Why is there no maximum wage?

[Blaze]

Two hypotheses for why US CEO pay is so high
https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/483322_459025824108401_606093886_n.jpg


Sources:
Location of topic origin - click here (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=459025824108401&set=a.115969958413991.17486.114517875225866&type=1)
Location of rebuttal origin - click here (http://www.realitybase.org/journal/2009/1/17/two-hypotheses-for-why-us-ceo-pay-is-so-high.html)



To me that seemed like a compelling, but daft question and one I had never considered. Surely, this had been hashed long before my chance encounter with the concept, so off to the Interwebs I went.

I rephrased the concept, if CEOs are obliged to their shareholders, then maximum amount of profit should go to the shareholders thus creating reins for CEO compensations. I Googled “ceo pay ratio” images. Surprising enough, it appeared that, at least in USAmerica, CEO wages seemed exploitative of the very companies they were entrusted with.

I continued, I Googled the direct question, “why is there no maximum wage”. Wikipedia had an entry. Upon reading the Wikipeadia entry on Maximum wage, it appeared as if this was conceptually limited to hourly employees.

In England, theStatute of Artificers 1563

American colonies in the 17th century

In the earlySoviet Union,

In 1942, duringWorld War II,

Swedenin the 1960s

and In professional sports.

During my primary research I chose realitybase.org as my starting point. I went back to realitybase.org to qualify the writer. Clearly he is knowledgeable enough to yield a good consultation reference:

Roger Chittum.
I have retired as a business executive and business lawyer.

My interest in energy issues stems from my tenure as an officer of an energy company, The Oil Shale Corporation (later Tosco Corporation and now part of Conoco Phillips), from 1972 to 1983. Those were thefun-filled years of the first post-war oil crisis and synfuels boom, ending with thedramatic crash of oil prices and refining margins in 1982.

My interest in free market fundamentalism, trade, globalization, and other economic issues was enhanced by my experience as an officer and director of a textile company, Crown Crafts, Inc., from 1992 to 2000. My job was one of the thousands of textile industry jobs shipped to China after a brief NAFTA-facilitated stopover in Mexico.

My interest in human rights and civil liberties stems from the Civil Rights Movement.

I graduated from the Stanford Law School, where I was an editor of the Law Review. Before that I was a National Merit Scholar at the College of Wooster where I majored in chemistry. I did graduate work in chemistry at Case Western Reserve and worked as a chemist at Sohio (now part of BP) before opting for law school.

I'm a voracious reader of public policy journals and blogs. My taste in books since retirement has run almost exclusively to non-fiction. I am reading political economy books from Adam Smith forward, about The Enlightenment and its influence on government in the United States, and about the history of the philosophy of science.

I live in Los Angeles, California.


The usual defense of high US CEO pay is that it is set by market forces. If that's true, doesn't that mean the US has a relative shortage of CEO talent compared to the other advanced countries? (A short supply of qualified candidates has driven up prices more in the US than in other countries.) On the other hand, if US CEO talent is relatively as abundant as in other countries, doesn't that mean the US CEO pay market has failed and should be fixed to eliminate inefficiencies?

Update on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 at 10:24AM bySkeptic

This post is meant to show that the US CEO pay market is probably broken. That doesn't mean I have any enthusiasm for government capping CEO pay. Why? Because I think excessive CEO pay is a symptom of a larger corporate governance problem, I don't want to be distracted by palliative care for a symptom. Let's get at the core problem, whatever it is.

Highlights mine.

What is the problem? Not only in CEO pay, but why the outlandish military expenditures? Are most of the military expenditures going to compensate conglomerate CEOs?

[chefcraig]

The reason there is no maximum wage is because the same faulty reasoning applies to certain people's prescribed medication. Just because the pharmacist takes the time to write out a careful dosage, it doesn't mean the patient isn't going to exceed it to the point of nonsense.


http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a150/redeyedleuc/7862Oh-God-I-Am-So-Totally-Wasted-P.jpg

[Satan]

There doesn't necessarily need to be a maximum wage law imposed. Just return to the Eisenhower era tax rate for everything above $1 million dollars, (close all the loopholes first) and the greedy fucks have the option to either be less greedy, or let the country share the benefits of their greed.

[Blaze]

http://reflow.scribd.com/69tqqyam813t0cw/images/image-3.jpg


II. Introduction: The Intersection BetweenExecutive Excess and Tax Dodging

III. Companies that Pay Their CEO Morethan Uncle Sam – 10 Examples


http://www.scribd.com/doc/63912410/Executive-Excess-CEO-Rewards-for-Tax-Dodging

[BigBadBrian]

The title of this thread is utterly stupid. This is a free-market capitalistic economy. You don't get a say about CEO salaries unless you're a shareholder. Buy some stock and then you can run your mouth, Blaze.

[gbranton]

Nobody complains about Tom Cruise, Leo DiCaprio, Denzel, Clooney, Adam Sandler, or Ben Stiller making the same or more money to make movies. Aren't these movie studios publicly held companies that have a responsibility to their shareholders? What about the people who run the studios and constantly turn out garbage based on tv shows, board games, comic books and other movies? Is the market for these assholes is broken?

[TJMKID]

I'm all for a free-market economy --- but something needs to be done about these greedy CEO assholes getting vastly overpaid for their performance (or lack thereof).

There's been an NFL salary cap for many years and I don't see the elite athletes retiring in protest because they aren't getting more $$$ from what the cap allows. The system works --- and it spreads the money around equitably. Even the lowliest rookie NFL player still makes close to a $1 million per year.

Gut feeling tells me Bill Gates still would've been a kick-ass CEO for Microsoft if someone capped his net worth at $500 million back in the 90's. Why does anyone need billions of dollars to make them good at their job?

CEO pay over a certain amount should be held in escrow pending outcome of their companies' performance. All the investment bank CEOs who gleefully underwrote those shitty subprime mortgages shoulda had their huge salaries refunded back to shareholders and then blacklisted from ever working on Wall Street again!

[gbranton]

I'm all for a free-market economy.........

.........and then you go on to explain why you are not.

[TJMKID]

.........and then you go on to explain why you are not.


NFL salary cap works as a free-market system. If you got talent --- you can make a lot of money --- but if you aren't happy then go to a different team. Everybody wins.

Same system should be implemented for CEO salaries.

[gbranton]

NFL salary cap works as a free-market system. If you got talent --- you can make a lot of money --- but if you aren't happy then go to a different team. Everybody wins.

Same system should be implemented for CEO salaries.

That's not a valid comparison, the NFL players are not running the company, making multi-million or billion dollar decisions. Trying to decide how far to lead a receiver is not the same thing and they don't deserve to be paid the same way.

[TJMKID]

That's not a valid comparison, the NFL players are not running the company, making multi-million or billion dollar decisions. Trying to decide how far to lead a receiver is not the same thing and they don't deserve to be paid the same way.


Like I already said --- there's a certain limit to how much value you place on someone's performance before you get diminishing returns.

If someone told Bill Gates in 1985 that he's doing a phenomenal job but he can only get paid max. $10 million/yr. for the rest of his career --- would he have quit if he knew his salary would be capped the same amount at any other software company in the world? Hell no --- he'd still put it long hours, make good decisions, and Microsoft's tremendous market cap would be equitably spread to employees and shareholders instead of Gates's piggy bank.

I don't buy into the bullshit that someone has unique talent that demands a "sky's the limit" salary to match. After a certain amt. of money --- you don't do any better at your job.

[Satan]

The most important job in the US (President) pays about $400K/year, last time a Devil checked.

Since nobody's job is more important than that, how can anybody justify getting paid more?

And if they do, why should they complain that they have to pay taxes accordingly?

[TJMKID]

The most important job in the US (President) pays about $400K/year, last time a Devil checked.

Since nobody's job is more important than that, how can anybody justify getting paid more?

And if they do, why should they complain that they have to pay taxes accordingly?


Last time I checked the U.S. Constitution --- the only requirements to become President is be at least 35 yrs. old and born in the United States. Absolutely no high school diploma required.

Based on that criteria --- $400K/year is way too much for someone who could be a high school dropout.

:amen:

[Satan]

Last time I checked the U.S. Constitution --- the only requirements to become President is be at least 35 yrs. old and born in the United States. Absolutely no high school diploma required.

Based on that criteria --- $400K/year is way too much for someone who could be a high school dropout.

:amen:

Yeah, but if you want to know what happens if you put an illiterate moron in the White House.... well just remember the last Fraudministration.

Yeah sure he went to Yale.... on a Skull & Bones legacy.

[TJMKID]

Yeah, but if you want to know what happens if you put an illiterate moron in the White House.... well just remember the last Fraudministration.

Yeah sure he went to Yale.... on a Skull & Bones legacy.


Quite scary to think there is no minimum IQ requirement to become President --- which is why more G.W. Bush's are bound to happen

[binnie]

I don't really see how a maximum wage could be enforced given tax loopholes and pension entitlements. That being said, I have no problem with CEOs etc earning stupid money - it's what they do with that money that concerns me.

I'd like to think should I be earning $10 million a year I'd be trying to do as much good with as possible. Wealth is fine and dandy; greed is repugnant.

[Seshmeister]

I'd like to think should I be earning $10 million a year I'd be trying to do as much good with as possible. Wealth is fine and dandy; greed is repugnant.

Almost everyone that earns $10 million a year doesn't feel like that which is why they ended up earning that much.

If you look at the rich lists with a couple of exceptions the most generous of the richest people give away sums like 3% a year.

[ashstralia]

The most important job in the US (President) pays about $400K/year, last time a Devil checked.

Since nobody's job is more important than that, how can anybody justify getting paid more?

And if they do, why should they complain that they have to pay taxes accordingly?

same in oz, 'zebub. the captain of the national cricket team gets 10x what the prime minister gets. mind you, she's a fucking lying conniving hypocrite, and his straight bat is suspect.

[binnie]

Almost everyone that earns $10 million a year doesn't feel like that which is why they ended up earning that much.

If you look at the rich lists with a couple of exceptions the most generous of the richest people give away sums like 3% a year.

Which is pretty shocking.

Maybe it is a lack of imagination on my part, but one you have a very nice house plus one or two holiday homes, cars + boat (if you're into that) and all the mod cons you can think of, what on earth do you do with your money? Does watching bank accounts/investments acrue another zero have the same sense of satisfaction that getting involved in the community would? I'd like to think not.

It seems that most stick their cash into housing and earn a fortune off the (shocking) rent. This obviously has harsh social problems (it puts up the welfare budget, and hinders people yet to get on the property ladder by a) taking supply out of the market and therefore inflating prices and b) hindering saving for a deposit because of the rents). I've spoken about this many times with people and most agree that they go that route if they won the lottery or something like that. Don't understand it myself. Personally, I think I'd like to buy up a load of homes and run them at cost as social housing - put in familes who need homes and who are bumped from place to place every couple of years (which is a shitty way to live). That way your money is safe, its doing good and you're not being a greedy twat. I honestly think I'd get more pleasure out of that than anything else.......

And that's before I've even thought about the charties/projects I'd like to be involved in.....

[ashstralia]

you're a fucking champion bloke, binnie.

i've got a mate who is ridiculously wealthy, his family is looked after for generations to come...
and he does exactly that housing model you mentioned. and it works well for everyone.

[ELVIS]

How 'bout just redistribute your own hard earned wealth to the lazy people ??

Everyone deserves the same amount, right ??


Sent from my iPhone, bitches!

[Angel]

It seems that most stick their cash into housing and earn a fortune off the (shocking) rent.

Ugh. That's what the people with $ here have been doing. "Investment properties". Rents have doubled, and in some cases tripled, in the 6 years I've been here. I can no longer afford a decent place on my own, so I'm stuck with room-mates (yuck!!)

Even then, I don't always have enough for food for the entire month. What's worse is that I have a brother who is a millionaire...he's never offered me a penny, didn't even offer to buy me a meal when we were at our high school reunion. I don't even talk to him anymore...we're not the same "class".

[ashstralia]

'if people would rather have nothing than something, the parliament is quite happy to give them nothing'.

malcolm turnbull. 9/7/12

that bloke would rock as our elected leader.

[Seshmeister]

How 'bout just redistribute your own hard earned wealth to the lazy people ??

Everyone deserves the same amount, right ??


Sent from my iPhone, bitches!

It's amusing but also a bit sad that you use the teachings of Jesus as sarcasm.

[binnie]

Everyone deserves the same amount, right ??



No-one has said that.

But surely if you - a Christian - became hugely wealthy you would be more than happy to contribute a significant proportion of that wealth to the well being of those less fortunate that you? Wouldn't that be a more rewarding use of your money than just seeing your investments grow?

No

[Seshmeister]

I think Elvis is one of the many people who has the broad definition of Christian as being someone who merely regularly sits in a church and takes part in some rituals.

This is entirely separate and detached from following the broad teachings of the Christ character in the story or it imparting any change to your morality or actions except as a useful excuse to absolve yourself of responsibility for them.

The thing that the Jesus character talks about in the book most is not where you stick your cock it's where you stick your money.

This is not convenient to many Christians so they just ignore it, or give away very small affordable amounts like everyone else.

[binnie]

I was using the 'catch more flies with honey....' approach Sesh.

[Seshmeister]

I'm less good at that on a Monday. :)

[ELVIS]

No-one has said that.

But surely if you - a Christian - became hugely wealthy you would be more than happy to contribute a significant proportion of that wealth to the well being of those less fortunate that you? Wouldn't that be a more rewarding use of your money than just seeing your investments grow?

No

Both would be equally rewarding and I agree with you...

I just think poor people would be better off if the government stopped "helping" them...


Sent from my iPhone, bitches!

[ELVIS]

And it's not where you stick your money...

It's the motive behind where you stick your money and everything you do...

God judges the heart, not the action...


Sent from my iPhone, bitches!

[Blaze]

God judges the heart, not the action...
You simply know that is not truth.
1 john 4:20
Matthew 7:21
http://flowingdata.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Victimless-Crime.gif

If I gave a poor man a song, but he was a masquerading rich man with many songs. No amount of retribution or good-will changes that moment when the rich man snared a charitable heart.

[ELVIS]

Prescription medication has clouded your sensorium...


Sent from my iPhone, bitches!

[binnie]

'I'm raping her with love in my heart God, don't judge me.....'

[ELVIS]

That's just a twisted mentality...

[binnie]

'Twisted Mentality' would be a great name for a metal band.

Actually its reducito ad absurdum (which would also be a great name for a metal band).

[Blaze]

That's just a twisted mentality...
So in your justified heart there are some limits where God judges your actions not your heart.


http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/8774371.jpg


http://trmchicago.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Dexter-Morgan-dexter-8264984-1024-768-300x225.jpg

:lever:

[ELVIS]

That makes no sense...


Sent from my iPhone, bitches!

[FORD]

Uh-oh.... only one person in the history of this board ever had a panda fetish.

Is Blaze Dutch, by chance?

[Nickdfresh]

Not unless Diamond Douche is in Georgia...

[jhale667]

Oh fuck, not that shit again...

[Blaze]

And it's not where you stick your money...
It's the motive behind where you stick your money and everything you do...
God judges the heart, not the action...
Sent from my iPhone, (Removed because it is exhibiting vanity and haughtiness. What in your heart justifies flagrant vanity?)


That makes no sense...


Sent from my iPhone,(Removed because it is exhibiting vanity and haughtiness. What in your heart justifies flagrant vanity?)

Take the "God judges the heart, not the action" belief of yours.

That is saying "The means justifies the ends".
The Panda meme I found examples with that belief the flood gates of justification are unleashed, such as in the case of the fictional character Dexter.
Do I dare second guess God, and only murder those who directly murder if my heart justifies it? Perhaps I should also murder those who indirectly murder. Perhaps I should murder those that have a predisposition to murder.
Let us lessen the severity of the sin. Let us say I am a policy maker. Do I also arrange to eliminate any one that speaks an un-peaceful statement? If so, I should spy to find those sorts.

Being of righteous spirit also includes actions of spirit. One cannot justify a sinful action for good will.

Or in other words...
Fighting corruption with corruption begets corruption.

[FORD]

Well, in the last season of Dexter, you saw Tom Hanks's son trying to justify murder in the name of God.

Didn't work out so well for him, did it?

[baru911]

We live in a free society that is based on capitalism. In capitalism you are free to seek better paying jobs if you feel you should be paid more than you are currently being paid. No one is holding you back except yourself if you are not seeking a better paying job or creating a better paying job for yourself if that is what you desire. I have no problem with any person doing that. A couple of examples:

1) A soldier with a specialized skill set can leave his/her branch of service when his/her hitch is up and gain employment with a security company like Triple Canopy or Blackwater. If you can the right skill set you can make over 6 figures very easily. So, a Sgt. who was making less than $30,000 quadruples his or her salary just by making a choice to leave their service and sign another contract with a security firm. Seems like a no brainer to me.
2) A person with a certain skill set can leave their current job and start their own company. Sure you risk almost everything to do it but if it pays off you reap the rewards/benefits. I know a Marine who started his own company making gun accessories. He risked his financial future on his dream but it paid off. He's a multi-millionaire now. Ever heard of the company Magpul?
3) A kid who is blessed with god given talent in a sport decides to work their butt off 8 to 12 hours a day for years to perfect their skill set. That kid wins 14 major tournaments by the time he's 32 and is being paid millions of dollars in endorsements.

It saddens me to see people pointing fingers at successful people and hating them because they get paid more than them. I look at them and think they worked harder than most people, they caught the right breaks in life, and put their god given talent in whatever to work. They deserve what they get paid - they worked hard to achieve what they made out of their lives.

[FORD]

The minute you suggested BlacKKKwater as a "career option", you pretty much outed yourself as a paid shill. (Of course having 911 in your username was a dead giveaway too)

Funny how your list of "career opportunities" left out "You can post right wing talking points on internet websites for minimum wage, like I do"

Fuck off, KKKochbot.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIuS2LCWNh8

[binnie]

We live in a free society that is based on capitalism. In capitalism you are free to seek better paying jobs if you feel you should be paid more than you are currently being paid. No one is holding you back except yourself if you are not seeking a better paying job or creating a better paying job for yourself if that is what you desire. I have no problem with any person doing that. A couple of examples:

1) A soldier with a specialized skill set can leave his/her branch of service when his/her hitch is up and gain employment with a security company like Triple Canopy or Blackwater. If you can the right skill set you can make over 6 figures very easily. So, a Sgt. who was making less than $30,000 quadruples his or her salary just by making a choice to leave their service and sign another contract with a security firm. Seems like a no brainer to me.
2) A person with a certain skill set can leave their current job and start their own company. Sure you risk almost everything to do it but if it pays off you reap the rewards/benefits. I know a Marine who started his own company making gun accessories. He risked his financial future on his dream but it paid off. He's a multi-millionaire now. Ever heard of the company Magpul?
3) A kid who is blessed with god given talent in a sport decides to work their butt off 8 to 12 hours a day for years to perfect their skill set. That kid wins 14 major tournaments by the time he's 32 and is being paid millions of dollars in endorsements.

It saddens me to see people pointing fingers at successful people and hating them because they get paid more than them. I look at them and think they worked harder than most people, they caught the right breaks in life, and put their god given talent in whatever to work. They deserve what they get paid - they worked hard to achieve what they made out of their lives.

Interesting points.

Would your opinion change if someone inherited their money? Never worked, never had to do anything, just born waiting to come into hundreds of millions?

Also, on the issue of sports, is it fair to pay someone millions and millions if it is ultimately the fans of the sport who have to pay for it (through higher ticket prices etc....)

(Like I said earlier, I have no problem with people earning lots of money. It's what people do with that money that sickens me).

[Seshmeister]

It saddens me to see people pointing fingers at successful people and hating them because they get paid more than them. I look at them and think they worked harder than most people, they caught the right breaks in life, and put their god given talent in whatever to work. They deserve what they get paid - they worked hard to achieve what they made out of their lives.

This is what a lot of people still think but the statistics do not back you up. The US has one of the least socially mobile populations in the Western world nowadays. You can work as hard as you like but the chances are that if you are born poor you will not die rich.

http://www.economist.com/node/15908469

Also as an aside to (1) do you think it's a good thing if you as a taxpayer spend millions of dollars training soldiers so that they can then leave the military, join a security/mercenary company which then charges you the taxpayer 10 times as much to provide the same guy you already trained just so the government can claim less military involvement?

[BigBadBrian]

What is most disturbing to me is half the workers in this country pay no Federal taxes or get a full refund!

People, if you don't pay Federal taxes or YOU get a full refund,YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!

[tbone888]

Most americans dont approach life the way their parents or people did just 20-30 years ago...lots are living way beyond their means. Spending huge amounts of money, monthly, on unnecessary things like 300 channel cable tv, super hi speed internet and smart phones with 4g internet access, dont lend themselves to saving any money. My parents were born in the middle of the great depression in 1 room houses with dirt floors, no running water and no electricity. Neither had anyting but HS educations and worked retail or tech jobs all their lives. They put 2 kids thru college without taking any loan of any kind. At age 50ish (with both kids out of college), they lived off one of their saleries and saved/invested the other. By their early 60's, they had amassed quite a lot of money. Life is full of decisions...living way beyond your means/and/or living week to week, usually never turns out well. Yes, saving money every week/month isnt fun...but its very possible in any economy. It all depends if you want to do it.

[Nickdfresh]

Most americans dont approach life the way their parents or people did just 20-30 years ago...lots are living way beyond their means. Spending huge amounts of money, monthly, on unnecessary things like 300 channel cable tv, super hi speed internet and smart phones with 4g internet access, dont lend themselves to saving any money. My parents were born in the middle of the great depression in 1 room houses with dirt floors, no running water and no electricity. Neither had anyting but HS educations and worked retail or tech jobs all their lives. They put 2 kids thru college without taking any loan of any kind. At age 50ish (with both kids out of college), they lived off one of their saleries and saved/invested the other. By their early 60's, they had amassed quite a lot of money. Life is full of decisions...living way beyond your means/and/or living week to week, usually never turns out well. Yes, saving money every week/month isnt fun...but its very possible in any economy. It all depends if you want to do it.

I'd agree more with your points if it wasn't completely clear that middle class wages have remained stagnant (at best) since the 1970s while CEO salaries have skyrocketed and the disparity between the haves-and-the-have-nots has increased steadily. Not to mention the trend of the last forty years of privatizing pensions via 401K's, reduction of benefits, etc, despite record corporate profits...

[Nickdfresh]

What is most disturbing to me is half the workers in this country pay no Federal taxes or get a full refund!

People, if you don't pay Federal taxes or YOU get a full refund,YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!

Yeah, if only we had less money from the lower-middle classes in the economy, that would solve everything!

[Seshmeister]

Here use my diagram, I won't look...


http://scotterb.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/gap-between-rich-and-poor.jpg

[jhale667]

What is most disturbing to me is half the workers in this country pay no Federal taxes or get a full refund!

People, if you don't pay Federal taxes or YOU get a full refund,YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!

How many times do you have to be reminded that you're quoting a bullshit talking point? 48% of workers DON'T MAKE ENOUGH to incur federal tax, you moron...so that "part of the problem" is that they're TOO POOR??

[Nickdfresh]

What is most disturbing to me is half the workers in this country pay no Federal taxes or get a full refund!

People, if you don't pay Federal taxes or YOU get a full refund,YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!

Thirty Companies Paid NO Income Tax (http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?63504-Thirty-companies-paid-no-income-tax-2008-2010-report&p=1570003)

[tbone888]

That's another problem with today's society...everyone worries about what someone has and they dont. That menatlity will drive you crazy. Worry about yourself....not about the neighbors new car and esp someone you dont even know on a yacht or in a penthouse. And, save save save...take it from me, it works.

oh, and btw, if your wages are stagnant, better yourself. Get an education. The days of escalating wages, pensions, etc, for basically non skilled labor, are gone.

[binnie]

Most americans dont approach life the way their parents or people did just 20-30 years ago...lots are living way beyond their means. Spending huge amounts of money, monthly, on unnecessary things like 300 channel cable tv, super hi speed internet and smart phones with 4g internet access, dont lend themselves to saving any money. My parents were born in the middle of the great depression in 1 room houses with dirt floors, no running water and no electricity. Neither had anyting but HS educations and worked retail or tech jobs all their lives. They put 2 kids thru college without taking any loan of any kind. At age 50ish (with both kids out of college), they lived off one of their saleries and saved/invested the other. By their early 60's, they had amassed quite a lot of money. Life is full of decisions...living way beyond your means/and/or living week to week, usually never turns out well. Yes, saving money every week/month isnt fun...but its very possible in any economy. It all depends if you want to do it.


There's a lot of truth here. The problem however is that in a modern western economy selling people shit they don't need it a big part of the market - people who work in sales sell things to other people who work in sales. Credit and things we don't really need are what sustain economies in an era where manufacture has moved elsewhere.

[FORD]

Most americans dont approach life the way their parents or people did just 20-30 years ago...lots are living way beyond their means. Spending huge amounts of money, monthly, on unnecessary things like 300 channel cable tv, super hi speed internet and smart phones with 4g internet access, dont lend themselves to saving any money.

OK, I'm with you on the 300 channels of cable TV. Especially during the summer months, when NOTHING is on, with the exception of the USA Channel, and maybe a couple shows on TNT or whatever.

But without either high speed internet or a 4G mobile connection, how the Hell would you get to this website?

Dial-up? Sorry... tried that from my technophobic parents' house. It ain't happening. (They don't use it for much other than e-mail, so it works for them, but even routine attachments are a pain in the ass.)

(Not to mention I need that broadband to download what little TV I watch without subscribing to 300 channels of bullshit) :biggrin:

[jhale667]

Seriously...how does anyone not living in a cave - or a VAN BY THE RIVER - function w/o internet access and a smart phone?

[DONNIEP]

Without the internet where would you get your pron??? Pay for it? No fuckin' way man...

[FORD]

Seriously...how does anyone not living in a cave - or a VAN BY THE RIVER - function w/o internet access and a smart phone?

Hell, even ELVIS has an IPhone, and he lives here.....

http://www.allowe.com/Humor/sightgags/images/RedneckHouseboat.jpg

[jhale667]

Without the internet where would you get your pron??? Pay for it? No fuckin' way man...


I mean, besides that...:biggrin: emails from/for work, gps to find places on the fly...

[WACF]

Seriously...how does anyone not living in a cave - or a VAN BY THE RIVER - function w/o internet access and a smart phone?

Well...we played outside and read books...always had a dime for a payphone.

Man have times changed....

[Angel]

Well...we played outside and read books...always had a dime for a payphone.

Man have times changed....

Yup, my son's was the last generation to do that...although it was two dimes or a quarter for the phone.

[FORD]

The neighborhood I grew up in was fairly rural at the time, so not a lot of pay phones around when I was out playing. But the rest of it pretty much applies, I guess.

[tbone888]

Most, if not all, public libraries have internet access. As far as smart phones go, unless you own a business, 99.9% of interactions on it arent smart at all. Its just bullshit like updating your wastebook page about some great shake you just had at starbucks. Im not advocating "living in a cave", but I dont have much sympathy for someone who's losing a house, they couldnt afford in the first place, because theyre living week to week and placing things like new cars, eating out and smart phones over their financial security.

[Satan]

So far, I've resisted the smartphone thing for one main reason..... My hands are too damn big to type reasonably on even a laptop keyboard, let alone a phone. But I did use a cellphone exclusively (no landline of any sort) for several years and if I went back to that, I'd probably take the plunge into some Iphone/Android/something or other.

Signal in Hell isn't the best either, so I'd probably have to throw up a few more towers in the mean time. It's not like radiation and brain cancer are factors down here, so why not?

[DONNIEP]

So far, I've resisted the smartphone thing for one main reason..... My hands are too damn big to type reasonably on even a laptop keyboard, let alone a phone. But I did use a cellphone exclusively (no landline of any sort) for several years and if I went back to that, I'd probably take the plunge into some Iphone/Android/something or other.

Signal in Hell isn't the best either, so I'd probably have to throw up a few more towers in the mean time. It's not like radiation and brain cancer are factors down here, so why not?

Take the plunge, Master! I resisted the whole "smartphone" thing until I finally realized my daughter's Android could do things that my semi-smart-phone could never do. I finally broke down and bought an iphone - the newest one out - and it can do everything but talk to God. Well, it may be able to talk to God but I don't have the app for that...but I'm sure it's out there! Although I'd really rather speak directly to You so that I can reserve my spot in Hell...not too hot, with central A/C, close to the bar and the cheap beer and cheap women...

[vandeleur]

Man I can't remember what people did before they had iPhones , wouldn't be without one now

[DONNIEP]

Man I can't remember what people did before they had iPhones , wouldn't be without one now

Dude, the only thing my iphone doesn't do that I wish it could is burn DVDs of bootleg Van Halen shows...

[vandeleur]

And that mine could watch them :D

[DONNIEP]

And that mine could watch them :D

Yo bro, did the DVDs work that I sent you?

[vandeleur]

The blast from Pasadena worked a treat ... Ain't seen the rest , am off work this weekend so plan on a bit of van marathon .

[DONNIEP]

The blast from Pasadena worked a treat ... Ain't seen the rest , am off work this weekend so plan on a bit of van marathon .

Kick Fucking Ass!!! I was worried they wouldn't work on your player. Now, this weekend, play the rest of those sumbitchen DVDs and kick back a coupla beers to go with 'em!! :biggrin:

[jhale667]

Well...we played outside and read books...always had a dime for a payphone.

Man have times changed....

We still do 2 out of 3 of that, y'know - except good luck finding a payphone... but what if you need to answer an email?? :biggrin:

[Blaze]

For 2 years I had a smart phone toggled. The Bone888 is nothing more than a shill.
Internet access is required in today's age. It is foolish not to have an internet access.

[DONNIEP]

We still do 2 out of 3 of that, y'know - except good luck finding a payphone... but what if you need to answer an email?? :biggrin:

You have a point there..but I find email to be about half as important as the daily Mighty Muff Thread updates :biggrin:

[Satan]

Kick Fucking Ass!!! I was worried they wouldn't work on your player. Now, this weekend, play the rest of those sumbitchen DVDs and kick back a coupla beers to go with 'em!! :biggrin:

Just in case you ever have a question of whether a DVD will be compatible, you might want to use DVD Shrink to burn it... It does quite a few things to help make a DVD, but one of the best features is the "region-free" thing. Doesn't matter if your source is NTSC, PAL, or whatever. You can burn it so it can be used in any DVD player all over Earth, and in Hell.

[WACF]

We still do 2 out of 3 of that, y'know - except good luck finding a payphone... but what if you need to answer an email?? :biggrin:

The funny thing is I remember waiting weeks for a letter.

Now it is damn near instant...and if you don't get a response you know they are ducking ya!

The only thing I really miss is when you took off camping you could avoid the inlaws....now they got ya at thier fingertips no matter how far away you are...

[DONNIEP]

The funny thing is I remember waiting weeks for a letter.

Now it is damn near instant...and if you don't get a response you know they are ducking ya!

The only thing I really miss is when you took off camping you could avoid the inlaws....now they got ya at thier fingertips no matter how far away you are...

I had a girlfriend I met when I lived in San Diego...last chick that sent me real letters. I miss that. Really, it was nice. Nowadays you can't even go to the Goddamned grocery store without somebody asking what you're doing, where you're at. Used to be that you'd be where you were and you'd be home when you got there...those days are over. Maybe for the good, maybe for the bad...who knows? As long as I can pull up the Roth Army I guess I don't care :biggrin:

[Blaze]

Managing a household without the internet is foolish, male or female.

[Blaze]

Letters are nice, but a luxury in today's world.

[WACF]

Managing a household without the internet is foolish, male or female.

Why?

I consider it a luxury...

[DONNIEP]

Why?

I consider it a luxury...

Because I can't figure out the math they're teaching 6th graders now without the internet...and I graduated with honors...

[Blaze]

Why?

I consider it a luxury...
It is not a luxury any more.
To shop thrifty, thus have a better household
to sell thrifty, thus have a better household

To educate our off spring and us,

The internet is no longer an option.

I cannot imagine how you can imagine how the internet is not a necessity ...

[DONNIEP]

This is what the internet was made for...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJxzCWMa1TA

[WACF]

It is not a luxury any more.
To shop thrifty, thus have a better household
to sell thrifty, thus have a better household

To educate our off spring and us,

The internet is no longer an option.

I cannot imagine how you can imagine how the internet is not a necessity ...

Garage sales...

School...be involved...there are alot of amazing educational shows on the boob tube now...my five year old is an expert on dinosaurs.

I have the internet...I use it...but if it fell apart tomorrow I guess I just remember how we used to do it.

We still figured out how to rebuild a motor and we got by quite well...I work with guys that do not have the internet...which I think is odd these days...but I get it.

Not everyone can afford it either...

[vandeleur]

Because I can't figure out the math they're teaching 6th graders now without the internet...and I graduated with honors...

Yes your honor , no your honor nice tie your honor ;-)

[DONNIEP]

But if the internet fell apart tomorrow...how would we share Van Halen bootlegs? I'm all for the zombie apocalypse...but living without sharing Van Halen boots??? Fuck that!

[DONNIEP]

Yes your honor , no your honor nice tie your honor ;-)

You alread spent more time in drivin' school than you did in high school!

[DONNIEP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35JYMFfEKf4

[DONNIEP]

And I did try the quadburger over at Irv's...they had no idea what I was talkin' about but they made me a quadburger
and drew me a nice little picture on my paper plate. If you've never been to Irv's you have to check it out...

[WACF]

But if the internet fell apart tomorrow...how would we share Van Halen bootlegs? I'm all for the zombie apocalypse...but living without sharing Van Halen boots??? Fuck that!

I hear ya.

The web has brought the music world to us in a very different way...

[DONNIEP]

I hear ya.

The web has brought the music world to us in a very different way...

For me it's still the same kinda thing as when I was in 8th grade and somebody had Hit Parader and we passed it around...When I burn a DVD for a brother or sister here at the Army it's the same feeling I used to get when I passed that magazine off to one of my buddies...

[binnie]

Quite happy to admit that I don't have an iphone/smartphone.

I hate cell phones - it's just another way for people to annoy me at their leisure.

[Nitro Express]

The iphone is too bulky and heavy. I probably would break the thing. I'm hard on cell phones. One time I left one in my cargo shorts leg pocket and washed the thing. It was not water proof. LOL!

[ashstralia]

it's an amazing bit of gear, nitro. i just show it the same respect i show all my valuables. :)

[baru911]

The minute you suggested BlacKKKwater as a "career option", you pretty much outed yourself as a paid shill. (Of course having 911 in your username was a dead giveaway too)

Funny how your list of "career opportunities" left out "You can post right wing talking points on internet websites for minimum wage, like I do"

Fuck off, KKKochbot.

911 is in my username and has been on a large number of boards for years. I used to live at a street address that had the numerals 911 when I first started posting on the internet years ago.

Right wing talking points? Dude, working harder than other people to get ahead isn't a right wing talking point. It should be your mantra. Work harder than your competition and you move forward during tough times. You don't sit around and whine about the hand life dealt you. Whining leads to quitting. In my life quitting hasn't been an option.

Whining about something doesn't change your reality. You have to go out and change it for the better. I have friends who have had their limbs blown off that don't whine about the the hand they have been dealt. They don't whine at all compared to many of the Americans I get to see on the news, on clips on the internet, or on message boards who have never faced any type of adversity but want society to "understand" it was their crappy childhood that caused their lot in life. Guess what? You can change your lot in life. Great example of that is the current President of the United States.

No idea how many of the people that post here have traveled and been to third world countries. If any of you had you would realize how easy life is here compared to life there. A day in many of those people's lives is truly about survival. It isn't sitting in a climate controlled house in front of a computer whining about the bullshit that politicians (no matter what party) feed us to keep us divided so they can stay in power.

Eating from the crap that Washington feeds you (again, no matter what party) to keep us divided as a population is pretty stupid. A divided population is a weaker population. It is a population that "the politicians/power brokers" can control.

Examples:

1) The crap both side throw out about abortion. Last time I checked it was legal. If it is legal why worry about it? It ain't gonna change no matter which side of that fence your views lie. Its there to keep people divided and distracted. Just like a magician the politicians use it as a flash-point to keep you distracted from what they are really doing.
2) The 2nd Amendment. Its in the Constitution. Not gonna change any time soon. Again, Just like a magician the politicians use it as a flash-point to keep you distracted from what they are really doing.

Dividing people is about power. Its how you obtain it and keep it. In the Middle East you divide through religion. In the US you find 3 or 4 talking points that poll a hard left or hard right. You feed it to your "followers" and guess what? They divide themselves and the power brokers/politicians get to stay in power.

Ummm, times are economically tough in the World right now. A really nice flash-point is to get people to talk about how much that person or this person is making. People get pissed, divide themselves, and the people that threw or use that "talking point" or some other "talking point" get to stay in power or capture more power. BTW, they will do NOTHING to change your day to day existence once you elect or reelect them. They don't give a shit about you, me, or most of the general population.

Lastly, calling me a name does nothing to strengthen your points. In reality it is a childish action that allows others to see how shallow your arguments are and what type of character you have within yourself.

[baru911]

Also as an aside to (1) do you think it's a good thing if you as a taxpayer spend millions of dollars training soldiers so that they can then leave the military, join a security/mercenary company which then charges you the taxpayer 10 times as much to provide the same guy you already trained just so the government can claim less military involvement?

The soldiers that have been trained through US taxpayer dollars have the option to leave once their hitch is up or they can stay within the unit and re-up. If they leave and go work anywhere else they still have been trained via taxpayer dollars. Most aircraft mechanics and pilots that work for the airlines learned their trade in the military - They get paid a lot more to more by the airlines than they do by the military. Its why they leave. Shouldn't everyone have to ability to weigh their options and move in the direct that is better for themselves and their families? Taxpayer dollars fund the airlines and your local airports to keep them flying (Not saying it is right nor am I saying it is wrong - It is our system).

Most guys who work for security outfits do security protection for US Department of State personnel or train the locals in the countries they pull a contracts in. It might surprise you to know that a large amount of those "contracts" are in Central and South America now. They aren't being paid to claim less US military involvement. The Special Operators Community within the US Military is stretched to the breaking point. There are too many theaters that the US is currently involved in to send an ODA team to Peru to train the locals. Those guys are way too busy at the tip of the spear to do that now-a-days. That's where older retired operators that work for security companies fill the gap within our system.

(I am NOT saying that I agree that the US should be tangled up in many of the theaters/countries it finds itself. Many of those places we shouldn't be in. However, it isn't the boots on the ground place to question why they are there. Their job is to have a high mission commitment level, finish the job at hand, get your team home safe, and move forward to the next one.)

[WACF]

For me it's still the same kinda thing as when I was in 8th grade and somebody had Hit Parader and we passed it around...When I burn a DVD for a brother or sister here at the Army it's the same feeling I used to get when I passed that magazine off to one of my buddies...

When we made it to the city I live in now we would just go to a record store...poke around...as a group each buy something different that someone from the store would recomend or something we read about in Hit Parader or Metal Edge.

Go to one of our houses and put it on...then proceed to record the LP so we all had a copy.

Or explore a buddie's big brother's record collection....that is how I first hear Women And Children First for the first time....talk about a defining moment....I could not get that sound out of my head.
Same goes for ealy Maiden and Judas Priest.

Now it is instant....very easy....and to a degree...not as rewarding.

[DONNIEP]

When we made it to the city I live in now we would just go to a record store...poke around...as a group each buy something different that someone from the store would recomend or something we read about in Hit Parader or Metal Edge.

Go to one of our houses and put it on...then proceed to record the LP so we all had a copy.

Or explore a buddie's big brother's record collection....that is how I first hear Women And Children First for the first time....talk about a defining moment....I could not get that sound out of my head.
Same goes for ealy Maiden and Judas Priest.

Now it is instant....very easy....and to a degree...not as rewarding.

Ah, the good old days. Back when you'd go to the record store and ask when a band's new record was coming out and they actually knew. Now, it's picking through the CDs at the local Best Buy or Walmart. Or, God forbid, downloading it onto your iphone. I miss Camelot and Record Bar. Spent a lot of time in those stores with my buddies...good times, good times.

[Nitro Express]

I liked the record stores when they were like head shops. They had the bins of the records and tapes, they had T-Shirts, and posters. Then the glass counter at the register was full of bongs and hash pipes. The place smelled like incense. It was always a stoner behind the counter but he knew his shit. He knew when things were coming out and what bands were coming to the nearest venues. You could spend hours there and the dude didn't care. The cost of going to see a show was about what an album would cost you. $8-10. The department stores had their record section but it didn't have the atmosphere. It was a good place to burn time as your mom spent hours trying on clothes upstairs. With my mom I dreaded shopping. It was going to take all day. I spent hours in the record section just because of that.

[Nitro Express]

The soldiers that have been trained through US taxpayer dollars have the option to leave once their hitch is up or they can stay within the unit and re-up. If they leave and go work anywhere else they still have been trained via taxpayer dollars. Most aircraft mechanics and pilots that work for the airlines learned their trade in the military - They get paid a lot more to more by the airlines than they do by the military. Its why they leave. Shouldn't everyone have to ability to weigh their options and move in the direct that is better for themselves and their families? Taxpayer dollars fund the airlines and your local airports to keep them flying (Not saying it is right nor am I saying it is wrong - It is our system).


(I am NOT saying that I agree that the US should be tangled up in many of the theaters/countries it finds itself. Many of those places we shouldn't be in. However, it isn't the boots on the ground place to question why they are there. Their job is to have a high mission commitment level, finish the job at hand, get your team home safe, and move forward to the next one.)

Most people join the military because it's a stepping stone to another career. My nephew went in to become a helicopter pilot but he was too good of a mechanic and ended up working on them. He flys them on his own time. I was going to go in if I could get a pilot's slot because I wanted to be a commercial airline pilot but couldn't pass the color blind test. My dad signed up to get the GI Bill. It's been that way since the end of World War II. The US military could save you a lot of money or open doors that were normally closed to you. That's not so much of a problem as the politicians misusing the military. Sometimes I think kids would be better off serving two manditory years in the military. Not to fight in some dumb war for oil but to get the discipline that they never got at home. I'm to the point I won't even bother to job interview anyone under 30 years old because the younger people have a discipline problem. Serving in the military would fix a lot of that attitude.

[Seshmeister]

It might surprise you to know that a large amount of those "contracts" are in Central and South America now. They aren't being paid to claim less US military involvement. The Special Operators Community within the US Military is stretched to the breaking point. There are too many theaters that the US is currently involved in to send an ODA team to Peru to train the locals. Those guys are way too busy at the tip of the spear to do that now-a-days. That's where older retired operators that work for security companies fill the gap within our system.


You should go and do some reading on the 'School of the Americas' one of the the most vile bits of US foreign policy ever...

[Seshmeister]

Most people join the military because it's a stepping stone to another career. My nephew went in to become a helicopter pilot but he was too good of a mechanic and ended up working on them. He flys them on his own time. I was going to go in if I could get a pilot's slot because I wanted to be a commercial airline pilot but couldn't pass the color blind test. My dad signed up to get the GI Bill. It's been that way since the end of World War II. The US military could save you a lot of money or open doors that were normally closed to you.

The pilots thing has been going on forever here too, no one objects to that in fact it was comforting back in the day to know that there was a good chance the guy flying your plane had been trained to deal with all sorts of shit in the military.

My complaint is the use of mercenaries that they have already trained by the US government which is an entirely different thing.

[Nitro Express]

My dentist practiced dentistry in the US Air Force. He went in after he got out of dental school and it paid for part of his education. He loved being a dentist in the Air Force because they provided the work space and equipment and he just had to show up and be a dentist. He would have stayed in but his wife and family hated living on the bases. Now he's running his own practice and has to run the business and hates it. He's made some horrible business decisions too. He's a great dentist but not much of a businessman.

I would say the mercenaries are a very very small group. Most people who serve in the US military are like that dentist. They want to be something but money is always the problem; especially now. In a way I sometimes think they are intentionally jacking the price of tuition to drive more people into the National Guard and military so they can be used as war fodder. Clearly the agenda now is to just have non stop war.

[DONNIEP]

I liked the record stores when they were like head shops. They had the bins of the records and tapes, they had T-Shirts, and posters. Then the glass counter at the register was full of bongs and hash pipes. The place smelled like incense. It was always a stoner behind the counter but he knew his shit. He knew when things were coming out and what bands were coming to the nearest venues. You could spend hours there and the dude didn't care. The cost of going to see a show was about what an album would cost you. $8-10.

I'm sitting here looking at my David Lee Roth ticket from '91. 21 bucks, 3rd row. Triple bill show and only 21 bucks...I don't have any of my other old tickets from other bands and shows in the 80s but I know they were way cheaper than that. And I don't care what anybody says about inflation - 15 or 20 bucks back then wasn't much money even to me and I was only making like 5 dollars an hour. It's hard to believe bands made any money off those tours back then...

[Seshmeister]

The argument is that they made money from albums then.

[Nitro Express]

After the fall of the Soviet Union we didn't need the big war machine. The thing is bankers make more money off of war than anything else and they just couldn't let it go. The US transformed from a manufacturing economy to a war economy due to being a major supplier for the allies during WWII and the cold war. Even our space program was a military operation. At least with the cold war beating the Russians on a technological standpoint in space generated some positive results. Chasing the boogie man in the middle east not so much.

[Nitro Express]

The argument is that they made money from albums then.

One problem is the venues have gotten more greedy. It used to be you just paid rent but now they want a percentage of the merchandise sales and ticket sales. I once owned some commercial real estate. If the property taxes went up or the utilities or insurance went up, I just had to tag that cost onto the next lease. The tenants would complain but in reality I wasn't making more money and sometimes less but I had to pass the cost on. Someone is making a bigger cut but the question is who. I think today there are more middle men getting their beaks wet.

[Seshmeister]

I would say the mercenaries are a very very small group.

No one seems to know but the Pentagon said it was over 30 000 in Iraq from Blackwater alone some people say it peaked at 100 000.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1599682,00.html

Even more recently they are still getting fucking massive contracts from Obama outsourcing the military.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20008238-10391695.html

[baru911]

The pilots thing has been going on forever here too, no one objects to that in fact it was comforting back in the day to know that there was a good chance the guy flying your plane had been trained to deal with all sorts of shit in the military.

My complaint is the use of mercenaries that they have already trained by the US government which is an entirely different thing.

Ummm, the people that you refer to as "mercenaries" are contractors. Generally, they are people who gained a specific skill set while in the military. Are they trained with our tax dollars? Sure, but a cook is trained by US tax dollars. They were trained to do a specific task while in the military before they left it. You know, on the job training. Do you draw a line between an EOD team leader who leaves the military and uses the skills he was taught on your local PD to disarm bombs and the team leader who leaves the military and works for a security firm? I do not see a difference between either except for the money one of them makes and the location they do it in. Both are using the on the job training skills they were taught to do the same thing after they leave the military. They render explosives harmless.

Believe it or not they are a large % of people employed by security firms that are in a support role. Also, the larger security firms employ pilots, and ground crews. Most contractors work security details for the Department of State, and a large number are training police departments. They are NOT on the front lines laying the hurt down on whomever the "bad guys" are in a specific theater. The firms serve a very specific role that the US government cannot do by itself any longer.

Just our of curiosity what do you think contractors do? If you think they are out engaging "targets" that is NOT the case.

[Nickdfresh]

Ummm, the people that you refer to as "mercenaries" are contractors.

That's called a euphemism. Contractors or not, whether they work for "security companies" or "war companies", they're still providing the same function as mercenaries have in the past...


Generally, they are people who gained a specific skill set while in the military. Are they trained with our tax dollars? Sure, but a cook is trained by US tax dollars. They were trained to do a specific task while in the military before they left it. You know, on the job training. Do you draw a line between an EOD team leader who leaves the military and uses the skills he was taught on your local PD to disarm bombs and the team leader who leaves the military and works for a security firm? I do not see a difference between either except for the money one of them makes and the location they do it in. Both are using the on the job training skills they were taught to do the same thing after they leave the military. They render explosives harmless.

Under the previous administration (read Rumsfeld), the U.S. military got away from training cooks and spent far much more money paying civilain "contractors" for that task in order to free up an all-volunteer and understrength military to invade other countries with a far higher level of political expedience...


Believe it or not they are a large % of people employed by security firms that are in a support role. Also, the larger security firms employ pilots, and ground crews. Most contractors work security details for the Department of State, and a large number are training police departments. They are NOT on the front lines laying the hurt down on whomever the "bad guys" are in a specific theater. The firms serve a very specific role that the US government cannot do by itself any longer.

Just our of curiosity what do you think contractors do? If you think they are out engaging "targets" that is NOT the case.

There are also a large number of cunts in 'security contractors' that act if they are gods on earth and can do whatever they want and actually undermine the mission of the military (in Iraq, for instance) of winning the hearts-and-minds leading to very public friction with organizations like the U.S. Marine Corp towards the end of the war...

[baru911]

That's called a euphemism. Contractors or not, whether they work for "security companies" or "war companies", they're still providing the same function as mercenaries have in the past...

Hey, thanks for the English lesson!


….Under the previous administration (read Rumsfeld), the U.S. military got away from training cooks and spent far much more money paying civilain "contractors" for that task in order to free up an all-volunteer and understrength military to invade other countries with a far higher level of political expedience...

You’re right there were no cooks within the US military during the previous administration. None. Fort Campbell had and has ZERO US military personnel acting as food service specialist (92G’s) on the base. What reality are you living in? If you were referring to the locals that worked in the fast food restaurants inside the green zone then I would agree that US personnel were not serving food there for a time. However, you do remember why the locals were removed from those jobs and contractors were brought in? Something about troop safety concerns…Wow!


….There are also a large number of cunts in 'security contractors' that act if they are gods on earth and can do whatever they want and actually undermine the mission of the military (in Iraq, for instance) of winning the hearts-and-minds leading to very public friction with organizations like the U.S. Marine Corp towards the end of the war...

There are a large number of difficult people in every day life that act as if they are gods. Most politicians would fit into that category if you asked me. Winning the hearts-and-minds of the people didn’t end the conflict in Iraq. Paying people off and remembering that violence solves problems did. Also, hammering the people coming over the Iraq-Iran border caused a lot of the insurgency to lose its steam.

[Blaze]

blather.
Not only the support service being outsourced to civies, but also contracts are being awarded in questionable retirement packages to generals that then funnel the money straight out of the country. I know this because I have busted such.

[Nitro Express]

No one seems to know but the Pentagon said it was over 30 000 in Iraq from Blackwater alone some people say it peaked at 100 000.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1599682,00.html

Even more recently they are still getting fucking massive contracts from Obama outsourcing the military.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20008238-10391695.html

Yeah it's quite maddening. A lot of people hoped Obama would stop the neocon shit going on but he just kept rolling with it. The thing is our Federal Government has become so huge that various agencies run the thing. I often wonder if the president even knows what's going on. To be honest I think the last president we had that actually wasn't incompetent was Bill Clinton. I think Bush and Obama are just letting other people run the presidency. As far as the war bit goes, I think things have degenerated into just having wars to make money. There really isn't any other reason to be invading these countries. It's waging war itself that is the profitable bit.

[Seshmeister]

In simple terms if this was a movie does that not make the US and her allies, the baddies?

[baru911]

I am the Law. How dare you question me..

OK, you busted a few Generals who were dirty. Thank you for saving the taxpayers money. Have you ever worked and won a case against a civilian defense contractor, i.e., General Dynamics for fraud? I’m sure you have. It happens all the time. Companies and employees commit fraud everyday. From that we can conclude that there are dishonest/immoral people within society. However, stating that you have busted Generals in an attempt to taint an entire industry isn’t logical. Bad apples abound. Thank you for picking them off the tree of our society and making it healthier.

[BigBadBrian]

Under the previous administration (read Rumsfeld), the U.S. military got away from training cooks and spent far much more money paying civilain "contractors" for that task in order to free up an all-volunteer and understrength military to invade other countries ...

Never had a "contractor" cook serve me food in the Chief's Mess on the aircraft carrier I was on. Don't know of any cooks that had to go fight at the front, rifle in hand, either.

[Satan]

You should go and do some reading on the 'School of the Americas' one of the the most vile bits of US foreign policy ever...

Considering he's posted several times in defense of BlacKKKwater, I doubt the School of the Americas will upset him either. http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/teufel/d085.gif

[Nickdfresh]

Hey, thanks for the English lesson!


No extra charge...


You’re right there were no cooks within the US military during the previous administration. None. Fort Campbell had and has ZERO US military personnel acting as food service specialist (92G’s) on the base. What reality are you living in? If you were referring to the locals that worked in the fast food restaurants inside the green zone then I would agree that US personnel were not serving food there for a time. However, you do remember why the locals were removed from those jobs and contractors were brought in? Something about troop safety concerns…Wow!

I wasn't talking about "locals" or contractors, I was talking about military food service personnel that can do the job for far cheaper...


There are a large number of difficult people in every day life that act as if they are gods. Most politicians would fit into that category if you asked me. Winning the hearts-and-minds of the people didn’t end the conflict in Iraq. Paying people off and remembering that violence solves problems did. Also, hammering the people coming over the Iraq-Iran border caused a lot of the insurgency to lose its steam.

The insurgency only lost steam when the Sunni tribal leaders fell out with AQI and when the U.S. engaged the Sunnis. Of course violence is used, but it was applied far more surgically. What good did hammering people over the Iranian border do? They were allied with the awesome Shiite gov't we gave them...

[Nickdfresh]

Never had a "contractor" cook serve me food in the Chief's Mess on the aircraft carrier I was on. Don't know of any cooks that had to go fight at the front, rifle in hand, either.

Well, you were fed by seamen then...

[Blaze]

Manipulative behavior patterns and double speak
I am not a LEO. Your projections do show that you feel certain things should not be questioned, much less transparent.
I am an independent examiner that specifically hunts for fraud and corruption. Not being a NGO, LEO, PDA, or PMC, I am graced with limitations different from my governmental affiliated brethren. I have observed a significant amount of dangerously complaisant patterns from you.
Let me share with you that the "good employee" defense is not a solid defense. Also, the world court can and does prosecute civilians.
But that is not really a concern of the type of perps that foster 2 homes and are clinging to bad knees from service time is it?
No, that however is where my civilian brethren march. There is a small army of good citizen that have taken hobby to expose corrupt conglomerates that are exploiting national and international intell labor force. Not every BG is a corrupt bastage.
Cheers and love from the front.

[baru911]

I got my Psych degree at my local JC. I didn't have time to matriculate and complete it at an institution of higher learning. Very busy in the Bat Cave planning my next attack with A.G.C. (the Army of Good Citizens) against the evil corporate conglomerates that make the black helicopters that monitor us.

Batmaaaaaan!
Batmaaaaaan!
Batmaaaaaan!
Batmaaaaaan!
Batman! Batman! Batman!
Batman! Batman! Batman!
Da da da da da da da da da da da da da!
Batmaaaaaan!


LMAO..My comment about you being "the Law" and you feeling you should not be questioned was based upon Cartman in Southpark and his Policeman character. Guess you have never seen that episode. As you are a part of a small army that exposes corrupt conglomerates you just don't have the time. That is understandable.

That reference kind of set you off. Dude, you really look into things way too far. Also, it appears that the psych classes you have taken are really paying off..."complaisant levels". Christ, I'm crying from laughing as much as I am right now.

I'm so sorry I challenged your AU-THOR-I-TY!

[ELVIS]

Spelling was not part of her higher learning...


Sent from my iPhone, bitches!

[Seshmeister]

Well, you were fed by seamen then...

Spelling? ;)

[Satan]

Now what are you implying about the Navy, Sesh?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBXu-iY7cw