Led Zeppelin's Plagiarism

[Jagermeister]

According to the Federal lawsuit obtained by TMZ, Jake Holmes says he snagged a copyright for "Dazed and Confused" in 1967, two years before Zeppelin recorded its version that sounds suspiciously similar.Could it be -- Zep ripped off a folk singer? Listen to Holmes' 1967 recording.
Here's the good news for Page. Even if a court decides Page ripped off Holmes, the folk singer can only sue for damages from the last 3 years, because of that pesky statute of limitations.

As for why Holmes waited so long to sue ... who knows? His attorney had no comment.


http://www.tmz.com/2010/06/29/led-zeppelin-dazed-and-confused-jimmy-page-lawsuit-jake-holmes/

[Jagermeister]

Holy shit! LMAO!

[sadaist]

Meh, nothing new. Led Zep has stolen before. But is it really stealing when you take something kinda crappy and make it in to a masterpiece?


Led Zep rocks!!

[chefcraig]

Yeah, this has been "debated" for years, and the evidence pretty much points to the fact that Page, Plant and the boys never heard a riff they didn't mind appropriating. Or as Homer Simpson was remarked while visiting England:

"Let's just look. There's Big Ben; there's Piccadilly Circus; there's Jimmy Page, the greatest thief of American black music who ever walked the Earth; Oh, there's the kids."

[Igosplut]

As for why Holmes waited so long to sue ... who knows? His attorney had no comment.



Somebody just gave him the eight track??

[Hardrock69]

Willie Dixon successfully sued Led Zep back in the day for 'ripping him off'.

[chefcraig]

Willie Dixon successfully sued Led Zep back in the day for 'ripping him off'.

The entire "You Need Love" case was really odd. To begin with, Dixon wasn't even aware of the "Whole Lotta Love" tune until sometime in the nineties, and by then he didn't even own the rights to his own song. It took some protracted legal tap dancing to get the issue into court in the first place.

Over the years, Led Zep have very quietly settled many of their plagiarism accounts, which explains the widely varied and at times contradictory songwriting credits on each new compilation of the band's work. This does not excuse what took place, however. Stealing other people's work and claiming it to be your own simply sucks. Arguably, the group would have made pretty much the same (OK, slightly less) amount of dough had they included the original composers in the credits. Instead, in what can only be seen as an act of outright greed, they chose not to. This does nothing to dilute the impact of the music, only their legacy somewhat. And much like steroid use in the NFL, the average fan apparently could not care less.

[silverfish]

I seem to recall an interview where Robert Plant says the intro to
"Rock & Roll" was "nicked" from Little Richard's "Keep A Knockin".
Check those out side by side!

[sadaist]

As for the guy waiting until now to sue. I read he can only get money (if he wins) for the last 3 years of sales. Could it be that they are timing this with the decline of online music sales, in the belief that the last 3 years of Led Zep digital purchases are the sweet spot so to speak?

Really, they have probably sold more digitally in the last 3-5 years than in the previous 10-15 years to that during the cd & Cassette era. As for why it wasn't before that I have no clue. It might be he did raise a stink, was paid off, but is now hungry for more.

Either way, Led Zeps version sounds better to me.

[Hardrock69]

I have a bootleg CD at home called something like "The Roots Of Led Zeppelin", and it has every song that Zep used as 'inspiration', or any song they blatantly ripped off.

Kinda interesting. And yes it has the Little Richard song with the same drum intro as "Rock and Roll".

[chefcraig]

I have a bootleg CD at home called something like "The Roots Of Led Zeppelin", and it has every song that Zep used as 'inspiration', or any song they blatantly ripped off.

I have a similar boot as well, and some of the stuff is nothing short of astounding. To name but a few, Plant lifted the words to "Since I've Been Loving You" just about verbatim from a Moby Grape song called "Never", while stealing the vocal delivery for "Whole Lotta Love" from Steve Marriott on the Small Faces' "You Need Loving". Page lifted the opening chords to "Stairway To Heaven" from a Spirit tune called "Taurus", and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

There is a fascinating article about Zep's thievery (including some quotes from Jake Holmes from 2001, along with some rather disingenuous denials from Page about the origin of "Dazed And Confused") available at this link:
The Thieving Magpies - Jimmy Page's Dubious Recording Legacy (http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html)

[Kristy]

I'd just like to say I fucking hate Jimmy Page.

[Nitro Express]

I'd just like to say I fucking hate Jimmy Page.

Why? He was wearing an Armani suit when I met him. Another fan of expensive Italian things like yourself.

[hambon4lif]

"Rock And Roll has never been averse to a bit of thievery"- Robert Plant
.......yeah, no shit!

This is only one-half of the list!

"Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" - A folk song by Anne Bredon, this was originally credited as "traditional, arranged by Jimmy Page, " then "words and music by Jimmy Page, " and then, following legal action, "Bredon/Page/Plant."

"Black Mountain Side" - uncredited version of a traditional folk tune previously recorded by Bert Jansch.

"Bring It On Home" - the first section is an uncredited cover of the Willie Dixon tune (as performed by the imposter Sonny Boy Williamson).

"Communication Breakdown" - apparently derived from Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown."

"Custard Pie" - uncredited cover of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down, " with lyrics from Sleepy John Estes's "Drop Down Daddy."

"Dazed And Confused" - uncredited cover of the Jake Holmes song (see The Above Ground Sound Of Jake Holmes).

"Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" - uncredited version of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down."

"How Many More Times" - Part one is an uncredited cover of the Howlin' Wolf song (available on numerous compilations). Part two is an uncredited cover of Albert King's "The Hunter."

"In My Time Of Dying" - uncredited cover of the traditional song (as heard on Bob Dylan's debut).

"The Lemon Song" - uncredited cover of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor" - Wolf's publisher sued Zeppelin in the early 70s and settled out of court.

"Moby Dick" - written and first recorded by Sleepy John Estes under the title "The Girl I Love, " and later covered by Bobby Parker.

"Nobody's Fault But Mine" - uncredited cover of the Blind Willie Johnson blues.

"Since I've Been Lovin' You" - lyrics are the same as Moby Grape's "Never, " though the music isn't similar.

"Stairway To Heaven" - the main guitar line is apparently from "Taurus" by Spirit.

"White Summer" - uncredited cover of Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."

"Whole Lotta Love" - lyrics are from the Willie Dixon blues "You Need Love."

I'm not listing covers that the band credited to the actual authors ("You Shook Me") or the less blatant ripoffs (the "Superstition" riff in "Trampled Underfoot").

[Seshmeister]

He's also like Gary Glitter a fan of very young things...

[ThrillsNSpills]

Bron Y Aur Stomp was another one ripped from Bert Jansch.

[hambon4lif]

To be honest, every band has copped shit from someone else that came before them.

Even Van Halen....

When I was just a little Ham, I grew up in a house where my old man would blare Bad Company, Grand Funk, Humble Pie every single night at window-shattering volume.
The very first time I heard "So This Is Love", I felt like I'd heard it before.....the bass line sounded so fucking familiar! Turns out that I did hear it before....it's the identical bass line of Grand Funks "Foot Stompin' Music".

Point is, nobody's an original anything, they've all lifted things from other artists at one time or another, but Led Zeppelin has been taken to the wall as far as legal action, more than any other band in rock history. The Beatles might come in a very close second as far as that goes.....

[Seshmeister]

Big difference between being influenced or even lifting a riff and copying whole songs complete with lyrics.

[Kristy]

Point is, nobody's an original anything, they've all lifted things from other artists at one time or another, but Led Zeppelin has been taken to the wall as far as legal action, more than any other band in rock history. The Beatles might come in a very close second as far as that goes.....

This is true with Roth himself saying "everyone steals from everybody" but he also went on to say is to take what you stole and make it into something of your own doing. Page, at least to me, could never fanthom that notion. It's quite clear either by "musicologist" or out of court settlements that Page is/was a known plagiarist who. once found out could never do shit since - hint 'The Firm' and that whole Coverdale/Page debacle where by my best guess he was plagiarizing himself in that instance.

[ThrillsNSpills]

Interestingly, another Little Games album track, the modish "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor" opens with a progression that Page would later use as the opening chords on Led Zeppelin's "The Song Remains The Same." (I don't think a sus4 chord that you rip off from yourself really counts, but here it is anyway)

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[Kristy]

Why? He was wearing an Armani suit when I met him. Another fan of expensive Italian things like yourself.

I had a friend who claimed to have seen Page in a London bookstore about 9 years ago. He told me the dude looked like a fat Chinaman

[Igosplut]

There is a fascinating article about Zep's thievery (including some quotes from Jake Holmes from 2001, along with some rather disingenuous denials from Page about the origin of "Dazed And Confused") available at this link:
The Thieving Magpies - Jimmy Page's Dubious Recording Legacy (http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html)

That's a great read, thanks Chef. Lots of that stuff I never realized. One of the more funny quotes was "Robert Plant's hamster-with-its-ass-on-fire caterwauling"

[Hardrock69]

Am in the midst of watching the documentary from last year called "It Might Get Loud" with Jimmy, The Edge, and Jack White. Pretty interesting so far.

[Kristy]

Page was not the first guitarist to use a violin bow. He was a favorite session musician of famed producer, Shel Talmy. Talmy had used Page on session work for the Who and the Kinks among others. One of Talmy's pet projects was a band called the Creation. Eddie Phillips, lead guitarist of said group, had employed a violin bow on his guitar on two 1966 singles, "Painter Man" and "Making Time." It's worth musing over whether Page ever happened to see Phillips use the violin bow in the studio. Talmy himself had no doubts about it. In the book, Unknown Legends of Rock 'n' Roll, he shared his views on Eddie Phillips and Jimmy Page with author Richie Unterberger. He [Phillips] was one of the most innovative guitarists I've ever run across. Jimmy Page stole the bowing bit of the guitar from Eddie. Eddie was phenomenal," Talmy said."

Page claimed to have seen the use of a violin bow for the first time when touring with the Yardbirds in America in late '68 by a guitar player he saw on stage in Alabama. But seriosuly, this is Jimmy Page - who the fuck cares?

[Seshmeister]

I'm too young to have seen him live with Led Zep but I've seen live videos where he's pretty shit.

I don't know if that is due to booze or drugs or whatever but his playing is just plain bad.

[clarathecarrot]

I Am A Root Vegetable

[GreenBayLA]

Yeah, who didn't Led Zep rip off?

[Diamondjimi]

[Diamondjimi]

They seem to have forgotten this one....

[78/84 guy]

It's no secret anymore Jimmy ripped off alot of music. I do remember him saying he heard the guy doing Dazed on the Yardbird's tour in an interview. So where this guy gets his info that Page said he never heard it before I don't get. Maybe in the early years he denied it. I think it's just a matter of stealing from people you injoy that are mostly unknown by the teenagers and kid's band's like Zeppelin, The Who and the Yardbirds were playing for at the time. Mostly forgotten blues and folk tunes. Page probably didn't ever think Zeppelin would become big enough for people to notice !! Including the people he ripped off. And people would be digging up their influences 40 years latter !! I love Page but it is a little crazy to just take credit for all of it. I love all the Zeppelin albums to this day but I listen to them with a different view than I did 20 years ago !! Nothing wrong with a good cover tune !! I'm Suprised more artist's or their families have not gone after Page for credit.

[Seshmeister]

To be fair though they were influential,

Jimmy Page was fucking children well before Roman Polanski and Gary Glitter...

[binnie]

To be fair though they were influential,

Jimmy Page was fucking children well before Roman Polanski and Gary Glitter...

How times change. It seems the 'underage' groupie thing was fairly standard fair back in the '60s/'70s. Not sure that equates him with Glitter, who really was going after children. Whilst both actions are despicable, to me their is a big difference between a girl of 14/15 and 8 or 9. I am not defending Page in any way, mind.

[Nitro Express]

To be fair though they were influential,

Jimmy Page was fucking children well before Roman Polanski and Gary Glitter...

Probably fucking them inside a pentagram on the floor of Owlister Crowley's living room.

[Seshmeister]

How times change. It seems the 'underage' groupie thing was fairly standard fair back in the '60s/'70s. Not sure that equates him with Glitter, who really was going after children. Whilst both actions are despicable, to me their is a big difference between a girl of 14/15 and 8 or 9. I am not defending Page in any way, mind.

A few things really bug me about the Page thing though. First up as the guitarist in the biggest band in the world he had a vast choice of adult girls to choose from, he was in his late 20s so in no way borderline, and he and they all obviously knew it was very wrong as Peter Grant was smuggling her in through back doors of hotels and so on. Also this wasn't a drunken mistake it was an ongoing thing.

You're right times have changed in the same way that supposedly Mary was 12 when she got pregnant with Jesus and Mohammed had an 11 year old but this was only the 70s and Roman Polanski was prosecuted for the same age.

[Seshmeister]

Probably fucking them inside a pentagram on the floor of Owlister Crowley's living room.

Owlister Crowley - was he in Harry Potter? :biggrin:

[Nitro Express]

He's going to be in the next movie as a satanic owl type character.

[Nitro Express]

I read a book on Bill Graham and it talked about how Led Zeppelin's whole organization was so corrupt that he banned them from playing the SF Bay Area. I mean their manager was a real thug who went after one of Graham's roadies for stopping the manager's son from vandalizing the back stage area. Graham paid the band an advance and gave the money to an armed drug dealer. These were the type of people who have organized crime connections, were armed, and could snap, hurt and even kill people. The management were scum and the band were scum. Graham said the only decent person in the lot was Robert Plant but he was a dick less wonder that just went along with it. Graham said rock and roll had it fair share of scummy characters and drugs but Led Zeppelin were to the point of being a mafia organization in their own right. Their manager was a thug and the band felt they were entitled to anyone and anything they wanted. Pure scum apparently so yeah, I doubt these guys would give anyone any credit.

[Nitro Express]

No normal person would want to fuck a 12 year old. Especially, when you are a famous rock star with plenty of legal hot ass wanting your cock. The guys that go after the jail bait that young are predators in every sense of the word.

[Nitro Express]

I had a friend who claimed to have seen Page in a London bookstore about 9 years ago. He told me the dude looked like a fat Chinaman

LOL! Yeah he does have kind of a squinty eyed thing happening. I met him when he was still dying his hair. You could tell he was a man that loved attention and was totally into the fame thing. He seemed nice enough but then it's the nice guys who tend to be the biggest freaks behind closed doors.

[Hardrock69]

That was an interesting read. Here is the song Knowing That I'm Losing You which later showed up as the Zep track "Tangerine".

What a fucking thief. Can't deny his abilities as a guitarist, but his ethics are sub-standard to say the least. Not to mention fucking 12-year-olds....

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[Terry]

While there certainly are instances of Zeppelin nicking other people's material, there are also enough instances (The Song Remains The Same, Rain Song, Over The Hills And Far Away, Kashmir, The Rover, In The Evening, Achilles Last Stand, Royal Orleans) to make the case that Zeppelin did in fact take their influences and mold them into something unique. Not that this excuses any of the other examples of essentially outright copying while passing it off as their own, but it would be a bit of a sweeping generalization to say Zeppelin were nothing but a bunch of musical robbers.

They did have a pretty brutal organization far as managers and touring staff went. Some of the stuff that surfaced in later years...like, it seemed odd that Richard Cole would even want to tell those stories he did...I mean, obviously he needed the money by the time he was giving those interviews and a good chunk of what he said happened smacks of bullshitting, but it was just odd how he told those tales of the Zep organization beating people up with what came across as a sense of pride. Both Jones and Plant at various stages wanted to leave the band because of all the nasty shit the Zep crew was instigating, with Plant lobbying Grant in 1980 to remove Cole from his touring duties as a precondition for Plant/Zep to tour Europe and schedule an American tour for the fall of 1980.

By the time Presence came around, to me it seemed Zeppelin pretty much were what their critics claimed they were, inasmuch as they were a bunch of millionaire junkies with massive egos and had little to no rappore for the audiences they still played for. I mean, half hour drum solos? Although it is almost sacreligious to Zep superfans to say it, there were few things illustrative of pompous, overindulgent stadium rock in the 1970s than having to sit through 30 minutes of John Bonham wanking his drum kit.

Unlike seemingly 90% of classic rock fans, I think Plant is 100% correct in refusing to reform the band. Page, on the other hand, obviously wants to. While their reunion show of a few years ago was by far the best they put on since they broke up, it was a bit sad to see them tuning down on so many songs to accomodate Plant's voice. Whatever one thinks of Plant's solo career in terms of personal taste, the fact of the matter is that since Zeppelin split up Plant has made consistently interesting music that didn't need to trade in on what Zeppelin did every step of the way. Page has been spent creatively since 1976.

[78/84 guy]

I agree with most of the above, Zeppelin's original's were great !! But most of what Page has done since 76 has been good. The Zeppelin reunion should have been the Page/Plant tours when Robert could still sing !! The Firm cd's were good tunes underproduced, I have a live Firm boot from a FM broadcast that is outstanding !! The Coverdale/Page disc was full of great tunes. To bad Coverdale sang on it instead of Plant who refused !! Funny, a few years latter he was working with Page again for the 2 tours. Page played better on those tour's than the last tours Zeppelin did after 75. I'm sure drugs were the cause of his bad play in the late 70's. I saw his solo tour in 88 right after he was terrible at the Atlantic records reunion show and he was fantastic !! The Plant/Page tours were very good. I wish they would release some of those on dvd.