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View Full Version : Nativity My Ass - The Reality Of Jesus's Birth



Hardrock69
12-18-2009, 02:09 AM
For far too long, the Earth has been lied to by the Catholic Asswipers whose goal has been to suck as much money as possible out of the Sheep....er, I mean "faithful".

The following is true and factual information and can be found in your fambly Bible, or anywhere on the internet where there are discussions about the original Old and New Testament writings dating from the 1st-century AD and BEFORE.


1. Jesus Was Not Born In A Stable:

There is not a single reference to a stable in ANY authorized Gospel. There is no mention of an ox, an ass, nor any of the creatures commonly depicted as hanging around a 'manger', crapping on the straw, drooling as they absent-mindedly munch on their feed, or hay, or whatever the fuck they ate back then.
Only 2 of the Four Gospels (Matthew and Luke) mention this event, while Mark and John do not mention it at all.

It plainly says in Matthew 2:11 that the location of Jesus's birth was a house.

The notion of Jesus being born in some kind of stable or other farmyard outbuilding derives from a single statement in 2:7 that says Mary laid him in a "manger, because there was no room in the Inn". But a manger is not a 'building', it is an animal feeding box. Thus the concept of an animal shed being where he was born was derived solely from the above verse, while ignoring the fact that Matthew specified the location as "a house".

As for the supposed "inn", the word "inn" was a corrupt translation. Such buildings or 'businesses' were unknown in the Middle East at that time, where it was common to invite travelers into one's home, and was regarded as a pious duty to do so.

The actual verse in the original Greek read there was "no topos in the kataluma, that is, "there was "no place in the room". Back then it was quite common for mangers to be used as substitute cradles when no actual ones were available.

Not only that, but back in the day, animals were not kept in separate buildings. They were kept in a separate room of the house.
Most modern authorities believe the notion of him being born or being kept in some feed-box surrounded by animals was just meant to demonstrate his humble beginnings.

2. The Date

Matthew and Luke disagree on the date this happened.
Matthew 2:3 states it happened while Herod reigned in Judea. Then, by stating in Matthew 2:22 that the king's son was Archaelus, the Herod in question can be seen as Herod I The Great, who died in the year 4 B.C.

Luke 2:1-2 claims Jesus was born in the year of the Judean census of Emperor Augustus, when Cyrenius was Governor of Syria. This census took place in the year 6 A.D., the last year of the reign of Herod's son Archaelus.

The anomaly is the result of a tradition of the Essenes, where a boy had two 'births', his 'physical' birth, and is 're-birth', that is, his "coming of age" birth.

It was the ancient version of today's Jewish "Bar-Mitzvah".

So, his coming out ceremony happening in 6 A.D. at age 12 would tend to indicate his actual birth being about 6 B.C., while Herod The Great was still ruler of Judea.

3. Jesus was obviously NOT the "Son of God" as there is a great deal of space spent in the New Testament listing his genealogy from the House Of David. Even though the Gospel of John does not mention the birth event specifically, John 7:42 DOES say "Hath not the scripture said, that Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem where David was". Also, St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans Chapter 1, verses 3-4 state: "Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God".

In Mark 10:47 AND Matthew 22:42 Jesus is called the "son of David". In Acts 2:30, Peter (referring to King David) calls Jesus the "fruit of his loins, according to the flesh".

My personal definition of this statement would be that he was the result of a lot of fucking. :D

These entries, along with the male-line geneological lists in Matthew and Luke, make it quite clear that Jesus was of human descent from King David.

IF he was an actual "son of God", he would have no male-line lineage whatsoever.

Not only that, in the New Testament, any time people asked him if he was the Son of God, he always replied the same way, some variant of "That's what YOU say".

All references to him as being the "Son of God" were by other people. In the New Testament, there are 45 statements such as "declared to be", "preached as", "believed to be", or "was called" the "Son Of God".

On the other side of the coin, there are 90 instances where he is called "the son of Man", most of which were Jesus referring to himself.


Then there is the fact that Jesus was not the only "Messiah" who supposedly died and rose again on the third day.

There are numerous others who came before Jesus who were supposedly "born of a virgin", "healed the sick", "raised the dead", etc.

Egyptian God Horus (3,000 B.C.) was born of a virgin on December 25th,
the birth heralded by a star in the East, adored by 3 kings, was a teacher at age 12, baptized and began his ministry at age 30, had 12 disciples who traveled with him, performing miracles like healing the sick and walking on water, was known by many names like The Truth, The Light, God's Anointed Son, The Shepherd, The Lamb Of God, etc., and then after being betrayed by Typhon, he was crucified, was dead for 3 days and then was resurrected.

Other "gods" or "messiahs" with identical attributes include the Greek God Attis (1,200 B.C.) who was born of a virgin on Dec. 25th, was crucified, then resurrected after 3 days.

Krishna (India 900 B.C.) was born of a virgin with a star in the east, performed miracles and was resurrected

Greek God Dionysus (500 B.C.) was born of a virgin on December 25th, was a traveling teacher who performed miracles like turning water into wine, was called the "King of Kings", and when he died he was resurrected.

Persian named Mithra (1,200 B.C.) was born of a virgin on December 25th, had 12 disciples, performed miracles, and when he died he was dead for only 3 days and then resurrected.

And these are only a few of those "messiahs" or gods who had these same attributes.

3. Jesus's Parents And The Virgin Birth

I have often said that if God actually wrote the Ten Commandments, he had no intention of keeping them himself. If he said "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery", he most surely still fucked Mary, or sent one of his minions to fuck her on his behalf. I wonder what Joseph thought of that?

**knock knock knock**

"WHO IS IT?"
"I am an angel of The Lord".
"WHAT DO YOU WANT? DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS???"
"I am here to fuck your wife."
"Oh. Come on in!"

Uh...sure....right. Only a moron would believe such a scenario.

Joseph was never called a "carpenter" back in the day. He was refered to in the original Aramaic by the term naggar, which means "craftsman", or someone who worked with their hands. Some experts say that would most likely define someone as a scholar or master.

Then there is Mary, and the mis-translation of what she was. The original Semitic word that described her was almah, which meant "young woman". The Semitic word for physical virginity was bethulah.

In Latin, the word virgo simply meant "unmarried", and the Latin phrase meaning a physical virgin was virgo intacta.

What is truly stupid is the Catholic tradition that she was a virgin forever.
Luke 2:27 clearly states Mary & Joseph were his parents. And all four of the Gospels mention the fact he was not an only child. The most specific of these instances being Mark 6:3 - which also clearly states Mary is his mom:

"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?"

Yes, Mary liked to fuck. Quite obvious, really. :D

There are other documents from back then which also mention Jesus's sisters by name, like the Protevangelion of James, in the Gospel of Philip, and in the Church's Apolistic Constitution.
In the Panarion and the Ancoratus of Epiphanius they are mentioned as Mary, Salome, and Anna.
Mary & Salome appear in Mark 15:47, while Mary & Joanna appear in Luke 24:10.

Jesus's sister Mary (known popularly as Mary Jacob) accompanied Mary Magdelene to Gaul (modern day France) in 44 A.D., according to The Acts Of Magdelene and the ancient MS History Of England which are in the Vatican Archives.


So anyway, when we talk about scams, this one takes the cake. Almost 2,000 years of utter bullshit, genocide on a massive scale (look up the Albigensian Crusade, for example), misery, suffering, death, and the extraction of trillions of dollars from peasants and common people who could not afford to give anything at all, all based on LIES.

I can get into Christmas as a sort of "End Of The Year" thing, where one takes a breather to hang out with friends and family and celebrate SURVIVING ANOTHER YEAR, but it is asshats like the Catholic Church, Jerry Falwell, Oral Sex Roberts, and the thousands of small-time crooks and hoodlums trying to steal money from everyone in the name of THE LORD-DUH! that disgust me.

Disclaimer: The above reflects the opinions of the author and even possibly Satan, and does not reflect the opinions of sheep or the management of rotharmy.com. it's parent companies and/or subsidiaries.

If you wanna believe in Santa Clause, or Jebus, or the Toof Fairy, be my guest. Not all Christians are bad. Just seems to me the ones in power are scum of the highest magnitude.

Merry Christmas everyone.

You may all begin your arguments, kicking and screaming about blasphemy, Jebus, Satan, God, or Ceiling and Basement Cat below.

:D

Nitro Express
12-18-2009, 05:44 AM
Someone also mad Jesus the goat and the lamb of Yom Kipper. The lamb of course was the sacrifice for sin and the goat was loaded up with burdons and driven off into the desert. Some historians say much of the Jewish temple traditions actually came from Babylon or Egypt. I think Jesus was a popular person teaching common sense ethics and pointing out the hypocracy and stupidity of the Jewish temple system which was exploiting his people. Jesus was trying to bring people together instead of having religious, race, and cultural difference divide everybody.

Seshmeister
12-18-2009, 07:55 AM
I have often said that if God actually wrote the Ten Commandments, he had no intention of keeping them himself. If he said "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery", he most surely still fucked Mary, or sent one of his minions to fuck her on his behalf. I wonder what Joseph thought of that?


It's actually even worse than that since the holy trinity means the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one.

It's basically what you might think of as the Back To The Future scenario except Biff doesn't interrupt them in the car...

More likely is that the bunch of bronze age sheepherders who came up with all this nonsense didn't really think it through causing the theologians over the centuries to then spend their pointless lives trying to make sense of the senseless.

Seshmeister
12-18-2009, 08:01 AM
At Easter we can have a thread about how Jesus death absolutely and historically could not have happened the way it is claimed now.

This is the thing with the Jesus story, take away the nativity and the crucifixian and what are you left with?

The amazing thing is that if you listen to a really senior expert theologian like the current Archbishop of Cantebury he will agree that the nativity story is not factual and did not happen the way it is usually described.

They just don't mention that too much to the sheep in case it worries them...

Sensible Shoes
12-18-2009, 08:16 AM
I'm not disputing your premise, but there's a problem with debunking the entire story using the document created solely to support it.

Seshmeister
12-18-2009, 08:27 AM
Not when it is the only document.

In fact that makes the case against even stronger.

ZahZoo
12-18-2009, 08:48 AM
Well that solves that... I think the whole contents of the bible can be refuted and explained away as tribal nonsense and evolved story telling... some events can even be explained through science and tied to actual weather and geological events.

The tough part comes in... ok... maybe all this wasn't some magical god thing and was just folklore gone wild. Problem is we've got 2 milenia of history built on this stuff that can't be instantly changed through an expansion of knowledge...

Where do we go from here and how do you manage to keep the flocks of sheep in check if you were to dismantle most of the fundamental beliefs and social infrastructure of the last 2-3000 years..?

Seshmeister
12-18-2009, 08:57 AM
If a lot of scientists are right we may be the last generation in the West to die or at least die of old age.

If it hadn't been for the superstitions of GW Bush we wouldn't have lost a few years there of US genetic research. It's quite likely GW has directly caused the earlier death of regular posters at this website.

That's why it's important to keep fighting the crazy superstitions or at least the people that take them too seriously.

Seshmeister
12-18-2009, 08:58 AM
Actually my last post didn't really apply to you Zahzoo I think at your age you were fucked either way... :)

Hardrock69
12-18-2009, 09:27 AM
Truth be told, there is much historical accuracy in the Bible.

But most people cannot separate fact from fiction, certainly after 2,000 years of strong-arming by the Catholic Church (you believe us or we burn you at the stake).

thome
12-18-2009, 09:44 AM
When you are wrakked with pain and dying on the field of woe...

When you reach the last of your ability to stand...

When you feel so lost and unable to push on for one more step...

When you finally see that everything you can possibly do still falls short of what you need to do...

Every one of you superior feeling gods will find yourself on your knees screaming and crying for someone to help you ....scream into the emptiness of your own delusion...

Then when you find yourself safe and calm you will forget what gave you the ability to see the way thru.

Perhaps you cannot see that that is all you are forgiven for. Perhaps that is the greatest sin of all.

Not realizing your ability to forget, is the gift that is forgiven.

You want to condem the Bible and the men and women who contributed to it yet you seem to want to explain how you feel, without ever wondering what has given the writers the need to want to understand .
\
Explaining away the beliefs of others is just another belief and you still don't get it.

Pick a side and stick with it.

kwame k
12-18-2009, 10:06 AM
When you are wrakked with pain and dying on the field of woe...

Isn't that field of woe the field between your trailer and the AM PM? Must be a bitch getting there huffed out of your mind and soaked to the gills with PBR.


When you reach the last of your ability to stand...

Isn't that when you know you've huffed enough glue, Gnome?


When you feel so lost and unable to push on for one more step...

Isn't that when you pass out on the trailer floor just shy of making it to the fridge:)

thome
12-18-2009, 10:14 AM
Isn't that field of woe the field between your trailer and the AM PM? Must be a bitch getting there huffed out of your mind and soaked to the gills with PBR.
Isn't that when you know you've huffed enough glue, Gnome?
Isn't that when you pass out on the trailer floor just shy of making it to the fridge:)


Perhaps, you should have posted this in the -Dear Lounge Thread- this bullSh!t you wrote, is just the same -Dumbsh!t Lounge- writes then blames me for wrec=Kingthome, the thread.

A little, spititual=levity................. is "ok" with me. Though.

I'm just saying.

I am. Your own, personal.. Jesus.;)

kwame k
12-18-2009, 10:17 AM
Not trying to derail this thread and I'm glad you took the post in the spirit it was intended.....a joke:)

Great song, BTW!

sadaist
12-18-2009, 10:18 AM
Merry Christmas Hardrock. And everyone else here.

:wreath: :xmasunwrap2:

kwame k
12-18-2009, 10:20 AM
Merry Christmas Hardrock. And everyone else here.

:wreath: :xmasunwrap2:
Back at ya, Saddie......health and happiness to you and yours!

chefcraig
12-18-2009, 10:41 AM
If anyone is curious about those pesky "missing years" of Jesus' life that the Bible rather inconveniently leaves out, I'd highly recommend Christopher Moore's "Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal". It is insightful, blasphemous and highly entertaining. Best of all, there are ninjas.

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/7781/moorelambgifted.jpg (http://img704.imageshack.us/i/moorelambgifted.jpg/)

thome
12-18-2009, 10:43 AM
....and Happy Holidays to the overtly sensative non-believers.

'Cause, you gotta belive in something....

thome
12-18-2009, 10:46 AM
If anyone is curious about those pesky "missing years" of Jesus' life that the Bible rather inconveniently leaves out, I'd highly recommend Christopher Moore's "Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal". It is insightful, blasphemous and highly entertaining. Best of all, there are ninjas.


because I refuse to spank or tickle

5

for you, lol...

Hardrock69
12-18-2009, 10:47 AM
....and Happy Holidays to the overtly sensative non-believers.

'Cause, you gotta belive in something....

True. They do have to be-live in something. :)

thome
12-18-2009, 10:48 AM
True. They do have to be-live in something. :)


Thar be truths in them thar wurds.

5's for everybody

kwame k
12-18-2009, 11:57 AM
Alright, here's some other questions about Christ's birth date......


And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. Luke 2:8
Why were the Shepherds out tending their flocks in the middle of winter? Wasn't it common to bring in the flock for the winter?


19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. Matthew 24:19, 20
Even Matthew takes time to mention that traveling in winter fucking sucks.

Why did Joseph and Mary travel to Jerusalem in the first place?
Would a Roman administrator require registration involving travel during the season when Judea was dangerous to travel in? Wouldn't he wait until a more opportune time? You can't pay your taxes if you're dead on the trail.

Since the winter solace is on December 21st all of these cults/religions put the rebirth/resurrection near that date. Which makes sense if you think about it. These people lived and starved by the harvest. The shortest day of the year followed by the lengthening of days. The rebirth of the sun! The winter solace was so important to all cultures that followed the movement of the stars/planets. It reaffirmed that spring would come and another planting season could begin.

So any hero or Messiah who you are creating, it makes sense that you have his birth or resurrection during the rebirth of the Sun.

Hardrock69
12-18-2009, 12:32 PM
There is also the theory by a lot of peeps that the "Eastern Star" was Sirius, and the three stars in the belt of Orion were called "The Three Wise Men" in ancient times, and if you line them up on Dec. 25th, they point directly to where the Sun rises on that day.

ZahZoo
12-18-2009, 03:00 PM
Actually my last post didn't really apply to you Zahzoo I think at your age you were fucked either way... :)

I'll probably outlive y'all... and piss on your graves!! :biggrin:

kwame k
12-18-2009, 04:02 PM
I'll probably outlive y'all... and piss on your graves!! :biggrin:

Well, finally someone here has the Christmas Spirit:santahat:

Sensible Shoes
12-18-2009, 04:47 PM
Um, Winter in the Middle East is kinda not cold hon.


Alright, here's some other questions about Christ's birth date......


Why were the Shepherds out tending their flocks in the middle of winter? Wasn't it common to bring in the flock for the winter?


Even Matthew takes time to mention that traveling in winter fucking sucks.

Why did Joseph and Mary travel to Jerusalem in the first place?
Would a Roman administrator require registration involving travel during the season when Judea was dangerous to travel in? Wouldn't he wait until a more opportune time? You can't pay your taxes if you're dead on the trail.

Since the winter solace is on December 21st all of these cults/religions put the rebirth/resurrection near that date. Which makes sense if you think about it. These people lived and starved by the harvest. The shortest day of the year followed by the lengthening of days. The rebirth of the sun! The winter solace was so important to all cultures that followed the movement of the stars/planets. It reaffirmed that spring would come and another planting season could begin.

So any hero or Messiah who you are creating, it makes sense that you have his birth or resurrection during the rebirth of the Sun.

Sensible Shoes
12-18-2009, 04:49 PM
Not when it is the only document.

In fact that makes the case against even stronger.

It isn't the only document. There are MANY other ways to refute the Christmas story other than the Bible itself. Many were mentioned later in this thread.

I encourage the debunking process - and think that Christmas does much better as a secular holiday.

kwame k
12-18-2009, 04:51 PM
Um, Winter in the Middle East is kinda not cold hon.

Not according to Matthew......

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 05:02 PM
The fact that you idiots go to great lenghts to prove that the word of God wrong, is proof (to me) that you really want to believe...

My only suggestion is that you trust Him and His word...


:elvis:

Hardrock69
12-18-2009, 05:03 PM
Aside from all the grown up reality stuff about Christmas, it is certainly worth it to see kids faces on Christmas morning.

Or, for instance, to see photos of PanaMatt on Santa's knee! ;)

No, I am not a total humbug. :D

Shaun Ponsonby
12-18-2009, 05:10 PM
'Cause, you gotta belive in something....

Thats true...there's an old academic quote, "When people stop believeing in God, they don't believe in nothing".

You could argue that the rise in things like celebrity culture and the like is because people are looking for their own personal "idols" in absence of religion.

The fact that they are choosing Paris Hilton is pretty worrying. At least choose someone like Lemmy.

Sensible Shoes
12-18-2009, 05:11 PM
The fact that you idiots go to great lenghts to prove that the word of God wrong, is proof (to me) that you really want to believe...

My only suggestion is that you trust Him and His word...


:elvis:

You know, God gave us these brains and expects us to use them. We will never come up with proof one way or the other, so it comes down to if you choose to believe - or not! Healthy minds, God doesn't have any problem with that. That's why there are Jesuits!

There's only one way to find out if it's all true or not - to die.

kwame k
12-18-2009, 05:12 PM
Aside from all the grown up reality stuff about Christmas, it is certainly worth it to see kids faces on Christmas morning.

Or, for instance, to see photos of PanaMatt on Santa's knee! ;)

No, I am not a total humbug. :D
Surprisingly neither am I...we're having an ugly sweater/Christmas neighborhood keg party tonight. Have my Christmas station all set-up on Pandora. Bought/buying presents for my family. I love Christmas! Love getting together with friends and family and sharing.

Christ has nothing to do with our modern Christmas, period. Except for those people who make the 3 times a year pilgrimage to church.

I would never ruin a kids Christmas with this shit we are debating. I've always been interested in the back story or history of how our modern traditions and religion evolved. This to me has nothing to do with faith and is more academic than anything else.

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 05:15 PM
Shoes, how can you say God doesn't have a problem with this or that ??

Golden AWe
12-18-2009, 05:24 PM
Plus even the christian theology (did I spell that right?) people in the universities, who study the Bible, and are men in faith, admit and know that the supposed date of the "historical" Jesus's birth was NOT around Christmas...it was not even in December, but March or April...like many other matters in the Bible, it was decided and moved to Christmas when the romans started becoming christians.

Golden AWe
12-18-2009, 05:24 PM
Shoes, how can you say God doesn't have a problem with this or that ??

I bet 100 bucks God has a problem with the Dump Meisters too...

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 05:26 PM
Haha... ;)

Sensible Shoes
12-18-2009, 05:38 PM
Shoes, how can you say God doesn't have a problem with this or that ??

Because if you believe that we were created by God, and therefore God gave us brains, then God would be pleased that the brains worked. I cannot say that God approves of HOW we use them, simply that we DO. Bout that simple.

Now are you going to tell me that my belief system is flawed because God might disapprove of us using our brains?

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 05:41 PM
Maybe...

God give's us the ability and the free will to do the right thing...

Shaun Ponsonby
12-18-2009, 05:44 PM
Plus even the christian theology (did I spell that right?) people in the universities, who study the Bible, and are men in faith, admit and know that the supposed date of the "historical" Jesus's birth was NOT around Christmas...it was not even in December, but March or April...like many other matters in the Bible, it was decided and moved to Christmas when the romans started becoming christians.

Jesus: born in the middle of summer in the middle of the desert.

Christmas cards feature: snowmen

Nitro Express
12-18-2009, 05:52 PM
When I was a kid all I cared about was getting out of school for two weeks and getting a bunch of presents. Now I just want to get loaded on scotch and champaign, do some skiing, ride the snowmobile around, sit in the hot tub, and get laid.

Sensible Shoes
12-18-2009, 05:53 PM
Maybe...

God give's us the ability and the free will to do the right thing...

Exactly my point.

Nitro Express
12-18-2009, 05:54 PM
Jackson Hole is a hoot on New Years. All ski resort towns are. It get's pretty wild. That's really the fun for me now.

Nitro Express
12-18-2009, 05:54 PM
We are gods.

Nitro Express
12-18-2009, 05:56 PM
If you are waiting around for someone to save you, then good fucking luck. There are only universal laws and the creation. Where we exist in it is up to us.

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 05:59 PM
We are gods.

No, we are not...

Shaun Ponsonby
12-18-2009, 06:01 PM
No, we are not...

Actually, there is a theory that God is in fact simply the human race.

thome
12-18-2009, 06:01 PM
Christmas is the day we celebrate the birth of Christ.

So.... who said to you. that it was his birthday.

are you cats really in your 30's and stuff..?

We, as in the people that; I wasn't there at the time, chose mid winter because it is the harshest time of year and the ability to come together in peace and harmony, will insure the survival in desperate fukkin times.

Before Kwakkie Kay comes back and sais christmas was invented in 1930 and ...who is desperate in thier city flat wearing Gucci loafers.

It is the traditional time of great loss due to the seasons of the earth are less abundant.People did this even when Cave Dude was rool'n the planet. Indians, Chinese, Siberians, who were without the Gucci shoes did it long before Bing sang the tune.

If you want to pray and celebrate together and share gifts to the young and old to brighten thier hopes for a future spring and the resurection of life .

I will leave the rest up to you to, to peace together.

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 06:04 PM
Actually, there is a theory that God is in fact simply the human race.

That is really silly...

There is a man-made theory about EVERYTHING!

kwame k
12-18-2009, 06:04 PM
I agree, AWe. Just because things are proven to be different shouldn't change whether or not you have faith. By definition faith is believing in the absence of proof.

These were stories told...morality tales to help explain how people should live together. Some have been proven accurate and somethings have been shown that the author took poetic license. Somethings get glossed over as time goes by and we progress. Even the most adherent Biblical person doesn't go out and sacrifice animals anymore. We evolve and so does religion.

Still doesn't change the fact that "Thou Shall not kill" is a pretty good commandment, if you're going to live around a large group of people.

Shaun Ponsonby
12-18-2009, 06:05 PM
That is really silly...



Yea, its more sensible to put all your faith in an unprovable man in the sky.

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 06:08 PM
No, but he does disapprove of us doing the wrong thing...

Shaun Ponsonby
12-18-2009, 06:10 PM
No, but he does disapprove of us doing the wrong thing...

Oh, that classic Christian wit!


For the record, I have nothing against God (if he exists) and religious people (other than the ones who are up their own arse).

kwame k
12-18-2009, 06:15 PM
No, but he does disapprove of us doing the wrong thing...

Depending on who's interpretation of the Bible you go by. The worst thing about the Bible or maybe the greatest thing is you can slant the Bible to justify just about anything. Good or bad.

There's so much ambiguity in the stories that people for 1000's of years have misused passages to further their agenda.

kwame k
12-18-2009, 06:16 PM
Oh, that classic Christian wit!


For the record, I have nothing against God (if he exists) and religious people (other than the ones who are up their own arse).

That's it...don't expect to have religious freedom for yourself and condemn other people who believe differently or not at all from you.

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 06:18 PM
Depending on who's interpretation of the Bible you go by. The worst thing about the Bible or maybe the greatest thing is you can slant the Bible to justify just about anything. Good or bad.

There's so much ambiguity in the stories that people for 1000's of years have misused passages to further their agenda.

No dude...

Shaun Ponsonby
12-18-2009, 06:19 PM
No dude...

Yes, actually...

As a modern example, you just have to look at Fred Phelps.

ace diamond
12-18-2009, 06:21 PM
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk267/conjurman/satan%20stuff/336554-Christianity1.jpg
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk267/conjurman/satan%20stuff/bible.jpg
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk267/conjurman/satan%20stuff/2nrn0hg.jpg
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk267/conjurman/satan%20stuff/105675-JESUSCHRIST.jpg
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk267/conjurman/satan%20stuff/freedom-from-religion.jpg

kwame k
12-18-2009, 06:25 PM
Knock it off Vinnie Vermin.....you've already over-used that shit in another thread.

thome
12-18-2009, 06:25 PM
Yes, actually...

As a modern example, you just have to look at Fred Phelps.

There have been many misguided souls who have commited crimes in the name of booze to.

And who except the booze addled can swear about, "the spirit told me too."

*thome sets out a round of cyber beers*

There are assholes who pick up titles every day.

Don't blame the title .

Blame the fools who line up to get fleeced.

Shaun Ponsonby
12-18-2009, 06:27 PM
Don't blame the title .

Blame the fools who line up to get fleeced.

Go back and read through it all again and you'll see no-one was blaming "the title".

We're talking about people's interpretations.

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 06:28 PM
The flesh causes us to go down the wrong path...

kwame k
12-18-2009, 06:28 PM
No dude...

You're telling me in the history of religion, NO ONE has ever misused the Bible to further their own twisted agenda?

So David Koresh was the second coming of Christ.....damn missed Jesus again.

Shaun Ponsonby
12-18-2009, 06:29 PM
The flesh causes us to go down the wrong path...

Yes...we're talking about interpretations.

kwame k
12-18-2009, 06:30 PM
The flesh causes us to go down the wrong path...

You can say that again! Man, some of the shit I did when I was younger to get laid.....Phew!

thome
12-18-2009, 06:31 PM
C'mon Ace everyone know Satan exists, it is the existance of God that is hard to cognitize.

Fight the hard fight, fukk the simple sh!t.

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 06:31 PM
Ok then, learn fron it and live...

ace diamond
12-18-2009, 06:31 PM
Knock it off Vinnie Vermin.....you've already over-used that shit in another thread.
well, it is applicable here as it was there.

thome
12-18-2009, 06:34 PM
You're telling me in the history of religion, NO ONE has ever misused the Bible to further their own twisted agenda?


You should have said that in the mirror...allthough twisted is a bit harsh for me to imply back towards you.

We are all doing it right now even the ones who think they can congigate it.

no harsh:biggrin:

kwame k
12-18-2009, 06:35 PM
well, it is applicable here as it was there.

Not half a fucking page of that stupid shit.....pick one make your point and move on.

Jesus Christ
12-18-2009, 06:37 PM
We are gods.

Well, I am at least. :cool:

kwame k
12-18-2009, 06:39 PM
You should have said that in the mirror...allthough twisted is a bit harsh for me to imply back towards you.

We are all doing it right now even the ones who think they can congigate it.

no harsh:biggrin:

Never said I didn't have my own interpretation of the Bible....When have I ever said mine is the only or the right one.

kwame k
12-18-2009, 06:40 PM
Well, I am at least. :cool:

Thank-you Jesus, Thank-you Lord...if I may quote a Stones song.

Sensible Shoes
12-18-2009, 06:46 PM
Ah, y'know, I usually love to get into this debate here at this time of year. But my heart's not in it this time. Because of the state of the world, and the state of my own life, I'm in the spirit to let people believe in the tooth fairy if it gets them through hard times.

Elvis, normally I would have a great time sparring with you - I was educated by the bastard children of the catholic church - they lived to stir shit amongst the adamant believers as an exercise in testing faith. They would question EVERYTHING in the firm belief that all the debunking and analysis would eventually lead people back to faith because philosophically, there was no other option. In the meantime, they did their damndest to make the journey as difficult as humanly possible. In their eyes, nothing about faith is simple - and there was no value to it unless you'd eliminated all the other possibilities. The fact that they normally did this while pleasantly stewed in the communion wine did nothing to lessen the mental exercise.

While it used to be fun, it just makes me tired these days. Most of the disgruntled-ness I see here is about the man-made church and what it's done to individuals (sheep?) over the years. I get the idea by your location that the Catholic church is probably not on your good list either. Bottom line, it just doesn't matter, people want to search for truth. If all things are really created by God, then the search is good. If you think their search is bad, then just hang onto your own faith, and acknowledge that what goes on here doesn't lessen what you believe. And you do not know where anybody else's search will ultimately take them.

You've been kind to me. So I choose to respect what you believe as well as your right to evangelize. Merry Christmas.

thome
12-18-2009, 06:47 PM
Never said I didn't have my own interpretation of the Bible....When have I ever said mine is the only or the right one.

ARE YOU SAYING MINE ISN'T!!!

This is how countries end up at war, your last quote and my answer.

Here is how it happens a the bar.

then we talk about politics, then sports, then the fight breaks out and I wake up in jail............... again.

kwame k
12-18-2009, 06:52 PM
So we're going to war, Gnome? I almost thought we were agreeing with each other...oh well:war:

kwame k
12-18-2009, 07:07 PM
Ah, y'know, I usually love to get into this debate here at this time of year. But my heart's not in it this time. Because of the state of the world, and the state of my own life, I'm in the spirit to let people believe in the tooth fairy if it gets them through hard times.

If I may butt in.
Sorry things are so rough for you, Shoes...here's to a better 2010. I went through my funk/divorce last summer and I am over it and stronger because of it.

So let's have an uplifting song for ya.....

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Sensible Shoes
12-18-2009, 07:20 PM
LOL. Thank you Kwame.

chefcraig
12-18-2009, 07:20 PM
You're telling me in the history of religion, NO ONE has ever misused the Bible to further their own twisted agenda?


Pedro: Bats, they are sick. I cannot hit curve-ball. Straight-ball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. I ask Jobu to come, take fear from bats. I offer him cigar, rum. He will come.
Eddie: You know you might think about taking Jesus Christ as your savior instead of fooling around with all this stuff.
Pedro: Ah, Jesus [pronounced hey-SOOS], I like him very much, but he no help with curve-ball.
Eddie: You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curve-ball?

kwame k
12-18-2009, 07:34 PM
Major League with Charlie Sheen, right.

kwame k
12-18-2009, 07:41 PM
LOL. Thank you Kwame.

Since we're on a religious rant...there is a great book that is conversations with the Dalai Lama Amazon.com: Healing Emotions: Conversations with the Dalai Lama on Mindfulness, Emotions, and Health (9781590300107): Daniel Goleman: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Emotions-Conversations-Mindfulness-Health/dp/1590300106/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261182936&sr=8-1)

What really stood out in this book was there is no perfect life...
that's just a bunch of bullshit made up by advertising guys to sell you shit you don't want or need(that's my line, BTW).

We all want everything to be perfect and there is no such thing. When going through hard times, remember in the grand scheme of your life it is but a small amount of time and we tend to blow things way out of proportion. Jobs come and go, nice things come and go, relationships come and go but things never stay the same forever.....sounds gay but it helped me during my darkest hours.

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 07:42 PM
Elvis, normally I would have a great time sparring with you - I was educated by the bastard children of the catholic church - they lived to stir shit amongst the adamant believers as an exercise in testing faith. They would question EVERYTHING in the firm belief that all the debunking and analysis would eventually lead people back to faith because philosophically, there was no other option. In the meantime, they did their damndest to make the journey as difficult as humanly possible. In their eyes, nothing about faith is simple - and there was no value to it unless you'd eliminated all the other possibilities. The fact that they normally did this while pleasantly stewed in the communion wine did nothing to lessen the mental exercise.



Catholicism (as I understand it) is not the right path. It leads to being hurt...

The right path is a 24/7 relationship with God. That is the only thing available...


:elvis:

Jesus Christ
12-18-2009, 08:05 PM
Catholicism (as I understand it) is not the right path. It leads to being hurt...

The right path is a 24/7 relationship with God. That is the only thing available...


:elvis:

Gregory, why are ye always trying to divide My children against each other?

Verily I say unto you that ALL churches of today are corrupt and there is not one that is perfect, and does not value the doctrines of man over My teachings.

In Heaven there is no Catholic and no Protestant. No Jew and Gentile. No Methodist or Mormon. These denominations are the creations of man, not of Me or My Dad.

Live thy life according to My teachings and care ye not about which building someone spends their Sabbath morning in.

And speaking of the Sabbath, I must be going now as the sun hath set.

Peace be with you, My children.

Sensible Shoes
12-18-2009, 08:12 PM
Catholicism (as I understand it) is not the right path. It leads to being hurt...

The right path is a 24/7 relationship with God. That is the only thing available...


:elvis:

What you describe does not have a label. If you have it, you know it. If you don't, you know that too.

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 08:14 PM
I never said it has a label...

And FORD, you can kss my ass...

kwame k
12-18-2009, 08:16 PM
I never said it has a label...

And FORD, you can kss my ass...

FORD's not even posting dude....geez.

Sensible Shoes
12-18-2009, 08:19 PM
I'm not fighting with you! I'm agreeing with you!

kwame k
12-18-2009, 08:20 PM
Same difference, Shoes;)

ELVIS
12-18-2009, 08:21 PM
I'm not fighting with you! I'm agreeing with you!

Good!

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:elvis:

ace diamond
12-18-2009, 09:33 PM
Gregory, why are ye always trying to divide My children against each other?

Verily I say unto you that ALL churches of today are corrupt and there is not one that is perfect, and does not value the doctrines of man over My teachings.

In Heaven there is no Catholic and no Protestant. No Jew and Gentile. No Methodist or Mormon. These denominations are the creations of man, not of Me or My Dad.

Live thy life according to My teachings and care ye not about which building someone spends their Sabbath morning in.

And speaking of the Sabbath, I must be going now as the sun hath set.

Peace be with you, My children.
FUCK YOU-HAIL SATAN.
:biggrin:

Sensible Shoes
12-18-2009, 09:58 PM
Good!

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:elvis:

Now see? Who the hell ELSE here even knows who Harry James is?????

thome
12-18-2009, 10:14 PM
I am kinda a more of a Bob James kinda guy, does that count.

chefcraig
12-18-2009, 10:53 PM
I am kinda a more of a Bob James kinda guy, does that count.

No kidding? A couple of months ago, he put out a pretty decent anthology. Highly recommended for the novice and the real fan.

THE VERY BEST OF BOB JAMES (http://www.bobjames.com/store.php?page=album_bestof)

GO-SPURS-GO
12-18-2009, 11:03 PM
So I choose to respect what you believe as well as your right to evangelize. Merry Christmas.

I know this was directed at ELVIS, but I just wanted to say that I think it was cool of you to say that! :beers8:

Oh.. Merry Christmas to you, too! :xmastree::santahat:

Golden AWe
12-19-2009, 11:28 AM
That is really silly...

There is a man-made theory about EVERYTHING!

The nature is the God, and our only God.

The Nature will always have larger powers than man, and no matter how we try, nature will always be greater than man...we can use it, and can resist it somehow, but we will never be able to control it, totally. And funny thing is the only thing that has UNNATURAL forces and superpowers is the nature.

ZahZoo
12-19-2009, 12:07 PM
That is really silly...

There is a man-made theory about EVERYTHING!

Well that statement just cut right to the bottom line on all elements of the subject matter being discussed here!!

Ally_Kat
12-19-2009, 01:56 PM
At Easter we can have a thread about how Jesus death absolutely and historically could not have happened the way it is claimed now.

This is the thing with the Jesus story, take away the nativity and the crucifixian and what are you left with?

The amazing thing is that if you listen to a really senior expert theologian like the current Archbishop of Cantebury he will agree that the nativity story is not factual and did not happen the way it is usually described.

They just don't mention that too much to the sheep in case it worries them...

I don't want to get into a debate here because we all have strong beliefs and no one's going to convert either side here. However, I just wanted to point out one thing: I have to laugh at the Catholic comments. I know we have a pretty crappy past and I know there's a lot of disagreement about birth control, but when it comes to a lot you guys point out - time, location, etc - the Church brings this up and mentions how the Gospels weren't written to preserve history but for a specific people experiencing specific problems in a specific time. We're not selling a word-by-word translation of the Bible. We sell more the moral of the story with some guidelines that come from them.

We were big bad wolf back in the Middle Ages, but now we have the Baptists and Pentecostals to worry about. They're the ones going on about how dinosaurs didn't exist and men can't have long hair cuz it's the way of the devil.

Nitro Express
12-19-2009, 02:11 PM
Since we're on a religious rant...there is a great book that is conversations with the Dalai Lama Amazon.com: Healing Emotions: Conversations with the Dalai Lama on Mindfulness, Emotions, and Health (9781590300107): Daniel Goleman: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Emotions-Conversations-Mindfulness-Health/dp/1590300106/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261182936&sr=8-1)

What really stood out in this book was there is no perfect life...
that's just a bunch of bullshit made up by advertising guys to sell you shit you don't want or need(that's my line, BTW).

We all want everything to be perfect and there is no such thing. When going through hard times, remember in the grand scheme of your life it is but a small amount of time and we tend to blow things way out of proportion. Jobs come and go, nice things come and go, relationships come and go but things never stay the same forever.....sounds gay but it helped me during my darkest hours.

Yup. You can't control the world but you can control your own attitude and amazingly Jesus was right when he said what you think you become. If you are negative your life will become negative and if you are positive and act on your positive thinking, amazingly your life will turn around.

The world is controlled by a small minority of powerful people who use religion, the media, politicians, banks, and corporations to control us. People who have no self-esteem seem to be easy to manipulate. One reason powerful people don't want us to be self-fulfilled. They want us on their drugs, addicted to their entertainment, and voting and doing things because the status quo demands we do. Political parties, fashion, trends, religions for the most part are all the same game of image control.

Nitro Express
12-19-2009, 02:16 PM
No, we are not...

We all are creators and whether it be bad or good is up to us. We have way more power than we think and that is what those who control others don't want us to figure out. So let's invent some father figure in the sky who we can cry to and who will fix things for us. All we have to do is believe. It's Santa Clause for adults and it puts us all to sleep while fear and shame are used to control us. God is a living free man. Bob Marley had it right.

Nitro Express
12-19-2009, 02:17 PM
Actually, there is a theory that God is in fact simply the human race.

God is creation and we are part of it as is everything else. The native Americans have it right.

Nitro Express
12-19-2009, 02:18 PM
Everyone has God inside of them. What they do with it is up to them.

Nitro Express
12-19-2009, 02:22 PM
Jesus taught if we were aware of our abilities and had a mustard seed of faith, we could perform the same miracles he did. I believe this was his message and the Jews he was trying to teach just turned him into the sacrificial lamb of Yom Kippur. If you really read what Jesus was teacher there was no chosen people and his main enemy was the church itself. What Christians are is what Jesus was trying to teach people from becoming. He saw all races and people as equal and love not dogma was his teaching. Jesus was hijacked.

Sensible Shoes
12-19-2009, 02:27 PM
I"ve kind of believed that over the years. Jesus was doing one thing and his followers turned it into something quite different after his death. Hey, you've got 12 guys, not all terribly educated, some are going to "get it" and stick to the message and others are likely to play it for all the money they can milk out of it. I think both things survived. If they hadn't, even Sesh wouldn't be bothering to be so angry. For me, it comes down to "listen to the message, screw the details."

FORD
12-19-2009, 03:00 PM
God is creation and we are part of it as is everything else. The native Americans have it right.

Well, SOME of the Native Americans do anyway. Our resident self proclaimed Apache.... not so much. :biggrin:

Hardrock69
12-19-2009, 04:40 PM
Well, I am at least. :cool:

Uh, no. You are a pile of bones somewhere in the Middle East.

Hardrock69
12-19-2009, 04:43 PM
Now see? Who the hell ELSE here even knows who Harry James is?????

Uh YES! ;)

GAR
12-19-2009, 04:48 PM
Well, SOME of the Native Americans do anyway. Our resident self proclaimed Apache.... not so much. :biggrin:

Ok so according to you, Jesus died for nothing?

Hardrock69
12-19-2009, 05:04 PM
I"ve kind of believed that over the years. Jesus was doing one thing and his followers turned it into something quite different after his death.


There is a term in the history of early Christianity: Desposyni

It is used ONLY to describe members of Jesus's own family, and their descendants. In the first 100 years after the death of Jesus, there were Imperial Decrees issued by several different emprerors in Rome that anyone who was a member of Jesus's family was to be put to death.

We can assume that this was the Roman view that Jesus was a rebel who threatened the stability of Roman control over the Middle East.

Aside from that, those who were in the process of creating the New Fairy Tale (New Testament) as a means of creating a religious power-base knew that the reality of Jesus's life and death was much different from the story-tale they were promulgating, and saw the truth (which was known by members of Jesus's family like Mary Magdelene and James, the Joseph of Armithea) as a threat to their emerging power grab. Which was why they (Mary Magdelene and James) fled to Gaul in the later part of the First Century A.D.

By the way, James, Jesus's brother, was the Joseph. Joseph was not a proper name, but a title. Arimathea was a describing title as well as Magdalene and other titles from the New Testament.

It points to a very high title.

As like Matthew Annas carried the priestly title of 'Levi of Alfaeus', Joseph was called Joseph of Arimathea.

Joseph was not called James as he was called by his title (like Matthew wasn't called Levi), and Arimathea comes from the Hebrew words Ha Ram or Ha Rama (meaning 'from the height') and the Greek word Theo (pointing to 'God' or 'Godly').

If you put it together you'll get Ha Rama Theo which means 'The Highest of God', and as a personal title 'Divine Highness'.

Jesus was the heir in the line of David. He was 'the David', like John the Baptist was 'the Zadok'. The title of Joseph meant that he was next in the line of the throne. When a dynastic son from the house of Judah, no matter his real name, became 'the David' (the king), the oldest son after became the (crown-prince) Jospeh.

But if there wasn't a son of the king during the coronation (or the son hadn't reached the age of 16 yet), the oldest brother of 'the David' gets the Jospeh title. And if the son did reach the age of 16 he gave the title 'back' to the son.
In this case James (the oldest of Jesus' 3 younger brothers) was named Joseph (the Hebrew is Josef...meaning 'he will add').

He was the Jospeh Ha Rama Theo, which formed into Joseph of Arimathea.

GAR
12-19-2009, 05:31 PM
You just brought a pile of tangled extension cords expecting to reach an unknown socket and making no sense.

I know some of these points and references, but it's still a waste of time to untangle and sort out your mess because once resolved, you'll find another one like this.

Seshmeister
12-20-2009, 11:24 PM
There is a term in the history of early Christianity: Desposyni

It is used ONLY to describe members of Jesus's own family, and their descendants. In the first 100 years after the death of Jesus, there were Imperial Decrees issued by several different emprerors in Rome that anyone who was a member of Jesus's family was to be put to death.


Where did you read that?

Seshmeister
12-20-2009, 11:35 PM
Jesus was the heir in the line of David. He was 'the David', like John the Baptist was 'the Zadok'. The title of Joseph meant that he was next in the line of the throne. When a dynastic son from the house of Judah, no matter his real name, became 'the David' (the king), the oldest son after became the (crown-prince) Jospeh.


You are basing this on the bible.

In the bible it's pretty obvious they try to make up a lineage back to David in order to fit with the Jewish prophecies to give their guy legitimacy just like the way the silly story about there being a census is used to get them to Bethlehem.

There are some big problems with that, the two really obvious ones that the lineage you are claiming based on the unsubstantiated writings in the book don't even agree with each other.

Compare the lists.


Luke Chapter 3

The Genealogy of Jesus
Mt. 1.1-17
23 ¶ And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
25 which was the son of Mattathi'as, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Nahum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nag'gai,
26 which was the son of Ma'ath, which was the son of Mattathi'as, which was the son of Sem'e-i, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Judah,
27 which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zerub'babel, which was the son of She-al'ti-el, which was the son of Neri,
28 which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmo'dam, which was the son of Er,
29 which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eli-e'zer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
30 which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Judah, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eli'akim,
31 which was the son of Me'le-a, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mat'tatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
32 which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Boaz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Nahshon,
33 which was the son of Ammin'adab, which was the son of Ram, which was the son of Hezron, which was the son of Pharez, which was the son of Judah,
34 which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Terah, which was the son of Nahor,
35 which was the son of Serug, which was the son of Re'u, which was the son of Peleg, which was the son of Eber, which was the son of Salah,
36 which was the son of Ca-i'nan, which was the son of Arphax'ad, which was the son of Shem, which was the son of Noah, which was the son of Lamech,
37 which was the son of Methu'selah, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Mahal'aleel, which was the son of Ca-i'nan,
38 which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Mathew 1


The Genealogy of Jesus Christ
Lk. 3.23-38
1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2 ¶ Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judah and his brethren;
3 and Judah begat Pharez and Zerah of Tamar; and Pharez begat Hezron; and Hezron begat Ram;
4 and Ram begat Ammin'adab; and Ammin'adab begat Nahshon; and Nahshon begat Salmon;
5 and Salmon begat Boaz of Rachab; and Boaz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
6 and Jesse begat David the king.
¶ And David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Uri'ah;
7 and Solomon begat Rehobo'am; and Rehobo'am begat Abi'jah; and Abi'jah begat Asa;
8 and Asa begat Jehosh'aphat; and Jehosh'aphat begat Jeho'ram; and Jeho'ram begat Uzzi'ah;
9 and Uzzi'ah begat Jotham; and Jotham begat Ahaz; and Ahaz begat Hezeki'ah;
10 and Hezeki'ah begat Manas'seh; and Manas'seh begat Amon; and Amon begat Josi'ah;
11 and Josi'ah begat Jeconi'ah and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon. 2 Kgs. 24.14, 15 · 2 Chr. 36.10 · Jer. 27.20
12 ¶ And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconi'ah begat She-al'ti-el; and She-al'ti-el begat Zerub'babel;
13 and Zerub'babel begat Abi'ud; and Abi'ud begat Eli'akim; and Eli'akim begat Azor;
14 and Azor begat Zadok; and Zadok begat Achim; and Achim begat Eli'ud;
15 and Eli'ud begat Ele-a'zar; and Ele-a'zar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16 and Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 ¶ So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.


Again I'm using the bible to attack the bible but since there are no contemporary reports or history of there even being a Jesus then I have to.

Word of God?

All in all it's a pretty schoolboy error to fail to copy 2 lists to make them the same.

Secondly if Mary was a virgin humped by some ghost then how does Jesus have any lineage except to God or Casper the Friendly ghost or whoever????

Cheers!

:gulp:

Anonymous
12-20-2009, 11:53 PM
Dudes, I really cannot believe that this subject can bring about such heated arguments, nowadays.

I don't believe. Therefore, I really don't give a fuck if you believe or not.

My two year old niece wanted to be baptised, a couple of months ago. Some friend of her was being baptised as well, so naturally, she wanted it too. Trouble is, being two years old, she mixed up baptism with wedding, and since her little friend was getting married, she wanted to get married too. :lol:

It's all church, innit?

So, naturally, if such a thing was to happen, I'd have to be the Godfather, so my opinion on the subject was asked.

"If the little runt wants to be baptised, let's do it. It'll give me an excuse to slip into my Crockett suit, so I'm all for it. Plus, if she becomes a believer, that'll be one less worry in her life, seeing as she already done it. If she doesn't become a believer, well, who gives a fuck about a half a pint of water on the forehead? Not me, not her, not anybody."

Get what I'm saying? If you don't believe, leave it the fuck alone. It's not your job to prove it isn't real.

Otherwise, you'll just be playing their little game. By their rules. You ARE one of them.

Fuck it.

Cheers! :bottle:

ELVIS
12-21-2009, 12:00 AM
Hmmm...

Anonymous
12-21-2009, 12:10 AM
Hmmm...

VEEERY insightful.

I bet if this was someone else's post in main, in a thread about Dave & Eddie releasing anew album under the Van Halen name, the whole thread'd be dumped in a heartbeat.

Fuck you, Elvis.

Cheers! :bottle:

Hardrock69
12-21-2009, 12:40 AM
Yeah I am aware that the lineage's don't agree.
I could have posted a lengthy essay on it, but it is just one more episode where the Bible is shown to have too many contradictions.

And Christians claim it is the Word-DUH of GAWD-UH.

Sure. Sure it is.

And it was GOD who came down to the fucking Earth at the Council of Nicea and forced all the early Church leaders to use ONLY the books that are in the Bible today.

Yeah.

Right.

It has never been a requirement that anyone has to read anything, or believe anything that any other person has told them in order to believe in God.

It is up to everyone as individuals to find their own path.

But Christians would have us believe otherwise.

They say those who do not follow JEEZUSSS-AH will burn in hell.

Well....what about people who have never heard of Jesus?

What about babies? They can't really understand any of that crap, so are they going to go to hell?

What about cats and dogs? And every other living thing that creepeth and shitteth on the earth? Are they going to burn in hell because they do not believe like Christians say they should?

What about alien beings who live in some galaxy on the other end of the Universe? Are they going to burn in Hell because they never heard of JEEZUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS-AH?

Or retards that cannot understand language? What about blind and deaf people?

What about people that live in the Amazon who have never seen a white person? Or any 'civilized' human?

Or people who live in Outer Mongolia who have never even heard of Christianity?

Why should anyone believe in such an irrational pack of lies anyway?

Are people so dependent on what others think that they have to have some kind of crutch to get through their lives? Are religious zealots so stupid they are unable to believe in God without having to eat crackers, drink wine, and get buttfucked by idiots in black robes with a white collar?

No need to try to answer this stuff...it is just a bunch of rhetorical claptrap.

:D

May God Bless every single one of you.

OR ELSE!
:D

ace diamond
12-21-2009, 01:20 AM
Well, SOME of the Native Americans do anyway. Our resident self proclaimed Apache.... not so much. :biggrin:
not all tribes have the same view point on the matter.
the closest thing to a "creator" for us is earth and nature.
Earth and nature have provided for and sustained all life for a very long time.
we respect that deeply and honor it.
that is our way.

different tribes have different ways.
this is true of all cultures, and all peoples from all over the world.

Anonymous
12-21-2009, 01:54 AM
not all tribes have the same view point on the matter.
the closest thing to a "creator" for us is earth and nature.
Earth and nature have provided for and sustained all life for a very long time.
we respect that deeply and honor it.
that is our way.

different tribes have different ways.
this is true of all cultures, and all peoples from all over the world.

You're not an Apache.

You're an asshole.

Yet another lie. I'm sure you have proof. But you won't post it. Because you're blind. You've got the HIV. Your (saint) mother took you to Kiss concerts when you were two years old.

Fuck you.

Cheers! :bottle:

Seshmeister
12-21-2009, 07:23 AM
Get what I'm saying? If you don't believe, leave it the fuck alone. It's not your job to prove it isn't real.


I get the argument.

It's the liberal argument that most people had gone along with for the last 30 years.

The reason in the last 5-10 years a lot of people have started to question the 'leave them to it' is the superstitions have been causing everyone problems.

You're sitting quietly doing your job one day and a plane crashes into your offices.

Your niece gets to 30 and finds that her uncle has needlessly died due to a disease that could have been prevented if US medical research had been allowed to be done.

Your niece gets to 30 and finds that there are now another 4 billion people on the planet and there isn't enough water because some superstitious people did everything to prevent contraception amongst developing countries.

The lunatics that have brought about the 3 things above could not function without being able to stand on the shoulders of the 'moderately' religious who give legitimacy to their crazy ideas.

You can't have everyone being told that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden and then complain when some people start leaving out food for them or think that they are better than next door because they don't have fairies or whatever.

It's better to say there almost definitely no fairies at the bottom of the garden and here are the reasons that the particular fairies you have been told about don't exist.

ace diamond
12-21-2009, 12:03 PM
You're not an Apache.

You're an asshole.

Yet another lie. I'm sure you have proof. But you won't post it. Because you're blind. You've got the HIV. Your (saint) mother took you to Kiss concerts when you were two years old.

Fuck you.

Cheers! :bottle:

i am apache.
that's all there is to it.

Hardrock69
12-21-2009, 03:07 PM
Do you get moneyz off duh Big White Fathers in Washing-tun? Not being racist. Goddamn white people ass-raped the Native Americans for years!

At least the tribes get to have Casinos. So why don't they start selling pot? US Federal law has not jurisdiction on the Res....right?

FORD
12-21-2009, 03:14 PM
Do you get moneyz off duh Big White Fathers in Washing-tun? Not being racist. Goddamn white people ass-raped the Native Americans for years!

At least the tribes get to have Casinos. So why don't they start selling pot? US Federal law has not jurisdiction on the Res....right?

Actually it's just the opposite. Federal law DOES have jurisdiction on reservations, but state law does not.

That's why you buy fireworks on the Rez, and some people buy smokes there to cheat taxes. It's also why tribal casinos are about the only public buildings you can find anymore where smoking is allowed indoors, though most of them do have smoke free facilities (and the smart ones do it right with separate HVAC systems)

Sensible Shoes
12-21-2009, 03:25 PM
The State vs. soverignty issue came to a big bad lawsuit in Buffalo challenging the New York's intrusive stance on collecting taxes on Cigarettes and gas sold on reservations. I'm not sure how it was resolved, but it was an extremely interesting case involving original documents from 100 plus year old treaties.

Guitar Shark
12-21-2009, 03:28 PM
Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that:

1. Jesus Christ is the only one who disapproves of the original post
2. Jesus Christ is on record as calling the original poster a "JACKASS"

:lmao:

Seshmeister
12-21-2009, 03:39 PM
We were big bad wolf back in the Middle Ages, but now we have the Baptists and Pentecostals to worry about. They're the ones going on about how dinosaurs didn't exist and men can't have long hair cuz it's the way of the devil.

It's true that the Catholic church are better at not attacking science than a lot of the looney toons US religions.

It's just a pity about the spreading AIDs and hunger, child rape, sexism, destroying the planet and a little bit of corruption.

Otherwise we could could all stop worring about it.

Sensible Shoes
12-21-2009, 03:53 PM
Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that:

1. Jesus Christ is the only one who disapproves of the original post
2. Jesus Christ is on record as calling the original poster a "JACKASS"

:lmao:

Thanks for pointing that out.....yes, it's a hoot!

It's kind of occured to me that we started by debating the details of Christ's birth, onto debating the existance of Christ, onto debating the merits of various religions. Boy we can't stay on topic, can we?

Jesus Christ
12-21-2009, 04:31 PM
Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that:

1. Jesus Christ is the only one who disapproves of the original post
2. Jesus Christ is on record as calling the original poster a "JACKASS"

:lmao:

Verily I say unto thee Matthew, that who is a jackass, but he who denies Me before man, and the same shall I deny before My Father.

GO-SPURS-GO
12-21-2009, 04:42 PM
Verily I say unto thee Matthew, that who is a jackass, but he who denies Me before man, and the same shall I deny before My Father.

Regardless of what most people around here say about you, I have to say that you're one cool dude! :baaa:

Ain't it sad that people bash you and your pops for things (some bible teachings, wars, etc..) you two had nothing to do with? :(

Anonymous
12-21-2009, 04:47 PM
I get the argument.

It's the liberal argument that most people had gone along with for the last 30 years.

The reason in the last 5-10 years a lot of people have started to question the 'leave them to it' is the superstitions have been causing everyone problems.

You're sitting quietly doing your job one day and a plane crashes into your offices.

Your niece gets to 30 and finds that her uncle has needlessly died due to a disease that could have been prevented if US medical research had been allowed to be done.

Your niece gets to 30 and finds that there are now another 4 billion people on the planet and there isn't enough water because some superstitious people did everything to prevent contraception amongst developing countries.

The lunatics that have brought about the 3 things above could not function without being able to stand on the shoulders of the 'moderately' religious who give legitimacy to their crazy ideas.

You can't have everyone being told that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden and then complain when some people start leaving out food for them or think that they are better than next door because they don't have fairies or whatever.

It's better to say there almost definitely no fairies at the bottom of the garden and here are the reasons that the particular fairies you have been told about don't exist.

You are right, of course.

But that's not really what I was saying.

God doesn't exist. I know that, and you know that.

You probably also know that no matter how much sense you make, how much evidence you produce, how logical you are, you won't change their minds.

THAT is what I mean.

So, rather than add fuel to the fire by discussing with them, showing them evidence, etc. just do the right thing.

Laugh at them. Point out how stupid, ignorant & superstitious they are. How retarded for believing such things.

While that will not yield any real results either, it's easier for them to feel stupid when you do this.

The other way around, you're elevating the discussion to something akin to intellectual, and they will feel good exposing their own points of view in a proper discussion.

Seriously, you really have to be a retard to believe in something that has been disproved time & time again. The whole story has been patched so many times through the ages to cover up the most blatant plot holes, it doesn't even make sense anymore.

That's why they ask you to have faith. Which means, "Please, act like you're really stupid, and stop asking so many questions. Just believe me, ok?"

But it is true that if we normal people are to have any peace, we should strike the religious zealots first.

Just bomb 'em. That way, they'll move sooner closer to their God, and everybody's happy.

Cheers! :bottle:

Anonymous
12-21-2009, 04:52 PM
i am apache.
that's all there is to it.

Sure. You're a blind, AIDS ridden Apache who lives by the river & fishes for his lunch, which happens to be a salad.

Fuck off, Blubber.

No one's buying your crap anymore.

Your lies have been exposed time & time again.

And I promise you this.

Every time I catch you lying on a thread, any thread, I'll make a point of reminding everyone what a stupid lying asshole you are.

If you post decent stuff, I have no reason to go after you.

THAT is all there is to it.

Cheers! :bottle:

GO-SPURS-GO
12-21-2009, 05:00 PM
Laugh at them. Point out how stupid, ignorant & superstitious they are. How retarded for believing such things.


I'm not trying to start a fight with you bro, but you do realize that some of the greatest minds (Einstein, Galileo, Pasteur, Newton, etc..) to ever walk this earth believed in a God? Are they stupid and ignorant? :)

Anonymous
12-21-2009, 05:10 PM
I'm not trying to start a fight with you bro, but you do realize that some of the greatest minds (Einstein, Pasteur, Newton, etc..) to ever walk this earth believed in a God? Are they stupid and ignorant? :)

First of all, I really don't know if they believed in God, and I don't really give a fuck.

Second, there are different types of intelligence.

I have this friend who really is a genious. You wouldn't believe how fast he picks up on new stuff. Constantly. His main hobby are computers, and the guy really knows everything from MS-DOS to Windows 7, programming, & a bunch of other shit I don't even know what's it called, so I really cannot do justice to his genious in this department. His IQ is over 150.

However, the guy is dumb. Really dumb. He can't think for himself. He believes anything you tell him. And the schemes he comes up with are pretty ridiculous.

He's actually working as a teacher because he's both too lazy & too stupid to start a business on his own.

So, while I am very proud to call this person a very good friend, because he's a really cool guy whom you can absolutely trust with your life, I must say that being a genious doesn't really mean that you're smart.

Cheers! :bottle:

Seshmeister
12-21-2009, 08:40 PM
I'm not trying to start a fight with you bro, but you do realize that some of the greatest minds (Einstein, Galileo, Pasteur, Newton, etc..) to ever walk this earth believed in a God? Are they stupid and ignorant? :)

For three of those then coming out and saying they didn't would have led to them being killed or at least their lives being made very awkward. Einsteins belief in a God is always over egged he usually used it in the sense of meaning 'nature' or everything rather than a living Christian style god.

Also there have been absolutely huge advances in science since those guys were around and advances in fields like physics and genetics have proved at least a literal interpretation of the bible is plain wrong. Almost all top scientists even in the US are not religious nowadays.

lesfunk
12-21-2009, 08:58 PM
God? No God? I don't give a shit. There are plenty of smart people that have faith. There are plenty of smart people that don't. There are also plenty of dumb people who believe and plenty of dumb people who don't.
So fuck off and give me a present already

kwame k
12-21-2009, 09:12 PM
For three of those then coming out and saying they didn't would have led to them being killed or at least their lives being made very awkward. Einsteins belief in a God is always over egged he usually used it in the sense of meaning 'nature' or everything rather than a living Christian style god.

Also there have been absolutely huge advances in science since those guys were around and advances in fields like physics and genetics have proved at least a literal interpretation of the bible is plain wrong. Almost all top scientists even in the US are not religious nowadays.

Really the Bible is more morality tales then the actual, everything in this book is true word of God. Sure some of the Moralities of old don't fit our Moralities today but that is why religion changes to fit the times. The way people worshiped in say 600 AD is a helluva lot different than today. Every generation interprets the Bible to fit into the context of their time.

As we understand more about our world and what makes it up...the less we rely on the Bible to explain those things. We discard them and move on. At least people with half a brain do.

If you look at the Bible that way it makes more sense. Morality tales and stories trying to explain nature/natural disasters are as old as man. Retelling popular stories from different cultures and incorporating them into your own story was done by everyone who had contact with other cultures. We still do it today...look at popular British TV shows, we retool them for the American audience but they are not the original shows.
Compare the Epic of Atra-Hasis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atra-Hasis) and to some extent Gilgamesh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth), too. Similar stories to explain a flood and the main influence for Noah's flood story. These stories were told for years before they were written down and the best ones were the ones that got retold, built upon by other story tellers and finally written down.

Seshmeister
12-21-2009, 11:37 PM
I think in a way the failure of Christian preachers to be honest with their congregation or at least more thoughtful is self defeating.

Say a preacher gets up and tells the story of Jesus telling the story of the good Samaritan then that's all good. It's a story, it's presented as such and it has a moral message.

Everyone sings a song(in my culture that means a mind boggling misery of 19th century melody) and then he stands up again.

He starts droning on about the census making Mary and Joseph go to Bethlehem and immediately the guy that was putting himself up there as a kind of wise person giving out some moral advice is standing in public saying something that is completely untrue and verifiable as such. We know there was no Roman census in those times in that area and even if there was it is absolutely inconceivable that the Romans would make everyone travel to where their forefathers were born to take part in it. Absolute fucking insanity. The Roman government is going to stop anyone doing any sort of work to pay for their extremely expensive empire for a couple of months whilst everyone shuffles around trying to travel to where their great great grandfather was born to be counted? And at the end of this bizarre and unique event in the history of the Romans noone wrote it down?

I'm saying all this like a smartass but like most people I never even thought about that lunacy until a few years back and that is the power of shit that is stuck in your head at an early age.

ELVIS
12-21-2009, 11:44 PM
We know there was no Roman census in those times

Yes there was...

Seshmeister
12-21-2009, 11:55 PM
There absofuckinglutely wasn't in the form and at the time decribed in the bible.

ELVIS
12-22-2009, 12:02 AM
testy testy...;)

Seshmeister
12-22-2009, 12:04 AM
Forgive me. :)

ELVIS
12-22-2009, 12:10 AM
You are forgivin. Now go and sin no more...;)

Jesus Christ
12-22-2009, 01:01 AM
You are forgivin. Now go and sin no more...;)

Quit stealing My lines, Gregory! Besides ye knoweth that only God can forgive sin. And ye are not Us. :jesuslol:

Seshmeister
12-22-2009, 06:53 AM
I've always thought it was very appropriate that Jesus was an alias here, especially at a site for fans of a lapsed jew.

Hardrock69
12-22-2009, 01:03 PM
Verily I say unto thee Matthew, that who is a jackass, but he who denies Me before man, and the same shall I deny before My Father.

Funny, Jesus never once claimed to be the Son of God (but almost 90 times said he was the son of MAN), but this alias can't stop saying he is the Son of God.

Sounds like your typical religious nut to me. :biggrin:

kwame k
12-22-2009, 02:10 PM
Stop it you guys!!!! That is the real Jesus posting and I'll warn you all to stop blaspheming in here only once.

Forgive them Lord they know not what they do.

FORD
12-22-2009, 02:35 PM
Funny, Jesus never once claimed to be the Son of God (but almost 90 times said he was the son of MAN), but this alias can't stop saying he is the Son of God.

Sounds like your typical religious nut to me. :biggrin:

Actually, He did say He was the Son of God....



John 14:6-9 (The Message)

6-7 Jesus said, "I am the Road, also the Truth, also the Life. No one gets to the Father apart from me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him. You've even seen him!"

8 Philip said, "Master, show us the Father; then we'll be content."

9-10 "You've been with me all this time, Philip, and you still don't understand? To see me is to see the Father. So how can you ask, 'Where is the Father?' Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you aren't mere words. I don't just make them up on my own. The Father who resides in me crafts each word into a divine act.



John 6:37-40 (The Message)

35-38 Jesus said, "I am the Bread of Life. The person who aligns with me hungers no more and thirsts no more, ever. I have told you this explicitly because even though you have seen me in action, you don't really believe me. Every person the Father gives me eventually comes running to me. And once that person is with me, I hold on and don't let go. I came down from heaven not to follow my own whim but to accomplish the will of the One who sent me.

39-40 "This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed—not a single detail missed—and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole. This is what my Father wants: that anyone who sees the Son and trusts who he is and what he does and then aligns with him will enter real life, eternal life. My part is to put them on their feet alive and whole at the completion of time."



John 10:24-30 (The Message)

22-24 They were celebrating Hanukkah just then in Jerusalem. It was winter. Jesus was strolling in the Temple across Solomon's Porch. The Jews, circling him, said, "How long are you going to keep us guessing? If you're the Messiah, tell us straight out."

25-30 Jesus answered, "I told you, but you don't believe. Everything I have done has been authorized by my Father, actions that speak louder than words. You don't believe because you're not my sheep. My sheep recognize my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them real and eternal life. They are protected from the Destroyer for good. No one can steal them from out of my hand. The Father who put them under my care is so much greater than the Destroyer and Thief. No one could ever get them away from him. I and the Father are one."



Matthew 16:15-17 (The Message)

15 He pressed them, "And how about you? Who do you say I am?"

16 Simon Peter said, "You're the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

17-18 Jesus came back, "God bless you, Simon, son of Jonah! You didn't get that answer out of books or from teachers. My Father in heaven, God himself, let you in on this secret of who I really am. And now I'm going to tell you who you are, really are. You are Peter, a rock. This is the rock on which I will put together my church, a church so expansive with energy that not even the gates of hell will be able to keep it out.



Matthew 26:63-64 (The Message)

63 Jesus kept silent.

Then the Chief Priest said, "I command you by the authority of the living God to say if you are the Messiah, the Son of God."

64 Jesus was curt: "You yourself said it. And that's not all. Soon you'll see it for yourself:

The Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Mighty One,
Arriving on the clouds of heaven."



Luke 22:70 (The Message)

70 They all said, "So you admit your claim to be the Son of God?"

"You're the ones who keep saying it," he said.



John 10:36-38 (The Message)

34-38 Jesus said, "I'm only quoting your inspired Scriptures, where God said, 'I tell you—you are gods.' If God called your ancestors 'gods'—and Scripture doesn't lie—why do you yell, 'Blasphemer! Blasphemer!' at the unique One the Father consecrated and sent into the world, just because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I don't do the things my Father does, well and good; don't believe me. But if I am doing them, put aside for a moment what you hear me say about myself and just take the evidence of the actions that are right before your eyes. Then perhaps things will come together for you, and you'll see that not only are we doing the same thing, we are the same—Father and Son. He is in me; I am in him."

ELVIS
12-22-2009, 02:42 PM
At least softcock is smart enough to check scripture before making his point...:biggrin:

Nitro Express
12-22-2009, 02:50 PM
A religion is an organization that exploits people's fear of the unknown. Amazingly cash donations and total faith in the church leadership always seem to get you in better with god.

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 12:22 AM
US Federal law has not jurisdiction on the Res....right?
wrong.
only a federal marshall can set foot on a reservation.
but before the federal marshall can do so, a federal court order is required, and it must be signed by the president of the united states.
other wise, federal lawman is trespassing on the soveriegn land and can himself be arrested and imprisoned by the tribe.
also, before a federal marshall crosses into the reservation, the tribal leaders must be notified no less than a month in advance.
the us government is required to wait 30 days so as to allow tribal leaders and tribal police to deal with the issue first.

if, after the tribal leaders meet, they decide not to honor the federal court order, the marshal cannot do a damn thing about it.
if he tries to enter the reservation to enforce it, he can be arrested for trespassing on soveriegn land, and some tribe will just shoot you on the spot.
others will arrest you.
some will just act like they are not even there.
and still some tribes will just take refuge and hide until they leave,
so by the time the marshalls reach the village or tribal hq, no one is there.

the marshalls get thwarted and opposed in most cases.
simply because on the reservation, everyone knows the marshalls cannot do a damn thing about anything.
their legal authority is often not recognised, and is often laughed at openly.

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 12:26 AM
The State vs. soverignty issue came to a big bad lawsuit in Buffalo challenging the New York's intrusive stance on collecting taxes on Cigarettes and gas sold on reservations. I'm not sure how it was resolved, but it was an extremely interesting case involving original documents from 100 plus year old treaties.
in the 1970's, the seneca nation responded by taking earthmovers and bulldozers and shutting down both sides the new york state throughway at the seneca reservation boundaries, both ends.
the government eventually backed down.

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 12:29 AM
verily i say unto thee matthew, that who is a jackass, but he who denies me before man, and the same shall i deny before my father.


stfu!

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 12:38 AM
you are right, of course.

But that's not really what i was saying.

God doesn't exist. I know that, and you know that.

You probably also know that no matter how much sense you make, how much evidence you produce, how logical you are, you won't change their minds.

That is what i mean.

So, rather than add fuel to the fire by discussing with them, showing them evidence, etc. Just do the right thing.

Laugh at them. Point out how stupid, ignorant & superstitious they are. How retarded for believing such things.

While that will not yield any real results either, it's easier for them to feel stupid when you do this.

The other way around, you're elevating the discussion to something akin to intellectual, and they will feel good exposing their own points of view in a proper discussion.

Seriously, you really have to be a retard to believe in something that has been disproved time & time again. The whole story has been patched so many times through the ages to cover up the most blatant plot holes, it doesn't even make sense anymore.

That's why they ask you to have faith. Which means, "please, act like you're really stupid, and stop asking so many questions. Just believe me, ok?"

but it is true that if we normal people are to have any peace, we should strike the religious zealots first.

Just bomb 'em. That way, they'll move sooner closer to their god, and everybody's happy.

Cheers! :bottle:
i went to the market today.
Some of these idiots accosted me as i went in. I told them
"hail satan"
so the followed me through the store trying to argue and force their nonsense on me, to whcih i told them, "fuck off, you are wasting your efforts on an excersize in futility."
when i came out of the store, these dipshits decided to
continue to accost me with this crap, to which i responded
"hey the next time you are on your knees praising jesus, why don't make sure that you suck his fucking dick"

the response i got "i rebuke you demon......blah, blah, blah......"

to which i was laughing at them so fucking loud that the store manager came out, and i filled him in.
He started fucking laughing at them.

Then i had security haul them off until the cops could come arrest them properly for trespassing, harassment, loitering,
littering, being a public nuisense, wrongful imprisonment,
panhandling, and basically for just being stupid.

GO-SPURS-GO
12-23-2009, 12:47 AM
i went to the market today.
Some of these idiots accosted me as i went in. I told them
"hail satan"
so the followed me through the store trying to argue and force their nonsense on me, to whcih i told them, "fuck off, you are wasting your efforts on an excersize in futility."
when i came out of the store, these dipshits decided to
continue to accost me with this crap, to which i responded
"hey the next time you are on your knees praising jesus, why don't make sure that you suck his fucking dick"

the response i got "i rebuke you demon......blah, blah, blah......"

to which i was laughing at them so fucking loud that the store manager came out, and i filled him in.
He started fucking laughing at them.

Then i had security haul them off until the cops could come arrest them properly for trespassing, harassment, loitering,
littering, being a public nuisense, wrongful imprisonment,
panhandling, and basically for just being stupid.

<a href="http://www.commentfarm.com/viewcomment.aspx?id=1248bd70-3cda-4d0e-bb73-d777fa853f77"><img border="0" src="http://images.commentfarm.com/images/1248bd70-3cda-4d0e-bb73-d777fa853f77.gif" alt="Myspace Comment Graphics, Funny Comment Graphics" /></a><br /><a href="http://www.commentfarm.com/viewcomment.aspx?id=1248bd70-3cda-4d0e-bb73-d777fa853f77">More Comment Graphics</a><br/><br/>

kwame k
12-23-2009, 12:56 AM
i went to the market today.
Some of these idiots accosted me as i went in. I told them
"hail satan"
so the followed me through the store trying to argue and force their nonsense on me, to whcih i told them, "fuck off, you are wasting your efforts on an excersize in futility."
when i came out of the store, these dipshits decided to
continue to accost me with this crap, to which i responded
"hey the next time you are on your knees praising jesus, why don't make sure that you suck his fucking dick"

the response i got "i rebuke you demon......blah, blah, blah......"

to which i was laughing at them so fucking loud that the store manager came out, and i filled him in.
He started fucking laughing at them.

Then i had security haul them off until the cops could come arrest them properly for trespassing, harassment, loitering,
littering, being a public nuisense, wrongful imprisonment,
panhandling, and basically for just being stupid.

Not an expert on law, Vinnie Vermin but...........in your effort to tell a great story, I think you were reaching too far. Not a criticism, more of a critique.

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 01:20 AM
Not an expert on law, Vinnie Vermin but...........in your effort to tell a great story, I think you were reaching too far. Not a criticism, more of a critique.
well, since the idiots cornered me, even after i let it be known i was not interested in what they were spewing, they kept following me around the store, pestering me, until i was literally in a corner and and surrounded by the idiots, in california, that actually qualifies as "wrongful imprisonment".

kwame k
12-23-2009, 01:30 AM
Keep throwing shit out there, Ace.....eventually something will stick.

Here's my advice from another thread to you........


It would be so much easier and take up less space in this thread, if you just admit you lied. Back peddling and making up other lies, to cover-up your previous lies, really is a futile effort.

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 01:53 AM
Keep throwing shit out there, Ace...

hey kwame, just going on what i was told.

kwame k
12-23-2009, 01:55 AM
In case you missed it the first three times I posted it.


It would be so much easier and take up less space in this thread, if you just admit you lied. Back peddling and making up other lies, to cover-up your previous lies, really is a futile effort.

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 02:13 AM
repeat yourself much, eh kwame?
scratched record style-
whatever dude.

kwame k
12-23-2009, 02:17 AM
Who in the fuck is going to charge these guys with wrongful imprisonment? You had a good story going, Ace, but ruined it with adding that.

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 02:21 AM
Who in the fuck is going to charge these guys with unlawful imprisonment? You had a good story going, Ace, but ruined it with adding that.

whatever dude.
:rolleyes:

kwame k
12-23-2009, 01:05 PM
Well Vinnie Vermin I gave you overnight to retool your story without pointing out the obvious.......Wrongful Imprisonment is a term for people that are well.....Wrongfully Imprisoned and it's not an enforceable law.

Sorry to use that four letter word you have so much trouble understanding......FACT!

ThrillsNSpills
12-23-2009, 01:37 PM
well, since the idiots cornered me, even after i let it be known i was not interested in what they were spewing, they kept following me around the store, pestering me, until i was literally in a corner and and surrounded by the idiots, in california, that actually qualifies as "wrongful imprisonment".



You should have just played some songs for them!

Guitar Shark
12-23-2009, 01:39 PM
wrong.
only a federal marshall can set foot on a reservation.
but before the federal marshall can do so, a federal court order is required, and it must be signed by the president of the united states.
other wise, federal lawman is trespassing on the soveriegn land and can himself be arrested and imprisoned by the tribe.
also, before a federal marshall crosses into the reservation, the tribal leaders must be notified no less than a month in advance.
the us government is required to wait 30 days so as to allow tribal leaders and tribal police to deal with the issue first.

if, after the tribal leaders meet, they decide not to honor the federal court order, the marshal cannot do a damn thing about it.
if he tries to enter the reservation to enforce it, he can be arrested for trespassing on soveriegn land, and some tribe will just shoot you on the spot.
others will arrest you.
some will just act like they are not even there.
and still some tribes will just take refuge and hide until they leave,
so by the time the marshalls reach the village or tribal hq, no one is there.

the marshalls get thwarted and opposed in most cases.
simply because on the reservation, everyone knows the marshalls cannot do a damn thing about anything.
their legal authority is often not recognised, and is often laughed at openly.

Ace, what color is the sky in your world?

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 01:42 PM
Well Vinnie Vermin I gave you overnight to retool your story without pointing out the obvious.......Wrongful Imprisonment is a term for people that are well.....Wrongfully Imprisoned and it's not an enforceable law.

Sorry to use that four letter word you have so much trouble understanding......FACT!

kwame, you would be surprised at the extreme stupidity of some of the laws here in california.

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 01:44 PM
Ace, what color is the sky in your world?
i would tell you if i could see that far.
either way, it depends on the weather.
any other obviously stupid questions, sherlock?

ThrillsNSpills
12-23-2009, 01:45 PM
Storytime with Geronino



brought to you by:


http://www.supplierlist.com/photo_images/64089/Tuna_HookTie_HookFish_HooksFishing_HookFishhookFis hing_LuresFly__Hook_Sea_HooksFishhookLead_JigsSpin ner_and_SpoonSea_Fish_HookSword_Fish_HookFishing_H ook_Tier.jpg



fallacy fishhooks



when you need to fish for romaine lettuce, cucumbers, and onions.

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 01:48 PM
Storytime with Geronino



brought to you by:


http://www.supplierlist.com/photo_images/64089/Tuna_HookTie_HookFish_HooksFishing_HookFishhookFis hing_LuresFly__Hook_Sea_HooksFishhookLead_JigsSpin ner_and_SpoonSea_Fish_HookSword_Fish_HookFishing_H ook_Tier.jpg



fallacy fishhooks



when you need to fish for romaine lettuce, cucumbers, and onions.

eat a dick

Guitar Shark
12-23-2009, 01:51 PM
any other obviously stupid questions, sherlock?

Why do you spend so much time making up ridiculous, easily disproven lies? Do you have nothing else in your life to occupy your time?

kwame k
12-23-2009, 01:51 PM
Ace, it's not an enforceable law it's a term used for people who are wrongfully imprisoned.

So, if the cops arrested someone for wrongful imprisonment they would be opening themselves up for a lawsuit....in other words they would be giving the person arrested all the ammo they'd need to sue the State. It's not a law in Cali or anywhere else for that matter.

Nice attempt at a back peddle and it would of been a great story had you omitted that...of course you can prove that it happened by linking or clipping the arrest blotter that most local newspapers put out.

kwame k
12-23-2009, 01:53 PM
Storytime with Geronino



brought to you by:


http://www.supplierlist.com/photo_images/64089/Tuna_HookTie_HookFish_HooksFishing_HookFishhookFis hing_LuresFly__Hook_Sea_HooksFishhookLead_JigsSpin ner_and_SpoonSea_Fish_HookSword_Fish_HookFishing_H ook_Tier.jpg



fallacy fishhooks



when you need to fish for romaine lettuce, cucumbers, and onions.

:lmao:

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 02:13 PM
Ace, it's not an enforceable law it's a term used for people who are wrongfully imprisoned.

So, if the cops arrested someone for wrongful imprisonment they would be opening themselves up for a lawsuit....in other words they would be giving the person arrested all the ammo they'd need to sue the State. It's not a law in Cali or anywhere else for that matter.

Nice attempt at a back peddle and it would of been a great story had you omitted that...of course you can prove that it happened by linking or clipping the arrest blotter that most local newspapers put out.

kwame, the cop was probably just trying to scare the shit out of them as a means of deterring them from coming back there and bothering anyone else.

the cop knows he is full of shit, but those kids don't.

the officer called me this morning to tell me that those kids were not arrested, but they were let off with a citation for loitering, and told them that they cannot be there accosting and harrassing people.
their parents were notified.

also, the kids are banned for one year from the shopping center,
and if the are seen there again, it will be an arrest for criminal trespassing.

either way, the matter was taken care of and the issue was settled.
currently, the score is:
religious nut jobs 0
ace diamond 1

ThrillsNSpills
12-23-2009, 02:18 PM
Those children were a nuisance.


It's good that you called the cops on them.

they were immediately grounded and sent to bed without dinner.


I know because their mother called me this morning. (for unrelated reasons)

bueno bob
12-23-2009, 02:23 PM
Well, my Dad lives out pretty close to a reservation in Arizona way down south; apparently tribal councils have very little problem allowing outside law enforcement on their turf in the event that it becomes necessary (and that's usually border patrol), and in such cases they work hand in hand with tribal law enforcement.

Lines of communication and a willingness to cooperate with each other seem to be in abundance.

Guitar Shark
12-23-2009, 02:26 PM
Well, my Dad lives out pretty close to a reservation in Arizona way down south; apparently tribal councils have very little problem allowing outside law enforcement on their turf in the event that it becomes necessary (and that's usually border patrol), and in such cases they work hand in hand with tribal law enforcement.

Lines of communication and a willingness to cooperate with each other seem to be in abundance.

Please stop making sense. Thank you.

As Ace so eloquently stated, President Obama has to sign an executive order each time any law enforcement personnel set foot on tribal lands. If Ace says it, it must be true.

bueno bob
12-23-2009, 02:28 PM
Please stop making sense. Thank you.

As Ace so eloquently stated, President Obama has to sign an executive order each time any law enforcement personnel set foot on tribal lands. If Ace says it, it must be true.

He can't do that. He's too busy turning America into a socialist/communist hybrid.

FORD
12-23-2009, 02:43 PM
He can't do that. He's too busy turning America into a socialist/communist hybrid.

...by further enabling capitalism, no less.

Guitar Shark
12-23-2009, 02:44 PM
He can't do that. He's too busy turning America into a socialist/communist hybrid.

If Ace can catch salad for lunch in his local stream, I have to believe that anything is possible.

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 02:51 PM
Well, my Dad lives out pretty close to a reservation in Arizona way down south; apparently tribal councils have very little problem allowing outside law enforcement on their turf in the event that it becomes necessary (and that's usually border patrol), and in such cases they work hand in hand with tribal law enforcement.

Lines of communication and a willingness to cooperate with each other seem to be in abundance.

bob, some tribes play along.
some don't.

that's all there is too it.

ThrillsNSpills
12-23-2009, 02:58 PM
If Ace can catch salad for lunch in his local stream, I have to believe that anything is possible.


complete with plastic fork and napkin in plastic wrap

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 03:20 PM
comedy hour, anyone?

kwame k
12-23-2009, 03:22 PM
If Ace can catch salad for lunch in his local stream, I have to believe that anything is possible.
Which brings us right back on topic......it's called faith. In the absence of any proof, logic and common sense, one must have faith to still believe Ace's stories:biggrin:

kwame k
12-23-2009, 03:33 PM
comedy hour, anyone?

We're only as good as the material you give us, Ace;)

Now let's get back to improving your storytelling. You should of ended your story with, "The cops showed up and after that I left". You see in doing that and not trying to "swing for the bleachers" you could not have been tripped up so easily and caught in your typical, telling another lie to get out of the previous lie.

I'm seeing improvement, Ace. With a few tweaks here and there we can make you a great storyteller. like your forefathers.

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 03:59 PM
We're only as good as the material you give us, Ace;)

Now let's get back to improving your storytelling. You should of ended your story with, "The cops showed up and after that I left". You see in doing that and not trying to "swing for the bleachers" you could not have been tripped up so easily and caught in your typical, telling another lie to get out of the previous lie.

I'm seeing improvement, Ace. With a few tweaks here and there we can make you a great storyteller. like your forefathers.

ok, so i made up and threw in was the "worngful inprisonment" bit.
however, the rest is true.

ace diamond
12-23-2009, 04:01 PM
Which brings us right back on topic......it's called faith. In the absence of any proof, logic and common sense, one must have faith to still believe Ace's stories:biggrin:

well, it's about time someone caught on to my whole point.

not much different than religion, is it?
that is the whole point.

kwame k
12-23-2009, 04:05 PM
ok, so i made up and threw in was the "worngful inprisonment" bit.
however, the rest is true.

See, you gotta know when to say when. Sometimes leaving stuff out makes the story better and harder for us to catch you in a lie.

Of course most local newspaper put out a Police Blotter saying the Police were dispatched and stuff like that, even if there wasn't an arrest. So we can verify the story that way, too. Might of worked better if you left it at the Mall Cop part and not brought the Police into it.

You're getting there.......

kwame k
12-23-2009, 04:07 PM
well, it's about time someone caught on to my whole point.

not much different than religion, is it?
that is the whole point.

Come on now, Ace...that wasn't the point and you know it. Once you post it, own it and stop back peddling and using one lie to cover up another lie. We can sense weakness in a post from a mile a way.

Golden AWe
01-03-2010, 12:11 PM
Revelations (the guy in the first pic is John)

http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1135251839007.gif

Little Texan
01-03-2010, 04:35 PM
Revelations (the guy in the first pic is John)

http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1135251839007.gif

Translation, GA?

Sensible Shoes
01-03-2010, 06:52 PM
Are we still fightin' about this?

ace diamond
01-03-2010, 08:31 PM
Are we still fightin' about this?

fuck yes we are.............it's the neverending story!

Seshmeister
01-03-2010, 09:48 PM
Well, my Dad lives out pretty close to a reservation in Arizona way down south; apparently tribal councils have very little problem allowing outside law enforcement on their turf in the event that it becomes necessary (and that's usually border patrol), and in such cases they work hand in hand with tribal law enforcement.

Lines of communication and a willingness to cooperate with each other seem to be in abundance.

Lets face it it's a shit unsucessful pointless culture.

They failed to even make decent houses never mind cars and computers and so forth.

They should be thankful that some of the native American genes will survive due to europeans gangbanging squaws otherwise their pointless bronze age civilisation would have been completely wiped out.

Cheers!


:gulp:

ace diamond
01-03-2010, 10:03 PM
Lets face it it's a shit unsucessful pointless culture.

They failed to even make decent houses never mind cars and computers and so forth.

They should be thankful that some of the native American genes will survive due to europeans gangbanging squaws otherwise their pointless bronze age civilisation would have been completely wiped out.

Cheers!


:gulp:

how typically european of you to just assume we are all just a bunch of dumb heathen savages in need of being "civilised" according to european definition.

sesh, the native populations of the americas are a whole lot fucking smarter than you give us credit for.

if it were not for the indians, the people of that came over the atlantic ocean on the mayflower would have frozen and starved to death.

oh, snap, there i go with historical facts.
but then again, how could i possibly?
according to you, indians are "bronze age" civilisation.

let me correct you here also.

very few of the native american tribes were even in existance during the bronze age.

the majority, like say 95% of the tribes that exist today, or the ones known to have died out or been killed into extinction in the last 1000+ years since europeans started settling in the americas, did not exist in the bronze age.

the inuit, the navajo, the apache, the hopi, the anasazi, and a few others in the western regions of north america predate the bronze age.
all others came into existance only in the past 1,500 years or less.
it was a result of inter-tribal marraiges.

at least that is where it started.

sesh, you really fucking stepped in it this time.

open foot, insert mouth.

as for "unsuccessful shit cultures"

you are wrong again.

native american astronomers in ancient times have been proven to be some of the finest the world has ever seen.

american indian astronomy predates european astronomy by literally, thousands of years.
and the stuff our astronomers discovered, they literally etched it in stone.
today, it is globally acknowledged as "the finest and most accurate works of astronomy ever produced".

time keeping..........the mayan long count calander-clock is acknowledged by science the world over as literally being the most accurate ever produced.
and even know, europeans have spent literally centuries trying to figure it out.
and they have made zero progress over the past 500 years since the europeans found out about it.

what did they do instead?
they tried to destroy and obliterate all our writings, records, cultures, structures, our entire population.

and during ww2, the navajo utilised their native language so that the japs and germans could not decipher any
transmissions they intercepted.
they were the navajo code talkers.
you should be thanking them that scotland is not a german speaking country under nazi rule.
now, sesh, an open mouth hears nothing.
shut the fuck up and you might actually learn something.

btw, sesh, the claim you made about the cars and computers is utter bullshit.
Y O U F A I L !
seshmeister just got fucking owned very fucking hard by ace diamond.
everybody mark this day down on your calender.
history in the making.

ace diamond
01-03-2010, 10:30 PM
also, sesh, native american indians have always been pro-enviornment.

the rest of the world is just now starting to realise how right we have always been.

the contributions to science and knowlegde the world over of the native american populations

is considered an invaluble treasure that was far ahead of its' time.

as for native american indian building methods......2 words........machu pichu......look at the mayan temples in mexico, look at the many incan cities that are still standing in silent defiance of fransisco pizarro.........
here in the united states, look at the anasazi ruins in chaco canyon in new mexico.....

these structures have stood for hundreds, and some of them, for thousands of years.

look at the system of writing the cherokee invented.

look at the drawings on cave walls of the hopi telling their stories in pictographs.
very clear images meant to convey the message.

so many things have american indians contributed to the world.

yet for most of it, we are not given our due credit.

seshmeister.........do the smart thing next time you wanna open your fucking mouth.........
think before you speak.

Golden AWe
01-04-2010, 03:27 AM
Translation, GA?

http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1135251839007.gif

A bad one. 1. "Howdy there"

2. "Will you come to the church tonight?"
"Sure thing"

3. "We've just seen the revelation of John"

"Revelation" of John (the bald one) is that hideous wife of his in this one. Just testing if that would work in other languages :)

Seshmeister
01-04-2010, 09:07 AM
Actually I was joking in my post about the injuns but after reading Ace's post I think I was maybe onto something.

The best that he can up with is an unsucessful language, some cave paintings and the fact that they were pro environment because they were too primative to be able to have an impact on it.

That and a complete failure to learn how to use capital letters... :)

At least the aborigines and eskimos have the excuse of living in a difficult evironment. The redskins had it all there for the taking but instead just sat about in tents smoking and coming up with silly names for each other.

chefcraig
01-04-2010, 09:23 AM
The redskins had it all there for the taking but instead just sat about in tents smoking and coming up with silly names for each other.

The young Indian boy had spent most of his life in a quandry... He felt different yet... couldn't figure why... he was just so depressed. He went to the Chief for answers... He asked the Chief how his brother Red Deer Running had gotten his name...

The Chief answered in his typically poetic way..."When Red Deer Running was born, at the moment of his birth, the first thing his mother saw was a beautiful deer running off into the forest... and so Running Deer was named. It is the custom of our tribe to name the offspring according to the spirits in nature visiting upon the birth."

Then, the boy said to the Chief... And how did my sister "Thundering Bird" get her name? The Chief described again, how at the moment of her birth Thundering Bird's mother had heard a roar of thunder and looking up, saw a bird flying in the sky...

The boy asked again, how his cousin "White Crouching Bear" had been given such a name... And the Chief, looking down once more at the boy, explaining the traditions of their tribe.... White Bear's mother had seen a rare white bear crouched over a stream at the moment her baby's birth.

Seeing and sensing some bewilderment on the boy's face, the Chief finally said:

"Why do you ask, Two Dogs A-Fuckin'?"

ELVIS
01-04-2010, 09:32 AM
if it were not for the indians, the people of that came over the atlantic ocean on the mayflower would have frozen and starved to death.



If that were the case, they would have either froze or starved to death way before they got here...

Dumdum...

ELVIS
01-04-2010, 09:35 AM
The redskins had it all there for the taking but instead just sat about in tents smoking and coming up with silly names for each other.

Sounds a lot like the hood...:biggrin:

ace diamond
01-05-2010, 04:30 PM
If that were the case, they would have either froze or starved to death way before they got here...

Dumdum...

try again, shithead........
the english knew how to sail and survive on the open ocean on ships.

when they got here to america, the were sick, had few supplies left, and had no idea
what to do about it.
the native people of that region taught them about natural medicine and how to buile shelters, how to hunt, how to make animal sins into warm winter clothes.......and often the tribe would have a big hunt, and would invite the new settlers to the bbq..............
even the surviving diaries and such from that time, from the english tell
how dire the circumstances were, and it is said, in the words of one english, that many of them did die that winter from the cold, from starvation, from scurvy, from pneumonia,
and that those that did survive the winter only survived their first winter because
of the help of the natives.

elvis, i know history rather well.

you fail.

Golden AWe
01-05-2010, 05:28 PM
Ace, chill out...when it comes to nature of the people, the habits of the people, I really don't see Sesh seriously defending a lot of european cunts over indian cunts...Sesh on the defense of italians? French? Catholic priests? English football players? Uhuhuhuhhuhuhu

Ok, romans, nazi farkers or Scorpions, maybe

EDIT: This is just like that scene from Dirty Harry, where the mexican rookie is told how Dirty Harry got his name...


Gonzales: There is one question, Inspector Callahan: Why do they call you "Dirty Harry"?
De Georgio: Ah that's one thing about our Harry, doesn't play any favorites! Harry hates everybody: Limeys, Micks, Hebes, Fat Dagos, ******s, Honkies, Chinks, you name it.
Gonzales: How does he feel about Mexicans?
De Georgio: Ask him.
Harry Callahan: Especially Spics.

Seshmeister
01-05-2010, 05:53 PM
I do think it's funny that Ace is defining the greatest achievement of the native Americans as being feeding a few boatloads of religious mentalists. :)

Apart from it being funny winding up Ace the reason I made my first post about them was that in the background someone was watching a film about Little Big Horn and it struck me how fucking annoying all that LALALALALALALAL warcry stuff gets after a while. :D

ace diamond
01-07-2010, 03:44 PM
well, to get back on topic, hardrock69 has done all the research on the subject of this thread, and he posted it a few years ago.
-----------------------------------


http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/NewTestament.html



The Forged Origins of The New Testament
In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all religious factions under one composite deity, and ordered the compilation of new and old writings into a uniform collection that became the New Testament.

Extracted from Nexus Magazine, Volume 14, Number 4 (June - July 2007)
PO Box 30, Mapleton Qld 4560 Australia. editor@nexusmagazine.com
Telephone: +61 (0)7 5442 9280; Fax: +61 (0)7 5442 9381
From our web page at: Nexus Magazine - Welcome to NEXUS Magazine! (http://www.nexusmagazine.com)

by Tony Bushby © March 2007
Correspondence:
c/- NEXUS Magazine
PO Box 30, Mapleton, Qld 4560, Australia
Fax: +61 (0)7 5493 1900

What the Church doesn't want you to know
It has often been emphasised that Christianity is unlike any other religion, for it stands or falls by certain events which are alleged to have occurred during a short period of time some 20 centuries ago. Those stories are presented in the New Testament, and as new evidence is revealed it will become clear that they do not represent historical realities. The Church agrees, saying:
"Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted."
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)

The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example, when discussing the origin of those writings, "the most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled" (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels "do not go back to the first century of the Christian era" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6). This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ. In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that "the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD" (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7). That is some 350 years after the time the Church claims that a Jesus Christ walked the sands of Palestine, and here the true story of Christian origins slips into one of the biggest black holes in history. There is, however, a reason why there were no New Testaments until the fourth century: they were not written until then, and here we find evidence of the greatest misrepresentation of all time.

It was British-born Flavius Constantinus (Constantine, originally Custennyn or Custennin) (272-337) who authorised the compilation of the writings now called the New Testament. After the death of his father in 306, Constantine became King of Britain, Gaul and Spain, and then, after a series of victorious battles, Emperor of the Roman Empire. Christian historians give little or no hint of the turmoil of the times and suspend Constantine in the air, free of all human events happening around him. In truth, one of Constantine's main problems was the uncontrollable disorder amongst presbyters and their belief in numerous gods.
The majority of modern-day Christian writers suppress the truth about the development of their religion and conceal Constantine's efforts to curb the disreputable character of the presbyters who are now called "Church Fathers" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xiv, pp. 370-1). They were "maddened", he said (Life of Constantine, attributed to Eusebius Pamphilius of Caesarea, c. 335, vol. iii, p. 171; The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, cited as N&PNF, attributed to St Ambrose, Rev. Prof. Roberts, DD, and Principal James Donaldson, LLD, editors, 1891, vol. iv, p. 467). The "peculiar type of oratory" expounded by them was a challenge to a settled religious order (The Dictionary of Classical Mythology, Religion, Literature and Art, Oskar Seyffert, Gramercy, New York, 1995, pp. 544-5). Ancient records reveal the true nature of the presbyters, and the low regard in which they were held has been subtly suppressed by modern Church historians. In reality, they were:
"...the most rustic fellows, teaching strange paradoxes. They openly declared that none but the ignorant was fit to hear their discourses ... they never appeared in the circles of the wiser and better sort, but always took care to intrude themselves among the ignorant and uncultured, rambling around to play tricks at fairs and markets ... they lard their lean books with the fat of old fables ... and still the less do they understand ... and they write nonsense on vellum ... and still be doing, never done."
(Contra Celsum ["Against Celsus"], Origen of Alexandria, c. 251, Bk I, p. lxvii, Bk III, p. xliv, passim)

Clusters of presbyters had developed "many gods and many lords" (1 Cor. 8:5) and numerous religious sects existed, each with differing doctrines (Gal. 1:6). Presbyterial groups clashed over attributes of their various gods and "altar was set against altar" in competing for an audience (Optatus of Milevis, 1:15, 19, early fourth century). From Constantine's point of view, there were several factions that needed satisfying, and he set out to develop an all-embracing religion during a period of irreverent confusion. In an age of crass ignorance, with nine-tenths of the peoples of Europe illiterate, stabilising religious splinter groups was only one of Constantine's problems. The smooth generalisation, which so many historians are content to repeat, that Constantine "embraced the Christian religion" and subsequently granted "official toleration", is "contrary to historical fact" and should be erased from our literature forever (Catholic Encyclopedia, Pecci ed., vol. iii, p. 299, passim). Simply put, there was no Christian religion at Constantine's time, and the Church acknowledges that the tale of his "conversion" and "baptism" are "entirely legendary" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xiv, pp. 370-1).
Constantine "never acquired a solid theological knowledge" and "depended heavily on his advisers in religious questions" (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, vol. xii, p. 576, passim). According to Eusebeius (260-339), Constantine noted that among the presbyterian factions "strife had grown so serious, vigorous action was necessary to establish a more religious state", but he could not bring about a settlement between rival god factions (Life of Constantine, op. cit., pp. 26-8). His advisers warned him that the presbyters' religions were "destitute of foundation" and needed official stabilisation (ibid.).
Constantine saw in this confused system of fragmented dogmas the opportunity to create a new and combined State religion, neutral in concept, and to protect it by law. When he conquered the East in 324 he sent his Spanish religious adviser, Osius of Córdoba, to Alexandria with letters to several bishops exhorting them to make peace among themselves. The mission failed and Constantine, probably at the suggestion of Osius, then issued a decree commanding all presbyters and their subordinates "be mounted on asses, mules and horses belonging to the public, and travel to the city of Nicaea" in the Roman province of Bithynia in Asia Minor. They were instructed to bring with them the testimonies they orated to the rabble, "bound in leather" for protection during the long journey, and surrender them to Constantine upon arrival in Nicaea (The Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, 1917, "Council of Nicaea" entry). Their writings totalled "in all, two thousand two hundred and thirty-one scrolls and legendary tales of gods and saviours, together with a record of the doctrines orated by them" (Life of Constantine, op. cit., vol. ii, p. 73; N&PNF, op. cit., vol. i, p. 518).

The First Council of Nicaea and the "missing records"
Thus, the first ecclesiastical gathering in history was summoned and is today known as the Council of Nicaea. It was a bizarre event that provided many details of early clerical thinking and presents a clear picture of the intellectual climate prevailing at the time. It was at this gathering that Christianity was born, and the ramifications of decisions made at the time are difficult to calculate. About four years prior to chairing the Council, Constantine had been initiated into the religious order of Sol Invictus, one of the two thriving cults that regarded the Sun as the one and only Supreme God (the other was Mithraism). Because of his Sun worship, he instructed Eusebius to convene the first of three sittings on the summer solstice, 21 June 325 (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, vol. i, p. 792), and it was "held in a hall in Osius's palace" (Ecclesiastical History, Bishop Louis Dupin, Paris, 1686, vol. i, p. 598). In an account of the proceedings of the conclave of presbyters gathered at Nicaea, Sabinius, Bishop of Hereclea, who was in attendance, said, "Excepting Constantine himself and Eusebius Pamphilius, they were a set of illiterate, simple creatures who understood nothing" (Secrets of the Christian Fathers, Bishop J. W. Sergerus, 1685, 1897 reprint).
This is another luminous confession of the ignorance and uncritical credulity of early churchmen. Dr Richard Watson (1737-1816), a disillusioned Christian historian and one-time Bishop of Llandaff in Wales (1782), referred to them as "a set of gibbering idiots" (An Apology for Christianity, 1776, 1796 reprint; also, Theological Tracts, Dr Richard Watson, "On Councils" entry, vol. 2, London, 1786, revised reprint 1791). From his extensive research into Church councils, Dr Watson concluded that "the clergy at the Council of Nicaea were all under the power of the devil, and the convention was composed of the lowest rabble and patronised the vilest abominations" (An Apology for Christianity, op. cit.). It was that infantile body of men who were responsible for the commencement of a new religion and the theological creation of Jesus Christ.
The Church admits that vital elements of the proceedings at Nicaea are "strangely absent from the canons" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 160). We shall see shortly what happened to them. However, according to records that endured, Eusebius "occupied the first seat on the right of the emperor and delivered the inaugural address on the emperor's behalf" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. v, pp. 619-620). There were no British presbyters at the council but many Greek delegates. "Seventy Eastern bishops" represented Asiatic factions, and small numbers came from other areas (Ecclesiastical History, ibid.). Caecilian of Carthage travelled from Africa, Paphnutius of Thebes from Egypt, Nicasius of Die (Dijon) from Gaul, and Donnus of Stridon made the journey from Pannonia.

It was at that puerile assembly, and with so many cults represented, that a total of 318 "bishops, priests, deacons, subdeacons, acolytes and exorcists" gathered to debate and decide upon a unified belief system that encompassed only one god (An Apology for Christianity, op. cit.). By this time, a huge assortment of "wild texts" (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, "Gospel and Gospels") circulated amongst presbyters and they supported a great variety of Eastern and Western gods and goddesses: Jove, Jupiter, Salenus, Baal, Thor, Gade, Apollo, Juno, Aries, Taurus, Minerva, Rhets, Mithra, Theo, Fragapatti, Atys, Durga, Indra, Neptune, Vulcan, Kriste, Agni, Croesus, Pelides, Huit, Hermes, Thulis, Thammus, Eguptus, Iao, Aph, Saturn, Gitchens, Minos, Maximo, Hecla and Phernes (God's Book of Eskra, anon., ch. xlviii, paragraph 36).
Up until the First Council of Nicaea, the Roman aristocracy primarily worshipped two Greek gods-Apollo and Zeus-but the great bulk of common people idolised either Julius Caesar or Mithras (the Romanised version of the Persian deity Mithra). Caesar was deified by the Roman Senate after his death (15 March 44 BC) and subsequently venerated as "the Divine Julius". The word "Saviour" was affixed to his name, its literal meaning being "one who sows the seed", i.e., he was a phallic god. Julius Caesar was hailed as "God made manifest and universal Saviour of human life", and his successor Augustus was called the "ancestral God and Saviour of the whole human race" (Man and his Gods, Homer Smith, Little, Brown & Co., Boston, 1952). Emperor Nero (54-68), whose original name was Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus (37-68), was immortalised on his coins as the "Saviour of mankind" (ibid.). The Divine Julius as Roman Saviour and "Father of the Empire" was considered "God" among the Roman rabble for more than 300 years. He was the deity in some Western presbyters' texts, but was not recognised in Eastern or Oriental writings.

Constantine's intention at Nicaea was to create an entirely new god for his empire who would unite all religious factions under one deity. Presbyters were asked to debate and decide who their new god would be. Delegates argued among themselves, expressing personal motives for inclusion of particular writings that promoted the finer traits of their own special deity. Throughout the meeting, howling factions were immersed in heated debates, and the names of 53 gods were tabled for discussion. "As yet, no God had been selected by the council, and so they balloted in order to determine that matter... For one year and five months the balloting lasted..." (God's Book of Eskra, Prof. S. L. MacGuire's translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter xlviii, paragraphs 36, 41).
At the end of that time, Constantine returned to the gathering to discover that the presbyters had not agreed on a new deity but had balloted down to a shortlist of five prospects: Caesar, Krishna, Mithra, Horus and Zeus (Historia Ecclesiastica, Eusebius, c. 325). Constantine was the ruling spirit at Nicaea and he ultimately decided upon a new god for them. To involve British factions, he ruled that the name of the great Druid god, Hesus, be joined with the Eastern Saviour-god, Krishna (Krishna is Sanskrit for Christ), and thus Hesus Krishna would be the official name of the new Roman god. A vote was taken and it was with a majority show of hands (161 votes to 157) that both divinities became one God. Following longstanding heathen custom, Constantine used the official gathering and the Roman apotheosis decree to legally deify two deities as one, and did so by democratic consent. A new god was proclaimed and "officially" ratified by Constantine (Acta Concilii Nicaeni, 1618). That purely political act of deification effectively and legally placed Hesus and Krishna among the Roman gods as one individual composite. That abstraction lent Earthly existence to amalgamated doctrines for the Empire's new religion; and because there was no letter "J" in alphabets until around the ninth century, the name subsequently evolved into "Jesus Christ".

How the Gospels were created
Constantine then instructed Eusebius to organise the compilation of a uniform collection of new writings developed from primary aspects of the religious texts submitted at the council. His instructions were:
"Search ye these books, and whatever is good in them, that retain; but whatsoever is evil, that cast away. What is good in one book, unite ye with that which is good in another book. And whatsoever is thus brought together shall be called The Book of Books. And it shall be the doctrine of my people, which I will recommend unto all nations, that there shall be no more war for religions' sake."
(God's Book of Eskra, op. cit., chapter xlviii, paragraph 31)

"Make them to astonish" said Constantine, and "the books were written accordingly" (Life of Constantine, vol. iv, pp. 36-39). Eusebius amalgamated the "legendary tales of all the religious doctrines of the world together as one", using the standard god-myths from the presbyters' manuscripts as his exemplars. Merging the supernatural "god" stories of Mithra and Krishna with British Culdean beliefs effectively joined the orations of Eastern and Western presbyters together "to form a new universal belief" (ibid.). Constantine believed that the amalgamated collection of myths would unite variant and opposing religious factions under one representative story. Eusebius then arranged for scribes to produce "fifty sumptuous copies ... to be written on parchment in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable form, by professional scribes thoroughly accomplished in their art" (ibid.). "These orders," said Eusebius, "were followed by the immediate execution of the work itself ... we sent him [Constantine] magnificently and elaborately bound volumes of three-fold and four-fold forms" (Life of Constantine, vol. iv, p. 36). They were the "New Testimonies", and this is the first mention (c. 331) of the New Testament in the historical record.
With his instructions fulfilled, Constantine then decreed that the New Testimonies would thereafter be called the "word of the Roman Saviour God" (Life of Constantine, vol. iii, p. 29) and official to all presbyters sermonising in the Roman Empire. He then ordered earlier presbyterial manuscripts and the records of the council "burnt" and declared that "any man found concealing writings should be stricken off from his shoulders" (beheaded) (ibid.). As the record shows, presbyterial writings previous to the Council of Nicaea no longer exist, except for some fragments that have survived.
Some council records also survived, and they provide alarming ramifications for the Church.Some old documents say that the First Council of Nicaea ended in mid-November 326, while others say the struggle to establish a god was so fierce that it extended "for four years and seven months" from its beginning in June 325 (Secrets of the Christian Fathers, op. cit.). Regardless of when it ended, the savagery and violence it encompassed were concealed under the glossy title "Great and Holy Synod", assigned to the assembly by the Church in the 18th century. Earlier Churchmen, however, expressed a different opinion.

The Second Council of Nicaea in 786-87 denounced the First Council of Nicaea as "a synod of fools and madmen" and sought to annul "decisions passed by men with troubled brains" (History of the Christian Church, H. H. Milman, DD, 1871). If one chooses to read the records of the Second Nicaean Council and notes references to "affrighted bishops" and the "soldiery" needed to "quell proceedings", the "fools and madmen" declaration is surely an example of the pot calling the kettle black.
Constantine died in 337 and his outgrowth of many now-called pagan beliefs into a new religious system brought many converts. Later Church writers made him "the great champion of Christianity" which he gave "legal status as the religion of the Roman Empire" (Encyclopedia of the Roman Empire, Matthew Bunson, Facts on File, New York, 1994, p. 86). Historical records reveal this to be incorrect, for it was "self-interest" that led him to create Christianity (A Smaller Classical Dictionary, J. M. Dent, London, 1910, p. 161). Yet it wasn't called "Christianity" until the 15th century (How The Great Pan Died, Professor Edmond S. Bordeaux [Vatican archivist], Mille Meditations, USA, MCMLXVIII, pp. 45-7).
Over the ensuing centuries, Constantine's New Testimonies were expanded upon, "interpolations" were added and other writings included (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, pp. 135-137; also, Pecci ed., vol. ii, pp. 121-122). For example, in 397 John "golden-mouthed" Chrysostom restructured the writings of Apollonius of Tyana, a first-century wandering sage, and made them part of the New Testimonies (Secrets of the Christian Fathers, op. cit.). The Latinised name for Apollonius is Paulus (A Latin-English Dictionary, J. T. White and J. E. Riddle, Ginn & Heath, Boston, 1880), and the Church today calls those writings the Epistles of Paul. Apollonius's personal attendant, Damis, an Assyrian scribe, is Demis in the New Testament (2 Tim. 4:10).

The Church hierarchy knows the truth about the origin of its Epistles, for Cardinal Bembo (d. 1547), secretary to Pope Leo X (d. 1521), advised his associate, Cardinal Sadoleto, to disregard them, saying "put away these trifles, for such absurdities do not become a man of dignity; they were introduced on the scene later by a sly voice from heaven" (Cardinal Bembo: His Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, A. L. Collins, London, 1842 reprint).
The Church admits that the Epistles of Paul are forgeries, saying, "Even the genuine Epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of their authors" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vii, p. 645). Likewise, St Jerome (d. 420) declared that the Acts of the Apostles, the fifth book of the New Testament, was also "falsely written" ("The Letters of Jerome", Library of the Fathers, Oxford Movement, 1833-45, vol. v, p. 445).

The shock discovery of an ancient Bible
The New Testament subsequently evolved into a fulsome piece of priesthood propaganda, and the Church claimed it recorded the intervention of a divine Jesus Christ into Earthly affairs. However, a spectacular discovery in a remote Egyptian monastery revealed to the world the extent of later falsifications of the Christian texts, themselves only an "assemblage of legendary tales" (Encyclopédie, Diderot, 1759). On 4 February 1859, 346 leaves of an ancient codex were discovered in the furnace room at St Catherine's monastery at Mt Sinai, and its contents sent shockwaves through the Christian world. Along with other old codices, it was scheduled to be burned in the kilns to provide winter warmth for the inhabitants of the monastery. Written in Greek on donkey skins, it carried both the Old and New Testaments, and later in time archaeologists dated its composition to around the year 380. It was discovered by Dr Constantin von Tischendorf (1815-1874), a brilliant and pious German biblical scholar, and he called it the Sinaiticus, the Sinai Bible. Tischendorf was a professor of theology who devoted his entire life to the study of New Testament origins, and his desire to read all the ancient Christian texts led him on the long, camel-mounted journey to St Catherine's Monastery.
During his lifetime, Tischendorf had access to other ancient Bibles unavailable to the public, such as the Alexandrian (or Alexandrinus) Bible, believed to be the second oldest Bible in the world. It was so named because in 1627 it was taken from Alexandria to Britain and gifted to King Charles I (1600-49). Today it is displayed alongside the world's oldest known Bible, the Sinaiticus, in the British Library in London. During his research, Tischendorf had access to the Vaticanus, the Vatican Bible, believed to be the third oldest in the world and dated to the mid-sixth century (The Various Versions of the Bible, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, 1874, available in the British Library). It was locked away in the Vatican's inner library. Tischendorf asked if he could extract handwritten notes, but his request was declined. However, when his guard took refreshment breaks, Tischendorf wrote comparative narratives on the palm of his hand and sometimes on his fingernails ("Are Our Gospels Genuine or Not?", Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, lecture, 1869, available in the British Library).

Today, there are several other Bibles written in various languages during the fifth and sixth centuries, examples being the Syriacus, the Cantabrigiensis (Bezae), the Sarravianus and the Marchalianus.
A shudder of apprehension echoed through Christendom in the last quarter of the 19th century when English-language versions of the Sinai Bible were published. Recorded within these pages is information that disputes Christianity's claim of historicity. Christians were provided with irrefutable evidence of wilful falsifications in all modern New Testaments. So different was the Sinai Bible's New Testament from versions then being published that the Church angrily tried to annul the dramatic new evidence that challenged its very existence. In a series of articles published in the London Quarterly Review in 1883, John W. Burgon, Dean of Chichester, used every rhetorical device at his disposal to attack the Sinaiticus' earlier and opposing story of Jesus Christ, saying that "...without a particle of hesitation, the Sinaiticus is scandalously corrupt ... exhibiting the most shamefully mutilated texts which are anywhere to be met with; they have become, by whatever process, the depositories of the largest amount of fabricated readings, ancient blunders and intentional perversions of the truth which are discoverable in any known copies of the word of God". Dean Burgon's concerns mirror opposing aspects of Gospel stories then current, having by now evolved to a new stage through centuries of tampering with the fabric of an already unhistorical document.

The revelations of ultraviolet light testing
In 1933, the British Museum in London purchased the Sinai Bible from the Soviet government for £100,000, of which £65,000 was gifted by public subscription. Prior to the acquisition, this Bible was displayed in the Imperial Library in St Petersburg, Russia, and "few scholars had set eyes on it" (The Daily Telegraph and Morning Post, 11 January 1938, p. 3). When it went on display in 1933 as "the oldest Bible in the world" (ibid.), it became the centre of a pilgrimage unequalled in the history of the British Museum.
Before I summarise its conflictions, it should be noted that this old codex is by no means a reliable guide to New Testament study as it contains superabundant errors and serious re-editing. These anomalies were exposed as a result of the months of ultraviolet-light tests carried out at the British Museum in the mid-1930s. The findings revealed replacements of numerous passages by at least nine different editors. Photographs taken during testing revealed that ink pigments had been retained deep in the pores of the skin. The original words were readable under ultraviolet light. Anybody wishing to read the results of the tests should refer to the book written by the researchers who did the analysis: the Keepers of the Department of Manuscripts at the British Museum (Scribes and Correctors of the Codex Sinaiticus, H. J. M. Milne and T. C. Skeat, British Museum, London, 1938).

Forgery in the Gospels
When the New Testament in the Sinai Bible is compared with a modern-day New Testament, a staggering 14,800 editorial alterations can be identified. These amendments can be recognised by a simple comparative exercise that anybody can and should do. Serious study of Christian origins must emanate from the Sinai Bible's version of the New Testament, not modern editions.
Of importance is the fact that the Sinaiticus carries three Gospels since rejected: the Shepherd of Hermas (written by two resurrected ghosts, Charinus and Lenthius), the Missive of Barnabas and the Odes of Solomon. Space excludes elaboration on these bizarre writings and also discussion on dilemmas associated with translation variations.
Modern Bibles are five removes in translation from early editions, and disputes rage between translators over variant interpretations of more than 5,000 ancient words. However, it is what is not written in that old Bible that embarrasses the Church, and this article discusses only a few of those omissions. One glaring example is subtly revealed in the Encyclopaedia Biblica (Adam & Charles Black, London, 1899, vol. iii, p. 3344), where the Church divulges its knowledge about exclusions in old Bibles, saying: "The remark has long ago and often been made that, like Paul, even the earliest Gospels knew nothing of the miraculous birth of our Saviour". That is because there never was a virgin birth.
It is apparent that when Eusebius assembled scribes to write the New Testimonies, he first produced a single document that provided an exemplar or master version. Today it is called the Gospel of Mark, and the Church admits that it was "the first Gospel written" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 657), even though it appears second in the New Testament today. The scribes of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke were dependent upon the Mark writing as the source and framework for the compilation of their works. The Gospel of John is independent of those writings, and the late-15th-century theory that it was written later to support the earlier writings is the truth (The Crucifixion of Truth, Tony Bushby, Joshua Books, 2004, pp. 33-40).

Thus, the Gospel of Mark in the Sinai Bible carries the "first" story of Jesus Christ in history, one completely different to what is in modern Bibles. It starts with Jesus "at about the age of thirty" (Mark 1:9), and doesn't know of Mary, a virgin birth or mass murders of baby boys by Herod. Words describing Jesus Christ as "the son of God" do not appear in the opening narrative as they do in today's editions (Mark 1:1), and the modern-day family tree tracing a "messianic bloodline" back to King David is non-existent in all ancient Bibles, as are the now-called "messianic prophecies" (51 in total). The Sinai Bible carries a conflicting version of events surrounding the "raising of Lazarus", and reveals an extraordinary omission that later became the central doctrine of the Christian faith: the resurrection appearances of Jesus Christ and his ascension into Heaven. No supernatural appearance of a resurrected Jesus Christ is recorded in any ancient Gospels of Mark, but a description of over 500 words now appears in modern Bibles (Mark 16:9-20).
Despite a multitude of long-drawn-out self-justifications by Church apologists, there is no unanimity of Christian opinion regarding the non-existence of "resurrection" appearances in ancient Gospel accounts of the story. Not only are those narratives missing in the Sinai Bible, but they are absent in the Alexandrian Bible, the Vatican Bible, the Bezae Bible and an ancient Latin manuscript of Mark, code-named "K" by analysts. They are also lacking in the oldest Armenian version of the New Testament, in sixth-century manuscripts of the Ethiopic version and ninth-century Anglo-Saxon Bibles. However, some 12th-century Gospels have the now-known resurrection verses written within asterisksÑmarks used by scribes to indicate spurious passages in a literary document.

The Church claims that "the resurrection is the fundamental argument for our Christian belief" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xii, p. 792), yet no supernatural appearance of a resurrected Jesus Christ is recorded in any of the earliest Gospels of Mark available. A resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ is the sine qua non ("without which, nothing") of Christianity (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xii, p. 792), confirmed by words attributed to Paul: "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain" (1 Cor. 5:17). The resurrection verses in today's Gospels of Mark are universally acknowledged as forgeries and the Church agrees, saying "the conclusion of Mark is admittedly not genuine ... almost the entire section is a later compilation" (Encyclopaedia Biblica, vol. ii, p. 1880, vol. iii, pp. 1767, 1781; also, Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. iii, under the heading "The Evidence of its Spuriousness"; Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, pp. 274-9 under heading "Canons"). Undaunted, however, the Church accepted the forgery into its dogma and made it the basis of Christianity.
The trend of fictitious resurrection narratives continues. The final chapter of the Gospel of John (21) is a sixth-century forgery, one entirely devoted to describing Jesus' resurrection to his disciples. The Church admits: "The sole conclusion that can be deduced from this is that the 21st chapter was afterwards added and is therefore to be regarded as an appendix to the Gospel" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. viii, pp. 441-442; New Catholic Encyclopedia (NCE), "Gospel of John", p. 1080; also NCE, vol. xii, p. 407).

"The Great Insertion" and "The Great Omission"
Modern-day versions of the Gospel of Luke have a staggering 10,000 more words than the same Gospel in the Sinai Bible. Six of those words say of Jesus "and was carried up into heaven", but this narrative does not appear in any of the oldest Gospels of Luke available today ("Three Early Doctrinal Modifications of the Text of the Gospels", F. C. Conybeare, The Hibbert Journal, London, vol. 1, no. 1, Oct 1902, pp. 96-113). Ancient versions do not verify modern-day accounts of an ascension of Jesus Christ, and this falsification clearly indicates an intention to deceive.
Today, the Gospel of Luke is the longest of the canonical Gospels because it now includes "The Great Insertion", an extraordinary 15th-century addition totalling around 8,500 words (Luke 9:51-18:14). The insertion of these forgeries into that Gospel bewilders modern Christian analysts, and of them the Church said: "The character of these passages makes it dangerous to draw inferences" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Pecci ed., vol. ii, p. 407).
Just as remarkable, the oldest Gospels of Luke omit all verses from 6:45 to 8:26, known in priesthood circles as "The Great Omission", a total of 1,547 words. In today's versions, that hole has been "plugged up" with passages plagiarised from other Gospels. Dr Tischendorf found that three paragraphs in newer versions of the Gospel of Luke's version of the Last Supper appeared in the 15th century, but the Church still passes its Gospels off as the unadulterated "word of God" ("Are Our Gospels Genuine or Not?", op. cit.)

The "Expurgatory Index"
As was the case with the New Testament, so also were damaging writings of early "Church Fathers" modified in centuries of copying, and many of their records were intentionally rewritten or suppressed.
Adopting the decrees of the Council of Trent (1545-63), the Church subsequently extended the process of erasure and ordered the preparation of a special list of specific information to be expunged from early Christian writings (Delineation of Roman Catholicism, Rev. Charles Elliott, DD, G. Lane & P. P. Sandford, New York, 1842, p. 89; also, The Vatican Censors, Professor Peter Elmsley, Oxford, p. 327, pub. date n/a).
In 1562, the Vatican established a special censoring office called Index Expurgatorius. Its purpose was to prohibit publication of "erroneous passages of the early Church Fathers" that carried statements opposing modern-day doctrine.
When Vatican archivists came across "genuine copies of the Fathers, they corrected them according to the Expurgatory Index" (Index Expurgatorius Vaticanus, R. Gibbings, ed., Dublin, 1837; The Literary Policy of the Church of Rome, Joseph Mendham, J. Duncan, London, 1830, 2nd ed., 1840; The Vatican Censors, op. cit., p. 328). This Church record provides researchers with "grave doubts about the value of all patristic writings released to the public" (The Propaganda Press of Rome, Sir James W. L. Claxton, Whitehaven Books, London, 1942, p. 182).
Important for our story is the fact that the Encyclopaedia Biblica reveals that around 1,200 years of Christian history are unknown: "Unfortunately, only few of the records [of the Church] prior to the year 1198 have been released". It was not by chance that, in that same year (1198), Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) suppressed all records of earlier Church history by establishing the Secret Archives (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xv, p. 287). Some seven-and-a-half centuries later, and after spending some years in those Archives, Professor Edmond S. Bordeaux wrote How The Great Pan Died. In a chapter titled "The Whole of Church History is Nothing but a Retroactive Fabrication", he said this (in part):
"The Church ante-dated all her late works, some newly made, some revised and some counterfeited, which contained the final expression of her history ... her technique was to make it appear that much later works written by Church writers were composed a long time earlier, so that they might become evidence of the first, second or third centuries."
(How The Great Pan Died, op. cit., p. 46)

Supporting Professor Bordeaux's findings is the fact that, in 1587, Pope Sixtus V (1585-90) established an official Vatican publishing division and said in his own words, "Church history will be now be established ... we shall seek to print our own account"Encyclopédie, Diderot, 1759). Vatican records also reveal that Sixtus V spent 18 months of his life as pope personally writing a new Bible and then introduced into Catholicism a "New Learning" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. v, p. 442, vol. xv, p. 376). The evidence that the Church wrote its own history is found in Diderot's Encyclopédie, and it reveals the reason why Pope Clement XIII (1758-69) ordered all volumes to be destroyed immediately after publication in 1759.

Gospel authors exposed as imposters
There is something else involved in this scenario and it is recorded in the Catholic Encyclopedia. An appreciation of the clerical mindset arises when the Church itself admits that it does not know who wrote its Gospels and Epistles, confessing that all 27 New Testament writings began life anonymously:
"It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the evangelists themselves ... they [the New Testament collection] are supplied with titles which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those writings." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, pp. 655-6)

The Church maintains that "the titles of our Gospels were not intended to indicate authorship", adding that "the headings ... were affixed to them" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. i, p. 117, vol. vi, pp. 655, 656). Therefore they are not Gospels written "according to Matthew, Mark, Luke or John", as publicly stated. The full force of this confession reveals that there are no genuine apostolic Gospels, and that the Church's shadowy writings today embody the very ground and pillar of Christian foundations and faith. The consequences are fatal to the pretence of Divine origin of the entire New Testament and expose Christian texts as having no special authority. For centuries, fabricated Gospels bore Church certification of authenticity now confessed to be false, and this provides evidence that Christian writings are wholly fallacious.
After years of dedicated New Testament research, Dr Tischendorf expressed dismay at the differences between the oldest and newest Gospels, and had trouble understanding...
"...how scribes could allow themselves to bring in here and there changes which were not simply verbal ones, but such as materially affected the very meaning and, what is worse still, did not shrink from cutting out a passage or inserting one."
(Alterations to the Sinai Bible, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, 1863, available in the British Library, London)

After years of validating the fabricated nature of the New Testament, a disillusioned Dr Tischendorf confessed that modern-day editions have "been altered in many places" and are "not to be accepted as true" (When Were Our Gospels Written?, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, 1865, British Library, London).

Just what is Christianity?
The important question then to ask is this: if the New Testament is not historical, what is it?
Dr Tischendorf provided part of the answer when he said in his 15,000 pages of critical notes on the Sinai Bible that "it seems that the personage of Jesus Christ was made narrator for many religions". This explains how narratives from the ancient Indian epic, the Mahabharata, appear verbatim in the Gospels today (e.g., Matt. 1:25, 2:11, 8:1-4, 9:1-8, 9:18-26), and why passages from the Phenomena of the Greek statesman Aratus of Sicyon (271-213 BC) are in the New Testament.
Extracts from the Hymn to Zeus, written by Greek philosopher Cleanthes (c. 331-232 BC), are also found in the Gospels, as are 207 words from the Thais of Menander (c. 343-291), one of the "seven wise men" of Greece. Quotes from the semi-legendary Greek poet Epimenides (7th or 6th century BC) are applied to the lips of Jesus Christ, and seven passages from the curious Ode of Jupiter (c. 150 BC; author unknown) are reprinted in the New Testament.
Tischendorf's conclusion also supports Professor Bordeaux's Vatican findings that reveal the allegory of Jesus Christ derived from the fable of Mithra, the divine son of God (Ahura Mazda) and messiah of the first kings of the Persian Empire around 400 BC. His birth in a grotto was attended by magi who followed a star from the East. They brought "gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh" (as in Matt. 2:11) and the newborn baby was adored by shepherds. He came into the world wearing the Mithraic cap, which popes imitated in various designs until well into the 15th century.
Mithra, one of a trinity, stood on a rock, the emblem of the foundation of his religion, and was anointed with honey. After a last supper with Helios and 11 other companions, Mithra was crucified on a cross, bound in linen, placed in a rock tomb and rose on the third day or around 25 March (the full moon at the spring equinox, a time now called Easter after the Babylonian goddess Ishtar). The fiery destruction of the universe was a major doctrine of Mithraism-a time in which Mithra promised to return in person to Earth and save deserving souls. Devotees of Mithra partook in a sacred communion banquet of bread and wine, a ceremony that paralleled the Christian Eucharist and preceded it by more than four centuries.
Christianity is an adaptation of Mithraism welded with the Druidic principles of the Culdees, some Egyptian elements (the pre-Christian Book of Revelation was originally called The Mysteries of Osiris and Isis), Greek philosophy and various aspects of Hinduism.

Why there are no records of Jesus Christ
It is not possible to find in any legitimate religious or historical writings compiled between the beginning of the first century and well into the fourth century any reference to Jesus Christ and the spectacular events that the Church says accompanied his life. This confirmation comes from Frederic Farrar (1831-1903) of Trinity College, Cambridge:
"It is amazing that history has not embalmed for us even one certain or definite saying or circumstance in the life of the Saviour of mankind ... there is no statement in all history that says anyone saw Jesus or talked with him. Nothing in history is more astonishing than the silence of contemporary writers about events relayed in the four Gospels."
(The Life of Christ, Frederic W. Farrar, Cassell, London, 1874)

This situation arises from a conflict between history and New Testament narratives. Dr Tischendorf made this comment:
"We must frankly admit that we have no source of information with respect to the life of Jesus Christ other than ecclesiastic writings assembled during the fourth century."
(Codex Sinaiticus, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, British Library, London)

There is an explanation for those hundreds of years of silence: the construct of Christianity did not begin until after the first quarter of the fourth century, and that is why Pope Leo X (d. 1521) called Christ a "fable" (Cardinal Bembo: His Letters..., op. cit.).

ThrillsNSpills
01-07-2010, 05:12 PM
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