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Hardrock69
09-18-2012, 05:23 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us/historian-says-piece-of-papyrus-refers-to-jesus-wife.html?_r=1&hp





Photograph by Karen L. King
A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: September 18, 2012


CAMBRIDGE, Mass. — A historian of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School has identified a scrap of papyrus that she says was written in Coptic in the fourth century and contains a phrase never seen in any piece of Scripture: “Jesus said to them, ‘My wife ...’ ”



The faded papyrus fragment is smaller than a business card, with eight lines on one side, in black ink legible under a magnifying glass. Just below the line about Jesus having a wife, the papyrus includes a second provocative clause that purportedly says, “she will be able to be my disciple.”

The finding was made public in Rome on Tuesday at an international meeting of Coptic scholars by Karen L. King, a historian who has published several books about new Gospel discoveries and is the first woman to hold the nation’s oldest endowed chair, the Hollis professor of divinity.

The provenance of the papyrus fragment is a mystery, and its owner has asked to remain anonymous. Until Tuesday, Dr. King had shown the fragment to only a small circle of experts in papyrology and Coptic linguistics, who concluded that it is most likely not a forgery. But she and her collaborators say they are eager for more scholars to weigh in and perhaps upend their conclusions.

Even with many questions unsettled, the discovery could reignite the debate over whether Jesus was married, whether Mary Magdalene was his wife and whether he had a female disciple. These debates date to the early centuries of Christianity, scholars say. But they are relevant today, when global Christianity is roiling over the place of women in ministry and the boundaries of marriage.

The discussion is particularly animated in the Roman Catholic Church, where despite calls for change, the Vatican has reiterated the teaching that the priesthood cannot be opened to women and married men because of the model set by Jesus.

Dr. King gave an interview and showed the papyrus fragment, encased in glass, to reporters from The New York Times, The Boston Globe and Harvard Magazine in her garret office in the tower at Harvard Divinity School last Thursday . She left the next day for Rome to deliver her paper on the find on Tuesday at the International Congress of Coptic Studies.

She repeatedly cautioned that this fragment should not be taken as proof that Jesus, the historical person, was actually married. The text was probably written centuries after Jesus lived, and all other early, historically reliable Christian literature is silent on the question, she said.

But the discovery is exciting, Dr. King said, because it is the first known statement from antiquity that refers to Jesus speaking of a wife. It provides further evidence that there was an active discussion among early Christians about whether Jesus was celibate or married, and which path his followers should choose.

“This fragment suggests that some early Christians had a tradition that Jesus was married,” Dr. King said. “There was, we already know, a controversy in the second century over whether Jesus was married, caught up with a debate about whether Christians should marry and have sex.”

Dr. King first learned about what she calls “The Gospel of Jesus’s Wife” when she received an e-mail in 2010 from a private collector who asked her to translate it. Dr. King, 58, specializes in Coptic literature, and has written books on the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Mary of Magdala, Gnosticism and women in antiquity.

The owner, who has a collection of Greek, Coptic and Arabic papyri, is not willing to be identified by name, nationality or location, because, Dr. King said, “He doesn’t want to be hounded by people who want to buy this.”

When, where or how the fragment was discovered is unknown. The collector acquired it in a batch of papyri in 1997 from the previous owner, a German. It came with a handwritten note in German that names a professor of Egyptology in Berlin, now deceased, and cited him calling the fragment “the sole example” of a text in which Jesus claims a wife.

The owner carried the fragment to the Divinity School in December 2011 and left it with Dr. King. She said she was initially suspicious, but it looked promising enough to explore. Three months later, she carried the fragment in her red handbag to New York to show it to two colleagues, both papyrologists: Roger Bagnall, director of the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, at New York University, and AnneMarie Luijendijk, an associate professor of religion at Princeton University.

They examined the scrap under sharp magnification. It was very small — only 4 by 8 centimeters. The lettering was splotchy and uneven, the hand of an amateur, but not unusual for the time period, when many Christians were poor and persecuted.

It was written in Coptic, an Egyptian language that uses Greek characters — and more precisely, in Sahidic Coptic, a dialect from southern Egypt, Dr. Luijendijk said in an interview.

What convinced them it was probably genuine was the fading of the ink on the papyrus fibers, and traces of ink adhered to the bent fibers at the torn edges. The back side is so faint that only five words are visible, one only partly: “my moth[er],” “three,” “forth which.”

“It would be impossible to forge,” said Dr. Luijendijk, who contributed to Dr. King’s paper.

Dr. Bagnall reasoned that a forger would have had to be expert in Coptic grammar, handwriting and ideas. Most forgeries he has seen were nothing more than gibberish. And if it were a forgery intended to cause a sensation or make someone rich, why would it have lain in obscurity for so many years?

“It’s hard to construct a scenario that is at all plausible in which somebody fakes something like this. The world is not really crawling with crooked papyrologists,” Dr. Bagnall said.

The piece is torn into a rough rectangle, so that the document is missing its adjoining text on the left, right, top and bottom — most likely the work of a dealer who divided up a larger piece to maximize his profit, Dr. Bagnall said.

Much of the context, therefore, is missing. But Dr. King was struck by phrases in the fragment like “My mother gave to me life,” and “Mary is worthy of it,” which resemble snippets from the Gospels of Thomas and Mary. Experts believe those were written in the late second century and translated into Coptic. She surmises that this fragment is also copied from a second century Greek text.

The meaning of the words, “my wife,” is beyond question, Dr. King said. “These words can mean nothing else.” The text beyond “my wife” is cut off.

Dr. King did not have the ink dated using carbon testing. She said it would require scraping off too much, destroying the relic. She still plans to have the ink tested by spectroscopy, which could roughly determine its age by its chemical composition.

Dr. King submitted her paper to The Harvard Theological Review, which asked three scholars to review it. Two questioned its authenticity, but they had seen only low-resolution photographs of the fragment and were unaware that expert papyrologists had seen the actual item and judged it to be genuine, Dr. King said. One of the two questioned the grammar, translation and interpretation.

Ariel Shisha-Halevy, an eminent Coptic linguist at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, was consulted, and responded in an e-mail in September, “I believe — on the basis of language and grammar — the text is authentic.”

Major doubts allayed, The Review plans to publish Dr. King’s article in its January issue.

The owner has offered to donate the papyrus to Harvard if the university buys a “substantial part of his collection,” Dr. King said, which Harvard is considering. She said she will “push him to come forward,” in part to avoid stoking conspiracy theories.

The notion that Jesus had a wife was the central conceit of the best seller and movie “The Da Vinci Code.” But Dr. King said she wants nothing to do with the code or its author: “At least, don’t say this proves Dan Brown was right.”

Seshmeister
09-18-2012, 05:37 PM
There are lots of books that never made the bible like the Gospel of Thomas which tries fill in the bits in between the Mithras inspired nativity story and when he was 30.

It included Bringing life to a dried fish (this is only present in later texts)

(First group)
3 Miracles - Breathes life into birds fashioned from clay, curses a boy, who then becomes a corpse, curses a boy who falls dead and his parents become blind
Attempt to teach Jesus which fails, with Jesus doing the teaching

3 Miracles - Reverses his earlier acts, resurrects a friend who fell from a roof, heals a man who chopped his foot with an axe [1]
(Second group)

3 Miracles - Carries water on cloth, produces a feast from a single grain, stretches a beam of wood to help his father finish constructing a bed
Attempts to teach Jesus, which fail, with Jesus doing the teaching

3 Miracles - Heals James from snake poison, resurrects a child who died of illness, resurrects a man who died in a construction accident
Incident in the temple paralleling Luke
It is also seen in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas that from the age of five years old until the age of twelve, the young Jesus had killed at least three people, two children and one adult teacher. They were not brought back to life.

Jesus Christ
09-18-2012, 05:44 PM
Oh, like you never had a temper tantrum when you were a kid? :jesuslol:

VHscraps
09-18-2012, 05:54 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us/historian-says-piece-of-papyrus-refers-to-jesus-wife.html?_r=1&hp

I think 'wife', at that time, might have referred to a woman a man had slept with, and not necessarily a relationship like modern marriage.

I seem to remember that - from the dim distant days when I took a cheap shot first year undergrad course in Biblical Hermeneutics at university, which was after I had discovered that I was never gonna cut it with the mandatory 'Introduction to Economics' alternative ...!

Seshmeister
09-18-2012, 05:55 PM
This is what is so tiresome about scripture.

If you just change the meaning of all the words then what's the point in any of it?

Hardrock69
09-18-2012, 05:57 PM
:lmao:

And then there is the Gospel of Mary....which was the original source for information that Mary was his wife, and who bore him children.

She went to the South of France, and died there. Her skull is on display at a church, and there is a cave that has been known and revered as her tomb for over 1700 years....

Was she hot? Do you have any nude photos of her Jesus? :hee:

Jesus Christ
09-18-2012, 06:00 PM
Of course she was hot. I'm the Son of God, for Dad's sake!

Do ye think I would marry an ugly chick? :jesuslol:

Seshmeister
09-18-2012, 06:02 PM
Did Jesus have a small cock, a medium sized cock or a real mayonnaise cannon?

Surely if you were the son of god(and also god) you would give yourself a biggie.

VHscraps
09-18-2012, 06:08 PM
This is what is so tiresome about scripture.

If you just change the meaning of all the words then what's the point in any of it?

Ah, but the Hermeneutic approach would examine the context and the changing meanings / referents in language to try and get to some underlying consistent interpretation, whether or not that makes it more persuasive is another matter, but it is a method that historians and philosophers have used to get beneath the obfuscations and inconsistencies of language use, naming, and so on.

All those other Gospels - and, yeah, there's a ton of stuff - illustrate that the Gospels that are in the Bible were chosen for very 'political' reasons. The founders of the Church after the death of Christ were very astute, I'd guess - they picked the Gospels that more or less were in agreement about the events of Christ's life and death. Matthew, Mark, Luke - John has many similarities, but isn't that the one that ends with a kinda heavy metal Apocalyptic ending. Or am I getting my Old and New Testaments mixed up ... anyway, one of the four is slightly out of kilter with the others.

Jesus Christ
09-18-2012, 06:09 PM
Did Jesus have a small cock, a medium sized cock or a real mayonnaise cannon?

Surely if you were the son of god(and also god) you would give yourself a biggie.

Why are ye so interested in that, Sesh?

With all thy previous posts that speculated that I might be a homosexual, One really has to wonder about these things :headlights:

Seshmeister
09-18-2012, 06:09 PM
:lmao:

And then there is the Gospel of Mary....which was the original source for information that Mary was his wife, and who bore him children.

She went to the South of France, and died there. Her skull is on display at a church, and there is a cave that has been known and revered as her tomb for over 1700 years....


It's amazing the number of these characters suddenly made massive (undocumented until much later) journeys West conveniently creating places for rich pilgrims to visit later.

It was very thoughtful of them to be so helpful to the local economies, the story that St Andrew went all the way to Scotland for no apparent reason was particularly useful as it helped fund a massive cathedral at St Andrew's(now known for golf) - maybe he traveled on the back of the Loch Ness Monster...

Seshmeister
09-18-2012, 06:14 PM
Why are ye so interested in that, Sesh?

With all thy previous posts that speculated that I might be a homosexual, One really has to wonder about these things :headlights:

Why not wonder?

It's a puzzling conundrum, people are going to see it at the crucifixion and a tiny one could undermine the standing of Jesus but a massive dong is going to be a distraction and sexualize him.

VHscraps
09-18-2012, 06:19 PM
Of course she was hot. I'm the Son of God, for Dad's sake!

Do ye think I would marry an ugly chick? :jesuslol:

In Martin Scorsese's film about your last temptation, she was played with requisite hotness by Barbara Hershey (this was the 80s).

So, Marty got it right? Musta been his training for the Priesthood.

Jesus Christ
09-18-2012, 06:20 PM
Why not wonder?

It's a puzzling conundrum, people are going to see it at the crucifixion and a tiny one could undermine the standing of Jesus but a massive dong is going to be a distraction and sexualize him.

Well, let Me put it this way.....

If ye were the CEO of General Motors, would ye drive a 4 cylinder sub-compact, or a Corvette? :cool:

Jesus Christ
09-18-2012, 06:24 PM
In Martin Scorsese's film about your last temptation, she was played with requisite hotness by Barbara Hershey (this was the 80s).

So, Marty got it right? Musta been his training for the Priesthood.

Marty used a considerable amount of "creative license" in that movie. But then, so did Mel Gibson, and pretty much anybody else who ever made a movie about Me.

Seshmeister
09-18-2012, 06:48 PM
Well, let Me put it this way.....

If ye were the CEO of General Motors, would ye drive a 4 cylinder sub-compact, or a Corvette? :cool:

I think I might want a couple of different models.

Maybe he was biphalic?

Hardrock69
09-18-2012, 08:17 PM
Just to mention, these scholars are tops in their field, and:


The meaning of the words, 'my wife,' is beyond question", Dr. King said. “These words can mean nothing else.”
The text beyond “my wife” is cut off.


So no way to be 100% sure it is talking about the wife of Jesus. However, most experts on ancient Middle Eastern and early Christian and Judaic history agree that, as Jesus was a rabbi, it would have been unusual for him NOT to be married.

Right Jesus? ;)

Jesus Christ
09-18-2012, 08:30 PM
Verily I say unto thee that I loved Mary Magdalene very much when I was on Earth, and I love her now that we are both in Heaven. She is My wife. And as the Scriptures remind us, "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled" so anybody who hath a problem with Me marrying her, they can go to Hell. (and probably will)

Now as to the questions raised in books of fiction such as "The DaVinci Code" which implies that we had children, that is not so. I was a teenager when My stepfather Joseph died, and My younger brothers and sisters had to grow up without their father. I knew that I would die at the age of 33, and though I would rise from the dead, I would soon after ascend to Heaven and would not be able to stay on Earth to raise children. Joseph did not know when he would die, so he's excused for abandoning his children. But I could not justify this from Myself.

Not to mention the Roman postal service really sucked, and it is doubtful that Mary would have received the child support checks anyway.

ZahZoo
09-19-2012, 10:52 AM
I think 'wife', at that time, might have referred to a woman a man had slept with, and not necessarily a relationship like modern marriage.

I seem to remember that - from the dim distant days when I took a cheap shot first year undergrad course in Biblical Hermeneutics at university, which was after I had discovered that I was never gonna cut it with the mandatory 'Introduction to Economics' alternative ...!

You probably didn't pay much attention in your history classes either... marriage in those times was more aligned with slave ownership. Men owned women who were viewed more along the lines of property of lesser beings. Dowry payments from the bride's family were ways of buying into preferred family/tribal blood lines... of course debts could be settled by putting up a daughter or two as well.

Some of these practices are still alive and flourishing in the middle east and Asia...

sadaist
09-19-2012, 11:24 AM
i give up

VHscraps
09-19-2012, 12:25 PM
You probably didn't pay much attention in your history classes either... marriage in those times was more aligned with slave ownership. Men owned women who were viewed more along the lines of property of lesser beings. Dowry payments from the bride's family were ways of buying into preferred family/tribal blood lines... of course debts could be settled by putting up a daughter or two as well.

Some of these practices are still alive and flourishing in the middle east and Asia...

What I'm saying is it depends on what word they are saying is translated as 'wife'.

What you are referring to has nothing to do with biblical hermeneutics and disagreements over Hebrew or Aramaic words that newspaper articles in English report to mean 'wife' - the point I was making was simy that it's about inter-textual consistencies in the language, and what agreements or otherwise are found in its various uses.

ZahZoo
09-19-2012, 02:31 PM
Well than... lose the term wife and call em "Ole Lady" if you want to debate language semantics...

This is the Roth Army... not Cork Sniffers Academic Review...

PETE'S BROTHER
09-19-2012, 02:52 PM
Well than... lose the term wife and call em "Ole Lady" if you want to debate language semantics...

This is the Roth Army... not Cork Sniffers Academic Review...

FUCK, coulda told me this years ago...