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Hardrock69
09-24-2012, 04:34 AM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-22/news/os-nasa-space-outpost-20120922_1_moon-rocks-space-launch-system-nasa-chief-charlie-bolden



WASHINGTON — Top NASA officials have picked a leading candidate for the agency's next major mission: construction of a new outpost that would send astronauts farther from Earth than at any time in history.

The so-called "gateway spacecraft" would hover in orbit on the far side of the moon, support a small astronaut crew and function as a staging area for future missions to the moon and Mars.

At 277,000 miles from Earth, the outpost would be far more remote than the current space station, which orbits a little more than 200 miles above Earth. The distance raises complex questions of how to protect astronauts from the radiation of deep space — and rescue them if something goes wrong.

NASA Chief Charlie Bolden briefed the White House earlier this month on details of the proposal, but it's unclear whether it has the administration's support. Of critical importance is the price tag, which would certainly run into the billions of dollars.

Documents obtained by the Orlando Sentinel show that NASA wants to build a small outpost — likely with parts left over from the $100 billion International Space Station — at what's known as the Earth-Moon Lagrange Point 2, a spot about 38,000 miles from the moon and 277,000 miles from Earth.

At that location, the combined gravities of the Earth and moon reach equilibrium, making it possible to "stick" an outpost there with minimal power required to keep it in place.

To get there, NASA would use the massive rocket and space capsule that it is developing as a successor to the retired space shuttle. A first flight of that rocket is planned for 2017, and construction of the outpost would begin two years later, according to NASA planning documents.

Potential missions include the study of nearby asteroids or dispatching robotic trips to the moon that would gather moon rocks and bring them back to astronauts at the outpost. The outpost also would lay the groundwork for more-ambitious trips to Mars' moons and even Mars itself, about 140 million miles away on average.

Placing a "spacecraft at the Earth-Moon Lagrange point beyond the moon as a test area for human access to deep space is the best near-term option to develop required flight experience and mitigate risk," concluded the NASA report.

From NASA's perspective, the outpost solves several problems.

It gives purpose to the Orion space capsule and the Space Launch System rocket, which are being developed at a cost of about $3 billion annually. It involves NASA's international partners, as blueprints for the outpost suggest using a Russian-built module and components from Italy. And the outpost would represent a baby step toward NASA's ultimate goal: human footprints on Mars.

But how the idea — and cost — play with President Barack Obama, Congress and the public remains a major question. The price tag is never mentioned in the NASA report.

Spending is being slashed across the federal government in the name of deficit reduction; it's unlikely that NASA in coming years can get more than its current budget of $17.7 billion — if that.

The planning documents indicate the outpost is possible only with "modest increases" to the current budget — and that presumes none of the cost overruns that have characterized recent NASA projects. Indeed, the first construction flight in 2019 is labeled "unfunded" in briefing charts, as is a robotic "sample return" moon mission in 2022.

One NASA supporter in Congress — U.S. Rep. Bill Posey, R-Rockledge — said he liked the idea. But he said it would require strong White House backing to convince Congress to finance it.

NASA funding "always has been very precarious," Posey said. "And money is going to get tighter."

The White House did not respond to a request for comment, and a NASA statement was noncommittal about the outpost.

"There are many options — and many routes — being discussed on our way to the Red Planet," said spokesman David Weaver. "In addition to the moon and an asteroid, other options may be considered as we look for ways to buy down risk — and make it easier — to get to Mars.

A second major concern is astronaut safety. It will take days to get to the outpost — the farthest NASA has flown humans since the moon missions of 40 years ago — making rescue and supply missions difficult. The planning documents are unclear on whether astronauts would be permanently stationed at the outpost or there part time.

Another concern is how NASA intends to address the dangers of deep space, especially radiation.

The outpost would be more vulnerable to space radiation because it would be largely beyond the protective shield of Earth's magnetic field, said scientists with the National Space Biomedical Research Institute.

"It is significantly more difficult to shield and protect their [astronauts'] health" at that location, said Jeff Chancellor, an NSBRI scientist.

These worries are not lost on NASA officials. The planning documents note that an outpost mission would require a "culture change" that includes the "acceptance of risk significantly different" from the shuttle program, which lost two crews in 1986 and 2003.

Still, the idea has the potential benefit of focusing NASA's human-spaceflight program, which has languished in recent years.

The troubled Constellation program, started under President George W. Bush to return astronauts to the moon by 2020, was canceled under Obama for being behind schedule and over budget. Then Obama and Congress launched the SLS heavy-rocket program with no clear destination — though the idea of a manned mission to an asteroid was frequently mentioned.

Stalking both these efforts have been lingering questions on whether there is enough money and political will to sustain an ambitious human-spaceflight program. In 2009, a blue-ribbon panel of experts warned of the dangers of "pursuing goals that do not match allocated resources."

A member of that panel — former NASA astronaut and space-station commander Leroy Chiao — had mixed feelings about the outpost idea.

A station beyond the the moon carried a "dramatically higher" risk of radiation, he said, and might not provide as much "value" for the investment as a "human-tended lunar base."

But Chiao added that the outpost idea "makes sense for future fuel depots, and possibly for human-tended stations as a jumping off point for deeper space exploration."

Nitro Express
09-24-2012, 04:58 AM
There's no threat to motivate the politicians to work together. We went to the moon to beat the Russians because it looked like they were going to do it. Today we have no rival to compete with. In many ways the Russians were our best friends during the cold war. Once they fell, there was nobody to put a check on the US and that is why we have invaded so many countries and started wars for money. When you are the only one left with a big hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Hardrock69
09-24-2012, 06:31 AM
Take your bullshit about war and politics to the Front Line. This is a thread about space exploration.

BigBadBrian
09-24-2012, 08:00 AM
The outpost also would lay the groundwork for more-ambitious trips to Mars' moons and even Mars itself, about 140 million miles away on average.[/url]

Not manned flight. A round-trip with current space propulsion technology would take +2years.

Hardrock69
09-24-2012, 10:42 PM
You would most likely be looking at scenarios out of sci-fi horror movies where the astronauts go mad on the way to Mars, or on the way back.

And despite the fact the government has the technology to get to Mars and back at speeds faster than light, they are not going to let the public know about it. The powers that be would rather waste billions of our taxpayer dollars and possibly the lives of some astronauts than to let everyone in on their current technology......

DONNIEP
09-24-2012, 10:46 PM
And despite the fact the government has the technology to get to Mars and back at speeds faster than light, they are not going to let the public know about it. The powers that be would rather waste billions of our taxpayer dollars and possibly the lives of some astronauts than to let everyone in on their current technology......

Didn't you see what happened to the Event Horizon? :biggrin:

vandeleur
09-24-2012, 10:51 PM
Wasn't there some crazy Russians who were training for an unspecified mars mission and been basically locked up for over 18 months and they were all happy as pigs in the proverbial , saw it on the news some time back.

vandeleur
09-24-2012, 10:52 PM
Event horizon is the total answer .. Time dilation is the key .
I watched it and felt like I had lost years off my life :biggrin:

DONNIEP
09-24-2012, 11:39 PM
Event horizon is the total answer .. Time dilation is the key .
I watched it and felt like I had lost years off my life :biggrin:

You didn't dig it? I actually liked it even though I was expecting not to.

vandeleur
09-25-2012, 12:20 AM
Nah , didn't do it for me . Tho it's been a while since I watched it .

vandeleur
09-25-2012, 12:28 AM
At the time I remember thinking that could have been a lot better .
But am always careful how I slag off sci fi movies and this is the reason .
We have this guy at work who always says the wrong things , it cant be deliberate or he would be a comic genius .
when discussing the star wars trilogy he was talking his usual bollocks but came out with the classic
" empire strikes back was great but that return of the Jedi was a bit far fetched " :biggrin:

bueno bob
09-25-2012, 12:29 AM
Event Horizon was fucking BAD ASS. Sam Neill is THE man.

vandeleur
09-25-2012, 12:31 AM
It should be its got sir larry fishburne in ,but it still isn't Lol

IMHO :D

bueno bob
09-25-2012, 12:34 AM
Did you see it in the theater? I did, and I honestly found it a better experience than when I watched it again on VHS later. I think the closed, dark theater added the right type of ambiance to the film. Sitting in front of my TV with a bag of pork rinds with the lights on a year later didn't really do it as much. I think, in some cases, movies can be improved on with the "theater experience" intact.

vandeleur
09-25-2012, 12:36 AM
There you have me I didn't see it at the movies , and I agree certain movies just work better at the cinema

Nitro Express
09-25-2012, 12:39 AM
The problem getting to Mars is the human body goes to pot in zero gravity. You lose a lot of bone and muscle mass. You could send an olympic athletes to Mars and you would get a basket case back.

DONNIEP
09-25-2012, 12:54 AM
Did you see it in the theater? I did, and I honestly found it a better experience than when I watched it again on VHS later. I think the closed, dark theater added the right type of ambiance to the film. Sitting in front of my TV with a bag of pork rinds with the lights on a year later didn't really do it as much. I think, in some cases, movies can be improved on with the "theater experience" intact.

When I watched it for the first time I was at home, alone. I have my own little ritual - bowl of popcorn, big giant Diet Coke, no lights on at all, just the TV. No distractions. And the home theatre sound system is turned up so that you feel it without it being overpowering. Space movies are good for this because you have the underlying ship noises that play throughout the movie, loud enough to be heard and felt but not so loud as to drown out the dialogue. And Event Horizon was perfect for this kind of setting.

DONNIEP
09-25-2012, 12:55 AM
The problem getting to Mars is the human body goes to pot in zero gravity. You lose a lot of bone and muscle mass. You could send an olympic athletes to Mars and you would get a basket case back.

No, you don't. Everybody knows you put them in some sort of deep sleep and stick 'em in a grav couch for the ride. Duh. And you hope HAL doesn't fuck up while you're sleeping :biggrin:

Nitro Express
09-25-2012, 12:58 AM
No, you don't. Everybody knows you put them in some sort of deep sleep and stick 'em in a grav couch for the ride. Duh. And you hope HAL doesn't fuck up while you're sleeping :biggrin:

Or freeze them Han Solo style and thaw them out at the destination.

Dan
09-25-2012, 01:02 AM
Event Horizon was fucking BAD ASS. Sam Neill is THE man.

Great Kiwi Actor.:D

vandeleur
09-25-2012, 01:02 AM
I watched 2010 the space odyssey follow up recently , that was really good I saw that at the movies and enjoyed that.
Roy scheider was very cool in it. I see you your Sam Neil and play my Roy scheider card ... Tho Sam Neil is a fuck load easier to spell :D

DONNIEP
09-25-2012, 01:05 AM
Or freeze them Han Solo style and thaw them out at the destination.

Ever freeze a tomato? :)

DONNIEP
09-25-2012, 01:08 AM
I watched 2010 the space odyssey follow up recently , that was really good I saw that at the movies and enjoyed that.
Roy scheider was very cool in it. I see you your Sam Neil and play my Roy scheider card ... Tho Sam Neil is a fuck load easier to spell :D

I haven't watched 2010 in so many years I can't even remember it. I loved 2001, well, right up until the acid trip ending with the giant fucking baby in space. I like to think when I watch movies - but if I have to decide what the ending means on my own then just fade the damn thing to black. A fucking giant baby...Jesus I've wasted a lot of time reading and listening to other people's interpretations of what the hell that meant :)

vandeleur
09-25-2012, 01:10 AM
It meant the drugs were stronger then lol

2012 held up well sometimes these things date quickly but it was cool

DONNIEP
09-25-2012, 01:15 AM
This isn't the proper thread for this - but you have to check out The Booth At The End. Just look it up and watch it.

Nitro Express
09-25-2012, 01:28 AM
I haven't watched 2010 in so many years I can't even remember it. I loved 2001, well, right up until the acid trip ending with the giant fucking baby in space. I like to think when I watch movies - but if I have to decide what the ending means on my own then just fade the damn thing to black. A fucking giant baby...Jesus I've wasted a lot of time reading and listening to other people's interpretations of what the hell that meant :)

We had to watch it in art class. It was my last semester of high school. I was a senior ready to get the hell out of there. A girl a year younger was hinting she liked me. At the time I had no interest because I kind of had a girl at the time. She would come up and look at my painting and go "Oh I love the green in this." Hindsight being 20/20, I should have shagged the hell out of her. She wanted it. She was hinting hard. She wrote some sexy stuff in my year book. My wife was reading it and she goes,"Who in the hell is Karen?". Ah some girl I should have fucked. LOL! So when 2001 comes up it reminds me of Karen and I should have been less stuck up and a bigger whore. Lesson learned. We had some hippy dip teacher. We had to listen to Alice's Restaurant too.

In 1984 the year 2001 seemed a zillion years away. I can see when that movie was made they saw us in space like that because technology was moving so fast. Probably what has actually held us back is greed and corruption. There's a small group that seems to want to hold the world back so they can corner the market on everything. Instead of moving forward we are moving backwards because the people in charge of the money supply want the advances for themselves but they want to keep the mass majority of the world pinned down. It's why the banks don't loan to the little people but the big cats speculate currencies over night and make 50% returns on their money.

DONNIEP
09-25-2012, 01:35 AM
We had some hippy dip teacher. We had to listen to Alice's Restaurant too.

My favorite song of my entire life. Well, the motorcycle song was pretty good too :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g266Uwp6ZnI

Nitro Express
09-25-2012, 01:45 AM
Hindsight being 20/20 1984 was a great year. I worked hard and played hard. Got drunk a lot and laid a lot. It was taking care of business and party party party. It's one big blur but a good blur.

DONNIEP
09-25-2012, 01:55 AM
Hindsight being 20/20 1984 was a great year. I worked hard and played hard. Got drunk a lot and laid a lot. It was taking care of business and party party party. It's one big blur but a good blur.

That was 1986 through about 1999 and several spotty years here and there between then and now for me. And I'm still trying to stretch out my youth...although the recovery time is much longer these days :gulp:

Nitro Express
09-25-2012, 02:00 AM
The 90's kind of shot by. I don't remember much of it other than working long, long hours. I made a lot of money that decade though. The old joke that goes when you have the time you have no money and when you have money you have no time is so true.

DONNIEP
09-25-2012, 02:04 AM
The 90's kind of shot by. I don't remember much of it other than working long, long hours. I made a lot of money that decade though.

I had plenty of money back then. Now I make more but I'm a single dad so I spend a shitload more and have next to nothing left! That's all right though. Money certainly couldn't have bought all the happiness I've had for the past 12 years. Or maybe it could have :biggrin:

Nitro Express
09-25-2012, 02:18 AM
I had plenty of money back then. Now I make more but I'm a single dad so I spend a shitload more and have next to nothing left! That's all right though. Money certainly couldn't have bought all the happiness I've had for the past 12 years. Or maybe it could have :biggrin:

The problem with money now is who do you trust with it and where do you put it? Nobody really has the answer on that one. In the 90's you just put it in the mutual fund and didn't think about it much. I basically just invested in the S&P 500 because other funds rarely beat it. You figured it was safe and growing. I had great health insurance with my job and bought my first house at a reasonable price. The real estate bubble hadn't gone beyond reason yet. By the late 90's everyone was jacking prices on everything. Healthcare, houses, education. Now the economy has tanked, house prices have gone down in most markets but education and healthcare are still expensive. It's pretty obvious the prices on those are rigged.