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BigBadBrian
04-05-2010, 07:46 AM
The Real Arithmetic of Health Care Reform
Published: March 20, 2010
Arlington, Va.

Thursday, the Congressional Budget Office reported that, if enacted, the latest health care reform legislation would, over the next 10 years, cost about $950 billion, but because it would raise some revenues and lower some costs, it would also lower federal deficits by $138 billion. In other words, a bill that would set up two new entitlement spending programs — health insurance subsidies and long-term health care benefits — would actually improve the nation’s bottom line.

Could this really be true? How can the budget office give a green light to a bill that commits the federal government to spending nearly $1 trillion more over the next 10 years?

The answer, unfortunately, is that the budget office is required to take written legislation at face value and not second-guess the plausibility of what it is handed. So fantasy in, fantasy out.

In reality, if you strip out all the gimmicks and budgetary games and rework the calculus, a wholly different picture emerges: The health care reform legislation would raise, not lower, federal deficits, by $562 billion.

Gimmick No. 1 is the way the bill front-loads revenues and backloads spending. That is, the taxes and fees it calls for are set to begin immediately, but its new subsidies would be deferred so that the first 10 years of revenue would be used to pay for only 6 years of spending.

Even worse, some costs are left out entirely. To operate the new programs over the first 10 years, future Congresses would need to vote for $114 billion in additional annual spending. But this so-called discretionary spending is excluded from the Congressional Budget Office’s tabulation.

Consider, too, the fate of the $70 billion in premiums expected to be raised in the first 10 years for the legislation’s new long-term health care insurance program. This money is counted as deficit reduction, but the benefits it is intended to finance are assumed not to materialize in the first 10 years, so they appear nowhere in the cost of the legislation.

Another vivid example of how the legislation manipulates revenues is the provision to have corporations deposit $8 billion in higher estimated tax payments in 2014, thereby meeting fiscal targets for the first five years. But since the corporations’ actual taxes would be unchanged, the money would need to be refunded the next year. The net effect is simply to shift dollars from 2015 to 2014.

In addition to this accounting sleight of hand, the legislation would blithely rob Peter to pay Paul. For example, it would use $53 billion in anticipated higher Social Security taxes to offset health care spending. Social Security revenues are expected to rise as employers shift from paying for health insurance to paying higher wages. But if workers have higher wages, they will also qualify for increased Social Security benefits when they retire. So the extra money raised from payroll taxes is already spoken for. (Indeed, it is unlikely to be enough to keep Social Security solvent.) It cannot be used for lowering the deficit.

A government takeover of all federally financed student loans — which obviously has nothing to do with health care — is rolled into the bill because it is expected to generate $19 billion in deficit reduction.

Finally, in perhaps the most amazing bit of unrealistic accounting, the legislation proposes to trim $463 billion from Medicare spending and use it to finance insurance subsidies. But Medicare is already bleeding red ink, and the health care bill has no reforms that would enable the program to operate more cheaply in the future. Instead, Congress is likely to continue to regularly override scheduled cuts in payments to Medicare doctors and other providers.

Removing the unrealistic annual Medicare savings ($463 billion) and the stolen annual revenues from Social Security and long-term care insurance ($123 billion), and adding in the annual spending that so far is not accounted for ($114 billion) quickly generates additional deficits of $562 billion in the first 10 years. And the nation would be on the hook for two more entitlement programs rapidly expanding as far as the eye can see.

The bottom line is that Congress would spend a lot more; steal funds from education, Social Security and long-term care to cover the gap; and promise that future Congresses will make up for it by taxing more and spending less.

The stakes could not be higher. As documented in another recent budget office analysis, the federal deficit is already expected to exceed at least $700 billion every year over the next decade, doubling the national debt to more than $20 trillion. By 2020, the federal deficit — the amount the government must borrow to meet its expenses — is projected to be $1.2 trillion, $900 billion of which represents interest on previous debt.

The health care legislation would only increase this crushing debt. It is a clear indication that Congress does not realize the urgency of putting America’s fiscal house in order.

Douglas Holtz-Eakin, who was the director of the Congressional Budget Office from 2003 to 2005, is the president of the American Action Forum, a policy institute.
Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html)

BigBadBrian
04-05-2010, 07:50 AM
Is there anyone here that actually believes this law will reduce the deficit and not jeopardize medicare like we've been told, especially after they cut $500 Billion in medicare spending? If so, quit drinking the Obama flavored Kool-Aid.

People are in for tax increases AND increases in the cost of their health insurance policies.

knuckleboner
04-05-2010, 07:55 AM
i'm not going to address this entire article, but i gotta comment on a few of its points:


The Real Arithmetic of Health Care Reform
Published: March 20, 2010
Arlington, Va.


Gimmick No. 1 is the way the bill front-loads revenues and backloads spending. That is, the taxes and fees it calls for are set to begin immediately, but its new subsidies would be deferred so that the first 10 years of revenue would be used to pay for only 6 years of spending.


uh, actually, the SAME CBO report says that in the following 10 years, the legislation will reduce the deficit by between 0.25% and 0.5% of GDP, which is between $500 billion and $1 trillion. so after 20 years, its still reducing the deficit.




Consider, too, the fate of the $70 billion in premiums expected to be raised in the first 10 years for the legislation’s new long-term health care insurance program. This money is counted as deficit reduction, but the benefits it is intended to finance are assumed not to materialize in the first 10 years, so they appear nowhere in the cost of the legislation.



i'm not 100% sure on how the legislation would raise premiums over a decade. but i will tell you this, WITHOUT reform, health insurance premiums have been rising really fast. much faster than inflation / income growth. so it's a little crazy to assume that because premiums will rise some amount over 10 years, that that's horrible legislation.




Finally, in perhaps the most amazing bit of unrealistic accounting, the legislation proposes to trim $463 billion from Medicare spending and use it to finance insurance subsidies. But Medicare is already bleeding red ink, and the health care bill has no reforms that would enable the program to operate more cheaply in the future. Instead, Congress is likely to continue to regularly override scheduled cuts in payments to Medicare doctors and other providers.


the legislation is actually projected to make medicare more solvent. without reform, it becomes insolvent in 2017. with this reform, it pushes that back to at least 2027.



let's just remember, there's a LOT of sleight of hand going on with the health care bill...including the opponents...

ELVIS
04-05-2010, 11:27 AM
The CBO has never been anywhere close to accurate, and everything always costs more, by at least a factor of ten...

Nitro Express
04-05-2010, 01:44 PM
Social Security is now paying out more than it's taking in. The federal government is the biggest debtor in world history at the moment and Federal Reserve monitary policy is heading to devaluation and more inflation. It's hit the iceberg and they can't make good on any of their promises. Meanwhile the fat cats will steal what they can just like they did in Russia when the Soviet system was falling apart. A lot of offshore bank accounts will get fatter while the average person get's fucked.

I've seen this plenty of times in other countries I just never thought I would see it here. It's all bullshit basically and not much substance or real future growth production in it at all. The parasites are basically sucking what's left out before the host dies.

sadaist
04-05-2010, 02:34 PM
People are in for tax increases AND increases in the cost of their health insurance policies.


Why people don't realize this is insane. 35 million more people getting a product, and the price will remain the same? Hardly. Service will remain the same? Not even close. There are no provisions in this bill to add doctors to cover the increased demand. Might as well sign up for a liver or kidney now even if you don't need one. By the time your number is chosen you just might.

LoungeMachine
04-05-2010, 03:42 PM
The CBO has never been anywhere close to accurate, and everything always costs more, by at least a factor of ten...

Utter bullshit.

Way to argue with facts.

:gulp:

BigBadBrian
04-06-2010, 05:41 AM
Utter bullshit.

Way to argue with facts.

:gulp:

Elvis may have not provided you with data or a link, but he was arguing with facts nonetheless, particularly when it comes to government guesstimates of healthcare costs.

Here's a link (http://jec.senate.gov/republicans/public/_files/Are_Health_Care_Reform_Cost_Estimates_Reliable__Ju ly_31_2009.pdf) and an excerpt:

In 1965, as Congress considered legislation to establish a national Medicare program, the House Ways and Means Committee estimated that the hospital insurance portion of the program, Part A, would cost about $9 billion annually by 1990.v Actual Part A spending in 1990 was $67 billion. The actuary who provided the original cost estimates acknowledged in 1994 that, even after conservatively discounting for the unexpectedly high inflation rates of the early ‘70s and other factors, “the actual [Part A] experience was 165% higher than the estimate.”

ALSO

Medicare (entire program). In 1967, the House Ways and Means Committee predicted that the new Medicare program, launched the previous year, would cost about $12 billion in 1990. Actual Medicare spending in 1990 was $110 billion—off by nearly a factor of 10.

AND

In 1987, Congress estimated that Medicaid’s disproportionate share hospital (DSH) payments—which states use to provide relief to hospitals that serve especially large numbers of Medicaid and uninsured patients—would cost less than $1 billion in 1992. The actual cost that year was a staggering $17 billion. Among other things, federal lawmakers had failed to detect loopholes in the legislation that enabled states to draw significantly more money from the federal treasury than they would otherwise have been entitled to claim under the program’s traditional 50-50 funding scheme.

Medicare home care benefit. When Congress debated changes to Medicare’s home care benefit in 1988, the projected 1993 cost of the benefit was $4 billion. The actual 1993 cost was more than twice that amount, $10 billion.

Medicare catastrophic coverage benefit. In 1988, Congress added a catastrophic coverage benefit to Medicare, to take effect in 1990. In July 1989, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) doubled its cost estimate for the program, for the four-year period 1990-1993, from $5.7 billion to $11.8 billion. CBO explained that it had received newer data showing it had significantly under-estimated prescription drug cost growth, and it warned Congress that even this revised estimate might be too low. This was a principal reason Congress repealed the program before it could take effect.

BigBadBrian
04-06-2010, 05:54 AM
uh, actually, the SAME CBO report says that in the following 10 years, the legislation will reduce the deficit by between 0.25% and 0.5% of GDP, which is between $500 billion and $1 trillion. so after 20 years, its still reducing the deficit.

the legislation is actually projected to make medicare more solvent. without reform, it becomes insolvent in 2017. with this reform, it pushes that back to at least 2027.



The CBO doesn't normally make cost estimates past the 10-year mark for good reason: they are absolutely horrible at it. Here's that link (http://jec.senate.gov/republicans/public/_files/Are_Health_Care_Reform_Cost_Estimates_Reliable__Ju ly_31_2009.pdf) again.

And the part about making "medicare more solvent." That doesn't even make sense. Cutting the Medicare budget by half to pay the health insurance of others isn't going to do anything but make the deficit grow.

Bush took this country into a state of free-for-all spending. Obama has done nothing to that except increase the rate of that mad spending spree.

If the US were a person, it'd be locked up for writing bad checks.

Seshmeister
04-06-2010, 06:32 AM
A question especially for the religionists as they ponder how to stop the government sharing some of their money with the poor.

If 100 000 people in the US die each year because of a lack of healthcare how much would you be willing for the government to invest to prevent a death?

$1000 to prevent each death?

$10 000?

$100 000?

If the US did start the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to prevent another 9-11 then that works out at $1 trillion / 2976 which is $336 021 505 per life at the moment.

And remember a lot of those WTC people were foreign!

BigBadBrian
04-06-2010, 11:47 AM
A question especially for the religionists as they ponder how to stop the government sharing some of their money with the poor.

If 100 000 people in the US die each year blah blah blah ad nauseum...

Medicaid WILL cover the vast majority of truly poor people (not the "I don't want to work" crowd) if they'd just apply for it.

That's about all they are going to get with Obamacare anyway.

Jesus Christ
04-06-2010, 01:26 PM
A question especially for the religionists as they ponder how to stop the government sharing some of their money with the poor.

If 100 000 people in the US die each year because of a lack of healthcare how much would you be willing for the government to invest to prevent a death?

$1000 to prevent each death?

$10 000?

$100 000?

If the US did start the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to prevent another 9-11 then that works out at $1 trillion / 2976 which is $336 021 505 per life at the moment.

And remember a lot of those WTC people were foreign!

It never ceases to amaze Me how a mocker and blasphemer such as thyself can actually understand My teachings better than many who claim to believe in Me. :(

Maybe I'll have to let you out of Hell after all? :jesuslol:

Blackflag
04-06-2010, 02:01 PM
A question especially for the religionists as they ponder how to stop the government sharing some of their money with the poor.

If 100 000 people in the US die each year because of a lack of healthcare how much would you be willing for the government to invest to prevent a death?

$1000 to prevent each death?

$10 000?

$100 000?


The government is not a religion, and forced charity is just theft.

LoungeMachine
04-06-2010, 02:05 PM
The government is not a religion, and forced charity is just theft.

It's not charity.

It's just good business sense.

If it's cheaper to PREVENT disease than to treat it, why not prevent it?

The question should reall be why are we being taxed to pay MORE for treatment when we could SAVE money with prevention

:gulp:

Blackflag
04-06-2010, 02:32 PM
It's not charity.

It's just good business sense.

If it's cheaper to PREVENT disease than to treat it, why not prevent it?

The question should reall be why are we being taxed to pay MORE for treatment when we could SAVE money with prevention

:gulp:

Sesh was arguing the moral basis. Did you read the post I was responding to?

LoungeMachine
04-06-2010, 02:38 PM
Sesh was arguing the moral basis. Did you read the post I was responding to?

And I was responding to you calling it "forced charity" and making the point it's actually very cost-effective and cheaper for all of us to prevent as opposed to treating.

:gulp:

I've given up on trying to convince hypocritical "Christians" here that they have the moral obligation.

They can quote the Jewish Zombie, they just can't follow his teachings worth a shit.

Blackflag
04-06-2010, 02:50 PM
And I was responding to you calling it "forced charity" and making the point it's actually very cost-effective and cheaper for all of us to prevent as opposed to treating.

If you want to make a mathematical argument, I'll listen to that.

But don't tell me you're going to hold a gun to somebody's head and take their cash, and your rationale is that it's the moral thing to do.




They can quote the Jewish Zombie, they just can't follow his teachings worth a shit.

And you're going to use the government to force them to follow the beliefs, right?

LoungeMachine
04-06-2010, 03:02 PM
And you're going to use the government to force them to follow the beliefs, right?

Wrong.

Don't be an idiot.

:gulp:

Blackflag
04-06-2010, 03:05 PM
Wrong.

Don't be an idiot.

:gulp:

Then why do you care if they're Christians?

LoungeMachine
04-06-2010, 03:09 PM
Then why do you care if they're Christians?

omg.

Fuck, sometimes you're as thick as they come......

:gulp:

I dont give a shit who worships whom, moron......

I enjoy pointing out their HYPOCRISY and how their "beliefs" never seem to line up with their politics.

Shit, son. Have you nothing better to do than post stupid ass questions like this?

Maybe if you applied yourself, one of those fat government contracts would land on your desk eventually.....

Blackflag
04-06-2010, 03:14 PM
I have to admit, calling people hypocrites usually makes for a strong argument. I'm sold.

LoungeMachine
04-06-2010, 03:15 PM
I have to admit, calling people hypocrites usually makes for a strong argument. I'm sold.

Then my work here is done.

Think I'll make a sandwich.

:gulp:

Blackflag
04-06-2010, 03:17 PM
I'll take pastrami.

Anonymous
04-06-2010, 03:18 PM
I'll take your mom.

Cheers! :bottle:

LoungeMachine
04-06-2010, 03:20 PM
I'll take your mom.

Cheers! :bottle:

Why the uncured meat?

:gulp:

Anonymous
04-06-2010, 03:22 PM
One word:

Gummy blowjobs.

Cheers! :bottle:

Anonymous
04-06-2010, 03:22 PM
Double posts are getting really nasty.

Cheers! :bottle:

Anonymous
04-06-2010, 03:24 PM
:umm:

...

Just like Black Fag's mom.

Cheers! :bottle:

binnie
04-06-2010, 03:39 PM
One word:

Gummy blowjobs.

Cheers! :bottle:

I threw up in my mouth a little from laughing so hard at that...... :D

BigBadBrian
04-06-2010, 05:02 PM
I've given up on trying to convince hypocritical "Christians" here that they have the moral obligation.

They can quote the Jewish Zombie, they just can't follow his teachings worth a shit.

You know nothing of the Christian faith. You're only fooling yourself...and that idiot with the username "Jesus Christ" on this board. He knows little more than you do.

PETE'S BROTHER
04-06-2010, 05:03 PM
blasphemer!!:biggrin: