Unions Killed the Twinkie, Ding Dong, and Ho Ho

[BigBadBrian]

Twinkies Maker Hostess Going Out of Business

Hostess, the makers of Twinkies, Ding Dongs and Wonder Bread, is going out of business after striking workers failed to heed a Thursday deadline to return to work, the company said.

“We deeply regret the necessity of today’s decision, but we do not have the financial resources to weather an extended nationwide strike,” Hostess CEO Gregory F. Rayburn said in announcing that the firm had filed a motion with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court to shutter its business. “Hostess Brands will move promptly to lay off most of its 18,500-member workforce and focus on selling its assets to the highest bidders.”

Hostess Brands Inc. had earlier warned employees that it would file to unwind its business and sell off assets if plant operations didn't return to normal levels by 5 p.m. Thursday. In announcing its decision, Hostess said its wind down would mean the closure of 33 bakeries, 565 distribution centers, approximately 5,500 delivery routes and 570 bakery outlet stores in the United States.

Hostess suspended bakery operations at all its factories and said its stores will remain open for several days to sell already-baked products.

The Irving, Texas-based company had already reached a contract agreement with its largest union, the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. But thousands of members in its second-biggest union went on strike late last week after rejecting in September a contract offer that cut wages and benefits. Officials for the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union say the company stopped contributing to workers' pensions last year.

A union representative did not immediately return a call from The Associated Press seeking comment on the company's announcement.

In an interview with Fox Business, CEO Gregory Rayburn said many workers had already crossed picket lines this week to go back to work despite warnings by union leadership that they'd be fined.

"The problem is we don't have enough crossing those lines to maintain normal production," said Rayburn, who first joined Hostess earlier this year as a restructuring expert.

Hostess said that production at about a dozen of the company's 33 plants had been seriously affected by the strike. Three plants were closed earlier this week.

The privately held company filed for Chapter 11 protection in January, its second trip through bankruptcy court in less than a decade. The company cited increasing pension and medical costs for employees as one of the drivers behind its latest filing. Hostess had argued that workers must make concessions for it to exit bankruptcy and improve its financial position.

The company, founded in 1930, was fighting battles beyond labor costs, however. Competition is increasing in the snack space and Americans are increasingly conscious about healthy eating. Hostess also makes Dolly Madison, Drake's and Nature's Pride snacks.

If the motion is granted, Hostess would begin closing operations as early as Tuesday.

"Most employees who lose their jobs should be eligible for government-provided unemployment benefits," Hostess said.

Copyright Associated Press / NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/NATL-Twinkies-Maker-Hostess-Going-Out-of-Business-179643161.html

[ZahZoo]

Good for Hostess... This should be a wake up call for the unions.

I doubt we'll see the Obama administration jumping to bail out the Ho-Ho's... but this will obviously have a ripple effect in the economy, plus if our deficits weren't bad enough throwing another 18,500 people onto unemployment benefits and out into a terrible job market is going to be tough for those folks.

[BigBadBrian]

I don't want to see anyone lose their job, but this union holding this company at knifepoint has consequences.

[ELVIS]

Maybe Hostess can replace the homo undertoned Twinkie with Mrs. Obama's® Arugula Cakes™...

[Nickdfresh]

Good for Hostess... This should be a wake up call for the unions.
...s.

Um, WTF? How is this good for Hostess, they're going bankrupt!

[Nickdfresh]

I don't want to see anyone lose their job, but this union holding this company at knifepoint has consequences.

Yeah, well, it might not be such a big loss as what Hostess was asking was tantamount putting them onto the scale of shitty retail jobs...

[Nickdfresh]

Maybe Hostess can replace the homo undertoned Twinkie with Mrs. Obama's® Arugula Cakes™...

Then you won't be so tempted to suck out the cream filling?

[Satan]

Sounds like more sour grapes from another 1% Republican douchebag CEO who probably has plenty of money to pay his own fat ass an 8 figure salary for doing nothing, but "can't afford" to pay the people who actually do the work a decent living wage.

Oh well.... it's not like the loss of the nutritionally devoid Wonder "bread" will be a huge blow to America. And their junk food hasn't been edible since they switched to corn poison anyway.

[Romeo Delight]

I don't want to see anyone lose their job, but this union holding this company at knifepoint has consequences.

I don't know all the details, but considering the fact that the company had stopped contributing to pensions, the union's actions can hardly be viewed as the union holding at knifepoint - more like the other way around with the threat of closing everythign down.

[Little Texan]

Then you won't be so tempted to suck out the cream filling?

He likes sucking the cream out of Ding Dongs. :biggrin:

[Little Texan]

Twinkies, Ding Dongs, Ho Hos...I never realized how much sexual innuendo was in the names of their products.

[Satan]

The true story here is that the unions aren't killing Hostess. Vulture capitalism is. (no, it's not Mittens this time.....)


Bankruptcy (2004)

On September 22, 2004, Interstate Bakeries filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The company also named a new chief executive, Tony Alvarez. Interstate Bakery's stock, which had been at one time $34/share, fell to $2.05/share as they declared bankruptcy. At the time it was the longest bankruptcy in U.S. history. During bankruptcy, Interstate fought a 2007 bid from Mexican baked goods giant Grupo Bimbo and Ron Burkle of the Yucaipa Companies.[13]

With the leadership of Craig Jung, the company emerged from bankruptcy as a private company on February 3, 2009.[14] The plan included a 50 percent equity stake by Ripplewood Holdings and lines/loans by General Electric Capital and GE Capital Markets, Silver Point Finance and Monarch Master Funding. Interstate's union workers made contract concessions in exchange for equity.[15]

During the 2004–2009 bankruptcy period, Interstate closed nine of its 54 bakeries and more than 300 outlet stores. Interstate's work force declined from 32,000 to 22,000 employees. The company also dropped some regional brands and operating agreements, such as the agreement to produce Sunbeam Bread for the northeastern U.S. (now produced by LePage Bakeries of Auburn, Maine).[15]
Hostess Brands, Inc. (2009)

Effective November 2, 2009, the company was renamed Hostess Brands, Inc. after the cake division that featured Twinkies and cupcakes. Hostess continues its bread lines, including Wonder Bread.[16]
Bankruptcy and liquidation (2012)

By December 2011 it was reported that Hostess Brands was on the verge of filing for bankruptcy a second time after it suspended payments for union pensions and was struggling to remain current on its $700 million loan.[17]

On January 10, 2012, Hostess Brands filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy for the second time. In a statement in its filing, the company said it "is not competitive, primarily due to legacy pension and medical benefit obligations and restrictive work rules." The company said it employs 19,000 people and carries more than $860 million in debt. The company said it would continue to operate with $75 million debtor-in-possession financing from Monarch Alternative Capital, Silver Point Capital and other investors.[4]

Television talk show hostess Wendy Williams started a "Save The Twinkie" publicity campaign shortly after the bankruptcy filing.[18] The campaign included promotions on The Wendy Williams Show.[19]

In March 2012, Brian Driscoll resigned from his position as CEO.[20] Gregory Rayburn, who had been hired and named Chief Restructuring Officer only nine days earlier, assumed the leadership position. Fortune reported that unions within the organization had been unhappy with Driscoll's proposed compensation package of $1.5 million, plus cash incentives and a $1.95 million "long term compensation" package. Additionally, the court had discovered that Hostess executives had received raises of up to 80% the year prior. In an effort to restore relations, Rayburn cut the salaries of the four top Hostess executives to $1, to be restored on January 1 the following year.[21]

In July 2012, the New York Post reported that negotiations (lead by Silver Point Capital) with the Teamsters Union were close to a possible agreement that could allow Hostess Brands to cut employee pay and benefits, if the company maintained funding of existing pension plans.[22] In May, all 19,000 workers had been warned (as required by the Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification Act) that they could face a mass layoff. In an email to the Appeal-Democrat Hostess spokesman Erik Halvorson said that the May notices were to alert employees to possible sale or wind down of the company, but that "our goal is still to emerge from bankruptcy as a growing company with a strong future."[23] These layoff notices listed the dates as July 7–21, but on July 5 another company spokesman told the Financial News & Daily Record that there were no immediate plans to start laying off Hostess employees.[24]

In November 2012, Hostess employees nationwide went on strike. The Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers' International Union, which represents 6,600 Hostess employees, took the strike action after the latest contract proposal from Hostess Brands was rejected by 92 percent of its members. In response, Hostess Brands issued the following statement: "A widespread strike will cause Hostess brands to liquidate if we are unable to produce or deliver products. If that's the case, the company will move promptly to lay off most of its 18,300-member workforce and focus on selling its assets to the highest bidders. We urge our employees to remain on the job to rebuild the company."[25]

On November 16, 2012, Hostess announced that it was ceasing plant operations and laying off most of its 18,500 employees. It stated that it intended to sell off all of its assets, including the well known brand names, and liquidate.[26][27] The CEO, Gregory F. Rayburn stated, "Hostess Brands will move promptly to lay off most of its 18,500-member workforce and focus on selling its assets to the highest bidders."[28][29]

However, in order to actually liquidate, it needs the permission of U.S. Bankruptcy Court Judge Robert Drain.[30]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostess_Brands

[sadaist]

Good for Hostess... This should be a wake up call for the unions.

I doubt we'll see the Obama administration jumping to bail out the Ho-Ho's... but this will obviously have a ripple effect in the economy, plus if our deficits weren't bad enough throwing another 18,500 people onto unemployment benefits and out into a terrible job market is going to be tough for those folks.


Fuck these unions. Unions had a very important role. But so many local, state & federal rules, laws & regulations that unions are pretty much just cash & power grabs now. They run companies out of business. Parasites. A virus that eventually kills the host if left unchecked.

Professional sports teams aren't far behind. I hope people wake up soon and stop thinking it's just because Republicans are evil that they want to put some controls on the unions power.

[sadaist]

Yeah, well, it might not be such a big loss as what Hostess was asking was tantamount putting them onto the scale of shitty retail jobs...


Shitty retail job beats no job.


Oh wait, maybe not with all the stuff you can get from Baracka Claus.

[Satan]

Keep blaming the unions for corporate greed, and retail jobs will be all that's left.

Or whatever other jobs there are won't pay any better than Wal Mart or McDonalds, at least.

Sincerely,

Satan T. Devil,
Fallen Angels Local 666
Sin City, Hell

[Satan]

11.16.12 - 2:15 PM
On Twinkies, Ho Hos, Hedge Funds and Greed

by Abby Zimet

Hostess Brands - Texas-based maker of the iconic, for better or worse, Twinkies, Ding-Dongs, Wonder Bread and other marvels of chemical engineering rumored to be able to survive nuclear catastrophe, is closing, putting 18,500 workers at 33 bakeries and 565 distribution centers out of work. Much of the media coverage is blaming recent strikes by union bakery workers, who had overwhelmingly rejected drastic contract concessions. But the company has a long history of financial instability and ownership changes, including two earlier bankruptcies. The Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union blames greed by Wall Street hedge funds that had taken over control, unreasonable demands including wage and benefit cuts of up to 30% even as top executives got large pay increases, and a decade of gross mismanagement by a company that had already gone through six CEOs in eight years. Changing tastes, too, played a part. Still, the brand has become a cultural touchstone. and tweeters are lamenting its loss. The best tweet: "The only food that can survive an apocalypse will no longer be made. Well played Mayans. Well played."

“The Wall Street investors who took over the company after the last bankruptcy attempted to resolve the mess by attacking the company’s most valuable asset – its workers....Responsibility for the failure of the company rests squarely on the shoulders of the company's decision-makers." - union president Frank Hurt.

What's in a Twinkie, you might or might not ask. Its 37 ingredients, many of which derive from rock or oil:

Enriched Bleached Wheat Flour [Flour, Reduced Iron, B Vitamins (Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate (B1), Riboflavin (B2), Folic Acid)], Corn Syrup, Sugar, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Water, Partially Hydrogenated Vegetable and/or Animal Shortening (Soybean, Cottonseed and/or Canola Oil, Beef Fat), Whole Eggs, Dextrose. Contains 2% or Less of: Modified Corn Starch, Glucose, Leavenings (Sodium Acid Pyrophosphate, Baking Soda, Monocalcium Phosphate), Sweet Dairy Whey, Soy Protein Isolate, Calcium and Sodium Caseinate, Salt, Mono and Diglycerides, Polysorbate 60, Soy Lecithin, Soy Flour, Cornstarch, Cellulose Gum, Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, Natural and Artificial Flavors, Sorbic Acid (to Retain Freshness), Yellow 5, Red 40.


Article printed from www.CommonDreams.org
Source URL: https://www.commondreams.org/further/2012/11/16-1

[Nitro Express]

No more Twinkies and Ding Dongs? Sammy Hagar is going to starve to death.

[Nitro Express]

Fuck these unions. Unions had a very important role. But so many local, state & federal rules, laws & regulations that unions are pretty much just cash & power grabs now. They run companies out of business. Parasites. A virus that eventually kills the host if left unchecked.

Professional sports teams aren't far behind. I hope people wake up soon and stop thinking it's just because Republicans are evil that they want to put some controls on the unions power.

Yup. They are killing the golden goose. Japanese car companies are non-union and people who work for them seem to be happy.

[Satan]

Japan has single payer health care. If the US had that, then a lot of the things these greedy CEOs try to get out of paying would no longer be an issue.

Maybe they should think about that, rather than fuck over their employees like these assholes or that pizza douche who lives in a literal CASTLE and is all upset that Obamacare might raise his fucking expenses by 3 goddamn cents per pizza.

[Little Texan]

No more Twinkies and Ding Dongs? Sammy Hagar is going to starve to death.

He's still got Michael Anthony's Ding Dong to satisfy his appetite.

[sadaist]

Yup. They are killing the golden goose. Japanese car companies are non-union and people who work for them seem to be happy.


I work in the auto insurance industry. Allstate, State Farm, Farmers, Hartford, etc... Entry jobs pay okay, but TONS of room to grow and move up & around that ladder. Good decent money to be made if you work hard & apply yourself. Absolutely terrific benefits all around.

No unions.

[sadaist]

Never really loved Twinkies. Good to eat but always preferred Ding Dongs. Love those. Hostess fruit pies are the best with that great frosting on the outer shell. Wonder bread is pretty comforting too. I remember back in the 80's when jet skis were fairly new seeing one with custom paint of the wonder bread bag. White with the multi-colored polka dots. very cool

[Nitro Express]

I work in the auto insurance industry. Allstate, State Farm, Farmers, Hartford, etc... Entry jobs pay okay, but TONS of room to grow and move up & around that ladder. Good decent money to be made if you work hard & apply yourself. Absolutely terrific benefits all around.

No unions.

Yup. Insurance is a very profitable industry and will always be around. Unless there is something that throws the regression analysis out of whack the underwriters base the premiums on, you make money.

[Nitro Express]

I don't think I have eaten Twinkies or Ding Dongs since I was in grade school. My mom would sometimes put them in my lunch box. Maybe that stuff is out of style. I mean my kids don't eat that stuff. In the 70's I remember Ding Dongs, Twinkies, and Snow Balls were pretty popular.

[ashstralia]

Drug dealing is pretty lucrative; not sure if there's a union for that.

[Satan]

Drug dealing is pretty lucrative; not sure if there's a union for that.

Well, actually......

[Matt White]

Well well well.......................

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/11/16/1203151/why-unions-dont-shoulder-the-blame-for-hostesss-downfall/

Hostess Blames Union For Bankruptcy After Tripling CEO’s Pay

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Hostess-Snacks1-e1353077916113.jpg

By Annie-Rose Strasser on Nov 16, 2012 at 3:50 pm


Today, Hostess Brands inc. — the company famed for its sickly sweet desert snacks like Twinkies and Sno Balls — announced they’d be shuttering after more than eighty years of production.

But while headlines have been quick to blame unions for the downfall of the company there’s actually more to the story: While the company was filing for bankruptcy, for the second time, earlier this year, it actually tripled its CEO’s pay, and increased other executives’ compensation by as much as 80 percent.

At the time, creditors warned that the decision signaled an attempt to “sidestep” bankruptcy rules, potentially as a means for trying to keep the executive at a failing company. The Confectionery, Tobacco Workers & Grain Millers International Union pointed this out in their written reaction to the news that the business is closing:


BCTGM members are well aware that as the company was preparing to file for bankruptcy earlier this year, the then CEO of Hostess was awarded a 300 percent raise (from approximately $750,000 to $2,550,000) and at least nine other top executives of the company received massive pay raises. One such executive received a pay increase from $500,000 to $900,000 and another received one taking his salary from $375,000 to $656,256.

Certainly, the company agreed to an out-sized pension debt, but the decision to pay executives more while scorning employee contracts during a bankruptcy reflects a lack of good managerial judgement.

It also follows a trend of rising CEO pay in times of economic difficulty. At the manufacturing company Caterpillar, for example, they froze workers’ pay while boosting their CEO’s pay to $17 million. And at Citigroup, CEO Vikram Pandit received $6.7 million for crashing his company, walking off with $260 million after the business lost 88 percent of its value.

[Satan]

Vulture capitalism strikes again. http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/teufel/d085.gif

[BigBadBrian]

I'll bet she's glad:

http://i.usatoday.net/communitymanager/_photos/pop-candy/2010/01/07/debx-large.jpg

[BigBadBrian]

Well well well.......................

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/11/16/1203151/why-unions-dont-shoulder-the-blame-for-hostesss-downfall/


But while headlines have been quick to blame unions for the downfall of the company there’s actually more to the story: While the company was filing for bankruptcy, for the second time, earlier this year, it actually tripled its CEO’s pay, and increased other executives’ compensation by as much as 80 percent.



That's why I tell my kids to go get a degree and not be stuck in some union job that's either low-wage or decent wage but under threat of lay-off.

Besides, how many workers would these salaries pay? Less than 50, out of 18,500. the Baker's Union fucked over everyone else.

[Nickdfresh]

Fuck these unions. Unions had a very important role. But so many local, state & federal rules, laws & regulations that unions are pretty much just cash & power grabs now. They run companies out of business. Parasites. A virus that eventually kills the host if left unchecked.

Professional sports teams aren't far behind. I hope people wake up soon and stop thinking it's just because Republicans are evil that they want to put some controls on the unions power.

"Parasites" like people who want to earn a living wage?

I suspect the truth is that Hostess would have done fine with a better contract with its workers, but has decided they'll do better selling off the iconic brands and recipes...

[Matt White]

That's why I tell my kids to go get a degree and not be stuck in some union job that's either low-wage or decent wage but under threat of lay-off.

Besides, how many workers would these salaries pay? Less than 50, out of 18,500. the Baker's Union fucked over everyone else.

Right...go to school & go to work for Wall$treet so you can screw your fellow American!

Don't go to work everyday for 30+ years, work overtime, & make your company RECORD profits....just so they can bankrupt the place & sell everything off to the Commies!! The RETHUGLICAN DREAM!!!! WHOO-HOOOO!!!!

[ELVIS]

That's why I tell my kids to go get a degree.

You should just tell them to go get a billion dollars...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Hopefully Carmine doesn't get pissed at me, but he penned this comment on his FB page....It's lengthy, but detailed....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yesterday, it was announced that Hostess is going out of business. Of course, the uninformed are foaming at the mouth claiming that it is the Unions' fault what with their greedy requests of fair pay and benefits for work given to the company. I've not seen anyone acknowledge that the CEO of Hostess recently took a 300% raise from $750,000 up to $2.25 million. I'll pause here so you can say to yourself, "Wow, I didn't know that."

I'll add in the following history lesson as well...In 2003, Hostess began closing production plants and laying off workers. In 2004, Hostess first entered Bankruptcy court and the BCTGM Union gave back $110 Million in wage and benefit concessions. Go ahead now, re-read that last sentence, I'll wait for that "Union has been giving concessions for 8 years" part to sink in.

Let's continue, in 2009, Hostess emerged from Bankruptcy controlled by a private equity firm and 2 hedge funds. The company continued to pile on new debt. In 2011, the average salary for Hostess employees was fair at about $43,000 a year. The CEO makes $2.25 million, the Union had already given back $110 million and management is asking for further wage and benefits concessions. Why? One must assume that the CEO of Hostess was struggling to survive on that meager 2.25 million dollar salary, right?

After 8 years and after seeing none of their 2004-2011 concessions re-invested in the company, the workers refused. Hostess again files for Bankruptcy, stops paying employee pension obligations and demands additional huge givebacks. The Union files complaints with the NLRB and goes on strike. Yesterday, Hostess announces the company liquidation and blames the workers. Since 2004, when the Union re-negotiated contracts and gave back that $110 million, Hostess has closed 21 plants and thousands of workers have lost their jobs. Since 2002, Hostess has had 6 CEO's who did nothing to fix the company. They got paid though.

Yes, Hostess is in bankruptcy for the second time in 8 years. Since the first bankruptcy in 2004, BCTGM members across the country have taken dramatic wage and benefit concessions and watched as those 21 Hostess plants were shut down and thousands of jobs were lost. At the time of the first bankruptcy, Hostess workers were assured by management that money saved via concessions or plant closings would help make the company stronger, more vibrant, and more competitive. Instead, Hostess employees watched as money that was supposed to go towards capital investment, product development, plant improvement and new equipment went to executive bonuses and payouts to the hedge funds that own Hostess. They watched as the company illegally withdrew from all Taft-Hartley pension plans, stealing away more than $50 million in the first five months. The BCTGM union learned that the Hostess CEO was awarded that 300% raise, and at least nine other top executives were to receive raises ranging between 35% and 80%. Since the company ceased making contractually obligated payments to the Hostess workers' pensions in July 2011, it has pocketed approximately $160 million – money earned by and contractually owed to its dedicated workforce. Striking members knew that the Wall Street investors currently in control had no intention of re-building the company. They have been simply taking the money from the workers' contract concessions and the sale of assets, paying themselves and then will liquidate the company to make even more money. The workers went on strike November 9...what did the company do again yesterday? They announced liquidation and blamed the Unions. It's believable too...if you don't have any facts other than what you see on TV. The facts are right here, in case you missed them...the workers have been having their pockets picked and have been lied to for the last 8 years.

Hostess brands are too valuable. The brands and bakeries will be sold off piece by piece and some other vulture capital firm will provide financing and new non-union employees will be hired. You can guarantee that the new non-union employees will make far less in pay and benefits than the average union worker of today. The "Toppling of the Twinkie" was nothing more than Union-Busting. To place the blame on the backs of the very people who built Hostess and who tried in vain for the last 8 years to save it, is wrong. It was the union bakers, the union line workers, the union drivers that made Hostess into what it was. It was certainly not some CEO sitting behind a desk pulling in more money in one year than the average worker will earn in a lifetime. It is also certainly not some group of vulture owner capitalists piling debt onto the company while sucking the profit out like a five year old sucks the cream filling out of a Twinkie. The unions didn’t kill Hostess ... it was corporate scumbag fucking greed that killed Hostess. I see it everyday...so would you, if you cared enough to look. Don't worry though, Twinkie fans...you'll be able to eat that golden cake again real soon...the price will certainly have gone up and the poor bastard that made it for you...will be making around $9 an hour...this plan has been in the works for years...

[ELVIS]

Hostess needs to go out of business...

They make garbage...

[Nickdfresh]

Hostess needs to go out of business...

They make garbage...

I haven't had they're stuff in years. I used to love the Ho Ho's and the cupcakes. Part of the reason is that the new school lunch programs and the increased awareness about healthier eating have caused them the problems. But I have a hard time believing they weren't profitable.

[Matt White]

Hostess needs to go out of business...

They make garbage...

Absolutely.................they've outlived the market at this point....

bought a Hostess Fruit Pie yesturday,,,,just becuz....and it was terrible.....they've gone the way of the Big Wheel....."Goodbye 1970's!"

[twonabomber]

Zingers are better than Twinkies. :D

[Kristy]

That's why I tell my kids to go get a degree and not be stuck in some union job that's either low-wage or decent wage but under threat of lay-off.

Besides, how many workers would these salaries pay? Less than 50, out of 18,500. the Baker's Union fucked over everyone else.

Must be great to live in 1955.

[Kristy]

Absolutely.................they've outlived the market at this point....

bought a Hostess Fruit Pie yesturday,,,,just becuz....and it was terrible.....they've gone the way of the Big Wheel....."Goodbye 1970's!"

Looks like Proposition 64 passed a little late to save them. Then again, I never ate their shitty, sugary product to begin with. It's all going the way of hormone-induced GMO poison anymore.

[BigBadBrian]

Zingers are better than Twinkies. :D

Yeah, and so are:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_-HSykkBjPbY/TG3Ek6eBcyI/AAAAAAAAB0Y/NG2EI-itGu4/s1600/nutty_bars.bmp

[Satan]

Hostess needs to go out of business...

They make garbage...

Well, you're half right....

The world certainly doesn't need the nutritionally void Wonder "Bread" or snack foods loaded with high fructose corn poison and other chemicals.

But it's still sad to see vulture capitalism destroy another piece of American history and put thousands more out of work. http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/teufel/d085.gif

[Satan]

Must be great to live in 1955.

Ironically enough, in 1955 the rich paid 91% taxes, and the Republican president actually believed in building infrastructure, and would later warn the country about the criminal "defense" industry.

And more topical to this thread, here's what the 1956 Republican party platform had to say about unions......

"The protection of the right of workers to organize into unions and to bargain collectively is the firm and permanent policy of the Eisenhower Administration."

[sadaist]

"Parasites" like people who want to earn a living wage?
..


Nope. Some parasites are beneficial. You know if you took a microscope to your eyelashes you would see plenty that actually keep them clean for you. But some parasites get too hungry & too large and overtake their host...which leads to the death of the host.

Unions need to be kept in check or they become too powerful. Flip side is companies need to treat their employees with some respect. There is a balance. But we just don't really see it much any more.

[Nickdfresh]

Ironically enough, in 1955 the rich paid 91% taxes, and the Republican president actually believed in building infrastructure, and would later warn the country about the criminal "defense" industry.

And more topical to this thread, here's what the 1956 Republican party platform had to say about unions......

"The protection of the right of workers to organize into unions and to bargain collectively is the firm and permanent policy of the Eisenhower Administration."

The rich seldom paid 91%, the "loophole" then was to invest most of your wealth back into the company--the rich still got to keep most of it, but they were also forced to grow their businesses...

[Satan]

The rich seldom paid 91%, the "loophole" then was to invest most of your wealth back into the company--the rich still got to keep most of it, but they were also forced to grow their businesses...

Exactly! Old Ike knew what he was doing with that tax rate.

There wouldn't be any outsourcing jobs or stashing money in the Cayman Islands today if we still had that tax rate.

[sadaist]

Exactly! Old Ike knew what he was doing with that tax rate.

There wouldn't be any outsourcing jobs or stashing money in the Cayman Islands today if we still had that tax rate.



Did you hear about the gay cruise ship that was turned away from the Cayman islands?

All the men on board wore t-shirts in protest that read "Cayman my ass!"

[Nitro Express]

Exactly! Old Ike knew what he was doing with that tax rate.

There wouldn't be any outsourcing jobs or stashing money in the Cayman Islands today if we still had that tax rate.
Ike was the last good Republican president.

[jhale667]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/402378_495371230483483_162006653_n.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/382131_484461468265067_1147697461_n.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/405139_10152248928475117_1350292121.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/480851_503498029671577_1017918365_n.jpg

[Carmine]

Hopefully Carmine doesn't get pissed at me, but he penned this comment on his FB page....It's lengthy, but detailed....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks, Bro...I was just reading this thread and was gonna post...but, It'd already been done :thumb:

[Carmine]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/15/1092027/-Thanks-a-Union-36-Ways-Unions-Have-Improved-Your-Life

Let's get one thing straight...

Employers and Corporations did not feel generous and decide to give you two days off every week to have a social/personal life. (We now call them weekends). Corporations did not just feel like being nice one day and give their employees paid vacations. CEOs didn't get together in a board room and say "Let's give our employees more rights at work" or "Maybe there should be laws to limit our power over an employee".

Virtually ALL the benefits you have at work, whether you work in the public or private sector, all of the benefits and rights you enjoy everyday are there because unions fought hard and long for them against big business who did everything they could to prevent giving you your rights. Many union leaders and members even lost their lives for things we take for granted today.

The right-wing attack on unions is nothing more than ignorance, lack of education, and propaganda.

If republicans would rather support corporations instead of organized groups of workers working to secure a fair work environment A.K.A a union, I ask them to walk the walk as well. Give up every benefit and right that you use that unions are responsible for.

Complete trust and submit yourself to the corporate agenda you fight for. Play by their rules with no influence from democrats or labor unions to try to force rights among the workers of this country. Dedicate your life to their life goal of making your company more money than the year before. Just understand that this may mean sacrificing the union fought rights you enjoy everyday. I mean, you don't want to be a hypocrite, do you? Like bashing unions on your union fought lunch break? Which means if you practice what you preach, you don't get a lunch break.

Corporations use to work employees 80+ hours a week, offer no breaks, hire children, offer horrid, unsanitary work conditions, paid literally next to nothing, and even murder. Not murder with a pen like they do today, but actual murder. They basically did whatever they wanted.

This is what they were like before unions. Don't take my word for it, look it up. (Links at bottom of page). If we rid the world of unions tomorrow, who is to say that they won't go right back to the way they were merely 70 years ago? The GOP governor of Maine signed a bill to repeal child labor laws this year, maybe they are going back to their roots whether we have unions or not.

So conservatives, please practice what you preach and give up all these rights and leave the umbrella of these laws for they were brought to you by unions...


36 Reasons Why You Should Thank a Union
Weekends
All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks
Paid Vacation
FMLA
Sick Leave
Social Security
Minimum Wage
Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination)
8-Hour Work Day
Overtime Pay
Child Labor Laws
Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)
40 Hour Work Week
Worker's Compensation (Worker's Comp)
Unemployment Insurance
Pensions
Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations
Employer Health Care Insurance
Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees
Wrongful Termination Laws
Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
Whistleblower Protection Laws
Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)
Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)
Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises)
Sexual Harassment Laws
Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)
Holiday Pay
Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance
Privacy Rights
Pregnancy and Parental Leave
Military Leave
The Right to Strike
Public Education for Children
Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)
Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States

So will conservatives give up all 36 of these union fought rights? Will they stand by their rhetoric that unions are thugs and refuse to take benefits from these "thugs" or will they hypocritically carry on the diatribe that unions are ruining this country while enjoying their weekends and paid vacations?
Or...

Maybe they could just admit that while not perfect, like anything else, unions have done great things for working people that they use and benefit from everyday of their lives?

Maybe a conservative union-hating family got to have some of the best moments of their lives while on vacation from work, and they still got to come to a job still there waiting for them, because of unions?

Maybe a conservative can't wait for their lunch break at work so they can turn on the radio and listen to Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Back talk about how horrible unions are?

If you don't want to give up all your union fought rights and benefits at work, I understand. I don't want to either, that's why I'm pro-union and vote Democrat.

But maybe you could just admit that unions are not demons spawned from hell, and admit the FACT that they have improved your life in more ways than one?

Or am I asking too much?

[ZahZoo]

Nice slanted history... but there's a lot of companies that provided those benefits on the list without Unions and before many of those labor laws were enacted.

While there is a nice history of how labor unions shaped a better place for workers... I just don't see that in today's world unions doing much more than skimming off of employees, lining their pockets and doing more to hurt and stifle competitive business growth than provide any benefit to anyone that isn't already on the books.

History is great... but that doesn't mean stagnating the market just because it was once good. Fine example... our pathetic education system in the US and fucking teacher's unions...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Nice slanted history... but there's a lot of companies that provided those benefits on the list without Unions and before many of those labor laws were enacted.

While there is a nice history of how labor unions shaped a better place for workers... I just don't see that in today's world unions doing much more than skimming off of employees, lining their pockets and doing more to hurt and stifle competitive business growth than provide any benefit to anyone that isn't already on the books.

History is great... but that doesn't mean stagnating the market just because it was once good. Fine example... our pathetic education system in the US and fucking teacher's unions...

So you're saying if Unions didn't exist then the majority of companies would simply provide those benefits ??

Completely disagree with that sentiment....

[jhale667]

So you're saying if Unions didn't exist then the majority of companies would simply provide those benefits ??

Completely disagree with that sentiment....


Same here. Union bashing is ridiculous.

[Nickdfresh]

Nice slanted history... but there's a lot of companies that provided those benefits on the list without Unions and before many of those labor laws were enacted.

...

Like which ones?

[Satan]

The last 32 year of corporate induced toilet spiral of economic conditions in the US has also been the exact same amount of time that the number of union jobs has declined.

And if you believe that's a mere coincidence, there's a bridge over the River Styx I'd like to sell you.

[Carmine]

Nice slanted history...

Slanted how?

You can't slant facts...

[BigBadBrian]

Labor Unions are a major reason for outsourcing.

It also cracks me up seeing Walmart employees protesting with labor goons (UFCW) on the news the past few days. Do they honestly expect to make more than about $11 an hour (max)? Do they honestly think their "labor" is worth more than that? Just as products have a price determined by the market, so do salaries and wages.

[Matt White]

Corporate Greed is the #1 reason for outsourcing

[BigBadBrian]

Corporate Greed is the #1 reason for outsourcing

You obviously don't understand the concept of "Cost of Goods Sold" or "Profit."

You need to buy a basic Corporate Finance book. Here's my undergrad book, about 8 editions later:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GYB3W06LL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[BigBadBrian]

Corporate Greed is the #1 reason for outsourcing.....

[Matt White]

You obviously don't understand the concept of "Cost of Goods Sold" or "Profit."

You need to buy a basic Corporate Finance book. Here's my undergrad book, about 8 editions later:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GYB3W06LL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Knew you'd go there....if GREED is your CREED you end up with......

http://school.discoveryeducation.com/schooladventures/slavery/images/slavery_home.jpg

remember..the ENDS do not justify the MEANS

[BigBadBrian]

Knew you'd go there....

remember..the ENDS do not justify the MEANS

Profit is not greed, per se.

However the ends DO justify the means in business, as long as it's legal.

Companies are not in business to employ people. They are in business to make a PROFIT!!! Unions would do well to remember that.

If Company A can make a widget with 5 people vice 7, that's what they are going to do.

Are you a capitalist or a socialist, Matt?

[ZahZoo]

Corporate Greed is the #1 reason for outsourcing

To a degree but there's a lot more at play than simple "corporate greed"... it boils down to operating costs against revenues. With the exception of big oil... revenues have been declining across a lot of the Fortune 500. Those businesses that have prospered have been able to contain costs to support healthy P&L (Profits & Losses).

I hate the way the markets work today... but I've had to explain to employees the "Bigger Picture" having spent my career many of which in management at a Fortune 20 company.

Up at that level... it's not just about executive bonuses and a few getting rich... although that's a fact to a degree. Your stock is a major foundation of not only the US but in most cases the global economy. Meeting stock growth and especially dividend payments feeds into major investment portfolios... which support a lot of retirement, 401K, major investment stock funds, mutual funds and money market accounts. So a significant drop in any of the top Fortune 100 companies will cause a major ripple effect on the overall investment market in general. That's a lot of weight for any one company to carry... but it's also what drives a lot of the business decisions such as outsourcing.

Most people perceive each corporation as a single entity... and view their performance accordingly. Most folks don't understand it's not just that outfit and don't realize how to overall investment market works and there's more than that company's profitability at stake when major business decisions are made.

It's tough when those decisions hit your personal living... I personally can't stand being a part of it some days. But I'm making my way too. So you have to play ball to stay in the game... and understand it's more than what's happening on the field.

[Nickdfresh]

Labor Unions are a major reason for outsourcing.

It also cracks me up seeing Walmart employees protesting with labor goons (UFCW) on the news the past few days. Do they honestly expect to make more than about $11 an hour (max)? Do they honestly think their "labor" is worth more than that? Just as products have a price determined by the market, so do salaries and wages.

What fucking sense does that make? So you're saying we have an unworkable, shit business model in this country because having living wage jobs are impossible?

[Dr. Love]

I know a few people that work in unions. They have a completely different perspective on work than anyone else I know. They constantly believe the company is out to get them. They constantly bitch about how much they hate their jobs, their management, and how management and the company is trying to screw them and that the union has to fight back on that.

I've asked them why they want to work at a place they hate so bad and they talk about how hard they've fought to keep their job, and that it's THEIR job and the company has no right to take it away from them. They refuse to buy or use their own company's products because they hate them that much, but all they talk about is how many more years they have to work to get their pension (and it's a lot of years) and how they have to fight to keep the company from letting their divisions go or screwing them out of their retirement. They even have mandated breaks during the day and will stand up in the middle of work and go sit in the break room for precisely the exact number of minutes they get and then go back. Doesn't matter what they were doing, at break time, they stop.

I just don't get it. No one else I know acts that way. If my other friends or acquaintances don't like a job, they quit. They find another job. They move on until they find a place where they are valued and enjoy working. They get ahead by working hard and proving their worth to either their current employer or a prospective one that hires them away. They don't think they are entitled to their job, they work hard and do their job because that's what they were hired to do.

It's crazy to watch my Union friends... they act like it's a war and it has to be fought to the bitter end, and they are sworn enemies of the company they work for.

[Satan]

There is power in a factory, power in the land
Power in the hands of a worker
But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand
There is power in a Union

Now the lessons of the past were all learned with workers' blood
The mistakes of the bosses we must pay for
From the cities and the farmlands to trenches full of mud
War has always been the bosses' way, sir

The Union forever defending our rights
Down with the blackleg, all workers unite
With our brothers and our sisters from many far off lands
There is power in a Union

Now I long for the morning that they realise
Brutality and unjust laws can not defeat us
But who'll defend the workers who cannot organise
When the bosses send their lackies out to cheat us?

Money speaks for money, the Devil for his own
Who comes to speak for the skin and the bone
What a comfort to the widow, a light to the child
There is power in a Union

The Union forever defending our rights
Down with the blackleg, all workers unite
With our brothers and our sisters together we will stand
There is power in a Union.

[BigBadBrian]

What fucking sense does that make? So you're saying we have an unworkable, shit business model in this country because having living wage jobs are impossible?

I wouldn't consider Walmart a living wage job. Do you? I don't know of too many, other than management (including accounting and finance people), who consider working at a place like Walmart a career.

People working at Walmart earn a typical wage for their position. Should Walmart raise the wages for a stock boy or cashier just because the job doesn't meet their income needs? No.

[Matt White]

Are you a capitalist or a socialist, Matt?

A Capitalist, Brian. Are you a Capitalist or a Facist?
Because the only logical end is slave labor. If "Optimizing Profit" is the end all be all....then thats the only road to travel. Look at APPLE....a $1 an hour? Why not a dollar a day? Why not a dollar a month? Why not labor for food? And shelter? Or maybe just force 'em..................PLENTY of what is going on overseas is "illegal"..................

much like the "I know a few people in UNIONS" comment by Doc Love...I know people in management positions in CHINA....and they tell me its "slave labor"....pure and simple...."...with the Stars and Stripes blowing in the wind behind it all"...................LARVELY

[Carmine]

A collective bargaining agreement is the ultimate goal of the collective bargaining process. Typically, the agreement establishes wages, hours, promotions, benefits, and other employment terms as well as procedures for handling disputes arising under it. Because the collective bargaining agreement cannot address every workplace issue that might arise in the future, unwritten customs and past practices, external law, and informal agreements are as important to the collective bargaining agreement as the written instrument itself.

Collective bargaining allows workers and employers to reach a voluntary agreement on a wide range of topics.

The key word here is voluntary...every time a Union gets "blamed" for anything...there are those that forget...that EVERY single Labor Contract in existence was the result of MUTUALLY agreed upon terms and conditions...by both the Union and Management...

I bargain contracts within reasonable terms with whatever company I'm bargaining with. I study their financials long before I get to the table...long term, short term...you can't ask for a 10% wage increase if the company can only sustain 3%...my focus is always to first keep all of my members on the job...it does no good to lose workers to layoffs to gain more for those that remain.

The days of pounding your fist on the table are gone...well, sometimes I still throw a fist when needed but, the whole process over the last 5 years, at least for me...has been one of fair gains for my members that are sustainable over the life of the contract and no layoffs.

I represent over 6,000 workers in NY State...

I've lost only 5 to layoff since 2007...

Both sides have to make it work...

Collective BARGAINING...to a MUTUALLY agreed upon Contract....

[LoungeMachine]

Profit is not greed, per se.

However the ends DO justify the means in business, as long as it's legal.

Companies are not in business to employ people. They are in business to make a PROFIT!!! Unions would do well to remember that.

If Company A can make a widget with 5 people vice 7, that's what they are going to do.

Are you a capitalist or a socialist, Matt?

That is, in no uncertain terms, "a race to the bottom"

Actually at one time this country's economy was based on quality, not "cheapest". "Cheap" meant imports.

People at one time could support a family, buy a home, and send kids to college on a single income.

Your "as long as its legal" caveat is rather funny to me, since if it were up to you and your ilk there would be no child labor laws, safety in the workplace requirements, and a host of other GOVERNMENT IMPOSED REGULATIONS.

:gulp:

Union workers aren't to blame for the Hostess Brand demise..... Greedy management is....

[WACF]

A collective bargaining agreement is the ultimate goal of the collective bargaining process. Typically, the agreement establishes wages, hours, promotions, benefits, and other employment terms as well as procedures for handling disputes arising under it. Because the collective bargaining agreement cannot address every workplace issue that might arise in the future, unwritten customs and past practices, external law, and informal agreements are as important to the collective bargaining agreement as the written instrument itself.

Collective bargaining allows workers and employers to reach a voluntary agreement on a wide range of topics.

The key word here is voluntary...every time a Union gets "blamed" for anything...there are those that forget...that EVERY single Labor Contract in existence was the result of MUTUALLY agreed upon terms and conditions...by both the Union and Management...

I bargain contracts within reasonable terms with whatever company I'm bargaining with. I study their financials long before I get to the table...long term, short term...you can't ask for a 10% wage increase if the company can only sustain 3%...my focus is always to first keep all of my members on the job...it does no good to lose workers to layoffs to gain more for those that remain.

The days of pounding your fist on the table are gone...well, sometimes I still throw a fist when needed but, the whole process over the last 5 years, at least for me...has been one of fair gains for my members that are sustainable over the life of the contract and no layoffs.

I represent over 6,000 workers in NY State...

I've lost only 5 to layoff since 2007...

Both sides have to make it work...

Collective BARGAINING...to a MUTUALLY agreed upon Contract....


Thank You for what you do.

A proud union member
USW

A side note...unions save lives.

[IceCreamBlondie]

No more Twinkies and Ding Dongs? Sammy Hagar is going to starve to death.

:lmao: Hilarious!!! Good one, Nitro!

[BigBadBrian]

blah blah blah...

I bargain contracts within reasonable terms with whatever company I'm bargaining with. I study their financials long before I get to the table...long term, short term...you can't ask for a 10% wage increase if the company can only sustain 3%...my focus is always to first keep all of my members on the job...it does no good to lose workers to layoffs to gain more for those that remain.

blah blah blah...

I represent over 6,000 workers in NY State...

I

So...

You're one of the fat-cat union officials making a ridiculous salary while the people you represent make $12 an hour? How wonderful.

You're no better than the companies you bargain against.

[BigBadBrian]

That is, in no uncertain terms, "a race to the bottom"

Actually at one time this country's economy was based on quality, not "cheapest". "Cheap" meant imports.

People at one time could support a family, buy a home, and send kids to college on a single income.

From a nice manufacturing job in a factory, yes, but does that statement apply to menial jobs even before the time of Walmart, Home Depot, Kmart, and other big box stores? No, it doesn't. Nobody has ever been able to support a family on a low/no skill job at the 5 and dime.


Your "as long as its legal" caveat is rather funny to me, since if it were up to you and your ilk there would be no child labor laws, safety in the workplace requirements, and a host of other GOVERNMENT IMPOSED REGULATIONS.

:gulp:

Union workers aren't to blame for the Hostess Brand demise..... Greedy management is....

You're naive.

Workers get paid what the market will bear. Unions try to get their workers paid more than their worker's jobs are worth. The company tries to pay them less than they are worth. Those are the facts, all nice and legal. The laws of supply and demand apply to labor as well as products.

[Matt White]

So...

You're one of the fat-cat union officials making a ridiculous salary while the people you represent make $12 an hour? How wonderful.

You're no better than the companies you bargain against.

And what would a Non-Union worker in the same industry make? $5 an hour? Show me the Union member making $12 a hour..............hysterical

[Nickdfresh]

So...

You're one of the fat-cat union officials making a ridiculous salary while the people you represent make $12 an hour? How wonderful.

What's your definition of a "ridiculous salary?"

Secondly, it's not just about paycheck, it's also about: advancement, treatment of workers as humans and adults, benefits, and long term viability of employment to create a win-win for both employee and management. Nothing's perfect. But why the fuck is it so hard to understand that every study shows that spending a bit more on your workers actually increases productivity and that happy workers with higher morale equal better, more profitable situations (i.e. through better customer service and by creating employees that feel they have a stake in the long haul rather than sort termers who could give a fuck about anything...).


You're no better than the companies you bargain against.

You're rather ignorant...but that's stating the obvious...

[Nickdfresh]

From a nice manufacturing job in a factory, yes, but does that statement apply to menial jobs even before the time of Walmart, Home Depot, Kmart, and other big box stores? No, it doesn't. Nobody has ever been able to support a family on a low/no skill job at the 5 and dime.

Another bullshit argument. Often time a retail job is a viable option for a spouse whose husband/wife has a "good", higher paying job with benefits to provide a second income. Just because you can't raise a family working a register at Wal-Mart doesn't mean those working there deserve to be fucked!


You're naive.

Workers get paid what the market will bear. Unions try to get their workers paid more than their worker's jobs are worth. The company tries to pay them less than they are worth. Those are the facts, all nice and legal. The laws of supply and demand apply to labor as well as products.

No. You're fucking naive. Because the "market" is often manipulated by companies essentially using collusion by driving down wages and enforcing a new era of low expectations for the plebeians and unwashed masses and essentially stifling the middle classes by creating and undereducated caste of Feudal Serfs more easily manipulated. This in an era of unprecedented corporate profits...

[ZahZoo]

That is, in no uncertain terms, "a race to the bottom"

Actually at one time this country's economy was based on quality, not "cheapest". "Cheap" meant imports.

People at one time could support a family, buy a home, and send kids to college on a single income.

Your "as long as its legal" caveat is rather funny to me, since if it were up to you and your ilk there would be no child labor laws, safety in the workplace requirements, and a host of other GOVERNMENT IMPOSED REGULATIONS.

:gulp:

Union workers aren't to blame for the Hostess Brand demise..... Greedy management is....

There's one other significant element included... shrinking market. Their core business is crappy junk foods... obviously with the trends in healthy diet that's no longer a growth market.

[ELVIS]

Didn't I say that already ??

[Nickdfresh]

There's one other significant element included... shrinking market. Their core business is crappy junk foods... obviously with the trends in healthy diet that's no longer a growth market.

True to an extent, they can't be managed incompetently and still be profitable. But there is still are market for iconographic brands and Twinkies and Ho Ho's will just be made by someone else.

What I find most fascinating and insulting in all of this is how a CEO gains a massive several hundred percent pay raise despite failing, and idiots here are still attacking "unions" as the problem...

[ZahZoo]

I agree Nick... Given a lot of thought about how do we curb executive pay and bonus abuse. It's not exactly something that can be regulated. As long as boards of directors keep playing the game... it will continue. Good portion of that money should be invested in the company and the workers...

[Nickdfresh]

I agree Nick... Given a lot of thought about how do we curb executive pay and bonus abuse. It's not exactly something that can be regulated. As long as boards of directors keep playing the game... it will continue. Good portion of that money should be invested in the company and the workers...

How about a tax tied to excessive executive pay?

[Dr. Love]

Taxes aren't the answer for everything.

How about if you don't like how a company operates, you don't buy their products?

[FORD]

Taxes aren't the answer for everything.

How about if you don't like how a company operates, you don't buy their products?

Taxes ARE the answer for this, however. Because this sort of bullshit didn't happen before the BCE/Reagan tax "cuts" for the rich in 1981. Therefore, corporate CEO's had incentive to make things better for everyone at their company, not just themselves.

[Dr. Love]

I guess we're determined to live in a society where we just legislate how much money people make rather than just take some personal responsibility and not buy their products or services if we don't like what they do.

[ZahZoo]

Taxes aren't the answer for everything.

How about if you don't like how a company operates, you don't buy their products?

I guess that would rule out me ever buying a new computer, smart phone or car...

[FORD]

I guess we're determined to live in a society where we just legislate how much money people make rather than just take some personal responsibility and not buy their products or services if we don't like what they do.

Well, that's a great idea in theory, but it doesn't always work in practice.....

Sure there are alternatives to eating Twinkies... but what about the folks who live in one of those small towns gutted by WalMart. Kinda hard to shop somewhere else when all the "somewhere elses" were driven out of business.

Bottom line is this country simply worked better when the rich had incentives to make life better for the people who actually made their money, and not just for themselves.

[ZahZoo]

I guess we're determined to live in a society where we just legislate how much money people make rather than just take some personal responsibility and not buy their products or services if we don't like what they do.

Great idea... but we have to attach that consumer activity to a message to executives. Knock off the selfish greed behavior and spread your wealth down to employees. Otherwise they will just see their P&L drop and call for another ass fucking of the employees so they meet their bonus earnings...

[LoungeMachine]

You're naive.

Workers get paid what the market will bear.

LOL

Now look who is being naive....

So, "the market" can bear CEO's and other top board members hundreds of millions, but the guy on the line is asking too much with their COLA's and health benefits....

:gulp:

Typical RePuke logic.

[Carmine]

I just don't have the intellect to be able to read a post and comprehend what is really being said



...because I'm the Front Line "Voice of Reason?"

[Carmine]

LOL


So, "the market" can bear CEO's and other top board members hundreds of millions, but the guy on the line is asking too much with their COLA's and health benefits....

:gulp:

Typical RePuke logic.

Exactly...

[Carmine]

On Wal-Mart...remember this piece? It's from 6 years ago...

Wal-Mart’s relentless exploitation of weak US labor laws thwarts union formation and violates the rights of its US workers, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today.

In the 210-page report, “Discounting Rights: Wal-Mart’s Violation of US Workers’ Right to Freedom of Association,” Human Rights Watch found that while many American companies use weak US laws to stop workers from organizing, the retail giant stands out for the sheer magnitude and aggressiveness of its anti-union apparatus. Many of its anti-union tactics are lawful in the United States, though they combine to undermine workers’ rights. Others run afoul of soft US laws.

“Wal-Mart workers have virtually no chance to organize because they’re up against unfair US labor laws and a giant company that will do just about anything to keep unions out,” said Carol Pier, senior researcher on labor rights and trade for Human Rights Watch. “That one-two punch devastates workers’ right to form and join unions.”

As the world’s largest company, Wal-Mart’s conduct is especially troubling. Wal-Mart had $351.14 billion in revenue and $11.3 billion in profits in the fiscal year ending January 2007. It is the largest private US employer, with more than 1.3 million US workers and close to 4,000 stores nationwide. None of those workers is represented by a union. Human Rights Watch found that this is no accident.

Human Rights Watch’s investigation revealed that, in most cases, Wal-Mart begins to indoctrinate workers and managers to oppose unions from the moment they are hired. Managers receive explicit instructions on keeping out unions, many of which are found in the company’s “Manager’s Toolbox,” a self-described guide to managers on “how to remain union free in the event union organizers choose your facility as their next target.”

If workers try to organize, store managers must report it to Wal-Mart’s Union Hotline at headquarters. The company responds by sending out its Labor Relations Team almost immediately to squash the organizing effort.

Most of the Labor Relations Team’s tactics comport with weak US law. Team members hold small- and large-group “captive audience” meetings, which workers are strongly urged to attend. Workers hear of the terrible consequences of union formation and see videos dramatizing the message. Wal-Mart envelops workers with its anti-union mantra and allows little space for union supporters and organizers to respond – under US law, it does not have to.

“Employers can make their anti-union case loud and clear in the workplace, while banning union reps from company property,” said Pier. “That’s hardly a free and democratic election climate, and it would be unfair in any political contest.”

Wal-Mart’s relentless anti-union drumbeat creates a climate of fear at its US stores. Many workers are convinced that they will suffer dire consequences if they form a union, in part because they do not hear pro-union views. Many are also afraid that if they defy their powerful employer by organizing, they could face retaliation, even firing.

Human Rights Watch found that Wal-Mart heightens this fear with its arsenal of unlawful anti-union tactics. Wal-Mart has sent managers to eavesdrop on employees. According to former workers and managers at one store, it has even ordered the repositioning of surveillance cameras to monitor union supporters. It has told workers they will lose benefits if they organize. The company has discriminatorily banned talk about unions and prohibited union flyer distribution, while allowing discussion of other issues and circulation of non-union materials. It has disciplined union supporters for policy violations that it has let slide for union opponents. And it has illegally fired workers for their union activity.

Penalties under US labor law are so minimal that they have little deterrent effect, and Wal-Mart only receives a slap on the wrist when found guilty of illegal conduct. In most cases, offending employers must simply post in-store notices promising to abide by the law in the future and must restore the status quo before the illegal acts, for example by rehiring wrongfully fired workers and paying them lost earnings. They face no fines or punitive sanctions.

Denied the right to form unions, Wal-Mart workers have been unable to join forces to raise their concerns that the company may be forcing out long-term employees, address their struggles to make ends meet on Wal-Mart wages, or call for an end to high healthcare costs.

A key way to improve protections for worker organizing would be for the US Congress to pass the Employee Free Choice Act (EFCA) and the Bush administration to sign it into law. The EFCA, which passed the US House of Representatives in March and is now under consideration in the Senate, would increase penalties for labor law violations. And it would help restore a democratic union selection process by requiring employers to recognize a union if a majority of workers signs cards showing their support. Currently, employers can force union elections and then intimidate workers with their aggressive anti-union message during the campaign period.

Human Rights Watch also urged the National Labor Relations Board, charged with enforcing US labor law, to seek more court injunctions when allegations of serious employer misconduct arise, particularly against repeat offenders such as Wal-Mart.

Human Rights Watch called upon Wal-Mart to cease all tactics, both legal and illegal, that undercut workers’ right to organize and to go a step further as an industry leader and pledge neutrality on union formation.

For its report, Human Rights Watch interviewed 41 current and former Wal-Mart workers and managers from US stores where organizing had occurred since 2000. Some supported the union; some were opposed; others were ambivalent. Human Rights Watch also contacted Wal-Mart three times in writing to request meetings and obtain the company’s views. Wal-Mart refused to meet and provided only very limited responses.

“Wal-Mart should change its anti-union behavior,” said Pier. “When companies like Wal-Mart can regularly violate US workers’ right to organize, they threaten a fundamental right and one that the government is duty-bound to uphold.”


Wal Mart workers are finally and simply standing up for that fundamental right towards FAIR TREATMENT in the workplace from the richest, largest monster out there.

[Carmine]

EFCA isn't dead either... :winkglasses:

[Zing!]

the "market" is often manipulated by companies essentially using collusion by driving down wages and enforcing a new era of low expectations for the plebeians and unwashed masses and essentially stifling the middle classes by creating and undereducated caste of Feudal Serfs more easily manipulated. This in an era of unprecedented corporate profits...

Dennis: "Oh, king eh? Very nice. And how'd you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers. By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society!"

[Dr. Love]

Great idea... but we have to attach that consumer activity to a message to executives. Knock off the selfish greed behavior and spread your wealth down to employees. Otherwise they will just see their P&L drop and call for another ass fucking of the employees so they meet their bonus earnings...

The whole fire your bank thing is still fresh in my memory from when people didn't like getting charged fees so they closed their accounts and took their business elsewhere, resulting in many banks to change their fee policies.

[Guitar Shark]

Dennis: "Oh, king eh? Very nice. And how'd you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers. By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society!"

I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.

[BigBadBrian]

...because I'm the Front Line "Voice of Reason?"

Changing other people's words around...a third-grade stunt...we know how you operate with your union negotiations. No wonder your workers are complaining.

[BigBadBrian]

LOL

Now look who is being naive....

So, "the market" can bear CEO's and other top board members hundreds of millions, but the guy on the line is asking too much with their COLA's and health benefits....

:gulp:

Typical RePuke logic.

I'm sorry, but you are not going to pay the CEO of a corporation anything close to what you get paid as a stock boy, Lounge. You should've continued on in school like your parents told you to if you wanted a better job.

[BigBadBrian]

On Wal-Mart...remember this piece? It's from 6 years ago...

Wal-Mart’s relentless exploitation of weak US labor laws thwarts union formation and violates the rights of its US workers, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today.



No link.

[Seshmeister]

Something went seriously wrong from the 80s onwards.

What should happen is that the G7 or G20 or whatever should set a cap on executive pay at say 30 times the lowest paid person in the company.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j7_5mWmhO-Y/T5r9xvZioxI/AAAAAAAAEsk/LKj4sqn1FrQ/s1600/CEOSalary1965-2004.jpg

[Zing!]

I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.

Heh heh... we could easily quote the rest of this bit and it would make as much sense as the unions being responsible for the downfall of the Twinkie.

In fact, maybe we should. Big Bad Brian can play the part of Arthur...

[ELVIS]

but what about the folks who live in one of those small towns gutted by WalMart. Kinda hard to shop somewhere else when all the "somewhere elses" were driven out of business.

Bottom line is this country simply worked better when the rich had incentives to make life better for the people who actually made their money, and not just for themselves.

That's a bunch of bullshit...

[ZahZoo]

The whole fire your bank thing is still fresh in my memory from when people didn't like getting charged fees so they closed their accounts and took their business elsewhere, resulting in many banks to change their fee policies.

Yeah that was somewhat effective... although the banks just quietly shifted fees elsewhere. I've stuck with my credit union in Texas for over 20 years. Opened and closed a bunch of local bank accounts based on where I've moved around as soon as they start fee games.

I do find a trend lately very disturbing and just utterly, obnoxious arrogance... Banks building branch offices that are starting to rival huge churches with bold architecture that stands out from everything surrounding it... like some temple of fucking greed. Makes little sense... majority of banking has shifted to electronic transactions. There's very few reasons to actually physically visit a bank frequently beyond the ATM... and with debit cards, smart phones and auto-deposit the ATM is heading the same direction as pay-phones.

So what I don't get is why the capital investment in real estate, lavish brick and mortar when those profits can be sucked up even deeper?

[BigBadBrian]

Something went seriously wrong from the 80s onwards.

What should happen is that the G7 or G20 or whatever should set a cap on executive pay at say 30 times the lowest paid person in the company.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j7_5mWmhO-Y/T5r9xvZioxI/AAAAAAAAEsk/LKj4sqn1FrQ/s1600/CEOSalary1965-2004.jpg

Interesting chart. CEO Pay went up the most from 1995 to 2000. Hmmm. Refresh my memory: who was POTUS then?

[FORD]

Interesting chart. CEO Pay went up the most from 1995 to 2000. Hmmm. Refresh my memory: who was POTUS then?

It also was the time of the so-called "dot com bubble" and the rise of the Internet, which created a lot of new businesses, which intitially made money and paid their CEO's. Which probably had more to do with it than who was President at the time.

But the taxes paid by all over those overpaid CEO's certainly helped Bill leave office with a surplus, right?

[jhale667]

It also was the time of the so-called "dot com bubble" and the rise of the Internet, which created a lot of new businesses, which intitially made money and paid their CEO's. Which probably had more to do with it than who was President at the time.

But the taxes paid by all over those overpaid CEO's certainly helped Bill leave office with a surplus, right?

You beat me to it... Aw, poor wittle Brie thought he had a point there for a second...:lmao:

[BigBadBrian]

It also was the time of the so-called "dot com bubble" and the rise of the Internet, which created a lot of new businesses, which intitially made money and paid their CEO's. Which probably had more to do with it than who was President at the time.

But the taxes paid by all over those overpaid CEO's certainly helped Bill leave office with a surplus, right?

After Gingrich pulled Clinton's ass in from the Far Left at the bargaining table and made him a Centrist. :gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

You beat me to it... Aw, poor wittle Brie thought he had a point there for a second...:lmao:

Shut up, Kristy. :fighting0056:

[FORD]

After Gingrich pulled Clinton's ass in from the Far Left at the bargaining table and made him a Centrist. :gulp:

Clinton was never "Far Left". He was the DLC poster boy from day one. Unfortunately :(

[Nickdfresh]

After Gingrich pulled Clinton's ass in from the Far Left at the bargaining table and made him a Centrist. :gulp:

That hypocrite scumbag Gingrich was more interested in pulling Clinton's cock, while Newt was busy cheating on his wife...

[ZahZoo]

It also was the time of the so-called "dot com bubble" and the rise of the Internet, which created a lot of new businesses, which intitially made money and paid their CEO's. Which probably had more to do with it than who was President at the time.

But the taxes paid by all over those overpaid CEO's certainly helped Bill leave office with a surplus, right?

There was the bubble as venture capitalists pumped a lot of investment dollars into internet development... But there was a bigger economic driver during 95-00.

Capital investment into hardware and software upgrades preparing for Y2K (Year 2000) to correct the oversight that hard-coded date processing which was fine as long as you didn't go calculating past 1999. There was a huge out-lay across all business sectors for this... then the short term depreciation bubble for capitalization sustained tax rolls for about at year or so past 2000. Then companies clammed up and didn't need to invest with all the new hardware and upgraded software in-house.

[FORD]

There was the bubble as venture capitalists pumped a lot of investment dollars into internet development... But there was a bigger economic driver during 95-00.

Capital investment into hardware and software upgrades preparing for Y2K (Year 2000) to correct the oversight that hard-coded date processing which was fine as long as you didn't go calculating past 1999. There was a huge out-lay across all business sectors for this... then the short term depreciation bubble for capitalization sustained tax rolls for about at year or so past 2000. Then companies clammed up and didn't need to invest with all the new hardware and upgraded software in-house.

Well.... at least the smart companies did that ahead of time. Some others weren't so smart about it. There was a local insurance company here... they had been around for years. My dad worked for them in the late 50s or early 60s... my older sister worked for them for a while... it was literally a local institution for decades. A friend of mine was working there in the early 1990s, and even though he wasn't actually working in the IT department, he was knowledgable enough about computers to be aware of the whole Y2K two digit mainframe coding issue, so he warned his bosses about it. They agreed with him, but kept putting it off. By the time they got around to finally dealing with the problem in 1998, they found that it would cost so much to replace their entire systems at that point, that it would actually be cheaper to close the office and ship off all the accounts to an affliliate in St. Louis or somewhere like that.

And just like that..... poor planning killed a local institution... even before Y2K actually could.

[SunisinuS]

Don't Ho o's have their own Union?


:yo:

[FORD]

Don't Ho o's have their own Union?


:yo:

United Sex Workers of America Local #69, maybe??

[LoungeMachine]

I'm sorry, but you are not going to pay the CEO of a corporation anything close to what you get paid as a stock boy, Lounge. You should've continued on in school like your parents told you to if you wanted a better job.

Nice dodge and projection...

:gulp:

You're getting slapped around the room by everyone in this thread.

Where's MusicmANN when you need him/her?

[BigBadBrian]

Nice dodge and projection...

:gulp:

You're getting slapped around the room by everyone in this thread.


Certainly not by you liberals. I always beat you like a redheaded stepchild, Bamboo boy.

[jhale667]

Certainly not by you liberals. I always beat you like a redheaded stepchild, Bamboo boy.



Riiiight. And then you wake up and start crying when you realize you were dreaming...AGAIN. :biggrin:

[BigBadBrian]

Riiiight. And then you wake up and start crying when you realize you were dreaming...AGAIN. :biggrin:

Kristy, I told you to shut up, now DO IT!!! :fighting0056:

[jhale667]

I FAIL at FAILING.


We know. Now fuck off.

[Kristy]

Kristy, I told you to shut up, now DO IT!!! :fighting0056:

You know you're like the monkey at the petting zoo who instead off throwing throwing feces at people, you just rub them all over yourself. Time and time again.