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BigBadBrian
01-04-2011, 06:34 AM
They're Back! The Return of the Death Panels
Paul Greenberg
LINK (http://townhall.com/columnists/PaulGreenberg/2011/01/04/theyre_back!_the_return_of_the_death_panels/page/full/)

They were supposed to be gone. They were supposed never to have existed. Remember the foofaraw over the part of ObamaCare that was going to have Medicare finance, uh, consultations about end-of-life treatment? They soon were dubbed death panels. The name stuck, and every time advocates of the idea derided it -- untrue! fictional! absurd! wholly imaginary! -- they only gave it more currency.

Which term do you prefer, end-of-life counseling or death panels? It makes quite a difference when discussing the issue. Because when it comes to a political conflict, vocabulary remains the Little Round Top of every engagement, the strategic height that determines the outcome of the battle. And any mention of death tends to, well, kill off enthusiasm for a proposal. Whether we're talking death panels or the death tax. (Its advocates much prefer to speak of the estate tax even if it's the same thing.) Why be blunt? Especially if it's going to cost your side of the debate votes.

Awkward facts must be sidestepped, euphemisms invented. The way abortion has become Choice. Names count; what a proposal is called may determine whether it ever gets into law. And so the death panels/end-of-life consultations had to be dropped from the final version of ObamaCare, which goes by an official euphemism of its own: the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) of 2009. And its Section 1233 raised concerns that the patient might be protected to death.

At the least the controversial section was sure to produce a whole new para-medical sub-specialty. For where there's a Medicare payment, payees are bound to spring up. (In economicspeak, this is called incentivizing.) What do you think the practitioners of this new art/science would be called? Nothing very precise, one can be sure. Preferably something long and latinate, a term that softens the hard edges of its meaning, something high-toned, even classical. How about thanatopsists?

You can almost see the new occupation being plugged into every top-flight medical center's table of organization. ("Thanatopsy? It's in Annex B on Level II. You'll have to take the elevator to the main floor, cross the parking lot, go through the underground garage, enter the red door and get off on Blue Level. It's simple. Just follow the signs. Be sure to bring your parking ticket, photographic ID, proof of insurance, medical records, list of pharmaceuticals, and....")

Thanatopsy. What better way for fledgling bioethicists to begin a long career of not calling things by their right names? Why alarm people by facing the facts of life, or rather death? Better to speak of end-of-life care or advance planning or, well, anything but death. Euphemism is the health of bioethics, which is never to be confused with ethics, or at least the kind explored by Aristotle or Bonhoeffer.

It's a strange thing: The very people so eager to plan for death never use the word. In any event, Section 1233 and its provision for periodic consultations about (insert appropriate euphemism here) never made it into law. Oh, death, where is thy sting, grave thy victory?

Answer: In a brand-new Medicare regulation in effect as of this brand-new year -- January 1, 2011 A.D. Issuing a regulation is always the fallback position for an administration that can't convince Congress to follow its lead. What an inconvenience it is to have to deal with popularly elected legislators anyway; they're so fickle, so sensitive, so slow to see reason ... and so accountable to the voters at the next election. Why not just work around them? Spare them the heat. We'd be doing them a favor, right?

And so it was done. Section 1233 now has been reborn as a Medicare regulation authorizing payment for "voluntary advance planning" to discuss, uh, end-of-life issues with patients and provide them with information about preparing an "advance directive" should they develop a life-threatening illness. Or well before.

With the disappearance of the old-time family doctor (and friend) in American medicine, the kind of physician who might be counted on to know a patient's condition, convictions, temperament and particular idiosyncrasies, we can now rely on experts to conduct these consultations. What a comfort. Kind of.

Don't get me wrong. There's no reason to doubt the president when he assures us in his ever-delicate way that there's nothing in his vast new health plan that "would pull the plug on grandma." These doctors, or some specially trained intern on their staff, would just ask the old lady a few questions periodically.

But as every polemicist knows, the way a question is asked can determine the answer. To quote one of those experts -- a thanatopsist? -- at the University of Michigan, someone with heart disease might be asked: "If you have another heart attack and your heart stops beating, would you want us to try to restart it?" Or someone with emphysema could be asked, "Do you want to go on a breathing machine for the rest of your life?" Or the cancer patient would be asked, "When the time comes, do you want us to use technology to try and delay your death?" As if anyone could know when the time will come, and how the patient will feel about it then. And please note the phraseology: It's not save your life, but delay your death. Never underestimate the power of negative thinking.

Life-and-death decisions that once could be safely left to the common-sense wisdom of the doctor most familiar with the patient now can be boiled down to a standard form--and a standard, billable procedure. Welcome to this Brave New World where any mention of death is banished. Just call it end-of-life. Euphemism is the first sign that you don't want to look too closely at what is being proposed.

Like a zombie who was supposed to have disappeared at the end of the first act of this drama, Section 1233 now has been revived. Even though it's taken on the form of a regulation instead of legislation. Thanks to the convenience of modern bureaucracy, all that messy business of congressional hearings and votes and open debate can be avoided just by issuing a new rule. But don't noise it about. Its modest backers have tried to keep its resuscitation as quiet as possible.

To quote an e-mail sent out by the Hon. Earl Blumenauer, a congressman from Oregon and an enthusiastic backer of this stealth regulation, the new rule represents a "quiet victory." Or as he told supporters: "While we are very happy with the result, we won't be shouting it from the rooftops. ... The longer this goes unnoticed, the better our chances of keeping it."

The surest sign of a suspect political project is that it has to be adopted as quietly as possible. In this case, quiet as death.

So those celebrating this latest advance in society's pervasive culture of death are advised to sip their champagne without making much ado about it. No sense in alarming the rubes, who tend to have this irrational attachment to life.

Seshmeister
01-04-2011, 07:30 AM
I don't understand why would you not want to have a say in what happens to you rather than relying on the 'common sense' of whatever doctor you happen to have when you get into that situation.

Weird argument that's all about language. The non existent imaginary death panels were invented to sound scary yet now you are worried about losing the power of the real 'death panel' with just one guy on it?

Seshmeister
01-04-2011, 07:53 AM
With the disappearance of the old-time family doctor (and friend) in American medicine, the kind of physician who might be counted on to know a patient's condition, convictions, temperament and particular idiosyncrasies, we can now rely on experts to conduct these consultations. What a comfort. Kind of.


Haha I don't view my family doctor as an old family friend and actually I wouldn't want to have one of my friends as my family doctor. What if he felt sorry for your wife having to look after you? What if he wanted to fuck your wife? What if it was one of the weeks of the year when he was on vacation or off sick himself in any case? Or what if he was having problems himself? Family doctors have the highest suicide rate of any profession and substance abuse is rife.

http://www.newsweek.com/2008/04/19/doctors-who-kill-themselves.html

This is a typical dumb article which you see a lot especially in the right of the US media where they look back to a simpler kinder better 1950s style time that actually never existed at all.

FORD
01-04-2011, 11:19 AM
Death panels have always existed. They're also known as "insurance corporations".

VAiN
01-04-2011, 12:52 PM
Death panels have always existed. They're also known as "insurance corporations".

That's what gets me about this... Anything that I've read/heard sounds no different than what the insurance companies have been/are doing/will continue to do. I don't get it...

Hardrock69
01-04-2011, 02:16 PM
DIE EVERYBODY DIE!!!!

Hey, why not just create big nice suicide centers, where you can go lie down, listen to your favorite music, watch your favorite movie, in a room that is your favorite color, and drink some booze laced with poison.

Then, when nobody is watching, they will come and grab your body, dump it into a trash truck, and take it to a processing plant, where they will turn you into some little green crackers.

http://i56.tinypic.com/2wn0meq.jpg

knuckleboner
01-04-2011, 08:44 PM
fact: those who argue against the "death panels" are either a) ignorant, or b) deceptive. or, i guess they could be c) ignorantly deceptive. but nothing else.

Seshmeister
01-04-2011, 09:26 PM
Palin who invented the idea I think is (c).

In the real world though public healthcare systems have to set limits or at least ranges. This is because new drugs are being developed all the time for things like cancer and drug companies often

a) Charge a fuck of a lot for them
b) Don't publish results data of studies where the drug hasn't worked.

Over in the UK this has been dealt with by a body called NICE who would try to work out if the new drug or treatment was likely to lengthen and/or improve patients lives and set figures of numbers like $60k per year i.e. if a new procedure was only likely to lengthen peoples lives by 2 months then if it cost more than $10k it might not be adopted.

The really important thing to realise about all this is that it wasn't on a case by case basis it was just on the benefit of trying a new treatment for all patients. Secondly the rules aren't applied strictly but as a guideline. Every hospital has hopeless cases of people in intensive care for months costing hundreds of thousands who were unaffected by all this, it was just about super expensive new drugs and procedures.

The most stupid thing about all of this argument though is that in the very rare cases where you don't get some new unproven treatment paid for by the government, there is nothing at all stopping you from going private.

That is the essential part of the argument the politicians owned by US insurance companies cheated on with this bullshit.

There is no system in any industrialised democracy where you can't opt out and do your own thing. Many give tax breaks to people that do.

bueno bob
01-04-2011, 10:45 PM
Death panels have always existed. They're also known as "insurance corporations".

Seen that put into (in)action too many times to count...I look at the whole Death Panel argument the same way I look at the Birther argument, which is with a yawn and roll of my eyes. America sure got stupid awfully quickly. And now half of the country's proud of it.

Blaze
01-05-2011, 12:11 AM
DIE EVERYBODY DIE!!!!

Hey, why not just create big nice suicide centers, where you can go lie down, listen to your favorite music, watch your favorite movie, in a room that is your favorite color, and drink some booze laced with poison.

Then, when nobody is watching, they will come and grab your body, dump it into a trash truck, and take it to a processing plant, where they will turn you into some little green crackers.

http://i56.tinypic.com/2wn0meq.jpg

You are scaring me. :(
:biggrin:

VAiN
01-05-2011, 01:17 AM
The most stupid thing about all of this argument though is that in the very rare cases where you don't get some new unproven treatment paid for by the government, there is nothing at all stopping you from going private.

Right?? This is where I get lost.. They make it seem like it's the death panel or else..

Hardrock69
01-18-2011, 02:15 PM
Actually, the title of this thread is absolutely stupid.


"Return" of the Death Panels?

What the fuck do you mean "Return"????

The Death Panels never went away.

THEY ARE HERE RIGHT NOW!

They are called "INSURANCE COMPANIES".

They DO fulfill the function of a Death Panel. They decide who lives or who dies.

THEY DENY PATIENTS THE CARE THEY NEED IF THEY ARE POOR.

The Republicans have LOVED the Insurance Company Death Panels.

By limiting the amount of money spent on the poor, the insurance companies have protected their golden cash cow, protecting the profits and dividends paid to their stockholders, and also culling the human race of those who are seriously ill or close to death.

So all you fools who have been shrieking about "Death Panels" are as ignorant as they come.

The Death Panels have already been around for decades.

IF YOU REPUBLICAN DO NOT WANT "DEATH PANELS" TO EXIST, YOU MUST SUPPORT OBAMA'S HEALTHCARE PLAN AS IT ELIMINATES THE DENIAL OF COVERAGE FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS AND THE DENIAL OF COVERAGE OF THOSE WHO ARE TERMINALLY OR SERIOUSLY ILL BUT WHO HAVE PAID THE PREMIUMS FOR THEIR HEALTH INSURANCE POLICY ON TIME AND IN FULL!

IF YOU DO NOT WANT OBAMACARE TO EXIST, THIS MEANS YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF DEATH PANELS!!!

SO STOP YOUR WHINING!

Nitro Express
01-18-2011, 02:27 PM
DIE EVERYBODY DIE!!!!

Hey, why not just create big nice suicide centers, where you can go lie down, listen to your favorite music, watch your favorite movie, in a room that is your favorite color, and drink some booze laced with poison.

Then, when nobody is watching, they will come and grab your body, dump it into a trash truck, and take it to a processing plant, where they will turn you into some little green crackers.

http://i56.tinypic.com/2wn0meq.jpg

That's available now in Oregon. An out of work logger came down sick and needed a life saving operation. He had no insurance so what the hell, let's hit the state up for help because they help the illegal immigrants and prisoners. The state declined helping him but did inform him they would pay to euthanize him.

But just look at the shit we have been fed in the media over the years. Human life has intentionally been cheapened and propaganda has made human beings the scourge of the earth. I hear people all the time bitch and moan how over populated the world is and how we need to reduce it. Then you have abortion being sold like it's not big deal. It's almost like we are entering into the slippery slope Germany did in the 1930's where certain people or life didn't mean much for the greater good.

Personally I think the people who control most of the stock shares and sit on the boards of the large banks want to make the world the way they see fit. Replace Hitler with bankers or corporate types and you get the drift. They want to kill us off. More for them. Let the Chinese make everything, pollute their country. Keep enough educated specialists and get rid of the average people. Let the world go back to nature so they can enjoy it. India will be a wonderful vacation without those pesky billion people cluttering it up.

It's why we need to go back to being countries again instead of buying the international corporate line of shit. We need to go back to being communities instead of Wal-Mart fucked drones.

Nitro Express
01-18-2011, 02:34 PM
The mistake everyone made with Obamacare is they ran to the government thinking Obama had done away with the old Bush fascism and it would be a monopoly breaker. Not so. Obamacare will make certain politically connected insurance companies monopolies. Prices will go up under Obamacare and the mandates will bury already broke states. Your employer will just pay the $2000 fee and your will lose your insurance. Right after Obamacare was signed into law the price of medical equipment skyrocketed and Medicade services decreased. I'm not seeing any improvement and I can't wait until it fully kicks in. Those new 42 new agencies will be fun, like the FDA, EPA, and OSHA aren't fun enough already if you are a small business owner or farmer. Of course the big corporate farms never get a FDA visit if you are in good with the president.

In short. We were sold a bunch of shit. It's made a bad situation even worse.

Nitro Express
01-18-2011, 02:39 PM
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If these elites and politicians keep fucking us over there will be the death panels. French styled ones.

FORD
01-18-2011, 02:43 PM
Aside from the insurance corporations, the REAL death panels are in Batshit Brewer's Arizona. And no, I'm not talking about lunatic teabaggers with 30 round Glocks......

Patient Cut From Transplant List Dies: Arizona's Death Panel?

PHOENIX (CBS/AP) A second person cut from the transplant list has died in Arizona. The death "most likely" resulted from the state's refusal to pay for certain transplants, a hospital spokeswoman said Wednesday.

"His condition has gotten more severe since he was taken off the list," said University Medical Center spokeswoman Jo Marie Gellerman.

The patient's worsening condition would have elevated his place on the liver donor list, she added. But the point was moot.

The patient could not afford the transplant and Arizona refused to pay for it. Arizona reduced Medicaid coverage for transplants on Oct. 1 under cuts included to help close a shortfall in the state budget enacted last spring.

Gellerman said the patient died Dec. 28. He had hepatitis C. Medical privacy requirements prevented the release of any information about the patient.

This is the second death linked to Arizona's controversial cost cutting. Last November, the Associated Press and others told the story of Mark Price, a Phoenix-area man desperately in need of a bone-marrow transplant. He couldn't afford it and state's Medicaid program wasn't angling to pay for it.

After the press coverage, anonymous donors offered to pay for the transplant, but Price died from complications in preparation for the surgery.

"I don't want to get into any of the politics involved in it, but it backfired because now suddenly it looks as if Arizona is making decisions as to life or death of patients," said Dr. Rainer Gruessner, chair of the University of Arizona Surgery Department

He predicts that nearly 30 Arizonans will die this year because of the state's decision to cut certain transplants.
"Failure to restore this funding is a death sentence for people who have committed no crimes," he said.

The state hopes to save $1.4 million from the transplant cuts. Arizona faces a projected $1.4 billion shortfall in its next state budget.

There is a certain irony here.

During last year's federal battle over President Obama's health care legislation, some Republicans claimed his program promoted "death panels" which they seemed to suggest would involve government bureaucrats deciding who lives and who dies.

The health care bill did include language which paid doctors to offer end-of-life counseling. That was eventually removed.

Facing a tough budget situation, however, Arizona has instituted what critics say is much closer to these so-called "death panels" than anything that ever appeared in the federal government's health care legislation.

"Can this really be happening in the United States?" Forbes columnist Rick Ungar wrote. "I cannot help but be struck by the emptiness of the argument put forth by those who suggest that government need not look out for these people because charitable Americans will always step up and help in these circumstances."

"It's something that probably needs to be discussed," Gov. Brewer said of the difficult choices. "Evey body is concerned about it, as I am. The bottom line is ... that was one of those areas that we could cut and we moved forward on that."

Ninety-seven people remain on Arizona's Medicare transplant list. Their futures are uncertain.

Link (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20027668-10391704.html)

Nitro Express
01-18-2011, 02:57 PM
The states are broke and the Federal Government is headed to default. The Europeans are hitting the streets angry over 200% tuition increases and the Germans are tired of floating the European Union and want out of it. American's right now are still too passive and in denial still. Bush's TARP and Obama's stimulus hasn't worked. The Federal Reserve sloshing $14 trillion under the table is buying some time. Look at the DOW right now. For the average person, they are losing and inflation on food and fuel hasn't started to hit hard yet.

It's coming apart folks and the politicians have no solution other than to start more wars as a distraction or clamp down to try and quell civil unrest. They can't fix the economy and they know it.

FORD
01-18-2011, 03:30 PM
They could fix the economy easily with just three steps:

1) End the useless occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, and any other military actions in any country which is not a direct and actual threat to the United States. (Actual does not mean "as defined by PNAC or their bastard friends in the Likud party, or by the oil corporations")

2) Close ALL tax loopholes.

3) Roll back the tax "cuts" for tax dodging millionaires and billionaires to where they were before the BCE tax "cuts" of 1981, and reinstate the estate tax. Nobody has the right to live off of what their great great grandparents did, especially if they have contributed nothing of value to this planet, like the BCE. Or Paris Hilton.

Nitro Express
01-18-2011, 04:15 PM
They could fix the economy easily with just three steps:

1) End the useless occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, and any other military actions in any country which is not a direct and actual threat to the United States. (Actual does not mean "as defined by PNAC or their bastard friends in the Likud party, or by the oil corporations")

2) Close ALL tax loopholes.

3) Roll back the tax "cuts" for tax dodging millionaires and billionaires to where they were before the BCE tax "cuts" of 1981, and reinstate the estate tax. Nobody has the right to live off of what their great great grandparents did, especially if they have contributed nothing of value to this planet, like the BCE. Or Paris Hilton.

Dream on. Inflation is on it's way and the bailout money has been stolen. The country is divided and the wars go on.

Nitro Express
01-18-2011, 04:56 PM
End the useless occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, and any other military actions in any country which is not a direct and actual threat to the United States. (Actual does not mean "as defined by PNAC or their bastard friends in the Likud party, or by the oil corporations") I was hoping Obama would declare victory and pull out. He put more in. Not until we get a president who actually represents the people will these wars come to a stop.


Close ALL tax loopholes. How about getting rid of the federal income tax all together and go for a national value added tax? It's a fair tax because everyone will pay it and the rich buy more so they will pay more.


Roll back the tax "cuts" for tax dodging millionaires and billionaires to where they were before the BCE tax "cuts" of 1981, and reinstate the estate tax. Nobody has the right to live off of what their great great grandparents did, especially if they have contributed nothing of value to this planet, like the BCE. Or Paris Hilton. Hell yeah. Let's just not make wills anymore. Also, it will be great to see family farms and ranches get seized by the US government and given to corporations because people don't have a right to live off of what their parents and grandparents built.

Nitro Express
01-18-2011, 05:00 PM
At least in Chile you can still yell and scream at the old rich bastards and they seem to enjoy it.

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Blaze
01-18-2011, 11:35 PM
I was hoping Obama would declare victory and pull out. He put more in. Not until we get a president who actually represents the people will these wars come to a stop.

How about getting rid of the federal income tax all together and go for a national value added tax? It's a fair tax because everyone will pay it and the rich buy more so they will pay more.

Hell yeah. Let's just not make wills anymore. Also, it will be great to see family farms and ranches get seized by the US government and given to corporations because people don't have a right to live off of what their parents and grandparents built.

If God was with them, wouldn't they have no issue over-coming that tribulation?
Just saying~

Nitro Express
01-18-2011, 11:41 PM
If God was with them, wouldn't they have no issue over-coming that tribulation?
Just saying~

???????

Whatever you are smoking it's making you type weird.:biggrin:

Blaze
01-19-2011, 12:15 AM
Oh of course... we have never heard of lack-luster keyboards. ;D

Seshmeister
01-19-2011, 05:19 PM
The states are broke and the Federal Government is headed to default. The Europeans are hitting the streets angry over 200% tuition increases and the Germans are tired of floating the European Union and want out of it. American's right now are still too passive and in denial still. Bush's TARP and Obama's stimulus hasn't worked. The Federal Reserve sloshing $14 trillion under the table is buying some time. Look at the DOW right now. For the average person, they are losing and inflation on food and fuel hasn't started to hit hard yet.

It's coming apart folks and the politicians have no solution other than to start more wars as a distraction or clamp down to try and quell civil unrest. They can't fix the economy and they know it.

Yeah we're protesting about cuts in stuff you never and will never even have, even though your country is richer and pay virtually the same taxes.

You're being screwed.

Hardrock69
01-21-2011, 03:35 AM
Heh....tell us about it. We LIVE here. :(

Seshmeister
01-21-2011, 09:13 AM
I wouldn't mind so much if BBB was one of the 1% at the top of the US getting all the cream, then he would just be a selfish moral vacuum.

As he's much further down he's just a very silly person, a turkey campaigning on the internet for more Christmases.

Guitar Shark
01-21-2011, 03:33 PM
I wouldn't mind so much if BBB was one of the 1% at the top of the US getting all the cream, then he would just be a selfish moral vacuum.

As he's much further down he's just a very silly person, a turkey campaigning on the internet for more Christmases.

:lol: