College classrooms replace stages for rock stars

[Blaze]

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By JOHN ROGERS, Associated Press – 28 mins ago

LOS ANGELES – They may fall off the pop charts, some might even lose the muse. But these days old rock stars need not worry about fading away, not when there's a college classroom nearby.

Rock's gangster of love himself, Steve Miller, created some buzz recently when he became an artist-in-residence at the prestigious University of Southern California's Thornton School of Music. But it turns out the guy who famously proclaimed, "I'm a joker, I'm a smoker, I'm a midnight toker" wasn't nearly the first guitar-slinger to move from the stage to the classroom.

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Mark Volman
In this Jan. 20, 2011 photo, Mark Volman teaches a class in music management at Belmont University in Nashville, Tenn. Volman, who was a founding member and manager of the music group The Turtles, is an assistant professor and the coordinator of the entertainment industry studies program at Belmont University . (AP Photo/Mark Humphrey)

Mark Volman, who co-founded the Turtles and later played with Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention, runs the entertainment studies department at Nashville's Belmont University these days when he isn't out on the road singing "Happy Together." Lamont Dozier, one third of the legendary songwriting team Holland-Dozier-Holland, which created hits for everyone from Phil Collins to the Supremes, lectures on his craft at USC. Around the country, everyone from punk rockers to doo-wop harmonizers are holding down teaching positions at big-name universities.

"It brings the subject matter to life for the students in a way that a professor, no matter how well intentioned, just can't do," Chris Sampson, dean of USC's music school, says of turning the classroom over to people like Miller. "It makes all the learning go beyond just theory."

Indeed, sometimes the learning even goes beyond music — way beyond music — though the musicians will tell you there's still a connection.
Greg Graffin, who has a Ph.d in science, for example, has taught evolution and paleontology at UCLA in recent years when he wasn't on the road with the seminal punk rock band Bad Religion.

"I know it sounds crazy, but from my perspective the goal is the same," he says of playing music and teaching science. "The thing about the band is we've always been about asking questions and provoking people to think. We never maintain that we have the answers, and that's very consistent with a scientific pursuit."

Meanwhile, Rob Leonard, whose over-the-top version of "Teen Angel" with Sha Na Na at Woodstock can still be found on YouTube, runs the forensic linguistics department at New York's Hofstra University. He reunited with the group last year for a concert at Hofstra marking the university's 75th year.
"I like to say I'm one of the very few people in the world who have worked with the FBI and the Grateful Dead," quips Leonard, who has trained FBI agents in how to analyze language for clues in solving crimes.

The musician, who also has a Ph.d, says he really got interested in linguistics after he asked his record label where all the money from one of Sha Na Na's tours had gone — because it hadn't gone to the group.

"They said, 'Read the contract,'" he laughed.

That's the message Volman, who began teaching full-time 14 years ago, says he tries to drive home to starry-eyed students every school year. There's more to succeeding in the music business, he says, than just being a great musician.

"People come in with this television idea that everybody is going to be the next Carrie Underwood," he says. "They don't understand how many nights you're not going to get paid what they said you would and how many nights you're not going to have a room to sleep in because the promoter didn't get it in the rider you signed."

And for those who may think the music business has evolved too much in recent years for a '60s- or '70s-era pop star to have any relevant advice for students, Volman notes "Happy Together" was downloaded approximately 90,000 times last year.

"And I make 79 cents out of the 99-cent download," he tells the students in his music business class. "It's a lot different than the artist who doesn't own his own music getting 9 cents. I tell them that and they say, 'I want to own my own music too.'"

Music publishing is also one of the areas Miller, who lectures at USC part-time as an adjunct professor because of music commitments, has focused on during his time there.

Volman, although he teaches and runs his department, also still finds time to go out on the road about 50 times a year with the Turtles. It's something that gives him stories to tell the students, as well as ideas for projects to assign involving booking tours.

He'd also like to see more veteran music pros cross over to the classroom, agreeing they bring more to the table in terms of real-life experience. The biggest thing holding most back from teaching full-time, he says, is the advanced degrees required by most universities. He didn't earn a master's degree himself until he was in his 50s.

But once those bridges are crossed, say the musicians who have done it, the rest of the transition isn't that hard.

"I don't feel a lot different between being up on stage at a punk concert and being at the podium in a lecture hall," says Graffin.

[Kristy]

Colleges would be better off if they hired Spinal Tap to teach this ridiculous core curriculum nonsense.

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Maybe they could resurrect Bon Scott?

[Blaze]

Which core curriculum?

[Blaze]

:umm: Spinal tap might have made CRJU1100 more interesting. :indifferent0020: ;)

[Nitro Express]

They have added so much core nonsense to college it now takes five years to get out in what used to take four years. I'm sorry but you should have the basics down by the time you graduate high school and by the time you hit college it's time to specialize. People go in wanting to take upper level chemistry, biology, and engineering classes to enhance their skills and learning so they can get a good job or learn more about something they are interested in and they waste half their time playing games in classes they don't need and have to pay for.

[Kristy]

Failed Musician Knowledge 101

"Ridin` down the highway
Goin` to a show
Stop in all the by-ways
Playin` rock `n` roll
Gettin` robbed
Gettin` stoned
Gettin` beat up
Broken boned
Gettin` had
Gettin` took
I tell you folks
It`s harder than it looks"

What Mr. Turtle is teaching is no different from the philosophy of Bon Scott...is it not?

Let's keep what's left of [our] education system in perspective here.

[chefcraig]

If you are taking a course in music business management, what is wrong with having guest speakers from that very business come in and offer the benefit of their experience in the trade? Mark Volman not only has been teaching for around 15 years, he also runs the music department and holds a Masters Degree as class valedictorian upon graduating from Loyola in 1997.

Granted, there are some spectacularly idiotic courses available for people, but the majority of these are not required as part of the core curriculum when pursuing a degree.

[Nitro Express]

Today class, we are going to study my one hit wonder from the late 60's. Since I no longer can make money in the music industry I have now decided to live off of your tuition money, tax money and government grants and claim I'm saving the world in the process.

[Nitro Express]

The college of rock and roll was Gazzaris, The Whiskey a Go Go, The Roxy, CBGB's, Max's Kansas City, The Troubador, and all the beer dives along the way. Roth explained it pretty good in his book.

If you want to play cello in an orchestra then Julliard is a good place to go.

[Blaze]

If one has taken the effort to earn a PhD, I have no issue taking my place as a student. Perhaps, God willing, one day I will have my PhD.
Generally, I have not had poor quality educators. Even the one's that chose a corrupt position in their classroom, I found knowledge or award.

One of my professors voted in the Grammy's. He was quite a rag, but it had nothing to do a perceived success or non-success.


I had to Google Bon Scott. Thanks for the Goggle, :lust:, nice shirt. ;)
I do not know his philosophy. I would like to read it, if you have a link.

[Kristy]

If you are taking a course in music business management, what is wrong with having guest speakers from that very business come in and offer the benefit of their experience in the trade? Mark Volman not only has been teaching for around 15 years, he also runs the music department and holds a Masters Degree as class valedictorian upon graduating from Loyola in 1997.

Because it dumbs down the system to the point of utter nonsense. That's why. How does Mr. Turtle's experience augur with the music biz of today? There are many out there with a Master's in something that don't have a clue as to what they are doing and of course, when I think of punk rock Mr. Turtle is the first that comes to mind.

[Kristy]

I had to Google Bon Scott. Thanks for the Goggle, :lust:, nice shirt. ;)
I do not know his philosophy. I would like to read it, if you have a link.

Just stick with your Taylor Swift recordings, Blaze. That alone will make your doctorate just.

[Nitro Express]

It's worse than basket weaving. At least baskets are functional, beautiful, and require skill to make. How many of us can actually make a basket but yet we make fun of it. :biggrin:

[Blaze]

Like it or not, music is a business. To forgo the knowledge in business is vain.

However, there will always be those sorts that use examples of high school and college dropouts as some sort of justification.

[Blaze]

Because it dumbs down the system to the point of utter nonsense. That's why. How does Mr. Turtle's experience augur with the music biz of today? There are many out there with a Master's in something that don't have a clue as to what they are doing and of course, when I think of punk rock Mr. Turtle is the first that comes to mind.

Where do you purpose (sp?) to acquire educators?

[Blaze]

I would love to stay and debate, but my morning started late.

Insert Hot for Teacher video here.
:hitch:

[chefcraig]

Because it dumbs down the system to the point of utter nonsense. That's why. How does Mr. Turtle's experience augur with the music biz of today? There are many out there with a Master's in something that don't have a clue as to what they are doing and of course, when I think of punk rock Mr. Turtle is the first that comes to mind.

OK, aside from your opinion of what is taking place, would you like to provide some solid evidence of what you are implying? It would seem the man is an assistant professor and the coordinator of an entertainment industry studies program, but you are saying he is unqualified as an instructor and his program is irrelevant to the current state of music affairs. So how's about showing how graduates of his studies fare, or their overall impressions of the course? Or are you saying the university itself is turning a blind eye to the "fact" that Volman is little more than a huckster, taking everyone for a ride with not only a worthless program, but an entire department?

[Kristy]

...but you are saying he is unqualified as an instructor and his program is irrelevant to the current state of music affairs. So how's about showing how graduates of his studies fare, or their overall impressions of the course? Or are you saying the university itself is turning a blind eye to the "fact" that Volman is little more than a huckster, taking everyone for a ride with not only a worthless program, but an entire department?

This is how you counter-argue, Chef, by putting words into my mouth? I never called Mr.Turtle a huckster. What I am implying is what he is teaching is nothing new or profound. So he doesn't make the full 99 cents for his download. Could it be the site who host his shitty music is providing that service for a fee; what about those who did the data entry for his music catalog, should they not be paid? When he going to get around to teaching this?

"That's the message Volman, who began teaching full-time 14 years ago, says he tries to drive home to starry-eyed students every school year. There's more to succeeding in the music business, he says, than just being a great musician."

So every one of his students is "starry-eyed" and Mr. Turtle is going to set them straight on the politics of the music biz? And tell me just how much success did Mr. Turtle have apart from a one-hit wonder? So he had a record in the pop charts - that makes him a teaching genius?

If students (starry-eyed or not) want to learn about the biz I say forgo Mr. Turtle and take some ethics and business courses and learn how to be just as shrewd as managers and producers who have ripped off everybody from Hendrix to Black Sabbath.

Personally, his course seems like a waste of time when one stops to consider the biz is a dead man walking. Nobody makes records anymore; downloading and marketing an image is where where the interest and therefore the money lays. Sitting there learning about FBI forensics when trying to figure out what percentage of song royalties I should receive is going to get one far in life. His course is a god damn joke.

[Nitro Express]

Like it or not, music is a business. To forgo the knowledge in business is vain.

However, there will always be those sorts that use examples of high school and college dropouts as some sort of justification.

I thought music was an art. Business is counting money. I could put a bunch of accountants on stage but I don't think that would sell too good.

[Nitro Express]

Dave Roth said he learned his first lesson about the music business when Bill Gazzari asked for his watch and then refused to give it back.

[Nitro Express]

Kind of hard to stretch this advice into a full semester.

[chefcraig]

This is how you counter-argue, Chef, by putting words into my mouth? I never called Mr.Turtle a huckster. What I am implying is what he is teaching is nothing new or profound.

Argue? You present the words to an AC/DC song as a comparison of what Volman is teaching, making it seem the man is unqualified as an instructor, yet I'm putting words in your mouth? How do you know his teaching isn't new or profound, and even if it isn't, why should this effect anything? The man has several years experience in the field, but for some odd reason you seem to be saying that since he had a relatively small (by your standard) amount of chart success, this somehow diminishes his knowledge of the business.


So he doesn't make the full 99 cents for his download. Could it be the site who host his shitty music is providing that service for a fee; what about those who did the data entry for his music catalog, should they not be paid? When he going to get around to teaching this?

How do you know that he doesn't teach this? Did you attend the class, or at least audit it?


So every one of his students is "starry-eyed" and Mr. Turtle is going to set them straight on the politics of the music biz? And tell me just how much success did Mr. Turtle have apart from a one-hit wonder? So he had a record in the pop charts - that makes him a teaching genius?

Talk about perception. The writer of the article used the term "starry-eyed", not Volman. And no, having a hit doesn't make anyone a genious, yet who here is attempting to imply that he is? In fact, the only one making an inference using that word is you, in order to demean the guy sarcastically.



If students (starry-eyed or not) want to learn about the biz I say forgo Mr. Turtle and take some ethics and business courses and learn how to be just as shrewd as managers and producers who have ripped off everybody from Hendrix to Black Sabbath.

Again, what do you know of the content of this class or course? Is it imaginable that Volman just may include this valuable information during the proceedings, or offers suggestions toward that end? Furthermore, wouldn't this be a part of the "There's more to succeeding in the music business, he says, than just being a great musician." statement that you completely dismissed earlier?



Personally, his course seems like a waste of time when one stops to consider the biz is a dead man walking. Nobody makes records anymore; downloading and marketing an image is where where the interest and therefore the money lays. Sitting there learning about FBI forensics when trying to figure out what percentage of song royalties I should receive is going to get one far in life. His course is a god damn joke.

So this is what it comes down to, your perception of the course, albeit one with little if any proof to back up that conviction. And just what on Earth does "Sitting there learning about FBI forensics when trying to figure out what percentage of song royalties I should receive is going to get one far in life." even mean to this discussion, and how does it prove the course is a joke? I'm not kidding when I say it seems sometimes you get so wrapped up in the idea of being pissed-off that you somehow manage to forget what it really is you were pissed-off about in the first place.

[Kristy]

Oh, I'm not "pissed-off" that is your perception.

[kwame k]

A little miffed than maybe?

[Nitro Express]

I think Kristy wants to make some turtle soup.:biggrin:

[Nitro Express]

Ok. We shit all over the turtles. Now let's crucify The Association.:biggrin:

[lesfunk]

No offense Kristy, but you do seem a little pissed off. ALWAYS.

[Nitro Express]

No offense Kristy, but you do seem a little pissed off. ALWAYS.

When a German iron cross says you are too pissed off, shit. That's saying something!

[Kristy]

Really!?

Maybe I'll enroll in a anger management course providing Mr. Turtle does not teach it.

[kwame k]

Well, admitting there's a problem is the first step in recovery:umm:

[PETE'S BROTHER]

Really!?

Maybe I'll enroll in a anger management course providing Mr. Turtle does not teach it.

perhaps a turtle could help :baaa:

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[Hardrock69]

Personally, his course seems like a waste of time when one stops to consider the biz is a dead man walking. Nobody makes records anymore; downloading and marketing an image is where where the interest and therefore the money lays.

It is not a waste of time. Perhaps "nobody makes 'records' anymore" according to you (which is not true, by the way), but regardless of the delivery method for the music and/or marketing, if you want to succeed in the entertainment industry you must arm yourself with knowledge to prevent yourself from being screwed.

A short course in contract law would be beneficial. Business Administration. And yes, Marketing.

Simply because we are now in the Information Age does not erase the tried and true concepts used in the business world. If you want to be in the entertainment world, there are all kinds of legalities and business deals that are involved, and Mr. Volman has been IN that business for over over 40 years.

Even if a guest lecturer showed up fucked up on heroin, and managed to just mumble a few sentences and then drooled on himself before falling off his chair, that would still demonstrate to the class what NOT to do as a rocker.

Those idiots that become junkies or acid-casualties are ripe to be raped even by their own management.

Garth Brooks is not some country hick who fell off a pickup truck in Nashville in front of a recording studio and made a hit record by accident.
Before he even recorded his first album he got a degree in Marketing from the University Of Oklahoma. He knew that it would help him, and it definitely did.

Sure you are entitled to your own opinion, Mistress Kristy, but Mr. Volman being where is will be beneficial to any student at Belmont who is majoring in Music Business.
Music Business courses are taught at at least 3 universities here in the Gnashville area. Belmont is one, MTSU in Murfreesboro is another, and Vanderbilt is the other.

Is is a valid curriculum, as there are many, many thousands of people who grow up wanting to be in the business somehow, and it is just as valid if nor moreso as writing a Phd thesis on Frisbee.

Just my 2 cents.

[Kristy]

So are you teaching a class on the subject Master Hardrock or is it strictly a on-line course? I would enroll even though you are wrong about the music industry. Afraid it has seen better days.

[Nitro Express]

So are you teaching a class on the subject Master Hardrock or is it strictly a on-line course? I would enroll even though you are wrong about the music industry. Afraid it has seen better days.

The thought of Lerch with a hardcock is quite terrifying. I can only imagine the sound he makes when he shoots a load. I bet he get's a hand job from Thing. :biggrin:

[Nitro Express]

Really!?

Maybe I'll enroll in a anger management course providing Mr. Turtle does not teach it.

What better way to diffuse anger than to throw your chair and desk at Mr. Turtle?

[Nitro Express]

You actually learn very little about business in business school. It's a lot of case studies on things that only CEO's deal with. The most valuable thing you learn there is accounting. Look at how many poorly ran businesses we have MBA's running. You actually learn business by running an actual business and in todays world it's more dynamic than ever. The traditional university is ran by bureaucrats and committees. It just doesn't move fast enough to keep up with reality. Universities are good at teaching languages that never change like mathematics, accounting, financial formulas, statistics, ect. They are wonderful for that slow unchanging stuff but horrible at the dynamic changing stuff.

[Nitro Express]

All careers have a portal. In business you are never a businessman until you are personally liable for a payroll. Until you know what it's like to have to write paychecks that don't bounce to employees depending on you, you really aren't a true business person. Most people think that money is just magically there.

[lesfunk]