Euthanasia: Mercy or Murder?

[standin]

They live on the edge of death Every day is like the last one Life is unbearable pain to them In Russia they have no legal rights to leave this world to stop their suffering They often think that death is their only salvation How can we help them and what should they do?
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[Nitro Express]

We are at a crossroads of economics, technology, and moral concerns. My mom's aunt is 105 and lived a good life but now wants to die. She's ready to go and her money has ran out. If you look at healthcare costs, on average, the majority of catastrophic care expense is six weeks before a person dies. In other words, they are spending a fortune to keep the inevitable from happening. One major concern of people today is outliving their money and if their later years are going to be quality.

For me, it all makes me want to start smoking cigarettes, enjoy Jack Daniel's more and grab all the ass I can now. There really is something to "Eat Drink and Be Merry".

[Seshmeister]

Euthanasia is fine by me as long as there are safeguards in place.

Money shouldn't come into it though.

[jhale667]

Also, there's a difference in the voluntary sort and forced euthanasia (which is what the Repukes are trying to fear-monger everyone into thinking's going to happen). If someone is terminally ill and doesn't want to prolong their suffering, who are we to tell them they HAVE to stick around until the bitter, painful end?

[Seshmeister]

Exactly.

You wouldn't lock people in at a Chickenfoot gig.

[jhale667]

Exactly.

You wouldn't lock people in at a Chickenfoot gig.

That's a euthanasia/cruel and unusual punishment combo if I ever heard of one...

[Nitro Express]

Euthanasia is fine by me as long as there are safeguards in place.

Money shouldn't come into it though.

Too many fucking people on the planet now. Kill most of them except for some hot chicks, me, and some slaves and I'm good with it.

[standin]

You know, not Tobe high or anything ting. I think some of it has to do with killing the red heifer.
I had every right to refused medical care. My doctor damn near went in to shock when i requested my right.
My father, that was a different matter. I tried to get him on Kevorkian list. He was pretty much dead. Out side of the pain his life experience was limited at best.

Should he have suffered, a hell on Earth, maybe. I was not willing to go to jail to kill him to ease his suffering, and I was his daughter.

[binnie]

Mercy. No question.

[Panamark]

Its widely practiced, yet never spoken about.
What do you call the ever increasing doses of Morphine
the patient receives ? It happens, they just dont blatantly
come out and say it. Coma victims, now thats a tough call..
Especially as some eventually come back.

[Nitro Express]

Kind of like the movie Fly Boys. "What's the pistol for?". "You can either burn to death in the plane. Fall thousands of feet to your death, or take the easy way out."

[FORD]

http://www.dgranthaynes.com/blogcfm/1/custom/bush_moron.jpg
Hey fellow 'Murikans, it's your old pal Duh-bya here.... I was
jus' wonderin what this thread had to do with Chinese kids?
Euth in Asia, right? Heh heh

[Seshmeister]

Kind of like the movie Fly Boys. "What's the pistol for?". "You can either burn to death in the plane. Fall thousands of feet to your death, or take the easy way out."



Falling thousands of feet wouldn't be so bad, good fun really. Lots of people pay to do that.

The only problem is the last few feet... :)

Sky Diver Says "I'm Dead, Bye" | Big Humor (http://www.bighumor.com/video/sky-diver-says-i-m-dead-bye)

[Igosplut]

I can't imagine being stuck in a comatose state. Good reason for a living will, that's for sure. After watching a few people die that I was close to recently that were terminally ill, there really should be some laws in place for the persons that want to end it. And I agree with Sesh, it shouldn't be a monetary decision....

[jhale667]

I can't imagine being stuck in a comatose state.

Did you hear about that guy that was diagnosed as in a "vegetative state" for 20+ years that recently came out of it (he's still a mess, but learning how to communicate again)? He says he was AWARE the entire time :eek: , but couldn't move or respond...what level of HELL is that?


Maybe Satan can answer that question for us...but that guy could easily have been Euthanized by mistake...not that his current quality of life is all that great, but make you think...:umm:

[FORD]

Didn't Metallica make a song about that.... which was based on a movie.... which might have actually been a true story?

I think I'd rather be in the actual Hell than be stuck in that kind of state. Or maybe I'm just saying that because it's too goddamned cold here?

[jhale667]

Didn't Metallica make a song about that.... which was based on a movie.... which might have actually been a true story?

I think I'd rather be in the actual Hell than be stuck in that kind of state. Or maybe I'm just saying that because it's too goddamned cold here?


Kind of...based off a movie (which may have been based on a true story, can't remember the name of the flick, though) - dude gets his arms, legs and FACE blown off in an artillery explosion in the war, the docs think he's a vegetable 'til he starts spelling out "KILL ME" in Morse code by bobbing what's left of his head....


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[Seshmeister]

Did you hear about that guy that was diagnosed as in a "vegetative state" for 20+ years that recently came out of it (he's still a mess, but learning how to communicate again)? He says he was AWARE the entire time :eek: , but couldn't move or respond...what level of HELL is that?
:

It's an interesting story because it has been COMPLETELY FALSELY reported all over the media.

It's a fucking disgrace it really is.

This con woman bitch of fuck is pretending to be able to help him communicate when if you watch the video closely she is just completely making up the shit herself.

Fucking witch!

The terrible thing is the tiny possibility that he has got back a little bit of consciousness only for this cunt to take over.

As pointed out by by a neurologist -

NeuroLogica Blog Dr. Laureys Responds Regarding Man in Coma (http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=1306&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)


The problem is that the communication shown on these videos is simply impossible. We see Linda Wouters, Houben’s “facilitator”, looking intently at the screen and typing away, while Houben looks away with his eyes closed. No one can one-finger type without looking at the screen. Wouters claims to read the subtle clues from Houben’s intent – this despite the fact that clinical exams revealed his hand was completely paralyzed. The video also does not show what Wouters claims – following subtle muscle clues is very difficult, and would require (if at all possible) a gentle touch and some time to zero in on the intent, most likely with some overshooting . Again, what we see in the video is a woman typing very fast and precisely using Houben’s paralyzed hand.

This case must also be viewed in the context of history of facilitated communication (FC) – a technique introduced about twenty years ago to allegedly allow the cognitively or motor impaired to communicate by typing. The theory was that some people are just too weak to move their hand around to type, so a facilitator will support their hand while the client directs the movement. However, testing showed that this technique was nothing more than self-deception – specifically the ideomotor effect. It is the facilitator who is doing all the communicating.

Despite utter scientific failure, FC lives on in the fringe of legitimate therapy. It is also often a cruel form a pseudoscience. Family members have been deceived into thinking their impaired children were writing poetry, only to have that delusion taken from them. There have also been numerous accusations of physical and sexual abuse made via FC. FC is a destructive pseudoscience that leaves victims in its wake.

People including me have read and heard about this case in the media and taken them at face value when it's bullshit.

In layman's terms they thought the guy was a vegetable but he's actually not but he's not fully conscious drifting in and out of deep sleep/coma.

[Seshmeister]

Watch this video being wrongly reported in the BBC and explain to me how in a million fucking years the cunt knows which key he is selecting.

BBC News - Paralysed Belgian misdiagnosed as in coma for 23 years (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8375326.stm)

There is even a video where he isn't looking with his eyes closed. :)

It's incredible that so many reporters have been duped by this...

It's frightening.

You could be gone and this sick cunt comes in and grabs your hand and starts typing out your will with it...

[jhale667]

That lady does seem to be typing awfully fast, but there are points were he does appear to be at least trying to pay attention to what she's doing...

Fucking sick if that's indeed what she's doing to the poor guy...but one wonders...Stephen Hawking doesn't need a "Facilitator" to use the device he uses to type sentences that are then voiced for him...why haven't they tried letting him use something more like that?

Interestingly -though slightly off-topic, was reading a story about Hawking and Jason Becker (probably the two longest known survivors - I guess you can call it that - of ALS) meeting, and Hawking thinks the eye-movement/letter grid system Becker worked out with his father and caretakers is WAY more efficient...

Last I heard Hawking's health was in serious decline though, poor guy...whereas Becker has seemingly plateaued...not getting any better, but not getting any worse... :(

[Seshmeister]

Hawkings is awake and selects the letters himself.

This 'facillitating' cunt is supposedly receiving messages from his paralyzed hand and selecting letters at 10 times the speed anyone in perfect health could communicate to her.

The only thing worse than being locked in unable to move your body would be to sit there whilst this witch made up your thoughts.

I would euthanize her with my boot!

[Seshmeister]

Watch the shitty CBS report at 1:17.

It's so bad it's almost funny, the guy is lying there with his eyes closed whilst she types away furiously...

<embed src='http://cnettv.cnet.com/av/video/cbsnews/atlantis2/player-dest.swf' FlashVars='linkUrl=http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5759694n&releaseURL=http://cnettv.cnet.com/av/video/cbsnews/atlantis2/player-dest.swf&videoId=50079979,50079989,50079988,50079987,500799 85,50079984,50079983&partner=news&vert=News&si=254&autoPlayVid=false&name=cbsPlayer&allowScriptAccess=always&wmode=transparent&embedded=y&scale=noscale&rv=n&salign=tl' allowFullScreen='true' width='425' height='324' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' pluginspage='http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer'></embed><br/><a href='http://www.cbsnews.com'>Watch CBS News Videos Online</a>

[Seshmeister]

The more I look at this the more annoyed I'm getting although I'm 2 weeks late on this. :)

This Cruel Farce Has To Stop! (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/783-this-cruel-farce-has-to-stop.html)


This Cruel Farce Has To Stop! PDF Print E-mail
Swift
Written by James Randi
Wednesday, 25 November 2009 00:00

Update!

For those who may need further evidence for my contention, the proof can be found at Belgian coma man was awake for 23 years (http://tinyurl.com/ye9d9lp) -- where it is clearly seen that the “facilitator” is looking directly at the keyboard, while the subject is asleep! There can be no further doubt. This FC claim is simply untrue, a farce, a lie – and the “facilitator” knows it! And no, this man is not going to write a book, but the "facilitator" is, and if this humbug is not stopped, she'll make a fortune doing so. Put a stop to this, someone!"

But who will see that the caretakers for this unfortunate man are corrected and made to answer for this situation?

Original article:

I'm enraged. Several perceptive persons have sent me to msnbc.com - where we can see Dr. Nancy Snyderman relating a story. It's a heartrender, described thus by Dr. Snyderman:

A mother [in Belgium] says her son has emerged from what doctors thought was a vegetative state to say he was fully conscious for 23 years but could not respond because he was paralyzed.

No, that is not what the man said, Dr. Snyderman. That's what an incompetent layperson typed for him! I ask you to first go to Dr. Nancy (http://tinyurl.com/y8lku48), and note the section of the video from 12 to 35 seconds, then come back here.

This is yet another obvious example of abysmal, practiced, purposeful ignorance by medical personnel - including Dr. Snyderman and her staff who prepared this piece. I cannot understand how anyone, professional medical person or layman, can continue to believe that the farce known as "Facilitated Communication" [FC] represents anything other than a fantasy that was begun back in 1977, when an Australian woman named Rosemary Crossley came up with the idea that autistic persons could express their thoughts via a keyboard when their hand was "supported" by what she called a "facilitator." In 1989, Douglas Biklen, a sociologist and professor of special education at Syracuse University, eagerly took up her cause, and as a result vast sums were donated to SU by friends and family members of autism victims - money that was simply wasted in futile "research."

I personally investigated this matter. In March of 1992 I was contacted by Dr. Anne M. Donnellan, of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, who asked if I would be willing to participate in an investigation of FC as used with autistic children. I was already familiar with FC, and suggested to her that I felt the researchers were perhaps under the influence of the Clever Hans Effect [CHE], also known as the "ideomotor effect," in which the trainer - the facilitator in this case - was unconsciously transmitting the information to the autistic child. This possibility was emphatically denied by Dr. Donnellan, and I was assured that every care had been taken to ensure that the CHE was not in operation. The Clever Hans Effect is notorious in psychology. Early in the last century, a horse named Clever Hans - in German, der Kluge Hans - was claimed to have been able to perform arithmetic and other simple intellectual tasks. In 1907, psychologist Oskar Pfungst showed conclusively that the horse was not actually performing these mental tasks, but was reacting to cues provided by his trainer.

My tests of autistic children at the University of Wisconsin-Madison clearly showed that FC was simply a tragic farce. My findings were totally ignored. The full account of this matter will be discussed in detail in my next book, A Magician in the Laboratory.

The "facilitated communication" process consists of the "facilitator" actually holding the hand of the subject over the keyboard, moving the hand to the key, then drawing the hand back from the keyboard! This very intimate participatory action lends itself very easily to transferring the intended information to the computer screen. In the video you have just viewed, it is very evident that (a) the "facilitator" is looking directly at the keyboard and the screen, and (b) is moving the subject's hand. The video editing is also biased, giving angles that line up the head of the subject with the screen, as if the subject were watching the screen.

This man in the msnbc.com piece is not seeing the screen. He is not aware of what is going on. He is an unknowing victim of these charlatans. A simple test - such as that done on October 19th, 1993, in a Frontline (PBS) documentary highlighting these concerns, "Prisoners of Silence," would prove that FC is a total fraud. This powerful and comprehensive program proved that FC was a delusion.

Dr. Snyderman, how did this get by you? The evidence is right there on the screen! Others have solved this fraud. The Association for Behavior Analysis International (ABAI), the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and the American Association on Mental Retardation, have no doubts about this. ABAI calls FC a "discredited technique" and warns that "its use is unwarranted and unethical." The Association for Science in Autism Treatment reviewed the research and position statements and concluded that the messages typed were controlled by the facilitator, not by the individual with autism, and that FC did not improve language skills.

We critics of FC question why people can apparently give speeches in public - via a keyboard and a "facilitator" - and go to college - similarly "assisted" - yet they cannot answer a series of simple questions under controlled conditions! Psychologist Daniel Wegner, professor of psychology at Harvard University and a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science has stated that facilitated communication is a striking example of the ideomotor effect, and tests of FC show that it is a complete fraud, farce, and delusion!

Please, Dr. Snyderman, may we hear from you, in light of what appears here?

[Seshmeister]

I completely 100% guarantee this case will be falsely cited in ten thousand blogs and everywhere all over the internet the next time a Terri Shiavo case comes up...

[GAR]

Falling thousands of feet wouldn't be so bad, good fun really. Lots of people pay to do that.

What a way to go though!

[sadaist]

Kind of...based off a movie (which may have been based on a true story, can't remember the name of the flick, though) - dude gets his arms, legs and FACE blown off in an artillery explosion in the war, the docs think he's a vegetable 'til he starts spelling out "KILL ME" in Morse code by bobbing what's left of his head....


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Johnny Got His Gun. Originally a book, then made into old movie. Funny thing, the book in my high school inside the front panel you write your name when you check it out. All the heads names were in there. :biggrin:

Johnny Got His Gun (1971) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067277/)

[FORD]

I'm surprised Lar$ hasn't sued the book's publisher for royalties.

"Hey nobody read your fuckin book until they saw our video. So we want our cut"

[sadaist]

I'm surprised Lar$ hasn't sued the book's publisher for royalties.

"Hey nobody read your fuckin book until they saw our video. So we want our cut"


LMFAO!

Now that's some serious channeling there. Did you hold a fucking seance? I could 100% see him doing that.

[standin]

When God (all that there is) sees fit for us to understand and accept "psychic" he will provide the devices and technology to read it scientifically.
The "channeling" of this lady, is not record-able by human means. Therefore does not exist by God's decree.

[Seshmeister]

It took a few months but they got there in the end I suppose.

Problem is it will no doubt still be cited falsely although there are similar stories about how it was a fake at the BBC, Washington Post etc.

I wish we still had a ducking chair or stocks to stick that deceitful witch in...

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/814078-23-year-coma-man-rom-houbens-communication-proved-to-be-fake


23-year coma man Rom Houben's 'communication' proved to be fake

Apparent attempts at communication from a man who had been in 'a persistent vegetative state' for over two decades have been proved to be faked.



Last November, Belgian Rom Houben, who had been in a vegetative state for more than 20 years following a car accident, reportedly began to communicate by typing with the assistance of a speech therapist.

It was a hailed as breakthrough and a miracle.

Footage of Houben apparently typing out his thoughts on a keyboard while the therapist 'guided his hand' attracted worldwide media attention and gave hope to families with loved ones in a simlar state.

"Powerlessness. Utter powerlessness. At first I was angry, then I learned to live with it," was one of Houben's 'statements'.

At the time there was considerable scepticism, with commentators questioning about the speed of the typing, noting that Houben wasn't even looking at the screen and suggesting that it was the therapist behind the messages.

Now Dr Steven Laureys, Houben's neurologist, has thoroughly dismissed the possibility that his patient was genuinely communicating.

Laureys carried out a 15-stage test in which Houben saw or heard reference to 15 items.

He was then asked to use his single, incompletely paralysed finger to press the corresponding word on the touch screen - without the help of the speech therapist.

But he failed on every item. To make sure the test was fair, Laureys gave the same test to another, impaired patient, who successfully completed the test.

Meaning that Houben's therapist must have been doingmore than just guiding his finger.

It would appear that Houben is conscious, and images of his brain activity are only slightly differently from that of a healthy brain, and Dr Laureys and his team at University of Cambridge University have developed a brain imaging technique that allowed them to converse with a paralysed man previously thought to be in a vegetative state.

Regrettably, the procedure is 'entirely unsuitable' for Houben as 'one attempt ended without usable results because spasms make it nearly impossible for Houben to hold his head still'.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Mercy. No question.

agreed

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Falling thousands of feet wouldn't be so bad, good fun really. Lots of people pay to do that.

The only problem is the last few feet... :)

Sky Diver Says "I'm Dead, Bye" | Big Humor (http://www.bighumor.com/video/sky-diver-says-i-m-dead-bye)

nope, it's the sudden stop at the end.;)

[binnie]

My mom suffers from MS, has done for 26 years. Can't walk, can't cook, can't shower herself, and lives a life controlled by when someone is available to help her on an off the toilet.

I quite often wonder how much worse it'll get before she has no quality of life whatsoever - having endured a body slowly rebelling against her almost her entire lifetime, anyone who would deny her the authority or ability to make a descision on whether or not she wanted to live can gladly fuck off.

There is a difference between not wanting to live and actively wanting to die. But with an ever-increasing ageing population, these our issues that we need to FORCE into the forum of debate.

[Kristy]

Euthanasia is fine by me as long as there are safeguards in place.

Money shouldn't come into it though.

It should never become a business of profit as it has with animals. Could be a food chain type of ethic but humans should never be euthanized by organized groups despite what medical credentials they may or may not have. If you death is immanent due to untreatable standards of your disease and you're in tremendous suffering and/or pain and adding to family debt for medical cost then by all means you should have the (personal) right to make the choice to die.

And on a side note, none of you should be pussies and fail to become a organ donor at your next driver's license renewal. :)

[Seshmeister]

If you death is immanent due to untreatable standards of your disease and you're in tremendous suffering and/or pain and adding to family debt for medical cost then by all means you should have the (personal) right to make the choice to die.


One of the many problems in living in a country without a civilized health care system... :(

[thome]

One of the many problems in living in a country without a civilized health care system... :(

Dude, c'mon think...


We are America we are light years ahead of the game....bro ...man.

There are many organizations set up, but until you have helped a family member thru it. I guess you wouldn't know..?

If you have perhaps you haven't done that in America...no harsh, i'm just say'n//

This is the confusion you get when responding to a objectivley incorrect statement written as if it was a issue of concern.. by the thread creator...dude...

[Anonymous]

adding to family debt for medical cost

Doesn't it suddenly become clear why all those hypocrite sons of bitches claim that euthanasia is a crime?

Can't we allow people the choice to die, and kill those profiting from a suffering person too?

Cheers! :bottle:

[chefcraig]

If you death is immanent due to untreatable standards of your disease and you're in tremendous suffering and/or pain and adding to family debt for medical cost then by all means you should have the (personal) right to make the choice to die.


Living wills do not cover this?

[LoungeMachine]

Dude, c'mon think...


.

You first....

:gulp:

[thome]

You first....

:gulp:


Ok I'll bite ..Who's there..?

[BigBadBrian]

I don't support the term Euthanasia, at least as it's defined here.

This implies medical people have a responsibility to help a person end their life.

Not acceptable...medical people should be used for life-saving measures only.

If a person really wants to die, they should have their family steal enough potassium chloride to inject in them or their IV to stop their heart. Leave the doctors, nurses, and profiteers out of it.

[Seshmeister]

You don't seem to undertand what euthanasia is.

It is a deliberate intervention undertaken with the express intention of ending a life, to relieve intractable suffering. So the example you give would be euthanasia.

Your simplistic idea completely misses the whole debate. The family you describe could currently be charged with theft and murder, some people think that is unjust.

Your libertarianism doesn't work here because with no government/legal framework how do you distinguish between the family member who murders or the one that does it out of love to end suffering?

[BigBadBrian]

You don't seem to undertand what euthanasia is.

It is a deliberate intervention undertaken with the express intention of ending a life, to relieve intractable suffering. So the example you give would be euthanasia.

Your simplistic idea completely misses the whole debate. The family you describe could currently be charged with theft and murder.

I understand full well what euthanasia is.

Relieving suffering is a noble idea, but the medical establishment should have no part in that if it results in deliberate death.

[binnie]

But families shouldn't have to risk criminal prosecutions for ending a loved one's sufferings either....

[BigBadBrian]

But families shouldn't have to risk criminal prosecutions for ending a loved one's sufferings either....

Sure they should. That's the law.

Life's full of hard choices.

[Seshmeister]

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee43/Seshmeister/holmes.gif

Thanks for your thoughtful contribution.

[chefcraig]

Sure they should. That's the law.

Life's full of hard choices.

Ever been in the situation, personally? If you had, you wouldn't be so flippant with your statements on the subject. Seeing a loved one reduced in dignity is a horrifying experience. The suffering all around is nothing short of inhumane, as the patient has lost hope and is reduced to merely existing, not living. And for the family forced to stand there with their hands tied, with absolutely no way to address the situation is cruel, thoughtless and completely unnecessary.

But it's the law, so everyone should just get over it, right?

Now that I think about it, you really must be attempting to stir people up. No one could be as callously indifferent to the plight of others if they'd experienced the passing of a loved one in such a shameful manner. I get it, you are merely taking a position, portraying a devil's advocate.

Hey, that's fine. It beats the living hell out of "When do ya think we'll be hearin' some new Van Halen?"

[BigBadBrian]

Ever been in the situation, personally?

Yes


If you had, you wouldn't be so flippant with your statements on the subject.



Yes I would/am. Been there, done that. I'm more qualified to give my opinion than most on this board.



Seeing a loved one reduced in dignity is a horrifying experience. The suffering all around is nothing short of inhumane, as the patient has lost hope and is reduced to merely existing, not living. And for the family forced to stand there with their hands tied, with absolutely no way to address the situation is cruel, thoughtless and completely unnecessary.

So what did you do about it?


But it's the law, so everyone should just get over it, right?

Yep, or have the guts to do something about it.

[chefcraig]

So what did you do about it?
But it's the law, so everyone should just get over it, right?

Yep, or have the guts to do something about it.

My family, friends and I witnessed my father die a slow withering, dignity free death. The amount of guts shown by all involved was quite impressive, particularly my dad, thank you.

[binnie]

Sure they should. That's the law.

Life's full of hard choices.

Wow.

So why did you chose not to do anything about it?

I am genuinely curious.....

[binnie]

It seems to me that the whole euthenasia issue is a result of medical science's own success - keeping people alive who in any other circumstance would have died years ago inevitably yields a law of diminishing marginal returns.

None of us would want to live in countries that do not have the medical knowledge/technology that we enjoy. But given that it is medicine that has brought us to the point where we have an increasingly ageing population, it seems to be that medical practioners should be brought into the debate - surely they would be precisely the people who are most qualified to make these decisions.