Gun control + drugs

[Seshmeister]

Drug-Friendly Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime


Bruce Mirken
Opposing Views

For years prohibitionists, including our own Drug Enforcement Administration, have claimed — falsely — that the tolerant marijuana policies of the Netherlands have made that nation a nest of crime and drug abuse. They may have trouble wrapping their little brains around this:

The Dutch government is getting ready to close eight prisons because they don’t have enough criminals to fill them. Officials attribute the shortage of prisoners to a declining crime rate.

Just for fun, let’s compare the Netherlands to California. With a population of 16.6 million, the Dutch prison population is about 12,000. With its population of 36.7 million, California should have a bit more than double the Dutch prison population. California’s actual prison population is 171,000.

So, whose drug policies are keeping the streets safer?



http://vorige.nrc.nl/international/article2246821.ece/Netherlands_to_close_prisons_for_lack_of_criminals

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/01/drug-friendly-netherlands-to-close-8.html

[binnie]

Interesting stuff.

I have always been in favour of drugs being legalized and controlled - I think we need to accept the fact that there will ALWAYS be people who are (sadly) addicted to drugs, and work the problem from that perspective rather than assuming we can eradicate all drug use. If drugs were legal - and therefore considerably cheaper - users/addicts wouldn't have to commit crimes to fund their habits. Moreover, considerable sums of money would be out of the hands of organized criminals. More importantly, we could work towards treating people who want to get clean: a year of treatment is probably cheaper than a year in prison for the state (reports on this vary, in my experience.)

That being said, there is a problem with crude statistics like those quoted in the article. They assume all other things are equal. What we need to know concerns wider social patterns: do the Dutch have lower divorce rates, higher levels of two parent homes, and superior education systems? Those things must contribute in some way to the use of drugs and the pattern of crime. Legalization wouldn't solve all problems in American and English societies.

[ELVIS]

Gun control ??

[Seshmeister]

Gun control ??

Let me lead you gently to the information...



Netherlands

Dutch gun law is typical of the Western European approach. Firearm possession is not subject to any constitutional protections, but regulated simply in the Arms and Ammunition Act (Wet Wapens en Munitie). Weapons, including firearms, are divided into four categories, and for each of the categories a certain maximum punishment is set for "voorhanden hebben" (possession), and "dragen" (carrying in public).
Only citizens who are hunters, members of shooting sports clubs or legitimate collectors may obtain licenses for firearms. In the case of shooting club members they will get a license for category III weapons (a firearms category which includes all non- full automatic firearms up to .50 cal.). Possession is generally limited to 5 firearms per license. Collectors may obtain a license for any category of firearm, including full automatic arms, but stringent rules apply to achieving collector status. There is no limit to the number of firearms a collector may obtain. Generally the collector license does not cover shooting these weapons.
Sale/Use is only for those age 18 or over. There are a few dozen gunshops in the Netherlands. Gun ownership is extremely low with only three firearms per hundred people.

[Seshmeister]

That being said, there is a problem with crude statistics like those quoted in the article. They assume all other things are equal. What we need to know concerns wider social patterns: do the Dutch have lower divorce rates, higher levels of two parent homes, and superior education systems? Those things must contribute in some way to the use of drugs and the pattern of crime. Legalization wouldn't solve all problems in American and English societies.

Fair enough but when you get to a statistic of 15 times the prison population...

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/




Perhaps the single greatest force behind the growth of the prison population has been the national "war on drugs." The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges.


That 22% doesn't include all the turf war crimes caused by drug laws.

[ELVIS]

Drug prohibition is the real problem...

[Nitro Express]

Half our country jail is shut down due to a lack of crime and we have some the most liberal gun laws in the country.

[Seshmeister]

That's because no one lives there. :)

[ELVIS]

Cheney lives there...

[Mushroom]

what's not being stated is the fact that the US has a larger segment of society that is much more violent.

[ELVIS]

Why are we more violent, because of the things Rush Limbaugh says ??

[Jagermeister]

Why are we more violent, because of the things Rush Limbaugh says ??

:biggrin:

[ELVIS]

That's what we're being told!

[binnie]

Why are we more violent, because of the things Rush Limbaugh says ??


No, its because it's illegal for you guys to smoke pot :D

[Seshmeister]

Cheney lives there...

That's probably why most other people left. :)

[Seshmeister]

Why are we more violent, because of the things Rush Limbaugh says ??

Countries with the biggest gap between the rich and poor are the least happy and the most violent.

The UK is very violent but people tend to end up in the hospital rather than the morgue which is something I guess.

Most things I say on here applies to the UK too. It is the most like the US in Europe so we have the highest prison population, worst wealth distribution, highest teen pregnancies. Kind of US Lite in Europe for all the shitty stuff. :)

[FORD]

Cheney lives there...

Ironic isn't it? One of the worst criminals on the planet lives nearby, and nobody's in jail :(

[Seshmeister]

A bit misguided maybe but is Nitro really one of the worst criminals on the planet?

[ELVIS]

Wealth distribution...:rolleyes:

[Seshmeister]

Wealth distribution...:rolleyes:

If you think this graph is a good way to run a country then you are morally bankrupt.

If you or your friends and family are also in the bottom 80% then you are idiotic.


Net worth and financial wealth distribution in the U.S. in 2007

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee43/Seshmeister/Figure_1.gif



http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

[Seshmeister]

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee43/Seshmeister/fig2.png

[Jagermeister]

So if I am rich I am morally bankrupt and if I am poor I am an idiot.


Hmm. I think I agree with both those statments. SO what if I am somewhere in the middle? What am I then?

[FORD]

You were already a morally bankrupt idiot by being an admitted racist.

[Jagermeister]

You were already a morally bankrupt idiot by being an admitted racist.

Yeah and being an admitted liberal make you the same thing. :fufu:

[Seshmeister]

So if I am rich I am morally bankrupt and if I am poor I am an idiot.


Hmm. I think I agree with both those statments. SO what if I am somewhere in the middle? What am I then?

I meant if you thought it was good that the rich have all the money you were morally bankrupt. If you think it's good and you aren't one of the rich then you are an idiot. :biggrin:

[sadaist]

If you think this graph is a good way to run a country then you are morally bankrupt.

If you or your friends and family are also in the bottom 80% then you are idiotic.


Net worth and financial wealth distribution in the U.S. in 2007

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee43/Seshmeister/Figure_1.gif


http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html


How different would those pies be if you just completely remove the top 1% from the equation? Should they be included with the regular folks? They are an anomaly. You got your athletes, rock stars, top CEO's, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Steve Jobs, Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jackson, Mark Zuckerberg, Meg Whitman, Tiger Woods, etc.....

Always going to be those stories of people who become billionaires. They are a dream. Remove them out and I think the pie will look a bit more realistic as to what is really happening and what people are truly feeling.

[chefcraig]

So if I am rich I am morally bankrupt and if I am poor I am an idiot.

Hmmm, this means those of the middle class have moral integrity and are not quite stupid. Fuck that, I'd rather be smart, amoral and best of all, so rich that I don't even care. Show me the money!

[Jagermeister]

Hmmm, this means those of the middle class have moral integrity and are not quite stupid. Fuck that, I'd rather be smart, amoral and best of all, so rich that I don't even care. Show me the money!

:biggrin:

[Nitro Express]

Cheney lives there...

So does Sandra Bullock and Harrison Ford. Harrison Ford is on the volunteer search and rescue. Nice guy. He actually leaves some of his property open to the public.

[Seshmeister]

These people have about 10 houses each so don't kid yourself that they have anything more than an occasional holiday home. As a generality it's a place in the world for people who have problems dealing with other human beings.

Somewhere for people to foster their paranoias about the world...

[Nitro Express]

yeah, but who starts the redistribution of wealth program is the rich. They buy the socialist politicians and then set it up to where their corporations provide the service of the mandates. Then they run their competition out of business. Most people couldn't even name the world's richest people but a hint I will give you is they are major stock holders in energy companies and banks.

[Nitro Express]

These people have about 10 houses each so don't kid yourself that they have anything more than an occasional holiday home. As a generality it's a place in the world for people who have problems dealing with other human beings.

Who fucking cares, as long as you can be successful on your own. If they become abusive robber barons we can break up their monopolies with anti-trust legislation. I blame the average person. They got distracted by entertainment and beer while the rich took over the political system. If the people stay on top of it, the system can aways keep the rich in check.

[Seshmeister]

How different would those pies be if you just completely remove the top 1% from the equation? Should they be included with the regular folks? They are an anomaly. You got your athletes, rock stars, top CEO's, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Steve Jobs, Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jackson, Mark Zuckerberg, Meg Whitman, Tiger Woods, etc.....

Always going to be those stories of people who become billionaires. They are a dream. Remove them out and I think the pie will look a bit more realistic as to what is really happening and what people are truly feeling.

It's important to realise how fucking extreme the distribution is.

It's a fucking insane con. You get mindless people on here saying abolish income tax and use a sales tax as that would be fairer.

It's incredibly childish.

[Nitro Express]

These people have about 10 houses each so don't kid yourself that they have anything more than an occasional holiday home. As a generality it's a place in the world for people who have problems dealing with other human beings.

Somewhere for people to foster their paranoias about the world...

Jackson Hole is a tax shelter. They have multiple homes but keep their primary residence in Wyoming because we have no state income tax and other taxes are low. Why? We have oil, and some of the world's best low sulfur coal. We tax our exports. Plus, this area is one of the most beautiful places in the country. We would become the next Aspen if we had a bigger airport. Dick Cheney actually tried to use his muscle and get land from the US Forrest Service to expand the runway but he couldn't get it done. Fine with me, prices would shoot up and we would have those Aspen snobs over here.

[Seshmeister]

Who fucking cares, as long as you can be successful on your own. If they become abusive robber barons we can break up their monopolies with anti-trust legislation. I blame the average person. They got distracted by entertainment and beer while the rich took over the political system. If the people stay on top of it, the system can aways keep the rich in check.

You are now blaming the victim for the fucking crime.

'Stay on top of it?'

It's like someone saying 'Well if you spent every day with your grandmother then I wouldn't have been able to break into her house and rape and kill her. It's your fault not mine.'

[Nitro Express]

It's important to realise how fucking extreme the distribution is.

It's a fucking insane con. You get mindless people on here saying abolish income tax and use a sales tax as that would be fairer.

It's incredibly childish.

You are starting to sound like a radical Marxist that wants to make everyone equal. It has been tried, it didn't work. I knew a couple billionares growing up. Jack Simplot was a good friend of our family and Fortune had him pegged at $14 billion. He did a lot of good with his money and you wouldn't know he was a billionare if you met him. He passed away several years ago.

So not all the rich people are bad guys and JR let the kids sled down his huge front lawn and ride ice blocks down it in the summer.

[Seshmeister]

Jackson Hole is a tax shelter. They have multiple homes but keep their primary residence in Wyoming because we have no state income tax and other taxes are low. Why? We have oil, and some of the world's best low sulfur coal. We tax our exports. Plus, this area is one of the most beautiful places in the country. We would become the next Aspen if we had a bigger airport. Dick Cheney actually tried to use his muscle and get land from the US Forrest Service to expand the runway but he couldn't get it done. Fine with me, prices would shoot up and we would have those Aspen snobs over here.

Just saying that sometimes your rants as a Wyoming stockbroker remind me of being lectured on the radio by the childless rock star Dave Roth on parenting...

[Satan]

You are starting to sound like a radical Marxist that wants to make everyone equal. It has been tried, it didn't work. I knew a couple billionares growing up. Jack Simplot was a good friend of our family and Fortune had him pegged at $14 billion. He did a lot of good with his money and you wouldn't know he was a billionare if you met him. He passed away several years ago.

So not all the rich people are bad guys and JR let the kids sled down his huge front lawn and ride ice blocks down it in the summer.

JR Simplot sold potatoes. Aside from his complicity in kids getting fat from eating fast food (he's McDonalds' #1 french fry supplier) he's not exactly as evil as a "defense" contractor or a Wall Street criminal. Take my word for it, Hell is full of those assholes.

[Nitro Express]

You are now blaming the victim for the fucking crime.

'Stay on top of it?'

It's like someone saying 'Well if you spent every day with your grandmother then I wouldn't have been able to break into her house and rape and kill her. It's your fault not mine.'

Dude. The richest 1% has always owned the majority of the wealth of the world. You live in a country of Lords and Royals. Give me a break. Your redistribution of wealth idea has been tried in Russia, China, Vietnam, North Korea and its been a huge failure everywhere. Marxism is a scam as well. There is no perfect economic system because the world isn't perfect. Someone is always going to work harder, inherit more, get more lucky.

The world has already been down this road. In the US we have a constitution that protects the little guy. The problem is people ignored it and did away with the laws that would make a lot of this banking collusion impossible. In the past we have broken up monopolies Standard Oil being the most famous example. But our system of government doesn't work or protect the little guy if the little guy falls asleep so the American people are getting payback for their laziness. Sheep get sheered in this world.

[Seshmeister]

You are starting to sound like a radical Marxist that wants to make everyone equal. It has been tried, it didn't work. I knew a couple billionares growing up. Jack Simplot was a good friend of our family and Fortune had him pegged at $14 billion. He did a lot of good with his money and you wouldn't know he was a billionare if you met him. He passed away several years ago.

So not all the rich people are bad guys and JR let the kids sled down his huge front lawn and ride ice blocks down it in the summer.

I disagree I think most of them are cunts.

You know why?

Look at the charitable donations from these people, in most cases they are a fucking embarassing joke. If I was a billionaire I would give away 99%. Which of course is why I could never become a billionaire because you need to be a scum fuck cunt to be one.

Fucking Bill Gates of all people is just about the only one of these pricks that is even approaching a poor effort as opposed to the sick fuck approach of the average multimillionaire.

Anyone that can sit there with 100 million in the bank and happily ignore the misery of people around them is a cunt. JR let the kids sled down his fucking lawn? You are mentally fucking ill...

[Nitro Express]

JR Simplot sold potatoes. Aside from his complicity in kids getting fat from eating fast food (he's McDonalds' #1 french fry supplier) he's not exactly as evil as a "defense" contractor or a Wall Street criminal. Take my word for it, Hell is full of those assholes.

He made his fortune by coming up with the process to freeze dry potatoes which fed the allied troops in World War II. He was into all sorts of agricultural businesses and started Micron Electronics. He was a good guy who was always trying to make jobs for young people and he built a lot of affordable housing for young couple getting started in life. He donated a ton of money to hospitals and even had a fund that would help pay the hospital bills of people who couldn't afford it.

[Nitro Express]

Ok Shesh. You hate the rich no matter who they are. People like you are scary because so many Marxist dictators have come to power because of your line of thinking. To be honest, I wish I could waive a magic wand and make you worth $40 billion and sit back and see what you would actually do with it.

[Seshmeister]

Dude. The richest 1% has always owned the majority of the wealth of the world. You live in a country of Lords and Royals. Give me a break. Your redistribution of wealth idea has been tried in Russia, China, Vietnam, North Korea and its been a huge failure everywhere. Marxism is a scam as well. There is no perfect economic system because the world isn't perfect. Someone is always going to work harder, inherit more, get more lucky.

The world has already been down this road. In the US we have a constitution that protects the little guy.

Look at the fucking pie chart.

More Godwin shit with the commie thing, grow up that's not the argument. Look at the countries in Scandinavia who piss all over the UK and the US in every way. A fairer society can be done without having 1% at the top eating most of the pie and also without the Marxist shit.

[Seshmeister]

He made his fortune by coming up with the process to freeze dry potatoes which fed the allied troops in World War II.

A war profiteer.

It's nearly always either war or property development.

Makes you wonder if that's why we have so much war and bank bullshit...

[Seshmeister]

Ok Shesh. You hate the rich no matter who they are. People like you are scary because so many Marxist dictators have come to power because of your line of thinking.

I am rich.

I'm in the top 5% here which makes me insanely rich compared to the average person in the world.

Who am I scary to? The 80% of people scrabbling about trying to survive on the 7% of scraps from the table in the US?

[Seshmeister]

Ok Shesh. You hate the rich no matter who they are. People like you are scary because so many Marxist dictators have come to power because of your line of thinking. To be honest, I wish I could waive a magic wand and make you worth $40 billion and sit back and see what you would actually do with it.

I would carefully give away $39 990 000 000. To not do at least that would be utterly disgusting and obscene. It would also help prevent my kids becoming disastrous cunts.

[ace diamond]

So if I am rich I am morally bankrupt and if I am poor I am an idiot.


Hmm. I think I agree with both those statments. SO what if I am somewhere in the middle? What am I then?

You're Very Much Fucked From Both Ends...........
:poofters:

[binnie]

I would carefully give away $39 990 000 000. To not do at least that would be utterly disgusting and obscene. It would also help prevent my kids becoming disastrous cunts.

A little simplistic. When you read that someone is worth $40 Billion, it's not like that's all in cash. It is the value of their companies etc.

Consequently, were you to give away $39 Billion you may end up doing more harm than good by causing your companies - and the jobs there - to collapse. You would be robbing Peter to pay Paul.


As long as there is adequate help for those who need it - income support, help in old age, free schooling and health care - provided by society then I don't see the problem with someone being exceptionally wealthy. As it stands, I think the UK is a way from that. However, the really, really wealthy people I've encountered in life usually work insanely hard for their money: more fool them, in my opinion.

[Seshmeister]

If you were setting up Britain again just now would you keep it so that 0.3% of people still owned 69% of the land?

At the extremes it's fucked up and most of it is inherited.

[chefcraig]

I would carefully give away $39 990 000 000. To not do at least that would be utterly disgusting and obscene. It would also help prevent my kids becoming disastrous cunts.

I believe the answer Nitro was seeking would have been that you'd give away all of it. Smart move in keeping something to live on. :biggrin:

[Seshmeister]

The very rich are usually very greedy which is partly why they are very rich.

That's why they can't give it away. If you go through the list of the top 500 wealthiest people each year a few give away 3-4% and that's with all the tax breaks most give away less than 1%.

Fuck the very rich.

[binnie]

If you were setting up Britain again just now would you keep it so that 0.3% of people still owned 69% of the land?

At the extremes it's fucked up and most of it is inherited.

No. I'd ensure that I owned all of the land and charge everyone else shit-loads for using it. :D

The issues here is that we can't start from scratch. Yes the very wealthy inherit a lot of land/money - but does the state have the right to legislate and tell people what they can or cannot do with their money after death? if someone wants to makes their kids very wealthy because they can, isn't that just human nature?

[Seshmeister]

No. I'd ensure that I owned all of the land and charge everyone else shit-loads for using it. :D

The issues here is that we can't start from scratch. Yes the very wealthy inherit a lot of land/money - but does the state have the right to legislate and tell people what they can or cannot do with their money after death? if someone wants to makes their kids very wealthy because they can, isn't that just human nature?

Tax the fuckers.

A land tax of 1% per year would bring in £80 billion. That would pay for the whole NHS.

[binnie]

Mmmm.....

The problem there is that you are assuming that they could pay the tax without selling the land. Not all of these people are 'cash' rich - surely it is unfair to expect people to sell their land/property to pay a tax bill?

The problem here is that many people who are rich don't realize it. Where is the cut off. If the average wage in the UK is around £25K, does that mean someone who earns £50K is rich? It is double, after all. OK, so let's tax them. But if that person has three kids and a four bedroom house, then a lot of that income is absorbed and not spend on luxuries or sat in a bank account. So, do we expect them to buy a smaller house now that they can't cover the mortgate?

Perhaps you think £50K is too low. What about £100K. It's four times the average, but I'll bet most people who earn it are not that cash rich. They will have a big house that saps up most of that income in mortage payments. The same argument applies to people with acres and acres of land - on paper they are multi-millionaires, but they wouldn't suddenly have the cash to cover a tax hike without having to sell assets.

There is, of course, another aspect to this. If someone has been a straight A student at school, gotten great A Levels and degree and then some form of professional qualification and worked damn hard to secure a job of over £100K a year (for which they will rarely work a 40 hour week), aren't they entitled to their money? They already pay 40% income tax on most of that. So, why should they be taxed more than someone who is less skilled either by nature of by the fact that they just haven't worked as hard from the get-go?

Believe it or not Sesh, I vote Labour (execpt last time: I made the mistake of going Lib-Dem.) :D

[Seshmeister]

Believe it or not I'm not very left wing at all, even to the right on some stuff.

I'm only talking about the very rich, not even the £200k salary people.

I'm talking about the people that for example own London.

http://www.richest-people.co.uk/who-owns-london/

These fucking freeloaders just sit back whilst all the investment on infrastructure that makes their land so insanely valuable is made by the taxpayer.

Cash poor? Cry me a fucking river. Even if they were then they can sell 1% of their land every year or mortgage it.

Trust me the rich pay less tax than anyone. Even me with my little business pay 1/2 the tax now than when I was on a salary.

[binnie]

Trust me the rich pay less tax than anyone. Even me with my little business pay 1/2 the tax now than when I was on a salary.

By your own standards then shouldn't you give the difference to charity? :D (Or your local publican.)

I always enjoy chewing the fat with you Sesh :D

[Nitro Express]

The rich don't have a problem until the little people no longer have a job to go to and a beer to drink after work. The average person is pretty much content to go to a job, come home and drink a beer, watch some television, fuck the wife and go to bed. Most people don't want to work the hard long hours that are required to be successful beyond the middle class mark. If you have a happy middle class you have it made when you are rich but when you screw the people under you to the point where they get angry, you have problems. If these rich people were smart they wouldn't fuck with the middle class and let those people enjoy life, but that greed thing sets in. The end result is dead rich people, assholes filling the power vacuum and more dead people.

[ELVIS]

What about guns and drugs though...

[FORD]

What about guns and drugs though...

Which is the greater threat to society?

A Bong loaded with BC Bud or a Glock with a 30 round clip, loaded with hollow point bullets.

Any sane person could answer that question honestly, but which one is still illegal?

[ELVIS]

Which is the greater threat to society?

A Bong loaded with BC Bud or a Glock with a 30 round clip, loaded with hollow point bullets.



Neither...

[FORD]

Neither...

I think there's a few people in North Tucson who would argue that with you. Including 6 who no longer live in Tucson. Or anywhere else on this planet.

Somehow I doubt the results would have been the same if some whacked out teabagger went to Safeway with a loaded bong. http://th477.photobucket.com/albums/rr133/MANITOU57/MARIJUANA%20ANIMATIONS/th_ANIMATIONSMILEYBONGHIT.gif

[Seshmeister]

By your own standards then shouldn't you give the difference to charity? :D (Or your local publican.)



75% tax on a bottle of vodka, they get it in the end. :)

[ELVIS]

I think there's a few people in North Tucson who would argue that with you. Including 6 who no longer live in Tucson. Or anywhere else on this planet.

Somehow I doubt the results would have been the same if some whacked out teabagger went to Safeway with a loaded bong. http://th477.photobucket.com/albums/rr133/MANITOU57/MARIJUANA%20ANIMATIONS/th_ANIMATIONSMILEYBONGHIT.gif

And I will continue to argue my point of view...

[Seshmeister]

Well it's interesting to hear what the nut jobs are thinking. :)

[ELVIS]

I can crack you over the head with my ball pein hammer and kill you...

Should ball pein hammers be banned ??

[jacksmar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWi6IlmSO_o

[ELVIS]

Old clip...

[Satan]

I can crack you over the head with my ball pein hammer and kill you...

Should ball pein hammers be banned ??

You might get lucky enough to kill one person like that. But you sure as hell wouldn't mow down 20 people in a matter of seconds.

[ELVIS]

And nothing to do with this thread whatsoever...

[ELVIS]

You might get lucky enough to kill one person like that. But you sure as hell wouldn't mow down 20 people in a matter of seconds.

I can do that with a car...

[kwame k]

I can do that with a car...

Yes but......with a car, you have to take a written test, road test and be licensed. If you are caught violating certain laws you can have that "privilege" taken away! If you are mentally unstable you can't drive, period.

All I want is for the loopholes to be closed and enforce the laws that are on the books.........

BTW, I own a bunch of guns!

[ELVIS]

If you are mentally unstable you can't drive, period.



How is a law going to stop me if I'm crazy and I want to run over a bunch of people with a car ???

[Nitro Express]

I can do that with a car...

Rent a Ryder moving van and load it up with some weight and you can mow down more people than a car. Mass times velocity equals more carnage.

[Nitro Express]

I can do that with a car...

Rent a Ryder moving van and load it up with some weight and you can mow down more people than a car. Mass times velocity equals more carnage.

[Nitro Express]

Yes but......with a car, you have to take a written test, road test and be licensed. If you are caught violating certain laws you can have that "privilege" taken away! If you are mentally unstable you can't drive, period.

All I want is for the loopholes to be closed and enforce the laws that are on the books.........

BTW, I own a bunch of guns!

You can always steal a car or buy one on the black market. If you are going to do a mass killing, who gives a damn about the laws.

[kwame k]

How is a law going to stop me if I'm crazy and I want to run over a bunch of people with a car ???

The point is.......it's harder to get a driver's license than it is to own a gun!

Yes, people kill other people everyday in cars but how many mass killings and rampages do people do in cars?

[kwame k]

You can always steal a car or buy one on the black market. If you are going to do a mass killing, who gives a damn about the laws.

True, and if I really wanted to by uranium I could get that, too. Russia's got a ton of it for sale.

[ELVIS]

Doesn't matter but it has happened...

[kwame k]

So....you want to see mentally ill people have guns?

[ELVIS]

No, not at all...

[Nitro Express]

So....you want to see mentally ill people have guns?

No. But they can have sling shots.

[Nitro Express]

True, and if I really wanted to by uranium I could get that, too. Russia's got a ton of it for sale.

It would be fun to try and get some.

[kwame k]

No, not at all...

So WTF are you yapping about?

People kill people, not guns? Well yeah, it's an inanimate object but wouldn't it be worth while to make sure certain people can't get guns? Close the loopholes and enforce the laws on the books already? If it just saved one life wouldn't it be worth it.

Don't give me the BS about if you outlaw guns only criminals would have them because outright banning guns in this country will never happen. Didn't happen when all those idiots were freaking out about Clinton being in office and signing The Brady Bill into law.........hasn't happened now that Obama is in office.

Has he even brought up the point?

[kwame k]

It would be fun to try and get some.


I'll have to find that show I was watching about just how easy it is to get the stuff.......a fucking Russian taxi driver got some because a brother-in-law told him about a storage facility that had some in it. The grocery store was more secure than this place.....no guards and a cheap padlock was all that was protecting the stuff. This show spotlighted 10 or so people who actually got the stuff but got busted trying to sell it....scary shit there.

[ELVIS]

What are YOU yapping about ??

[Nitro Express]

Uranium is a natural element. My uncle use to mine it in Utah in the late 1950's.

[kwame k]

I think this is the one Countdown to Zero.........http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1810129587/info

[kwame k]

What are YOU yapping about ??

I asked first!

[kwame k]

Uranium is a natural element. My uncle use to mine it in Utah in the late 1950's.

Should of clarified.......... enriched weapons grade uranium.

[Blaze]

If weapons should not be controlled. I would like to place my order for 4 fighter jets, 3 submarines , 2 friggers, 10 heat seeking missiles, 3 nuclear bombs, 10 smart bombs.... :umm: Let me think some more, I am sure I will think of something else to add to that list. ;)

[Nitro Express]

Should of clarified.......... enriched weapons grade uranium.

Uranium 234. I forgot the amount you need but you can easily make a gun type bomb from it. In fact Little Boy that was dropped on hiroshima was a uranium bomb made from two plugs of U234. You put one plug in the end of a barrel and fire it with a gun powder charge into the other plug and that's it. Very simple.

[Nitro Express]

If weapons should not be controlled. I would like to place my order for 4 fighter jets, 3 submarines , 2 friggers, 10 heat seeking missiles, 3 nuclear bombs, 10 smart bombs.... :umm: Let me think some more, I am sure I will think of something else to add to that list. ;)

I hope you can afford the jet fuel and have a few good mechanics on hand.:biggrin:

[kwame k]

Uranium 234. I forgot the amount you need but you can easily make a gun type bomb from it. In fact Little Boy that was dropped on hiroshima was a uranium bomb made from two plugs of U234. You put one plug in the end of a barrel and fire it with a gun powder charge into the other plug and that's it. Very simple.

Which really brings up the point.......if it's so easy to get and making a dirty bomb is not all that hard why hasn't anyone done it?

[kwame k]

I hope you can afford the jet fuel and have a few good mechanics on hand.:biggrin:

Oh, she has killer meds on hand..........


















































































Sorry, read that wrong you said mechanics;)

[Nitro Express]

Which really brings up the point.......if it's so easy to get and making a dirty bomb is not all that hard why hasn't anyone done it?

I don't think these terrorist organizations are all that sophisticated. I read a book written by a Moroccan national that infiltrated the Afghan camps for the French intelligence and basically they were using old US military manuals that you can pick up at any surplus store. The media made 9/11 seem like a sophisticated job. It wasn't, you get some hot heads that already hate the US, use them as the muscle and then have a handful of real brainwashed guys fly the planes. Flying an airliner once it's in the air is not that big of a deal. They probably reset the autopilot and let the plane fly in and then took it over manually to hit the targets. The hardest thing about flying is landing and they didn't have to worry about that.

Most the bombs these guys have tried to use have been a joke. The Times Square incident and that shoe bomber. I don't know how difficult it is to get potassium nitrate but mix that with some diesel oil and attach a long fuse in a plastic tube and that will make one hell of an explosion. Mining companies use that instead of TNT because it's cheaper. Or good old pipe bombs full of nails. Those are devastating on crowds. Easy stuff to make.

Taking the power grid down would be very easy to do as well. There's no security around the substations and high tension wires.

Naw, the terrorists can do so many things that haven't happened which makes me think if it was really terrorists or a western cabal trying to give an excuse to clamp down on Europe, North America and seize assets in the middle east.

[Seshmeister]

Uranium 234. I forgot the amount you need but you can easily make a gun type bomb from it. In fact Little Boy that was dropped on hiroshima was a uranium bomb made from two plugs of U234. You put one plug in the end of a barrel and fire it with a gun powder charge into the other plug and that's it. Very simple.

No it's not.

[Seshmeister]

Which really brings up the point.......if it's so easy to get and making a dirty bomb is not all that hard why hasn't anyone done it?

Dirty bombs are a bit of a myth. If someone set one off in a city it would be a real pain in the ass but would probably cause no more deaths than from the conventional explosive in the bomb.