BREAKING!! Romney to Release Tax Return From 2011

[Nickdfresh]

CNN is saying the Romney Campaign will release tax records indicating a massive 14.1% tax rate on investment income of $13.7 million...

[Hardrock69]

Really? I have been watching it for the past hour and a half and they have not said anything at all about this....

[jhale667]

Yep...scumbag only paid 14.1% (y'know, on the income he's NOT hiding).

So it's official...Shitt Wrongney: Tax-avoiding douchebag! (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/us-usa-campaign-romney-taxes-idUSBRE88K11Y20120921)

[Dr. Love]

This whole tax thing ... I don't know what to think. If I had that much money, I'd probably do everything I could to pay as little too. Hell, I do as much as I can to legally avoid the full tax burden as I can already.

I've been doing contract work on the side for the last year to achieve some financial goals, but my tax rate has jumped up high enough that the income barely justifies the work. I get taxed at a higher rate now on both jobs because my aggregate income is so high.

I feel like I'm being punished for working hard to get ahead in life while I see a lot of other people work a lot less and pay a disproportionately lower fraction of their income.

I just can't understand why we have a system that punishes the hard working and successful unfairly. I would be fine if we all paid a flat percentage ... But the way it is now ...

I put myself through school, paid off my loans 20 years early, paid all my debts, and am trying to forge ahead through sheer force of will and determination by working extra. And I have a buddy that lives in section 8 housing with 4 other people who pool their social security checks and food stamps. And for whatever reason, he's the one telling me that it isn't worth the extra work to he debt free when he can just get what he wants and not pay for it.

This whole system is screwed up. The people that work the hardest, no matter their income level, seem to pay the most ...

[DLR Bridge]

I hear ya Doc. Every friend I have who works a union job that offers OT tells me that they have to find the sweet spot of how many additional hours to take on before the bracket jumps and the extra time yields less gain. Taxes truly suck it.

[jhale667]

And I have a buddy that lives in section 8 housing with 4 other people who pool their social security checks and food stamps. And for whatever reason, he's the one telling me that it isn't worth the extra work to he debt free when he can just get what he wants and not pay for it.



Your buddy kinda sounds like an idiot... who's gaming the system... just sayin'.

[MUSICMANN]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/21/campaign-says-romney-paid-average-effective-tax-rate-20-percent-over-2-decades/


The man has done nothing wrong and you liberal left wing-nuts have been fighting a losing battle. Romney has followed the tax code and has paid more than his fair share, and also has been very generous to charities as well. I love how the Obama campaign has made this into an issue to disguise his socialist beliefs to pit Americans against each other. People who work hard and make alot of money are not the enemy of the state. For fucks sake that's what this country was built on. Having a dream and an entrepreneur hard working spirit. It's those who believe that somehow rich people owe not only the government more but wants a free handout without lifting a single finger towards a hard days work is the problem. It's kinda funny how so many people in this country look down on Romney and him being rich, yet you have athletes who make way more than he does in a single year and nobody say's one thing about it. Kinda funny you have all these little kids who want to be like Mike and RGIII and their parents push them to be, yet they have a disdain for Romney because he's a hard working American with a outstanding business background who happens to not be black. The irony in this whole election is fucking unbelievable. Why doesn't the Dumbass president just address the country and tell the people who believe that they are owed something to just go out and kick in the neighbors door and take that new 50 inch TV that was just bought. Go out and take that car they like that someone down the road has. Just take it because they are owed it and since those people who believe in hard work can buy what they want and doesn't believe in big government and handouts are the enemy, why wait for the higher taxes to be passed to the IRS, just go and get what they think they deserve. This is pretty much what Obama wants this country to become. A bunch of government dependent leeches that don't aspire to better themselves but to want what their neighbor has without wanting to work for it.

Let me add. This is how i know Obama is not a true Catholic and is more Muslim. He must have never read the 10 commandments that clearly states to not covet thy neighbors goods. If you think that you deserve something that someone else has and want it without working for it, you are a very sad human being.

[jhale667]

...you liberal left wing-nuts have been fighting a losing battle.


No, that'd be your fucktard of a candidate.

[DLR Bridge]

I love when people spew out shit like 'the libs want a piece of the rich folks action'. That's such bullshit. The problem that should piss everyone off is the rich paying less in taxes than the poor or middle class. I don't want their fucking money. I earn my keep. What little of it it I get to keep.

[jhale667]

I love when people spew out shit like 'the libs want a piece of the rich folks action'. That's such bullshit. The problem that should piss everyone off is the rich paying less in taxes than the poor or middle class. I don't want their fucking money. I earn my keep. What little of it it I get to keep.


No shit... gotta love brainless idiots spewing (already debunked)bullshit Repuke talking points... like liberals want "handouts", that Obama's a "socialist" - or that born with a silver spoon up his ass Wrongney ever "worked hard".

[DLR Bridge]

It's fucking ponderous.

[jhale667]

Especially in light of the fact that Romney's own advisors past and present are like "WTF?"

Former Mitt strategist on Romneyland tax dump: 'Is this an April Fool's joke? (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/21/1134952/-Former-Mitt-strategist-on-Romneyland-tax-dump-Is-this-an-April-Fool-s-joke)'


Alex Castellanos, who worked for Mitt Romney in 2008 and continues to be a Republican political consultant, tells Politico's Maggie Haberman that he is not impressed with the optics of Romney's tax dump move:


"At first I thought this was an April Fool's Joke," said Castellanos, who tweeted something to that effect at me earlier. "But it isn't April. I can't imagine that David Axelrod will now say, I'm glad Mitt put this issue behind him. This will drag Mitt's taxes back into the debate. And there's not many days left. I just can't imagine why they would do this. There are 40 days left and you have now made more of them about Mitt's taxes....you don't serve a life sentence and then confess afterward. They've taken their beating on this (already) ... I just don't understand how a (being) 'little pregnant' strategy (works)."

According to Haberman, Castellanos isn't alone. She says other Republican operatives are telling her this partial dump of Romney's past tax returns will only encourage more questions about his past returns.
One good question, raised by Greg Sargent, is this: what was Mitt Romney's actual effective tax rate during the past 20 years? As he points out, Romney merely released the average tax rate during that time. That means years in which he had lower income count the same as years in which he had a higher income, and given that his tax rate seems to go down as his income goes up, the 20 percent figure he's releasing is probably a bit misleading.

.

[Dr. Love]

I looked today at our payroll system to see how much I'd paid in taxes over the last 4 years I've been with the company. Out of the last 4 years I've been here, 1 whole years pay went to pay taxes. that's ridiculous.

I get upset that anyone has to pay more or less than me (though most pay less than me percentage-wise). It's not fair - equality would dictate we all pay the sake percentage.

What really upsets me is how much we pay in taxes for such stupid shit. I don't want to pay for pointless wars. I don't want to pay to have bases all over the world. I don't want to pay for such an expensive election cycle. I don't want to pay a corrupt prison system. Neither Obama or Romney will change any of that.

[binnie]

This whole tax thing ... I don't know what to think. If I had that much money, I'd probably do everything I could to pay as little too. Hell, I do as much as I can to legally avoid the full tax burden as I can already.

I've been doing contract work on the side for the last year to achieve some financial goals, but my tax rate has jumped up high enough that the income barely justifies the work. I get taxed at a higher rate now on both jobs because my aggregate income is so high.

I feel like I'm being punished for working hard to get ahead in life while I see a lot of other people work a lot less and pay a disproportionately lower fraction of their income.

I just can't understand why we have a system that punishes the hard working and successful unfairly. I would be fine if we all paid a flat percentage ... But the way it is now ...

I put myself through school, paid off my loans 20 years early, paid all my debts, and am trying to forge ahead through sheer force of will and determination by working extra. And I have a buddy that lives in section 8 housing with 4 other people who pool their social security checks and food stamps. And for whatever reason, he's the one telling me that it isn't worth the extra work to he debt free when he can just get what he wants and not pay for it.

This whole system is screwed up. The people that work the hardest, no matter their income level, seem to pay the most ...

Of course those who work harder pay more - personally, it doesn't bother me all that much. I have no problem with paying more to help those who are less able/less capable, or lower earners than me. What I do have a problem with is people with vast, vast sums of money hiring accountants to avoid paying their share (why on earth should someone with more end up paying a smaller percentage than me?)

[Dr. Love]

Of course those who work harder pay more

No, those that earn more (are supposed to) pay more. There are plenty of people that work very hard for a pittance and don't pay much, just as there are plenty of people that don't work very hard that pay a lot. I simply question a system that creates situations where it is not worth while to work harder because the return on that work is not worth the effort.

[binnie]

No, those that earn more (are supposed to) pay more. There are plenty of people that work very hard for a pittance and don't pay much, just as there are plenty of people that don't work very hard that pay a lot. I simply question a system that creates situations where it is not worth while to work harder because the return on that work is not worth the effort.

I think we agree here - you earn more, you (should) pay more. My confusion of 'work harder' and 'earn more' didn't help matters (although I generally think that those who end up earning more have generally worked harder - it takes a lot of work to become a surgeon, for instance, but a surgeon's working day may not be as visibly hard as someone who works in construction).

I guess the issue on whether working more is worth it really depends on what the individual wants. Some people reach a point where they are content with their lot (a lot which would not content many others) and therefore do not see the need to work harder for a little more money. To you or I that might seem crazy, but it's not our life.

[Nickdfresh]

...
Let me add. This is how i know Obama is not a true Catholic and is more Muslim. He must have never read the 10 commandments that clearly states to not covet thy neighbors goods. If you think that you deserve something that someone else has and want it without working for it, you are a very sad human being.

Obama's not a Catholic and he not a Muslim, WTF are you even talking about? Did you start your Friday beer binge early today or something?

[jhale667]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/10468_478129015554854_470699945_n_zpsa1cb4df6.jpg

[Nitro Express]

This just makes Harry Reid look like the bumbling ass he is. He was the one saying Mitt didn't pay any taxes.

[Nitro Express]

People don't vote issues. They vote their pocketbook. They vote for who is going to benefit them financially the most. Some people have something to gain from Mitt and some people have something to gain from Obama. Always follow the money and there lies the truth. Yes it's shallow but human beings are shallow creatures.

[Nickdfresh]

This just makes Harry Reid look like the bumbling ass he is. He was the one saying Mitt didn't pay any taxes.

When did Reid say that?

[Dr. Love]

I think we agree here - you earn more, you (should) pay more. My confusion of 'work harder' and 'earn more' didn't help matters (although I generally think that those who end up earning more have generally worked harder - it takes a lot of work to become a surgeon, for instance, but a surgeon's working day may not be as visibly hard as someone who works in construction).

I guess the issue on whether working more is worth it really depends on what the individual wants. Some people reach a point where they are content with their lot (a lot which would not content many others) and therefore do not see the need to work harder for a little more money. To you or I that might seem crazy, but it's not our life.

I don't really agree :)

I think everyone should pay the same percentage regardless of income. I think a progressive tax system is unfair; if we have to tax income, everyone should pay the same rate, and it should be the same for capital gains, corporate income, personal income or anything else.

[MUSICMANN]

Obama's not a Catholic and he not a Muslim, WTF are you even talking about? Did you start your Friday beer binge early today or something?

I meant he pretends to be a christian and spouts off bullshit, but doesn't even know what the hell he is even saying.

[Nitro Express]

When did Reid say that?

[jhale667]

This just makes Harry Reid look like the bumbling ass he is. He was the one saying Mitt didn't pay any taxes.


How does releasing one year (and a "guestimate" of others) prove Reid wrong? Not that I necessarily disagree with the "Reid's a bumbling ass" part...

[Hardrock69]

Especially in light of the fact that Romney's own advisors past and present are like "WTF?"

Former Mitt strategist on Romneyland tax dump: 'Is this an April Fool's joke? (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/21/1134952/-Former-Mitt-strategist-on-Romneyland-tax-dump-Is-this-an-April-Fool-s-joke)'


Alex Castellanos, who worked for Mitt Romney in 2008 and continues to be a Republican political consultant, tells Politico's Maggie Haberman that he is not impressed with the optics of Romney's tax dump move:


"At first I thought this was an April Fool's Joke," said Castellanos, who tweeted something to that effect at me earlier. "But it isn't April. I can't imagine that David Axelrod will now say, I'm glad Mitt put this issue behind him. This will drag Mitt's taxes back into the debate. And there's not many days left. I just can't imagine why they would do this. There are 40 days left and you have now made more of them about Mitt's taxes....you don't serve a life sentence and then confess afterward. They've taken their beating on this (already) ... I just don't understand how a (being) 'little pregnant' strategy (works)."

According to Haberman, Castellanos isn't alone. She says other Republican operatives are telling her this partial dump of Romney's past tax returns will only encourage more questions about his past returns.
One good question, raised by Greg Sargent, is this: what was Mitt Romney's actual effective tax rate during the past 20 years? As he points out, Romney merely released the average tax rate during that time. That means years in which he had lower income count the same as years in which he had a higher income, and given that his tax rate seems to go down as his income goes up, the 20 percent figure he's releasing is probably a bit misleading.
.


OK so here is yet ANOTHER instance where it appears Romney and his lackeys are sabotaging his campaign on purpose. Why are they doing this? By releasing only a single year's worth of returns at this point, he continues to appear as if he has something to hide. What is he hiding? That is the question everyone is asking now....even his own fucking people......I smell mutiny in the air.....if people in his own camp were not jumping ship before....I can see it happening soon....

[Nickdfresh]

I meant he pretends to be a christian and spouts off bullshit, but doesn't even know what the hell he is even saying.

You've just described Elvis and probably 90% of the Christians I've ever met...

[Nickdfresh]

He said "let him prove he has paid tax because he hasn't." He's talking about proving it, not that he hadn't paid any taxes. And quick frankly by releasing a single, politically sanitized year where Rom's knew he was seeking higher office, he really still hasn't proven much other than he pays a lower rate on his investment income than most of us hear have on our peasant, er, middle class incomes...

[ZahZoo]

This whole tax debate is utter bullshit... Let's settle it right here.

Name me 5 elected officials in Washington that have paid more than 20% on income taxes in recent times...?

Crickets chirping...

[jhale667]

It's more about the offshore accounts, and the dishonesty - speaks to their lack of integrity and dollar-worship. Now Ryan stuck his foot in it too...

Ryan's latest whopper: Oops, I 'overlooked' 20% of my income (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/22/1135146/-Ryan-s-latest-whopper-Oops-I-overlooked-20-of-my-income)

In an amended return also released Friday, Representative Paul D. Ryan, Mr. Romney’s running mate, disclosed that he and his wife had initially failed to report $61,122 in income from 2011. He said the failure was inadvertent. The change raised their total income to $323,416 and increased their taxes by $19,917 to $64,674, or 20 percent of adjusted gross income.

They owed a penalty of $59 for the original underpayment. The Ryans explained that they had overlooked their income from the Prudence Little Living Trust. Mrs. Little, who died in 2010, was Mrs. Ryan’s mother.

Yup. I overlooked that $60K, almost 20% of my income. $60K here, $60K there, how am I supposed to keep track of it? Who can remember every penny? Besides it came from some obscure source I'd never remember ... what was it again? ... oh yeah, your Mom's trust.

Or maybe, just maybe, what I overlooked was the fact that I would be the vice-presidential candidate and wouldn't be able to count on the trust income going unnoticed and unreported.

Sorry, no time for questions, got to run another sub-3-hour marathon.

(As Paul Krugman has always called him: the flim-flam man.)

[ELVIS]

You've just described Elvis and probably 90% of the Christians I've ever met...

Yer momma...

[MUSICMANN]

This sums up you left Liberal wing-nuts and your backwards ass views.

[FORD]

"Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore"

Well, between Fred Phelps, Scott Roeder, Sam Brownback, and Kristopher K. Kobach, who the fuck would WANT to be?

BTW, that video is the stupidest fucking thing I've seen since some douche with a cellphone wasted time posting videos of the Velveetapalooza 2004 tour.

[MUSICMANN]

"Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore"

Well, between Fred Phelps, Scott Roeder, Sam Brownback, and Kristopher K. Kobach, who the fuck would WANT to be?

BTW, that video is the stupidest fucking thing I've seen since some douche with a cellphone wasted time posting videos of the Velveetapalooza 2004 tour.



But it's the truth, so deal with it. The same truth that the Obama cronies and the left media continue to hide and cover on all the false statements not only about Romney but Obama's failed National and Foreign policies. Fast and Furious, Bush's fault. The Economy, Bush's Fault. The Middle East burning and killing of our US ambassador, Bush's Fault and that little first amendment, Freedom of Speech, that allows people in this country to make or say anything be it a youtube video or whatever. So i guess when Iran finally builds that nuke and fires it at Israel, that will be Bush's fault too. If Iran decides to turn a missile on Poland or possibly Russia turning a missile on someone, that's Bush's fault as well. Obama = Weak and Blame. That's not what this country needs and if you think that way you're as fucked up as Obama and his socialist wing-nuts.












This is Obama's weak Foreign policies and Pandering has led to.

[FORD]

When did Benji NuttyYahoo move to Lousyana?

[MUSICMANN]

When did Benji NuttyYahoo move to Lousyana?


As usual, this type of discussion is way above your pay grade.

[FORD]

Pay grade?

So you ADMIT you're here as a KKKoch funded paid propagandist?

Fuck your distorted delusional bullshit, and fuck your terrorist pal NuttyYahoo in his nazi ass with Piyush Jindal's shriveled up 2 inch Hindu cock.

Nobody's buying this bullshit.

[VAiN]

Yep...scumbag only paid 14.1% (y'know, on the income he's NOT hiding).

So it's official...Shitt Wrongney: Tax-avoiding douchebag! (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/us-usa-campaign-romney-taxes-idUSBRE88K11Y20120921)

Not attacking you here, but what do you propose is a fair tax rate? 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%???? It's my understanding that you can offset the tax burden by donating money... he gave away 4 fucking million dollars US. I don't get why people get so bent out of shape about a guy who is successful and smart with his money. I hope to have these same problems one day.

[MUSICMANN]

Pay grade?

So you ADMIT you're here as a KKKoch funded paid propagandist?

Fuck your distorted delusional bullshit, and fuck your terrorist pal NuttyYahoo in his nazi ass with Piyush Jindal's shriveled up 2 inch Hindu cock.



Nobody's buying this bullshit.


The truth shall set you free. I find it hard to believe that you can't handle or better yet can turn a blind eye to the factual situation this country is facing. I love how you omit Obama's failures and want to focus in on what i said about Israel, which in turn is a huge travesty that Obama and the Democrats is doing to the only Democratic country in the middle east and wanting what can only be labeled as a witch hunt to Catholic's in this country.

[FORD]

Yeah... Israel under the Nazi Likud regime is a "Democracy"..... just like South Africa was in the 1980s.

I'll bet you were fine with that fascist apartheid regime too, just like your false messiah the First Beast Ronald Wilson Reagan (666) was.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aopKk56jM-I

BTW.... why do you always hijack the threads when the Repuke talking points can't bullshit away from the isssues? (Romney being a serial tax cheat, in this case)

[MUSICMANN]

Yeah... Israel under the Nazi Likud regime is a "Democracy"..... just like South Africa was in the 1980s.

I'll bet you were fine with that fascist apartheid regime too, just like your false messiah the First Beast Ronald Wilson Reagan (666) was.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aopKk56jM-I





BTW.... why do you always hijack the threads when the Repuke talking points can't bullshit away from the isssues? (Romney being a serial tax cheat, in this case)


I never hijacked anything. This all involves how Obama can have all these failure's and the left liberals and media turn a blind eye on so many important issue's this country faces and how even when Romney divulges his last 2 yrs. of taxes which shows he paid more taxes than he should have and gave even more to charities and still it's a talking point that the Obama campaign is pushing trying to deflect from his terrible presidency of the last 4 yrs. You even have dumbass Harry Reid now going on about Romney cooking his numbers and doctoring his taxes. It's fucking pathetic. The real issue's is that Obama has failed on the Economy, Foreign policy and has started a class war amongst Americans just to satisfy his socialist and fascist beliefs.

[FORD]

..... even when Romney divulges his last 2 yrs. of taxes which shows he paid more taxes than he should have

You seriously believe a goddamn billionaire - who didn't do a damn thing to earn any of that money, by the way - should pay LESS than 14% taxes???

OK.... discussion over.

I can't take ANYTHING you say seriously after that.

[Nickdfresh]

This sums up you left Liberal wing-nuts and your backwards ass views.




Who gives a fuck about Sheryl Crow?

[Nitro Express]

Liberalism works as long as someone is productive to leach off of.

[Nitro Express]

You seriously believe a goddamn billionaire - who didn't do a damn thing to earn any of that money, by the way - should pay LESS than 14% taxes???

OK.... discussion over.

I can't take ANYTHING you say seriously after that.

He could have gotten one of those tax attorneys who only handle a few clients and deffered his taxes. Frankly if I was in Mitt's shoes I probably would have paid less tax than he did because I already think our military, the biggest tax mooch gets too much money.

Ok Obama, release your college records now.

[jhale667]

Liberalism works as long as someone is productive to leach off of.

Nice bullshit talking point...

[FORD]

Nice bullshit talking point...

Right out of Atlas Shitted too. :puke:

[FORD]

He could have gotten one of those tax attorneys who only handle a few clients and deffered his taxes. Frankly if I was in Mitt's shoes I probably would have paid less tax than he did because I already think our military, the biggest tax mooch gets too much money.

Ok Obama, release your college records now.

No, it's not Mittens lawyer.....

Even though rich people who actually EARN their money (any person who actually makes something or provides a legitimate service and is well paid for doing so) pay less taxes than they used to, thanks to the BCE Reagan & Chimpy tax cuts, the finanical vampires like Mittens, the banksters, the speculators at Gold Mansacks, etc. who provide NOTHING, and produce NOTHING, but merely shuffle paper (or more likely, electrons these days) from one account to another pay the lowest taxes of all, because it's all capital gains as opposed to earnings.

So while Mittens lawyer probably makes a good 6 digit income himself, he's paying higher taxes than his client.

[MUSICMANN]

You seriously believe a goddamn billionaire - who didn't do a damn thing to earn any of that money, by the way - should pay LESS than 14% taxes???

OK.... discussion over.

I can't take ANYTHING you say seriously after that.


You're a fucking retard. He paid 20% in taxes and another 13% was given to charity. Way to continue with a useless left liberal talking point. So i guess Bill Gates or Steve Jobs didn't earn their money either. Or how about the person who invented the paperclip or any other business that became very successful. Some of you here are just not that bright of a light bulb.You guys need to apply for those shovel ready Obama jobs, because smart thinking is definitely not in your DNA.

[FORD]

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs actually made something that made them rich. And both of them are also on record as saying they KNOW they don't pay enough taxes.

I'm also reasonably certain that the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation has given far more to ACTUAL charities than Mittens has to fund his cult's fucked up political adventures, such as funding Prop H8 in California a few years ago.

[MUSICMANN]

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs actually made something that made them rich. And both of them are also on record as saying they KNOW they don't pay enough taxes.

I'm also reasonably certain that the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation has given far more to ACTUAL charities than Mittens has to fund his cult's fucked up political adventures, such as funding Prop H8 in California a few years ago.



So if you don't actually make anything that you can touch or feel is not a real job. So, the dude that came up with facebook and made billions shouldn't be considered a successful person. As for Gates and Jobs saying they know they don't pay enough taxes, i say that nothing stops any individual in this country from pulling out their checkbook and paying whatever to the IRS. I guess they can say they don't pay enough but until the IRS actually makes them pay more, they or just Gates now will continue to push that liberal idea that rich folks don't pay enough. As for charity, i'm pretty sure Romney has paid millions more than you or me has, so who gives a fuck.

[FORD]

The guy who created Facebook made something. Yeah, it's just some computer code, and a colossal fucking waste of time, in my opinion. But still, it was a creative effort that went into it, and if somebody wanted to pay him for that shit, so be it.

That's a big difference from what a vulture capitalist like Mittens does. Or what the fucking asshole speculator criminals on Wall Street do. Or what health insurance companies do. Which is find ways to steal money from you, while producing NOTHING, and serving nobody but themselves.

[Nitro Express]

So if you don't actually make anything that you can touch or feel is not a real job. So, the dude that came up with facebook and made billions shouldn't be considered a successful person. As for Gates and Jobs saying they know they don't pay enough taxes, i say that nothing stops any individual in this country from pulling out their checkbook and paying whatever to the IRS. I guess they can say they don't pay enough but until the IRS actually makes them pay more, they or just Gates now will continue to push that liberal idea that rich folks don't pay enough. As for charity, i'm pretty sure Romney has paid millions more than you or me has, so who gives a fuck.

You have tangible goods and intangible goods. Insurance is a intangible good. Try working in an insurance office for long hours and tell me that isn't a real job. Sure it is and if your house gets burned up in a fire, you are glad you have an insurance policy.

As far as redistribution of wealth is concerned, I'm against it. If you made your money honestly you are entitled to keep it. All this fairness doctrine has been tried and ended up in failure. Russia went away from it and China is in the process of doing so. North Korea is backwards because of it.

[FORD]

You have tangible goods and intangible goods. Insurance is a intangible good. Try working in an insurance office for long hours and tell me that isn't a real job. Sure it is and if your house gets burned up in a fire, you are glad you have an insurance policy.


Yeah, but I wasn't really referring to fire insurance. The majority of people never have their house burn down, but it's always technically possible, for any number of reasons. So it's reasonable to pay a few bucks every month .

I was referring more to the greedy criminal health insurance industry. Everybody is going to be sick or injured in their life. You show me someone who hasn't been one or the other, and they're either lying, or have been damn lucky so far, and it's just a matter of time. Hell, I got my "mandatories" out of the way early on, first by breaking a leg when I was 2, and then getting my tonsils out when I was 5. Haven't been in a hospital since then, and hopefully won't need to be in one for a couple more decades.

Also fortunate that this all took place in the late 60s and early 70s, before the greedy insurance bastards started trying to use every loophole they could find to get out of paying for medical bills. Would have taken me a long time paying that bill off running a lemonade stand or whatever.

[MUSICMANN]

The guy who created Facebook made something. Yeah, it's just some computer code, and a colossal fucking waste of time, in my opinion. But still, it was a creative effort that went into it, and if somebody wanted to pay him for that shit, so be it.

That's a big difference from what a vulture capitalist like Mittens does. Or what the fucking asshole speculator criminals on Wall Street do. Or what health insurance companies do. Which is find ways to steal money from you, while producing NOTHING, and serving nobody but themselves.



Do you even have a clue what Bain Capital was/is. Romney bought failing business's and through restructuring them, made them a profitable and stronger company. If that meant, that instead of the company failing and 300 people losing their jobs and instead only 30 people had to be let go, then that's a win for that company, that after growing would add those 30 jobs or even more back. Some business's were to far gone and had to be closed down and some just needed restructuring and tweaking and probably never had one layoff involved. Back to the tax issue. Do you even pay taxes, because it doesn't sound like you ever owned your own business. I'm self employed and pay taxes quarterly. If my CPA tells me that i'm in a certain tax bracket and i need to pay a certain amount each quarter and i decide to up my tax rate by 10% and pay more, what do you think will happen. I will get a refund back for an over payment. So what did that accomplish. If people who make 250K or over started to pay 40% in taxes that would only bring in a very small amount to pay off the National Debt in that yr. So the question remains, how much is enough. 40%, 50% 80%. This is why ObamaCare has all those hidden taxes. Obama and the demo's know that the amount of taxes that rich people would be paying is just a scratch on the surface and doesn't suffice. The majority of tax payers in this country are people that make 25K to around 200k a yr., and that's who they are targeting. Just this week the amount of people who will have to pay a health insurance penalty is 6 million, 2 million more than what was expected. You add up the amount that will bring in plus the higher premiums that everyone that already has insurance and you really get to the heart of ObamaCare.

[Hardrock69]

OK so here is yet ANOTHER instance where it appears Romney and his lackeys are sabotaging his campaign on purpose. Why are they doing this? By releasing only a single year's worth of returns at this point, he continues to appear as if he has something to hide. What is he hiding? That is the question everyone is asking now....even his own fucking people......I smell mutiny in the air.....if people in his own camp were not jumping ship before....I can see it happening soon....

Damn I'm good. And I don't even have to try. I posted the above at 4:45 AM yesterday

On the 5 o'clock CBS National News yesterday afternoon, there was a segment where they were reporting how many of Mitten's own party members are saying that a) the Republican Campaign needs a turn around, and b) the way to do it (paraphrasing here) is to "get rid of some of the current campaign planners and get some new people in there".

I actually predicted they were going to turn on each other several days ago. :hee:

Now, as for Fascist Trollism:


But it's the truth, so deal with it. The same truth that the Obama cronies and the left media continue to hide and cover on all the false statements not only about Romney but Obama's failed National and Foreign policies.

Oh? Name one false statement about Romney. The Democratic party don't have to make false statements about that fucking tool. He is demonstrating beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is quite capable of destroying his own campaign without any help from Obama or anyone else. It's the truth, so deal with it.


Fast and Furious, Bush's fault.

The practice of "gunwalking", (allowing criminals to buy weapons so they could theoretically be tracked to drug cartels) DID begin in 2006. There were several different operations of that nature. F & F was just the most recent one. It was started in 2009. But the first one (Operation Wide Receiver), was begun in 2006 and was over by 2007, while Chimpy was president.

The Justice Department absolved Eric Holder, saying he had no knowledge of F & F until long after it was well underway. So according to you, Obama was supposed to know about this on some psychic level, when Holder was not even aware of it....right?

Whether Bush or Obama were aware of these operations is debatable, though of course idiots like yourself are going to blame Obama for everything that is done by any minor employees of the US government...down to theft of pencils and erasers from Agriculture Department offices in Rural Montana......


The Economy, Bush's Fault.

No. It was the fault of bankers and Wall Street brokerages and investment banks. The bundling of mortgage-backed securities, which led to the collapse of the economy, was invented by some young turks at Morgan-Stanley in the late 90s, before Bush was even president. Before Obama was even thinking of dreaming about running for president. But you know nothing about Wall Street or bankers, other than how to deposit your welfare checks in the bank every week.....


The Middle East burning and killing of our US ambassador, Bush's Fault


Uh, no, you would need to go back in time and talk to some asshole named Mohammed to pin the blame on all the crap in the Middle East. Or go back to 1949 and bitch at Moshe Dyan and others who decided to seize the land now known as Israel and create a Jewish state out of it.

As it is, there was a massive demonstration yesterday in Libya. Yes, 11 demonstrators were killed, they rioted, burned cars, etc.
But they were angry at the Islamic militia organizations who they said were responsible for the death of our ambassador. They destroyed the buildings housing the offices of those organizations, and caused the people in those militias to flee. An extreme majority of Libyans are angry at the murder of our ambassador. Now that Kadahfi the Asshole is dead, they are rebuilding their country and don't want any assholes (terrists) to fuck shit up for them.


...and that little first amendment, Freedom of Speech, that allows people in this country to make or say anything be it a youtube video or whatever.

Yes we have Freedom of Speech. How is that relevant to any of this crap? The attack in Libya had nothing to do with any videos on Youtube. It had been planned for months according to Libyan officials. But since you are not very articulate, and have trouble stringing coherent sentences together, I can understand how you would not know this.



So i guess when Iran finally builds that nuke and fires it at Israel, that will be Bush's fault too. If Iran decides to turn a missile on Poland or possibly Russia turning a missile on someone, that's Bush's fault as well.

No dumbass, it will be Iran's fault. Not Bush's, not Obama's, not Clinton's, not your Lord and Savior Ronny Ray-gun. I suppose if North Korea decides to fire a missile at someone it will be the fault of whoever our president is at that time, according to your 1st-grade reasoning. :baby:


Obama = Weak and Blame. That's not what this country needs and if you think that way you're as fucked up as Obama and his socialist wing-nuts.

"Obama = Weak and Blame". That is one of the most nonsensical parts of your incoherent mumblings you have posted here. We all know you have an IQ less than the size of your shoe, but at least try to make some kind of point. So far all there is from you is a bunch of mindless babbling that has no basis in reality.



I love how you omit Obama's failures....

I find it hilarious how you are omitting Obama's successes......


........and want to focus in on what i said about Israel, which in turn is a huge travesty that Obama and the Democrats is doing to the only Democratic country in the middle east and wanting what can only be labeled as a witch hunt to Catholic's in this country.

Actually the only real democratic country in the Middle East is Turkey. But I would not expect you to understand that. You might want to take some remedial English courses. Your grammar is only slightly superior to some of the inbred hillbillies that live in the backwoods of Kentucky......


This sums up you left Liberal wing-nuts and your backwards ass views.

You obviously know nothing of politics. It is the stated goal of the Retardlican Party to "take our country back to the 1950s".

The 1950s are long gone. 60 years gone. Only an idiot would want to try to turn back the clock and live in a fucked up era of Mcarthyism, bigotry and Cold War fear. But apparently, you are stupid enough that you somehow think such a thing would be a dream come true.

You know, this is an adult forum. We tolerate the occasional spouting off from children like yourself, but I think you should consider telling your Mommy that people at this forum are discussing grown-up subjects you do not understand.:baby:

Your Mommy might help you to understand some adult words like "go fuck yourself" or "go jack off over your Uncle Ronnie Ray-gun photo collection".

Perhaps in 10 or 15 years when you graduate high school...at age 25....you can come back here and be able to contribute something of value.....

But somehow I doubt it....

[Hardrock69]

Do you even have a clue what Bain Capital was/is. Romney bought failing business's and through restructuring them, made them a profitable and stronger company. If that meant, that instead of the company failing and 300 people losing their jobs and instead only 30 people had to be let go, then that's a win for that company, that after growing would add those 30 jobs or even more back. Some business's were to far gone and had to be closed down and some just needed restructuring and tweaking and probably never had one layoff involved.

So offshoring jobs to prison kamps in China is somehow seen as a noble thing by you?

Figures. That is what has helped to bring this country to ruin. And the Republicans go on and on about how 'patriotic' they are, while they thwart any attempts to regulate the banking industry, while they thwart attempts to stop giving tax breaks to companies like Bain Capital who send jobs overseas.....among other things.

Destroying our country in the name of "patriotism" seems pretty UN-patriotic if you ask me.

But then, aside from that, the Republican Party will say anything in order to get the black man out of the White House.

Whatever.

[Nickdfresh]

You're a fucking retard. He paid 20% in taxes and another 13% was given to charity. Way to continue with a useless left liberal talking point. So i guess Bill Gates or Steve Jobs didn't earn their money either. Or how about the person who invented the paperclip or any other business that became very successful. Some of you here are just not that bright of a light bulb.You guys need to apply for those shovel ready Obama jobs, because smart thinking is definitely not in your DNA.

Fuck off, he paid 14+/-% and gave $4M to charity in an election year. Whoopty fucking doo! I bet he gave shit to charity like the majority of wealthy-inherits do in many previous tax returns...

[ZahZoo]

It's more about the offshore accounts, and the dishonesty - speaks to their lack of integrity and dollar-worship. Now Ryan stuck his foot in it too...

My take is this whole issue is more about campaign bullshit than anything else. Somewhere in the bowels of the Democratic strategy machine a brainfart emerged to paint Romney as some evil, dishonest tax dodging rich crook... Some of what's been bandied about may sound unscrupulous... but there's little in the way of facts on the table. So you sow the seeds of doubt. That's negative campaign strategy at it's finest.

Sure, there's the fantasy dream of finding the next leader of the US that is honest, squeaky clean morally, patriotically centered and a 100% law abiding good guy... Nice target but one that's never been hit any closer than the far outer rings... Never a bulls-eye, ever.

From my perspective... this issue does little to establish a measure of character among any political candidate. It's a touchy subject among most of the electorate mainly because most are paying more in taxes than the rich guys running for federal offices. Nobody likes paying taxes... nobody.

The tax laws in the US have far too many loopholes and grey areas that it takes a pretty smart person to minimize their tax burden as income goes above upper-middle class. You only get into that area by having money and you maximize it by shifting to investment income because the system is favored there. Very few "rich" people exist that got there earning income in a traditional way... working at a paying job. When they do make enough the smart move is to shift that income into investments that out perform your salary income. This is how wealth works more or less.

Since we don't have any working stiffs in Washington running for President... nor the Senate or Congress... but the whole field is populated by wealthy people who are smart enough to manage their income and minimize their tax burden... what fucking good does it do to hold one rich guy's tax approach over another? They all play the system to the maximum benefit and there's more than one good or bad or otherwise approach...

Actually I'd value the more successful guys from a leadership perspective because they had to have very good business instincts and leadership strength to achieve success in this area.

[jhale667]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/198538_490497737642150_1126941483_n_zps81ef7b0c.jp g

[Hardrock69]

Every tax expert interviewed on CNN, ABC News, etc. all say the same thing: If Mittens had taken all the deductions he legally could have he only would have paid 10% in taxes.

This is why he only has released his 2011 return. He wanted to attempt to show everyone how he is paying his "fair share" of taxes. 10% would have only made him look like he usually looks....a rich cocksucker who does not pay much in taxes at all. And it does not take the Democratic Party to make him appear this way...again, he is doing fine all on his own. :hee:

He goes on and on about how he pays what he should by law, but fails to mention all the offshore accounts he has where he pays NO tax.

He is fucking up, and is going to lose the election. :hee:

Money can't buy him a brain....

[Hardrock69]

Actually I'd value the more successful guys from a leadership perspective because they had to have very good business instincts and leadership strength to achieve success in this area.

I would too if they were actually a businessman who earned their cash instead of marrying into it....;)

[Nitro Express]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/198538_490497737642150_1126941483_n_zps81ef7b0c.jp g

That's one of Steve Benson's cartoons. He's a former Mormon. I know him. The mormon prophet Ezra Taft Benson was his grandfather. He's an excellent cartoonist.

[Hardrock69]

I LOVE his cartoons. He is usually spot on as far as subject matter, but his style is absolutely fantastic and he manages to get the point across in very unique and interesting ways!

[Nitro Express]

Life sucks. Kill yourself before your fantasy becomes real.

[BigBadBrian]

Damn I'm good. And I don't even have to try. I posted the above at 4:45 AM yesterday


You had posted something everyone already knew though that dim little bulb in your head had just flickered on!

"You certainly do have a talent for trivializing the momentous and complicating the obvious. You ever considered running for Congress? " - Brig. General James Kemper, Battle of Gettysburg, Gettysburg, 1993

:lmao:

[sadaist]

We can argue until we are blue whether he paid too muc, paid too little, how he aquired his money, etc....but the 1 simple fact remains:



Harry Reid is a motherfucking LIAR!!!!!!!


Spineless piece of shit is a disgrace to the American flag which he claims to represent. He became a millionaire as a Senator. Fucking dirty cheating backroom deal lying cocksucker piece of shit.



* Harry Reid is the type of guy that argues Van Halen got better & deeper musically with Sammy Hagar in the band.

[Nickdfresh]

I could give a shit about Harry Reid, but Nitrous Oxide already tried the silly "Reid said he paid no taxes" argument when it is pretty obvious that Reid was talking about how he provided no evidence via tax returns of his taxes paid...

[FORD]

Yeah, Harry is definitely spineless. But he wasn't lying about Willard Mittens Romney's serial tax dodging.

[FORD]

Ronald Reagan says Mittens should pay more taxes.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTBt5APga7Q

[jhale667]

Reid is a douche, but if you have an issue with that particular statement, you're pretty much in the tank for ShiTT WRONGney, because he was dead-on with that one.

[DLR Bridge]

One thing I've learned around here is that folks who lean left, present party included, will occasionally trash a Democrat for something they've said, done or not done. But the right leaning folks looooove their amazingly infallible Republicans and their every fucking move! Just an observation.

[Nitro Express]

One thing I've learned around here is that folks who lean left, present party included, will occasionally trash a Democrat for something they've said, done or not done. But the right leaning folks looooove their amazingly infallible Republicans and their every fucking move! Just an observation.

Not really. I've heard plenty of Republican bash George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Those guys had the whole congress and the executive branch and did nothing good with it. They set us on the course of fascism which Obama has continued. Both parties need an enema badly because they are just pushing forward the agenda of the multinational corporations and banks.

[Nitro Express]

Yeah, Harry is definitely spineless. But he wasn't lying about Willard Mittens Romney's serial tax dodging.

You guys sound like the birthers on Obama's birth certificate. LOL! The problem is because Romney is white I can't call you all racists.

[DLR Bridge]

Talkin bout the peeps around here.

[jhale667]

Talkin bout the peeps around here.

And it's an accurate assessment.

[jhale667]

You guys sound like the birthers on Obama's birth certificate. LOL! The problem is because Romney is white I can't call you all racists.

Stupid analogy. The birther issue is entirely manufactured, whereas Romney really IS cheating on his taxes.

[Nitro Express]

All I can say is take the rhetoric and the criticism with a grain of salt. Don't blindly fall party lines. Do your own research on each candidate and really the best research is talking to someone who actually knows these people. If they have been a governor of a state then ask several people who lived in the state when that person ran it. What's funny about Obama. I couldn't find anyone that knew anything about the guy. With Bill Clinton I asked people who lived in Arkansas. With Bush I asked people who lived in Texas. With Mitt I know people who have worked for him, gone to church with him, worked with him during the olympics, and had him as their governor. So I probably know more about him than any candidate. All I know about Obama is his record of fours years as president.

[Nitro Express]

Stupid analogy. The birther issue is entirely manufactured, whereas Romney really IS cheating on his taxes.

How has he cheated on his taxes? Be specific. I just hear people complain he should pay more. I know people who defer their taxes so they don't have to pay them. They hire hot shot tax attorneys who only handle a few tax clients and they take it right to the wire. They defer the taxes until the person dies. That's the racket. Mitt could have pulled that one but didn't. He paid his tax and with the tax code, get ten accountants get ten different opinions.

[sadaist]

Wasn't trying to stick up for Mitt. Just pointing out and kinda venting that Harry Reid is a dickhead and probably just as crooked as any of them. Fucking hate politicians more & more every day. I even stopped watching any news a few months ago. So tired of it all. Watched all 5 seasons of Breaking Bad instead. (and Futurama)

[sadaist]

The problem is because Romney is white I can't call you all racists.


Maybe they hate white people? Racists hate white people. Or maybe they just hate Mormons? I kinda do. Pisses me off how they are always happy with life. They need to be miserable like the rest of us.

[FORD]

How has he cheated on his taxes? Be specific. I just hear people complain he should pay more. I know people who defer their taxes so they don't have to pay them. They hire hot shot tax attorneys who only handle a few tax clients and they take it right to the wire. They defer the taxes until the person dies. That's the racket. Mitt could have pulled that one but didn't. He paid his tax and with the tax code, get ten accountants get ten different opinions.

I just heard that about 2/3 of that tax record he just released was details of all the money he stashed offshore. While this may be technically legal, (due to bought off shills in Congress changing laws) it's still cheating. And it's killing this country only slightly less than all the jobs he's outsourced. Both are examples of billions of dollars that Mittens and his fellow criminal 1%'ers have literally stolen from the US economy.

[Hardrock69]

True. The ONLY reason to stash boatloads of cash offshore is to avoid paying taxes.

When you have 500 million dollars in the bank, why the fuck do you need to worry abouy paying taxes? The interest income alone at 3% is 1.5 million a year. Even paying 30% of that in taxes, you will still be left with 1.05 million......and that is not even touching the original 500 mill......

Who the fuck would be unable to pay their bills with 1.05 million bucks a year?

Mittens has not one fucking reason to stash his money overseas. :mad:

[jhale667]

Mittens has not one fucking reason to stash his money overseas. :mad:

Just one, actually... GREED.

[Dr. Love]

It's greed that makes a person want to keep their own money? And here I thought I wanted to lower my tax burden because I felt like I had a right to keep money that I worked my ass off to earn.

Guess I'm just greedy!

[Seshmeister]

Greed is by nature all about scale and amounts.

I'm willing to take a mad guess that you don't have $300 000 000 stashed away.

From your posts I also don't think you the kind of person that spends their time at a $50 000 a seat dinner complaining about the poor.

[Hardrock69]

Well, yes, Jay. Even though he has so much money, he could pay whatever taxes he needs to pay, and his GREAT-GRANDCHILDREN would still have enough cash to live out their days in royal splendor.

So it is greed, pure and simple. Well, and fear of being a "po' folks". He would rather die than even live as a middle-class human.

[BigBadBrian]

It's greed that makes a person want to keep their own money? And here I thought I wanted to lower my tax burden because I felt like I had a right to keep money that I worked my ass off to earn.

Guess I'm just greedy!

Democrats hate capitalism, the free market economy, and especially that someone else has more than them. Yet I'll bet all these fucking hypocrites take every income tax deduction they are entitled to by law....just like Mitt Romney. :thumb:

[Dr. Love]

I ain't voting for Romney and I think he is a douche, but I find it hard to fault anyone for wanting to keep their own money rather than give it to the government. If I had 300 million dollars I'd still do everything I legally could to minimize my tax burden ... Just like everyone else does.

It sure is easy to say that it's greed when it's not your money.

[DLR Bridge]

Democrats hate...that someone else has more than them.

Absolute horse shit.

[jhale667]

Democrats hate capitalism, the free market economy, and especially that someone else has more than them.

Ever get tired of A) being such a huge loser and B ) repeating the same tired bullshit you KNOW are lies even as you type them?

[ZahZoo]

It's greed that makes a person want to keep their own money? And here I thought I wanted to lower my tax burden because I felt like I had a right to keep money that I worked my ass off to earn.

Guess I'm just greedy!

That's the very reason I posted earlier that this issue is a non-issue. I don't know why the debate even continues.

Nobody wants to pay more taxes and nobody will pay more than they are legally obligated to.

I don't give a rat's ass what a candidate paid in taxes or what loopholes they used to get there. To me it's not about how they work the system... I want to knowwhat they plan to do to simplfy the system and level the whole playing field for everyone. That's it...

If they don't have a plan to seriously address this issue... they don't deserve a vote.

[BigBadBrian]

While this may be technically legal, (due to bought off shills in Congress changing laws) it's still cheating.

FORD, you're trying to be funny, right?

[FORD]

FORD, you're trying to be funny, right?

No, I'm completely serious.

I don't believe that inheritance rich shitbags and vulture capitalist criminals (Mittens is both) who have done nothing to EARN money should pay less taxes than people who actually earn a living. Including rich people who actually do something to earn their money.

[BigBadBrian]

No, I'm completely serious.

I don't believe that inheritance rich shitbags and vulture capitalist criminals (Mittens is both) who have done nothing to EARN money should pay less taxes than people who actually earn a living. Including rich people who actually do something to earn their money.

Your anger is vented at the wrong people. You can't fault the American public for deducting all they can from their taxes just like you can't blame them for shopping for the best deal.

You need to blame Congress, not the taxpayer.

[FORD]

Your anger is vented at the wrong people. You can't fault the American public for deducting all they can from their taxes just like you can't blame them for shopping for the best deal.

You need to blame Congress, not the taxpayer.

I DO blame Congress. And the bankster felons who pay them off. But that doesn't mean Mittens isn't still a crooked douchebag.

[jhale667]

Everyone tries to save as much as they can on their taxes, that's a given. But if you're to the point where you're off-shoring cash in the Caymans (yes, it's legal, but that doesn't make it right), you're probably a scumbag.

[BigBadBrian]

Everyone tries to save as much as they can on their taxes, that's a given. But if you're to the point where you're off-shoring cash in the Caymans (yes, it's legal, but that doesn't make it right), you're probably a scumbag.

Again, if it's legal....

[jhale667]

Again, if it's legal....

...Then the system needs to be fixed. You know who else is really good at hiding cash to avoid taxes? Criminals...

[Dr. Love]

Everyone tries to save as much as they can on their taxes, that's a given. But if you're to the point where you're off-shoring cash in the Caymans (yes, it's legal, but that doesn't make it right), you're probably a scumbag.

It's cause they're all greedy. If they were good citizens, they'd pay the maximum amount for the good of the nation!

[Nickdfresh]

It's cause they're all greedy. If they were good citizens, they'd pay the maximum amount for the good of the nation!

How about not incessantly lobbying and bribing the gov't so they don't have to pay the same rates as the middle class for doing nothing?

[Nitro Express]

10% flat VAT tax across the board. Everyone pays and the rich will pay more.

[Dr. Love]

How about not incessantly lobbying and bribing the gov't so they don't have to pay the same rates as the middle class for doing nothing?

How about a sensible tax rate that is the same for everyone and everything - individuals, corporations, capital gains, etc. No deductions, not bull shit.

[Seshmeister]

10% flat VAT tax across the board. Everyone pays and the rich will pay more.

Just another scam to cut taxes for the rich far more of poorer people's spending goes on VAT goods.

[BigBadBrian]

...Then the system needs to be fixed.

I agree with you on this. Income from working or investment income all needs to be taxed at the same rate. Estate income is another story.

[Nitro Express]

Just another scam to cut taxes for the rich far more of poorer people's spending goes on VAT goods.

You are so fixated on getting the rich. 10% works great for church's, I don't see why it wouldn't work for the government. We tried to make things fair in the last century. It was called communism. It didn't work. It's usually some rich people behind the scenes blaming other rich people to stir the masses up and then those rich people benefit from the revolution. There is always going to be rich people Sesh. You can't wipe them out. All you can do is have some regulations to make the game a little more fair.

[Nitro Express]

I agree with you on this. Income from working or investment income all needs to be taxed at the same rate. Estate income is another story.

I think savings should be tax free. I think it's consumption that should be taxed. In Singapore the maximum income tax rate is 20%. It seems to be working. You don't see beggars in the streets but then the work ethic is better over there.

[Seshmeister]

Flat taxes are hardly a new concept, every country has looked at it before and come to the conclusion they are horribly unfair. Doing it with a sales tax would be even worse.

Not withstanding the fairness issue, we have VAT here and the fraud is horrendous. It means you get suppliers to collect the tax for you and then hope that they hand it over to the government?

For a start every time a company goes bust you lose months of VAT revenue.

[Seshmeister]

I think savings should be tax free. I think it's consumption that should be taxed. In Singapore the maximum income tax rate is 20%. It seems to be working. You don't see beggars in the streets but then the work ethic is better over there.

You have the eyes of a holiday making tourist...

http://www.singaporedemocrat.org/poverty.html





The Tuth About Poverty


THERE IS THIS MYTH THAT Singapore is a rich country and its citizens are well-taken care of. Nothing could be further from the truth. The 1998 United Nations Human Development Index showed that Singapore ranked 28 on the list behind countries like Barbados and Malta.

In fact many households earn so little that they cannot afford to give their children pocket-money for school, resulting in the students going hungry for the day. The following is a snapshot of some of the more recent cases uncovered:

In 1999, nearly 2,000 children did not attend school because their parents could not afford it. Mohammad Hirwan is one such child. His parents earn about US $600 a month, hardly sufficient for a family in Singapore. As a result the boy\'s parents had to take him out of school when he was nine. His siblings did not fare any better. All of them dropped out of school because of poverty.

A technician lost his job and had no income for about half a year had to watch his two young children live on biscuits for days. A social worker said that the man had no money even to take the bus to find a job. The family was literally penniless.

A man with a wife who suffered from manic depression, asthma and diabetes had to stay home to look after her. Whenever he found some contract work, his children took turns to skip school to watch over her. The family had to survive on US$200 a month they received from welfare organizations.

A young divorcee cannot find enough money to but schoolbooks and food for her children. Most days, by 10pm, her sons ask if there is any more food. They cannot afford to eat and live mainly on fried rice.

The elderly poor in Singapore lead just as tragic lives. Many have to, literally, work until they die:

An elderly woman in her seventies was fatally run over by a hit-and-run driver as she was returning home at 6:40 am, working as a night-shift toilet cleaner. Not only did the elderly lady have to toil in the night shift, her pay was so meagre that she could not even afford to eat lunch. To top it off she had to save to help take care of her 50-year old mentally retarded daughter.

Another septuagenarian woman worked as cleaner for a measly US$200 a month which she had to share with her 70-year-old sister. The sisters are so hard-up that even vegetables during meal-times are a luxury.

A 77-year-old toilet cleaner was on his way home around midnight after work. He couldn't afford the fare for a bus ride and had to walk home. He was hit and killed by a car.

A 96-year-old woman has to go to the garbage dump to pick out odds and ends to sell to support herself.

A 76-year-old man ran a little business selling household provisions. His paltry income had to support middle-aged daughters who are wheelchair bound and suffering from polio since birth, and a wife who is senile and incapable of looking after herself. His problems took a dramatic turn for the worse when the Government upped the rental of his shop from US$150 to US$450 a month.

Below are some statistical indicators of the poor in Singapore:

In 1999 monthly wages for low-skilled workers decreased by as much as 34 percent.

Nearly 30 percent of households were not earning enough to afford the minimum standard of living. The Government estimates that the subsistence level in Singapore is US$600 for a household of four people—a conservative figure for a country that is consistently ranked among the most expensive cities in the world to live in.

Between 1998 and 1999, the average household monthly income of the poorest 10 percent of the population decreased by nearly 50 percent. The following year, the figure nose-dived by another 54 percent.

In 1990, the richest 10 percent of households earned 15.6 times more than the poorest 10 percent. (Households with no income-earners are excluded from this category.) By 2000, the gap widened: the richest 10 percent earned 36 times more than the poorest 10 percent.

The number of households with monthly incomes of less than $3,000 was 40 percent in 1998 but increased to 42 percent in 1999.

According to the 2000 Census, 12.6 per cent of households earned less than $1,000 per month. A monthly gross total household income of $1,500 and below is considered “poor” in Singapore.

A more recent survey found that 16 per cent of the respondents had family members who often went hungry.

In 2004 37,823 households could not afford to buy their own flats or rent homes in the open market.

Because of the system, an increasing number of Singaporeans are driven to seek the help of mental professionals:

In 1990 there were 88,000 such cases. This figure escalated to 147,000 in 1998.

In 1990 only 8.4 percent of Singaporeans suffered from neurotic disorders such as anxiety and depression. In 1998 16.6 percent succumbed to these disorders. (This problem continues into the present with a newspaper report highlighting that more people are being diagnosed with mental disorders due to financial woes.)

In 1997, psychiatrists noted a sharp increase in the number of teenagers attempting suicide and attributed the phenomenon to the youths being alienated from their parents. The main reason cited is the stressful lifestyle and high cost of living.

In 1999, a consumer health survey found that among the various Asian societies, Singaporeans are most likely to have suffered depression, stress, and fatigue. In addition, job-related stresses continue to be the biggest problems for working Singaporeans.

In 2003, a study found that Singaporeans aged between 20 and 49 years made up 70 percent of suicide cases from 1997 to 2001. They also constitute the main bulk of cases of attempted suicides.

Between 1994 and 1998 the number of divorces shot up from 3,772 to 5,651 cases.

Social workers attribute this occurrence to intense stress experienced by workers who have households, children and aging parents to take care. National figures compiled by the Registry of Births and Deaths show that on average, 1 person takes his/her own life in Singapore every day.

Visitors often remark about the tidiness and orderliness of Singapore. It is because of such an impression that makes the cases of poverty described in the earlier paragraphs so hard to believe.

The reason why the poor in Singapore are not more visible is that the Ministry of Community Development and Sports conduct frequent raids through its Destitute Persons Service, looking for and picking up vagrants. If Singapore seems to have less destitute, it is not because the numbers are not present. The real reason is that the PAP Government is just much more efficient in clearing the streets of homeless people.

For all the hype claiming that Singapore is a near-paradise, 20 percent of its citizens indicated that they want to leave the country, predominantly because of the stressful lifestyle and high cost of living. These would-be émigrés are mainly from the strata of younger, higher-income professionals.

With the costs of living rising, or at least not decreasing, and wages continuing to be depressed, Singaporeans are going to facing increasingly dire economic times. Without any rights, their problems will persist.

[Nitro Express]

Actually I stayed with people who have lived there for 20 years. It's not my first time to Singapore and yes you can dig up all sorts of stuff on the internet to make any point you wish. Much like I can find a real estate appraiser to give me any appraisal I want or how statistics can be manipulated to make any point you want.

You don't want any rich people. You seem to think the government has all the solutions. You seem to hate constitutions that glorify personal freedom and sovereignty. Face it Shesh, you are a Marxist. I have no use for you.

[Seshmeister]

Marxist? LOL!

Spoken like a stockbroker/landlord born into wealth.

Over the years I've noticed that most rich people actually don't do very much for the world. Very few actually produce anything or do anything of any use to the world anywhere near in proportion to how they are rewarded.

For every comfortable ER doctor there are 10 property speculators who are 10 times more wealthy.

The system is rigged.

At least you benefit from that, the sad cases are the ones like Brian who are being screwed and welcome it. :)

[Nickdfresh]

How about a sensible tax rate that is the same for everyone and everything - individuals, corporations, capital gains, etc. No deductions, not bull shit.

I dunno? How about it? A guy like fucking Romney that was born rich and now receives most of his income from interest should have to pay more than 14% and there should be a substantial death tax...

And that was ONE FUCKING, SANITIZED bullshit return with inflated charitable donations. These guys are full of shit and Romney deserves to get trumped in November...

[Nickdfresh]

Marxist? LOL!

Spoken like a stockbroker/landlord born into wealth.

Over the years I've noticed that most rich people actually don't do very much for the world. Very few actually produce anything or do anything of any use to the world anywhere near in proportion to how they are rewarded.

For every comfortable ER doctor there are 10 property speculators who are 10 times more wealthy.

The system is rigged.

At least you benefit from that, the sad cases are the ones like Brian who are being screwed and welcome it. :)

Exactly! Most obsessed with taxes are people who didn't earn anything other than being fortunate to be born in the right family, and most I've personally met tend to be wretched douches who've done little and desperately just want to hold onto what their ancestors made...

[Dr. Love]

I dunno? How about it? A guy like fucking Romney that was born rich and now receives most of his income from interest should have to pay more than 14% and there should be a substantial death tax...

And that was ONE FUCKING, SANITIZED bullshit return with inflated charitable donations. These guys are full of shit and Romney deserves to get trumped in November...

He will. I still think he will be beaten by about 7 points.

[ZahZoo]

How about a sensible tax rate that is the same for everyone and everything - individuals, corporations, capital gains, etc. No deductions, not bull shit.

That's a great starting point!!

This thread is indicative of why it seems impossible to change the current tax system. Our discussion should be focused on a solution. It's ok to hold up the Romney's of the world to demonstrate why the current system sucks... but not get caught up bitching about the abusers so much we forget to put time and energy into a solution.

Despite our differences in opinion here... it seems clear all agree change is necessary. Most of the basics aren't that far apart... The current leaders would rather we continue fighting about bullshit so they can continue to keep the game in their favor. At some point enough of us are going to get fed up and organize... given our age/generation our time is approaching...

[tbone888]

I see Bono earlier in this thread...isnt he a notorious tax dodger?

[Seshmeister]

Yeah it's funny, you have all the rappers pretending to be worth millions and millions and then you have Bono who actually is, pretending he isn't.

[Seshmeister]

And that was ONE FUCKING, SANITIZED bullshit return with inflated charitable donations.

Charitable donations or cult donations?

[Seshmeister]

How about a sensible tax rate that is the same for everyone and everything - individuals, corporations, capital gains, etc. No deductions, not bull shit.

Who does that leave to actually pay for the campaign to get it?

[FORD]

I see Bono earlier in this thread...isnt he a notorious tax dodger?

Bono isn't running for President of the United States. And at least he actually donates to charities which do something positive. (As opposed to running political slander campaigns in other states, like the cult Mittens gives his money to)

[jhale667]

Bono isn't running for President of the United States. And at least he actually donates to charities which do something positive. (As opposed to running political slander campaigns in other states, like the cult Mittens gives his money to)

Don't forget the H8 campaigns mixed in with their slanderous ones....

[tbone888]

Ahh Bono...wonder what his reaction will be when he finds out hes not Jesus. Anyway, Im sure youre in favor of him paying his "fair share" of taxes and most certainly stripping any of his offspring of the entire 900 million (and growing) fortune he has amassed when he passes?

[FORD]

I'm sure Bono is well aware that he is not Jesus, given the number of songs he's written about Jesus.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6vNQf_tne0