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John Ashcroft
06-03-2004, 09:48 AM
With all the nay saying about our presence in Iraq, it's worth noting that none of these difficulties are particularly new. No postwar occupation has been without serious challenges, including the occupation of Germany after World War II. The New York Times ran a series of news stories in late 1945 reporting, in part, the following:

"Germans Reveal Hate of Americans," October 31, 1945

The German attitude toward the American occupation forces has swung from apathy and surface friendliness to active dislike. According to a military government official, this is finding expression in the organization of numerous local anti-American organizations throughout the zone and in a rapid increase in the number of attacks on American soldiers. There were more such attacks in the first week of October than in the preceding five months of the occupation, this source declared.
This official views the situation as so serious that he and others are protesting the withdrawal of 1,600 experienced military-government officers form the German governments on township, county and regional levels between Nov. 1 and Dec. 15. "We have been talking since the summer about the trouble that we expect this winter," the source said. "That trouble has now begun and we meet it with a plan to withdraw officers from communities where trouble is already being encountered.

"Loss of Victory in Germany Through U.S. Policy Feared," November 18, 1945

Grave concern was expressed today by informed officials that the United States might soon lose the fruits of victory in Germany through the failure to prepare adequately for carrying out its long-term commitments under the Potsdam Declaration. Government failures were attributed in part to public apathy. The predictions of a coming crisis are predicated upon three points:
1) The failure to start training a civilian corps of administrators to take over when the Army's Military Government pulls out of Germany by June 1.

2) The failure of the Government to set up an expert advisory group, such as that which existed in the Foreign Economic Administration's Enemy Branch to back up the American administrators of Germany with informed advice and provide a focal point in Washington for policy-making on the German question.

3) The failure of the Allies to decide together, or the United States for itself, the crucial economic question raised by the Potsdam Declaration; namely what level of German economic activity is desired over the long term?


"Germans Declare Americans Hated," December 3, 1945

An exhaustive compilation of opinions of Germans in all walks of life on their reaction to the United States occupation of their country was released this afternoon from the confidential status under which it was submitted to officials of the United States Forces in the European Theatre recently.
Bitter resentment and deep disappointment was voiced over the Americans' first six months of occupation, though there was some praise for the improvements in transportation, health conditions, book publishing and entertainment.

"German Election Set In Towns of U.S. Zone," December 19, 1945

United States Seventh Army headquarters announced today that plans had been completed for initial German elections in January at Gemuende. A statement said that a vast majority of Germans remained passive in attitude toward politics and displayed no disposition to take over civic responsibilities.
I think we can agree that the postwar occupation of Germany, and the rest of Europe, worked out quite well, despite numerous difficulties and the best efforts of the New York Times to highlight them — as it does today in postwar Iraq.

So, how'd that all turn out? Is Germany stable now? Interesting that the Mark drove a huge chunk of the European (and even middle-eastern) economy before the Euro took over...

Link: here (http://www.nationalreview.com/levin/levin200406011433.asp)

FORD
06-03-2004, 11:44 AM
I'll bet the US soldiers in Germany weren't throwing German citizens into Hitler's gas showers or brick ovens.

Which would be the historical equivalent of what is going on now, with Saddams prisons of torture being re-opened under "new management".

John Ashcroft
06-03-2004, 11:54 AM
Dude, fuck off for that. No, nevermind... Keep shouting shit like that at the top of your lungs. At the next Algore/moveon.org gathering, or Kerry campaign stop, make yourself a big old banner calling the troops baby killers and such. The voters will love that!

I'll bet in another thread you'll go on to say "I support the troops, just not their mission".

FORD
06-03-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Dude, fuck off for that. No, nevermind... Keep shouting shit like that at the top of your lungs. At the next Algore/moveon.org gathering, or Kerry campaign stop, make yourself a big old banner calling the troops baby killers and such. The voters will love that!

I'll bet in another thread you'll go on to say "I support the troops, just not their mission".

How about... I support troops who act according to the appropriate and accepted laws

As far as "the mission" goes, it's illegal, immoral, and fascist. But I don't blame that on the troops. Only the fucking sick criminal bastards who sent them there.

John Ashcroft
06-03-2004, 01:25 PM
Uh huh...

Well, I don't think you'll find anyone supporting the minute fraction of a fraction of American troops that are breaking the law in Iraq (or anywhere else). But to paint all servicemen and women involved in the operation as the new, "torturing" management, which you did here:


Originally posted by FORD
I'll bet the US soldiers in Germany weren't throwing German citizens into Hitler's gas showers or brick ovens.

Which would be the historical equivalent of what is going on now, with Saddams prisons of torture being re-opened under "new management".

Is fucking bullshit. Not to mention there was no torture, only humiliation. To equate it with throwing civilians (not even combatants) into brick ovens or gas chambers is stupid (and yet you consider yourself more intelligent than President Bush???)

Oh, and BTW, you libs are really getting the message out there! Check this out:

Glass half full for most Americans

Americans are optimistic, "very satisfied with life" and have confidence in their public institutions, especially the U.S. armed forces and law-enforcement agencies, two new polls show.

Fifty-six percent of Americans say their personal situation has improved over the last five years, up seven points since last year, and 68 percent expect their personal situation to improve over the next five years, up five points from 2003, a Harris poll released yesterday found.

"These changes since last year almost certainly reflect improvements in the economy and are probably good news for President Bush," the poll stated. "The better people feel about their personal situation, the more likely they are to vote for an incumbent." The number of people who feel their lives have worsened in the last five years declined to 16 percent, five percentage points lower than last year.

That's about the right number of Dean supporters...

Meanwhile, the nation's confidence in its public institutions is on the rise, according to a Gallup poll released yesterday.

Americans trust their military the most, with 75 percent saying they have a "great deal" or "quite a lot" of confidence in the armed forces. The figure is more or less on par with previous years, despite the Iraqi prisoner-abuse problem. Last year, the confidence level in the military was 82 percent. In 2002, it was 79 percent.

American law enforcement has also won the public's trust, with 64 percent saying they had "a great deal" or "quite a lot" of confidence in the police. It is the highest rating for law enforcement in more than a decade, and up from 61 percent last year and 59 percent in 2002. According to the Harris poll of 979 adults taken between April 8 and 15, men are slightly happier than women. Go figure!

Overall, 60 percent of American males report being "very satisfied with life." Fifty-nine percent of women agree. Another 55 percent of men say their lives have improved in the last five years and 71 percent expect them to improve in the future. Among women, those figures were 57 percent and 65 percent, respectively. Along racial and ethnic lines, 61 percent of blacks say they are "very satisfied" with their lives. The figure was 60 percent among whites and 46 percent among Hispanics. Whites were the least optimistic about the future, with 62 percent saying their lives would improve in five years. The figure was 86 percent for both blacks and Hispanics.

The happiest Americans? It is a tie between the 25- to 29-year-old crowd and those over 65 — in both groups, 69 percent reported they were "very satisfied." Still, 89 percent of those from 25 to 29 said their lives would improve over the next five years; only 23 percent of those over 65 agreed.

According to the Gallup poll of 1,002 adults conducted May 21 to 23, 53 percent said they had a "great deal" or "quite a lot" of confidence in both organized religion and the banking system. Another 52 percent felt the same about the presidency.

Confidence levels varied elsewhere, with 46 percent citing their confidence in the U.S. Supreme Court, 44 percent in the medical system, 41 percent in public schools and 34 percent in the criminal justice system. At the very bottom of the list were health maintenance organizations at 18 percent, "big business" at 24 percent; newspapers, TV news and the U.S. Congress all at 30 percent, and organized labor at 31 percent.

That part's a hoot! The confidence in the President is almost double that of Congress and Labor Unions! Keep up the good work!

Link: You sure it's working Ford? (http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040602-010026-1935r.htm)

Dr. Love
06-03-2004, 01:42 PM
Man. We need another war for FORD to bitch about. I think we've about exhausted the bitching for this war.