male dominated shipbuilding; moreover, it is such skilled hard labor. When given the opportunity to a less taxing labor both male and females benefitted.

I am not advocating casinos as a viable resolution to economic hardship, just one example of how an area reacted to suitable monies.

What is not realized when economies are driven by physically brute focus ability. Such as Afghanistan and ability to be a warlord (or the person that is able to kill for a living.), it creates an environment that not only females but males are not able to thrive.

Most people (male and female) are not able to function in a society that is based on one's ability to police. It takes a unique ability to police and even more unique ability to police without corruption. Actually, it takes a community to police the police.

The point is when Mississippi brought in the casinos family life was disrupted. However, family life was quickly brought back on track by the casinos that catered to their employee stability. Law regulated this stability. By law, solid reputable people were needed to run the casino. This formula need not only be in casinos. Law can regulate reputable people into any business.

Ah, you say, what about me fuck ups. I do not want to be shut out. To this I say, there are avenues, to repair your name. It takes an effort; as well, it should because fuck-ups are not suitable to business. Keep corruption out by law like the casinos and this is a suitable and will achieve results.

[standin]

This was and is a part of my history. I am comfortable speaking on such matters.

[GO-SPURS-GO]

That dinosaur system works, for them. Americans have no room to criticize problems in other country’s, because we have MAJOR problems in our own country. I don’t think there are very many Muslims in the filthy porn industry, their kids don’t have ADD/ADHD and taking Zoloft because they’re depressed because mommy and daddy threw them in daycare because they are too busy working trying to pay off the TV’s with Xbox’s in every room, two or three cars, and other unnecessary stuff. I could be wrong, but there’s not a big problem with sexually transmitted diseases, their kids don’t turn Emo and cut themselves because mommy and daddy didn’t give them something they wanted or never there to show them attention. I can go on and on, but I’ll stop here. :)

They will be around another thousand years, while our country will only be talked about in history books.

That’s what I think anyway...

:rant:

[jhale667]

That dinosaur system works, for them.


No, it doesn't. Don't (further) fool yourself. That system is completely dysfunctional, but then, you're OK with corrupt zealot theocracies, right?


Americans have no room to criticize problems in other country’s, because we have MAJOR problems in our own country.


Riiiiight. Although that may be true, at least we don't subjugate women and make them wear head-to-toe burlap sacks. You're reaching.


I don’t think there are very many Muslims in the filthy porn industry

Yeah IIRC there's a few girls of muslim descent in the industry. Irrelevant.


...their kids don’t have ADD/ADHD and taking Zoloft because they’re depressed because mommy and daddy threw them in daycare...blah blah


As for the rest of your flawed-logic ramble - Why drag your buddy GAyR's personal life into this? :biggrin:



I could be wrong


You are. It's not just America (rightfully) calling them morons, it's practically every other civilized society in the world...



mommy and daddy didn’t give them something they wanted or never there to show them attention. I can go on and on, but I’ll stop here.


Please do -besides the reaching part, you'll dredge up more childhood memories and hurt GAyR's feelings. And Thermos'. :hee:


They will be around another thousand years, while our country will only be talked about in history books.


Will 90% of them still be illiterate?



That’s what I think anyway...


And sorry, but your preceding post proves why you're not paid to...yeah, let's leave them alone and let a bunch of predominantly illiterate religious zealots who want to start a holy war get ahold of Pakistan's nukes...that'd be awesome. :rolleyes:

[ZahZoo]

That dinosaur system works, for them. Americans have no room to criticize problems in other country’s, because we have MAJOR problems in our own country. I don’t think there are very many Muslims in the filthy porn industry, their kids don’t have ADD/ADHD and taking Zoloft because they’re depressed because mommy and daddy threw them in daycare because they are too busy working trying to pay off the TV’s with Xbox’s in every room, two or three cars, and other unnecessary stuff. I could be wrong, but there’s not a big problem with sexually transmitted diseases, their kids don’t turn Emo and cut themselves because mommy and daddy didn’t give them something they wanted or never there to show them attention. I can go on and on, but I’ll stop here. :)


:rant:

No their kids don't go Emo... they just strap bombs to themselves and go kill as many innocent people as they can...

[Nickdfresh]

No their kids don't go Emo... they just strap bombs to themselves and go kill as many innocent people as they can...

Actually, they don't. Very few do this, and even the ones who have in Iraq were not told they were going to be suicide bombers until the last minute. They were often 'baited and switched' being told they were going to fight as mujaheddin guerrilla infantry...

[BITEYOASS]

Nevada, if you threw in the Appalachian, Ozark and Rocky Mountain ranges combined? With even more ignorant "rednecks"? ;)

Heard on the news the other day 90% of the region is illiterate, and that's a conservative estimate!

Not to mention the landmines that are covered all over the place.

[thome]

Landmines should be built within the same laws described in the control balance sheet statuses of American manufacturing companies.

They have all of these things sitting water/burried in dirt,..etc, watching them decay to the point of uselessness and failure.

Then they establish build specs on what components to use to make sure everything is a crap failure, in 3-5 years and must be repurchased.

They ( landmines) are still killing dudes over in Vietnam from 40 years ago and I am sure the landmines the Russians dropped in Afganistan; by the millions, are still in working order.

If they built within this design/failure criteria everthing else is ... by some rule of law, they would dissable themselves in 3-5 years .

[jhale667]

Landmines are stupid anyway; they don't care who steps on them, friend or foe.

Nice post Thermos, but careful, you're breaking character again... ;)

[Nickdfresh]

Landmines are stupid anyway; they don't care who steps on them, friend or foe.

Right. But the problem is irresponsible parties that lose the maps and instantly forget about their fields when the war is over for them and their troops...