Popular Teacher Fatally Shot After Entering Wrong House

[Nickdfresh]

It's kind of a big local issue here where apparently a popular Albany, NY area teacher was in town with his wife to celebrate the birth of their friends' child. He mistakenly entered the wrong house and the homeowner immediately opened fire killing him. The man was a 31-year old award winning teacher and it appears to be a big tragedy. Some say the homeowner is a psychopath that should have given "fair warning" before blasting this poor guy--and should be charged with at least manslaughter as there was no direct threat to him or his family.

Others say "too-bad," and that you're taking your life into your own hands when you startle armed people in their own homes. Not sure what I think personally, but I believe that someone at least deserves a shout of "get the fuck down or I'll fucking shoot you!" before you blast them. Related story below:

-NDF

Police believe door was unlocked at site of teacher's death
Homeowner's lawyer says Park entered rear, walked into kitchen, 2 rooms before slaying
By Dan Herbeck
Buffalo News Staff Reporter (http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/04/01/1005460/police-believe-door-was-unlocked.html)
Updated: April 01, 2010, 12:10 am /
Published: April 01, 2010, 6:55 am

http://www.timesunion.com/Shared/Graphics/NewsDB/0330_teachershot_55_TN.jpg_299_TN.jpg
David Park was shot after mistakenly entering the wrong house during a party

Investigators believe David W. Park walked through an unlocked rear door when he entered an Amherst home where the resident shot and killed him, sources close to the case told The Buffalo News.

The rear door led from a raised deck into the home on Millbrook Court where Park was shot as an intruder early Sunday.

Police who responded to the home soon after the shooting found no indication of a forced entry.

Park was not shot immediately after entering the home, said Thomas H. Burton, attorney for David D'Amico, the homeowner who shot Park.

"The rear door where he entered was on the other side of the house from the location where he was shot," Burton said. "[Park] walked through the kitchen and two other rooms before ending up at the location where he was shot."

Police believe Park entered the D'Amico's backyard by opening a gate, which he closed behind him, sources said. He then went up onto the deck and stepped inside the home.

The question of whether the door was locked had been a tightly guarded secret until Wednesday, when three sources familiar with the case confirmed for The News that it had been left unlocked.

D'Amico routinely locked all of his doors at night and has told Amherst police that he was unaware that his rear door had been left unlocked that night, the sources said.

Amherst police and the Erie County district attorney's office are investigating the death of Park, 31, an award-winning Albany school teacher who was in town to attend a party at a home next door to D'Amico's.

So far, no charges have been filed against D'Amico. His attorney hopes no charges ever will be filed.

"Whether a door was locked or not is not an issue under the law," Burton said. "An unlocked door does not give someone a defense to commit a burglary. The narrow focus of the law is on what was in the mind of the man who fired the shot.

"No matter how [Park] got in, I can tell you this much for certain — he was not invited in. He was an intruder."

A memorial service for Park will be held today in his hometown of Old Forge. A second memorial service will be held on Friday in Albany, where he was a beloved elementary school teacher.

Assistant Police Chief Timothy M. Green, spokesman for the Amherst police, declined to confirm or deny The News's information on the unlocked door.

"As we've said since this happened, this was a tragedy," Green said. "I don't know why [Park] was in that house, but he should not have been. We haven't found any evidence indicating that he was legally in the house."

D'Amico fired his hunting shotgun because Park did not comply with his demand that he leave the house and because he feared that Park was about to walk upstairs to where the D'Amicos had been sleeping, Burton said.

Park is believed to have gone into D'Amico's house by mistake after leaving the party next door. "The reason why he went into [D'Amico's] house is a mystery we may never know the answer to," Green said.

The Erie County medical examiner's office is conducting toxicology tests to determine if Park was intoxicated at the time.

Both D'Amico and his wife, Julie, have been "emotionally devastated" by what happened, according to Burton.

"There are winners and losers in life," Green said. "But any way you look at this case, the outcome is bad for everyone involved."

dherbeck@buffnews.com

[Nickdfresh]

I might add that Amherst, NY has one of the lowest national crime rates of any metro/suburban area of the United States...

[binnie]

Well, I don't suppose we'll ever know if any words or warnings were exhanged before shots were fired will we?

But it seems very suspicious to me thatt shooting would be someone's first reation - I mean, I'm guessing that this guy doesn't sit in the house with his gun or guns beside him. The teacher didn't just pop into his eyesight and then 'bang, bang'. He must have heard the 'intruder' and gone to fetch his gun, before shooting him. That to me is almost premeditation - 'I'm not going to find out why he's here, I'm just going to kill him.' But, like I said, I guess we'll never know the details.

[Steve Savicki]

Rest in peace. :(

[ELVIS]

Option #4

Intruding is a threat...

[binnie]

So you don't think that it's a tragedy that this guy mistakenly entered a house believing it to be his friends and is now dead?

[ELVIS]

Sure I do...

[binnie]

But the shooter was perfectly within his rights to fire first and ask questions later?

[ELVIS]

Hw was perfectly within his rights to defend himself and his family...

We don't know what was or what was not said...


:elvis:

[binnie]

I agree - as I said above, we'll never know what happened or not.

But it seems odd to me that you can shoot and kill someone if you THINK that they might be a threat, rather than them actually posing a threat. It seems a little illogical to me. Say I'm walking down the street and some guy gives me a strange look - he might be about to attack me, so I better kick his head in first, right?

It just seems a very odd scenario to me - surely pointing a gun at someone would be enough to get them off your property, rather than atually having to resort to shooting them.

[LoungeMachine]

This same thing happened last year to someone I knew

Music & nightlife | Seattle sound engineer fatally shot as he tried to enter wrong motel room | Seattle Times Newspaper (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/musicnightlife/2009501190_twisp20m.html)

And the guy jumped bail instead of facing a jury, the fucking pussy.

Big tough gun nut, huh?

Accused in Twisp killing, suspect on the run, manhunt underway (http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m9d17-Accused-Twisp-killer-on-the-run-manhunt-underway)

[binnie]

Jesus, that's just horrific......

[LoungeMachine]

Hw was perfectly within his rights to defend himself and his family...

We don't know what was or what was not said...


:elvis:

"Defend" doesnt mean shoot to kill.

:gulp:

[Anonymous]

Well regarding the teacher, we really do not know what happened. Sure, it's easy & it suits well with everybody else to always defend the victim, but we do not know what happened.

I'm not defending the shooter either. In fact, I believe that anyone that takes sides in this is incredibly stupid and/or retard. Because all you have is what you can envision in your own mind, so you're effectively judging someone based n your own hallucinations.

The case that Lounge brought to the table is a bit different...

1) It's much, MUCH easier to enter a wrong motel room than a wrong house.

2) Who the hell leaves his door unlocked while staying at a motel/hotel/whatever?

3) At any given time, staff with keys may & will enter your room, if it's the place's policy to clean at certain hours of the day, or whatever the fuck.

4) It's not exactly your fucking property you're defending.

5) SHUT THE FUCK UP, SUCKADICKI!

6) We still don't know what happened, but I believe the above points to be highly valid.

Cheers! :bottle:

[BigBadBrian]

Hw was perfectly within his rights to defend himself and his family...



Wrong.

Deadly force is only justified when one's life is threatened.

Simple breaking and entering is not grounds for use of deadly force, except if this teacher came after the homeowner with a knife, gun, or other weapon...which I doubt happened.

Just the fact that this teacher was in his house is not grounds to blast him.

At least that's what we were taught.

Charge the homeowner with manslaughter at the minimum.



.

[Guitar Shark]

All right, who hacked Brian's account this time?

[ELVIS]

A stranger in my house, especially when I and/or my family are sleeping is a very real potential threat on our lives...

[BigBadBrian]

A stranger in my house, especially when I and/or my family are sleeping is a very real potential threat on our lives...

Go ahead and shoot then.

Your family needs to be prepared to do without you for a number of years though. You're going to the pokey if he didn't directly threaten anyone. If he was just stealing....game over...for you.

[ELVIS]

So, I protected my family...

[BigBadBrian]

So, I protected my family...

How? Is the intruder assaulting anyone? If so, yes.

If not, you can't shoot.

[LoungeMachine]

A stranger in my house, especially when I and/or my family are sleeping is a very real potential threat on our lives...

Exactly.

potential

When it becomes a real threat, then you're justified.

[Nickdfresh]

A stranger in my house, especially when I and/or my family are sleeping is a very real potential threat on our lives...

"Potential?" Well, if a guy looks at me funny walking down the street in front of my digs, he might be a "potential threat" too...

In any case, even to most of the worst case scenarios, very few intruders/burglars want to deal with a homeowner and will run if confronted or even if THEY hear something...

[kwame k]

Lounge's post about the guy in the motel, he needs to be charged with manslaughter, period.

The teacher's case is definitely one where the homeowner acted or reacted carelessly. Yes, if someone is in your house at night, uninvited there is cause for alarm but at the very least the homeowner should of warned the intruder first. Without knowing the whole story I can't imagine the teacher walking into the guy's bedroom or that the guy didn't have enough time to realize that someone was in his house and get his gun. So he had ample time to warn him while still making sure he was safe. He could of hid around a corner and pointed just the gun at the teacher and warned him at a minimum.

It's not a Carte Blanche to kill someone just because they trespass on your property. When owing a deadly weapon there comes a huge responsibility for ownership.

In both cases here the gun owners were in the wrong.

[Anonymous]

I like how everyone keeps hallucinating & judges either the victim or the shooter based on that.

Cheers! :bottle:

[ELVIS]

So he had ample time to warn him while still making sure he was safe. He could of hid around a corner and pointed just the gun at the teacher and warned him at a minimum.



LMAO!


:hee:

[kwame k]

Just blast away, E?

Using deadly force without any responsibility.........:umm:

[ELVIS]

I wouldn't just "blast away" but i'm willing to bet no teachers will be wondering into this mans house anymore...


:elvis:

[FORD]

A few years ago, I was standing in my kitchen cooking dinner, half naked (it was the middle of the summer) when this kid just walks in my back door. No knock, or anything just opens the door and walked in.

He looked more shocked to see me than I was to see him. Turned out he was the brother of the guy who lived next door, so just a mistake, no criminal intent.

The kid actually said "Damn, if I would have done this back home, I probably would have gotten shot!" At the time, I thought he was exaggerating, but it seems like a more common problem than I would have thought.

Had he actually been an intruder with the intent to commit a crime, I already had a sharp knife in my hand, so a gun wouldn't have been necessary anyway. :biggrin:

[kwame k]

I wouldn't just "blast away" but i'm willing to bet no teachers will be wondering into this mans house anymore...


:elvis:



That'll be a comfort to Park's family.

[ELVIS]

My skeptical mind wonders if the 31 year old "award winning teacher" (as if that makes a difference) was there to have sex with the man's daughter and was cut off at the pass, so to speak...


:elvis:

[FORD]

My skeptical mind wonders if the 31 year old "award winning teacher" (as if that makes a difference) was there to have sex with the man's daughter and was cut off at the pass, so to speak...


:elvis:

Is your skeptical mind back on Oxycontin? :confused:

If Park broke into the house to rape the man's daughter, then the shooter would have said so, because THAT would have provided a valid reason to shoot him.

[ELVIS]

Would it? and did I say rape ??

[Anonymous]

I also like how Elvis hallucination is the one that makes most sense.

At least, there's a motive, so to speak.

Cheers! :bottle:

[Rikk]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm not sure the guy should be charged. The bottom line is, if I saw someone other than someone I know in our home, I would probably immediately treat it as a threat. Now mind you, I live in Chicago. But seriously...I can't say the guy had criminal intent in shooting him. It wasn't like, "Oh, you're in my home? Now I have a chance to shoot you and get away with it!" I'm sure he felt threatened, and probably the majority of times someone enters someone else's home without permission or knocking on the door, it's not innocent.

I do think it's tragic. But if you saw some stranger walking through your house, how would you feel?

Mind you, maybe shooting without asking any questions is the problem. Maybe that's where the "gun nut" mentality kicked in. Me? I would have aimed the gun at El Strango and said, "What the fuck are you doing here?" And he probably would have said, "Shit! I must have the wrong house!" And I would have had El Strango put his hands against the wall while aiming the gun at him and then...called the police. Shooting without asking questions only really makes sense if the person is running at you, etc.

Shit...I've changed my mind in one post! Why just shoot without asking or saying anything? What if it were a cop with a warrant? It could have been anything.

[kwame k]

A couple of things bother me about this story. First, who in the hell wouldn't comply when someone has a shotgun pointed at you......

D'Amico fired his hunting shotgun because Park did not comply with his demand that he leave the house and because he feared that Park was about to walk upstairs to where the D'Amicos had been sleeping, Burton said.

Second thing is......if Park was in the wrong house and there was a party going on in the "right" house, wouldn't he find it weird that no lights were on and nobody was up.

[FORD]

Would it? and did I say rape ??

If it was consensual sex, then that would make the shooting a murder. Of course this whole scenario is pointless speculation, since nothing in the above article says the homeowner had any children. Only the man and his wife are mentioned as being in the house at the time.

[Anonymous]

A couple of things bother me about this story. First, who in the hell wouldn't comply when someone has a shotgun pointed at you......

Second thing is......if Park was in the wrong house and there was a party going on in the "right" house, wouldn't he find it weird that no lights were on and nobody was up.

That's why I keep saying that commenting about this is one thing, but judging one or the other is painfully retarded.

Remember - EVERYTHING that is going through your mind & every conclusion you arrive to are simply hallucinations.

SOMETHING happened.

Cheers! :bottle:

[ELVIS]

But if you saw some stranger walking through your house, how would you feel?



Afraid and like shooting first and asking questions later...

Not that that's how I would react, but I would be tempted to do just that...


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

If it was consensual sex, then that would make the shooting a murder. Of course this whole scenario is pointless speculation, since nothing in the above article says the homeowner had any children. Only the man and his wife are mentioned as being in the house at the time.

Ok, his wife...:biggrin:

[ELVIS]

But it does say they were sleeping...

[LoungeMachine]

LMAO!


:hee:

Really?

Funny to you?

[Igosplut]

Wrong.

Deadly force is only justified when one's life is threatened.

Wrong. It vary's state to state. Some give you the right to defend "Property" as well as life and limb (in your home). Others (like MA) give you no legal rights to defend anything including your life in your own home no matter how threatening the situation.


Simple breaking and entering is not grounds for use of deadly force, except if this teacher came after the homeowner with a knife, gun, or other weapon...which I doubt happened.

Again, it is in certain states. Without two sides to the story, it's all conjecture. The article paints it as "A beloved elementary school teacher having too much too drink wandering into the wrong house and being immediately shot by the home owner".

It could just as easily said: "A Highly intoxicated man unknown to the homeowner barges into the home, ignoring multiple demands from the owner to stop, rambling incoherently, then looked to be headed for the upstairs bedroom where his wife was sleeping."

It's all in the wording... Some of you should know that very well. And I'm not defending either person here. Just trying to see both sides of a bad situation.


Just the fact that this teacher was in his house is not grounds to blast him.

At least that's what we were taught.

Charge the homeowner with manslaughter at the minimum.

I would say he didn't know the guy was a harmless teacher, any more than the teacher knew he was in the wrong house.

Even after the fact it's not so easy to know what exactly SHOULD have transpired. It was possibly put in the best way by the Assistant Police Chief Timothy M. Green:

"There are winners and losers in life," Green said. "But any way you look at this case, the outcome is bad for everyone involved."

[jhale667]

Doesn't anyone shoot to wound these days?? WTF?

[Cathedral]

First of all, I don't enter anyone's home without them answering the door and letting me in, especially if the lights are off.

Secondly, you have to consider that maybe these people have been victimized in their own home in the past. It's great that this guy was a teacher, but I wonder how smart he was to just enter the home.

It is plausible to assume that if there are only two occupants in a home, and both are in bed, that someone entering at night would be considered a threat. Ya see, it isn't so much looking at the situation and saying, "he was just in the wrong house and there was no threat", put yourself in the shoes of the shooter...To him, the intruder was a threat.

Personally, I would have yelled, "Who the fuck is there?", and if I got no answer, I'd be ready to shoot, shame on you for staying quiet.
Also, If I'm going to shoot at you, you had better believe I will be shooting to kill, and i'll tell ya why.

I've been friends with law enforcement officers for many years and they have all agreed that IF you EVER shoot someone in YOUR home you had better shoot to kill. the reason being is that if there is only one story to tell then your chances of NOT being charged with a crime are much better.
If a criminal enters your house and robs you, or assaults you, or your wife, and you shoot him and only wound him, he can file charges against YOU...and WIN in criminal AND civil court, judgements against you.

It happens every fucking day in America and the truth is, dead people can't speak.

The teacher in this instance, well, he made a fatal mistake because there is no way to determine whether the homeowner felt threatened or not, or to what extent.
He (the teacher) should have assessed the situation better before entering and knocked on the door, TO BE SAFE!!!

I voted the first option based on my perception of the situation should it happen to me.
If I feel my family is in danger I will act differently than if it were just myself because the responsibility to protect them increases the adrenaline rush. I may not react as i normally would as a result, but by no intentional fault of my own.

Questions I'd like answered before drawing a conclusion here are:
Did the shooter feel any remorse after knowing it was just a mistake?
Have these homeowners ever been victimized in their home in the past?

Typically, when something like this happens it is usually family shooting family because someone isn't where they were expected to be in the home and percieved as an intruder.

It's sad, my condolences to the teachers family, but he should have been more careful and knocked on the door before entering, especially at night.

[Anonymous]

Well put, cat.

Very well put.

Cheers! :bottle:

[ELVIS]

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:elvis:

[MAX]

"Defend" doesnt mean shoot to kill.

:gulp:

It does if someone enters my house and endangers my family. Whether it's intended or not, it's my property, my family and I'll do whatever it takes to defend it, no matter the cost. :elvis:

[Blackflag]

Everybody pulls out their violins when somebody gets shot accidentally, but there's not enough information to say whether it was proper or not. And without enough information, I think you have to hedge on the side of the guy who had somebody standing in his house in the middle of the night.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

.

Questions I'd like answered before drawing a conclusion here are:
Did the shooter feel any remorse after knowing it was just a mistake?
Have these homeowners ever been victimized in their home in the past?



it does say in the article that that homeowners were "devastated".

[Cathedral]

Well put, cat.

Very well put.

Cheers! :bottle:

Thanks!!!

Years ago, our guitarist's grandparents were assaulted by intruders in their own home. she was raped (she was 74 at the time), and her husband was forced to watch. They were then tied up in the basement, robbed, and left there to free themselves.

They were just sitting in their tv room watching television when these two guys came in on them and all of this ensued.

I will tell you that anyone "mistakenly" entering their house in the dark after that event would have been shot immediately without a word being said.

Ya just never know how people are going to react, this guy died because he made a mistake. Blaming anyone but him is a stretch for me from what I know of the story.

[Sensible Shoes]

Shoes knows enough about this community to be extremelly dangerous when it comes to the conjecture department. I will only tell you that the Amherst PD REALLY has a problem with anybody screwing their image of the safest city in America. Thus incidents like this are usually hushed up as best they can be. If there is someway to make this look completely accidental, they will find it. It's an affluent and strange place.

[Blackflag]

Years ago, ...

That's fucked up. Shit like that is why if somebody unfortunately ends up in my house at night, they're going to have a bad day. :(

[binnie]

This has just sprung into my mind - how the fuck did the teacher get it?

If all windows and doors were locked, how do you just wander into someone's house? Secondly, if you really, really fear intruders, then you're going to keep doors locked on your property at all times, right? That way, you wouldn't need to shoot intruders because there wouldn't be any intruders.

[Blackflag]

This has just sprung into my mind - how the fuck did the teacher get it?

If all windows and doors were locked, how do you just wander into someone's house? Secondly, if you really, really fear intruders, then you're going to keep doors locked on your property at all times, right? That way, you wouldn't need to shoot intruders because there wouldn't be any intruders.

:confused13:

[binnie]

Not sure what you're getting at BF.

When you go to bed at night, do you not check that all of the windows and doors are locked?

[PETE'S BROTHER]

This has just sprung into my mind - how the fuck did the teacher get it?

If all windows and doors were locked, how do you just wander into someone's house? Secondly, if you really, really fear intruders, then you're going to keep doors locked on your property at all times, right? That way, you wouldn't need to shoot intruders because there wouldn't be any intruders.

you drinkin', binnie?:)

[PETE'S BROTHER]

reread the article maybe. the door was unlocked. intruders probably don't have an issue with breaking a window to get in, even if it is locked. just sayin'.:baaa:

[binnie]

A little :D

[binnie]

Maybe I've misread the article, but you can't 'wander' into a locked house..........

[PETE'S BROTHER]

A little :D

good:biggrin:

[binnie]

OK, I've just seen the 'Police believe the door was unlocked' part - I apologize for being a dumbass (I feel that I should groan myself) :D

I still don't get it though - isn't locking the door something everyone does? Doesn't strike me as a family living in fear.

[binnie]

reread the article maybe. the door was unlocked. intruders probably don't have an issue with breaking a window to get in, even if it is locked. just sayin'.:baaa:

Agreed. If someone breaks and enters, then I think it is safe to assume that they pose a threat.

That being said, I'll never condone shooting to kill because it's just not part of our culture.

[Blackflag]

Not sure what you're getting at BF.

When you go to bed at night, do you not check that all of the windows and doors are locked?

Usually, but I'm not obsessive about it. I have a doorwall in the back, so if somebody wants in, they just have to pick up a rock.

I mean, you're not seriously saying that the best defense against intruders is to lock your door? They're intruders. As in - intrude past your locked door.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

don't you dare ever self-groan! savicki does that shit.:barf:

[binnie]

I mean, you're not seriously saying that the best defense against intruders is to lock your door? They're intruders. As in - intrude past your locked door.

I think that we have established by this point that I am being a dumbass today :D

What I am saying is, if you lock all of your doors and windows then someone has to break-in to enter. If someone breaks-in, I think it is safe to assume that they pose a threat to you and your property. Then it is permissable to use force against them, IMO.

[Blackflag]

That being said, I'll never condone shooting to kill because it's just not part of our culture.

The cops shoot to kill, where ever you live. So it is part of the "culture." Shooting is deadly force.

Unless you live in a Chuck Norris movie, and you're winging people in the shoulder. But if you're that fucking awesome, you should just karate chop them into submission. :hee:

[Blackflag]

I think that we have established by this point that I am being a dumbass today :D

What I am saying is, if you lock all of your doors and windows then someone has to break-in to enter. If someone breaks-in, I think it is safe to assume that they pose a threat to you and your property. Then it is permissable to use force against them, IMO.

Fair enough. But without any further information, as above, I think you're just startled by a dude standing in your house, and you don't know if he broke in, walked in, or what the fuck.

[binnie]

The cops shoot to kill, where ever you live. So it is part of the "culture." Shooting is deadly force.

Unless you live in a Chuck Norris movie, and you're winging people in the shoulder. But if you're that fucking awesome, you should just karate chop them into submission. :hee:

In the UK, the average police officer does not carry a firearm, and thus do not shoot to kill.

Armed police are only called in exceptional circumstances - i.e. if a criminal is armed. Even then, they will most likely use rubber bullets if possible. Shooting to kill is a last resort here.

[Sensible Shoes]

The article also says the guy DID warn him. I don't know where the "just shot him" part came from - I mean why would the shooter say that - and who the hell was there to prove otherwise?

[Blackflag]

In the UK, the average police officer does not carry a firearm, and thus do not shoot to kill.

Armed police are only called in exceptional circumstances - i.e. if a criminal is armed. Even then, they will most likely use rubber bullets if possible. Shooting to kill is a last resort here.

Understood. But when it is time for them to resort to deadly force, they shoot to kill.

That's the test - whether deadly force is appropriate in the circumstances. Whether the guy actually dies is irrelevant. There's not a circumstance where they would say - shooting is justified in the circumstance, but only non-deadly shooting.

[Sensible Shoes]

BTW - this was also the same town where a sniper took down an abortion doctor in his kitchen.

[MAX]

don't you dare ever self-groan! savicki does that shit.:barf:

every, single morning and in his mirror, right?

[Anonymous]

Ya know, even when I visit my good friends DURING THE DAYTIME, people I can trust & are always welcome at my place as I am at theirs, I NEVER, EVER enter their place without knocking.

EVEN if I called saying "hey, I'll be dropping in in a while".

I KNOCK. They open, I get in.

And vice versa.

Cheers! :bottle:

[Blackflag]

Ya know, even when I visit my good friends DURING THE DAYTIME, people I can trust & are always welcome at my place as I am at theirs, I NEVER, EVER enter their place without knocking.

EVEN if I called saying "hey, I'll be dropping in in a while".

I KNOCK. They open, I get in.

And vice versa.

Cheers! :bottle:

Then how come your mom doesn't knock when she visits my place?

[Anonymous]

Then how come your mom doesn't knock when she visits my place?

My mom is a woman. You don't like women, remember? You've admitted it.

Besides, everyone knows you're just trolling for the cock. There's a hunger you can never sate... and that's your HUNGER FOR THE COCK!!!

BlackFag... HE TROLLS THE INTERNETS, DESPERATE FOR COCK!!!

Bitch. :wow2:

[knuckleboner]

A stranger in my house, especially when I and/or my family are sleeping is a very real potential threat on our lives...

and what if the person was an EMT, mistakeningly given the wrong address to a heart attack victim?

still ok to shoot first, no matter what?

[Guitar Shark]

Or what about a nurse emptying your bedpan?

[kwame k]

Or what about a nurse emptying your bedpan?

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out?

[thome]

Two reasons for a Drunk Teacher to wander over to your house and need to get his ass blown off.


1. Shooter had told -Infatuated Teacher- 65 times, to lay off my beautiful wife. She is a flirt and she is mine.

2. Shooter had told -Gay Teacher- 65 times to lay off my beautiful ass. I do not want to be converted, don't confuse my friendliness with you any other way.

3. Ok ...one for the detectives here, (you CSI watching tools) . Drunk Teacher mistook -TALKING- about a three way as more than just idle conversation.

[thome]

Ya know, even when I visit my good friends DURING THE DAYTIME, people I can trust & are always welcome at my place as I am at theirs, I NEVER, EVER enter their place without knocking.

EVEN if I called saying "hey, I'll be dropping in in a while".

I KNOCK. They open, I get in.

And vice versa.

Cheers! :bottle:

and even if I am expected and they don't answer the door I will walk around the outside of the house and knock on the back door and if they don't answer I would hesitate to walk in, if so, even my best friend.. I wouldn't persue it any further than yelling in the house...and then I would split...

[Blackflag]

Two reasons for a Drunk Teacher to wander over to your house and need to get his ass blown off.


1. Shooter had told -Infatuated Teacher- 65 times, to lay off my beautiful wife. She is a flirt and she is mine.

2. Shooter had told -Gay Teacher- 65 times to lay off my beautiful ass. I do not want to be converted, don't confuse my friendliness with you any other way.

3. Ok ...one for the detectives here, (you CSI watching tools) . Drunk Teacher mistook -TALKING- about a three way as more than just idle conversation.

See, this is why I'm not willing to write this guy off. Every once in a while, he comes up with a winner.

[Igosplut]

and what if the person was an EMT, mistakeningly given the wrong address to a heart attack victim?

still ok to shoot first, no matter what?


Absolutely not. But are you comparing this (as an alleged B&E ) intruder, to an EMS worker identifying him/her self whenever they go into a residence (and as an FYI EMS workers will not enter a residence without a police clearance)

Very different circumstances....

[Blackflag]

Absolutely not. But are you comparing this (as an alleged B&E ) intruder, to an EMS worker identifying him/her self whenever they go into a residence (and as an FYI EMS workers will not enter a residence without a police clearance)

Very different circumstances....


I don't see the difference. EMS pop into my house all the time unannounced. I wake up in the middle of the night? Fuckers in my kitchen eating my food.


http://www.yodawgyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2301/yodawg_granturino2.JPG

[thome]

Absolutely not. But are you comparing this (as an alleged B&E ) intruder, to an EMS worker identifying him/her self whenever they go into a residence (and as an FYI EMS workers will not enter a residence without a police clearance)

Very different circumstances....

Drug Bust Cops, break down the door of the wrong house all the time and have shot innocent resistors of police authority and the cops get away with it because, drug dealer or not, the law must be adheared too...right or wrong.

We need more info here, I am guessing there is a secret intimacy between shooter and "sainted teacher" that will come to light.


Quote:
Originally Posted by knuckleboner
and what if the person was an EMT, mistakeningly given the wrong address to a heart attack victim?

still ok to shoot first, no matter what?


If it was daytime and they were yelling we are MEDACT or something ...

If it was night and in my face and crashing in my door it's thier ass...whoever it is..

Would it be murder...probably involuntary...I am sure MEDACT and Cops are trained to make thier presence know after initial entrance...

Teacher creeping thru house...in the dark.... unnanounced.......wow... sorry but, it's not like shooter was in teachers house, I'm Just Say'n...

[Igosplut]

it does say in the article that that homeowners were "devastated".

You know, does anybody believe that legal gun owners live to shoot somebody that intrude into their houses??? Does anybody here really comprehend the ramifications to a person that takes somebody's life????

Of course they were.. This was something that was devastating (I'm sure)to the person that shot as well to the family of the victim. Fuck the armchair people that criticize something they've never had to make that kind of decision...

[Igosplut]

I don't see the difference. EMS pop into my house all the time unannounced. I wake up in the middle of the night? Fuckers in my kitchen eating my food.


Stop living in the soup kitchen fucker....

[Sensible Shoes]

We need more info here, I am guessing there is a secret intimacy between shooter and "sainted teacher" that will come to light.

..
I will point out that the Sainted Teacher lives about 200 MILES AWAY!!!!! I seriously doubt that a link between the neighbor and the teacher will be found. But the chances are we ain't going to get any more info, or the info we get will be wrong. You just have to trust me on this.

[knuckleboner]

Absolutely not. But are you comparing this (as an alleged B&E ) intruder, to an EMS worker identifying him/her self whenever they go into a residence (and as an FYI EMS workers will not enter a residence without a police clearance)

Very different circumstances....

i wasn't specifically talking about this exact occurance. i was referring to elvis' assumption that if somebody came into his house his instinct would be to automatically protect.


i'm sure i can come up with a hypothetical where an EMT/policeofficer legimiately goes into a house, albeit the wrong house. no doubt they would announce themselves the second somebody came around, but if that person came blasting first, they might not have a chance.

i was just trying to say that just because you hear a noise in your house doesn't mean the first action should be to round the corner with the shotgun trigger depressing.

[Diamondjimi]

In both cases here the gun owners were in the wrong.

Agree totally Kwame. Sorry dude, accidental groan. I meant to thank ya. Go ahead, get me back! ;)

[Seshmeister]

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[Nickdfresh]

I wouldn't just "blast away" but i'm willing to bet no teachers will be wondering into this mans house anymore...


:elvis:

Yeah, that's a huge social problem. Maybe next time he can shoot a kid who accidentally wandered into his yard? That will show him!

[Nickdfresh]

My skeptical mind wonders if the 31 year old "award winning teacher" (as if that makes a difference) was there to have sex with the man's daughter and was cut off at the pass, so to speak...


:elvis:

Are you fucking retarded?

I'm pretty sure you believe that all women who've been raped "had it coming" and/or "wanted it"...

What would Jesus have done? Of course, he'd of fucking shot someone down with no warning nor the slightest inhibition apparently...

Christian bullshitter fuck...

[Seshmeister]

This has just sprung into my mind - how the fuck did the teacher get it?

If all windows and doors were locked, how do you just wander into someone's house? Secondly, if you really, really fear intruders, then you're going to keep doors locked on your property at all times, right? That way, you wouldn't need to shoot intruders because there wouldn't be any intruders.

It's a very fearful society. Do you remember the Scottish oil worker in Texas a few years ago? Correction I just googled it and it was 16 fucking years ago jeez.

Tragic case of mistaken identity/Fearful homeowner kills Scottish man 01/08/1994 | Archives | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1994_1176188/tragic-case-of-mistaken-identity-fearful-homeowner.html)

Anyhoo this is basically a difference in culture, logic has nothing to do with it.

[Seshmeister]

My skeptical mind wonders if the 31 year old "award winning teacher" (as if that makes a difference) was there to have sex with the man's daughter and was cut off at the pass, so to speak...


:elvis:


It's amazing how people perceive themselves.

You saying you have a 'skeptical mind' is like me suddenly turning around and saying I was a fundamentalist religionist.

[Nickdfresh]

First of all, I don't enter anyone's home without them answering the door and letting me in, especially if the lights are off.

Who knows if his lights were off? He may well have had several lights on, outside and in.


Secondly, you have to consider that maybe these people have been victimized in their own home in the past. It's great that this guy was a teacher, but I wonder how smart he was to just enter the home.

Um dude, they live in fucking Amherst. An upscale community routinely cited as having one of the lowest crime rates in the U.S.


It is plausible to assume that if there are only two occupants in a home, and both are in bed, that someone entering at night would be considered a threat. Ya see, it isn't so much looking at the situation and saying, "he was just in the wrong house and there was no threat", put yourself in the shoes of the shooter...To him, the intruder was a threat.

He can be perceived as a "threat", that doesn't mean one has to kill him...


Personally, I would have yelled, "Who the fuck is there?", and if I got no answer, I'd be ready to shoot, shame on you for staying quiet.
Also, If I'm going to shoot at you, you had better believe I will be shooting to kill, and i'll tell ya why.

What if it was a scared little kid?


I've been friends with law enforcement officers for many years and they have all agreed that IF you EVER shoot someone in YOUR home you had better shoot to kill. the reason being is that if there is only one story to tell then your chances of NOT being charged with a crime are much better.
If a criminal enters your house and robs you, or assaults you, or your wife, and you shoot him and only wound him, he can file charges against YOU...and WIN in criminal AND civil court, judgements against you.

Their family can still sue you no matter what. But if someone assaults you, they're probably not going to win anything and you can counter...


It happens every fucking day in America and the truth is, dead people can't speak.

The teacher in this instance, well, he made a fatal mistake because there is no way to determine whether the homeowner felt threatened or not, or to what extent.
He (the teacher) should have assessed the situation better before entering and knocked on the door, TO BE SAFE!!!

Um, he made a mistake--in an upscale suburban yuppie land neighborhood. He might have been drunk, but it's hard to foresee a guy who has everything to lose being a serious threat...


I voted the first option based on my perception of the situation should it happen to me.
If I feel my family is in danger I will act differently than if it were just myself because the responsibility to protect them increases the adrenaline rush. I may not react as i normally would as a result, but by no intentional fault of my own.

What danger was anyone in? Someone wandering through the front door doesn't equal "danger" to me. But then, maybe I just might not lose my head in that situation. I would certainly hope not...


Questions I'd like answered before drawing a conclusion here are:
Did the shooter feel any remorse after knowing it was just a mistake?
Have these homeowners ever been victimized in their home in the past?

I would think the shooter does feel some remorse, but is probably trying to rationalize it all to himself. And I find it hard to believe that many Amherst residents are ever "victimized" in their homes. I think the only real disturbances of the peace in Amherst are usually frat parties at University of Buffalo...


Typically, when something like this happens it is usually family shooting family because someone isn't where they were expected to be in the home and percieved as an intruder.

It's sad, my condolences to the teachers family, but he should have been more careful and knocked on the door before entering, especially at night.

Yeah, well, it ain't "Leave it to Beaver," is it? I remember funny instances where people walk into the wrong house/apartment, etc. Now it's a big fucking fear-a'thon of suburban paranoia...

[Blaze]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/168083840_59e84a3620.jpg

One should feel secure to sleep, day or night. Most people sleep in their homes.

The death of the teacher is an unfortunate tragedy.


Didn't DLR have an intruder once? And hold the male for police?
I Googled for a reference and the links Sarge has are broken.

I know from experience, if my home if intruded in any way, at any time I am as aggressive as the weapons at hand, until the time I do not feel threatened.

I have often striked first and ask later when startled.



I think it is the right of a home owner to feel safe and secure in their home.

I do not think it is the right of persons to feel secure "wandering", intruding, or otherwise breaching homes.


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/201/462100201_5c43de54fd.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

Wrong. It vary's state to state. Some give you the right to defend "Property" as well as life and limb (in your home). Others (like MA) give you no legal rights to defend anything including your life in your own home no matter how threatening the situation.
...

I'd love to see a case where they charged someone that was obviously was defending their own, or their family's, life...

[Nickdfresh]

I don't see the difference. EMS pop into my house all the time unannounced. I wake up in the middle of the night? Fuckers in my kitchen eating my food.


http://www.yodawgyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2301/yodawg_granturino2.JPG

The key difference here is that Clint is inviting his transgressor to "get the fuck off his lawn" with a verbal shot across-the-bow and not peppering them with .30-odd-06...

[Blaze]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/216/462126242_d65eefd37b_m.jpg

[Seshmeister]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/168083840_59e84a3620.jpg

One should feel secure to sleep, day or night. Most people sleep in their homes.

The death of the teacher is an unfortunate tragedy.


Didn't DLR have an intruder once? And hold the male for police?
I Googled for a reference and the links Sarge has are broken.

I know from experience, if my home if intruded in any way, at any time I am as aggressive as the weapons at hand, until the time I do not feel threatened.

I have often striked first and ask later when startled.



I think it is the right of a home owner to feel safe and secure in their home.

I do not think it is the right of persons to feel secure "wandering", intruding, or otherwise breaching homes.


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/201/462100201_5c43de54fd.jpg

I'm sorry you are so fearful but it is not a logical fear.

Roth found a guy in his backyard at night, pointed a shotgun at him and called the cops.

It turned out that it was a neighbor who was stoned and had got lost.

By the thinking in this thread a lot of you would have been frightened and perhaps shot and killed the intruder.

Roth at least didn't shoot him.

A similar thing has happened to me a couple of times where at the weekend 'intruders' have wandered onto my property. We don't have the same gun laws as in the US and I have used the method of saying 'Hey fuck off pal'. It works. If it didn't I would then move onto stage 2 of going inside and calling the cops because I pay for them to deal with that kind of thing safely.

If you want to get an idea on the silliness of the gun people approach I would suggest you compare the tiny tiny number of justifiable shootings defending property with the accidents caused by firearms.

The figures vary up to you being 20 times more at risk by having a gun in your house as not.

[Sensible Shoes]

It's a very fearful society. Do you remember the Scottish oil worker in Texas a few years ago? Correction I just googled it and it was 16 fucking years ago jeez.

Tragic case of mistaken identity/Fearful homeowner kills Scottish man 01/08/1994 | Archives | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1994_1176188/tragic-case-of-mistaken-identity-fearful-homeowner.html)

Anyhoo this is basically a difference in culture, logic has nothing to do with it.

Scottish Oil Worker? There's a joke there somewhere.

[Seshmeister]

I don't understand.

[Blaze]

Well, I have never shot anyone for intruding my home.

I have confronted persons intruding and call the police like one should.

But when startled, I react, then ask.

I was taught by my sheriff step father when given my first hand gun. Stay put, stay still, if they get close shoot until the gun is empty. Reload. Keep the gun on them. Call police.

That may not be the correct way.

It is not as easy to get the dead ringer shot as people thing. It is not like the movie, one shot and a person falls dead.

It is an unfortunate accident that this teacher died. Most people cannot get a shot that kills on one shot.

I have found I leap out of bed and attack with a hand weapon. The goal is to not have the home breached, once breached that is a different story.

I am a female, I was taught different. I was taught to be more deadly.

[Nitro Express]

You are justified in shooting a person if they pose a threat to your life or pose a threat of serious bodily harm. Shooting an intruder inside your home make the legal repercussions less complicated than shooting someone outside your home.

This is why it's a good idea to take some self defense and fire arms training. They drill you on all sorts of sceneros and drill the shoot and don't shoot justifications into your head. Basically, a well trained gun owner is only going to pull that trigger if it's a real threat after going through a second nature flow chart of shoot or don't shoot.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

You are justified in shooting a person if they pose a threat to your life or pose a threat of serious bodily harm. Shooting an intruder inside your home make the legal repercussions less complicated than shooting someone outside your home.

This is why it's a good idea to take some self defense and fire arms training. They drill you on all sorts of sceneros and drill the shoot and don't shoot justifications into your head. Basically, a well trained gun owner is only going to pull that trigger if it's a real threat after going through a second nature flow chart of shoot or don't shoot.

and if ya do, tap three to center mass, then continue flow chart.:baaa:

[Nitro Express]

You know, does anybody believe that legal gun owners live to shoot somebody that intrude into their houses??? Does anybody here really comprehend the ramifications to a person that takes somebody's life????

Of course they were.. This was something that was devastating (I'm sure)to the person that shot as well to the family of the victim. Fuck the armchair people that criticize something they've never had to make that kind of decision...

If you are going to use a gun in defense you need to remove emotion. You need to identify the threat and Quickly assess the situation to see if pulling the trigger is justified. It should be an unemotional, disciplined process. If you are quick to anger or afraid of pulling the trigger two things happen. You shoot someone out of anger instead of them being a real threat or you freeze and they read that and take the gun from you.

It's cold business. You don't pull a gun to threaten you pull a gun to kill and if you pull that trigger you are aiming to kill. Much like how the samuri always had to draw blood when they unshealthed their katana. Even if it was a small cut on their finger. They knew they only pulled that blade to draw blood. It was serious business. Guns used in defense are the same. If you pull one out you better be willing to follow through and actually use it.

[PETE'S BROTHER]

produce it better use, if i produce it someone's leavin'......whooahoah

[Nitro Express]

and if ya do, tap three to center mass, then continue flow chart.:baaa:

The next step on the flow chart is to tell the police you were AFRAID and feared for you life and your loved ones. Never say you are angry and never get cocky saying the asshole got what they deserved. Always say you were in fear for your life and leave it at that. The less said the better.

Also make sure you kill the SOB because it's just your story because if you just maim them, they will come at you with legal charges and you will lose in court and have to support the asshole for the rest of their life.:biggrin:

[PETE'S BROTHER]

and if the guy was drunk, didn't heed the warning, and continued towards the homeowner, how can ya possibly fault him? must notta been birdshot tho. cheney's "buddy" was "lucky".

[Nitro Express]

If I produce it, I'm too busy reading your body language and quickly interpreting it against a set of shoot don't, shoot justifications in my head. I don't have the time to get emotional. I'm assessing you like The Terminator and if my weapon comes out I mean to use it and if you are a deadly threat or a threat of serious personal injury, all that training is coming at you in the form of lead aimed at the brain, the spinal column and the heart. I'm not going to shoot off your pinky toe.

[Nitro Express]

and if the guy was drunk, didn't heed the warning, and continued towards the homeowner, how can ya possibly fault him? must notta been birdshot tho. cheney's "buddy" was "lucky".

That's one of the tricky situations. Usually the pulling of a weapon drives it home you are serious but the guy might be suicidal or just fucked in the head. You have to read the body language because they can pull a weapon or if you let them get to close to you, they can snag yours. You don't want to be in a wrestling match struggling over your firearm. So there is a ring around you that if they invade that space after warning them, you may have to dispatch them because once your weapon is out in the open and you display you mean business, and they continue to push forward, then they have issues.

This is one of the worst situations. A drunken fool in your house but you would have to be pretty fucked up not to get the fact you have a pissed off home owner with a gun pointed at you. I've never been messed up to the point where I would not understand that a 12 guage pointed at me means turn around and get the fuck out!

[PETE'S BROTHER]

I've never been messed up to the point where I would not understand that a 12 guage pointed at me means turn around and get the fuck out!

me neither, least not that i remember.:)

[LoungeMachine]

I am a female, I was taught different. I was taught to be more deadly.

Were you also taught to post naked pics of yourself on websites?

:rolleyes:

[hideyoursheep]

Were you also taught to post naked pics of yourself on websites?

:rolleyes:

Wouldn't that be considered deadly force? :hee:

[hideyoursheep]

How does someone "enter" wrong house without key?

If it were unlocked,and the shooting justified, then Kramer should have been dead the first season!

[Seshmeister]

It's interesting that in the US on average someone is shot dead every day by the police whereas in the UK its about 3 a year.

I just don't buy that guns make you safer and neither do the statistics.

[hideyoursheep]

It's interesting that in the US on average someone is shot dead every day by the police whereas in the UK its about 3 a year.

I just don't buy that guns make you safer and neither do the statistics.


Depends on where in the states you live, I think...:biggrin:


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:lmao:

[Seshmeister]

Is that from 'Americas Dumbest Cops'? :)

[hideyoursheep]

Nah, Shesh...that's where I decided to move in '97. :lol:

I felt safer..

[Igosplut]

I'd love to see a case where they charged someone that was obviously was defending their own, or their family's, life...

THIS (http://www.examiner.com/a-2555791~DA__No_charges_for_guard_in_Mass__medical_ shooting.html) is a good example of what I'm talking about in MA. They spent FIVE months investigating this security guard looking for an angle to charge him in the shooting death of a psychiatric patient as the patient stabbed a doctor multiple times. The burden is always on the shooter regardless of the actions of the person shot. I'll look around for more cases..

Here's some links to the incident.. The first one states that it was justified, but they investigated him for five more months.

Preliminary investigation finds patient's shooting was justifiable (http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/10/security_guard.html)

MGH slaying to be investigated as police-involved shooting (http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/10/_tom_landersglo.html)

[Igosplut]

i wasn't specifically talking about this exact occurance. i was referring to elvis' assumption that if somebody came into his house his instinct would be to automatically protect.

Depends on your neighborhood I would say. But I get your point.



i'm sure i can come up with a hypothetical where an EMT/policeofficer legimiately goes into a house, albeit the wrong house. no doubt they would announce themselves the second somebody came around, but if that person came blasting first, they might not have a chance.

EMS protocol is very clear about entering a home (I worked for a Paramedic, and they all hung out at the shop so I have sort of an inside track on it) Police respond first in most cases, and anything with the least bit of trouble the police clear the scene for EMS.


i was just trying to say that just because you hear a noise in your house doesn't mean the first action should be to round the corner with the shotgun trigger depressing.

Any gun owner that walks around with a weapon and his/her finger on the trigger is more likely to shoot their dumbass selves in the foot, than any intruder. One of the first things you are taught is to only have place your finger on the trigger when you are ready to fire.....

[Igosplut]

You are justified in shooting a person if they pose a threat to your life or pose a threat of serious bodily harm. Shooting an intruder inside your home make the legal repercussions less complicated than shooting someone outside your home.

Not in MA. You have no legal right to use deadly force for ANYTHING in any circumstances. Many states allow just that (I.E. right to defend laws).


This is why it's a good idea to take some self defense and fire arms training. They drill you on all sorts of sceneros and drill the shoot and don't shoot justifications into your head. Basically, a well trained gun owner is only going to pull that trigger if it's a real threat after going through a second nature flow chart of shoot or don't shoot.

Absolutely fucking right. It's your responsibility as a gun owner.

[Seshmeister]

Not in MA. You have no legal right to use deadly force for ANYTHING in any circumstances. Many states allow just that (I.E. right to defend laws).





Are you sure?

Self defence is ingrained in common law.

[Nickdfresh]

THIS (http://www.examiner.com/a-2555791~DA__No_charges_for_guard_in_Mass__medical_ shooting.html) is a good example of what I'm talking about in MA. They spent FIVE months investigating this security guard looking for an angle to charge him in the shooting death of a psychiatric patient as the patient stabbed a doctor multiple times. The burden is always on the shooter regardless of the actions of the person shot. I'll look around for more cases..

Here's some links to the incident.. The first one states that it was justified, but they investigated him for five more months.

Preliminary investigation finds patient's shooting was justifiable (http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/10/security_guard.html)

MGH slaying to be investigated as police-involved shooting (http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/10/_tom_landersglo.html)

I haven't read the article yet, but there seems to be a whole 'nother dynamic when we're talking security guards on duty at hospitals...

[Nickdfresh]

If you are going to use a gun in defense you need to remove emotion. You need to identify the threat and Quickly assess the situation to see if pulling the trigger is justified. It should be an unemotional, disciplined process. If you are quick to anger or afraid of pulling the trigger two things happen. You shoot someone out of anger instead of them being a real threat or you freeze and they read that and take the gun from you.
....

You can't just "remove" emotion, but one definitely needs to control it. Also, if you have some bullshit Rambo-fantasy were you're just waiting for the time you can become a vigilante for a day, something violent is far more likely to happen. Yeah, attitude, self-training and visualization have a lot to do with it...

[Igosplut]

Are you sure?

Self defence is ingrained in common law.

Very sure. That's one of the laws that is being addressed. MA. considers all (legal) gun owners criminals in waiting...

[Igosplut]

I haven't read the article yet, but there seems to be a whole 'nother dynamic when we're talking security guards on duty at hospitals...

He was an off-duty guard from somewhere else, not the hospital. It was just meant to show how they handle things here. I'll find other examples..

[Nitro Express]

Not in MA. You have no legal right to use deadly force for ANYTHING in any circumstances. Many states allow just that (I.E. right to defend laws).



Absolutely fucking right. It's your responsibility as a gun owner.

I view it this way. If you kill a person who would kill you, at least you are alive to argue with the stupid state. I don't care what state you live in, if you shoot someone outside of your home, you better have a good lawyer. But we are talking life and death. If you don't want to play games with the government and legal system, just let the asshole kill you.

[Igosplut]

I view it this way. If you kill a person who would kill you, at least you are alive to argue with the stupid state. I don't care what state you live in, if you shoot someone outside of your home, you better have a good lawyer. But we are talking life and death. If you don't want to play games with the government and legal system, just let the asshole kill you.

Ya, you think?

They don't care, like I said if you are a legal gun owner in MA you are viewed (by the state) as one step up from a criminal. Read that story I linked for Nick, THAT off duty security guard shot a guy who was stabbing a woman to death and it took more than five months for the state DA to decide not to prosecute him. Really fucked up thing..

[ELVIS]

Hmmm...

[hideyoursheep]

I am going out on a limb here, and I will say that yes, it has more to do with the state in which you live, and whether or not the judge and prosecutor are Republicans who are supported by members of the NRA-because there is no continuity between what is acceptable in different areas of the US.

If this guy were a convicted felon trying to break into a house, while the resident were on the line with police awaiting assistance, would the dispatcher give the green light to shoot because that person had the "right to defend your property" as was the case in Texas (I think) a few months ago?

Anybody who fires a weapon at another individual is using deadly force. You don't suddenly become a "surgeon" and determine that your target will live or die if you fire at a certain spot. That shit is ridiculous.

[conmee]

Invariably in this country, the victim must jump through all manner of hurdles and legal processes and investigation and public madness. It's better just to kill intruders dead and deal with the aftermath, than a) try to spark up a conversation about what they are up to and their intentions in your domicile, b) give them time to shoot/stab/kill you, c) wound them and get sued for protecting your shit and family.

Having said that, this is a tragedy. And yes, I also post naked pics of myself on the internet....

That is all.

Icon

[LoungeMachine]

Were you also taught to post naked pics of yourself on websites?

:rolleyes:


I've been told I've mistaken THIS Julia for the other wack job who posted nude pics of herself here.

Easy mistake.

When you post under 4 different aliases, Julie, Oolith, standin, and fianlly blaze, and call yourself a TWATambassador, it's easy to confuse you with the OTHER wackjob named Julia.

Not to say I know for a fact you havent posted nude pics of yourself.

Just a note to mention I don't know.

:gulp:

Icoke on the other hand has had his junk plastered on every porn site in the entire interwebs.

[conmee]

LM,

You better find one of my recent posts, and get it back into your goddam signature, or I'll resort to extreme measures...

That is all.

Icon

[GAR]

I don't understand.

She's a Celtaphobe!

[Unchainme]

Rest in peace. :(

if only it could have been Savicki being the one shot. :(

[LoungeMachine]

if only it could have been Savicki being the one shot. :(

Personally, as much as I despise Savicki, I dont like these kinds of posts, man.

Just my personal opinion.

:gulp:

We shouldnt wish deadly harm on anybody.

[Blaze]

I never took you as someone against nudity, LM.
Would that be TWAN or TWAP. ;)

I get nude every day when I shower. However, I only published the polar plunge into an ice-hole in the Antarctica's Southern Ocean.

[Unchainme]

Personally, as much as I despise Savicki, I dont like these kinds of posts, man.

Just my personal opinion.

:gulp:

We shouldnt wish deadly harm on anybody.

My bad man.

wasn't really mean't literally, just was trying to further the insults.

[Anonymous]

No bullet would hit Suckadicki, anyway.

Even bullets have standards.

And they don't know where he's been.

Cheers! :bottle:

[Sensible Shoes]

Should I go off on a tear defending Savicki now?????


NAH.

[hideyoursheep]

Should I go off on a tear defending Savicki now?????


NAH.


Let Laura and Sammy, the 2 biggest pop stars ever, defend him.

[Seshmeister]

Every time I see the title of this thread I wonder what difference it would make if he was an unpopular teacher. :)

[Anonymous]

There'd be alot more people taking the home owner's side, I tell you that.

People are funny that way.

If they're capable of drawing conclusions based on imagined scenarios, they're capable of switching sides because of one word.

"Well, he WAS unpopular, so he probably was a son of a bitch & also probably tried to break in this guy's house & attack him, so he had to defend himself."

Cheers! :bottle:

[Seshmeister]

Very sure. That's one of the laws that is being addressed. MA. considers all (legal) gun owners criminals in waiting...


GENERAL LAWS OF MASSACHUSETTS

Chapter 278: Section 8A. Killing or injuring a person unlawfully in a dwelling; defense.

Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.

[Seshmeister]

I should charge for some of these posts.

There you go Igo you can blast away at them to your hearts content... :)

[ELVIS]

That's how the world should be...


:elvis:

[Igosplut]

GENERAL LAWS OF MASSACHUSETTS

Chapter 278: Section 8A. Killing or injuring a person unlawfully in a dwelling; defense.

Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.

I should charge for some of these posts.

There you go Igo you can blast away at them to your hearts content...


And that law specifically does not have the term or wording "Firearm" in it anywhere, does it?? That law as defined by MA. AG does not address firearms.

You are not allowed to defend yourself (or use deadly force by firearm) with a firearm in MA. regardless. They do not grant you that right.

[kentuckyklira]

Hw was perfectly within his rights to defend himself and his family...

We don't know what was or what was not said...


:elvis:

He hadn´t even locked his door. Could have been a couple of kids playing a prank.

IMHO, the killer ought to get locked away for life. You leave your front door unlocked and then shoot someone who accidently enters your house, what´s wrong with you people?:(

[Igosplut]

He hadn´t even locked his door. Could have been a couple of kids playing a prank.

IMHO, the killer ought to get locked away for life. You leave your front door unlocked and then shoot someone who accidently enters your house, what´s wrong with you people?:(

Did you even READ the thread?? He hardly shot him for just walking through the door as you imply....

[Blackflag]

His fault for leaving his door unlocked? That's awesome.

[kentuckyklira]

Wrong.

Deadly force is only justified when one's life is threatened.

Simple breaking and entering is not grounds for use of deadly force, except if this teacher came after the homeowner with a knife, gun, or other weapon...which I doubt happened.

Just the fact that this teacher was in his house is not grounds to blast him.

At least that's what we were taught.

Charge the homeowner with manslaughter at the minimum.



.

WOW,

I agree with you!

Incredible!

[kentuckyklira]

So, I protected my family...

If you accidently shot my fiance, kid, dad, mom because you thought you were "defending" your family you´d find out what Albanian immigrants are prepared to do for 1000 Euros!

[Blackflag]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SQkgi27nIScnQM:http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/crackpot.gif

[Anonymous]

If you accidently shot my fiance, kid, dad, mom because you thought you were "defending" your family you´d find out what Albanian immigrants are prepared to do for 1000 Euros!

Dude, no offence, but I really must ask this... what the hell would your mom be doing in Elvis's place?

Cheers! :bottle:

[kentuckyklira]

Dude, no offence, but I really must ask this... what the hell would your mom be doing in Elvis's place?

Cheers! :bottle:

True dat!

What was I thinking?

[ashstralia]

Dude, no offence, but I really must ask this... what the hell would your mom be doing in Elvis's place?

Cheers! :bottle:

having just read this entire interesting thread,
BAZINGA!!!