Collateral Murder

[Seshmeister]

Video Shows 2007 Air Attack in Baghdad That Killed Photographer - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/middleeast/06baghdad.html?src=me)




WASHINGTON — The Web site WikiLeaks.org released a graphic video on Monday showing an American helicopter shooting and killing a Reuters photographer and driver in a July 2007 attack in Baghdad.
A senior American military official confirmed that the video was authentic.

Reuters had long pressed for the release of the video, which consists of 38 minutes of black-and-white aerial video and conversations between pilots in two Apache helicopters as they open fire on people on a street in Baghdad. The attack killed 12, among them the Reuters photographer, Namir Noor-Eldeen, 22, and the driver, Saeed Chmagh, 40.

At a news conference at the National Press Club, WikiLeaks said it had acquired the video from whistle-blowers in the military and viewed it after breaking the encryption code. WikiLeaks edited the video to 17 minutes.

David Schlesinger, the editor in chief of Reuters news, said in a statement that the video was “graphic evidence of the dangers involved in war journalism and the tragedies that can result.”

On the day of the attack, United States military officials said that the helicopters had been called in to help American troops who had been exposed to small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades in a raid. “There is no question that coalition forces were clearly engaged in combat operations against a hostile force,” Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl, a spokesman for the multinational forces in Baghdad, said then.

But the video does not show hostile action. Instead, it begins with a group of people milling around on a street, among them, according to WikiLeaks, Mr. Noor-Eldeen and Mr. Chmagh. The pilots believe them to be insurgents, and mistake Mr. Noor-Eldeen’s camera for a weapon. They aim and fire at the group, then revel in their kills.

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“Look at those dead bastards,” one pilot says. “Nice,” the other responds.

A wounded man can be seen crawling and the pilots impatiently hope that he will try to fire at them so that under the rules of engagement they can shoot him again. “All you gotta do is pick up a weapon,” one pilot says.

A short time later a van arrives to pick up the wounded and the pilots open fire on it, wounding two children inside. “Well, it’s their fault for bringing their kids into a battle,” one pilot says.

At another point, an American armored vehicle arrives and appears to roll over one of the dead. “I think they just drove over a body,” one of the pilots says, chuckling a little.

Reuters said at the time that the two men had been working on a report about weightlifting when they heard about a military raid in the neighborhood, and decided to drive there to check it out.

“There had been reports of clashes between U.S. forces and insurgents in the area but there was no fighting on the streets in which Namir was moving about with a group of men,” Reuters wrote in 2008. “It is believed two or three of these men may have been carrying weapons, although witnesses said none were assuming a hostile posture at the time.”

The American military in Baghdad investigated the episode and concluded that the forces involved had no reason to know that there were Reuters employees in the group. No disciplinary action was taken.

Late Monday, the United States Central Command, which oversees the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, released the redacted report on the case, which provided some more detail.

The report showed pictures of what it said were machine guns and grenades found near the bodies of those killed. It also stated that the Reuters employees “made no effort to visibly display their status as press or media representatives and their familiar behavior with, and close proximity to, the armed insurgents and their furtive attempts to photograph the coalition ground forces made them appear as hostile combatants to the Apaches that engaged them.”

Brian Stelter contributed reporting from New York.

[Jesus Christ]

:cry2: (Jesus wept.)

[Baby's On Fire]

This was pre-meditated murder, plain and simple.

Even the TV viewer can see these people weren't carrying AK-47s.....and the special forces hovering overhead can't see even better than the TV viewer?

And I suppose the children were just really short insurgents?

These killers should be put against a wall and executed.

And don't tell me the "fog of war" bullshit......

[Nickdfresh]

This was pre-meditated murder, plain and simple.
......

Not premeditated, more like a crime of passion. But pretty fucking nauseating nonetheless...

[Baby's On Fire]

The killers were calmly observing, and waiting for the victims to provoke them...such as pick up a weapon.

This wasn't a crime of passion...it was calmly premeditated murder.

[Nickdfresh]

The killers were calmly observing, and waiting for the victims to provoke them...such as pick up a weapon.

This wasn't a crime of passion...it was calmly premeditated murder.

Oh please, tell me the difference between a camera and a Milan anti-tank missile at several hundred meters visual range.

But I'm not apologizing, I agree that U.S. forces here lacked professionalism and a military bearing (restraint)...

[Baby's On Fire]

Oh please, tell me the difference between a camera and a Milan anti-tank missile at several hundred meters visual range.

But I'm not apologizing, I agree that U.S. forces here lacked professionalism and a military bearing (restraint)...

Several hundred meters visual range? Fucking bullshit....Try about 20 metres viewing range. Did you see the footage?

The TV viewer can clearly see thay don't have AK-47s..........Gimme a fucking break.

And as the TV pundits from the intelligence community explained so well...if they were insurgents, they should have captured them...especially after they were lying dying on the ground...

Stop making bullshit excuses...these soliders are murderers......They just wanted to kill....regardless.

And of course the children were clearly not carrying weapons.....Notwithstanding the fact they were clearly children.....

[LoungeMachine]

Gee, guess who is drunk and posting again.......


:gulp:

Pass the OJ!!!!

[Unchainme]

Gee, guess who is drunk and posting again.......


:gulp:

Pass the OJ!!!!

anyone got their flux capacitor ready?

[Nickdfresh]

Several hundred meters visual range? Fucking bullshit....Try about 20 metres viewing range. Did you see the footage?

Um, so the choppers were 20m away, oh son of Canada?


The TV viewer can clearly see thay don't have AK-47s..........Gimme a fucking break.

I don't recall arguing that anyone did have AK47s...


And as the TV pundits from the intelligence community explained so well...if they were insurgents, they should have captured them...especially after they were lying dying on the ground...

"Pundits from the intelligence community?" Oh, okay...


Stop making bullshit excuses...these soliders are murderers......They just wanted to kill....regardless.

Oh course, that what soldiers do. They are trained to kill copiously throughout their training. But you're trying to make this some black-and-white exercise in massacres...


And of course the children were clearly not carrying weapons.....Notwithstanding the fact they were clearly children.....

Of course the children were clearly children at several hundred meters via IR cam. And no one had concealed weapons and all that shit you're trying to make some easy, cut-and-dry decision --which never exists in war...

You're just another fucking troll tosser. so why do I bother?

[Anonymous]

Easy there, Lounge.

Let him post something stupid first. It won't take long.

Hey Tard on Fire. How's tricks?

Cheers! :bottle:

[Blackflag]

a crime of passion.

:confused13:

[LoungeMachine]

:confused13:

Nice editting out of context, you fucking cunt.

:rolleyes:

[Blackflag]

Not premeditated, more like a crime of passion.

:confused13:

[Baby's On Fire]

Um, so the choppers were 20m away, oh son of Canada?



I don't recall arguing that anyone did have AK47s...



"Pundits from the intelligence community?" Oh, okay...



Oh course, that what soldiers do. They are trained to kill copiously throughout their training. But you're trying to make this some black-and-white exercise in massacres...



Of course the children were clearly children at several hundred meters via IR cam. And no one had concealed weapons and all that shit you're trying to make some easy, cut-and-dry decision --which never exists in war...

You're just another fucking troll tosser. so why do I bother?


No...their zoom range was down to metres....idiot.

Did you watch the fucking footage?

[Nickdfresh]

:confused13:

That's how your mother looks at my penis...

[Unchainme]

No...their zoom range was down to metres....idiot.

Did you watch the fucking footage?

YouTube - 88 mph bttf Delorean (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfnAb11wKQc&NR=1)

did you watch this fucking footage?:biggrin:

[Baby's On Fire]

Um, so the choppers were 20m away, oh son of Canada?



I don't recall arguing that anyone did have AK47s...



"Pundits from the intelligence community?" Oh, okay...



Oh course, that what soldiers do. They are trained to kill copiously throughout their training. But you're trying to make this some black-and-white exercise in massacres...



Of course the children were clearly children at several hundred meters via IR cam. And no one had concealed weapons and all that shit you're trying to make some easy, cut-and-dry decision --which never exists in war...

You're just another fucking troll tosser. so why do I bother?

The MSNBC footage discusses the "Ak-47s".

And anti-tank weapons have a more noticable profile than an AK-47, don't they? And the TV viewer csan clearly see they aren't fucking carrying rocket launchers.....

Did you watch the footage, idiot?

[Blackflag]

Yep, a mom joke is always simpler than defending your ignorant statements. Smart.

[Baby's On Fire]

Gee, guess who is drunk and posting again.......


:gulp:

Pass the OJ!!!!


How are your children? Wondering where their daddy is?

[Unchainme]

The MSNBC footage discusses the "Ak-47s".

And anti-tank weapons have a more noticable profile than an AK-47, don't they? And the TV viewer csan clearly see they aren't fucking carrying rocket launchers.....

Did you watch the footage, idiot?

what Canadian beer did you get wasted on tonight?

whats the deal with you guys wanting a rye and ginger over lemonade?

Do you root on the ti-cats or the argos?

[Baby's On Fire]

YouTube - 88 mph bttf Delorean (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfnAb11wKQc&NR=1)

did you watch this fucking footage?:biggrin:


Did you watch the fucking MSNBC footage, which is the orignal encrypted footage?

Dumbass.

[Unchainme]

Did you watch the fucking MSNBC footage, which is the orignal encrypted footage?

Dumbass.

Have you ever watched back to the future?

Are you in fact, the canadian John Titor?

[Baby's On Fire]

Nice editting out of context, you fucking cunt.

:rolleyes:

Brilliant, as usual.

I would expect no greater rsponse from a cowardly, brain dead moron such as yourself.

[Nickdfresh]

No...their zoom range was down to metres....idiot.

"Zoom range" my ass, fuckwit. There's nothing definitive...


Did you watch the fucking footage?

Yeah, I did. I also listened to the audio, which pretty clearly indicates a murky notion of what happened. But hindsight is "20/20," asshole. Though, you wouldn't know, as you've never served nor had to make such decisions...


Incidentally, I think I clearly stated that the U.S. pilots acted unprofessionally an inappropriately. Now go take some supplements so you can get it up to fuck another hooker that hates you, fuckwit....

[Baby's On Fire]

what Canadian beer did you get wasted on tonight?

whats the deal with you guys wanting a rye and ginger over lemonade?

Do you root on the ti-cats or the argos?


None of the above.

[Unchainme]

Brilliant, as usual.

I would expect no greater rsponse from a cowardly, brain dead moron such as yourself.

why did you guys try to get Motley Crue kicked out of your country?

were you the one that made the threatening phone calls, calling in a bomb threat?

[Unchainme]

None of the above.

I see, must be a blue bombers fan I assume..or a Rough Riders fan. (sucks they folded, but oh well)

[Baby's On Fire]

"Zoom range" my ass, fuckwit. There's nothing definitive...



Yeah, I did. I also listened to the audio, which pretty clearly indicates a murky notion of what happened. But hindsight is "20/20," asshole. Though, you wouldn't know, as you've never served nor had to make such decisions...


Incidentally, I think I clearly stated that the U.S. pilots acted unprofessionally an inappropriately. Now go take some supplements so you can get it up to fuck another hooker that hates you, fuckwit....

What do you mean, nothing definitive?

The zoom is down to maybe 20 metres. Are you fucking blind or just didn't watch it?

You can clearly see they are unarmed......and prompter points out which 2 guys in the crowd are the Reuters reporters....hard to fukcing do if you're too far away.

And then of course, you fail to defend the killers from noting the children they tried to kill.

[Baby's On Fire]

I see, must be a blue bombers fan I assume..or a Rough Riders fan. (sucks they folded, but oh well)

None of the above.

[Unchainme]

None of the above.

Not a football fan.

for shame.

I guess thats probably due to the lack of real football in terms of the NFL and NCAA we have here.

[Anonymous]

Did you watch the fucking MSNBC footage, which is the orignal encrypted footage?

Dumbass.


Brilliant, as usual.

I would expect no greater rsponse from a cowardly, brain dead moron such as yourself.

... aaaaand we're on.

Back to insulting like a motherfucker.

I often wonder what Tard's on Fire life is like. Must be real shit, if he's always so bitter & aggressive.

Maybe it's not really is fault.

Maybe we should cut him some slack.

...

HAHAHAHAHA!!! :lol: I kill myself at times.

Hey Tard on Fire... I'll bet you you can't go 10 pots without resorting to bitterly insulting someone.

Cheers! :bottle:

[Baby's On Fire]

why did you guys try to get Motley Crue kicked out of your country?

were you the one that made the threatening phone calls, calling in a bomb threat?

What?

Why did "us guys" try to kick out Motley Crue? Who the fuck is "us guys"?

Oh right...the American thinks all Canadians know each other...and we don't have cars.

And thus the futility of any attempts at rational discussion with you.

You should go back to protesting Obamacare.....

[Baby's On Fire]

... aaaaand we're on.

Back to insulting like a motherfucker.

I often wonder what Tard's on Fire life is like. Must be real shit, if he's always so bitter & aggressive.

Maybe it's not really is fault.

Maybe we should cut him some slack.

...

HAHAHAHAHA!!! :lol: I kill myself at times.

Hey Tard on Fire... I'll bet you you can't go 10 pots without resorting to bitterly insulting someone.

Cheers! :bottle:


Yup....money...freedom...work if and when I feel like it.....and everything else.

Yes...so bitter and angry.......I just like to watch idiots like you bumble and stutter...with absolutely nothing to say of any intelligence at all.

And of course, avoiding the topic and discussion at hand......With insults and diversions.

You haven't contributed anything to the topic of the thread.....but that's no surprise.

[Unchainme]

What?

Why did "us guys" try to kick out Motley Crue? Who the fuck is "us guys"?

Oh right...the American thinks all Canadians know each other...and we don't have cars.

And thus the futility of any attempts at rational discussion with you.

You should go back to protesting Obamacare.....

when was I protesting obamacare? :biggrin:

How do you think the Blue Jays will do this year? You think Bosh will stay with the Raptors after June? Will the leafs or senators ever win the cup again?

[Nickdfresh]

What do you mean, nothing definitive?

The zoom is down to maybe 20 metres. Are you fucking blind or just didn't watch it?

I think I said I did, ADATS. But, apparently you're ignorant to the fact that no definitive conclusions can be drawn from even 20m...


You can clearly see they are unarmed......and prompter points out which 2 guys in the crowd are the Reuters reporters....hard to fukcing do if you're too far away.

No one "clearly" sees anything. Do you even know what a MILAN is?


And then of course, you fail to defend the killers from noting the children they tried to kill.

Um, WTF does that sentence even mean? Why did I "fail to defend the killers from nothing the children they tried to kill?" I don't think I even tried...

[Seshmeister]

Oh please, tell me the difference between a camera and a Milan anti-tank missile at several hundred meters visual range.

But I'm not apologizing, I agree that U.S. forces here lacked professionalism and a military bearing (restraint)...

No doubt shit like this used to happen in previous wars all the time before we had video evidence but there are some problems here apart from an apparent cover up attempt.

1) It seems to confirm this gung ho kill em all reputation the US air military suffers from. I think there is a training problem here whereby the worry that people won't fire at all has been replaced with an eagerness. That's particularly inappropriate in this theatre.

2) Even if the camera had been an RPG what about the rest of them who were obviously unarmed? The video doesn't show the context in that there was apparently some prior small arms fire in the area. Even if that is so which we are going to start to doubt after

3) What is the agenda in killing people who try to rescue wounded?

4) I think one of the things that pisses me off about this is the comments about 'Great shooting'. That anyone could think that was in any way a heroic incredibly skilled action is sickening.

Does all the militarism and military worship amongst the US population encourage this?

5) Why have concern for innocent children but none for civilian adults?

Smacks of PR concerns...

[Nickdfresh]

...
Oh right...the American thinks all Canadians know each other...and we don't have cars.
........

Um, he's Portuguese. Have another Molson Ice, you hoser!

[Nickdfresh]

No doubt shit like this used to happen in previous wars all the time before we had video evidence but there are some problems here apart from an apparent cover up attempt.

1) It seems to confirm this gung ho kill em all reputation the US air military suffers from. I think there is a training problem here whereby the worry that people won't fire at all has been replaced with an eagerness. That's particularly inappropriate in this theatre.

I couldn't agree more that a "gung ho" willingness to fire is completely fucking retarded. I think I've tried to argue that, and that the US pilots were wrong and should never have fucking fired overall. But I'm a bit tired. So I won't point out that if this were Northern Ireland, and they were alleged-IRA, you wouldn't mind so much...


2) Even if the camera had been an RPG what about the rest of them who were obviously unarmed? The video doesn't show the context in that there was apparently some prior small arms fire in the area. Even if that is so which we are going to start to doubt after

But they crowded around an event afterward, which some ignorant take for guilt. I stated I don't agree. But spare me that this is all some cut-and-dry massacre. It isn't!


3) What is the agenda in killing people who try to rescue wounded?

I dunno. You're asking the wrong guy as I think I've fucking stated no less than three times now that they were wrong...


4) I think one of the things that pisses me off about this is the comments about 'Great shooting'. That anyone could think that was in any way a heroic incredibly skilled action is sickening.

I agree, and was nauseated by that as well. But let's not pretend we don't have our individual ethnic hatreds and blood feuds...

I hate them all. But I try not to make hypocritical distinctions between them that amount to hindsight, second-guessing, and blatant double-standards...


Does all the militarism and military worship amongst the US population encourage this?

Oh please, does anyone in Europe, the home of the bloodiest pogroms of the 20th century of "Enlightenment" really need to ask this?


5) Why have concern for innocent children but none for civilian adults?


I have concern for all, which is why I believe there should be a fair inquiry into all of this. But not a fucking politically expedient witch-hunt!

[Blaze]

This is something that has pondered me while writing this script....

Can any active war not have war criminals?

It appears to me by the shear nature of war there should be war criminals.
To not have war criminal accounted for, there would need to be a fudge of the records.
:thoughts:

[WACF]

Another take...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c1b_1270800204

[Nickdfresh]

Exactly what I was getting at, thank you. You can pretty much slant any video to match the "evil U.S. babykillers" stereotype, but that's just as bullshit as Bush and his Neocon'ts lying us into Iraq... IMHO

[Seshmeister]

Another take...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c1b_1270800204

Haven't had a chance to watch this yet but to be fair to WikiLeaks from the very start they did make the unedited video available as well as the edited one.

[WACF]

Exactly what I was getting at, thank you. You can pretty much slant any video to match the "evil U.S. babykillers" stereotype, but that's just as bullshit as Bush and his Neocon'ts lying us into Iraq... IMHO



Well...that edited version was put out for only one reason...and you pretty much nailed it.

That edit was not just an oops...