1947 Roswell UFO Crash Blamed On Russians, Not Aliens - Stalin, Mengele Mentioned Too

[chefcraig]

Area 51 loses mystique for some after accusations of hoax

Area 51 was not the site of extraterrestrial landing, but rather a Russian hoax, says investigative journalist Annie Jacobsen.

Associated Press/CSM (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2011/0525/Area-51-loses-mystique-for-some-after-accusations-of-hoax)


The world famous Roswell "incident" was no UFO but rather a Russian spacecraft with "grotesque, child-size aviators" developed in human experiments by Nazi doctor and war criminal Josef Mengele, according to a theory floated by investigative journalist Annie Jacobsen.

Her book, "Area 51: An Uncensored History of America's Top Secret Military Base," is about the secretive Nevada base called Area 51. One chapter offers the new Roswell theory, citing an anonymous source who says Joseph Stalin recruited Mengele and sent the craft into U.S. air space in 1947 to spark public hysteria.

Like past theories, Jacobsen writes that the U.S. government was involved in a cover-up of the UFO report, which has spawned space alien legend and turned this southern New Mexico town into a tourist attraction.

Bill Lyne, who self-published a book called "Space Aliens from the Pentagon" in 1993, agrees that the Roswell incident was faked, but he thinks the hoax was perpetrated by the U.S. government — not the Russians.

"They're just saying what I've been saying all along, that it was a hoax," he told the Santa Fe New Mexican. "But that Mengele stuff is a bunch of hogwash because Mengele was recruited by the CIA (rather than the Russians), and he was actually brought to Albuquerque."

Clifford Clift of the Mutual UFO Network, or MUFON, in Greeley, Colo., said he has not seen Jacobsen's book but has read other articles that suggest the Roswell incident involved German technology.

"After researching the claim, I found little truth in this theory," he said. "It is a stretch. One of my concerns is if they wanted to create panic, why in New Mexico and not New York where there are more people to panic? I would suggest it is another conspiracy theory and, heavens, MUFON knows about conspiracy theories. They do sell books."

Jacobsen, a contributing editor the Los Angeles Times magazine, told NPR that said she knows people will be skeptical.

"But I absolutely believe the veracity of my source, and I believe it was important that I put his information out there because it is the tip of a very big iceberg," Jacobsen said.

Julie Schuster, executive director of the International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell, told the Albuquerque Journal she hasn't read the book. But any new theories fuel public interest, and that's terrific, she said.

"Every time something new comes out, it piques somebody's curiosity somewhere, and they come to Roswell, and they come to the museum," Schuster said.

[Nitro Express]

I always thought Roswell was something the government lost that they wanted to cover up. The whole UFO thing is great disinformation. I wonder how many people saw a stealth bomber or fighter and thought they had seen something from outer space. If you have ever seen a Stealth bomber flying around they do look like a UFO type thing and they make very little noise.

[Seshmeister]

What a crock.

At the time the Roswell wasn't a mystery at all the whole thing was invented much later.

[Nitro Express]

What a crock.

At the time the Roswell wasn't a mystery at all the whole thing was invented much later.

It was probably invented by the town of Roswell so people would flock there to buy T-Shirts, souvenirs, food, fuel, whores, and other bullshit the town makes it's money from. Oh. and space coke. You only see UFO's if you snort space coke.

[FORD]

A friend of mine who lives in Vegas had an interesting theory about Area 51. He told me that a plane makes two round trips every day from Las Vegas airport to Area 51. Obviously a plane would need to fly employees there and back, but would they really waste the fuel of flying back an empty plane every day?

His theory is that the real secret of Area 51 isn't aliens and spaceships at all, but some sort of mining operation (silver, gold, or ???) and they are flying that cargo back to Vegas on the supposedly "empty" planes.

I don't know what to think about all that, but I do know that if you even stop on the side of the road long enough to take a good look around in that part of the Nevada desert, you get immediate attention from the military.:war:

[Nitro Express]

When I worked at a national engineering lab they had a huge fleet of buses they would bus us in on. Area 51 uses 737 airplanes that leave from a private terminal at the Las Vegas airport. The US Navy ran one part of the facility I worked at and it was as secure and secret as Area 51. Nobody talked about what went on and they shot first and asked questions later. Several thousand people worked there and never talked about what went on. It was where the nuclear propulsion for naval vessels was developed and that''s all we knew and the brass had enough pull to get the Blue Angel's to appear at the local air show in the summer.

All I know about Area 51 is they keep expanding the runway and build more hangars. They have also expanded the runway at the Dugway proving grounds in Utah. An air strip has always been there but the larger runway starts all sorts of rumors.

[Nitro Express]

Everyone knows about Janet airways into Area 51. The size of the facility and the number of planes they have, thousands of people have to be working there.

:biggrin:

[ashstralia]

What a crock.

At the time the Roswell wasn't a mystery at all the whole thing was invented much later.

you were there then sesh? :)

[Nitro Express]

you were there then sesh? :)

If he was, Sesh is an old fuck.

[ashstralia]

One of my concerns is if they wanted to create panic, why in New Mexico and not New York where there are more people to panic? [/I]

that happened 64 years later.

[Seshmeister]

Aliens in Roswell

What was actually recovered from the Roswell desert in New Mexico in 1947?



Hang onto your tinfoil helmet, because today we're going to rocket into the history books and see for ourselves exactly what fell out of the sky in Roswell, New Mexico in 1947.

In July of that year, a balloon train came down on the Foster Ranch, 75 miles northwest of Roswell, New Mexico. Rancher "Mac" Brazel, who had been reading about flying saucers, reported it to the local Sheriff, who in turn reported a crashed flying saucer to a Major Jesse Marcel at Roswell Army Air Field, but not before the local press heard about it. The debris, totaling some five pounds of foil and aluminum and described in detail by Mac Brazel, was recovered by officials from Roswell Army Air Field. These balloon trains were long ultra low frequency antennas designed to detect Soviet nuclear tests, held aloft by a large number of balloons, and were known as Project Mogul. With Marcel's press release in hand, the Roswell Daily Record reported that a Flying Saucer was captured, and the following day, printed a correction that it was merely a weather balloon, along with an interview with Mac Brazel, who deeply regretted all the unwanted publicity generated by his misidentification.

It should be stressed that this was the end of the incident, and nothing further was said or done by anyone, until 1978 (that's 31 years in which nobody remembered or said anything), when the National Enquirer, on what must have been a slow news day, reported the original uncorrected news article from the Roswell Daily Record. UFO fans went nuts. Stanton Friedman, an obsessed UFO wacko, started interviewing everyone he could find who was still alive who had been connected with the incident and began constructing all sorts of elaborate conspiracies. These primarily centered around Major Marcel, who agreed that Friedman's assertion was possible — that the government was covering up an actual alien spacecraft.



Two years later in 1980, UFO proponents William Moore and Charles Berlitz published The Roswell Incident. There wasn't much new information in this book, it was essentially a collection of suppositions and interviews with a few people who were still alive, or their relatives. Even so, by this point, it's important to note that the story really had not grown beyond the question of what debris had actually been recovered from the Foster Ranch in 1947.

Upon the book's publication, the National Enquirer tracked down Marcel and published their own interview with him. This was all well and good, but since there still wasn't any new information or any evidence that Roswell was anything other than the Project Mogul balloon, things quieted down for a long time.

The story finally started to break open for real in 1989. The TV show Unsolved Mysteries devoted an episode to an imaginative "reconstruction" of what some of these authors had written. The national exposure of a TV show reached a man named Glenn Dennis, who was quite elderly by now but who had worked as a young mortician in Roswell in 1947, and had provided contract mortuary services to Roswell Army Air Field. Dennis contacted Stanton Friedman, and told him the story that was to become the basis for almost all modern UFO lore.



Virtually all popular details of the story of an alien crash at Roswell are based upon the personal recollections of Glenn Dennis. He hadn't thought about the subject for 42 years, until he saw the TV show. Suddenly he started putting two and two together, tying together bits and pieces of this and that from his memory, and with the help of Stanton Friedman, connected the dots and wove the fabric of modern Roswell mythology. Authors Schmitt and Randle published Friedman's interview in UFO Crash at Roswell, published in 1991. This was the point that all the best-known details were invented: the multiple crash sites, the alien bodies recovered, the child-sized coffins, aliens walking around the base, a red-haired colonel making death threats, and the disappearance of a nurse who knew too much. 1991, sports fans; not 1947.

What's worse is that Glenn Dennis' memory doesn't seem to handle dates very well. Air Force researchers have successfully been able to corroborate nearly all of Dennis' recollections, but what they found was that while nearly all the events he remembered did in fact happen, they happened over a span of 12 years; not around a single incident in 1947. Let us now go through a few of the most significant points from the pop history of the Roswell incident, one by one:

At his mortuary in Roswell, Dennis received a call asking him to give a ride to an airman injured in a traffic accident.

At the base, Dennis noticed an ambulance filled with wreckage that looked like the bottom of a blue canoe, guarded by MP's.
Dennis was ejected from the base by a big red-headed colonel who threatened him with death if he revealed anything of what he had seen.

Dennis tried to telephone a nurse that he knew, but was rebuffed by a head nurse nicknamed Slatts, and whose real name was Captain Wilson.

The next day, Dennis successfully met with his nurse friend, who was quite upset over an autopsy on three bodies which she described as black, mangled, and little.

Dennis learned of the inability of staff to perform an autopsy due to overpowering fumes from the bodies, which were then hastily moved.

All further efforts to reach the nurse were unsuccessful, he was told she was deceased, and Dennis never saw her again.

A creature with a huge head was seen walking into the base medical center "under its own power".

And now let's look at what each of these events really was, and why they couldn't possibly have all been part of something that happened in July 1947:


Dennis' trip to the base to deliver the injured airman is not likely to have happened in July of 1947, as the rank of airman did not exist until the United States Army Air Forces became the United States Air Force in September of 1947. Note that Roswell Army Air Field was renamed Walker Air Force Base at that time as well.

Dennis' description of the contents of an Air Force ambulance are consistent with its normal appearance, which includes two steel panels shaped like the bottom of a canoe and painted Air Force blue.

Only one tall captain or colonel with red hair was ever assigned to the base, and that was Col. Lee Ferrell, who began his service at the base in 1956. Dennis also remembered that the threatening colonel was accompanied by a black sergeant, which is also virtually impossible for 1947. The Air Force did not begin racial integration until 1949. Dennis was probably recalling some episode that happened in or after 1956, and keep in mind he was still stretching his memory over 30 years.

The head nurse, Captain Wilson, has been identified as Idabelle Miller, who later married and became Major Wilson. She did not begin her service there until 1956. "Slatts" was well known to be Lt. Col. Lucille Slattery, a different person, who also did not arrive at Roswell until after the Roswell Incident. In her case the timing was much closer, only one month afterward; but one month too late is still too late.

Dennis' nurse friend has been positively identified as Lt. Eileen Mae Fanton, who was in service there during the Roswell Incident. More on her in a moment.

In 1956, a KC-97G aircraft crashed, killing all 11 crewmen in an intense cabin fire. Most were missing limbs and were largely burned away, resulting in small, black, mangled corpses. Due to intense fumes from the fuel soaking the bodies, the procedure had to be hastily moved to a refrigerated unit at the commissary. Three of the bodies were autopsied at Dennis' mortuary in Roswell, which Dennis described as small, black, and mangled. It's entirely likely that Dennis' encounter with the angry redheaded colonel took place during this exceptionally emotional and difficult time for the small local Air Force community.

The reason Dennis ceased being able to reach Lt. Fanton was that she had been taken to Brooke General Hospital in Texas for emergency treatment of a pre-diagnosed medical condition which ultimately led to her medical retirement in 1955. This information was withheld from Dennis simply due to patient privacy laws.

The sighting of a creature with a huge head walking into the hospital is consistent with the injury of Captain Dan Fulgham in 1959, who was struck on the head by a balloon gondola. His forehead and face developed an extensive hematoma which swelled to quite a magnificent size. He said he didn't feel too bad, and actually hung out smoking a cigarette and walking around with a head the size of a beachball.

Now, obviously I have to leave a lot of details out since this is a 10-minute podcast and can't possibly address the billions of data points that the UFO proponents have thrown out there (if you remember my episode on logical fallacies, you'll recognize that technique as Proof by Verbosity). If you're truly interested in the actual explanation of some detail you've heard, download the Roswell Incident PDF report from the Air Force at af.mil, or get a copy of the free Roswell Report: Case Closed book by Captain James MacAndrew and published by the Air Force. These publications are not a desperate coverup by the Air Force, they were required by the General Accounting Office's official inquiry made to address the clamor of Freedom of Information Act demands from UFO proponents. They contain a tremendous amount of detail and are quite entertaining reading for anyone interested in Roswell or the Air Force's early history.

But about every year or two, someone else pops up with some new claim about what happened in 1947. Just this year, a Lieutenant Walter Haut died, leaving a written story about having been shown a crashed alien spacecraft, but he lacks credibility. The stories he told about his experience at Roswell grew and grew over the years. And, as the president of the International UFO Museum, he had a clear commercial interest in promoting these stories. Even less believable are the stories of Philip Corso, who co-authored a fictionalized retelling titled The Day After Roswell. Among Corso's claims are that lasers, Kevlar, fiber optics, and integrated circuits all came from the Roswell spacecraft. Since the true origins of all of these technologies are well established in the real world, even other UFO researchers discount most of Corso's fancy tales.

So when you look at a story like Roswell, look at it skeptically. One account is of mundane everyday activities, that are fully supported by hard evidence at every step; and the other version is wild, far out, and comes in many conflicting versions, none of which have any supporting evidence whatsoever. What does a responsibly skeptical process support?

Brian Dunning

© 2007 Skeptoid Media, Inc. Copyright information

References & Further Reading

Berlitz, Charles, Moore, William. The Roswell Incident. London: Granada, 1980. 1-176.

Muller, Richard. "Chapter 7." Physics for Future Presidents. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, 7 Sep. 2007. Web. 9 Nov. 2009. <http://muller.lbl.gov/teaching/Physics10/PffP_textbook/PffP-07-waves-5-27.htm>

Nickell, Joe. Real-life X-Files: investigating the paranormal. Lexington: University Press of Kentucky, 2001. 117-121.

Randle, Kevin D., Schmitt, Donald R. UFO Crash at Roswell. New York: Avon Books, 1991. 1-327.

Saler, Benson, Ziegler, Charles Albert, Moore, Charles B. UFO crash at Roswell: the genesis of a modern myth. Washington DC: Smithsonian, 1997. 1-193.

Weaver, Richard L. Col., McAndrew, James 1st Lt. "Roswell report: fact versus fiction in the New Mexico Desert." Air Force History Program. United States Air Force, 1 Jan. 1995. Web. 2 Nov. 2009. <http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/Annotations/roswellreport.htm>

Reference this article:
Dunning, Brian. "Aliens in Roswell." Skeptoid Podcast. Skeptoid Media, Inc., 18 Dec 2007. Web. 28 May 2011. <http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4079>

[ashstralia]

no, it was a crashed alien space-ship.:)

[Seshmeister]

I bet most people don't know it all started in the National Enquirer in 1978.

[chefcraig]

Possibly my favorite part of this fable is the so-called "Ramey Memo". Using current technology, some bozo has managed to decipher the writing on a piece of paper held by General Roger Ramey in a photograph taken at the time of the incident, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that aliens were recovered from the crashed UFO:


Roswell Proof (http://www.roswellproof.com/)

http://img1.imagehousing.com/56/245bae3e541ce1a7799cbcac7bf2192c.jpg (http://www.imagehousing.com/)

[Seshmeister]

Surely Roth fans should be dismissive of all alien sightings as that is the opposite of Sammy Hagar. :)

[ashstralia]

Surely Roth fans should be dismissive of all alien sightings as that is the opposite of Sammy Hagar. :)

what sesh said.

[chefcraig]

I don't have that much of an issue with folks that claim to have seen something out of the ordinary floating in the sky. Big deal, it's a given that many people (including myself) have seen something up there and had no frame of reference to relate it to. What drives me bat-shit is the percentage of people that attach some sort of weird significance to it, which usually winds up with them recounting stories that involve themselves as a variation on the Richard Dreyfuss character from Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Next thing you know, they are writing books and appearing on talk shows, magically creating a cottage industry from their "experience". What's even worse is the fact that there are people out there willing to buy into this sort of unsubstantiated baloney.

[Seshmeister]

I thought I saw a UFO once when I was a kid as did enough people to make the local newspaper.

Turned out it was an unusually low bright Venus.

As you say there is nothing wrong with wondering what something in the sky is, it's a different thing to claim an alien stuck a probe in your tequila addled ass hole.

[chefcraig]

It does make for some creative fiction, both good and bad. On the plus side, you get H. G. Wells' War Of The Worlds, Ray Bradbury's Martian Chronicles and a couple of episodes of the original Twilight Zone. On the negative side of things, you get just about everything else, which seem to have filtered down from the above mentioned examples.

[Seshmeister]

[FORD]

I thought I might have seen a UFO when I was a kid. Couldn't swear to it, didn't see any aliens, and nobody abducted me, downloaded my brain or probed my ass, but there was something with lights that didn't look like an airplane or a helicopter. Seem to remember the electricity blinking on and off while this was taking place too, and it wasn't during any bad weather.

Maybe it was aliens, maybe not, but if not, I'm not sure what it was. But I think it's ludicrous to believe that out of the billions of planets out there, only one has "intelligent life" on it. (and even the intelligence of the life on this planet is questionable some times) http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/figuren/n055.gif

[SilvioDante]

My dad was stationed at Walker AFB in Roswell between 1962 - 1966 and he told me he never saw or heard of any aliens. I believe the tourist attraction angle. I've been to Roswell. Outside the Goddard Museum there ain't nuthin' there. Walker closed a couple years after my dad go out then the place turned into a ghost town.

[Nitro Express]

We used to have sonic booms quite often when I was a kid and it would shake the house and rattle the dishes in the cupboards. You never saw the plane and it seemed to come from high above. Years later I learned it was the SR-71 coming out of Beale Air Force base topping up with from a tanker and going supersonic above Idaho after it's tanks were topped off.

[Nitro Express]

I always enjoy going out on a clear, moonless, winter night in the middle of the wilderness and looking at the stars. I imagine when you are on the dark side of the moon looking out into space the view must be fabulous.

I've never seen any aliens but it irritates the hell out of me when the room starts lighting up like the noon day sun and that fucking Moroni appears in our bedroom waking me up and depriving me of sleep. :biggrin:

[Seshmeister]

I always enjoy going out on a clear, moonless, winter night in the middle of the wilderness and looking at the stars. I imagine when you are on the dark side of the moon looking out into space the view must be fabulous.


You haven't done this? :)

[jero]

Sesh, seen the CL final yesterday?

[Seshmeister]

Yeah it was on in the background. I was surprised at how pissed off Ferguson was at the end.

[Seshmeister]

Jeez..


Around 400 million people around the world were expected to watch the game live, making it the biggest single sporting event in history.
Overall the final was worth a record £320m, according to a study commissioned by sponsors MasterCard.

[ashstralia]

i like laying back, looking at our milky way sprawling overhead in all of its majesty and making gravity disappear.. the realization that you're looking OUT.... not up. whoooaaa:smoke2:

[SunisinuS]

Everyone knows about Janet airways into Area 51. The size of the facility and the number of planes they have, thousands of people have to be working there.

:biggrin:

[Seshmeister]

i like laying back, looking at our milky way sprawling overhead in all of its majesty and making gravity disappear.. the realization that you're looking OUT.... not up. whoooaaa:smoke2:


The realisation you are looking back in time, double whoooaaa:smoke2:

[chefcraig]

The realisation you are looking back in time, double whoooaaa:smoke2:

Not so much that one, as just coming to terms with the physics of it all is far too overwhelming and sort of kills the buzz.

[clarathecarrot]

You are all actually looking at, right now in time, but the professors of brainiac that are dissproven every 20 years by the professors of brainiac in the future < (20 years in the future) want you to believe what they tell you so they can brainiac some more things.

I cannot expect you to believe in my theory because the hypothosis,.. I stated is not followed by a bunch of ,pud.. and s,p.e.d and doctoral p.h.d.'duh. and such.

I am however in posession of a A.S.S. from the university of the fabulous campus that overlooks 5 acres of beatifully stripes asphalt and the lighted rolling hill of parking lot lamps with a exit on two sides to further increase my belonging feeling and almamater alumni, the school fight song is much as described above and the brocure is a fold out 8 1/2 X 11 with three folds!!! campus beauty and suburban attitude.

I got that going for me in the big picture,... of things....

[Hardrock69]

i like laying back, looking at our milky way sprawling overhead in all of its majesty and making gravity disappear.. the realization that you're looking OUT.... not up. whoooaaa:smoke2:

Best time to see the center of the Milky Way here in the States is late August to October, with the center of it being in the constellation Sagittarius. Have not taken any time-exposures of it (that is on my agenda for later this year), but it is really something to see.


If you really want to get a sense of how insignificant we are, go to this forum at timescapes.org.
It is a forum where time-lapse photography enthusiasts post their videos (mostly hosted on vimeo.com), and a favorite subject is the night sky. As a result, there are a LOT of time-exposure videos of the Milky Way, as it it rotates in the sky....gives you a better sense of the movement of the Earth, and how huge our galaxy is:

http://timescapes.org/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=7&sid=b4fb18560e3365fa50a3dfde4a281471

Here is one for you Ashtralia, from Australia:

http://www.vimeo.com/16629447

Another from Uluru (Ayers Rock):


Go here for a large version of the above video

http://www.spacelapse.net/en/Milkyway_Timelapse_Videos/Uluru_Ayers_Rock.html
http://vimeo.com/15908598

Here is the thread for the above video at timescapes.org, which has some photos of the guy who made it showing his camera on a tripod in the Aussie Outback:

http://timescapes.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3227&hilit=Milky+Way


Here is a website devoted totally to time-lapse videos of space:

http://www.spacelapse.net/en/Magical_Milkyway_Timelapse_Videos.html?PHPSESSID=s q81vfj2dqf8hdfhhkoodj49g0

As for the book, that is as whacked out as my thread about what REALLY happened to JFK in Dealey Plaza in Dallas.

One other problem with that crazy theory is that the Roswell incident is only one of thousands where people have witnessed these little grey aliens with the big eyes. In fact, a majority of sightings of these creatures occurred long after Stalin was dead. Not only that, Josef Mengele's movements have been tracked after the fall of Nazi Germany and did not involve staying with the Russians if I recall correctly.

I call "Cash Grab" on this fucking book.

[Seshmeister]

Far too much street light here to see much of anything. That and clouds. :(

[Seshmeister]

One other problem with that crazy theory is that the Roswell incident is only one of thousands where people have witnessed these little grey aliens with the big eyes. In fact, a majority of sightings of these creatures occurred long after Stalin was dead. Not only that, Josef Mengele's movements have been tracked after the fall of Nazi Germany and did not involve staying with the Russians if I recall correctly.

I call "Cash Grab" on this fucking book.

It is funny that aliens didn't visit us in flying saucers until flying saucers appeared in 1950s B movies.

Of course maybe I'm wrong and Douglas Adams was right... :)


[Ford Prefect] I got stuck on the Earth longer than I meant. Went for a week, got stuck for 15 years. Telepsychic helmets. Huh-huh!

[Arthur Dent] But how did you get here in the first place?

[Ford Prefect] Easy. I got a lift with a teaser ... Hypno rays?

[Arthur Dent] Teasers?

[FP} Yeah, teasers are rich kids with nothing to do. They cruise around the Galaxy looking for planets that no one's made contact with yet and buzz them.

[Arthur Dent] Buzz them?

[FP} Yeah. They find some isolated spot, and land right by some unsuspecting soul that no one's ever going to believe, and strut up and down in front of them, making beep-beep noises. Rather childish, really.

[DONNIEP]

If aliens really had visited the Earth, wouldn't they have left something behind? I mean, other than Sammy Hagar's career?

[ashstralia]

that's brilliant, sesh. i think he was probably right about heaps of stuff. 'teasers' gold. 'babelfish'? oh yeah. mate, if you've never read 'chariots of the gods' by that von daniken fellow, you should. he describes the internet pretty perfectly on page 178. in 1968.

edit; the sheer numbers make it statistically impossible that earthlings are the only viable sentient life in the universe/multiverse. and the backwards time thing is very cool. the dudes 100 light years away are going to see us go from charlie chaplin to canihazcheezburger in one unbroken sequence. whoooooaaaaa.....

[Seshmeister]

Choose HD and full screen then smoke 'em if ya got 'em gentlemen...

[Hardrock69]

Right on Sesh! Oh and the notion that aliens have not visited here until the 1950s is sort of irrational, innit? I mean, you have ancient accounts of circles of fire flying in the sky (the prophet Ezekiel in the Bible), and lotsa other references to stuff that could be construed as spacecraft.

In ancient mythology in India, there are references to ships that flew through the air and stuff. Who's to say when Moses went up Mt. Sinai he didn't encounter some alien beings who brainwashed his ass?

[ashstralia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_astronauts

apart from being the most learned dudes in the universe, our forbears rocked.

[Seshmeister]

Space is really big.

Almost all the light we see from stars is older than Ezekiel.

In other words if your alien that Ezekiel saw lived at the centre of our galaxy and left back then in 500BC at the speed of light at this point he would only be 10% of the way home.

Anyway what makes Ezekiel a reliable witness to anything? Have you read that book - he's a total loon. :p

[Seshmeister]

It's possible but improbable there have been alien visits in recorded human history because recorded human history is such a tiny short amount of time so far in cosmic terms.

Stretch out your arm. Imagine that's the length of the history of the Earth. Now lightly take a nail file across your middle fingernail once, that's human history gone.

I'm skeptical of the Erich von Däniken people because they seem to do a hell of a lot of cherry picking of facts to suit their narratives.

All good fun I suppose.

[Seshmeister]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_astronauts

apart from being the most learned dudes in the universe, our forbears rocked.

Mine may have but yours were criminals. ;)

[Jagermeister]

I figure if I believe Van Halen is in the studio Aliens are not much more of a stretch.

[ashstralia]

ouch. my great great great slutty auntie stole your ancestor's pig. :biggrin:

that's a 6 billion to one shot, too.

[Hardrock69]

Space is really big.

Almost all the light we see from stars is older than Ezekiel.

In other words if your alien that Ezekiel saw lived at the centre of our galaxy and left back then in 500BC at the speed of light at this point he would only be 10% of the way home.

Anyway what makes Ezekiel a reliable witness to anything? Have you read that book - he's a total loon. :p

Totally agree. But keep in mind that our Universe is 13 billion years old (give or take a few hundred million). It only took 3 billion years for the Earth to form, and for the human race to evolve to where we are now.

So who is to say other civilizations did not rise up about 10 billion years ago? If they had the same learning curve as us humans, give them 10 million years or so, and they could probably travel wherever the fuck they wanted!

Not only that, even if they could only travel at the speed of light.....if they left their home world 2 billion years ago, they could easily have reached Earth by the 1950s, depending upon where they started from. :D

[ashstralia]

here's a cool vid where the earth rotation is more apparent.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1O66XsbrOA&feature=player_embedded

[Hardrock69]

Now THAT is a cool concept! Show the EARTH rotating, not the sky! Right on, Ash!

Kinda freaky.....

I am sure there are people out there who, for whatever reason, suddenly get confronted with just how huge the Universe is, and then go off the deep end and wind up in a rubber room with nice burly men in white coats. :(

[Seshmeister]

[ashstralia]

wow, cool sesh. wonder if we'll see some electro mag disturbances? and i agree hr... sometimes, in the right frame of mind, one can totally trip balls on the sheer magnitude of the universe...

[Seshmeister]

It is due to peak in 2013.

[Take 'Em]

Russians? Impossible. Everyone knows that the UFO Crash was caused by Michael Schenker, so it must have been the Germans!!!!!!!:biggrin:

[Hardrock69]

Man! That explosion on the sun was fucking massive!

Sure hope the sun does not decide to blow up, or we are all fucked.....

[Blaze]

Sure hope the sun does not decide to blow up, or we are all fucked.....
That is quite an understatement. Though I do agree, the sun blowing up would present some unique challenges. :biggrin:

[ashstralia]

the sun occasionally does a little 'sun fart'. a nice big cme is randomly unpredictable. how good is it that we can view it due to technology..

[Seshmeister]

Views from Cassini at Saturn

Credit: Images: Cassini Imaging Team, ISS, JPL, ESA, NASA; Video Compilation: Chris Abbas;
Music Credit & License: Ghosts I-IV (Nine Inch Nails)



CASSINI MISSION from Chris Abbas on Vimeo.



Explanation: What has the Cassini orbiter seen since arriving at Saturn? The above music video shows some of the highlights. In the first time-lapse sequence (00:07), a vertical line appears that is really Saturn's thin rings seen nearly edge-on. Soon some of Saturn's moon shoot past.

The next sequence (00:11) features Saturn's unusually wavy F-ring that is constrained by the two shepherd moons that are also continually perturbing it. Soon much of Saturn's extensive ring system flashes by, sometimes juxtaposed to the grandeur of the immense planet itself.

Cloud patterns on Titan (00:39) and Saturn (00:41) are highlighted. Clips from flyby's of several of Saturn's moon are then shown, including Phoebe, Mimas, Epimetheus, and Iapetus. In other sequences, moons of Saturn appear to pass each other as they orbit Saturn. Background star fields seen by Cassini are sometimes intruded upon by bright passing moons. The robotic Cassini spacecraft has been revolutionizing humanity's knowledge of Saturn and its moons since 2004.

[Hardrock69]

Fucking amazing......and there are probably civilizations in the universe with technology that would be viewed as "magic" by us.

[Seshmeister]

It's nuts that you can just about see the rings of Saturn with the naked eye 800 million miles away when they are just 30 feet thick!

[Seshmeister]

http://www.black-cat-studios.com/planetparks/Saturns_Rings.html

One: Lord of the Rings

http://www.black-cat-studios.com/planetparks/Saturns_Rings/IMAG003.JPG


There is nothing in the solar system quite like Saturn’s rings. They are not unique—Jupiter, Uranus and Neptune all have ring systems—but there is nothing to compare to their sheer magnificence and spectacle. The rings of the other planets are so dark and thin that they are invisible to even the most powerful telescopes—the existence of two of them was not even suspected until passing spacecraft photographed them. Saturn’s, on the other hand, are brilliant—the broad B ring is brighter even than the planet itself. This is because the rings of the other planets are made of dark rocky dust while Saturn’s rings are made of ice. And while the other planets’ rings are narrow bands as thin as smoke, Saturn’s are flat and wide, like a pizza or compact disk

The rings can be easily seen through even a small telescope. When the planet is at its maximum tilt toward or away from the Earth, the rings are a magnificent sight, appearing brilliant white against the pale yellow planet.

The rings are unbelievably vast. They cover an area of over 15 billion square miles (40 billion km 2 ), 80 times the total surface area of Earth. To travel from the inner edge of the rings to the outer edge, a space traveler would have to cover a distance equal to thirteen trips across the United States. Their full width from one side to the other is 70 percent that of the distance between Earth and the Moon. The thickness of the rings, however, rarely exceeds 33 feet (10 m). The rings are so thin that a sheet of paper the size of San Francisco would have the same proportions. If you were to make a model of the rings three feet (1 m) wide, it would have to be 10,000 times thinner than a razor blade.

The rings are divided into three distinct bands. The outer one, the A ring, and the broader, brighter B ring. Separating them is a narrow space called the Cassini Division (it only appears to be narrow because the rings are so large, the gap is actually large enough to drop the Earth’s Moon through!). Inside the B ring is the dim, translucent ring called the crêpe ring (or the C ring). Even before the advent of spacecraft, astronomers were aware of at least one additional very narrow outer ring and the Pioneer and Voyager probes discovered many more. There is now known to be at least seven distinct rings altogether. Additionally, Voyager found that the A and B rings were themselves made up of 500 to 1000 extremely narrow rings, like the grooves on an old-fashioned phonograph record.

The rings are made of billions of chunks of nearly pure water ice, something like the ice cubes you can buy in a bag at a convenience store. Some of the particles may be "dirty" or coated with dust. The ring particles are very small, ranging in size from grains of sugar to several feet. A few half mile- (kilometer-) sized bodies may also exist. If all of the material in the rings could be compressed into a ball, it would form a moon only 60 miles (100 km) across. Each ring particle is an individual moon and circles Saturn in its own orbit. It can be rightly said that Saturn is a planet with a billion moons.

There are many reasons for thinking that the rings are relatively young. One of these is how "clean" the ring particles are. The rings are so bright because the ice particles they are made of have not yet had time to be covered with dark dust. Another reason is that the gravitational effects of all of Saturn’s moons—the same forces that create the thousands of large and small gaps in the rings—make the rings unstable. They only look the way they do now because the moons haven’t had enough time yet to disrupt them. A few million years from now, however, the rings will start to fall in toward Saturn and the solar system will lose one of its greatest natural wonders.

[Nitro Express]

My brother passed away several years ago and he was into astronomy big time. We had to clean out his house right before Christmas and it was completely full of telescopes and equipment. We had no idea what to do with all of it so we gave it to the Mexican landscaper saying he could sell it and keep the money. We had a whole house to go through and only a few days to get things done. I have no idea what that stuff was worth but we didn't have the time to mess with it. Some of those telescopes were huge, you would have to pack them in the back of a truck. Anyways, one of the neighbors showed up wondering who we were and what was going on. It turned out he was a star gazing buddy on my brother and we had to tell him the bad news and then once he got over that he goes, what did you do with the telescopes? When we told him we gave them to Jose he didn't look too thrilled. We just told Jose anything we don't want you can have. The next day he had trucks full of Mexicans and my sister is fluent in Spanish. She was supervising the Mexicans and it was like watching a mass of worker ants carrying stuff out. We cleaned that house out in three days. All I know is the pawn shops around town probably ended up with some nice telescope equipment. Too bad the neighbor didn't show up sooner, we would have given it all to him or donated it to the astronomy club they were in.

[Seshmeister]

Not only that, even if they could only travel at the speed of light.....if they left their home world 2 billion years ago, they could easily have reached Earth by the 1950s, depending upon where they started from. :D

Even allowing for the fact that relativity theory means that time would virtually stop for the aliens travelling at the speed of light, it's a mind blowing concept that a creature could travel for that length of time just to stick a probe up Sammy Hagars asshole.

[Seshmeister]

When I passed through the rings of Saturn...

:biggrin:

[Hardrock69]

Ok, here is the latest dirt on SETI. Apparently we already HAVE received transmissions from outer space, and the government knows of this.

Proof?

A document posted at the website of the National Security Agency discusses the methodology used to translate the transmissions they received:

http://www.ufodigest.com/article/official-et-disclosure-nsa-document-admits-et-contact-kevin-w-smith

Here is a direct link to the NSA's webpage with the document in question:

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/ufo/key_to_et_messages.pdf

[Seshmeister]

Wow an amazing worldwide scoop of the most significant discovery of the last 100 years by...em...uh...ufodigest.com...??? :)

[Seshmeister]

Holy shit!

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51970000/jpg/_51970941_sunday_sport-1.jpg

[Hardrock69]

Hey, you think the mainstream media is going to report on UFO proof? Even when it is the NSA that provides it? :lmao:

Here is something else pretty interesting dealing with National Security concerns:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/20/idUS185480+20-Jun-2011+PRN20110620


Robert Hastings: Unidentified Aerial Object Sighted During October 2010 Nuclear Missile Incident
* Reuters is not responsible for the content in this press release.

Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:56pm EDT






TAOS, N.M., June 20, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- On October 23, 2010, F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Cheyenne, Wyoming temporarily lost the ability to communicate with 50 of its Minuteman III missiles. The five Missile Alert Facilities responsible for launching those ICBMs—Alpha through Echo, comprising the 319th Strategic Missile Squadron—would have been unable to do so during the period of the disruption.

This dramatic story was leaked to Mark Ambinder, a contributing editor at The Atlantic, which published it three days later. The U.S. Air Force then quickly acknowledged the problem, saying that a back-up launch system could have performed the task and claiming that the breakdown had lasted a mere 59 minutes.

However, the latter statement was untrue, according to two missile technicians stationed at F.E. Warren, who say that the communications issue, while intermittent, actually persisted over several hours.

Significantly, these same individuals report sightings by "numerous teams" of an enormous, cigar-shaped craft that maneuvered high above the missile field on the day of the disruption. The huge UFO appeared similar to a World War I German Zeppelin but had no passenger gondola or advertising on its hull, as would a commercial blimp.

The confidential Air Force sources also report that their squadron commander has warned witnesses not to talk to journalists or researchers about "the things they may or may not have seen" in the sky and has threatened severe penalties for anyone violating security. Consequently, these persons must remain anonymous at this time.

The disquieting information was provided to noted researcher and author Robert Hastings who, over the past seven months, has interviewed law enforcement and civilian eyewitnesses to ongoing UFO activity near F.E. Warren's ICBM sites between September 2010 and April 2011. Hastings has just published a detailed exposé on these developments titled, "Huge UFO Sighted Near Nuclear Missiles During October 2010 Launch System Disruption," which may be read at:

http://www.theufochronicles.com/2011/06/huge-ufo-sighted-near-nuclear-missiles_19.html

(The article can also be located at The UFO Chronicles homepage by placing its title in the Google "Site Search" box.)

The October 23rd missile incident occurred less than a month after Hastings' September 27, 2010 UFO-Nukes Connection press conference at the National Press Club in Washington D.C., during which seven U.S. Air Force veterans discussed UFO incursions at nuclear weapons sites during the Cold War era. CNN streamed that event live; a full-length video is at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jUU4Z8QdHI

According to the veterans, including two retired colonels, the still-classified incidents involved the sudden appearance of a mysterious aerial craft that briefly hovered over ICBM sites and sometimes disrupted the missiles' guidance and control systems; during one December 1980 case, a disc-shaped UFO sent down laser-like beams into a nukes storage depot.

The witnesses said that they felt compelled to speak out about the reality of UFO activity at nuclear weapons sites and urged the U.S. government to finally reveal the facts to the American people.

Regarding the recent situation at F.E. Warren AFB, Hastings emphasizes, "My sources have not said that the UFO sighted during the October 23, 2010 missile-communications disruption actually caused it. And it must be noted that the Air Force's Global Strike Command has officially attributed the problem to an improperly-replaced circuit card in a weapons-system processor."

He adds, "Nevertheless, the intermittent presence of a huge, cigar-shaped aerial craft during the hours-long—not minutes-long—crisis was definitely noted and remarked upon by various technical teams working in the base's missile field."

Hastings concludes, "The UFO sightings near F.E. Warren's missile sites in recent months—by Air Force personnel and civilians—represent the latest chapter in the UFO-Nukes Connection saga. Its well-documented history, as revealed in declassified U.S. government files and military eyewitness testimony, extends back to December 1948. Countless official denials about the reality of the situation have been issued over the years but, sooner or later, this amazing story will break wide open. What we need now is a courageous government whistleblower to come forward with the facts, and some daring journalists willing to treat the story seriously and write about it."

SOURCE Robert Hastings