House may try to pass Senate health-care bill without voting on it

[BigBadBrian]

House may try to pass Senate health-care bill without voting on it

By Lori Montgomery and Paul Kane
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, March 16, 2010



After laying the groundwork for a decisive vote this week on the Senate's health-care bill, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi suggested Monday that she might attempt to pass the measure without having members vote on it.

Instead, Pelosi (D-Calif.) would rely on a procedural sleight of hand: The House would vote on a more popular package of fixes to the Senate bill; under the House rule for that vote, passage would signify that lawmakers "deem" the health-care bill to be passed.

The tactic -- known as a "self-executing rule" or a "deem and pass" -- has been commonly used, although never to pass legislation as momentous as the $875 billion health-care bill. It is one of three options that Pelosi said she is considering for a late-week House vote, but she added that she prefers it because it would politically protect lawmakers who are reluctant to publicly support the measure.

"It's more insider and process-oriented than most people want to know," the speaker said in a roundtable discussion with bloggers Monday. "But I like it," she said, "because people don't have to vote on the Senate bill."

Republicans quickly condemned the strategy, framing it as an effort to avoid responsibility for passing the legislation, and some suggested that Pelosi's plan would be unconstitutional.

"It's very painful and troubling to see the gymnastics through which they are going to avoid accountability," Rep. David Dreier (Calif.), the senior Republican on the House Rules Committee, told reporters. "And I hope very much that, at the end of the day, that if we are going to have a vote, we will have a clean up-or-down vote that will allow the American people to see who is supporting this Senate bill and who is not supporting this Senate bill."

House leaders have worked for days to round up support for the legislation, but the Senate measure has drawn fierce opposition from a broad spectrum of members. Antiabortion Democrats say it would permit federal funding for abortion, liberals oppose its tax on high-cost insurance plans, and Republicans say the measure overreaches and is too expensive.

Some senior lawmakers have acknowledged in recent days that Democrats lack the votes for passage. Pelosi, however, predicted Monday that she would deliver.

"When we have a bill, then we will let you know about the votes. But when we bring the bill to the floor, we will have the votes," she told reporters.

Pelosi said Monday that House Democrats have yet to decide how to approach the vote. But she added that any strategy involving a separate vote on the Senate bill "isn't too popular," and aides said the leadership is likely to bow to the wishes of its rank and file.

As Pelosi and other congressional leaders pressed wavering lawmakers, President Obama highlighted how close the result may be as he focused his attention Monday on Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio), who has been a stalwart no vote on health-care reform.

Kucinich, an uncompromising liberal, has rejected any measure without a government-run insurance plan. Obama invited Kucinich to join him aboard Air Force One for a trip to suburban Cleveland, where the president made a plea for reform, the third such pitch in eight days.

As he addressed a crowd of more than 1,400, Obama repeatedly called on lawmakers to summon the "courage to pass the far-reaching package." He painted the existing insurance system as a nightmare for millions of American who cannot afford quality coverage.

The president lashed out at Republican critics who have argued that the health-care initiative would undermine Medicare, and he argued that the measure would end "the worst practices" of insurance companies.

"I don't know about the politics, but I know what's the right thing to do," he said, nearly shouting as the crowd cheered. "And so I'm calling on Congress to pass these reforms -- and I'm going to sign them into law. I want some courage. I want us to do the right thing."

Asked whether he was reconsidering his position, Kucinich demurred. But Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio) said Kucinich is coming under intense pressure from Ohioans who want Congress to act, and from his colleagues in Washington.

"All of us -- the governor, the congressional delegation, the president -- are making clear to Dennis that we won't have another chance for a decade if this doesn't happen," Brown said.

Persuading liberals such as Kucinich to support the Senate bill is critical to the Democratic strategy, which has been rewritten since January, when Democrats lost their supermajority in the Senate. The Senate Democratic caucus, reduced to 59 seats, lost its ability to override Republican filibusters and soon abandoned plans to pass a revised version of the health-care bill that would reflect a compromise with House leaders.

As House leaders looked for a path that could get the Senate legislation through the chamber and onto Obama's desk, conservatives warned that Pelosi's use of deem-and-pass in this way would run afoul of the Constitution. They pointed to a 1998 Supreme Court ruling that said each house of Congress must approve the exact same text of a bill before it can become law. A self-executing rule sidesteps that requirement, former federal appellate judge Michael McConnell argued in a Wall Street Journal op-ed.

Democrats were also struggling Monday to put the finishing touches on the package of fixes. Under reconciliation rules, it is protected from filibusters and could pass the Senate with only 50 votes, but can include only provisions that would affect the budget.

Democratic leaders learned over the weekend that they may not be able to include a number of favored items, including some Republican proposals to stem fraud in federal health-care programs and a plan to weaken a new board that would be empowered to cut Medicare payments.

Rep. Chris Van Hollen (Md.), the Democratic leader tasked with protecting politically vulnerable incumbents, said Republicans would twist the nature of the health-care vote, no matter how the leadership proceeds. He defended the deem-and-pass strategy as a way "to make it clear we're amending the Senate bill."

Without that approach, Van Hollen warned, "people are going to try to create the impression that the Senate bill is the final product, and it's not."

Undecided Democrats appeared unconcerned by the flap. Rep. Bart Gordon (D-Tenn.), a retiring lawmaker who opposed the original House bill and is undecided on the new package, mocked Republican criticism of the process. Ultimately, he said, voters will hold lawmakers responsible for any changes in law.

"I don't think anybody's going to say that we didn't vote for the bill," he said.

Staff writer Peter Slevin in Ohio contributed to this report.
Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/15/AR2010031503742_pf.html)

[BigBadBrian]

"It's more insider and process-oriented than most people want to know," the speaker said in a roundtable discussion with bloggers Monday. "But I like it," she said, "because people don't have to vote on the Senate bill."


If these criminals get away with this shit, the Armed Forces of the United States needs to put Pelosi, Reid, and Obama under arrest and in chains.

Either way, the Democrats will have hell to pay in November.

[ELVIS]

http://garychapelhill.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/cowardly-lion.jpg?w=211&h=300


:biggrin:

[LoungeMachine]

If these criminals get away with this shit, the Armed Forces of the United States needs to put Pelosi, Reid, and Obama under arrest and in chains.

.

Okay, who had MARCH 16 in the RA pool as to when Brie would call for a military coup?



:gulp:

[jhale667]

Okay, who had MARCH 16 in the RA pool as to when Brie would call for a military coup?



:gulp:

:lmao:

[Nitro Express]

I think Obama, Pelosi, and Reid should have their personal assets seized and they should be jailed by Homeland Security for being terrorists and the money should go to providing healthcare for the poor.

[Blackflag]

she prefers it because it would politically protect lawmakers who are reluctant to publicly support the measure.

What the fuck? Did I wake up in the wrong country?

[Blackflag]

I think Obama, Pelosi, and Reid should have their personal assets seized and they should be jailed by Homeland Security for being terrorists and the money should go to providing healthcare for the poor.

Maybe they should be put in Guantanamo without trial, since they seem to think that's acceptable for terrorists.

[FORD]

If they want to pass a bill without a vote, then there is a simple solution:

Dump this corporate cocksucking bullshit bill, and pass HR 676 (Medicare for all)

Problem solved.

[Blackflag]

If they want to pass a bill without a vote, then there is a simple solution:

Dump this corporate cocksucking bullshit bill, and pass HR 676 (Medicare for all)

Problem solved.

So passing laws without representation is fine - as long as you agree with it?

Grow up. Logic like that is why this place is so fucked up right now.

[ELVIS]

yeah right...

[FORD]

So passing laws without representation is fine - as long as you agree with it?

Grow up. Logic like that is why this place is so fucked up right now.

75% of Americans want single payer insurance, and the other 25% have been criminally misinformed by a foreign owned propaganda network (FAUX Noise) as to what that term means. (i.e. the old people, obviously on Medicare themselves, screaming at teabagger rallies to "KEEP GUVERMINT AWAY FROM MY HEALTHCARE !!11!!")

[Blackflag]

75% of Americans want single payer insurance,

Then there's no reason not to have an open, public vote on it. It's called democracy, dumbass.

[BigBadBrian]

If they want to pass a bill without a vote, then there is a simple solution:

Dump this corporate cocksucking bullshit bill, and pass HR 676 (Medicare for all)

Problem solved.

Except how to pay for it. Don't give me that buying in crap, either. That won't work. It wouldn't even come close to covering the costs. People couldn't afford it and Barry wants to cut $500 Billion from Medicare to help pay for his boondoggle as it is. Grayson is an idiot, and probably the son of an idiot at that.

[BigBadBrian]

75% of Americans want single payer insurance

That is complete and utter bullshit, FORD. It's more like 75% of the people want their insurance to stay the same as it is now.

Quit reading those horses asses on the DU and read some other stuff for once.

[FORD]

That is complete and utter bullshit, FORD. It's more like 75% of the people want their insurance to stay the same as it is now.

Quit reading those horses asses on the DU and read some other stuff for once.

Guess you haven't been to DU lately?

The fucking Rahm Emanuel hired "Message Discipline INC" trolls are trying to take over the board, and any condemnation of the Insurance Corporate Fellation Act of 2010® shall not be tolerated!

The 75% comes from numerous polls taken last summer, before all the teabagger bullshit and corporate misinformation distorted the issues.

And these were "traditional" polls too, not online polls that can be easily manipulated by "rallying the chairborne Rangers" or whatever metaphor you want to apply to the online poll skewing tactics invented by FreeRepublic.com and later adopted by Democratic Underground.

[FORD]

Except how to pay for it. Don't give me that buying in crap, either. That won't work. It wouldn't even come close to covering the costs. People couldn't afford it and Barry wants to cut $500 Billion from Medicare to help pay for his boondoggle as it is. Grayson is an idiot, and probably the son of an idiot at that.

Paying for it is easy.......

1) End the useless occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.

2) Never start any other wars which are not directly related to an actual proven tangible threat to the United States of America.

3) End all government subsidies of harmful industries like tobacco and GMO corn.

4) Restore the tax levels on the rich to the Eisenhower era numbers.

And of course you would also have the money currently being paid to corporate insurance companies, going into Medicare.

Funding is not a problem, if we just do what is right.

[VanHalener]

I am in and out of DC once a week lately, and the bullshit in the air was smelling pretty bad as I drove through today.

[SilvioDante]

I just heard Obama say that premiums will drop 3000%! If that's true (why would he lie to the American people... right???) then I should get a $3000 a month raise!!!

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lUd-slJc-GY&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lUd-slJc-GY&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

I AM NOW OFFICIALLY ON BOARD!!!!

Socialism Fever....CATCH IT!!!!!

[FORD]

How the fuck are mandatory payments to a private insurance corporation even remotely considered "socialism"? :confused:

[Blackflag]

In this case, the only difference between socialism and facism is who's taking your fucking money. The fuck difference does it make?

[LoungeMachine]

Since the supreme court has essentially deemed corporations "people", why not just cut out the middleman [congress] and let United HealthCare, Inc. write the laws....

To think we still live in "democracy" [or even a republic for that matter] is laughable.

Corporations and Lobbyists run this country, they just use our elected members of congress as their mouthpiece.

Throw 'em all out, rewrite campaign finance rules and regulate lobbyists back to the stone age...

While we're on a roll, make it law that anyone that serves in congress, or FOR a congressperson may NOT work for a registered lobbyist for 20 years....

:gulp:

The whole system is a clusterfucking joke

[Seshmeister]

Okay, who had MARCH 16 in the RA pool as to when Brie would call for a military coup?



:gulp:

It's about time they put the US Military directly under the control of the Australian billionaires so that freedom can be maintained.

[Unchainme]

Paying for it is easy.......

1) End the useless occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.

2) Never start any other wars which are not directly related to an actual proven tangible threat to the United States of America.

3) End all government subsidies of harmful industries like tobacco and GMO corn.

4) Restore the tax levels on the rich to the Eisenhower era numbers..

Agree with this all except for number 4 on things that need to be done in this country (not so much the gov't health care section)

Tax break, across the board 20%. I think that someone like..say..Lounge, should have the right to donate his money where ever he feels fit, rather than watch his money get pissed away on a meaningless war or something of that nature.

Bring back power to the individual and remove it from DC and Big Business.

This bill is horseshit, it's being forced down our throats and no side agrees that it's a good idea. And the way it is being pushed through congress is right on par with the complete crap we as a country have had to put up with..for..Hell, I don't even remember! I'd say W., but we all know that this has been going for longer than that.

Throw 'em all out and ban political parties in some way, let us vote on someone's integrity or where they stand on issues, not because someone has an "R" or a "D" by their name.

[SilvioDante]

Throw 'em all out

Finally something we can all agree on...

[SilvioDante]

How the fuck are mandatory payments to a private insurance corporation even remotely considered "socialism"? :confused:
The end game in this whole deal is government run single payer. If the government is in charge of my health care, runs my bank, runs my car company, it is a socialist government.

I do not want the government running my health care choices, forcing me to take health care by threat of imprisonment, paying for abortions OR deciding how long I should receive my care when I get sick.

[jhale667]

paying for abortions

It doesn't.

[Seshmeister]

I do not want the government running my health care choices, forcing me to take health care by threat of imprisonment, paying for abortions OR deciding how long I should receive my care when I get sick.

Who do you want to pay for abortions?

Why would you possibly think that a public system means your care would stop or that you couldn't opt out? I hope you haven't been listening to Australian billionaires and insurance companies?

[LoungeMachine]

The end game in this whole deal is government run single payer. If the government is in charge of my health care, runs my bank, runs my car company, it is a socialist government.

I do not want the government running my health care choices, forcing me to take health care by threat of imprisonment, paying for abortions OR deciding how long I should receive my care when I get sick.

:lmao:

Jesus dude turn off the FAUX news for once....


But hey, HERE's a thought....

How do you like the current system where the HealthCare Corporationsare run by DEATH PANELS that decide IF you get treatment, and can RAISE or CANCEL your premiums/coverage at ANYTIME??

How do you like the current system where the entire scam is based on RETURNING PROFITS BASED ON DENYING CARE??????

Get it yet?

Can you vote out of office your insurance company? No.

Hate to break it you you, Champ.... but the big bad "government" is US

:gulp:

God Help us if this is today's low information voter.

[BigBadBrian]

It doesn't.

Under the current HCR Bill it will.

I find funding abortions for stupid women without any knowledge of birth control as revolting as you having your money going to "illegal wars."

[LoungeMachine]

Under the current HCR Bill it will.

I find funding abortions for stupid women without any knowledge of birth control as revolting as you having your money going to "illegal wars."

So do you opt-out of your private insurance company?

Odds are they cover abortion

:gulp:

hypocrite

[FORD]

The end game in this whole deal is government run single payer.

I wish. Unfortunately, it's going in entirely the opposite direction. :(



If the government is in charge of my health care, runs my bank, runs my car company, it is a socialist government.


Keep in mind that government is supposed to be by the people, of the people, and for the people. This country would probably run much better if some things WERE socialized, i.e. owned collectively by the American people.

Look at the things that are "socialized". Such as the police and fire departments. If your local fire department was privately owned, say by Halliburton or Blackwater, odds are they would operate just as the current US health care system does. Your house is burning down? Too goddamn bad because the rich guy across town, well his cat got stuck in a tree, and we must have priorities, ya know.

Health care should be socialized. So should infrastructure. I mentioned returning to Eisenhower's tax rates on the rich earlier. You know what those tax rates did for this country? Rural electrification & indoor plumbing, and under Ike himself, the Interstate Highway system. And if you want to count this as a good thing, all those missiles to scare the Commies away, because back then they weren't trying to create massive deficits.

Car companies should NOT be socialized, nor should any industry which actually makes something, with the exception of the Defense industry, because its the only way to take the greed and the criminal fraud out of it. It was necessary to save General Motors, because so few industries actually make anything anymore, and losing more American jobs wouldn't help anybody. But they should return to private ownership as soon as possible.

As far as banks go, stick with local banks, or credit unions, and fuck criminal organizations like Chase, SaudiBank or Bank of Ripping Off America. Oh, and abolish the fucking "Federal Reserve" (which is neither)

[Seshmeister]

So do you opt-out of your private insurance company?

Odds are they cover abortion


His mother's didn't... :)

[Unchainme]

So, I'm curious, do any of the people who lean towards the left here think that there is a place for private insurance companies?

And I'm not saying that they should remain in their current form, I'm saying with more laws passed that protect the consumer.

I still think that allowing the companies to compete against each other across state lines, mixed in with a possible expanded Medicare that can cover you when you're either poor or disabled should be the way to go.

[FORD]

So, I'm curious, do any of the people who lean towards the left here think that there is a place for private insurance companies?

And I'm not saying that they should remain in their current form, I'm saying with more laws passed that protect the consumer.

I still think that allowing the companies to compete against each other across state lines, mixed in with a possible expanded Medicare that can cover you when you're either poor or disabled should be the way to go.

Switzerland allows private insurance companies. However, they are mandated by law to be non-profit entities, and are very tightly regulated.

If insurance companies were like that here, a private system wouldn't be too bad. Unfortunately, that would require a whole lot of legislation, and in order to get that, you would have to have a whole new Senate and all the lobbyists would need to be dead, or in prison. It would be easier to switch over to single payer than to do that.

[Seshmeister]

I'm not aware of any Western countries that don't still have some sort of a private sector with insurance. Deliberately ignoring that is one of the big lies being put out there by the corporations and right but they have to because it invalidates most of their arguments.

Everywhere apart from maybe Cuba has various hybrids of public and private, even the UK is 10% private. Many systems give tax breaks to people who opt out of the public system.

[Seshmeister]

If insurance companies were like that here, a private system wouldn't be too bad. Unfortunately, that would require a whole lot of legislation,

Very true and you would end up with far more bureacracy trying to regulate them than just having the government run it directly.

[Kristy]

I find funding abortions for stupid women without any knowledge of birth control as revolting as you having your money going to "illegal wars."

Well then, what about the "smart women"? Where do you draw the line on this, asshole? That women who have knowledge of birth control never get pregnant? That "smart women" may never develop health complications associated with pregnancy that may require an abortion? Fuck you and your whole fucking Neanderthal hairy knuckle-dragging post that somehow a prick such as yourself with way to much time on his hands needs to feel victimized if this Bill passes. What's revolting around here is your asinine ignorance.

[LoungeMachine]

What's revolting around here is your asinine ignorance.

Welcome to our world.....

:gulp:

[kwame k]

109th Republican congress used this same tactic 36 times.

Democrats have done this 46 times and there were some major issues that both parties used this on.

It just symptomatic of how partisan congress has become and how nothing can get done unless the majority uses bullying tactics like this.

The one obvious point that is overlooked is congress will still have a vote on this.

[kwame k]

109th Republican congress used this same tactic 36 times.

Democrats have done this 46 times and there were some major issues that both parties used this on.

It just symptomatic of how partisan Washington has become and how nothing can get done unless the majority uses bullying tactics like this.

The one obvious point that is overlooked is congress will still have a vote on this.

[SilvioDante]

First off, I don't watch Fox News, I have a mind of my own. I find Fox and CNN and MSNBC more about ratings and money than information.

Second, I form my opinions on my own research and my knowledge of the health care industry. My wife is a medical biller and I know what I see. I know what private companies do and I have seen first hand the government waste in our Medicare/Medicaid system. HIPPA laws prevent me from discussing most of them...

Third, I live in a state that almost went bankrupt because of government run health care (Tenncare). I would not like to relive it on a national level(although I am sure the Chinese would love to keep funding our government).

Fourth, I just watched my father and my wife's grandmother die of cancer. My father had private insurance and my wife's grandmother had Medicaid. I know which one I want now..

Everything I said earlier was true about what is or was in the bill at one time. I know now we won't know what's in it until we pass it, like Pelosi said.

I just find it hard to believe that everyone here and everyone I know hates the government, but about half want to turn their health care over to them. Ever stand in line at the DMV?

And one more thing, someone said earlier I am a fool to think we live in a republic and he was right...
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. " - Benjamin Franklin

[SilvioDante]

Oh yeah, and one more thing...

Ford, why was GM to big to go under? They made bad business decisions and signed bad union contracts and made cars no one wanted. Why should they be rewarded?

There is talk of a class action lawsuit against Toyota over the pedal problem. If it goes thru, it could possibly bankrupt the company. Will the government bail them out. I know there are Toyota plants in America, there is one in my home town.

Or do you think the GM bailout was more about buying union votes and Toyota is screwed because they are non-union...

[ELVIS]

Will this new mandatory health insurance cover my personal trainer and dietitian expenses ??

[Sgt Schultz]

What..?? Leftist Commie Libs breaking the rules when they don't get their way? I am shocked sir, SHOCKED!

[jhale667]

What..?? Leftist Commie Libs breaking the rules when they don't get their way? I am shocked sir, SHOCKED!

Wow, your reading comprehension isn't all that , huh?


109th Republican congress used this same tactic 36 times.

[ELVIS]

I've never seen so many thanks and groans...

[jhale667]

I've never seen so many thanks and groans...

Have another. ;)

[BigBadBrian]

So do you opt-out of your private insurance company?

Odds are they cover abortion

:gulp:

hypocrite

Nope. Mine doesn't. I know that for a fact.

[BigBadBrian]

Well then, what about the "smart women"? Where do you draw the line on this, asshole? That women who have knowledge of birth control never get pregnant? That "smart women" may never develop health complications associated with pregnancy that may require an abortion? Fuck you and your whole fucking Neanderthal hairy knuckle-dragging post that somehow a prick such as yourself with way to much time on his hands needs to feel victimized if this Bill passes. What's revolting around here is your asinine ignorance.

Listen Kahuna Woman, if I want your mouth open, I'll rattle my zipper. :)

:blow:

And if I revolt you so much, take your fat donut-gobbling ass somewhere else.

[bueno bob]

What..?? Leftist Commie Libs breaking the rules when they don't get their way? I am shocked sir, SHOCKED!

Are you equally shocked when Republicans do it, or is the cock jammed too far up your ass at that point for you to care?

[BigBadBrian]

109th Republican congress used this same tactic 36 times.

Democrats have done this 46 times and there were some major issues that both parties used this on.

It just symptomatic of how partisan Washington has become and how nothing can get done unless the majority uses bullying tactics like this.

The one obvious point that is overlooked is congress will still have a vote on this.

I don't give a fuck who is doing it, it's gotta stop. Personally, I want our Congress to follow the Constitution, not some reach-around sneaky action just so certain Congressmen doesn't have to put their name beside a certain vote. This procedure is bullshit!

[BigBadBrian]

Very true and you would end up with far more bureacracy trying to regulate them than just having the government run it directly.

We would also have sub-standard care, just like you have with your NHS.

[bueno bob]

Listen Kahuna Woman, if I want your mouth open, I'll rattle my zipper. :)

:blow:

And if I revolt you so much, take your fat donut-gobbling ass somewhere else.

I have to admit, I really see an inner beauty to this response. Dickless wonder here proves, all in two sentences, why a double digit IQ will never be able to compete in this forum and be taken seriously.

That said, how does it feel to know that all of your posts are viewed as nothing more than illiterate, rambling spam from a fuckwit cockgobbler with absolutely NOTHING of any value to contribute to anything?

I get the feeling it probably sucks almost as bad as the fact that you can't find anything other than hairy, overweight 60+ year old men to fuck.

Well, almost.

[jhale667]

Listen Kahuna Woman, if I want your mouth open, I'll rattle my zipper. :)

:blow:

And if I revolt you so much, take your fat donut-gobbling ass somewhere else.

Nice debate skills, Mangina. And much like your "zipper rattle" :rolleyes: one imagines if she had wanted to hear what an ASS sounds like, she would have farted.

Since Kristy's already proven herself to be a far more rational, valuable poster than your sorry republican-talking point regurgitating ass (AND unlike you, she's NOT mentally unstable - that we know of) how's about YOU take your repuke cock-gobbling ass elsewhere? :fufu:

[FORD]

Oh yeah, and one more thing...

Ford, why was GM to big to go under? They made bad business decisions and signed bad union contracts and made cars no one wanted. Why should they be rewarded?

There is talk of a class action lawsuit against Toyota over the pedal problem. If it goes thru, it could possibly bankrupt the company. Will the government bail them out. I know there are Toyota plants in America, there is one in my home town.

Or do you think the GM bailout was more about buying union votes and Toyota is screwed because they are non-union...

I'll agree GM screwed themselves by making nothing but gas hog SUV's and pulling the plug on the perfectly functional working electric car model they had. And their executives deserved to go for that alone. Let alone that fucking joke called the Hummer. Or the Escalade, for that matter. Cadillac SUV? What the FUCK were they thinking with that.

But that's not a reason to put millions out of work. And yes, the unions enter into it. Damn right they do, because this country would be a far shittier place without unions. Look at the "quality" of the recent non-union Toyota products, for example. But it goes far beyond the UAW themselves. Been to Flint Michigan lately? Or even Detroit, for that matter? Those GM factories impact a lot more people than just the auto workers themselves.

Of course that's also true of many jobs lost under the sickening criminal economic policies of the last 30 years. :(

[ELVIS]

http://www.cargurus.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/2010-cadillac-srx.jpg

2010 SRX

[ELVIS]

Of course that's also true of many jobs lost under the sickening criminal economic policies of the last 30 years. :(

Obaminhood to the rescue!!!


:biggrin: