What about the word NO doesn't Obama and Congress understand?

[BigBadBrian]

Obama puts forward $1 trillion health care plan

Feb 22, 10:01 AM (ET)

By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR
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WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama is putting forward a nearly $1 trillion, 10-year health care plan that would allow the government to deny or roll back egregious insurance premium increases that infuriated consumers.

Posted Monday morning on the White House Web site, the plan would provide coverage to more than 31 million Americans now uninsured without adding to the federal deficit.

It conspicuously omits a government insurance plan sought by liberals.

But it's uncertain that such an ambitions plan can pass, since Republicans are virtually all opposed and some Democrats who last year supported sweeping health care changes are having second thoughts. After a year in pursuit of his top domestic priority, Obama may have to settle for a modest fallback.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama is making a fresh attempt to rescue his health care overhaul by proposing a measure that would allow the government to deny or roll back egregious insurance premium increases that infuriate consumers.

Coming just days before a White House health care summit with congressional leaders of both parties, Obama's legislative proposal, which will be unveiled later Monday, likely represents the president's last chance to salvage his signature issue.

A White House official, speaking on condition of anonymity because details have not yet been officially released, said the insurance rate proposal would give the federal Health and Human Services Department - in conjunction with state authorities - the power to deny substantial premium increases, limit them, or demand rebates for consumers.

In this initiative, the administration seemingly is playing directly to the same kind of public skepticism that has endangered the medical care system remake all along. Health care reform was a front-burner issue for Obama and majority Democrats in Congress until a little known Republican, Scott Brown, shocked the political establishment last month by defeating Massachusetts Democrat Martha Coakley in a special election to choose a successor for the late Sen. Edward Kennedy.

Recent premium hikes of as much as 39 percent sought by Anthem Blue Cross in California have given Obama a new argument for his sweeping health care remake, stalled in Congress since Democrats lost their 60th Senate seat in a special election last month in Massachusetts.

The proposal for tighter oversight of insurers is modeled on legislation proposed by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., and will be part of a broader plan the White House plans to post on its Web site at 10 a.m. Monday, ahead of Thursday's health care summit.

Until now, Obama has argued what should and should not be in a health care overhaul, but the legislation itself has largely been left up to majority Democrats in Congress to draft. It's the most detailed proposal yet to come from Obama.

His plan is expected to require most Americans to carry health insurance coverage, with federal subsidies to help many afford the premiums. Hewing close to a stalled Senate bill, it would bar insurance companies from denying coverage to people with medical problems or charging them more. A tax on high-cost health insurance plans objected to by House Democrats - and labor unions - would be scaled back. The expected price tag is around $1 trillion over 10 years.

Republicans have already served notice they'll continue to oppose it. They want Obama to start over with the goal of producing a more modest bill that tries to curb costs and helps small businesses and people with health problems secure coverage.

The summit at Blair House, the White House guest residence, will be televised live on C-SPAN and perhaps on cable news networks. It represents a risky and unusual gamble by the administration that Obama can save his embattled overhaul through persuasion - on live TV.

Brown's victory in Massachusetts reduced the Democrats' majority in the Senate to 59 votes, one shy of the number needed to knock down Republican delaying tactics.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said Sunday he would participate, but insisted Obama and congressional Democrats would be wrong to push the bills they wrote in the House and Senate.

"The fundamental point I want to make is the arrogance of all of this. You know, they are saying: 'Ignore the wishes of the American people. We know more about this than you do. And we're going to jam it down your throats no matter what.' That is why the public is so angry at this Congress and this administration over this issue," said McConnell, R-Ky, speaking on "Fox News Sunday."

Thursday's meeting will take place nearly a year after Obama launched his drive to remake health care - a Democratic agenda item for decades - at an earlier summit he infused with a bipartisan spirit. The president will point out that Republicans have supported individual elements of the Democratic bills.

Under the Obama plan, regulators would create a competitive marketplace for small businesses and people buying their own coverage. The plan would be paid for with a mix of Medicare cuts and tax increases. It would also strip out special Medicaid deals for certain states, while moving to close the Medicare prescription coverage gap and making newly available coverage for working families more affordable.

Oversight of insurance companies has traditionally been a state responsibility. The proposal for a new federal role calls for setting up a new seven-member Health Insurance Rate Authority that would monitor insurance industry behavior and issue an annual report. States that beef up their consumer protection programs would be eligible for a share of $250 million in federal grants.

People buying insurance coverage on their own would stand to gain the most, since big company plans are now exempt from state oversight.

My Way News - Obama puts forward $1 trillion health care plan (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100222/D9E19OD80.html)

[hideyoursheep]

Why do you hate Americans, BBB?

You don't want them all to be healthy?

[Seshmeister]

More importantly why does Brian not think the US people should get healthcare reform when most of them voted for it?

[BigBadBrian]

Why do you hate Americans, BBB?



Is this the new liberal response when you guys can't rebut an argument?

I see it alot when you guys have nothing else to say.

[BigBadBrian]

More importantly why does Brian not think the US people should get healthcare reform when most of them voted for it?

While most people, myself included, are for some kind of reform, most are against Obama's version of it.

"President Obama this week called for a televised bipartisan summit to get his health care reform plan back on track, but 61% of U.S. voters say Congress should scrap that plan and start all over again."

Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform)

[BigBadBrian]

You don't want them all to be healthy?

Yes, as long as it's a system where he government doesn't run things and everyone has to pay something into their health coverage so they have a stake in it. No freebies.

We don't want a failed system like the UK's NHS.

[Seshmeister]

For a failed system it looks pretty shit hot compared to yours. :)

UK heart surgeons are among the best in the world (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC517636/)



UK heart surgeons are among the best in the world

Zosia Kmietowicz
London

The most thorough investigation ever into individual surgeons' performance at the operating table has found that the United Kingdom's cardiac surgeons are among the best in the world, with more adults surviving surgery despite patients being sicker and older than elsewhere.

All 222 cardiac surgeons who operate on adults in the United Kingdom met safety limits laid down by the Society of Cardiothoracic Surgeons, with none working at a mortality higher than 6% for coronary bypass surgery and many with much lower rates.​rates.

Of almost 25 000 bypass operations done in the United Kingdom each year, the average mortality for 2003 was 1.8%, slightly less than that reported by surgeons in the United States. Professor Bruce Keogh, president elect of the society and author of the report, however, acknowledged that American surgeons deal with a more complex case mix, with many more obese and diabetic patients than UK surgeons, which accounted for the difference in outcomes.



This is surgery on everyone from the homeless up for no charge to the patient and spending half as much per capita as the US. You could do with a failure like that...

[BigBadBrian]

This is surgery on everyone from the homeless up for no charge to the patient and spending half as much per capita as the US. You could do with a failure like that...

If they don't die before they get in.

[Seshmeister]

No we bring them back to life for nothing too. :)

[ELVIS]

Madam, we can save your husbands heart. Where would you like it sent?


Cheers!


:biggrin:

[Seshmeister]

We need them for the haggis. :)

[BigBadBrian]

No we bring them back to life for nothing too. :)

So is that why Scots have pale, pasty complexions...they are dead? Or just braindead like you? :tongue0011:

[kwame k]

I'll agree, I hate the fucking lame ass shit they are trying to peddle as Health Care Reform now....I am among the majority of people who think this bill needs to be scraped but when reading things like this;


Anthem Blue Cross, a subsidiary of WellPoint Inc., has been under fire for a week from regulators and politicians for notifying some of its 800,000 individual policyholders in California that it plans to raise rates by up to 39 percent March 1.

The Anthem Blue Cross plan in Maine is asking for increases of about 23 percent this year for some individual policyholders. Last year, they raised rates up to 32 percent.

Kansas had one recent case where one insurer wanting to raise most individual rates 20 percent to 30 percent was persuaded by state insurance officials to reduce the increases to 10 percent to 20 percent. The insurance department would not identify the company but said it was not Anthem.

And in Oregon, multiple insurers were granted rate hikes of 15 percent or more this year after increases of around 25 percent last year for customers who purchase individual health insurance, rather than getting it through their employer.

Premiums are far more volatile for individual policies than for those bought by employers and other large groups, which have bargaining clout and a sizable pool of people among which to spread risk. As more people have lost jobs, many who are healthy have decided to go without health insurance or get a bare-bones, high-deductible policy, reducing the amount of premiums insurers receive.

Steep rate hikes in this sliver of the insurance market — about 13 million Americans, as of 2008 — have popped up sporadically for years. Experts see them becoming increasingly common.

"You're going to see rate increases of 20, 25, 30 percent" for individual health policies in the near term, Sandy Praeger, chairwoman of the health insurance and managed care committee for the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, predicted Friday.
Most states don't have the legal authority to block or reduce health insurance rate increases, Praeger noted. Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100213/ap_on_he_me/us_insurance_rates_states;_ylt=Agb6Z_yUAcuAqI4EZDo ANF3VJRIF;_ylu=X3oDMTJ1MzE3NGtoBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTA wMjEzL3VzX2luc3VyYW5jZV9yYXRlc19zdGF0ZXMEcG9zAzQEc 2VjA3luX2FydGljbGVfc3VtbWFyeV9saXN0BHNsawNpbmRpdml kdWFsaW4-)

The thing is the Democrats are fucking pussies and squandered their super majority, period. They caved into the big bad Repukes. Hell, Dubya had 13 less seats than the Demos have now and did whatever the fuck he wanted.

The problem is.......regulation has become the boogie man word. OH NO!!!! The government wants to rule us and tell us what to do. Death Panels, Nazism, and the likes. The Repukes are so bent on ruining the Demos that they'll do it in spite ruining the American people.

You mental midgets never even consider how your daily life is regulated by the government already....from the food you eat to the car you drive. The Repukes now are the party of un-regulations? Great, do away with the FDA because by your standards we shouldn't tell business to have a minimum standard for the food we eat.

Regulations are not necessarily a bad thing and I see nothing the Repukes are offering other than becoming the Party of No. You got a better idea on how to stop the rampant corruption that goes on in the Health Care Industry. Raising rates just because you feel like it and business practices that are unethical to say the least.....bring it the fuck on.

Either be part of the solution or you are the fucking problem, period. Your lame ass Obama is a socialist, communist or whatever 'ist you fear mongers can come up with is nothing more than buying into the rhetoric of the mid-term elections. The Repukes stand for nothing.....don't preach about lower taxes and less government because taxes were lowered and over the last 10 years you guys with a majority in Washington increased government by more than any Democrat has......Home Land Security and The Patriot Act just to name two.I know it's OK to bloat the government on your watch because we are fighting Terra'ist. You ruined this country and you continue to do so. Anyone who believes differently better look at the facts.

Vote in all the Repukes you want in the mid-terms......then you'll be living the definition of insanity.....doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Hold on to your wallet's folks, Obama's latest HEALTH CARE proposal is laden with new taxes.:pullinghair:

[kwame k]

Hold on to your wallet's folks, Obama's latest HEALTH CARE proposal is laden with new taxes.:pullinghair:

Phew, glad to know it's Obama's fault that.........
The Anthem Blue Cross plan in Maine is asking for increases of about 23 percent this year for some individual policyholders. Last year, they raised rates up to 32 percent.
.......Anthem has raised their rates 55% on some people in the last year.

One of the single biggest expense for individuals and small businesses is Health Care but let's not let the facts get in the way of good clean Rove-like scare tactics.

[Satan]

Yes, as long as it's a system where he government doesn't run things and everyone has to pay something into their health coverage so they have a stake in it. No freebies.

We don't want a failed system like the UK's NHS.

So you want mandated corporate insurance?

Well, if that's the case, why are you bitching, since that's what this current plan is?

Even more ironic that this is coming from you. Wouldn't you say the Veterans "socialized medicine" plan works well for the most part. And Medicare, for that matter. Not to mention the evidence of every other "civilized" nation on this planet, and even a few that you wouldn't consider "civilized".

People are literally dying from lack of health care, and an industry which serves no valid purpose is making billions from their suffering.

This country needs to step into the 21st century and take the profit motive out of health care.

[Unchainme]

More importantly why does Brian not think the US people should get healthcare reform when most of them voted for it?

Urrr..Nobody voted for Obama for that reason in particular.

It was more like a middle finger to the Bush administration and the republican party for a fucked up 8 years.

I think overall though, people are pissed off at the government at the very moment.

Also, I'm not so much against socialized health care, but I am bit tired of seeing the country go further into debt and having the chicoms finance it (This is the fault of every pres. in the past 30 years NOT just Obama, though he doesn't escape blame either), while the US economy is ultimately in the shitter.

Lets fix those problems first, get those out of the way, then we can work on trying to be like the Canucks if we want. :).

[Nitro Express]

I see it as economic warfare. The insurance industry has Obama, Pelosi, and Reid bought and paid for and they want their fascist health care (buy it or go to jail) before the new Congress takes place next year. So let's spike the insurance premiums so people lose their coverage and heard them to the government plan because they will be so desperate they won't care. Good old corporate America at work.

[Nitro Express]

This is not socialized healthcare. It's healthcare where the government becomes the collection agency and if you don't pay, you go to jail and pay a fine. Nothing has changed, they will repacked the pitch and then try and get what they want behind closed doors again using every trick in the book.

[Nitro Express]

All I can say is the health insurance and pharmacutical industry must have offered some juicy perks and bribes to the politicians because these fuckers and motivated and won't give up. They pretty much know they are going to be voted out next November anyways or maybe they are so aloof they don't get it. The emporer has no cloths possibly.

[Nitro Express]

It's so obvious. The collusion. The insurance companies jack the premiums to the heavens just in time for Obama's new healthcare plan announcement. It's too obvious.

[Nickdfresh]

While most people, myself included, are for some kind of reform, most are against Obama's version of it.

"President Obama this week called for a televised bipartisan summit to get his health care reform plan back on track, but 61% of U.S. voters say Congress should scrap that plan and start all over again."

Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform)

Most people are for a more stringent, less watered down and pussified version of Heath Reform that wasn't skull-fucked by the Insurance Lobby bleeping talking points to mindless little drones like you...

And if a lack of Health Care reform will be "Obama's downfall," so will it be the downfall of the Grand Old Party of No!...

[Nickdfresh]

So is that why Scots have pale, pasty complexions...they are dead? Or just braindead like you? :tongue0011:

You shouldn't talk about countries you can't locate on a map...:)

[kwame k]

You shouldn't talk about countries you can't locate on a map...:)

....bullshit, Nick. He knows where Africa is :biggrin:

[binnie]

We don't want a failed system like the UK's NHS.

Mmmmm, given that life-expectancy in the UK is longer than in the US, I think you need to re-think that statement.

[LoungeMachine]

Mmmmm, given that life-expectancy in the UK is longer than in the US, I think you need to re-think that statement.

Re-think?

He never thinks to begin with.....

He just reposts talking points he reads elsewhere...

:gulp:

[FORD]

Re-think?

He never thinks to begin with.....

He just reposts talking points he reads elsewhere...

:gulp:

Or hears from the guy who lives down the street.....


http://samsedershow.tv/Archives/majorityreport/archives/2007/02/robertson_oriental.jpg

[Nitro Express]

They are just going to push this healthcare hard and heavy hoping people will give in and go fuck it. I doubt this new process will be any more transparent than the last time. Things will be added and if it passes we will wish it never did. Taxes will go through the roof. You won't be able to choose your doctor. Doctors offices will be swamped with paperwork and their overhead will increase and the doctor will have less time to spend with patients.

What we really need is price caps on the insurance and pharmacutical industry. It's a price gouging problem, not a healthcare problem. But then who do you think is behind all this healthcare legislation anyways? Big pharma and big insurance that's who. Follow the money.

[BigBadBrian]

For a failed system it looks pretty shit hot compared to yours. :)

UK heart surgeons are among the best in the world (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC517636/)



This is surgery on everyone from the homeless up for no charge to the patient and spending half as much per capita as the US. You could do with a failure like that...

Sentenced to death on the NHS


Patients with terminal illnesses are being made to die prematurely under an NHS scheme to help end their lives, leading doctors have warned.

By Kate Devlin, Medical Correspondent
Published: 10:00PM BST 02 Sep 2009




http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01474/nhs_1474056c.jpg
Under the guidelines the decision to diagnose that a patient is close to death is made by the entire medical team treating them, including a senior doctor




Under NHS guidance introduced across England to help doctors and medical staff deal with dying patients, they can then have fluid and drugs withdrawn and many are put on continuous sedation until they pass away.


As a result the scheme is causing a “national crisis” in patient care, the letter states. It has been signed palliative care experts including Professor Peter Millard, Emeritus Professor of Geriatrics, University of London, Dr Peter Hargreaves, a consultant in Palliative Medicine at St Luke’s cancer centre in Guildford, and four others.

“Forecasting death is an inexact science,”they say. Patients are being diagnosed as being close to death “without regard to the fact that the diagnosis could be wrong.

“As a result a national wave of discontent is building up, as family and friends witness the denial of fluids and food to patients."

The warning comes just a week after a report by the Patients Association estimated that up to one million patients had received poor or cruel care on the NHS.

The scheme, called the Liverpool Care Pathway (LCP), was designed to reduce patient suffering in their final hours.

Developed by Marie Curie, the cancer charity, in a Liverpool hospice it was initially developed for cancer patients but now includes other life threatening conditions.

It was recommended as a model by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (Nice), the Government’s health scrutiny body, in 2004.

It has been gradually adopted nationwide and more than 300 hospitals, 130 hospices and 560 care homes in England currently use the system.

Under the guidelines the decision to diagnose that a patient is close to death is made by the entire medical team treating them, including a senior doctor.

They look for signs that a patient is approaching their final hours, which can include if patients have lost consciousness or whether they are having difficulty swallowing medication.

However, doctors warn that these signs can point to other medical problems.

Patients can become semi-conscious and confused as a side effect of pain-killing drugs such as morphine if they are also dehydrated, for instance.

When a decision has been made to place a patient on the pathway doctors are then recommended to consider removing medication or invasive procedures, such as intravenous drips, which are no longer of benefit.

If a patient is judged to still be able to eat or drink food and water will still be offered to them, as this is considered nursing care rather than medical intervention.

Dr Hargreaves said that this depended, however, on constant assessment of a patient’s condition.

He added that some patients were being “wrongly” put on the pathway, which created a “self-fulfilling prophecy” that they would die.

He said: “I have been practising palliative medicine for more than 20 years and I am getting more concerned about this “death pathway” that is coming in.

“It is supposed to let people die with dignity but it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

“Patients who are allowed to become dehydrated and then become confused can be wrongly put on this pathway.”

He added: “What they are trying to do is stop people being overtreated as they are dying.

“It is a very laudable idea. But the concern is that it is tick box medicine that stops people thinking.”

He said that he had personally taken patients off the pathway who went on to live for “significant” amounts of time and warned that many doctors were not checking the progress of patients enough to notice improvement in their condition.

Prof Millard said that it was “worrying” that patients were being “terminally” sedated, using syringe drivers, which continually empty their contents into a patient over the course of 24 hours.

In 2007-08 16.5 per cent of deaths in Britain came about after continuous deep sedation, according to researchers at the Barts and the London School of Medicine and Dentistry, twice as many as in Belgium and the Netherlands.

“If they are sedated it is much harder to see that a patient is getting better,” Prof Millard said.

Katherine Murphy, director of the Patients Association, said: “Even the tiniest things that happen towards the end of a patient’s life can have a huge and lasting affect on patients and their families feelings about their care.

“Guidelines like the LCP can be very helpful but healthcare professionals always need to keep in mind the individual needs of patients.

“There is no one size fits all approach.”

A spokesman for Marie Curie said: “The letter highlights some complex issues related to care of the dying.

“The Liverpool Care Pathway for the Dying Patient was developed in response to a societal need to transfer best practice of care of the dying from the hospice to other care settings.

“The LCP is not the answer to all the complex elements of this area of health care but we believe it is a step in the right direction.”

The pathway also includes advice on the spiritual care of the patient and their family both before and after the death.

It has also been used in 800 instances outside care homes, hospices and hospitals, including for people who have died in their own homes.

The letter has also been signed by Dr Anthony Cole, the chairman of the Medical Ethics Alliance, Dr David Hill, an anaesthetist, Dowager Lady Salisbury, chairman of the Choose Life campaign and Dr Elizabeth Negus a lecturer in English at Barking University.

A spokesman for the Department of Health said: “People coming to the end of their lives should have a right to high quality, compassionate and dignified care.

"The Liverpool Care Pathway (LCP) is an established and recommended tool that provides clinicians with an evidence-based framework to help delivery of high quality care for people at the end of their lives.

"Many people receive excellent care at the end of their lives. We are investing £286 million over the two years to 2011 to support implementation of the End of Life Care Strategy to help improve end of life care for all adults, regardless of where they live.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html

[BigBadBrian]

Stafford Hospital caused ‘unimaginable suffering’
(David Jones/PA)
Relatives of patients involved in the report hold pictures of their loved ones
David Rose, Health Correspondent 97 Comments
Recommend? (33) Patients were routinely neglected or left “sobbing and humiliated” by staff at an NHS trust where at least 400 deaths have been linked to appalling care.

An independent inquiry found that managers at Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust stopped providing safe care because they were preoccupied with government targets and cutting costs.

The inquiry report, published yesterday by Robert Francis, QC, included proposals for tough new regulations that could lead to managers at failing NHS trusts being struck off.

Staff shortages at Stafford Hospital meant that patients went unwashed for weeks, were left without food or drink and were even unable to get to the lavatory. Some lay in soiled sheets that relatives had to take home to wash, others developed infections or had falls, occasionally fatal. Many staff did their best but the attitude of some nurses “left a lot to be desired”.

The report, which follows reviews by the Care Quality Commission and the Department of Health, said that “unimaginable” suffering had been caused. Regulators said last year that between 400 and 1,200 more patients than expected may have died at the hospital from 2005 to 2008.

Andy Burnham, the Health Secretary, said there could be “no excuses” for the failures and added that the board that presided over the scandal had been replaced. An undisclosed number of doctors and at least one nurse are being investigated by the General Medical Council and Nursing and Midwifery Council.

Mr Burnham said it was a “longstanding anomaly” that the NHS did not have a robust way of regulating managers or banning them from working, as it does with doctors or nurses. “We must end the situation where a senior NHS manager who has failed in one job can simply move to another elsewhere,” he added. “This is not acceptable to the public and not conducive to promoting accountability and high professional standards.”

A system of professional accreditation for senior managers would be considered and the Mid Staffordshire trust might lose its foundation status.

Some NHS chief executives have received six-figure redundancy packages or moved to other trusts despite poor performance. Martin Yeates, the former chief executive at Mid Staffordshire, received pay rises that took his annual salary to £180,000, while standards at the trust deteriorated.

The Liberal Democrats claimed that he had also received a payoff of more than £400,000 after stepping down last March, though Mr Burnham said he had received “no more than his contractual entitlement”.

The Care Quality Commission, the NHS regulator, said that the trust under its new management was now “safe to provide services”. But it still had concerns about staffing, patient welfare, the availability and suitability of equipment at the trust, and how it monitored and dealt with complaints. The inquiry made 18 recommendations for the trust and the wider health service, which the Government accepted in full. They include a new review of how regulators and regional health authorities monitor NHS hospitals and a report on “early-warning systems” to identify failing trusts.

But the families of those who died or suffered poor care branded the inquiry a “whitewash” and repeated calls for a full public investigation. The Conservatives accused ministers of trying to blame managers rather than taking responsibility for problems with national targets.

Julie Bailey, who founded the victims’ campaign group Cure the NHS after her mother died at Stafford Hospital, said that the handling of the scandal was disgraceful and unacceptable.

“It is time that the public were told the truth about the very large number of excess deaths in NHS care and the very large number of avoidable but deadly errors that occur every day.”

The NHS Confederation, which represents health trusts, said: “The responsibility for the way this hospital was run rests with its board, management and staff but, as the report says, the framework of targets, regulatory systems and policy priorities it worked within are also very important.”
Stafford Hospital caused ‘unimaginable suffering’ - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article7039285.ece)

[BigBadBrian]

An independent inquiry found that managers at Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust stopped providing safe care because they were preoccupied with government targets and cutting costs.



A kind way of saying: Death Panels.

[Seshmeister]

This hospital fucking up is a national scandal because it didn't perform the way it should not because this is what the NHS is usually like.

There are over 2000 NHS hospitals in the UK.

As you well know tens if not hundreds of thousands of people die every year in the US because of insurance problems.

[Seshmeister]

This is the diagram you need to get to grips with.

http://wolafen.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/cost-of-long-life.jpg

[ELVIS]

Do Japs actually drive TOYOTAS ??

[Seshmeister]

Lots.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3a/Toyota_sales.gif

[jhale667]

A kind way of saying: Death Panels.

Way to regurgitate another Repuke BULLSHIT talking point, BigBlandBitch. :dafinger:

Take out a loan and BUY a fucking clue already.

[BigBadBrian]

This hospital fucking up is a national scandal because it didn't perform the way it should not because this is what the NHS is usually like.

There are over 2000 NHS hospitals in the UK.

As you well know tens if not hundreds of thousands of people die every year in the US because of insurance problems.

Sesh, if you google "British NHS rationing," you literally get story after story after story....into the thousands. Most from UK sources.

I'm not saying all your hospitals, doctors or clinics are shit, or that you don't have some stellar programs, but there simply is no motive for excellence when bean counters determine which procedures, facilities, and medicines are "cost effective."

[Blackflag]

This is the diagram you need to get to grips with.

http://wolafen.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/cost-of-long-life.jpg

Do you really think health care is the main factor in determining life span? Everybody keeps posting this shit, and it's really pretty illogical.

[Blackflag]

For a failed system it looks pretty shit hot compared to yours. :)

UK heart surgeons are among the best in the world (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC517636/)



"Among" the best? What a coincidence, I'm "among the best" internet posters in the world.

"Poland's heart surgeons are among the best in the world. "
Polish heart surgeons excel at cardiac operations - Radio Prague (http://www.radio.cz/en/article/75200)

"Sri Lanka as being on par with best in the world when it came to open heart surgery"
Sri Lanka BUSINESS:: Lankan heart surgeons on par with best in world (http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2008/6/29506.html)

"Performing over 1,600 open-heart procedures a year, the [Columbia University] cardiac surgery section stands alone in the region and among the best in the world."
Heart Surgery (http://columbiaheart.com/index.html)

"The expertise of Bangkok Heart Hospital is among the best in the world"
Cardiac surgery Thailand Heart surgery Coronary artery bypass (http://www.hygeiasurgery.com/heartsurgery.html)


So stop spamming with your "I love England" nonsense. Next you'll be searching Wiki for "among the best" rankings. Ass.

I mean, you can argue that American health care is too expensive, that it's controlled by corporations, that not enough people have access to it...fine. But you can't seriously argue that it's not the gold standard worldwide, unless you're on a 'my country is better' parade.

[thome]

I garauntee you the goverment healthplan will have a more of a... is thier life worth the money we need to spend to sustain it, worth paying for....judgement calls on especially incapacitated people who cannot speak for themselves.

Than the AMA.

Get used to it this stuff will pass the debate was over long ago.

The only thing we need to worry about is can doctors still practice privatized care for those willing to pay for thier own personal care or such as community coops that gather funds and have care seperate than that of the government.

thome, that would be me, The thome.. made a new bumpersticker.

When Doctors Are Outlawed
My Doctor Will Be A Outlaw

[PETE'S BROTHER]

it should say an outaw. nobody will spend money on a missssspled stikerr.:hee:

[ELVIS]

Well, I just read that Medicare is planning to cut reimbursement 21% across the board! That's not realistically sustainable. At present it's very difficult to get full or even partial reimbursement and the paperwork is tricky, difficult and very time consuming. On top of that, Oblahma wants to cut medicare funding...


:elvis:

[thome]

:biggrin:

It's funny maybe we should better school care..lol



it should say an outaw. nobody will spend money on a missssspled stikerr.:hee:

[BigBadBrian]

Well, I just read that Medicare is planning to cut reimbursement 21% across the board!

Maybe it's to the Health Clubs and other nice ammenities (though nothing critical) that Nick was talking about. :lmao:

[Seshmeister]

Do you really think health care is the main factor in determining life span? Everybody keeps posting this shit, and it's really pretty illogical.

No I'm sure it's the power of prayer...

[hideyoursheep]

:umm:


"Prayer Pills".....

[hideyoursheep]

The entire situation is proof...

If the greedy cocksuckers in the insurance industry have money to "lobby" then the "rising cost of health care" is nothing but a scam.

Fuck the insurance companies..

Fuck the Democrats..

Fuck the Republicans..

Fuck Gaspar Gomez and FUCK THE FUCKING DIAZ BROTHERS!!!


FUCK 'EM ALL!!!

<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/scarface" target="_blank"><img src="http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab112/youngmoney91/scarface.jpg" border="0" alt="scarface Pictures, Images and Photos"/></a>


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Imb4tYOk8GE&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Imb4tYOk8GE&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[SilvioDante]

Couple notes everyone here can destroy me on...

I am NOT a gun nut or gun owner, but I love the life expectancy argument. The left uses that to prove guns are bad until they need to pass health care. Now the UK vs. USA life expectancy difference is because of health care...

I do not and have never met anyone that has died because of lack of health care, and I am pretty sure no one here has either. My wife's grandmother, stricken with cancer, was told she had to sell her house (one she worked for all her life) to keep her Medicare. Seems that made her to "rich" to qualify (You should have seen the place. Holes n the outer walls, rats, leaky roof. Real mansion). Had to move in with my inlaws and died in a bed in their living room...

My wife does medical billing for a living and worked in a hospital for years. I know how Medicare and Medicaid work. HIPPA laws prevent me from giving examples but trust me it sucks...

I live in Tennessee (insert inbred joke here), and our version of government healthcare, Tenncare, almost bankrupted the state.

I will vote and be all on board for ANY socialized healthcare the minute someone can point to a government agency that is run right and at or under budget. I bet you I can name more poorly run agencies than you can name well run ones...

[Blackflag]

No I'm sure it's the power of prayer...

How about that Americans are tubby bitches who won't exercise? You think that might bring the average down? Supposedly, murders of people under 25 also brings the average way down. What does that have to do with health care?

But don't let logic get in your way of answering: a) England is great or b) religion is the culprit - to every question. Drone.

[Seshmeister]

I don't live in England and haven't said it's great.

[Seshmeister]

Couple notes everyone here can destroy me on...

I am NOT a gun nut or gun owner, but I love the life expectancy argument. The left uses that to prove guns are bad until they need to pass health care. Now the UK vs. USA life expectancy difference is because of health care...


I don't read the graph that way, there isn't a huge difference between between the life expectancy. I also think that noone would use overall life expectancy as a gun control argument because even in the USA most people don't die of murder.

The point of the graph is to show that the US is paying nearly twice as much for no better life expectancy than most Western countries.

I would infer from that the US system is not a good one.

[Blackflag]

Sorry, Scotland - the country England shits on. Whatever.

[Seshmeister]

Good one. :)

Sounds like you are rattled, I must be shaking your views.

[LoungeMachine]

Sorry, Scotland - the country England shits on. Whatever.

well argued.

:lmao:

[Blackflag]

the US is paying nearly twice as much for no better life expectancy than most Western countries.

I would infer from that the US system is not a good one.

Isn't that the same kind of logic that Dilbert's boss uses?

[Blackflag]

well argued.

:lmao:

Ha ha, I'm not arguing about Scotland.

I don't really hate the UK, I can take it or leave it. Just kind of dull and lifeless with inedible food.

[hideyoursheep]

How about that Americans are tubby bitches who won't exercise?

Lance Armstrong and his one nut might disagree with you.

[Blackflag]

Lance Armstrong and his one nut might disagree with you.

So would Jack LaLane. But what the fuck does that have to do with what I said? Do you think they represent the population as a whole?

[chefcraig]

Isn't that the same kind of logic that Dilbert's boss uses?

Not quite, as the pointy-haired boss would gather from the graph that the U.S. system is a good one, as it costs more.

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/2260/dilbert2.gif (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/dilbert2.gif/)

[hideyoursheep]

So would Jack LaLane. But what the fuck does that have to do with what I said?


You were trying to make sense?

LMAO.

[LoungeMachine]

So would Jack LaLane. But what the fuck does that have to do with what I said? Do you think they represent the population as a whole?

No one does.

:gulp:

Don't be ridiculous

[Blackflag]

No one does.

:gulp:

Don't be ridiculous

Are you familiar with the concept of "average?" How about "median?"

Should I have Hideyoursheep explain to you that Lance is neither of those?

[LoungeMachine]

Are you familiar with the concept of "average?" How about "median?"




I am.

But you didn't use either of those concepts...

Learn to argue with facts.

:gulp:

[chefcraig]

I find it astounding that in the past 24 hours, the name Lance has come up in discussion in 2 entirely different contexts.

[Blackflag]

But you didn't use either of those concepts...


I did. When I said:


Do you think they represent the population as a whole?

Do you know what's used to represent a population of data? Guess.

Fuck, it's hard to communicate with somebody that needs everything spelled out.

[LoungeMachine]

As a whole.....

And median or average...

Are two different things.

:gulp:


I'm not thick, you're just annoying.....

[LoungeMachine]

I find it astounding that in the past 24 hours, the name Lance has come up in discussion in 2 entirely different contexts.

Just don't ask BF about his boil procedure on Monday.....

:gulp:

[Blackflag]

I find it astounding that in the past 24 hours, the name Lance has come up in discussion in 2 entirely different contexts.

It sounds like he was a fucking cheater and thus deserves no references in this fine forum.

[Blackflag]

As a whole.....

And median or average...

Are two different things.


They are. Pick whichever you prefer to use. But don't say no one can represent a population, because that's fucking stupid.

[Blackflag]

you're just annoying.....

I can see you grunting at your screen saying, 'logic annoying! logic make head hurt!!' :biggrin:

[LoungeMachine]

They are. Pick whichever you prefer to use. But don't say no one can represent a population, because that's fucking stupid.

No, it's not.

No longer can you use the 36 year old white male making $36K a year with 2.3 kids....

We're way beyond that now.

Tell me who/what YOU think represents the population of the US

:gulp:

Yakima convenience store clerks?

[LoungeMachine]

I can see you grunting at your screen saying, 'logic annoying! logic make head hurt!!' :biggrin:

Bring us some logic, and I'll let you know.....

In the meantime I'll just read your "fag" retorts and comic strip references....

:gulp:

[Blackflag]

Tell me who/what YOU think represents the population of the US


For male, probably... 5'9", 210 pounds, balding, can't get it up anymore, shit on by their boss... i.e. look in the mirror. :)



Seriously, they say greater than 75% of the population is overweight now. Therefore, the "average" person in the U.S. is overweight. The "average" person in the U.S. either eats poorly, or doesn't get enough exercise, or both. Get it, mouthbreather?

[Blackflag]

I'll just read your "fag" retorts and comic strip references....


Yeah, you would. Get in line.

[LoungeMachine]

Seriously, they say greater than 75% of the population is overweight now. Therefore, the "average" person in the U.S. is overweight. The "average" person in the U.S. either eats poorly, or doesn't get enough exercise, or both. Get it, mouthbreather?

In other news....

The "average" American has 2 arms, and breathes in and out 24 hours a day...

:gulp:

fantastic logic to your argument, Yakima.

:lmao:

[LoungeMachine]

For male, probably... 5'9", 210 pounds, balding, can't get it up anymore, shit on by their boss... i.e. look in the mirror. :)




:lmao:

Project much?

[Blackflag]

It's not an argument, it's just a fact. Americans are tubby bitches who won't exercise.

If you want to tell me why that statement is wrong, go ahead. Otherwise, stfu and tell us more about the latest "west wing" episode.

[Blackflag]

:lmao:

Project much?

I'm sure if I were like that, I'd feel too self-conscious to talk about it. In fact, I'd probably just deflect. ;)

It's ok, Kip. You can't control baldness...your droopy little wiener. :lmao:

[LoungeMachine]

I'm sure if I were like that, I'd feel too self-conscious to talk about it. In fact, I'd probably just deflect. ;)

It's ok, Kip. You can't control baldness...your droopy little wiener. :lmao:

:lmao:

you poor thing.

[Blackflag]

Weak.

[LoungeMachine]

Weak.

Yes, but we let you post anyway.....

:gulp:

Until you beg us to ban you again....

[Blackflag]

Who's "us?" Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

Let me know when you scrape $25 together and start your own website. Then you'll have the power to ban me from it.

Then you can get rid of the 'no cock pics rule,' because I know you want to. :lmao:

[Nickdfresh]

Maybe it's to the Health Clubs and other nice ammenities (though nothing critical) that Nick was talking about. :lmao:

Maybe it's just a bunch of exaggerated, out-of-context scare mongering bullshit designed to make people like you and Elvis soil their Depends?

[Nickdfresh]

How about that Americans are tubby bitches who won't exercise? You think that might bring the average down? Supposedly, murders of people under 25 also brings the average way down. What does that have to do with health care?

But don't let logic get in your way of answering: a) England is great or b) religion is the culprit - to every question. Drone.

How about people who have terminal diseases and can't get health insurance?

[Nickdfresh]

So would Jack LaLane. But what the fuck does that have to do with what I said? Do you think they represent the population as a whole?

What was your point again? That "tubby" people are the cause of all of our health care dilemma? Last time I checked, the long term effects of obesity really don't begin to catch up until people are pretty close to qualifying for Medicare...

[Nickdfresh]

And oh yeah, since we're asking hypothetical questions here: What about the fact that U.S. "Health" Insurance companies are now drastically raising rates on small businesses in the hopes that they drop their insurance and thusly reduce the risk pool, force people to purchase expensive policies on their own, and increase the profits?

[Seshmeister]

I don't really hate the UK, I can take it or leave it. Just kind of dull and lifeless with inedible food.

A bit of practice and you could soon learn how to use cutlery.

[Blackflag]

That "tubby" people are the cause of all of our health care dilemma?

Yep, that's exactly what I said. :umm:

[Blackflag]

A bit of practice and you could soon learn how to use cutlery.

I'd rather eat dogshit with my bare hands than UK food.

[Nickdfresh]

Yep, that's exactly what I said. :umm:

Did you read that on the inside of your ass-cheeks?

[Nickdfresh]

I'd rather eat dogshit with my bare hands than UK food.

You mean like London Broil angus? Are you a salad-eater pussy like Sgt. Shitz?

[hideyoursheep]

It sounds like he was a fucking cheater and thus deserves no references in this fine forum.


:lmao:

Who the hell are you? The fucking Pope?

:lmao:

[Blackflag]

Did you read that on the inside of your ass-cheeks?

No. Did you?

[hideyoursheep]

I'd rather eat dogshit with my bare hands than UK food.


Their C-Rats are better than ours, though.

[Blackflag]

You mean like London Broil angus? Are you a salad-eater pussy like Sgt. Shitz?

Dude, "london broil" is shit, and so is the meat you get in the UK.

Trust me, I've put down more cows than you, hideyoursheep, and your dickstool Lounge combined.

[hideyoursheep]

You mean like London Broil angus? Are you a salad-eater pussy like Sgt. Shitz?

Salad tosser...:lol:

[Nickdfresh]

No. Did you?

No, I didn't look at your fat ass...

[hideyoursheep]

Dude, "london broil" is shit, and so is the meat you get in the UK.

Trust me, I've put down more cows than you, hideyoursheep, and your dickstool Lounge combined.


The proof is in the colonoscopy. :lol:


Seriously...I indulge more in the shrimp and barnyard pimp now that I know what cow flesh does to the digestive tract.

[Blackflag]

:lmao:

Who the hell are you? The fucking Pope?

:lmao:

If I were the Pope, I'd lay down the fucking law. No, I'm just your average concerned citizen, enforcing truth, justice, and the american way.

[Blackflag]

Proof?

I'll take a dump for you sometime, and you can measure it. Bring the big calipers and a heavy-duty scale.

[Blackflag]

No, I didn't look at your fat ass...

Don't lie. I've seen you checking me out before.

[Blackflag]

The proof is in the colonoscopy. :lol:

Let me guess...and you want to perform it? Gross.



Seriously...I indulge more in the shrimp and barnyard pimp now that I know what cow flesh does to the digestive tract.

"Oh, my poor colon!" Bet it's not the first time you've said that.

Eat steak, you pussy.

[Nickdfresh]

Dude, "london broil" is shit, and so is the meat you get in the UK.

We're not talking about penises. If you don't like British men, that's fine with me...


Trust me, I've put down more cows than you, hideyoursheep, and your dickstool Lounge combined.

Tipping them over doesn't count. I fucking love Angus, and I think you're overstating a stereotype about British food that may or may no longer exist. Secondly, there are a lot of people I've known who've traveled to South America tell me that our meat is shit compared to theirs and that Argentinian beef is worth its weight in gold...

[Nickdfresh]

Don't lie. I've seen you checking me out before.

Well, what can I say. I enjoy a nice pair of slacks now and again...

[Blackflag]

Tipping them over doesn't count. I fucking love Angus, and I think you're overstating a stereotype about British food that may or may no longer exist.

I've probably been there more recently than you, and let me assure you that the stereotype is as true as ever.



Secondly, there are a lot of people I've known who've traveled to South America tell me that our meat is shit compared to theirs and that Argentinian beef is worth its weight in gold...

The cow in south america is as good as it gets. But I've had steaks in Texas that were as good.

[Blackflag]

Well, what can I say. I enjoy a nice pair of slacks now and again...

Yeah, I bet you do. In a pile on your floor.

[Nickdfresh]

Yeah, I bet you do. In a pile on your floor.

http://babyjanehudson.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/wire-hangers.jpg

[Seshmeister]

I've probably been there more recently than you, and let me assure you that the stereotype is as true as ever.



The cow in south america is as good as it gets. But I've had steaks in Texas that were as good.

So your extensive palate is based on eating steaks. Sounds like it's as narrow minded and parochial as your politics.

[Blackflag]

Oh fuck, please tell me you're not going to try and argue that the food there is fit for anything other than pets.

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/customavatars/avatar19824_10.gif

[hideyoursheep]

:fufu:
Let me guess...and you want to perform it? Gross.
Nah...you guessed wrong. You knw damn well what I'm saying, and if you don't, you're one of those 5'8" , 215 lb scumbags....I bet more than 230lbs. Stop eating, dick. You make Kevin Smith look healthy.



"Oh, my poor colon!" Bet it's not the first time you've said that. Only after bad Mexiacan food. I bet you say that every other Saturday.


Eat steak, you pussy. I have. No matter how you prepare it, it is not good for you. Lots of people like Twinkies and Mr. Pibb, too...does it make me a "pussy" because I'm too smart to fuck myself up intentionally?

Have another bag of Dorito's....and wash it down with a Pibb.

:rolleyes:

Idiot.

[chefcraig]

Have another bag of Dorito's...


Speaking of those things, has anyone else come across this bizarre shit? In an apparent move to corner the stoner market hanging out at 24 hour Walgreen's and convenience stores, Frito Lay has come up with this series of "Late Night" Doritos, that come in Taco, Cheese burger and yes, Last Call Jalapeno Popper flavors. Yup, you always eat the oddest crap when it's near dawn and you're stoned.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3360/doritoslatenightjalapen.gif (http://img20.imageshack.us/i/doritoslatenightjalapen.gif/)

[Seshmeister]

Oh fuck, please tell me you're not going to try and argue that the food there is fit for anything other than pets.

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/customavatars/avatar19824_10.gif

I'm not dumb enough to generalise a whole country's cuisine but last time I was in the US I noticed the chain restaurants are pretty bad. Places like Dennys are pitching their prices so low the quality is getting inedible.

I don't know where you went in the UK but I'm guessing it was probably one of those London steakhouses that only exist in London, are stuck in the 1970s and are populated entirely by tourists.

I would say that there are still better steakhouses in the US and that the South American ones are untouchable but for a lot of other stuff the UK is well up there especially at the high end and ethnic stuff. Every town in the UK has a couple of Chinese restaurants that are better than most you would find anywhere in the US, same with asian curries.

[Blackflag]

I'm not dumb enough to generalise a whole country's cuisine but last time I was in the US I noticed the chain restaurants are pretty bad. Places like Dennys are pitching their prices so low the quality is getting inedible.

I don't know where you went in the UK but I'm guessing it was probably one of those London steakhouses that only exist in London, are stuck in the 1970s and are populated entirely by tourists.

I would say that there are still better steakhouses in the US and that the South American ones are untouchable but for a lot of other stuff the UK is well up there especially at the high end and ethnic stuff. Every town in the UK has a couple of Chinese restaurants that are better than most you would find anywhere in the US, same with asian curries.

So your argument is that - if you're unlucky enough to have to eat in the UK - eat Chinese food.

Point taken. :hee:

I also love that your idea of "food" is Denny's. :lmao:

[Seshmeister]

No that's your idea.

Jeez it's like having a conversation with JW Pepper. :)

[binnie]

Didn't realize that the UK was renowned for bad food.

[Blackflag]

:lmao:

[chefcraig]

Didn't realize that the UK was renowned for bad food.

It isn't. It's mostly known for it's advancements in dentistry.

[kwame k]

It isn't. It's mostly known for it's advancements in dentistry.

:lmao:

[Terry]

These statistics thrown about by various politicians, columnists and tv talking heads which supposedly reflect "what the American people want" are suspect in my book.

Our politicians have simply lost the will to make the tough decisions. It's a weakness borne out of fear...mostly fear of losing re-election bids.

What's going to happen when the fruity baby boomer generation starts retiring en masse shortly? What's going to happen when the ratio of those working is significantly lower than those who have retired? What happens when the amount of people paying into programs like social security and medicare is far outstripped by the amount of people drawing from those programs?

'Obamacare' doesn't have all the answers, but it's hard to escape the conclusion of the bottom line re: all this right-wing political obstructionist behavior. It's a naked ploy to retake the WH and Congress.

Hey, fine. Fair enough. The Dems acted in a similar manner from 2005 to 2008.

The difference is the GOP has no plan beyond gaining control. The GOP had that control from 2002 through 2006. What happened with social security? Nothing. Did health insurance premiums rise or fall during those years? They rose. Did the quality of care rise in proportion to the premiums? Not as far as I can see.

I'd have no problem with what the GOP are doing if I had a degree of faith that they had plans and the political will to put those plans into action.

They don't.

The teabaggers allowing themselves to be co-opted by the GOP would be one of the bigger tragedies of this whole situation should it come to pass. The GOP (like the baggers) might SEEM like the underdog politically, but the party is just one of two viable options the way the system stands right now, and it is the system that is broken.

I'm sorry, but the tactic of 'do nothing' just doesn't cut it. Is it an easy option when a crisis comes to fore? Yes. However, it may entail far more risk to do nothing in this case than to try something new.

That's the thing about revolutions: before they take place they're seen as unimaginable, yet after they happen they're seen as inevitable.

[BigBadBrian]

More importantly why does Brian not think the US people should get healthcare reform when most of them voted for it?

How do you figure "most of them voted for it?"

[LoungeMachine]

How do you figure "most of them voted for it?"

Look who is in the Oval Office after campaigning on it, moron....

:rolleyes:

[jhale667]

Look who is in the Oval Office after campaigning on it, moron....

:rolleyes:

There you go confusing Brie with facts again... ;)

[BigBadBrian]

Look who is in the Oval Office after campaigning on it, moron....

:rolleyes:

This is just a mere example of the simplistic intellect you and most other Dems have. :)

It's quite obvious Obama conned his way into office with more rhetoric than substance. Recent polls, from any source, are overwhelmingly negative towards Barry's plan. To think he won the election simply due to his healthcare plan is quite naive. I wouldn't expect anything more from you, though.

BTW - I'll bet your ass is sore from always having jhale667's nose up it. Do you pay him to be your bitch?

[jhale667]

Nice weak sauce comeback, BigBland...
Wow, who could've seen yet another homosexual reference from Brie coming? Sure it's a wonderful and valid choice for you (just come out of the closet already, ya freakin' butt-dart), but quit projecting it onto everyone else.

"Conned his way into office" - no, that was your hero W.





Seek help.

[Nickdfresh]

This is just a mere example of the simplistic intellect you and most other Dems have. :)

So, how does it feel to be the party of opposition against "simplistic intellects," teabagger?


It's quite obvious Obama conned his way into office with more rhetoric than substance. Recent polls, from any source, are overwhelmingly negative towards Barry's plan. To think he won the election simply due to his healthcare plan is quite naive. I wouldn't expect anything more from you, though.

BTW - I'll bet your ass is sore from always having jhale667's nose up it. Do you pay him to be your bitch?

You've successfully describe almost every politician everywhere ever...

I would summarize that Obama is more complex and substantive than most. Especially when he's not even close to halfway through his first term. At this point in his first term, Reagan looked like a one-termer...

But don't let "facts" stop you from your double-standards and poo-spam, Brianne...

And do you always ponder other mens' assholes?

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Palin Crossed Border For Canadian Health Care - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20100308/cm_huffpost/490080;_ylt=AkqFf_OxiTxUGPpGBSnuTgOs0NUE;_ylu=X3oD MTNnOGk4Mmh2BGFzc2V0A2h1ZmZwb3N0LzIwMTAwMzA4LzQ5MD A4MARjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzkEcG9zAzYEcHQD aG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawNwYW xpbnNhaWRzaGU-)

rmer Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin -- who has gone to great lengths to hype the supposed dangers of a big government takeover of American health care -- admitted over the weekend that she used to get her treatment in Canada's single-payer system.
"We used to hustle over the border for health care we received in Canada," Palin said in her first Canadian appearance since stepping down as governor of Alaska. "And I think now, isn't that ironic?"
The irony, one guesses, is that Palin now views Canada's health care system as revolting: with its government-run administration and 'death-panel'-like rationing. Clearly, however, she and her family once found it more alluring than, at the very least, the coverage available in rural Alaska. Up to the age of six, Palin lived in a remote town near the closest Canadian city, Whitehorse.
Officials at several hospitals in that area declined to give out information on patient visits.

[Seshmeister]

Even if there were such a thing as these sick bizarre imaginary death panels where you only got free treatment if they said so, has it not ocurred to people that the only thing worse would be no prospect of free treatment at all.

[BigBadBrian]

Even if there were such a thing as these sick bizarre imaginary death panels where you only got free treatment if they said so, has it not ocurred to people that the only thing worse would be no prospect of free treatment at all.

No. People should have to pay for their healthcare. It is a privilege, not a right.

[binnie]

People should have to pay for their healthcare. It is a privilege, not a right.

Purely out of interest, what do you think our human rights are?

[Angel]

We do pay for it, dumbass. Through taxes and in some cases monthly payments.

I just had my 5th pacemaker surgery. I couldn't get insurance in the states if I wanted to...

[Seshmeister]

No. People should have to pay for their healthcare. It is a privilege, not a right.

So in your warped world the police and army should be a privilege too.

Every road should all be tolled and you could put cash in each streetlight as you walked along the sidewalk to make it light up.

As long as there was noone else nearby, then it would be better to walk in the dark in case they got to use some of your light.

[BigBadBrian]

So in your warped world the police and army should be a privilege too.

Every road should all be tolled and you could put cash in each streetlight as you walked along the sidewalk to make it light up.

As long as there was noone else nearby, then it would be better to walk in the dark in case they got to use some of your light.

I knew some progressive twit would post something like this. :rolleyes:

What's next, housing and food should be free also?

[Seshmeister]

I knew some progressive twit would post something like this. :rolleyes:

What's next, housing and food should be free also?

At a minimum level for those that can't look after themselves? Of course.

Why do you support huge government spending on the military or locking up millions of people in jail?

[Nickdfresh]

No. People should have to pay for their healthcare. It is a privilege, not a right.

When you're done cleaning the health care lobby's sperm off from all over your face, and the faces of the politicians you vote for, let us know...

[Blackflag]

So in your warped world the police and army should be a privilege too.

Neither of those are rights. Try suing the police for failing to save you or protect you. (Talking about the U.S., of course.)

[Blackflag]

Purely out of interest, what do you think our human rights are?

Your rights are limitations on the government, restraining them from doing things to you.

A "right" to health care would suggest that you (or the government) would have the right to compel a doctor to treat you. Feel-good nonsense, not based in reality.

[kwame k]

It's funny how you guys support an industry that has raised premiums in some states as much as 50% in less than a year, has a history of corruption, over billing and ordering unnecessary tests to make more money off of you. All the while the standard of healthcare is dropping while costs go up.

The single biggest expense facing the backbone of this country....middle-class people and small businesses is health care.

Yet you Mental Midgets are sucking on the dick of lobbyist and the health care industry, like nobody's business.

Then again, the Mental Midgets elected Bush twice and were all for McSame and Insane. Anti-Americanism at it's finest.

[Blackflag]

The insurance companies can burn in hell. But that doesn't make it a "right."

In fact, the state or fed. could put regulations on the insurance companies' price increases without having to claim anything as a "right."

Neither republicans or democrats would oppose that. Instead, we have this constant fight over "rights" and welfare bullshit. Make insurance company increases keyed to inflation. Nobody would oppose that - not even Brian.

I wonder why they don't.

[Nickdfresh]

Your rights are limitations on the government, restraining them from doing things to you.

A "right" to health care would suggest that you (or the government) would have the right to compel a doctor to treat you. Feel-good nonsense, not based in reality.

Except in every other Western democracy...

[Sgt Schultz]

http://beforeitsnews.com/ckfinder/userfiles/images/billboard.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

Can you simpletons please the retarded pics in the political cartoon section?

[binnie]

Your rights are limitations on the government, restraining them from doing things to you.

A "right" to health care would suggest that you (or the government) would have the right to compel a doctor to treat you. Feel-good nonsense, not based in reality.

So the only human right is a limitation on government?

Not the right to be a free citizen rather than a slave.

The right to education.

The right to vote.

Or the right to a fair trial?

What about the right to live in sheltered accomodation?

Are these not the fundamental things that define being 'civilised' in our society? I'm not ragging on you, I'm just trying open the issue up for discussion - why a child is born today in America or anywhere else in the Western world, what are they fundamentally entitled to? Aren't those things what define our society?

[Blackflag]

So the only human right is a limitation on government?

There are numerous rights, but they're all limitations on people doing stuff to you.




Not the right to be a free citizen rather than a slave.

You have the right to not be enslaved.




The right to education.

I admit, that's an interesting one.



The right to vote.

You have the right to not have the government prevent you from voting.




Or the right to a fair trial?

You have the right to not be prosecuted by the government unless they do so with a fair trial.



What about the right to live in sheltered accomodation?

You don't have the right to make somebody provide you with a house. Otherwise, I want to know where my free house is.



Are these not the fundamental things that define being 'civilised' in our society? I'm not ragging on you, I'm just trying open the issue up for discussion - why a child is born today in America or anywhere else in the Western world, what are they fundamentally entitled to? Aren't those things what define our society?

Well, I think those are two separate questions. What "should" be present in a civilized society is a different question from what my "rights" are.

I think a "civilized" city should have a great mass transit system. And I'd like everybody to have a stop within 15 minutes walk of where they live. I also think at least 10% of city space should be devoted to parks - minimum. That would be fucking awesome.

On the other hand, I have a right not be put in prison without a trial.

[chefcraig]

You have the right to not be prosecuted by the government unless they do so with a fair trial...On the other hand, I have a right not be put in prison without a trial.

I dunno man, I'm pretty sure that was modified somewhat by the Patriot Act. Problem is, it would likely take me my entire prison term to find where exactly the article is buried within it.

[Nickdfresh]

Know your rights!! (all three of them...)

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[Nitro Express]

Obama won by default. People were sick of eight years of Republican rule and they were sick of Hillary and her carpet bagging, opportunistic ways. Not to mention she supported the invasion of Iraq. Obama was the new guy on the block, he ran a good campaign, people got fooled and voted for him. In other words, he was the better bullshitter.

[binnie]

There are numerous rights, but they're all limitations on people doing stuff to you.




You have the right to not be enslaved.




I admit, that's an interesting one.



You have the right to not have the government prevent you from voting.




You have the right to not be prosecuted by the government unless they do so with a fair trial.



You don't have the right to make somebody provide you with a house. Otherwise, I want to know where my free house is.



Well, I think those are two separate questions. What "should" be present in a civilized society is a different question from what my "rights" are.

I think a "civilized" city should have a great mass transit system. And I'd like everybody to have a stop within 15 minutes walk of where they live. I also think at least 10% of city space should be devoted to parks - minimum. That would be fucking awesome.

On the other hand, I have a right not be put in prison without a trial.

Thanks, this got me thinking.

I think there are some fundamental differences between the US and Uk here - people on low incomes are entitled to state housing, either at low or zero rent depending on circumstances.

The difference between what 'should be' in a civilized society and what actually 'is' I found very interesting - I guess what I'm driving at here is, when a child is born into a Western society, what are it's basic rights? What does society promise to do for it? To educate, protect and allow it to live freely, I guess we all would agree. But is it not also civilized to ensure that no-one in our society will go without food, and without access to the healthcare that all other members of that society enjoy? Or is it a case of 'you're on your own Jack?'

[jacksmar]

Back on topic……..

The commie libs want abortion and it’s in the senate bill. If you’re so fucking dumb to believe abortion will taken out, you deserve to have your kid put in front of truck on I80 hoping that the truck brakes will work. Or your pregnant wife.

The senate bill is an unfunded federal mandate.
STATE SPENDING INCREASES IN MEDICAID REQUIRED BY SENATE HEALTH BILL

Alaska $39M Mont. $29M
Ariz. $217M Neb. $81M
Ark. $402M Nev. $54M
Calif. $1,428M N.H. $59M
Colo. $163M N.M. $102M
Del. $35M N.C. $599M
Fla. $909M N.D. $14M
Ga. $495M Ohio $399M
Hawaii $41M Okla. $190M
Idaho $97M Ore. $231M
Iowa $77M Pa. $1,490M
Ind. $586M S.C. $122M
Kan. $186M S.D. $33M
Ky. $199M Texas $2,749M
La. $432M Utah $58M
Md. $194M Va. $601M
Mich. $570M Wash. $311M
Miss. $136M W.Va. $132M
Mo. $836M Wyo. $25M

It’s the same old commie lib cost shifting ploy. Your taxes will go up dumbasses.

The senate bill which the shit stain prez wants to sign doesn’t have any provisions for capping costs, rationing health care for terminally fucked, it doesn’t limit the plan to basic essential needs, it doesn’t allow for group bargaining of costs by the government (which they would fuck up anyway), and as the commie libs here are so quick to point out Canada as their shining silver leaf, doesn’t allow cheaper imports of drugs to come in from Canada.

Can’t refute the facts dumb-asses. That’s what us simpletons found out when we read the fucking bill.
FBHO

[Nickdfresh]

Back on topic……..

The commie libs want abortion and it’s in the senate bill. If you’re so fucking dumb to believe abortion will taken out, you deserve to have your kid put in front of truck on I80 hoping that the truck brakes will work. Or your pregnant wife.


Don't you want the right to coerce one of those fat, Florida ho's you brag about banging, into having an abortion?



The senate bill is an unfunded federal mandate.
STATE SPENDING INCREASES IN MEDICAID REQUIRED BY SENATE HEALTH BILL

Alaska $39M Mont. $29M
Ariz. $217M Neb. $81M
Ark. $402M Nev. $54M
Calif. $1,428M N.H. $59M
Colo. $163M N.M. $102M
Del. $35M N.C. $599M
Fla. $909M N.D. $14M
Ga. $495M Ohio $399M
Hawaii $41M Okla. $190M
Idaho $97M Ore. $231M
Iowa $77M Pa. $1,490M
Ind. $586M S.C. $122M
Kan. $186M S.D. $33M
Ky. $199M Texas $2,749M
La. $432M Utah $58M
Md. $194M Va. $601M
Mich. $570M Wash. $311M
Miss. $136M W.Va. $132M
Mo. $836M Wyo. $25M

It’s the same old commie lib cost shifting ploy. Your taxes will go up dumbasses.

You mean like using bullshit numbers?


The senate bill which the shit stain prez wants to sign doesn’t have any provisions for capping costs, rationing health care for terminally fucked, it doesn’t limit the plan to basic essential needs, it doesn’t allow for group bargaining of costs by the government (which they would fuck up anyway), and as the commie libs here are so quick to point out Canada as their shining silver leaf, doesn’t allow cheaper imports of drugs to come in from Canada.

Can’t refute the facts dumb-asses. That’s what us simpletons found out when we read the fucking bill.
FBHO

We'll cap costs via death panels, my little pantie-pisser. :)

[BigBadBrian]

We'll cap costs via death panels, my little pantie-pisser. :)

Sadly, that's what it will come down to...just like Canada and the UK.

[jhale667]

So, are you neocons following your hero Rush Limbaugh to Costa Rica (where they have "socialized medicine" too, btw)?

[kwame k]

So, are you neocons following your hero Rush Limbaugh to Costa Rica (where they have "socialized medicine" too, btw)?


Or will you follow your Goddess Palin over to Canada to get medical treatment like she did?

[chefcraig]

So, are you neocons following your hero Rush Limbaugh to Costa Rica (where they have "socialized medicine" too, btw)?


Or will you follow your Goddess Palin over to Canada to get medical treatment like she did?

That isn't even a realistic choice. Canada has nicer people, better fishing, and quite frankly I'm sick to death of tropical weather. Besides, since the Olympics, I've suddenly found myself watching hockey more often. And everybody knows that the only Rush worth listening to is a 3 piece band from...Canada. :theband:

[kwame k]

Back on topic……..

The commie libs want abortion and it’s in the senate bill. If you’re so fucking dumb to believe abortion will taken out, you deserve to have your kid put in front of truck on I80 hoping that the truck brakes will work. Or your pregnant wife.

The senate bill is an unfunded federal mandate.
STATE SPENDING INCREASES IN MEDICAID REQUIRED BY SENATE HEALTH BILL

Alaska $39M Mont. $29M
Ariz. $217M Neb. $81M
Ark. $402M Nev. $54M
Calif. $1,428M N.H. $59M
Colo. $163M N.M. $102M
Del. $35M N.C. $599M
Fla. $909M N.D. $14M
Ga. $495M Ohio $399M
Hawaii $41M Okla. $190M
Idaho $97M Ore. $231M
Iowa $77M Pa. $1,490M
Ind. $586M S.C. $122M
Kan. $186M S.D. $33M
Ky. $199M Texas $2,749M
La. $432M Utah $58M
Md. $194M Va. $601M
Mich. $570M Wash. $311M
Miss. $136M W.Va. $132M
Mo. $836M Wyo. $25M

It’s the same old commie lib cost shifting ploy. Your taxes will go up dumbasses.

The senate bill which the shit stain prez wants to sign doesn’t have any provisions for capping costs, rationing health care for terminally fucked, it doesn’t limit the plan to basic essential needs, it doesn’t allow for group bargaining of costs by the government (which they would fuck up anyway), and as the commie libs here are so quick to point out Canada as their shining silver leaf, doesn’t allow cheaper imports of drugs to come in from Canada.

Can’t refute the facts dumb-asses. That’s what us simpletons found out when we read the fucking bill.
FBHO

At least you finally come to grips with the fact you are a simpleton.......

It's funny you're all up in arms about Death Panels but are totally fine with with letting millions of Americans suffer needlessly and die for lack of adequate health care.....oh, that's right! You Neocon, Anti-American shit bags are all for torture....my mistake :)

Funding abortions.....well, it's legal and you fucking Mental Midgets have had how many years to overturn Roe v Wade? Let's do the math.....

Roe v Wade Decided on January 22, 1973

President was........Richard Nixon, Republican
1974-1977 Gerald Ford, Republican
1977-1981 Jimmy Carter, Democrat
1981-1989 Ronald Reagan, Republican
1989-1993 George Bush, Republican
1993-2001 Bill Clinton, Democrat
2001-2009 George W Bush, Republican
2009-Present Barack Obama, Democrat

5 Republican Presidents since Roe v Wade was passed for a total of 24 years as opposed to 4 Democratic Presidents for a total of 13 years to date.

You fucking Conservatives had almost double the time to abolish abortion and everyone of of those Presidents ran on a Pro-Life platform but did nothing to save the babies. Why is that?

MR read the fucking bill what page is the Death Panels on?

You guys buy into Death Panels and all the other Rove like scare tactics hook line and sinker. You'll buy into Obama isn't a US citizen, he's a socialist, and all the other Republican tricks to keep you in perpetual fear to control you. You fell for invading Iraq when there was zero proof that they had anything to do with 9/11 or WMD's.

Guess what assholes, how in the fuck do you think we'll pay for these wars? Your taxes will be raised because at some point the REAL COMMUNISTS will want their money back.

[kwame k]

That isn't even a realistic choice. Canada has nicer people, better fishing, and quite frankly I'm sick to death of tropical weather. Besides, since the Olympics, I've suddenly found myself watching hockey more often. And everybody knows that the only Rush worth listening to is a 3 piece band from...Canada. :theband:

I thought about moving to Canada, too. Not sure they'd take us but it may become a viable option if things keep going they way they are.

Hey bro, once you dump that house......come on out to Colorado, you'll always have a place to crash as long as I'm here :beers8:

[jacksmar]

Delete duplicate.

Formula One this weekend!!!

[jacksmar]

Report: Senate Health Bill Will Raise Costs - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126058555567888547.html)

Again, back on topic …………

The senate health care bill allows the government to extend its power and exert commie lib control on Americans’ health care through mandates, rules, fines, and taxes. It doesn’t fix the problem. There will be new taxes dumb asses. Excise taxes on health plans, medical devices, and prescription drugs will drive up patient costs. Commie lib federal mandates will impose higher costs on a younger percent of the population. It’s just how it is. There are commie lib mandates with financial penalties. The amount of the fines are picked out of a cloud, they don’t have any reason to them.

This probably too technical for the dumbasses here but I’ll give it a try. There is a sliding scale for health-insurance subsidies.

Explanation: Subsidies help people pay for premiums and they also pay for cost sharing for those with private health insurance.

The unintended consequence is the fact the percentages for health-insurance subsidies are picked out of the same senate cloud. This will radically raise marginal income tax rates for middle class recipients.

More explanation: The Share of health premiums becomes based on income. This approach mandates the percentage of the premium for coverage that a family would be required to pay based on their income. This is a TAX INCREASE.

It’s amazing how commie libs always need tax money for abortion. They couldn't kill a an unborn kid without your fucking government money, unless it actually was a choice between a woman and her doctor. (For the right wing nut cases, they actually used to do that before Roe V Wade. And they STILL incinerate still born babies and after birth.)

Nick almost slid into this one with his insult about me. Suppose for a second one the ladies that was at our after CONCERT party in Daytona Shores needed a doctors care. (Not some senator or congressman pretending to be one or know how that profession works, an actual fucking doctor) I’m not allowed to have cheaper insurance from another state that I’m willing to pay for now with prez shit stains' sponsored senate bill. The commie lib senate bill does nothing to abolish the prohibition against buying health insurance across state lines.

Sheepfucker wants to make this a moral imperative. So to play along with sheepfucker, let’s make this a moral imperative. Do I need a trillion dollars to hit an arbitrary target? The moral imperative obviates the issues with health care reform: lower costs, tort reform, and interstate purchasing.

The commie lib left knows its “reforms” will require political rationing of care. That’s a fucking fact. Insurance companies do it now and the senate bill will do the same. The senate bill just requires the fucking government and some worthless sociologist to determine what fucking care they deem necessary to you. The commie lib CUNT speaker doesn’t want the public to figure this out or sissy boyfriend the senate leader.

[Blackflag]

But is it not also civilized to ensure that no-one in our society will go without food, and without access to the healthcare that all other members of that society enjoy? Or is it a case of 'you're on your own Jack?'

It's definitely more like, 'you're on your own jack' here than in the UK. And that's the way it should be, because the more you give some people these feel-good economic benefits, the more you infringe on the rights of the other people. That's not true for the fundamental rights.

But I don't think those are rights in the UK, either. Ask yourself - if the legislature voted to do away with those social benefits, would you be able to demand your right to free housing? Could you sue the government to get your free housing and free food? I doubt it.


Not to get too far off topic, but of the little I know about British law, I know they have far broader sovereign immunity in the UK than in the US. So you may not be able to sue to government to enforce much at all. And if you can't enforce it, it's not a right. You may have fewer rights than you think.

[jacksmar]

"You fucking Conservatives had almost double the time to abolish abortion and everyone of of those Presidents ran on a Pro-Life platform but did nothing to save the babies. Why is that?"

Because it was legislated from the bench, simp. You are either way too stupid to understand that or you are the typical commie lib that loves to kill unborn kids.

No one suffers from lack of health care in Colorado do they KKK. So what the fuck is going on in your fucking part of the state? I'll help KKK. Let's see: Water rights, fishing is fun grant, high school healthy choices, sewage treatment, and of course in Colorado; medical mary fucking jane.

Nice KKK. Your community is leading the fucking way on insurance companies fucking over payees. Pavement vs health care. This is problem KKK. You need to discuss a road getting paved vs the billions of people getting denied health care in Manitou Springs.

THIS IS YOUR ONLY WARNING JACKASS. POST THAT SHIT AGAIN AND YOU'RE GONE

[kwame k]

Because it was legislated from the bench, simp. You are either way too stupid to understand that or you are the typical commie lib that loves to kill unborn kids.


...and who appoints the judges to the bench you fucking Conservative Communist? If it's not spoken to you in monosyllabic words and painted in a monochromatic picture you are fucking clueless.

You really hate this country don't you.

[jacksmar]

THIS IS YOUR ONLY WARNING JACKASS. POST THAT SHIT AGAIN AND YOU'RE GONE

And the censorship keeps on coming from the most enlightened fucks.

The senate bill is an abortion bill. Point made.

You mods okay with dead Kennedy shots? You haven't rolled out Ted's fat dead bloated carcass to support your senate bill in while.

Get off your high fucking horse commie libs. Normally I'd put a picture of what health care rationing looks like (mods go on alert) but I can explain the commie lib mantra for health care rationing:

Rationing protects your share!!!

There it is.
And abortion will be paid for by doctors, patients; hell everyone except Congress and FBHO.

The next issue commie libs will inject (heh) into the discourse: race. Commie libs are sooooooooooo predictable.

[FORD]

Fuck off. No Liberal is in favor of this clusterfuck bill. No commie (if there were any such thing here) would look twice at it.

And it's a CORPORATIST bill, bailing out yet another corrupt industry. Repukes should love it.

[jacksmar]

Sorry FORD. We actually agree. I'm not a fan of insurance companies at all. And my Senator Bill Nelson is the insurance queen.

The Demococks do love it or they wouldn't try to force the issue. That's how it is.

[jacksmar]

Oh yeah, and fuck you too.

[LoungeMachine]

THIS IS YOUR ONLY WARNING JACKASS. POST THAT SHIT AGAIN AND YOU'RE GONE

And the censorship keeps on coming from the most enlightened fucks.

.

Take your cries of censorship and shove 'em up your ass.

Don't like that we dont allow pics like that? Tough shit, find another site.

Your whining will get you nowhere.

:gulp:

Don't believe me? try it again.

[LoungeMachine]

Sorry FORD. We actually agree. I'm not a fan of insurance companies at all. And my Senator Bill Nelson is the insurance queen.

The Demococks do love it or they wouldn't try to force the issue. That's how it is.

I agree with you too.

But fuck you anyway for posting that shit.

:gulp:

[kwame k]

The only thing normal people are for is affordable health care........

Look at the posts here Jackass, no one is in favor of this bill.

You let your simple minded bullshit blind you to that fact, asshole.

[Nickdfresh]

Sadly, that's what it will come down to...just like Canada and the UK.

Fear not Bri, braindeads like you will still be able to walk around and vote on life-support...:)

[kwame k]

That's why they're scared of the Death Panels........there's a minimum IQ requirement attached to it.

It all makes sense now :umm:

[Nickdfresh]

...
Explanation: Subsidies help people pay for premiums and they also pay for cost sharing for those with private health insurance.

The unintended consequence is the fact the percentages for health-insurance subsidies are picked out of the same senate cloud. This will radically raise marginal income tax rates for middle class recipients.

No it won't actually, and the deficit will ultimately shrink a bit, at least the portion caused by health expenditures as nearly everyone will be covered; and the cascading, catastrophic effects (i.e. bankruptcies) of people with no insurance getting terminally ill or severe maladies will be lessened...


...
It’s amazing how commie libs always need tax money for abortion. They couldn't kill a an unborn kid without your fucking government money, unless it actually was a choice between a woman and her doctor. (For the right wing nut cases, they actually used to do that before Roe V Wade. And they STILL incinerate still born babies and after birth.)...

Specifically how does the bill fund abortions? Secondly, it might well be gov't money well spent if it were the case as we have lowered crime rates, less welfare caseloads, and all of those black children you secretly hate won't have to be born.

It's funny how you holier-than-now (porn loving, promiscuous) jerksoffs get to lecture everyone on your feel-good peeve of abortion. Yet:

a.) you don't give a flying fuck about the kids here living in poverty already here

b.) you want the ones already here to die because you don't want them to have "food money" and health insurance

c.) the tax dollars you sent to the Pentagon has killed hundreds of children already here

d.) I've never been responsible for an abortion. I'm not sure you could say the same...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

THIS IS YOUR ONLY WARNING JACKASS. POST THAT SHIT AGAIN AND YOU'RE GONE

And the censorship keeps on coming from the most enlightened fucks.

Call it whatever you want, but his warning is dead-on....

Debate the issue 'til you're blue in the face, but don't post another pic like that if you want to continue posting....

[jacksmar]

Well,
I guess your buddy Lounge isn’t the RUDE one after all.

Navy buddies?

[Va Beach VH Fan]

And trust me, calling me rude will only hasten your departure...

You've been warned....

[jacksmar]

Nick,
You just made a whole lot of assumptions about me, none true.

There is no moral difference between a one year old child and a one month old child unborn. Every procured abortion intentionally kills a child.

Back on topic......
Section 1303(b)(1)(A) allows a “qualified health plan” one that participates in an Exchange and is available to individuals who receive tax credits to cover part of their insurance premiums; to include abortion coverage.

Going back to an earlier post for Nick, insurance plans that cover elective abortions will receive these federal subsidies.
Now Nick is up to speed.

Too bad I can't post pictures here. These substantive discourses with a bunch of commie libs really can't be illustrated in the same way a picture would convey a message.

Rationing is in the bill as well. Manager's Amendment Section 10320 (pp. 180-90)

A new board will change the way reimbursement rates are structured away from a fee-for-service model. Doctors are paid a set annual amount per patient under which a set amount is paid per illness or injury. The doctor or other health care provider would have a strong financial incentive to limit treatment especially if it is costly. This new board is called the Independent Payment Advisory Board. It is a mandate. They will limit the ability of private citizens to spend their own money to protect their own lives, by obtaining health care or health insurance that is not rationed.

(This is where a rationed health care picture would be placed, but all these "bad boy" Roth fan mods are actually too conservative to allow one to be viewed.)

[Blackflag]

What was the picture? Was it a picture of the puny lounge queen in drag? Nick's mom giving head in an alley?

[Blackflag]

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with Jacksmear's posts...but I have to wonder where the hell that name came from!

[jacksmar]

Jackson Guitars
Marshall Amps

Struggled with Jack Mars but it sounded too close to Mick.

[Blackflag]

See, I knew there was a simple explanation.

[chefcraig]

And the censorship keeps on coming from the most enlightened fucks.

The senate bill is an abortion bill. Point made.




Too bad I can't post pictures here. These substantive discourses with a bunch of commie libs really can't be illustrated in the same way a picture would convey a message...
(This is where a rationed health care picture would be placed, but all these "bad boy" Roth fan mods are actually too conservative to allow one to be viewed.)

To review, you are saying that in order to convey your ideas clearly and to get your point across, whatever you type must be accompanied by an image of a bleeding baby, and it is the fault of those you are addressing that this is so.

OK, that's great to know, as the information can be applied to anything else you might care to offer in the way of political discourse in the future. And good luck with that.

[Angel]

NEWSFLASH: There are NO DEATH PANELS in Canada. That's just more bs made up by Rove to scare you!

Holy fuck, how fucking gullible are you????

[jacksmar]

To review, you are saying that in order to convey your ideas clearly and to get your point across, whatever you type must be accompanied by an image of a bleeding baby, and it is the fault of those you are addressing that this is so.

OK, that's great to know, as the information can be applied to anything else you might care to offer in the way of political discourse in the future. And good luck with that.

No, to review and for review, the picture of an aborted baby made the point. The senate bill is an abortion bill. The fault is with those that support killing unborn kids. And without a picture, if you support the senate bill you support abortion because you are pro abortion.

The political discourse here is worth gnat shit. If the "bad boy" Roth fan mods don't agree with the illustration of the of the discussion, they take it upon themselves to change the course of the political discourse. Not that I particularly give a shit but it is a fact.

Back on topic...........

The cost of the bill is $2.5 trillion over 10 years of full implementation but they are out years like any chicken shit commie lib plan. The out years from prez shit stain would be 2014-2023. Taxes will go up $493.6 billion dollars. But the part that is getting missed by Repukes and Demococks is the IRS will need $5-$10 billion to expand and implement the provisions in the bill.

Expand the fucking IRS to implement health care? Fuck you Obama.
You are a true Marxist.

[LoungeMachine]

. And without a picture, if you support the senate bill you support abortion because you are pro abortion.

.

Nobody is "pro abortion" moron.

:gulp:

Enough with the rhetoric.

And if you're unable to articulate your point without pictures, then that's a fault of your own shortcomings.

[chefcraig]

No, to review and for review, the picture of an aborted baby made the point. The senate bill is an abortion bill. The fault is with those that support killing unborn kids. And without a picture, if you support the senate bill you support abortion because you are pro abortion.

The political discourse here is worth gnat shit. If the "bad boy" Roth fan mods don't agree with the illustration of the of the discussion, they take it upon themselves to change the course of the political discourse. Not that I particularly give a shit but it is a fact.


I'm not about to type this out again, so here: http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/1438895-post2.html

Further off the topic: Thanks for the reminder on the F-1 race this week. Speed Channel is still running the live program at an ungodly 7:30AM, but they've continued the idea from last season of showing a repeat in the afternoon. Now if they'll just not show the reruns against NASCAR broadcasts...

[jacksmar]

Nobody is "pro abortion" moron.

:gulp:

Enough with the rhetoric.

And if you're unable to articulate your point without pictures, then that's a fault of your own shortcomings.

Thanks, and it's good you know it all. If we were to just take your fucking word for it, like the shit stain prez says.

Fuck.

Head of Pro-Abortion Women's Group NOW to Resign as National President
June 15, 2009
Kim Gandy, the president of the pro-abortion women's group NOW plans to resign her position at the organization's national convention later this week. The organization has been criticized during Gandy's 22-year tenure as a leader within the organization for misrepresenting women by promoting abortion.

Obama Science Czar: Force Government Sterilizations
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY, 7/20/09

Leadership: Our new science czar, John Holdren, once backed compulsory sterilization and forced abortion as part of a government population-control program. The only thing missing was a Soylent Green recipe.


Pro-Abortion Obama Pick Dawn Johnsen Gets 60th Vote From Arlen Specter

Jan 13, 2010
In a flip-flop that could provide her the 60th and final vote she needs to overcome a pro-life filibuster, pro-abortion Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter has changed his mind and decided to support Dawn Johnsen. She is the pro-abortion activist President Barack Obama nominated to a key Justice Department position.

Here's a picture for you Lounge
:finger33:

[LoungeMachine]

:lmao:

The simpleton can Google the term "pro abortion"

Yes, mensa. The term is used, but that doesn't make it literal. :rolleyes:

pro-abortion rights is different from.... oh nevermind. It would just be lost on a mouthbreather like yourself.

Guess what? Roe V. Wade is THE LAW in this country.

So suck on it, shit for brains. :D

Whine all you want.

And please, by all means post that pic again. I'd love to see your pathetic ass banned.

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Nick,
You just made a whole lot of assumptions about me, none true.

Oh. Funny, I recall you telling Kristy what a chick-banging machine you were or some such thing...

But in any case, YOU'RE the one making assumptions, pal. In post after post...


There is no moral difference between a one year old child and a one month old child unborn. Every procured abortion intentionally kills a child.

Patently false. A one year old can survive outside the womb. The one-month old is a collection of cells, a primordial blob...

Nobody likes abortion, dude. Nobody I've ever known. But it is a procedure that some women elect for various reasons. You won't ever have to make that choice on your own body...


Back on topic......
Section 1303(b)(1)(A) allows a “qualified health plan” one that participates in an Exchange and is available to individuals who receive tax credits to cover part of their insurance premiums; to include abortion coverage.

How is giving a "tax credit" funding abortion?


Going back to an earlier post for Nick, insurance plans that cover elective abortions will receive these federal subsidies.
Now Nick is up to speed.

OMG! Really? You're supposedly a "Republican," and you're referring to tax breaks as "federal subsidies?" Really?

I'm going to draw with a Sharpie all over your Ayn Rand poster for that one! :)


Too bad I can't post pictures here. These substantive discourses with a bunch of commie libs really can't be illustrated in the same way a picture would convey a message.

Pictures of what? Children U.S. airmen killed (albeit inadvertently) in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and the Persian Gulf...

Maybe you should get over being a sadistic asshole that rejoices in other peoples' public, graphic deaths though...


Rationing is in the bill as well. Manager's Amendment Section 10320 (pp. 180-90)

I fuck well hope so! And you ARGUED FOR rationing in one of your other posts! Feel free to completely contradict yourself...


A new board will change the way reimbursement rates are structured away from a fee-for-service model. Doctors are paid a set annual amount per patient under which a set amount is paid per illness or injury. The doctor or other health care provider would have a strong financial incentive to limit treatment especially if it is costly. This new board is called the Independent Payment Advisory Board. It is a mandate. They will limit the ability of private citizens to spend their own money to protect their own lives, by obtaining health care or health insurance that is not rationed.

(This is where a rationed health care picture would be placed, but all these "bad boy" Roth fan mods are actually too conservative to allow one to be viewed.)

Good! Maybe this will limit frivolous, bullshit things hypochondriacs run into clinics and to their health care providers for every three minutes...

[Nickdfresh]

What was the picture? Was it a picture of the puny lounge queen in drag? Nick's mom giving head in an alley?

Maybe it was a picture of you giving GAR and Jacksmar a reach-around during a session of hard anal?

[jacksmar]

Nick,
All those statement were anti, con, not. MK?

"I'm going to draw with a Sharpie all over your Ayn Rand poster for that one!"
Sometimes you are seriously weird:)!!!:)

[LoungeMachine]

Funny you can link photos but are not bright enough to use the quote function properly....

:gulp:

Simple times for simple minds....

[hideyoursheep]

Nick,


Back on topic......
Section 1303(b)(1)(A) allows a “qualified health plan” one that participates in an Exchange and is available to individuals who receive tax credits to cover part of their insurance premiums; to include abortion coverage.

Going back to an earlier post for Nick, insurance plans that cover elective abortions will receive these federal subsidies.
Now Nick is up to speed.


This should tickle you cuntervative NeoCunts silly... you can simultaneously bitch about using Government MONEY on ending unwanted or life -threatening pregnancies, AND whine about how Government MONEY is being spent on supporting those who WERE NOT aborted.

Pro-life my ass. You want to protect the unborn, and throw the living under the bus. You can't have it both ways.

[jacksmar]

"Guess what? Roe V. Wade is THE LAW in this country."

Can't argue with that one.

Let me get you a cannula and some black cohosh. Insert a syringe with a spinal needle and follow that up with a lye douche. Now you're going to need a shop vac. :appl:

Just trying to help you and your shit stain leader out. FBHO has actually spoken about the "dreaded complication" otherwise known as live birth. Forceps please.

[hideyoursheep]

What does any of that drivel have to do with your hypocrisy?

[kwame k]

What does any of that drivel have to do with your hypocrisy?

...or reality and facts.

[LoungeMachine]

"Guess what? Roe V. Wade is THE LAW in this country."

Can't argue with that one.

Let me get you a cannula and some black cohosh. Insert a syringe with a spinal needle and follow that up with a lye douche. Now you're going to need a shop vac. :appl:

Just trying to help you and your shit stain leader out. FBHO has actually spoken about the "dreaded complication" otherwise known as live birth. Forceps please.

:rolleyes:

Learn how to use the quote function, mensa.......

[jacksmar]

Deleted duplicate.
Ferrari wins.

[jacksmar]

"You want to protect the unborn, and throw the living under the bus. You can't have it both ways. "

Sheepfucker, you bet your ignorant fucked up life I can. You're just too fucking stupid to admit it.

Here you go :asshole:
Protect an unborn child.

Execute Ana Marie Cardona
Execute Tiffany Cole
Execute Daniel Troya
Execute Ricardo Sanchez Jr
Two killers convicted in turnpike drug murders are first in Florida to get federal death sentence - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-turnpike-killings-death-p051209,0,1659230.story)

[LoungeMachine]

Jesus Christ, do I need to send you the basic steps of using the quote function, moron?

Common sense, common courtesy....

and easier for your little brain too!

:gulp:

[hideyoursheep]

:lmao:

And I'm the stupid, fucked up, ignorant one.


No logical explanation for your political or social stance on being "pro-life" when you approve of the death penalty and no health care for those unable to afford it, eh?

Didn't think so. :D

Still don't know how any of that aforementioned shit clears you of being a Hindenburg sized hypocrite.

I know it's the internets and all, but I'm not going to be many more of those fucked up ignorant assholes...at least as far as you're concerned.


You want some?

:tongue0011:

[hideyoursheep]

Jackson guitars?

:lmao:


:homoswitch:

Disclaimer: not intended for other owners of Jackson instruments.Comment exclusively directed at jagoffsmear and his gaia-faggotry.

[hideyoursheep]

Just kidding, jellosmear...

I tend not to take seriously the word of someone who dresses up like Paul Stanly on a regular basis.
:hee:

[hideyoursheep]

I could do this all night...but you're too slow, and I gotta bounce...sorry, jackqueer.