U.S. history textbooks could soon be flavored heavily with Texas conservatism

[binnie]

U.S. history textbooks could soon be flavored heavily with Texas conservatism


The nation’s public school curriculum may be in for a Texas-sized overhaul, if the Lone Star state’s influential recommendations for changes to social studies, economics and history textbooks are fully ratified later this spring. Last Friday, in a 10-to-5 vote split right down party lines, the Texas State Board of Education approved some controversial right-leaning alterations to what most students in the state—and by extension, in much of the rest of the country—will be studying as received historical and social-scientific wisdom. After a public comment period, the board will vote on final recommendations in May.

Don McElroy, who leads the board’s powerful seven-member social conservative bloc, explained that the measure is a way of "adding balance" in the classroom, since "academia is skewed too far to the left." And the board's critics have labeled the move an attempt by political "extremists" to "promote their ideology."

The revised standards have far-reaching implications because Texas is a huge market leader in the school-textbook industry. The enormous print run for Texas textbooks leaves most districts in other states adopting the same course materials, so that the Texas School Board effectively spells out requirements for 80 percent of the nation’s textbook market. That means, for instance, that schools in left-leaning states like Oregon and Vermont could soon be teaching from textbooks that are short on references to Ted Kennedy but long on references to conservative activist Phyllis Schlafly.

Here are some of the other signal shifts that the Texas Board endorsed last Friday:

- A greater emphasis on “the conservative resurgence of the 1980s and 1990s.” This means not only increased favorable mentions of Schlafly, the founder of the antifeminist Eagle Forum, but also more discussion of the Moral Majority, the Heritage Foundation, the National Rifle Association and Newt Gingrich's Contract With America.

- A reduced scope for Latino history and culture. A proposal to expand such material in recognition of Texas’ rapidly growing Hispanic population was defeated in last week’s meetings—provoking one board member, Mary Helen Berlanga, to storm out in protest. "They can just pretend this is a white America and Hispanics don’t exist," she said of her conservative colleagues on the board. "They are rewriting history, not only of Texas but of the United States and the world."

- Changes in specific terminology. Terms that the board’s conservative majority felt were ideologically loaded are being retired. Hence, “imperialism” as a characterization of America’s modern rise to world power is giving way to “expansionism,” and “capitalism” is being dropped in economic material, in favor of the more positive expression “free market.” (The new recommendations stress the need for favorable depictions of America’s economic superiority across the board.)


- A more positive portrayal of Cold War anticommunism. Disgraced anticommunist crusader Joseph McCarthy, the Wisconsin senator censured by the Senate for his aggressive targeting of individual citizens and their civil liberties on the basis of their purported ties to the Communist Party, comes in for partial rehabilitation. The board recommends that textbooks refer to documents published since McCarthy’s death and the fall of the Soviet bloc that appear to show expansive Soviet designs to undermine the U.S. government.

- Language that qualifies the legacy of 1960s liberalism. Great Society programs such as Title IX—which provides for equal gender access to educational resources—and affirmative action, intended to remedy historic workplace discrimination against African-Americans, are said to have created adverse “unintended consequences” in the curriculum’s preferred language.


- Thomas Jefferson no longer included among writers influencing the nation’s intellectual origins. Jefferson, a deist who helped pioneer the legal theory of the separation of church and state, is not a model founder in the board’s judgment. Among the intellectual forerunners to be highlighted in Jefferson’s place: medieval Catholic philosopher St. Thomas Aquinas, Puritan theologian John Calvin and conservative British law scholar William Blackstone. Heavy emphasis is also to be placed on the founding fathers having been guided by strict Christian beliefs.

- Excision of recent third-party presidential candidates Ralph Nader (from the left) and Ross Perot (from the centrist Reform Party). Meanwhile, the recommendations include an entry listing Confederate General Stonewall Jackson as a role model for effective leadership, and a statement from Confederate President Jefferson Davis accompanying a speech by U.S. President Abraham Lincoln.

- A recommendation to include country and western music among the nation’s important cultural movements. The popular black genre of hip-hop is being dropped from the same list.

None of these proposals has met with final ratification from the board—that vote will come in May, after a prolonged period of public comment on the recommendations. Still, the conservatives clearly feel like the bulk of their work is done; after the 120-page draft was finalized last Friday, Republican board member Terri Leo declared that it was "world class" and "exceptional."

—Brett Michael Dykes is a national affairs writer for Yahoo! News

U.S. history textbooks could soon be flavored heavily with Texas conservatism - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts1253)

[binnie]

This is the first thread I've started in this forum, as I make no claims to expertise with regard to American politics. I thought this was really interesting - it got me thinking about who has the power to decide what constitutes 'history' and how it is expressed in schools.

[Blackflag]

If they think they can piss all over Thomas Jefferson, they can fuck off right now.

On the other hand...

http://thm-a04.yimg.com/nimage/822a91f8ec34bd0a

[jhale667]

This isn't an example of "Texas conservatism"...more like "Revisionist History" - and it's bullshit.

[FORD]

Absolutely sickening. And what is truly scary about this, is that because of Texas' large size, it has more schools than most other states, and therefore has a disproportionate amount of influence in what is or is not included in text books which will be used not only in their backwards Chimp-damaged educational system, but in all schools nationwide.

Add this to the fucking "charter schools" (right wing privatization) bullshit currently being pushed heavily on our public school system and it's a recipe for fascist dumbing down all around.

[Blackflag]

Absolutely sickening. And what is truly scary about this, is that because of Texas' large size, it has more schools than most other states, and therefore has a disproportionate amount of influence in what is or is not included in text books which will be used not only in their backwards Chimp-damaged educational system, but in all schools nationwide.

The same argument was made about California and their P.C. bullshit.

Everybody just needs to keep their fucking opinions to themselves, on both sides.

[jhale667]

The same argument was made about California and their P.C. bullshit.

Everybody just needs to keep their fucking opinions to themselves, on both sides.

While I agree with your 2nd statement...
California wasn't trying to marginalize specific ethnic groups.

[Blackflag]

While I agree with your 2nd statement...
California wasn't trying to marginalize specific ethnic groups.

That's just a difference in viewpoint, but you're not objective enough to see it.

Teach the kids to add and write. Leave the fucking opinions at home.

[jhale667]

That's just a difference in viewpoint, but you're not objective enough to see it.

Teach the kids to add and write. Leave the fucking opinions at home.

Or perhaps you're not intelligent enough to. :tongue0011:





- A reduced scope for Latino history and culture. A proposal to expand such material in recognition of Texas’ rapidly growing Hispanic population was defeated in last week’s meetings—provoking one board member, Mary Helen Berlanga, to storm out in protest. "They can just pretend this is a white America and Hispanics don’t exist," she said of her conservative colleagues on the board. "They are rewriting history, not only of Texas but of the United States and the world."


- Language that qualifies the legacy of 1960s liberalism. Great Society programs such as Title IX—which provides for equal gender access to educational resources—and affirmative action, intended to remedy historic workplace discrimination against African-Americans, are said to have created adverse “unintended consequences” in the curriculum’s preferred language.

- A recommendation to include country and western music among the nation’s important cultural movements. The popular black genre of hip-hop is being dropped from the same list.



No, they're not trying to whitewash (pun intended) black an hispanic contributions to American culture, not at all...and the "unintended consequences" of affirmative action...black people got jobs, the horror! :rolleyes:

Though the hip-hop vs. Cousin-dating music is kind of ridiculous as neither are really that important in the realms of "important cultural movements", IMO - but if you look at the rise in black entrepreneurs and businesses tied to the hip-hop culture, sure beats the shit out of C&W...

[Blackflag]

Or perhaps you're not intelligent enough to. :tongue0011:

Yeah, because you're known for your objectivity. :umm:





No, they're not trying to whitewash (pun intended) black an hispanic contributions to American culture,

In your opinion, how much of the school day should be spent on "latino culture?"

Some people have opinions that Title IX has had unintended consequences. Is your opinion different?


I love that school focus on stupid shit like this when they can't successfully teach kids to read and write yet.

[Seshmeister]

This is the first thread I've started in this forum, as I make no claims to expertise with regard to American politics. I thought this was really interesting - it got me thinking about who has the power to decide what constitutes 'history' and how it is expressed in schools.

One example, I think it's changed now,but when I was at school there was no Scottish history taught, only post union British history.

I don't think that was accidental...

[LoungeMachine]

One example, I think it's changed now,but when I was at school there was no Scottish history taught, only post union British history.

I don't think that was accidental...

Or US History books that gloss over mass genocide of the indiginous people and land-theft and the slavery of an entire race......

:gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

Or US History books that gloss over mass genocide of the indiginous people and land-theft and the slavery of an entire race......

:gulp:

The mass genocide usually comes under the Chapter "How the West was Won." Stronger cultures have conquered weaker ones since the beginning of man. That's just how it is. Deal with it.

As for the slavery....blame the British and Dutch, it was started on their watch and ended under ours. Besides, find me a textbook that the issue of slavery isn't a major 19th Century issue.

[LoungeMachine]

The mass genocide usually comes under the Chapter "How the West was Won." Stronger cultures have conquered weaker ones since the beginning of man. That's just how it is. Deal with it.

.

:lmao:

Remember that when you're told to learn Chinese.....


deal with it?

Hope you and your family are wiped out in the name of "winning the west' sometime.

asshat

[BigBadBrian]

:lmao:

Remember that when you're told to learn Chinese.....


deal with it?

Hope you and your family are wiped out in the name of "winning the west' sometime.

asshat

You're just a whiney little douchebag cunt, aren't you? Why, yes you are!
You're a class act DoucheMachine.

:lmao:

[LoungeMachine]

You're just a whiney little douchebag cunt, aren't you? Why, yes you are!
You're a class act DoucheMachine.

:lmao:

And Brie has run out of debate yet again......

:gulp:

You lost your curveball, and any speed you ever had on the fastball man.

Time to hang up the cleats.

wow

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Thomas Jefferson no longer included among writers influencing the nation’s intellectual origins. Jefferson, a deist who helped pioneer the legal theory of the separation of church and state, is not a model founder in the board’s judgment.

I'm just absolutely stunned by this... Speechless....

[Blackflag]

I didn't realize 'I hope your family is killed' was debating.

Brilliant!

[FORD]

The mass genocide usually comes under the Chapter "How the West was Won." Stronger cultures have conquered weaker ones since the beginning of man. That's just how it is. Deal with it.

Weaker culture??

The White European culture has been on this continent for about 500 years and have totally shit all over it. I think the previous dominant cultures did a much better job taking care of the place. BTW, why don't you call up Custer down in Hell and ask him how "weak" their culture was?



As for the slavery....blame the British and Dutch, it was started on their watch and ended under ours. Besides, find me a textbook that the issue of slavery isn't a major 19th Century issue.

If it had ended without resulting in a "Civil War" that killed over 600,000 Americans, I doubt it would even be mentioned. Certainly not in the new TexASS textbooks.

[BigBadBrian]

And Brie has run out of debate yet again......

:gulp:

You lost your curveball, and any speed you ever had on the fastball man.

Time to hang up the cleats.

wow

I see I got under your skin again. Sucks to be you. :hee:

[jhale667]

I see I got under your skin again. Sucks to be you. :hee:

Keep telling yourself that...

Amazing. You continuously get your ass handed to you daily by pretty much everyone here, yet you still prattle on
"It's just a fleshwound!" :hee:

http://ripplingpond.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/monty_python_black_knight.jpg


Give it up.

[thome]

You guys crack me up.

I have been alive for 10 thousand years my time spans the concepts of reality and is eternal as the mountains and the sky.

Ask me anything you want to ....

I will tell you what you wanna hear, the History you need to hear, the only way -You- will understand it, what you want to hear.


Thye Oracle of thome is open.

[lesfunk]

We'd be in a lot better shape if schools taught Math, Language, and actual science instead of "Social" Studies, Muticulturalism, liberalism, conservatism and other brainwashing..
Who knows? We might even wind up with a society that can think for themselves as well as compete in the Global Market.

[LoungeMachine]

I didn't realize 'I hope your family is killed' was debating.

Brilliant!


According to Brie, it happens all the time, just deal with it.....


The mass genocide usually comes under the Chapter "How the West was Won." Stronger cultures have conquered weaker ones since the beginning of man. That's just how it is. Deal with it.

.

Or do we only care that it happens to someone else

:gulp:

How "Christian" of Brie, don't you think?

[binnie]

One example, I think it's changed now,but when I was at school there was no Scottish history taught, only post union British history.

I don't think that was accidental...

Not too sure if it has changed in English schools - most people have no idea about the union of 1707, even the undergraduates I teach. How the plantations and the Troubles aren't on the curriculum in British schools is beyond me aswell.

That being said, a lot of work has been done concerning the history of slavery in British schools over the last few years, so the 'selective' nature might be moving in the right direction.

[Blackflag]

According to Brie, it happens all the time, just deal with it.....



Or do we only care that it happens to someone else

:gulp:

How "Christian" of Brie, don't you think?

So let me get this straight... Somebody says something batshit crazy like that...and the best response you can think of is, "i hope your family dies too!!"

Well, shit...that's some crazy "debating" skills you have there, Lounge. You obviously missed your calling to be an attorney. Or a rocket scientist. Or something! :hee:

[LoungeMachine]

So let me get this straight... Somebody says something batshit crazy like that...and the best response you can think of is, "i hope your family dies too!!"

Well, shit...that's some crazy "debating" skills you have there, Lounge. You obviously missed your calling to be an attorney. Or a rocket scientist. Or something! :hee:

So now you think Brie's post was "bat-shit crazy" ?

And I like how you put my words in QUOTES, yet I didn't say that.

Here's my exact quote, Mr. Debater


:

deal with it?

Hope you and your family are wiped out in the name of "winning the west' sometime.

asshat

Context is everything, learn to argue the facts....

IF Brie claims that it is perfectly okay for entire cultures to be virtually wiped out because another culture comes along and thinks it's okay, then one must wonder how Brie would feel if HIS family was on the short end of the stick.

I'm against ANY population being wiped out by ANY other population, regardless of superior firepower, get it?

:gulp:

I doubt it.

[Blackflag]

Here's my exact quote, Mr. Debater

Oh, I see...you didn't say they should be killed. You said they should be "wiped out." Brilliant distinction! You proved me wrong there.




one must wonder how Brie would feel if HIS family was on the short end of the stick.

Genius argument, Lounge. GENIUS!!

Again, you clearly missed your calling... :hee:

[LoungeMachine]

Oh, I see...you didn't say they should be killed. You said they should be "wiped out." Again, you clearly missed your calling... :hee:

in the name of winning the west

:rolleyes:

I love how you must take words of context to make yourself feel less wrong.... :D

But hey, you already admitted Brie's comment was "bat-shit crazy"

:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

Again, you clearly missed your calling... :hee:

Not at all....

See, posting on a meesage board isn't "my calling"

But my career and my small company are.

:gulp:

I'm here for laughs, you're here to make yourself feel less of a failure.

:D

Well Done, Son!

[Blackflag]

But my career and my small company are.


Now you have a "small company?" Ha ha.

First you brag that you have websites, but are too ashamed to disclose what they are.

Then you said you took a job working somewhere, but are too ashamed to disclosed what this "career" is. :lmao:

Now you have a small company. Let me guess...you're too embarrassed to say what it is or what it does? :lmao:

Poseur.

[LoungeMachine]

:lmao:

Not ashamed at all, many friends on here know....

Not going to give out personal info for tweaking stalkers from Yakima to use.

Are you really stupid?


So now you're putting down those with a small business? Really?

I do well enough to post on my own time.

You're either unemployed, or constantly posting here on your employer's dime.

which is it?

:gulp:

[ZahZoo]

California wasn't trying to marginalize specific ethnic groups.

California is a marginalized specific ethnic group all on it's own...

[Blackflag]

So now you're putting down those with a small business? Really?


No, just you... :gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

Now you have a small company. Let me guess...you're too embarrassed to say what it is or what it does? :lmao:

Poseur.

We are a booking agency that works with music venues throughout the Northwest.

We also put on some pretty cool annual events in the summer.

We work with some major beer and spirits distributors as sponsors on small tours with up and coming bands.

Glamorous? Not really.

Fun? yes. Profitable? yes.

:gulp:

After playing for years, it's a nice way to stay in the industry and get to work for myself. Meet alot of great people. Many you wish you could meet, I bet.

[LoungeMachine]

No, just you... :gulp:

Imagine my hurt. :D

[Blackflag]

We are a booking agency that works with music venues throughout the Northwest.

We also put on some pretty cool annual events in the summer.

We work with some major beer and spirits distributors as sponsors on small tours with up and coming bands.



See, was that so hard? There was nothing to be embarrassed about.

[LoungeMachine]

See, was that so hard? There was nothing to be embarrassed about.

Never said I was...

Embarrassed? Nope.

Worried about freaks on the internets who troll for personal info?

yep.

:gulp:

[Blackflag]

Dude, look in the mirror when you ping my IP address a few more times. Cock.

[LoungeMachine]

Cock.

Again with the cock obsession.....

:gulp:

IP Addys have no personal info,

Want mine?

So tell us what you do for a living. [without giving personal details]

[jhale667]

So tell us what you do for a living. [without giving personal details]


Something he's so crappy at, he has to ask for occasional timeouts so he can "focus". :lmao:

[Blackflag]

I repair leaks in circus tents.

[Blackflag]

I also became a "crazy ass mofo" today. :)

[LoungeMachine]

The problem with your movie reviews is we pay by the word....

:gulp:

[Blackflag]

If I could, I'd make you pay by the character.

[BigBadBrian]

Brie claims that it is perfectly okay for entire cultures to be virtually wiped out because another culture comes along and thinks it's okay, then one must wonder how Brie would feel if HIS family was on the short end of the stick.



I never said it was "perfectly okay" for this to happen. My bad...I understand how you thought that with my "deal with it" sentence. We must deal with it, though...those are the indisputable facts from our history.

Such behavior is unfortunately the nature of men and nations and still is even to this day. I don't know what history courses you took, but what happened in the West was certainly not glossed over in my educational experience, and neither was slavery nor the internment of Japanese-American citizens during WWII.

BTW, I'll also go on record saying I disagree with the Thomas Jefferson part of this article...if it's true. I don't think this TJ exclusion issue will make the final cut, though. How could an American History book not include TJ? Such a book would be fatally flawed.

[bueno bob]

I read quite a bit more about this. Jay's absolutely spot-on when he calls it revisionist history...well, mostly spot-on, anyway; it's technically closer to Republican/Christian indoctrination when you get right down to it. It's not really so much colored education, it's more like brainwashing to a particular party idealism done in a classroom setting - in essence, they're setting the stage to advance the religious religion/moral majority/bible thumping doom 'n' gloomers at an early age, so as to cut off their individuality and thus dam up children's ability to think about anything outside of what their institutionalized educational process tells them is "right".

Frankly, it's disgusting and I certainly hope a very large legal challenge is being put into place against this. Essentially, it amounts to child abuse.

[binnie]

Tell us what you really think, Bob :D

Child abuse is overstating the case, I feel, but it certainly seems a conscious pruning of the past - I would love to know who is on the panel that makes these decisions. I would be very surprised if any of them were historians.

On a tangent, what really struck me reading about this was how different the 'American' history you learn could be depending on what state you lived in.

[bueno bob]

Tell us what you really think, Bob :D

Child abuse is overstating the case, I feel, but it certainly seems a conscious pruning of the past - I would love to know who is on the panel that makes these decisions. I would be very surprised if any of them were historians.

On a tangent, what really struck me reading about this was how different the 'American' history you learn could be depending on what state you lived in.

Personally, I don't think child abuse is overstating it at all. When you get right down to it, it's brainwashing because it's a systematic, methodical elimination of anything that doesn't fit into the religious right/uber-conservative Republican frame of mind. Again, this is not education, it's political indoctrination.

And Republicans cry about Obama's back to school speech? Give me a break. How stupid are we going to continue to act?

Luckily enough, I was exposed to an educational environment which presented ALL sides of an argument, EVERY angle of thought, EVERY opinion on subjects and was encouraged to make up my mind. I wasn't shielded from the fact that everybody doesn't fit into nice, little conservative molds. And as such, based on both my public and private education, and my religious background, I was able to decide on my own path in life, I was able to decide what I WANTED TO THINK FOR MYSELF. My life has been infinitely richer for it.

If this garbage goes through and becomes a reality, countless amounts of children are going to be denied that same opportunity, which constitutes nothing less than the freedom to think for themselves.

As long as conservatives are going to rail on and on about freedom to the point of nausea, shouldn't they at least endorse that same freedom in the classroom?

Apparently not.

And it's because of that that yes, I would in fact classify the mental sterilization of children for the purposes of getting them on the "right" political bandwagon as child abuse. Through and through I'd call it child abuse.

If any other specific branch attempted it, I'd call it the same. But I do find it an interesting point that uber-religious conservatives seem to be the only ones who directly want to stiffle the prospects of somebody saying "Well, maybe I don't necessarily buy into this...", in both church and governmental settings.

[binnie]

You may be right, Bob, but I'd like to think that any half-decent history teacher would find a way of presenting more than one side of the story. Not saying that the revisionism is harmless by any stretch of the imagination, just that there are always ways around the system.

It is frightening that a small number of people have this much power, however.

[bueno bob]

You may be right, Bob, but I'd like to think that any half-decent history teacher would find a way of presenting more than one side of the story. Not saying that the revisionism is harmless by any stretch of the imagination, just that there are always ways around the system.

It is frightening that a small number of people have this much power, however.

Realistically, that's my biggest concern. History is written by the survivors, and survivors always have their own bend on the way certain events went down. For example, go talk to any first grader today and ask them what they know of George Washington - I will personally guarantee you that their answers will end at "He found America", or maybe "He found the Americas" for those brighter ones with a little more on the ball.

I guarantee you none of them will answer "He found this nice little stretch of islands, determined from no evidence that there were hordes of gold, decided that it was his by God's right, and systematically slaughtered the natives who once swam out into the ocean to greet them on site. He also wrote a nice letter back home stating that a force of 50 men would be able to conquer the entire island and rid it of it's infestation for God's glory, men were there to be slaughtered where they stood by sword when the whim struck him and his men, women were to raped repeatedly and little else, and within fifty years the land was nearly worthless and the natives who welcomed them with open arms were at that point completely extinct after they spent the last few fading years hiding in caves to no avail, knowing full well they'd be hunted down".

Of course, the survivors of all that (to greater extent, rather than lesser - although of the lesser, they certainly have their own accounts) wrote what they felt was an appropriate version of the actual events.

Revisionism is, of course, one thing...there is something to be said for not necessarily exposing first graders to this type of horror and atrocity, at least until an age where they have the capacity to handle reality, but this is NOT what we're talking about here. What we're talking about here is basic religious/conservative indoctrination, putting a LOT of power into the hands of a select few over a TON of minds, and that on it's own is concerning to say the least.

[binnie]

The problem is that there is a huge difference between 'history' written by university and professional historians and the 'history' banded about in public, on TV in the media more generally, and by school systems, its seems.

Knowledge doesn't seem to spread too far from the ivory tower.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Realistically, that's my biggest concern. History is written by the survivors, and survivors always have their own bend on the way certain events went down. For example, go talk to any first grader today and ask them what they know of George Washington - I will personally guarantee you that their answers will end at "He found America", or maybe "He found the Americas" for those brighter ones with a little more on the ball.

I guarantee you none of them will answer "He found this nice little stretch of islands, determined from no evidence that there were hordes of gold, decided that it was his by God's right, and systematically slaughtered the natives who once swam out into the ocean to greet them on site. He also wrote a nice letter back home stating that a force of 50 men would be able to conquer the entire island and rid it of it's infestation for God's glory, men were there to be slaughtered where they stood by sword when the whim struck him and his men, women were to raped repeatedly and little else, and within fifty years the land was nearly worthless and the natives who welcomed them with open arms were at that point completely extinct after they spent the last few fading years hiding in caves to no avail, knowing full well they'd be hunted down".



silly shits don't even know they are talkin' about columbus.:biggrin:

[bueno bob]

silly shits don't even know they are talkin' about columbus.:biggrin:

Oh shit...you got me there, lmao!

Brain's on autopilot...

:D

[PETE'S BROTHER]

5 stars please......;)

[jhale667]

I like the new term leveled at the revisionists: "The Texas Taliban". :D Fits!

[bueno bob]

I like the new term leveled at the revisionists: "The Texas Taliban". :D Fits!

Honestly, when you get right down to it, it's not far removed. I always like to suggest a trip to the middle east for people who believe education, the government, public service and daily life should all have an enforced basis on any religion in it, personally; there they can see exactly what happens when religion (any religion) runs ramshot over the populace at large with a few singular powers in control of it.

Funny how few of them really want to take me up on that offer.

[jhale667]

Honestly, when you get right down to it, it's not far removed. I always like to suggest a trip to the middle east for people who believe education, the government, public service and daily life should all have an enforced basis on any religion in it, personally; there they can see exactly what happens when religion (any religion) runs ramshot over the populace at large with a few singular powers in control of it.

Funny how few of them really want to take me up on that offer.


Agree, but it's not EVEN removed, if you think about it - they're doing the same thing. Or at least attempting to.
That's the problem with organized religion though - each one thinks they're the correct one, it's all the others who've gotten it wrong - how could they possibly do wrong, they're doing "(insert your own) god's work"...:umm: